August 6, 2025 • 27 mins
Dan Abrams didn’t launch Flylow Gear with a business plan, he started with a vision to live life on his own terms. On this 195th episode of the E-Comm Show, Andrew Maff interviews Dan Abrams President and Co-founder of Flylow.
You’ll hear how Flylow stayed true to its roots while evolving from a scrappy DTC brand just trying to break even into a wholesale champion—and how they navigated that shift without sacrificing control. Dan also breaks down why fashion is more regional than most marketers think, how authenticity in marketing doesn’t always need a mission statement, and why quality and function will always sell (especially in the mountains).
Whether you're scaling wholesale, thinking about fulfillment solutions, or just want a masterclass in staying authentic while growing fast—this episode is your jam.
What You’ll Learn:
- Why Flylow never needed a “defined” mission to stay authentic
- How they transitioned from 95% DTC to owning wholesale
- The smart logistics move that helped them scale without blowing up operations
- What most marketers get wrong about how people buy outdoor fashion
- Why word of mouth still wins—if your product can back it up
Watch the full episode below, or visit TheEcommShow.com for more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dan Abrams (00:00):
You could say we didn't really know what we were
(00:05):
doing, or you could say that itwas an organic approach.
Andrew Maff (00:08):
Welcome to the E comm Show podcast. I'm your
host. Andrew MAFF, owner andfounder of blue tusker, from
groundbreaking industry updatesto success stories and
strategies, get to know the insand outs of the e Commerce
Industry, from top leaders inthe space. Let's get into it.
Hello everyone, and welcome toanother episode of the E comm
show. As usual. I am your host,Andrew MAFF, and today I am
(00:29):
joined by the amazing DanAbrams, who is the president and
co founder over at fly low gear.
Dan, how you doing, buddy? Youready for a good show?
Dan Abrams (00:36):
I'm doing good.
Thanks for having me!
Andrew Maff (00:38):
Beautiful. I am very excited to have you on the
Dan Abrams (00:38):
Right on. Uh, well, I always kind of wanted to
show. Really cool product line,amazing story in the background.
I know you've got a ton ofexperience in the space and very
interested to hear a lot of thestory, but I was like, kind of
(01:00):
starting these off prettystereotypically, give you the
floor and just tell us a littlebit about how you got started,
where you're at in your career,and obviously more about Flylow
figure out a way to live life onmy own terms, I guess, is the
best way to say it. Lookingback, I always thought about,
you know, different businesses Icould start, ways that I could
have a balance in life, I guess,and Flylow just happened be the
(01:21):
one that worked out. I, youknow, I played music for a while
and ran bands. I bartended andthen started some little
fledgling, little projects onthe side that didn't work out.
But eventually, this idea that Ihad with my group of friends
from college and we went toschool up in the late 90s, in in
(01:42):
the Pacific Northwest, this ideaof making mountaineering quality
equipment for skiing andsnowboarding, you know, clothing
in particular, it has workedout. It's kind of crazy.
Andrew Maff (01:54):
That's good. What did you see in the market,
right? Like, mountaineeringquality, like, What do you mean
by that, like, if I'm, if I'mcompletely new to it, and I'm
thinking of, like, thePatagonias and stuff of the
world, like, where did they fallflat? That you were like, Okay,
here's, here's the the area thatwe need to focus on.
Dan Abrams (02:12):
Yeah, you know, a lot of a lot of business is
timing and, you know, andignorance is bliss, being
willing to challenge companieslike Marmot and Patagonia and
the North Face. But you know, atthat time, snowboarding was
cool.Mountaineering apparel madethe best apparel, which was
(02:32):
light and somewhat durable. Andthen skiing was really coming
from ski fashion and apparel wascoming from a ski race
background, which meant that itwas designed to cover up, you
know, speed suits, warm ups andthen be taken off. You know, if
you're talking about, like thepinnacle of skiing at that time,
(02:56):
this idea of backcountry skiingwas really, you know, like a
subculture, a really smallsubculture. There was steep
skiing and the North Face steeptech stuff that was out there,
but it really wasn't what wewanted. Andgoing skiing at
crystal mountain, which isoutside of Seattle and has this
kind of funky open gate policy,where they have kind of a hybrid
(03:20):
inbounds, out of bounds,backcountry situation where you
go through these, theseavalanche gates, um, into the
south back, and you go for theseboot packs, and you climb the
silver King, and you ski and youget powder. And what we realized
was that when we were climbingwith our skis on our shoulders
or on our back. The equipmentthat we had, this ski stuff,
(03:45):
really wasn't suited to go for aboot pack, and so you'd get to
the top, you'd be just coveredin sweat, and especially in the
Pacific Northwest, like moistureis what is the downfall of all
climbers and skiers there. Onceyou're wet, you're cold. So we
had to figure out how to staydry. We started looking into
wearing mountaineer gear. Andmountaineer gear was light. They
(04:07):
were the only ones using what wecall a three layer fabric. So
when you pick up a waterproofgarment and it's just it looks
like one sheet of fabric, that'sactually what we consider three
layers, because you have theouter fabric that's like
textured and has the color. Andthen there's your membrane, like
your Gore Tex, or intuitive is,you know, our proprietary and
(04:28):
then there'll be a third layerthat protects that waterproof
membrane from you. And what werealize is that waterproof is
easy. A Ziploc bag iswaterproof, but breathability is
what you're paying for. And sowe we started taking out the
mountaineering stuff, and whatwe realized is that it was light
and tight. You had to stretch itto fit over your legs, so the
(04:53):
fabric became taught, and thestuff just didn't last for what
we were doing, because it wasn'tdesigned to climb a mountain and
ski down it with four sharpedges, and we started using the
great warranty programs, and wewere dirtbag, you know, college
kids. And eventually I had thisidea, what if we mashed it up?
(05:13):
What if we, you know, made amountaineering pant in a
mountaineering factory that madeit fit like a ski pant, so that
it actually fit over your boots.
Let's make it as cool as asnowboard pant, um, and, you
know, like, and take care of thesnowboarders. And then, okay,
let's just go ahead and make itburlier than anything else that
(05:35):
anybody else has ever seen. Andmind you, like I didn't know how
to make clothes, so I erred onthe side of ultra durable
fabrics, thick seam tape thatwasn't going to come undone. And
then we added inner and outerthigh vents, which we call cross
flow venting, so that you couldactually cool yourself down and
not sweat out all of your baselayers on the way up. And then
(05:58):
you could shut it all down, andyou could ski down at 4050,
miles an hour through powder andhave it be waterproof. And what
wound up happening was a uniqueproduct that people thought was
crazy. It was different and andit's how we got here today.
Andrew Maff (06:16):
It's pretty cool you went through all that trial
and error to figure out,obviously, what was clearly
missing, especially as that, uh,starting to get more and more
popular. Did you bootstrap thewhole thing, or did you end up
getting investment, at least inthe early days?
Dan Abrams (06:32):
Um, I bootstrapped the whole thing so I see I
started out it was like, it waslike the easy, it was the early
2000s and I was bartending, andI, you know, started, started
working in the restaurant, youknow, like as a busboy. Within
(06:52):
two years, I was the barmanager, which meant I
controlled the schedule, whichmeant I controlled the money,
and I was pretty good at that,and I made good money, probably
about 70 grand a year. Didn'tdeclare all of it, but I paid
back my taxes. Don't worry.
Flylow covers me pretty goodthese days, or covers, you know,
my liabilities and and then Ialso use credit cards. So this
(07:15):
was, you know, 2005, 2006 thisis the peak of subprime
mortgages, which I was able toget one, and I was able to buy a
house with zero down, which wasamazing. And then I was able to
call Chase Manhattan and theUnited mileage PLUS credit
cards. And I got two, and theygave me $60,000 lines of credit
(07:35):
on both of them with conveniencechecks, which back then the
convenience check said minimum3% maximum $175 transaction fee
to get a nine month loan for2.9% or sometimes it would be 0%
for six months, and that's all Ineeded. Were these bridge loan.
(07:59):
So eventually I would write aconvenience check to myself from
both of them, and then I'd add$120,000 of low interest debt
bartending money to pay theminimum payments. And I did, you
know, eventually start raisingcapital using promissory notes,
(08:20):
which was, you know, you know,borrowing money from friends and
family. I actually got my dad tolend me 20 grand when I started,
and under his breath, he said,Well, here's a lesson in
squandering $20,000 and I paidhim back. Now, I know, I know I
paid him back in three yearswith interest, and he was blown
(08:40):
away. So yeah, that's how I didit. And then eventually, when I
needed more cash, I invited mycollege buddy Greg Steen, co
founder, and he leftJackson,Wyoming and came down to
Denver to help really get Flylowoff the ground. And he was
waiting tables selling nicebottles of wine, and I was
(09:01):
bartending, and you know, weagreed to all to take the same
amount of money, the samesalary, which was nothing for
about four or five years, and wegot the company going.
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Andrew Maff (09:46):
That's amazing.
That's always, it's always sucha cool story. When you hear
about the like, the trueentrepreneurial kind of like
effort that you have to put intoit, where it's you're
bootstrapping it, and you'regoing years on end with no
salary, and, you know, you cameup with a cool idea that you're
just going to take a swing andhope that it works out, and
obviously now, like you guyshave your eight figure brand, I
mean, that's not that's not easyto do, especially in the apparel
(10:08):
space, which is a nightmare,even though, obviously you have
a very clear differentiator,like from a functionality
standpoint, it's still reallyhard to do in apparel. So what,
what was like the from amarketing perspective, what was
the move there? I would imaginethat that audience probably
really resonates with theproduct line. But like, what do
you do to kind of get or whatdid you do to get involved in
(10:29):
that audience to kind of keepeverything scaling up as you've
been?
Dan Abrams (10:35):
You could say we didn't really know what we were
doing, or you could say that itwas an organic approach. But I
think that authenticity with themarketing has always been there,
that we were always telling ourstory, and we didn't really know
we didn't need to have itdefined, what our mission
statement was and and how wewere going to market. We were
(11:00):
just out there guerrillamarketing. I had T shirts in my
pocket. I went to every moviepremiere I could, and would
pirate those and and getstickers out. And eventually, I
found that it was really hard tosell the brand to sales reps at
first, but I could sell it tomedia, and then I could sell it
(11:23):
to stores. I could sell it tostore owners in particular. And
I have prescribed to thewholesale marketing method. I
firmly believe in independentwholesale as the best marketing
that you can do, and that weshould all support independent
brick and mortar wholesale, um,it gets the fabric in the hands
and and it allows people to tryit on. It's the most
(11:45):
environmentally sustainablebecause we send large shipments
via ground to the stores, andthere's no returns. There's no
shipping of returns. And indoing so, I was able to get the
core, the best skiers andsnowboarders in the industry to
wear our stuff, because theywere the people working in the
stores. They're the people thatthat are in their post grad ski
(12:08):
bum years, and they're going tobe wearing the stuff. And then
when they graduate from, youknow, like, either they make it
in a ski town or they have toleave the ski town, which was my
scenario. I only lasted inJackson Hole for nine months
before I blew my knee out, movedback to my mom's house, started
bartending and started Flylow.
And I'm very thankful that Ihurt my knee, um, and that I
(12:29):
didn't see caretakers in myroommates in Jackson. But you
know, most of those people thatwould get that would start
wearing Flylow, they would then,then go back to the city to
pursue a career, so thathopefully they could get back to
the mountains. And what werealized was that eventually I
hired some, I think of them asBig Brother, Big Sisters, some
(12:53):
people that used to work atlarger companies, but didn't
want to work in a city. Theywanted to be remote, and I
allowed them to be remote. Andone of them was this guy, Jeff
Wagaman, and I still work withhim. And he stayed in Jackson
Hole after cloudvale, a former,you know, big brother ski
clothing company had been sold.
(13:13):
And he actually did a deep diveinto marketing, into what the
message is that Flylow does,because I couldn't answer the
question then, but now I can,because Jeff filtered it down
and he realized afterinterviewing 100 Flylow
customers, that the common trendis that we all want to live life
(13:34):
on our own terms. We all havebuilt a life where we don't
emphasize a huge amount ofwealth, but we want security. We
want to be able to take time offto go ski on a powder day. We
want to be able to go to Verbierif we want to go for a big ski
trip that year. But we're notlooking for multiple homes, and
(13:54):
we're not looking for, you know,we don't place the emphasis on,
you know, the badge that's on,you know, the front of our car,
it's experience. It's owning ourown time. And so in the end, you
know, that's what we figuredout, is that our mission
statement is to inspire peopleto live a life on their own
terms in the mountains. Andwhether it's when you vacation
(14:15):
in the mountains, or you haveyour heart is and where you like
to spend your time is in themountains, or you live up here,
you know, we're here and we'repart of your community, and
Flylow really is just areflection of that community.
Andrew Maff (14:27):
Yeah. I mean, it makes a ton of sense. I
definitely agree the wholesalemarketing side, like, especially
for an audience like yours,like, typically, they're
shopping in those more mom andpop stores, which is fantastic.
Sometimes you have other apparelbrands, which it's a lot more
difficult because their audienceis only shopping in, like, more
of the big box stores, which is,to your point, is kind of a
(14:49):
nightmare. What about from likea digital perspective, it sounds
like you're crushing it fromlike a word of mouth
perspective, everyone is on themountain. They're all talking
about it. It eventually picks upsteam. You get that word of
mouth going. But what aboutanything from a digital
perspective. Do you lean in onthose professionals that you've
worked with from like, aninfluencer perspective, or is it
more of like standardadvertising approach, like, what
(15:11):
is that working for you?
Dan Abrams (15:13):
I think, well, that to tell the story of our E comm
business when we first started,you know, we were 95% direct to
consumer, because no one knewwho we were. We had a couple
stores. We were just barelytrying to break even every year
now yo. And then fast forward 10years into it, where we become
(15:35):
the champion of wholesale. Andthese larger vendors are really
hard to deal with they, theybully you. And also, if you're,
like, maybe a mom and pop storethat isn't the best credit you
know, like you may be our creditrisk, then, like, that was an
opportunity for us to get intothose stores and take that risk.
And sometimes it bit me in thebutt. So eventually we became
(15:58):
95% wholesale and 5% direct toconsumer, which didn't have the
right margin, and we startedfighting the fight to become,
you know, to be become morerobust in Ecomm. And now what
we're seeing is that brick andmortar wholesale continues to
grow for us, and that largeronline players are struggling.
(16:22):
They are struggling to competewith, I think, the storytelling
that we do, you know, like thatwe're so focused on our brand,
they can't keep the breadth ofinventory that we have when it
comes to shorts and talls,larger sizes, all the colors and
stuff and and so forth. So I'mwe're seeing Flylow gear.com
(16:47):
become, you know, the mostprominent online store. And
that's a change from thebeginning of the pandemic, if
you will. And the way we do thatis, you know, yes, we use our
influencers. We believe in allthose pros the ski patrol, the
guides are the most influential,whether you're part of the guide
(17:08):
group or you just see the guideand our athletes. And then we
also participate in performancemarketing, which we actually
didn't do until three years ago,the outdoor industry. You know,
when the outdoor industry hasgone through this, this cycle of
pandemic craziness, whereeverybody canceled their orders
(17:30):
at the beginning, and then thatfall of 2020 there was a bum
rush of sales people couldn'tget enough. So then in 2021 we
make enough, and in 2022 therewas too much inventory. So by
2023 we're just trying to getrid of inventory. 2024 excess
inventory, and now we've resetthe deck. Well, what that
(17:52):
allowed us to do was it gave usthe excess inventory from
canceled big box store orders toactually justify doing the
performance marketing, and we'reslaying it. And the and the
performance marketing is goodfor supporting that, the
wholesalers, the independentwholesalers, because it's the
(18:13):
print magazines, have gone away.
So it's our only way to do it.
And we really try to focus noton like, on like, Hey, we're on
sale. And actually, you'll see alot of other brands right now
are, whether they're direct toconsumer only, or you'll like or
they have a wholesale mix, theyare going on sale at the
(18:34):
beginning of the summer, andthey're going on sale in
November, even if it's 20 off,like they are telling that
messaging and that does no goodfor your independent brick and
mortar. And we do not do that.
We stay full price untilFebruary 15 every year, and and
I think that our customers, theyrespect it, or they just have to
(18:55):
deal with it because, you know,like, because we're not, we're
too small of a company. We'restill bootstrapped, and we're
not looking to delegitimize thebrand by making excess
inventory, making inventory thatwould go to close out. So it all
plays into the mix.
Andrew Maff (19:14):
You're, you know, to your point of kind of going
more DTC now and growing the Ecommerce side. But obviously you
haven't given up on yourwholesale, your retail
opportunities, I would imagineoperationally, that's got to be
still a bit of a challenge,right? Because you've got now
traditional just D2C, ordersgoing out, but then you also
have your larger wholesale andretail orders going on, am I
right?
Dan Abrams (19:34):
Yep, yep. It's created an interesting mix.
Andrew Maff (19:39):
Yeah
Dan Abrams (19:40):
We have owned our own fulfillment in Denver for
years, and it got to the pointin the, you know, at the
beginning of the pandemic, whenlarger orders coming in, and we
doubled in size in in two, threeyears, we came up with a
creative solution, where weoutsourced our wholesale channel
(20:04):
to a three PL, and we use NRI,and they're great. We love NRI
because they are based inKamloops, Canada, in British
Columbia, so that, but then mostof their businesses outside of
LA, so we can have one three PLthat covers us in Canada and in
the United States. And then weactually just went in with their
(20:26):
UK distribution center so thatwe can take care of distributors
without bringing that stuff intothe United States or Canada
first. So it just goes to an EUmember, and then we can disperse
there. And then we've beenfulfilling, and to this date,
are still fulfilling our websiteorders ourselves.
Andrew Maff (20:45):
Interesting. That's a, yeah, I can imagine. It's,
it's a challenge with all that,those different areas going on.
And are you shipping overseas aswell? Do you have an audience in
Europe, anywhere else?
Dan Abrams (20:57):
We we were, but it wasn't enough business to
justify it. And as things gotbigger, and, you know, like and
things get more complicated, wedecided we're focused on the
United States and on Canada. Wedo have distribution in
Australia and New Zealand, andat times we've had distribution
(21:20):
in Italy and Japan, but for now,we're focused on North America.
And you know, honestly, when Ilook around at Europe and the
European market, I draw a lot ofinspiration from the brands that
are there, that don't come here.
And it makes me think about howregional fashion is and how
there are these beautiful brandslike Sweet Protection and Peak
(21:41):
Performance, Jack Wolfskin me aEIder, the list goes on of all
these European brands, theydon't, they don't really come to
the US market. And now thatwe're in this new tariff
regimewhere US manufacturersneed to get out of China,
because we don't know what'shappening, and even the current
tariffs that are in place arejust making it impossible, you
(22:03):
know, basically US brands, oranybody that wants to sell in
theUS, needs to manufactureoutside of China, which creates
a vacuum of amazing, good peoplethat make great product in
China. And so I see it as like afurther separation, where these
European brands, they should beproducing in China, I would, if
(22:24):
I could, and then, but thatmeans that they're not going to
sell that inventory here, whichis going to create another
vacuum. So, you know, like theAmerican market really has to
look to American brands.
Andrew Maff (22:39):
Interesting. I never thought of that. What's
okay? So obviously, stayingfocused on the States and
Canada. What's the plan forgrowth from here? Is it product
line expansion? Obviously, somebrands, they'd make, especially
apparel brands, they makebigger, bigger strategic moves,
like getting into licensing andthings like that. Like, what's
your thought on what the nextbig play is?
Dan Abrams (23:00):
I think, you know, like, from the origins of our
brand, like, one of the reasonswhy we didn't get, you know,
like, kind of that traditionalseed round of funding after
years of, you know, like usingcredit cards and bartending,
because eventually that thatmoney did go away in 2008 when
the financial crisis hit, thecredit crunch hit, those awesome
(23:22):
termswere gone, and so westarted raising money in a more
traditional way, and thateconomic slowdown allowed us to
organically grow, and weorganically grew until we were a
player, and then the pandemicjust blew us up and doubled us
(23:43):
well, now we're back to thatorganic growth. And so that's
one thing, is that we're lookingto just make sure that we have
this solid business at eightfigures, you know, like that
supports our employees jobs,that we don't have to do
layoffs. And so we're not goingto quote, unquote, swing for the
fence. That being said, this isour 20th year, you know, 2005 to
(24:08):
2025 we are now coming out withour first Gore Tex product. We
have established ourselves asmaking the bestpants and bibs in
the market. And Gore Tex wantedtheir fabric in our bibs, and we
wanted their fabric in our bibs.
And so, kind of like chocolateand peanut butter, we got a
pretty sweet product coming outthis year, and I think that
(24:31):
might be the future. Is like,you know, now that we, you know,
like, not to put it in your carracing Formula One terms, but
now that we have the Ferrariengine, you know that all of our
competitors, whether it'sArcteryx or Patagonia or North
Face, are playing with like, youknow, now we're just going to
use the engine. We're going todo it our way, um, and it's
(24:52):
really fun to see. We've alreadydone a wholesale sell in
starting last December. And wealready know that it's
successful. And I just can'twait for people to get the
opportunity, especially, youknow where we started in the
Pacific Northwest, or my rootsare in New England, these wet
places, and now I live in Tahoe,like they're really going to
(25:14):
benefit from having Flylowdurability, Flylow thoughtful
design, with gore tex membraneand and then when you're taking
it to the pinnacle of yoursport, no matter where you are,
whether you're in the dryColorado Rockies, you're gonna
appreciate having, you know,that durability and that Gore
(25:35):
guarantee as well to make youeven more confident in Flylow.
So, you know, we have onlyscratched the surface of the
core ski market, and I thinkthere's a lot of room for us to
consume market shareas we go andyou know, we're still small and
nimble. We can change we canchange our designs faster than
anybody else. So we will do soand represent our community.
Andrew Maff (26:01):
It's very cool, man. I obviously really
appreciate the story. It'salways really cool for me to be
able to, like, interview peoplelike yourself, and then, like, a
year, two, three years from now,look back at this podcast and
see where you guys have gone andthe growth, and be like, Man,
that was his plan, and he didit. So it's very cool. I really
appreciate it. Obviously, I wantto thank you for being on the
(26:22):
show. I'd love to give you thefloor and let everyone know
where they can find out moreabout you. And, of course, more
about Flylow
Dan Abrams (26:26):
Hey, it's not about me, it's about the Flylow
community. So go toflylowgear.com, you know, check
out the story. Check out, youknow, like the product, and then
use the dealer locator and find,if you can find a local brick
and mortar, and goin there andask the ask the shop kids why
they like Flylow, yo, and andsupport them. We are channel
(26:50):
agnostic. We don't care whereyou get it. We just, we just
want you to have a good time andlive life on your own terms.
Andrew Maff (26:57):
Love it. Dan, thank you so much for being on the
show. Obviously, everyone thattuned in, thank you as well.
Please make sure you do theusual thing, rate review,
subscribe all that fun stuff andwhichever podcast platform you
prefer, or head over to theecommshow.com to check out all of
our previous episodes. But asusual, thank you all for joining
us. See you all next time. Havea good one!
Narrator (27:18):
Thank you for tuning in to the Ecomm show. Head over
to Ecommshow.com to subscribe onyour favorite podcast platform
or on the BlueTusker YouTubechannel. The Ecomm show is
brought to you by Bluetusker, afull service digital marketing
company specifically for Ecommerce sellers looking to
accelerate their growth. Go tobluetuskr.com now for more
(27:40):
information, make sure to tunein next week for another amazing
episode of the E comm show!
You could say we didn't really know what we were
(00:05):
doing, or you could say that itwas an organic approach.
Andrew Maff (00:08):
Welcome to the E comm Show podcast. I'm your
host. Andrew MAFF, owner andfounder of blue tusker, from
groundbreaking industry updatesto success stories and
strategies, get to know the insand outs of the e Commerce
Industry, from top leaders inthe space. Let's get into it.
Hello everyone, and welcome toanother episode of the E comm
show. As usual. I am your host,Andrew MAFF, and today I am
(00:29):
joined by the amazing DanAbrams, who is the president and
co founder over at fly low gear.
Dan, how you doing, buddy? Youready for a good show?
Dan Abrams (00:36):
I'm doing good.
Thanks for having me!
Andrew Maff (00:38):
Beautiful. I am very excited to have you on the
Dan Abrams (00:38):
Right on. Uh, well, I always kind of wanted to
show. Really cool product line,amazing story in the background.
I know you've got a ton ofexperience in the space and very
interested to hear a lot of thestory, but I was like, kind of
(01:00):
starting these off prettystereotypically, give you the
floor and just tell us a littlebit about how you got started,
where you're at in your career,and obviously more about Flylow
figure out a way to live life onmy own terms, I guess, is the
best way to say it. Lookingback, I always thought about,
you know, different businesses Icould start, ways that I could
have a balance in life, I guess,and Flylow just happened be the
(01:21):
one that worked out. I, youknow, I played music for a while
and ran bands. I bartended andthen started some little
fledgling, little projects onthe side that didn't work out.
But eventually, this idea that Ihad with my group of friends
from college and we went toschool up in the late 90s, in in
(01:42):
the Pacific Northwest, this ideaof making mountaineering quality
equipment for skiing andsnowboarding, you know, clothing
in particular, it has workedout. It's kind of crazy.
Andrew Maff (01:54):
That's good. What did you see in the market,
right? Like, mountaineeringquality, like, What do you mean
by that, like, if I'm, if I'mcompletely new to it, and I'm
thinking of, like, thePatagonias and stuff of the
world, like, where did they fallflat? That you were like, Okay,
here's, here's the the area thatwe need to focus on.
Dan Abrams (02:12):
Yeah, you know, a lot of a lot of business is
timing and, you know, andignorance is bliss, being
willing to challenge companieslike Marmot and Patagonia and
the North Face. But you know, atthat time, snowboarding was
cool.Mountaineering apparel madethe best apparel, which was
(02:32):
light and somewhat durable. Andthen skiing was really coming
from ski fashion and apparel wascoming from a ski race
background, which meant that itwas designed to cover up, you
know, speed suits, warm ups andthen be taken off. You know, if
you're talking about, like thepinnacle of skiing at that time,
(02:56):
this idea of backcountry skiingwas really, you know, like a
subculture, a really smallsubculture. There was steep
skiing and the North Face steeptech stuff that was out there,
but it really wasn't what wewanted. Andgoing skiing at
crystal mountain, which isoutside of Seattle and has this
kind of funky open gate policy,where they have kind of a hybrid
(03:20):
inbounds, out of bounds,backcountry situation where you
go through these, theseavalanche gates, um, into the
south back, and you go for theseboot packs, and you climb the
silver King, and you ski and youget powder. And what we realized
was that when we were climbingwith our skis on our shoulders
or on our back. The equipmentthat we had, this ski stuff,
(03:45):
really wasn't suited to go for aboot pack, and so you'd get to
the top, you'd be just coveredin sweat, and especially in the
Pacific Northwest, like moistureis what is the downfall of all
climbers and skiers there. Onceyou're wet, you're cold. So we
had to figure out how to staydry. We started looking into
wearing mountaineer gear. Andmountaineer gear was light. They
(04:07):
were the only ones using what wecall a three layer fabric. So
when you pick up a waterproofgarment and it's just it looks
like one sheet of fabric, that'sactually what we consider three
layers, because you have theouter fabric that's like
textured and has the color. Andthen there's your membrane, like
your Gore Tex, or intuitive is,you know, our proprietary and
(04:28):
then there'll be a third layerthat protects that waterproof
membrane from you. And what werealize is that waterproof is
easy. A Ziploc bag iswaterproof, but breathability is
what you're paying for. And sowe we started taking out the
mountaineering stuff, and whatwe realized is that it was light
and tight. You had to stretch itto fit over your legs, so the
(04:53):
fabric became taught, and thestuff just didn't last for what
we were doing, because it wasn'tdesigned to climb a mountain and
ski down it with four sharpedges, and we started using the
great warranty programs, and wewere dirtbag, you know, college
kids. And eventually I had thisidea, what if we mashed it up?
(05:13):
What if we, you know, made amountaineering pant in a
mountaineering factory that madeit fit like a ski pant, so that
it actually fit over your boots.
Let's make it as cool as asnowboard pant, um, and, you
know, like, and take care of thesnowboarders. And then, okay,
let's just go ahead and make itburlier than anything else that
(05:35):
anybody else has ever seen. Andmind you, like I didn't know how
to make clothes, so I erred onthe side of ultra durable
fabrics, thick seam tape thatwasn't going to come undone. And
then we added inner and outerthigh vents, which we call cross
flow venting, so that you couldactually cool yourself down and
not sweat out all of your baselayers on the way up. And then
(05:58):
you could shut it all down, andyou could ski down at 4050,
miles an hour through powder andhave it be waterproof. And what
wound up happening was a uniqueproduct that people thought was
crazy. It was different and andit's how we got here today.
Andrew Maff (06:16):
It's pretty cool you went through all that trial
and error to figure out,obviously, what was clearly
missing, especially as that, uh,starting to get more and more
popular. Did you bootstrap thewhole thing, or did you end up
getting investment, at least inthe early days?
Dan Abrams (06:32):
Um, I bootstrapped the whole thing so I see I
started out it was like, it waslike the easy, it was the early
2000s and I was bartending, andI, you know, started, started
working in the restaurant, youknow, like as a busboy. Within
(06:52):
two years, I was the barmanager, which meant I
controlled the schedule, whichmeant I controlled the money,
and I was pretty good at that,and I made good money, probably
about 70 grand a year. Didn'tdeclare all of it, but I paid
back my taxes. Don't worry.
Flylow covers me pretty goodthese days, or covers, you know,
my liabilities and and then Ialso use credit cards. So this
(07:15):
was, you know, 2005, 2006 thisis the peak of subprime
mortgages, which I was able toget one, and I was able to buy a
house with zero down, which wasamazing. And then I was able to
call Chase Manhattan and theUnited mileage PLUS credit
cards. And I got two, and theygave me $60,000 lines of credit
(07:35):
on both of them with conveniencechecks, which back then the
convenience check said minimum3% maximum $175 transaction fee
to get a nine month loan for2.9% or sometimes it would be 0%
for six months, and that's all Ineeded. Were these bridge loan.
(07:59):
So eventually I would write aconvenience check to myself from
both of them, and then I'd add$120,000 of low interest debt
bartending money to pay theminimum payments. And I did, you
know, eventually start raisingcapital using promissory notes,
(08:20):
which was, you know, you know,borrowing money from friends and
family. I actually got my dad tolend me 20 grand when I started,
and under his breath, he said,Well, here's a lesson in
squandering $20,000 and I paidhim back. Now, I know, I know I
paid him back in three yearswith interest, and he was blown
(08:40):
away. So yeah, that's how I didit. And then eventually, when I
needed more cash, I invited mycollege buddy Greg Steen, co
founder, and he leftJackson,Wyoming and came down to
Denver to help really get Flylowoff the ground. And he was
waiting tables selling nicebottles of wine, and I was
(09:01):
bartending, and you know, weagreed to all to take the same
amount of money, the samesalary, which was nothing for
about four or five years, and wegot the company going.
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(09:35):
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Andrew Maff (09:46):
That's amazing.
That's always, it's always sucha cool story. When you hear
about the like, the trueentrepreneurial kind of like
effort that you have to put intoit, where it's you're
bootstrapping it, and you'regoing years on end with no
salary, and, you know, you cameup with a cool idea that you're
just going to take a swing andhope that it works out, and
obviously now, like you guyshave your eight figure brand, I
mean, that's not that's not easyto do, especially in the apparel
(10:08):
space, which is a nightmare,even though, obviously you have
a very clear differentiator,like from a functionality
standpoint, it's still reallyhard to do in apparel. So what,
what was like the from amarketing perspective, what was
the move there? I would imaginethat that audience probably
really resonates with theproduct line. But like, what do
you do to kind of get or whatdid you do to get involved in
(10:29):
that audience to kind of keepeverything scaling up as you've
been?
Dan Abrams (10:35):
You could say we didn't really know what we were
doing, or you could say that itwas an organic approach. But I
think that authenticity with themarketing has always been there,
that we were always telling ourstory, and we didn't really know
we didn't need to have itdefined, what our mission
statement was and and how wewere going to market. We were
(11:00):
just out there guerrillamarketing. I had T shirts in my
pocket. I went to every moviepremiere I could, and would
pirate those and and getstickers out. And eventually, I
found that it was really hard tosell the brand to sales reps at
first, but I could sell it tomedia, and then I could sell it
(11:23):
to stores. I could sell it tostore owners in particular. And
I have prescribed to thewholesale marketing method. I
firmly believe in independentwholesale as the best marketing
that you can do, and that weshould all support independent
brick and mortar wholesale, um,it gets the fabric in the hands
and and it allows people to tryit on. It's the most
(11:45):
environmentally sustainablebecause we send large shipments
via ground to the stores, andthere's no returns. There's no
shipping of returns. And indoing so, I was able to get the
core, the best skiers andsnowboarders in the industry to
wear our stuff, because theywere the people working in the
stores. They're the people thatthat are in their post grad ski
(12:08):
bum years, and they're going tobe wearing the stuff. And then
when they graduate from, youknow, like, either they make it
in a ski town or they have toleave the ski town, which was my
scenario. I only lasted inJackson Hole for nine months
before I blew my knee out, movedback to my mom's house, started
bartending and started Flylow.
And I'm very thankful that Ihurt my knee, um, and that I
(12:29):
didn't see caretakers in myroommates in Jackson. But you
know, most of those people thatwould get that would start
wearing Flylow, they would then,then go back to the city to
pursue a career, so thathopefully they could get back to
the mountains. And what werealized was that eventually I
hired some, I think of them asBig Brother, Big Sisters, some
(12:53):
people that used to work atlarger companies, but didn't
want to work in a city. Theywanted to be remote, and I
allowed them to be remote. Andone of them was this guy, Jeff
Wagaman, and I still work withhim. And he stayed in Jackson
Hole after cloudvale, a former,you know, big brother ski
clothing company had been sold.
(13:13):
And he actually did a deep diveinto marketing, into what the
message is that Flylow does,because I couldn't answer the
question then, but now I can,because Jeff filtered it down
and he realized afterinterviewing 100 Flylow
customers, that the common trendis that we all want to live life
(13:34):
on our own terms. We all havebuilt a life where we don't
emphasize a huge amount ofwealth, but we want security. We
want to be able to take time offto go ski on a powder day. We
want to be able to go to Verbierif we want to go for a big ski
trip that year. But we're notlooking for multiple homes, and
(13:54):
we're not looking for, you know,we don't place the emphasis on,
you know, the badge that's on,you know, the front of our car,
it's experience. It's owning ourown time. And so in the end, you
know, that's what we figuredout, is that our mission
statement is to inspire peopleto live a life on their own
terms in the mountains. Andwhether it's when you vacation
(14:15):
in the mountains, or you haveyour heart is and where you like
to spend your time is in themountains, or you live up here,
you know, we're here and we'repart of your community, and
Flylow really is just areflection of that community.
Andrew Maff (14:27):
Yeah. I mean, it makes a ton of sense. I
definitely agree the wholesalemarketing side, like, especially
for an audience like yours,like, typically, they're
shopping in those more mom andpop stores, which is fantastic.
Sometimes you have other apparelbrands, which it's a lot more
difficult because their audienceis only shopping in, like, more
of the big box stores, which is,to your point, is kind of a
(14:49):
nightmare. What about from likea digital perspective, it sounds
like you're crushing it fromlike a word of mouth
perspective, everyone is on themountain. They're all talking
about it. It eventually picks upsteam. You get that word of
mouth going. But what aboutanything from a digital
perspective. Do you lean in onthose professionals that you've
worked with from like, aninfluencer perspective, or is it
more of like standardadvertising approach, like, what
(15:11):
is that working for you?
Dan Abrams (15:13):
I think, well, that to tell the story of our E comm
business when we first started,you know, we were 95% direct to
consumer, because no one knewwho we were. We had a couple
stores. We were just barelytrying to break even every year
now yo. And then fast forward 10years into it, where we become
(15:35):
the champion of wholesale. Andthese larger vendors are really
hard to deal with they, theybully you. And also, if you're,
like, maybe a mom and pop storethat isn't the best credit you
know, like you may be our creditrisk, then, like, that was an
opportunity for us to get intothose stores and take that risk.
And sometimes it bit me in thebutt. So eventually we became
(15:58):
95% wholesale and 5% direct toconsumer, which didn't have the
right margin, and we startedfighting the fight to become,
you know, to be become morerobust in Ecomm. And now what
we're seeing is that brick andmortar wholesale continues to
grow for us, and that largeronline players are struggling.
(16:22):
They are struggling to competewith, I think, the storytelling
that we do, you know, like thatwe're so focused on our brand,
they can't keep the breadth ofinventory that we have when it
comes to shorts and talls,larger sizes, all the colors and
stuff and and so forth. So I'mwe're seeing Flylow gear.com
(16:47):
become, you know, the mostprominent online store. And
that's a change from thebeginning of the pandemic, if
you will. And the way we do thatis, you know, yes, we use our
influencers. We believe in allthose pros the ski patrol, the
guides are the most influential,whether you're part of the guide
(17:08):
group or you just see the guideand our athletes. And then we
also participate in performancemarketing, which we actually
didn't do until three years ago,the outdoor industry. You know,
when the outdoor industry hasgone through this, this cycle of
pandemic craziness, whereeverybody canceled their orders
(17:30):
at the beginning, and then thatfall of 2020 there was a bum
rush of sales people couldn'tget enough. So then in 2021 we
make enough, and in 2022 therewas too much inventory. So by
2023 we're just trying to getrid of inventory. 2024 excess
inventory, and now we've resetthe deck. Well, what that
(17:52):
allowed us to do was it gave usthe excess inventory from
canceled big box store orders toactually justify doing the
performance marketing, and we'reslaying it. And the and the
performance marketing is goodfor supporting that, the
wholesalers, the independentwholesalers, because it's the
(18:13):
print magazines, have gone away.
So it's our only way to do it.
And we really try to focus noton like, on like, Hey, we're on
sale. And actually, you'll see alot of other brands right now
are, whether they're direct toconsumer only, or you'll like or
they have a wholesale mix, theyare going on sale at the
(18:34):
beginning of the summer, andthey're going on sale in
November, even if it's 20 off,like they are telling that
messaging and that does no goodfor your independent brick and
mortar. And we do not do that.
We stay full price untilFebruary 15 every year, and and
I think that our customers, theyrespect it, or they just have to
(18:55):
deal with it because, you know,like, because we're not, we're
too small of a company. We'restill bootstrapped, and we're
not looking to delegitimize thebrand by making excess
inventory, making inventory thatwould go to close out. So it all
plays into the mix.
Andrew Maff (19:14):
You're, you know, to your point of kind of going
more DTC now and growing the Ecommerce side. But obviously you
haven't given up on yourwholesale, your retail
opportunities, I would imagineoperationally, that's got to be
still a bit of a challenge,right? Because you've got now
traditional just D2C, ordersgoing out, but then you also
have your larger wholesale andretail orders going on, am I
right?
Dan Abrams (19:34):
Yep, yep. It's created an interesting mix.
Andrew Maff (19:39):
Yeah
Dan Abrams (19:40):
We have owned our own fulfillment in Denver for
years, and it got to the pointin the, you know, at the
beginning of the pandemic, whenlarger orders coming in, and we
doubled in size in in two, threeyears, we came up with a
creative solution, where weoutsourced our wholesale channel
(20:04):
to a three PL, and we use NRI,and they're great. We love NRI
because they are based inKamloops, Canada, in British
Columbia, so that, but then mostof their businesses outside of
LA, so we can have one three PLthat covers us in Canada and in
the United States. And then weactually just went in with their
(20:26):
UK distribution center so thatwe can take care of distributors
without bringing that stuff intothe United States or Canada
first. So it just goes to an EUmember, and then we can disperse
there. And then we've beenfulfilling, and to this date,
are still fulfilling our websiteorders ourselves.
Andrew Maff (20:45):
Interesting. That's a, yeah, I can imagine. It's,
it's a challenge with all that,those different areas going on.
And are you shipping overseas aswell? Do you have an audience in
Europe, anywhere else?
Dan Abrams (20:57):
We we were, but it wasn't enough business to
justify it. And as things gotbigger, and, you know, like and
things get more complicated, wedecided we're focused on the
United States and on Canada. Wedo have distribution in
Australia and New Zealand, andat times we've had distribution
(21:20):
in Italy and Japan, but for now,we're focused on North America.
And you know, honestly, when Ilook around at Europe and the
European market, I draw a lot ofinspiration from the brands that
are there, that don't come here.
And it makes me think about howregional fashion is and how
there are these beautiful brandslike Sweet Protection and Peak
(21:41):
Performance, Jack Wolfskin me aEIder, the list goes on of all
these European brands, theydon't, they don't really come to
the US market. And now thatwe're in this new tariff
regimewhere US manufacturersneed to get out of China,
because we don't know what'shappening, and even the current
tariffs that are in place arejust making it impossible, you
(22:03):
know, basically US brands, oranybody that wants to sell in
theUS, needs to manufactureoutside of China, which creates
a vacuum of amazing, good peoplethat make great product in
China. And so I see it as like afurther separation, where these
European brands, they should beproducing in China, I would, if
(22:24):
I could, and then, but thatmeans that they're not going to
sell that inventory here, whichis going to create another
vacuum. So, you know, like theAmerican market really has to
look to American brands.
Andrew Maff (22:39):
Interesting. I never thought of that. What's
okay? So obviously, stayingfocused on the States and
Canada. What's the plan forgrowth from here? Is it product
line expansion? Obviously, somebrands, they'd make, especially
apparel brands, they makebigger, bigger strategic moves,
like getting into licensing andthings like that. Like, what's
your thought on what the nextbig play is?
Dan Abrams (23:00):
I think, you know, like, from the origins of our
brand, like, one of the reasonswhy we didn't get, you know,
like, kind of that traditionalseed round of funding after
years of, you know, like usingcredit cards and bartending,
because eventually that thatmoney did go away in 2008 when
the financial crisis hit, thecredit crunch hit, those awesome
(23:22):
termswere gone, and so westarted raising money in a more
traditional way, and thateconomic slowdown allowed us to
organically grow, and weorganically grew until we were a
player, and then the pandemicjust blew us up and doubled us
(23:43):
well, now we're back to thatorganic growth. And so that's
one thing, is that we're lookingto just make sure that we have
this solid business at eightfigures, you know, like that
supports our employees jobs,that we don't have to do
layoffs. And so we're not goingto quote, unquote, swing for the
fence. That being said, this isour 20th year, you know, 2005 to
(24:08):
2025 we are now coming out withour first Gore Tex product. We
have established ourselves asmaking the bestpants and bibs in
the market. And Gore Tex wantedtheir fabric in our bibs, and we
wanted their fabric in our bibs.
And so, kind of like chocolateand peanut butter, we got a
pretty sweet product coming outthis year, and I think that
(24:31):
might be the future. Is like,you know, now that we, you know,
like, not to put it in your carracing Formula One terms, but
now that we have the Ferrariengine, you know that all of our
competitors, whether it'sArcteryx or Patagonia or North
Face, are playing with like, youknow, now we're just going to
use the engine. We're going todo it our way, um, and it's
(24:52):
really fun to see. We've alreadydone a wholesale sell in
starting last December. And wealready know that it's
successful. And I just can'twait for people to get the
opportunity, especially, youknow where we started in the
Pacific Northwest, or my rootsare in New England, these wet
places, and now I live in Tahoe,like they're really going to
(25:14):
benefit from having Flylowdurability, Flylow thoughtful
design, with gore tex membraneand and then when you're taking
it to the pinnacle of yoursport, no matter where you are,
whether you're in the dryColorado Rockies, you're gonna
appreciate having, you know,that durability and that Gore
(25:35):
guarantee as well to make youeven more confident in Flylow.
So, you know, we have onlyscratched the surface of the
core ski market, and I thinkthere's a lot of room for us to
consume market shareas we go andyou know, we're still small and
nimble. We can change we canchange our designs faster than
anybody else. So we will do soand represent our community.
Andrew Maff (26:01):
It's very cool, man. I obviously really
appreciate the story. It'salways really cool for me to be
able to, like, interview peoplelike yourself, and then, like, a
year, two, three years from now,look back at this podcast and
see where you guys have gone andthe growth, and be like, Man,
that was his plan, and he didit. So it's very cool. I really
appreciate it. Obviously, I wantto thank you for being on the
(26:22):
show. I'd love to give you thefloor and let everyone know
where they can find out moreabout you. And, of course, more
about Flylow
Dan Abrams (26:26):
Hey, it's not about me, it's about the Flylow
community. So go toflylowgear.com, you know, check
out the story. Check out, youknow, like the product, and then
use the dealer locator and find,if you can find a local brick
and mortar, and goin there andask the ask the shop kids why
they like Flylow, yo, and andsupport them. We are channel
(26:50):
agnostic. We don't care whereyou get it. We just, we just
want you to have a good time andlive life on your own terms.
Andrew Maff (26:57):
Love it. Dan, thank you so much for being on the
show. Obviously, everyone thattuned in, thank you as well.
Please make sure you do theusual thing, rate review,
subscribe all that fun stuff andwhichever podcast platform you
prefer, or head over to theecommshow.com to check out all of
our previous episodes. But asusual, thank you all for joining
us. See you all next time. Havea good one!
Narrator (27:18):
Thank you for tuning in to the Ecomm show. Head over
to Ecommshow.com to subscribe onyour favorite podcast platform
or on the BlueTusker YouTubechannel. The Ecomm show is
brought to you by Bluetusker, afull service digital marketing
company specifically for Ecommerce sellers looking to
accelerate their growth. Go tobluetuskr.com now for more
(27:40):
information, make sure to tunein next week for another amazing
episode of the E comm show!
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.