March 26, 2024 • 28 mins
In this episode, we delve back into our discussion about the book 'Grading for Equity' by Joe Feldman. The third chapter which we are exploring is titled 'How Traditional Grading Stifles Risk Taking and Supports the Commodity of Grades' and opens up the conversation about belief systems and the prevailing view on student achievement. We discuss the stark differences between the Industrial Revolution beliefs and 21st-century beliefs regarding education, and raise questions about how grading methods should shift in light of these changes. We particularly focus on the harm that a heavy focus on extrinsic motivation can cause and the negative implications of traditional grading practices on the trust and relationship between teachers and students. Furthermore, we scrutinize how grades have become a commodity leading to competition rather than collaboration and debate whether traditional grading serves the purpose of preparing students for post-secondary education or not. Towards the end, we suggest potential solutions that look beyond punitive grading policies and value both the learning process and the students' individual expressions of learning.
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**For detailed show notes, please visit our website at https://edugals.com/138**
- 00:00 Introduction to Grading for Equity
- 00:37 Exploring Belief Systems in Education
- 01:42 The Shift in Education Systems and Beliefs
- 04:56 The Impact of Traditional Grading on Risk Taking and Trust
- 07:09 The Negative Consequences of Traditional Grading
- 13:48 The Commodity of Grades and Extrinsic Motivation
- 24:16 The Illusion of Engagement and Motivation
- 25:11 Conclusion and Future Discussions
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- Katie @KatieAttwell
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rachel (00:41):
In this episode, we're going to begin to talk about the
case for changing traditionalgrading and how traditional
grading impacts effective andequitable teaching and learning.
Katie (00:52):
We are returning to Chapter 3 of Joe Feldman's
Grading for Equity, and we arelooking at how traditional
grading stifles risk taking andsupports the commodity of grades
in the classroom.
Rachel (01:04):
Let's get started.
This week, Katie and I are backto get back into this book,
Grading for Equity by JoeFeldman, and get into the third
chapter, which is called HowTraditional Grading Stifles Risk
(01:26):
Taking and Supports theCommodity of Grades.
And I love that title.
Katie (01:31):
Oh, yes, it's great, and um, it's also the beginning of
part two of the book, and so wetalked about the history more,
now we're looking into the casefor change, so motivations
behind it, and I think thisfirst chapter here, chapter
three, is a great conversationstarter, when we think about
that.
So, joe Feldman opens up thischapter with belief systems,
(01:53):
essentially.
So taking a look at theindustrial, industrial
revolution beliefs and kind of,during that time, what we
believed when this educationsystem came to be.
And then the 21st centurybeliefs in terms of learning and
students and expectations ofschool.
And it's, it's very stark, thedifferences.
(02:14):
And so I think it's worthmentioning these three kind of
key points that he brings up.
So, the first one is, studentachievement occurs on a curve,
and only a subset of studentsuh, is capable of meeting
academic standards.
Rachel (02:27):
Doesn't that just give you shivers?
Like in a bad way.
Not in a good way.
Katie (02:32):
it makes me very uncomfortable to even read it.
Rachel (02:34):
Yes,
Katie (02:35):
could not imagine being a teacher during that time and
believing that.
And then this one, now, 21stcentury believes, all students
are capable of meeting academicstandards.
Rachel (02:44):
Which I totally agree with.
Katie (02:45):
I do.
Now, do I think it's across thesystem believed?
I don't know.
I think that we could have awhole episode talking about
that.
but this shift in educationsystems and this belief that all
students can meet academic uh,standards, that's a huge shift
from the past.
And so what are we doing withour grading practices to
recognize that shift?
Rachel (03:07):
that's a great question.
Katie (03:08):
yes.
That's kind of the meat andpotatoes that we need to be
talking about.
Because if we are recognizingthis, what are we doing to
ensure they can demonstratethat?
Because we still kind of mark onthis curve, so to speak.
Rachel (03:19):
So the next one.
Oh, I don't even want to readthis.
Okay.
Industrial Revolution belief isthat schools are expected to
sort students 21st centurybelief is that schools should
not be in the business ofsorting students.
Katie (03:35):
Mm hmm.
And I like this, because we arede streaming here in Ontario,
and it is a fabulous thing.
Rachel (03:41):
I agree.
And even after de streaming,like when students are going
into grade 10 and beyond, it'snot our place to tell students
what stream to go into.
Like, they have the right, ifthey want to try the academic
stream, even if we havereservations about how
successful they're going to be.
One, I mean, the first beliefsays that they, they're, all
(04:04):
students are capable of meetingthose academic standards, so.
And then two is like, we're notin the, we're not in the
business of sorting students,we, we have no right to tell
them that they can't try.
Katie (04:14):
No, we have to respect their aspirations and goals.
And maybe it's going to be hardfor them, but maybe that's an
opportunity where they canexpand their learning strategies
and discover how they learnbetter and how to kind of take
advantage of their strengths toget there.
It might be a very difficultjourney, but it's their journey.
(04:35):
It's not ours.
And we should not be tellingthem what they should and should
not do.
Rachel (04:39):
And what can we as educators do to support that
journey?
Katie (04:43):
hmm.
The last one.
Extrinsic motivation is the mosteffective means of influencing
behaviors, which includebehaviors associated with
learning.
That is the IndustrialRevolution belief.
21st century.
Extrinsic motivation is not themost effective means of
influencing behaviors associatedwith learning and higher order
thinking.
Intrinsic motivation issuperior.
(05:04):
And this is another one where,you know, I say, I believe that,
but what are we doingdifferently?
Because this is, to me,something that still happens on
a regular basis.
Rachel (05:14):
Yeah, and like we have to think about, okay, if an
intrinsic motivation issuperior, What are we doing to
promote a classroom environmentwhere students are going to feel
intrinsically motivated?
Katie (05:28):
And that's just it.
So how are we doing that?
And how are we removing thepressures of extrinsic
motivation?
Because that exists in all ofour classrooms, in one form or
another.
I'm sure it even is in myclassroom.
Let's be honest.
Because we do these thingswithout even thinking.
Like, they've just become partof the system.
And we need to acknowledge theways of our students.
(05:49):
That we are using, you know,carrot sticks, or attendance,
or, maybe earning something inthe classroom as that final
reward.
Rachel (05:58):
Like grades.
Katie (05:59):
Well, yeah,
Rachel (05:59):
Grades are one of the biggest extrinsic motivators
that we use with students, andthey're not effective.
Katie (06:07):
They're not.
Yes.
Yes.
Sorry.
Mm hmm.
Rachel (06:08):
So, uh, sort of, sort of the next section, and I think
this is going to kind of formthe premise of the next few
episodes where we're talkingabout this book, is that he
talks about four sort of ways inwhich traditional grading
practices are going to not onlycontradict, but even undermine
(06:28):
effective and equitable teachingand learning.
So we'll talk about the couplehere today, which we've already
mentioned.
So that traditional grading canstifle risk taking and trust
between teacher and student andsupports the commodity of
grades.
And then the other ones we'llget into in other episodes is
that traditional grading canhide information.
(06:49):
invite biases, providemisleading information, and then
it can also demotivate anddisempower students.
Katie (06:56):
Those are very powerful topics.
I'm excited.
Rachel (06:58):
They're very insanely powerful topics and they're,
they're ones that are going tomake you feel pretty darn
uncomfortable talking about.
Katie (07:07):
Yeah,
Rachel (07:07):
So let's make ourselves uncomfortable and talk about
them.
Katie (07:10):
let's do it.
And so we're going to start offwith risk taking trust and the
teacher student relationship,which, I mean, the past few
years, particularly with thepandemic, Community building,
right?
That, that's where we'rebuilding these relationships and
these trust relationships withstudents and with their whole
classroom community.
So we know it's important, wesee the value, but the question
(07:31):
is, are we taking a look at howsome of this, these tradi
traditional grading practicesimpact that?
Rachel (07:38):
I think if you asked any educator out there, the first
thing they would, like, if yousaid, what's the most important
thing in your classroom or inyour school, without a doubt, I
would say the majority of peopleare going to say relationships.
Katie (07:52):
Mm hmm.
Yes.
Rachel (07:53):
even research shows, like John Hattie's research, if
you dive into any of it, and hedoes kind of mention this in the
book too, is that when there arepositive relationships between
teacher and student, studentsare more motivated, they have
higher achievement and they'reway more engaged in your
classroom, i.
e.
intrinsic motivation goes up.
Katie (08:14):
Yes, so you need to build that trust with that student.
The student needs to know youcare.
You can't just be the sage onthe stage.
Rachel (08:21):
Now the problem with traditional grading now is that
it actually sends the oppositemessage and it actually degrades
that positive relationship thatyou build with students.
Katie (08:33):
Yes, because you have this relationship where you're
showing you care about them, butthen you're still grading on a
scale that kind of punishes themfor making mistakes, or for not
meeting a certain standard thatyou defined.
Rachel (08:47):
Yeah, we all know that we learn through mistakes.
And you have to make mistakes inorder to learn something.
But when we use traditionalgrading and when we punish those
mistakes over and over and overagain it's going to a, you know,
students are not going to trustyou as much anymore because
(09:09):
they're not going to then beable to show their vulnerability
as they're learning new contentand they're not going to take
any risks.
They're going to do as much asthey can to minimize.
how much they are being punishedby taking points or percentages
away from them.
Katie (09:26):
Let's talk about late marks with respect to that.
Right?
Many teachers take off 5% perday, or up to 5% per day that an
assignment is late.
You're not marking theirlearning when you're taking off
5%.
You are grading punctuality and,and meeting deadlines.
That's, that's not theirlearning.
Rachel (09:45):
Not only that, but then it's also saying that what You
value the most in your classroomis the behaviors that we wanted
from the Industrial Revolution.
We talked about that in our lastsort of episode on this book
study is that those behaviors ofpunctuality and being compliant
are all the ones that werevalued to create great factory
(10:08):
workers, and we're still valuingthose today.
Katie (10:10):
Yes.
so you're building arelationship yet you're, you're
totally annihilating thatrelationship in the same breath
when you're taking off latemarks.
Rachel (10:19):
Yeah, so it's very like contradictory on itself.
Now I, I really like this onequote and I've highlighted it in
my book because
Katie (10:28):
I want to know if it's the same one.
Is it, is it skipping?
Rachel (10:31):
No, just, I, I kind of want to point out this one where
it says, The problem is that ourtraditional grading practices
send the opposite message.
Mistakes are unwanted,unhelpful, and punished.
Katie (10:43):
And they are.
I want to, I want to highlightanother thing that stood out to
me because it's something that Isee often with some of my
English language learners.
And it's on page 31.
So it says, for example, whenstudents skip a class, they may
be doing so because they areunprepared or not confident that
they can perform mistake free.
This decision to not attend aclass, instead of being immature
(11:06):
and irresponsible, may insteadbe rational.
And self preserving.
It's safer psychologically tofail for not showing up than to
be penalized and feel shame forgiving incorrect answers that
reveal weakness andvulnerability.
Rachel (11:20):
Yeah, so many behaviors that we see from students are
ones that we're like, oh,they're just being lazy, or
they're being defiant, or, youknow, we can come up with many
different words for it.
But a lot of the behaviors areavoidance behaviors, because
they do not want to fail, likeit's a fear of failure.
(11:42):
So like you said, it's betterthat they don't show up at all
and take that versus being asthe quote says, like punished
for not knowing what they needto know.
Katie (11:54):
Yes.
So it's like these late marksthat you're doing, it's because
a student is too afraid.
They don't want to have mistakesin it.
And so they're, they're tryingto make it perfect.
So that when they hand it toyou, it's the best product they
have.
Or maybe there's things going onthat they know have impacted the
quality of that assignment.
And they want to make sure theyhave time to actually do it
well.
(12:14):
They're, they're trying topresent the best version of
themselves.
And yet, we penalize them fordoing that.
And we penalize them for notshowing up for a test.
Maybe we assign a zero instead.
But this whole, like...
Students are humans that have awide range of emotions and they
are vulnerable.
And sometimes it's easier forthem to get that zero than to
(12:35):
make mistakes because youhaven't created a space where
mistakes are learningopportunities.
And that's what mistakes need tobe.
Learning opportunities.
Rachel (12:43):
Absolutely.
And so some of the otherbehaviors are things like
cheating, Cheating is onecopying off of someone else,
plagiarism.
Katie (12:53):
Chat
Rachel (12:53):
of those behaviors, yeah, chat GPT and the use of
chat
Katie (12:56):
Uh huh.
like that's all part of this.
You are putting so much pressurebecause you're using this
traditional grading system whereit has to be perfect.
Where are we embeddingopportunities for improvement?
Why aren't we doing, hey, here'ssome areas I want you to look at
and resubmit.
Where's the feedback cycles?
Multiple attempts.
Mm
Rachel (13:15):
And even things like, if you consider with traditional
grading, like just adding incompletion grades, like they
don't help either.
Basically, again, there you'resaying, hey, I value your
compliance.
But now you're not kind ofgetting that feedback on where
mistakes are and where thelearning needs to happen.
(13:36):
And so like, They don't helpeither.
Basically, completion grades arejust another form of intrinsic
motivation, and it doesn't work.
Katie (13:46):
Yes.
Rachel (13:47):
I think sort of the key kind of piece from that uh, this
section on like stifling risktaking and degrading trust
between teacher and studentthere's, there's a really sort
of nice passage on page 32 thatuh, he talks about where he
says, the message wheneverything included in the grade
is clear.
You're always being judged andmust show your absolute best
(14:08):
performance in every respect,academic and non academic, every
day.
If you make a mistake or evenare just having a bad day, it's
going to count against you.
There's no room for error, nosafe place to make mistakes.
Death or an academic death of anF by a thousand cuts.
Katie (14:25):
And as adults, we have bad days.
But, but we're not failing.
So why aren't we giving the samespace for students to have bad
days?
Or for them to feel like theycan't be at their best every
day.
Nobody's at their best everyday.
Let's be honest.
Yeah.
Rachel (14:41):
I laugh at that because yeah, even like there, there are
periods.
In teaching where I struggle andI know I'm not the best teacher,
but it's okay.
Katie (14:49):
Yes.
Because life happens.
And there are things that peopleare walking into that building
with every day.
That is going on outside, andthey are doing their best.
And that's all we can ask.
We're all human.
Rachel (15:00):
so let's talk about the commodity of grades and
extrinsic, extrinsic motivationa little bit more, because it's
really interesting if you kindof take a look at the journey of
a student through the K through12 system, when they start out
in kindergarten, grade one, it'sall about play and learning and
making mistakes.
And there's no grades.
(15:21):
Nothing's about points.
And then And I can see this inmy son as he's going through
school, where the points startgetting introduced, like maybe I
don't know, like middle schoolkind of age, where they start
getting levels on things.
And then now he's in gradeseven.
He's getting um, he came homewith his math test.
(15:43):
He got an A which he was soexcited about, and it was, he
got 20 out of 20, which he wassuper proud about.
But like, now it's pointsgrades.
And that continues right theninto high school, where it
becomes even more and moreprominent.
So we kind of go from this Youknow, let's, let's learn and,
(16:04):
and learn from our mistakes andpretty much at least the
students don't see any kind ofgrades to a system where it's
all points and percentages.
Katie (16:12):
and, how we motivate students to get there.
So, like stickers.
I remember in elementary school,if I didn't get a sticker on an
assignment, and my friends did,I was like, oh, I didn't do very
well.
Or earning privileges, or likeprizes and things like that,
that still happens.
In fact, I think it happens morein elementary than it does in
secondary, but I know instanceswhere that is happening in
(16:36):
secondary as well.
So like, like point systems andearning of items or privileges,
like We're valuing behaviorthere.
And I, I don't know, like,extrinsic motivation is not
what's going to drive ourstudents to be motivated to
learn.
If anything, it's going to shutdown some of the intrinsic
motivation because it doesn'tfeel accessible or attainable.
(17:00):
Because you don't value me as aperson, and perhaps the way that
I express my learning andApproach.
School.
I don't play the game of schoolwell, I'm not gonna earn those
privileges, why bother trying?
Rachel (17:12):
If I can be really honest and vulnerable here, I
used to stick stickers on tests.
And I would do it for kids whoonly got, like, over a certain
score.
Katie (17:22):
I know.
Rachel (17:23):
me cringe now when I think about what I, some of the
grading practices I used to do.
Because, you know, I've learnedso much over the past several
years that, that there's no wayI would do that anymore.
But yeah, I, I used to do that.
And just to think of, I don'tknow if it's, yeah, maybe it is
harm that I was doing withoutknowing it.
Katie (17:43):
but I think here's what you need to focus on.
You said used to.
It's still learning.
We were all raised in a systemthat did this.
So, we do what we know.
We do these practices becausethat's what we experienced as
well.
But as you learn better.
And you learn better approachesand research, etc.
You should do better.
(18:04):
And so is what are we doing withthis learning?
Are we continuing these, theseantiquated practices that we
know aren't very effective andactually have the opposite
effect on some of our students?
Or, are we changing?
Rachel (18:15):
It's that Maya Angelou quote, right?
Where it says uh, when you knowbetter, do better.
And it's a great quote.
Katie (18:22):
Yeah, so, I mean, don't be...
Like, don't, don't feelvulnerable or guilty or anything
because you didn't know at thattime.
Right?
We're on a learning journey.
We all do things and have donethings.
Like, when I started outteaching, I was such a hard
marker and I was so strict.
And I looked at behavior as partof that too.
but I've learned and so I'vechanged.
Rachel (18:43):
Now there's a really interesting sort of discussion
on extrinsic motivation andlike, I know that extrinsic
motivation doesn't work.
I've known that for quite sometime.
But, um, he talks about a bit inthis book about that extrinsic
motivation can be beneficial fortasks that are just like menial
or repetitive.
(19:04):
So like, who can stuff the mostenvelopes in this amount of
time, then?
Yeah, sure.
You get a prize for that.
Cool.
Cool.
Cool.
So, that works.
But when you try and useextrinsic motivation for any
kind of task that's higher orderthinking or requires creativity,
that's where it doesn't work.
Katie (19:22):
hundred percent, because who's defining creativity?
Rachel (19:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Katie (19:26):
Who's defining that one answer is better than another
with higher order thinking?
Like, we think differently, weapproach problems differently,
and so we're going to havedifferent answers, and different
expressions.
Rachel (19:37):
And so when we use traditional grading uh, we kind
of, and we put this emphasis onpoints, then basically the
learning Like anything you dowithin the classroom, the focus
becomes on the points and howcan I get this many points?
And it takes away from thelearning itself.
(19:58):
I think we've all been therewhere you've had a student ask
you, is this going to be graded?
How much is this worth?
Uh, What percentage is thisworth of my final grade?
How many points is it out of?
What's on the test, right?
Like, we've, we've had all ofthose questions, and those
questions are coming from thefact that using points does
(20:19):
create that commodity of grades.
Katie (20:21):
And it also creates competition, versus
collaboration, because studentsknow who you are.
The people are getting thepoints.
They know the teacher favorites,so to speak.
And so, you have less of anenvironment where students feel
like they can work with othersand support one another when you
are motivating them with thesepoint systems.
(20:42):
And that's, I think, theopposite of what I want in my
classroom.
I want students to be talkingand sharing and supporting one
another in their languagelearning on a daily basis.
I don't think it should be anindividual kind of task.
I think it's something that wecan help each other with and we
all benefit.
Rachel (20:58):
Another sort of unintended negative consequence
that he talks about with pointsgrades in this section here is
that, Using points will make thestudent more dependent on the
teacher and less independentlearners.
Katie (21:12):
Yeah, makes sense though.
Like if you know the game ofschool and you can play to this
point system you're just goingto be looking for the teacher
cues as to what gets me the mostpoints.
It's a game.
Rachel (21:24):
Yeah, so then they lose those strategies of like, okay,
how do I truly learn this?
Like, how do I fully understandwhat's going on here?
Katie (21:32):
It took me, and this is kind of embarrassing, but I was
really good at the game ofschool until university.
It was university where I waslike, well, damn it.
This is different.
My classes are like, 250 to 500students at times.
And I was so used to these pointsystems and using the teacher as
my guide in terms of what, whatI should value the most and
(21:54):
where I should spend my energythat now I don't have the
learning skills and strategiesin place to figure out how I
learn on my own.
Rachel (22:03):
So I guess that begs the question then, and this is, I
often hear this remark.
In work rooms, in schools, likeanywhere, is that, well, we
can't get rid of the points, wecan't get rid of the
percentages, we can't get rid ofthe tests, because we are
preparing students foruniversity or college, that post
secondary pathway.
Katie (22:22):
I was not prepared.
Rachel (22:23):
knowing that, And knowing what this book says,
that points grades make themless independent learners, are
we really preparing them forpost secondary education using
systems of traditional grading?
Katie (22:36):
No.
I would say for me, absolutelynot, because I never really had
to work hard to figure out how Ilearn.
It came very naturally, becauseit was so, I don't know.
But I didn't, I also didn'tvalue collaboration, because it
was this competitive atmosphere.
Whereas in university, I had tolearn, wait, we're not actually
competing against one another.
(22:57):
We can support one another anddo study groups, and, and help
each other.
And that took me a while to kindof figure out and learn how to
do because it was not a system Iwas used to.
Rachel (23:07):
I think, for me, I was, I was, I was great at the game
of school, too.
I was very good and attuned intohow I got points and, and where
my grades were coming from.
I don't think I really noticed.
The fact that I was, I, I didn'treally know good strategies on
how to learn on my own until Igot to grad school
Katie (23:30):
Ah,
Rachel (23:30):
where I'm just thrown into a research environment.
Right.
And it's like, okay, here's aproject, but like you take it
and you take it and you figureout where you're going with it.
It's that to me was a huge shiftand, and one that took me a
while to like really figure outI was, I don't know.
(23:51):
I was so overwhelmed when Ifirst started grad school.
Katie (23:53):
And so it does catch up.
So if we're not teaching a lotof these I don't know, I guess
they're kind of learning skillsreally and different, and
knowing who we are as learners.
I think that's key.
And within our content areas, weneed students to figure out.
How to discover answers, and howto kind of build that content,
and problem solving skills, and,and all of these different
(24:16):
things.
Note taking even.
Like there's so many skills thatwe should be teaching throughout
K 12, so that all students areprepared.
And some, some students don'tplay the game of school well,
and end up developing theseskills because they have to.
And, and those are the studentsthat I think are going to do the
best long term because they havethis, this, this toolbox of
(24:38):
skills that everybody needs toknow how to use and they were
forced to learn them sooner.
Rachel (24:42):
Well, I think even if you like there, there are many
stories I've heard over theyears where Some of the best
teachers are the ones who reallystruggled in high school and,
and didn't do well in terms ofgrades through high school,
university, and had to kind offigure out their, like you said,
their learning strategies asthey went.
And now they're phenomenalteachers because of those
(25:05):
struggles and because they hadto figure things out as they
went.
Katie (25:09):
that makes so much sense because that means the way they
teach it, they're going to say,hey, if you're finding this
hard, try this approach or trythis.
And if somebody didn't have tostruggle or just kind of they
see it and it makes sense andthey don't even think of another
approach, they're not going tothink to even look at what
another approach is for studentsto try.
It's fascinating.
The game of
Rachel (25:29):
very, so I think kind of one sort of point that I want to
leave on and towards the end ofthis chapter is he says that
With points, it's it's atempting incentive strategy to
use points to manage behaviorbut points really only create
the illusion of engagement andmotivation and I thought that
(25:51):
was just really powerful becausethey do in a way You know,
students want to be compliant.
They want the points.
So it's going to create thatillusion of, yeah, they're
engaged, they're motivated, butthey're motivated not for the
right reasons.
Katie (26:06):
No, it's gonna silence them.
They're going to be afraid toask questions.
They're going to be afraid toengage and, and discuss things
if they are not understanding.
And I think that's a great pointto leave at because that's, I
think that's something we needto think about as educators and
in our school systems.
Rachel (26:23):
Now, we've talked about these issues with traditional
grading.
We will get into other episodesas we get further into this book
about, well, what can we do?
Because, you know, it's allgreat and dandy to know what
some of the issues are withtraditional grading, but we need
some strategies to really kindof Take our grading forward and,
(26:44):
and use it as a tool to supportstudent learning.
Katie (26:47):
Yeah, we're not just going to say, this is terrible.
Look at all the bad things we'redoing and end it there.
Rachel (26:53):
heh.
So it's coming.
Katie (26:55):
Yes, it is coming, but it's important to think about
the bad things because then weunderstand more why we need to
change.
Rachel (27:02):
And so I think on that note, then we're going to wrap
up our conversation here today.
We'll include any of the linksor resources we talked about
here today in our show notes.
You can access our show notesfor this episode at edugals.
com slash 138.
That's edugals.
com slash 138.
Katie (27:22):
And if you like what you heard today, then feel free to
share it with a colleague or afriend.
podcast app so that you don'tmiss out on any future content.
Rachel (27:31):
And as always, we'd love to hear from you.
We'd love to hear your thoughtson what we've talked about here
today with points andpercentages and how it can
affect trust and, and build thatcommodity of grades in your
classroom.
So if you have any thoughts toshare with us, we'd love to hear
them.
You can go onto our flip atedugals.
com slash Flipgrid and leave usa video message there, or you
(27:54):
can go onto our website atedugals.
com and leave us a writtenreply.
Katie (27:59):
Thanks for listening and see you next week.
In this episode, we're going to begin to talk about the
case for changing traditionalgrading and how traditional
grading impacts effective andequitable teaching and learning.
Katie (00:52):
We are returning to Chapter 3 of Joe Feldman's
Grading for Equity, and we arelooking at how traditional
grading stifles risk taking andsupports the commodity of grades
in the classroom.
Rachel (01:04):
Let's get started.
This week, Katie and I are backto get back into this book,
Grading for Equity by JoeFeldman, and get into the third
chapter, which is called HowTraditional Grading Stifles Risk
(01:26):
Taking and Supports theCommodity of Grades.
And I love that title.
Katie (01:31):
Oh, yes, it's great, and um, it's also the beginning of
part two of the book, and so wetalked about the history more,
now we're looking into the casefor change, so motivations
behind it, and I think thisfirst chapter here, chapter
three, is a great conversationstarter, when we think about
that.
So, joe Feldman opens up thischapter with belief systems,
(01:53):
essentially.
So taking a look at theindustrial, industrial
revolution beliefs and kind of,during that time, what we
believed when this educationsystem came to be.
And then the 21st centurybeliefs in terms of learning and
students and expectations ofschool.
And it's, it's very stark, thedifferences.
(02:14):
And so I think it's worthmentioning these three kind of
key points that he brings up.
So, the first one is, studentachievement occurs on a curve,
and only a subset of studentsuh, is capable of meeting
academic standards.
Rachel (02:27):
Doesn't that just give you shivers?
Like in a bad way.
Not in a good way.
Katie (02:32):
it makes me very uncomfortable to even read it.
Rachel (02:34):
Yes,
Katie (02:35):
could not imagine being a teacher during that time and
believing that.
And then this one, now, 21stcentury believes, all students
are capable of meeting academicstandards.
Rachel (02:44):
Which I totally agree with.
Katie (02:45):
I do.
Now, do I think it's across thesystem believed?
I don't know.
I think that we could have awhole episode talking about
that.
but this shift in educationsystems and this belief that all
students can meet academic uh,standards, that's a huge shift
from the past.
And so what are we doing withour grading practices to
recognize that shift?
Rachel (03:07):
that's a great question.
Katie (03:08):
yes.
That's kind of the meat andpotatoes that we need to be
talking about.
Because if we are recognizingthis, what are we doing to
ensure they can demonstratethat?
Because we still kind of mark onthis curve, so to speak.
Rachel (03:19):
So the next one.
Oh, I don't even want to readthis.
Okay.
Industrial Revolution belief isthat schools are expected to
sort students 21st centurybelief is that schools should
not be in the business ofsorting students.
Katie (03:35):
Mm hmm.
And I like this, because we arede streaming here in Ontario,
and it is a fabulous thing.
Rachel (03:41):
I agree.
And even after de streaming,like when students are going
into grade 10 and beyond, it'snot our place to tell students
what stream to go into.
Like, they have the right, ifthey want to try the academic
stream, even if we havereservations about how
successful they're going to be.
One, I mean, the first beliefsays that they, they're, all
(04:04):
students are capable of meetingthose academic standards, so.
And then two is like, we're notin the, we're not in the
business of sorting students,we, we have no right to tell
them that they can't try.
Katie (04:14):
No, we have to respect their aspirations and goals.
And maybe it's going to be hardfor them, but maybe that's an
opportunity where they canexpand their learning strategies
and discover how they learnbetter and how to kind of take
advantage of their strengths toget there.
It might be a very difficultjourney, but it's their journey.
(04:35):
It's not ours.
And we should not be tellingthem what they should and should
not do.
Rachel (04:39):
And what can we as educators do to support that
journey?
Katie (04:43):
hmm.
The last one.
Extrinsic motivation is the mosteffective means of influencing
behaviors, which includebehaviors associated with
learning.
That is the IndustrialRevolution belief.
21st century.
Extrinsic motivation is not themost effective means of
influencing behaviors associatedwith learning and higher order
thinking.
Intrinsic motivation issuperior.
(05:04):
And this is another one where,you know, I say, I believe that,
but what are we doingdifferently?
Because this is, to me,something that still happens on
a regular basis.
Rachel (05:14):
Yeah, and like we have to think about, okay, if an
intrinsic motivation issuperior, What are we doing to
promote a classroom environmentwhere students are going to feel
intrinsically motivated?
Katie (05:28):
And that's just it.
So how are we doing that?
And how are we removing thepressures of extrinsic
motivation?
Because that exists in all ofour classrooms, in one form or
another.
I'm sure it even is in myclassroom.
Let's be honest.
Because we do these thingswithout even thinking.
Like, they've just become partof the system.
And we need to acknowledge theways of our students.
(05:49):
That we are using, you know,carrot sticks, or attendance,
or, maybe earning something inthe classroom as that final
reward.
Rachel (05:58):
Like grades.
Katie (05:59):
Well, yeah,
Rachel (05:59):
Grades are one of the biggest extrinsic motivators
that we use with students, andthey're not effective.
Katie (06:07):
They're not.
Yes.
Yes.
Sorry.
Mm hmm.
Rachel (06:08):
So, uh, sort of, sort of the next section, and I think
this is going to kind of formthe premise of the next few
episodes where we're talkingabout this book, is that he
talks about four sort of ways inwhich traditional grading
practices are going to not onlycontradict, but even undermine
(06:28):
effective and equitable teachingand learning.
So we'll talk about the couplehere today, which we've already
mentioned.
So that traditional grading canstifle risk taking and trust
between teacher and student andsupports the commodity of
grades.
And then the other ones we'llget into in other episodes is
that traditional grading canhide information.
(06:49):
invite biases, providemisleading information, and then
it can also demotivate anddisempower students.
Katie (06:56):
Those are very powerful topics.
I'm excited.
Rachel (06:58):
They're very insanely powerful topics and they're,
they're ones that are going tomake you feel pretty darn
uncomfortable talking about.
Katie (07:07):
Yeah,
Rachel (07:07):
So let's make ourselves uncomfortable and talk about
them.
Katie (07:10):
let's do it.
And so we're going to start offwith risk taking trust and the
teacher student relationship,which, I mean, the past few
years, particularly with thepandemic, Community building,
right?
That, that's where we'rebuilding these relationships and
these trust relationships withstudents and with their whole
classroom community.
So we know it's important, wesee the value, but the question
(07:31):
is, are we taking a look at howsome of this, these tradi
traditional grading practicesimpact that?
Rachel (07:38):
I think if you asked any educator out there, the first
thing they would, like, if yousaid, what's the most important
thing in your classroom or inyour school, without a doubt, I
would say the majority of peopleare going to say relationships.
Katie (07:52):
Mm hmm.
Yes.
Rachel (07:53):
even research shows, like John Hattie's research, if
you dive into any of it, and hedoes kind of mention this in the
book too, is that when there arepositive relationships between
teacher and student, studentsare more motivated, they have
higher achievement and they'reway more engaged in your
classroom, i.
e.
intrinsic motivation goes up.
Katie (08:14):
Yes, so you need to build that trust with that student.
The student needs to know youcare.
You can't just be the sage onthe stage.
Rachel (08:21):
Now the problem with traditional grading now is that
it actually sends the oppositemessage and it actually degrades
that positive relationship thatyou build with students.
Katie (08:33):
Yes, because you have this relationship where you're
showing you care about them, butthen you're still grading on a
scale that kind of punishes themfor making mistakes, or for not
meeting a certain standard thatyou defined.
Rachel (08:47):
Yeah, we all know that we learn through mistakes.
And you have to make mistakes inorder to learn something.
But when we use traditionalgrading and when we punish those
mistakes over and over and overagain it's going to a, you know,
students are not going to trustyou as much anymore because
(09:09):
they're not going to then beable to show their vulnerability
as they're learning new contentand they're not going to take
any risks.
They're going to do as much asthey can to minimize.
how much they are being punishedby taking points or percentages
away from them.
Katie (09:26):
Let's talk about late marks with respect to that.
Right?
Many teachers take off 5% perday, or up to 5% per day that an
assignment is late.
You're not marking theirlearning when you're taking off
5%.
You are grading punctuality and,and meeting deadlines.
That's, that's not theirlearning.
Rachel (09:45):
Not only that, but then it's also saying that what You
value the most in your classroomis the behaviors that we wanted
from the Industrial Revolution.
We talked about that in our lastsort of episode on this book
study is that those behaviors ofpunctuality and being compliant
are all the ones that werevalued to create great factory
(10:08):
workers, and we're still valuingthose today.
Katie (10:10):
Yes.
so you're building arelationship yet you're, you're
totally annihilating thatrelationship in the same breath
when you're taking off latemarks.
Rachel (10:19):
Yeah, so it's very like contradictory on itself.
Now I, I really like this onequote and I've highlighted it in
my book because
Katie (10:28):
I want to know if it's the same one.
Is it, is it skipping?
Rachel (10:31):
No, just, I, I kind of want to point out this one where
it says, The problem is that ourtraditional grading practices
send the opposite message.
Mistakes are unwanted,unhelpful, and punished.
Katie (10:43):
And they are.
I want to, I want to highlightanother thing that stood out to
me because it's something that Isee often with some of my
English language learners.
And it's on page 31.
So it says, for example, whenstudents skip a class, they may
be doing so because they areunprepared or not confident that
they can perform mistake free.
This decision to not attend aclass, instead of being immature
(11:06):
and irresponsible, may insteadbe rational.
And self preserving.
It's safer psychologically tofail for not showing up than to
be penalized and feel shame forgiving incorrect answers that
reveal weakness andvulnerability.
Rachel (11:20):
Yeah, so many behaviors that we see from students are
ones that we're like, oh,they're just being lazy, or
they're being defiant, or, youknow, we can come up with many
different words for it.
But a lot of the behaviors areavoidance behaviors, because
they do not want to fail, likeit's a fear of failure.
(11:42):
So like you said, it's betterthat they don't show up at all
and take that versus being asthe quote says, like punished
for not knowing what they needto know.
Katie (11:54):
Yes.
So it's like these late marksthat you're doing, it's because
a student is too afraid.
They don't want to have mistakesin it.
And so they're, they're tryingto make it perfect.
So that when they hand it toyou, it's the best product they
have.
Or maybe there's things going onthat they know have impacted the
quality of that assignment.
And they want to make sure theyhave time to actually do it
well.
(12:14):
They're, they're trying topresent the best version of
themselves.
And yet, we penalize them fordoing that.
And we penalize them for notshowing up for a test.
Maybe we assign a zero instead.
But this whole, like...
Students are humans that have awide range of emotions and they
are vulnerable.
And sometimes it's easier forthem to get that zero than to
(12:35):
make mistakes because youhaven't created a space where
mistakes are learningopportunities.
And that's what mistakes need tobe.
Learning opportunities.
Rachel (12:43):
Absolutely.
And so some of the otherbehaviors are things like
cheating, Cheating is onecopying off of someone else,
plagiarism.
Katie (12:53):
Chat
Rachel (12:53):
of those behaviors, yeah, chat GPT and the use of
chat
Katie (12:56):
Uh huh.
like that's all part of this.
You are putting so much pressurebecause you're using this
traditional grading system whereit has to be perfect.
Where are we embeddingopportunities for improvement?
Why aren't we doing, hey, here'ssome areas I want you to look at
and resubmit.
Where's the feedback cycles?
Multiple attempts.
Mm
Rachel (13:15):
And even things like, if you consider with traditional
grading, like just adding incompletion grades, like they
don't help either.
Basically, again, there you'resaying, hey, I value your
compliance.
But now you're not kind ofgetting that feedback on where
mistakes are and where thelearning needs to happen.
(13:36):
And so like, They don't helpeither.
Basically, completion grades arejust another form of intrinsic
motivation, and it doesn't work.
Katie (13:46):
Yes.
Rachel (13:47):
I think sort of the key kind of piece from that uh, this
section on like stifling risktaking and degrading trust
between teacher and studentthere's, there's a really sort
of nice passage on page 32 thatuh, he talks about where he
says, the message wheneverything included in the grade
is clear.
You're always being judged andmust show your absolute best
(14:08):
performance in every respect,academic and non academic, every
day.
If you make a mistake or evenare just having a bad day, it's
going to count against you.
There's no room for error, nosafe place to make mistakes.
Death or an academic death of anF by a thousand cuts.
Katie (14:25):
And as adults, we have bad days.
But, but we're not failing.
So why aren't we giving the samespace for students to have bad
days?
Or for them to feel like theycan't be at their best every
day.
Nobody's at their best everyday.
Let's be honest.
Yeah.
Rachel (14:41):
I laugh at that because yeah, even like there, there are
periods.
In teaching where I struggle andI know I'm not the best teacher,
but it's okay.
Katie (14:49):
Yes.
Because life happens.
And there are things that peopleare walking into that building
with every day.
That is going on outside, andthey are doing their best.
And that's all we can ask.
We're all human.
Rachel (15:00):
so let's talk about the commodity of grades and
extrinsic, extrinsic motivationa little bit more, because it's
really interesting if you kindof take a look at the journey of
a student through the K through12 system, when they start out
in kindergarten, grade one, it'sall about play and learning and
making mistakes.
And there's no grades.
(15:21):
Nothing's about points.
And then And I can see this inmy son as he's going through
school, where the points startgetting introduced, like maybe I
don't know, like middle schoolkind of age, where they start
getting levels on things.
And then now he's in gradeseven.
He's getting um, he came homewith his math test.
(15:43):
He got an A which he was soexcited about, and it was, he
got 20 out of 20, which he wassuper proud about.
But like, now it's pointsgrades.
And that continues right theninto high school, where it
becomes even more and moreprominent.
So we kind of go from this Youknow, let's, let's learn and,
(16:04):
and learn from our mistakes andpretty much at least the
students don't see any kind ofgrades to a system where it's
all points and percentages.
Katie (16:12):
and, how we motivate students to get there.
So, like stickers.
I remember in elementary school,if I didn't get a sticker on an
assignment, and my friends did,I was like, oh, I didn't do very
well.
Or earning privileges, or likeprizes and things like that,
that still happens.
In fact, I think it happens morein elementary than it does in
secondary, but I know instanceswhere that is happening in
(16:36):
secondary as well.
So like, like point systems andearning of items or privileges,
like We're valuing behaviorthere.
And I, I don't know, like,extrinsic motivation is not
what's going to drive ourstudents to be motivated to
learn.
If anything, it's going to shutdown some of the intrinsic
motivation because it doesn'tfeel accessible or attainable.
(17:00):
Because you don't value me as aperson, and perhaps the way that
I express my learning andApproach.
School.
I don't play the game of schoolwell, I'm not gonna earn those
privileges, why bother trying?
Rachel (17:12):
If I can be really honest and vulnerable here, I
used to stick stickers on tests.
And I would do it for kids whoonly got, like, over a certain
score.
Katie (17:22):
I know.
Rachel (17:23):
me cringe now when I think about what I, some of the
grading practices I used to do.
Because, you know, I've learnedso much over the past several
years that, that there's no wayI would do that anymore.
But yeah, I, I used to do that.
And just to think of, I don'tknow if it's, yeah, maybe it is
harm that I was doing withoutknowing it.
Katie (17:43):
but I think here's what you need to focus on.
You said used to.
It's still learning.
We were all raised in a systemthat did this.
So, we do what we know.
We do these practices becausethat's what we experienced as
well.
But as you learn better.
And you learn better approachesand research, etc.
You should do better.
(18:04):
And so is what are we doing withthis learning?
Are we continuing these, theseantiquated practices that we
know aren't very effective andactually have the opposite
effect on some of our students?
Or, are we changing?
Rachel (18:15):
It's that Maya Angelou quote, right?
Where it says uh, when you knowbetter, do better.
And it's a great quote.
Katie (18:22):
Yeah, so, I mean, don't be...
Like, don't, don't feelvulnerable or guilty or anything
because you didn't know at thattime.
Right?
We're on a learning journey.
We all do things and have donethings.
Like, when I started outteaching, I was such a hard
marker and I was so strict.
And I looked at behavior as partof that too.
but I've learned and so I'vechanged.
Rachel (18:43):
Now there's a really interesting sort of discussion
on extrinsic motivation andlike, I know that extrinsic
motivation doesn't work.
I've known that for quite sometime.
But, um, he talks about a bit inthis book about that extrinsic
motivation can be beneficial fortasks that are just like menial
or repetitive.
(19:04):
So like, who can stuff the mostenvelopes in this amount of
time, then?
Yeah, sure.
You get a prize for that.
Cool.
Cool.
Cool.
So, that works.
But when you try and useextrinsic motivation for any
kind of task that's higher orderthinking or requires creativity,
that's where it doesn't work.
Katie (19:22):
hundred percent, because who's defining creativity?
Rachel (19:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Katie (19:26):
Who's defining that one answer is better than another
with higher order thinking?
Like, we think differently, weapproach problems differently,
and so we're going to havedifferent answers, and different
expressions.
Rachel (19:37):
And so when we use traditional grading uh, we kind
of, and we put this emphasis onpoints, then basically the
learning Like anything you dowithin the classroom, the focus
becomes on the points and howcan I get this many points?
And it takes away from thelearning itself.
(19:58):
I think we've all been therewhere you've had a student ask
you, is this going to be graded?
How much is this worth?
Uh, What percentage is thisworth of my final grade?
How many points is it out of?
What's on the test, right?
Like, we've, we've had all ofthose questions, and those
questions are coming from thefact that using points does
(20:19):
create that commodity of grades.
Katie (20:21):
And it also creates competition, versus
collaboration, because studentsknow who you are.
The people are getting thepoints.
They know the teacher favorites,so to speak.
And so, you have less of anenvironment where students feel
like they can work with othersand support one another when you
are motivating them with thesepoint systems.
(20:42):
And that's, I think, theopposite of what I want in my
classroom.
I want students to be talkingand sharing and supporting one
another in their languagelearning on a daily basis.
I don't think it should be anindividual kind of task.
I think it's something that wecan help each other with and we
all benefit.
Rachel (20:58):
Another sort of unintended negative consequence
that he talks about with pointsgrades in this section here is
that, Using points will make thestudent more dependent on the
teacher and less independentlearners.
Katie (21:12):
Yeah, makes sense though.
Like if you know the game ofschool and you can play to this
point system you're just goingto be looking for the teacher
cues as to what gets me the mostpoints.
It's a game.
Rachel (21:24):
Yeah, so then they lose those strategies of like, okay,
how do I truly learn this?
Like, how do I fully understandwhat's going on here?
Katie (21:32):
It took me, and this is kind of embarrassing, but I was
really good at the game ofschool until university.
It was university where I waslike, well, damn it.
This is different.
My classes are like, 250 to 500students at times.
And I was so used to these pointsystems and using the teacher as
my guide in terms of what, whatI should value the most and
(21:54):
where I should spend my energythat now I don't have the
learning skills and strategiesin place to figure out how I
learn on my own.
Rachel (22:03):
So I guess that begs the question then, and this is, I
often hear this remark.
In work rooms, in schools, likeanywhere, is that, well, we
can't get rid of the points, wecan't get rid of the
percentages, we can't get rid ofthe tests, because we are
preparing students foruniversity or college, that post
secondary pathway.
Katie (22:22):
I was not prepared.
Rachel (22:23):
knowing that, And knowing what this book says,
that points grades make themless independent learners, are
we really preparing them forpost secondary education using
systems of traditional grading?
Katie (22:36):
No.
I would say for me, absolutelynot, because I never really had
to work hard to figure out how Ilearn.
It came very naturally, becauseit was so, I don't know.
But I didn't, I also didn'tvalue collaboration, because it
was this competitive atmosphere.
Whereas in university, I had tolearn, wait, we're not actually
competing against one another.
(22:57):
We can support one another anddo study groups, and, and help
each other.
And that took me a while to kindof figure out and learn how to
do because it was not a system Iwas used to.
Rachel (23:07):
I think, for me, I was, I was, I was great at the game
of school, too.
I was very good and attuned intohow I got points and, and where
my grades were coming from.
I don't think I really noticed.
The fact that I was, I, I didn'treally know good strategies on
how to learn on my own until Igot to grad school
Katie (23:30):
Ah,
Rachel (23:30):
where I'm just thrown into a research environment.
Right.
And it's like, okay, here's aproject, but like you take it
and you take it and you figureout where you're going with it.
It's that to me was a huge shiftand, and one that took me a
while to like really figure outI was, I don't know.
(23:51):
I was so overwhelmed when Ifirst started grad school.
Katie (23:53):
And so it does catch up.
So if we're not teaching a lotof these I don't know, I guess
they're kind of learning skillsreally and different, and
knowing who we are as learners.
I think that's key.
And within our content areas, weneed students to figure out.
How to discover answers, and howto kind of build that content,
and problem solving skills, and,and all of these different
(24:16):
things.
Note taking even.
Like there's so many skills thatwe should be teaching throughout
K 12, so that all students areprepared.
And some, some students don'tplay the game of school well,
and end up developing theseskills because they have to.
And, and those are the studentsthat I think are going to do the
best long term because they havethis, this, this toolbox of
(24:38):
skills that everybody needs toknow how to use and they were
forced to learn them sooner.
Rachel (24:42):
Well, I think even if you like there, there are many
stories I've heard over theyears where Some of the best
teachers are the ones who reallystruggled in high school and,
and didn't do well in terms ofgrades through high school,
university, and had to kind offigure out their, like you said,
their learning strategies asthey went.
And now they're phenomenalteachers because of those
(25:05):
struggles and because they hadto figure things out as they
went.
Katie (25:09):
that makes so much sense because that means the way they
teach it, they're going to say,hey, if you're finding this
hard, try this approach or trythis.
And if somebody didn't have tostruggle or just kind of they
see it and it makes sense andthey don't even think of another
approach, they're not going tothink to even look at what
another approach is for studentsto try.
It's fascinating.
The game of
Rachel (25:29):
very, so I think kind of one sort of point that I want to
leave on and towards the end ofthis chapter is he says that
With points, it's it's atempting incentive strategy to
use points to manage behaviorbut points really only create
the illusion of engagement andmotivation and I thought that
(25:51):
was just really powerful becausethey do in a way You know,
students want to be compliant.
They want the points.
So it's going to create thatillusion of, yeah, they're
engaged, they're motivated, butthey're motivated not for the
right reasons.
Katie (26:06):
No, it's gonna silence them.
They're going to be afraid toask questions.
They're going to be afraid toengage and, and discuss things
if they are not understanding.
And I think that's a great pointto leave at because that's, I
think that's something we needto think about as educators and
in our school systems.
Rachel (26:23):
Now, we've talked about these issues with traditional
grading.
We will get into other episodesas we get further into this book
about, well, what can we do?
Because, you know, it's allgreat and dandy to know what
some of the issues are withtraditional grading, but we need
some strategies to really kindof Take our grading forward and,
(26:44):
and use it as a tool to supportstudent learning.
Katie (26:47):
Yeah, we're not just going to say, this is terrible.
Look at all the bad things we'redoing and end it there.
Rachel (26:53):
heh.
So it's coming.
Katie (26:55):
Yes, it is coming, but it's important to think about
the bad things because then weunderstand more why we need to
change.
Rachel (27:02):
And so I think on that note, then we're going to wrap
up our conversation here today.
We'll include any of the linksor resources we talked about
here today in our show notes.
You can access our show notesfor this episode at edugals.
com slash 138.
That's edugals.
com slash 138.
Katie (27:22):
And if you like what you heard today, then feel free to
share it with a colleague or afriend.
podcast app so that you don'tmiss out on any future content.
Rachel (27:31):
And as always, we'd love to hear from you.
We'd love to hear your thoughtson what we've talked about here
today with points andpercentages and how it can
affect trust and, and build thatcommodity of grades in your
classroom.
So if you have any thoughts toshare with us, we'd love to hear
them.
You can go onto our flip atedugals.
com slash Flipgrid and leave usa video message there, or you
(27:54):
can go onto our website atedugals.
com and leave us a writtenreply.
Katie (27:59):
Thanks for listening and see you next week.
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