August 29, 2023 • 36 mins
In this episode, we are exploring asset vs deficit mindsets in education. We'll go over our observations as well as some of our ideas to shift away from a deficit mindset in our classrooms.
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Featured Content
**For detailed show notes, please visit our website at https://edugals.com/80**
- Asset mindset - what are the strengths that our students bring to the classroom and how you can embrace that with high expectations
- Deficit mindset - what are students lacking and focusing on their weaknesses
- CRRP - High expectations, Cultural competence, Critical consciousness
- Grades contribute to a deficit mindset and don't give the full picture of the strengths of a student
- Ideas and Strategies:
- Get to know students and don't look at past grades
- Embrace first language
- Google Sheets auto-translate words EduGIF from Jake Miller
- Involve parents/families in school community - builds a positive school culture
- Watch your language and avoid placing students into buckets (struggling vs striving, harmful language)
- Destreaming is coming in Ontario for Grade 9 next year and needs asset mindset
- Book: Going Gradeless, Grades 6-12 by Elise Burns and David Frangiosa
- Becoming aware and speaking up against deficit language
- Need PD on asset-based mindsets and language (peer conversations and dialogue, active learning, voluntary, accessing when ready, multiple opportunities, reflection)
- Video: Asset vs Deficit Mindset Definitions
- Recognize that our brains are wired for negativity to protect ourselves
- Rachel's grading Twitter rant
- Community and relationship building - conversations and conferencing with students, get curious about behaviours, collaborate with other staff
- Avoid the silo and utilize the whole school team
- Question your assessment practices, focus on personalized and descriptive feedback (tests = deficit, portfolios = asset for example), varied types, focus on skills
Connect with EduGals:
- Twitter @EduGals
- Rachel @dr_r_johnson
- Katie @KatieAttwell
- EduGals Website
- Support the show
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rachel (00:25):
Welcome to the EDU gals podcast.
We are your co-hosts, RachelJohnson.
Katie (00:30):
I'm Katie Atwell.
We are here to bring you tipsand tricks to help you integrate
technology into your classroom.
Rachel (00:39):
In this episode, we are talking about asset versus
deficit mindset.
Katie (00:45):
Yeah.
So we'll go over some of ourobservations and then also share
some of our ideas on how we canshift away from this deficit
lens in education.
Let's get
Rachel (00:54):
started.
This week, Katie and I are hereto talk a bit about.
Mindsets and specifically theidea of an asset versus a
deficit mindset in ourclassrooms.
Yeah, so
we've
Katie (01:14):
kind of been chatting a bit and um, I think part of it
is my master's course right now.
Uh,'cause I'm doing educationfor students of refugee
background, uh, and then also inmy daily experience of teaching
English language learners andthis idea of how we approach
students and how we kind of lookat what they have to offer in a
positive light instead of.
(01:36):
What they don't have.
And so it kind of, um, it, it'sbrought up a few discussions
that we thought was worth
Rachel (01:43):
exploring.
Yeah.
'cause I think it's, it's notjust our English language
learners.
There's so many differentsituations where I see this kind
of language in this kind ofmindset.
So it's definitely a topic worthtalking about.
Yeah.
So for
Katie (01:57):
those listening, I, I mentioned to my partner this
morning what we were talkingabout, and he looked at me and
he was like, What are you eventalking about?
What does asset versus deficitmean?
So I, I kind of laughed.
Um, he always makes fun of allof Ed, you speak, but
essentially when you are.
Um, approaching students from anasset based lens, it means that
(02:18):
you're looking at what they'recoming in with as a strength and
how you can embrace that andhelp them move forward with high
expectations.
Whereas if you're approachingstudents from a deficit based
lens, it means that you'relooking at what they're lacking.
So you're, you're seeing theweaknesses and not what they
have to offer as strength.
Rachel (02:39):
Yeah, essentially this is C R R P, so culturally
relevant and responsivepedagogy.
And in fact, I was looking it upthis morning'cause I, I wanted
to make sure I got the threesort of areas of C R R P, right?
So there's high academicexpectations, cultural
competence, and criticalconsciousness.
And in within culturalcompetence, although I think it
(03:00):
applies to all pieces of C R RP, they actually talk about
having an asset-based approach.
In your teaching.
And so, yeah, like this is soimportant and it really is, is
that mindset shift of what areour students bringing to the
table and what strengths do theyhave and how can we leverage
(03:22):
those in our classrooms versusfocusing on the things that they
can't do.
And sticking them into thosebuckets of, you know, well,
they're a struggling learner, orthey're an English language
learner, or they're a SPEDstudent.
Like, we can't do that.
Katie (03:39):
No.
And, and I do want to say like,this isn't an attack on
teachers.
'cause to be honest, the waythat the education system is set
up, it is set up in such a waywhere it is so easy to look at
the deficits versus looking atthe whole student.
Rachel (03:53):
Oh, absolutely.
The way that
Katie (03:55):
we communicate IEPs, Student success profiles, even
like the step continuum forEnglish language learners, it
really does.
You know, it gets teachers tofocus more on what students
can't do and maybe some of theirweaknesses versus the strengths
that we can then use in ourclassroom.
So it is not an attack
Rachel (04:15):
at all.
No.
Even I'm, I'm thinking evengreats.
Grades are like really kind ofbased on that deficit mindset.
Like docking marks fromeverything that a student
doesn't know how to do in yourclassroom, or, you know, seeing
that 80% on a report card meansthey don't know 20% of what is
going on in your classroom.
Katie (04:36):
Even looking up a prior year's grade, like let's be
honest, like why are you lookingat last year's grade?
Why not figure out where they'reat now and what they know now
and what they can bring to yourclassroom.
Rachel (04:48):
Yeah, and and that's one of the things that's really kind
of changed in terms of mymindset going forward.
Like I am, I will no longer lookup grades for students in past
years because those grades,they're just, they're.
Okay, I'm gonna go on a bit of arant here probably, but there's
a snapshot in time of where astudent was learning at that
(05:11):
point in time.
It doesn't mean that that'swhere they're going to be this
year.
And there, there's so manydifferent extenuating
circumstances and factors thatgo into what that grade actually
means.
It's just a number.
I would rather go have aconversation with their teacher
from last year and talk about.
The strengths that the studentsare bringing to my classroom, I
(05:34):
feel like that information wouldbe so much more valuable.
And, and
Katie (05:38):
we also have to remember that, you know, students do
mature and they do get olderover time and they do kind of
figure out.
How school works and, and howthey fit into that structure.
So, you know, we do need to givethem time and give them space
and the benefit of the doubt.
So we need to do less of thetalking about, you know, maybe
(05:59):
some of the things theystruggled with and instead just
look at the student.
Like when I, and this is gonnasound crazy'cause I teach E S L,
but I don't look at their steplevels for the first couple of
weeks because I don't wanna knowhow somebody else has
interpreted their language.
You know, I take a couple ofweeks to actually figure out
where they're at individually tohelp inform my practice.
(06:21):
And then, you know, sometimesI'll look back if I'm like, this
seems off.
What did the last teacher think?
But even then, you know, I, Ihave a responsibility to teach
the kid in front of me.
I.
And so it doesn't matter whatsome report
Rachel (06:34):
has listed.
Yeah, I would say even thinkingabout, you know, those first
couple days in my chemistryclassroom and, and stuff that I
would do, I had one activitythat I still absolutely love and
I use over and over again to,depending on the year, it's
either who captured the chemistor who kidnapped the chemist.
(06:55):
And it, it's really kind of likea logic puzzle that has students
working in groups solvingchemistry problems, and then
each time they solve one, theyget a clue towards solving the
ultimate problem takes a fullperiod, at least to do.
And usually I have studentsworking in small groups.
And so from that activity, juston that first day of class, I
(07:18):
learned so much more about wherestudents are coming from, what
their kind of backgroundunderstanding is than ever
looking at a grade I.
Yeah.
And so,
Katie (07:28):
you know, one of the, the pieces of advice that I
typically give to, you know,mainstream content teachers, uh,
with respect to ELLs, and I knowit's very specific, but, you
know, not all multilinguallearners are in E S L
programming.
Uh, embrace their firstlanguage, embrace the home
language, like they, why not letthem brainstorm or do some of
(07:50):
the rough draft in their firstlanguage?
They're still demonstrating thatthinking process, et cetera.
And yes, You know, maybe it'snot easy for you to understand,
but you can quickly do a GoogleTranslate with a photo, um, and
it.
Translates everything so you canat least see how they're doing
in terms of, you know, thatprocess, but, you know, embrace
(08:11):
that first language and whatthey bring with them.
Rachel (08:14):
Absolutely.
That was one of the key kind ofthings that was highlighted
right at the beginning of when Itook my AQ for teaching English
language learners is, Making useof that first language and, you
know, kind of looking back andreflecting on what I've done
past practice.
I, I, I've never really thoughtof that until I learned that
(08:36):
myself.
So yeah, brainstorming in firstlanguage for stress and first
language, you know.
It, it's, it's not a deficitthat English isn't their first
language.
Katie (08:48):
No.
And, and there's so much thatthey bring to that, right?
So I mean, it means that theyhave the ability to actually
think and process these newconcepts in multiple languages.
That's actually reallyimpressive.
Uh, and I mean, the goal is toget them towards English, but
you know, it's not going tohappen overnight.
And we shouldn't expect that tohappen overnight.
And, and students still have aright to learn content.
(09:11):
Even though they may not havethe same level of English as
native born English speakers, soyou know, I think it's important
to kind of embrace it, let themwork through it.
And then help them build inthose like explicit vocabulary
lessons and skills, like helpthem attach the words in their
first language to English, likeas a science teacher, that is
(09:35):
your specialty, Rachel, likeyou, you know, the academic, you
know that vocabulary.
So just kind of help them attachit.
And then, you know, it makes abig difference.
I'm not saying you don't, I'msaying as an example.
Rachel (09:47):
Oh yeah, no, I get that.
And, uh, that, that kind ofreminds me of that one edu gif
that Jake Miller put out quite awhile ago now.
But how to use Google sheets toauto translate words like you
could really easily set that upfor any vocab in your courses
and show, show your students howto do those auto translations.
(10:08):
And, and that actually brings
Katie (10:09):
me to.
The school culture because byembracing the multilingual
learners that you have in yourschool community, you're
actually showing that you valuethat cultural diversity and that
linguistic diversity.
And in doing so, You create amuch more positive learning
environment for all students,and, and that in turn brings
(10:32):
about a more positive schoolcommunity who embraces the
differences instead of, youknow, criticizing or insulting.
I, I just think that, you know,if we have this positive school
community, students are gonna beproud of who they are.
They're gonna be more willing toshare.
And then it also creates anopportunity for parents to feel
(10:54):
comfortable and involved intheir students' learning.
I.
I don't know.
I feel like that's lacking infor a lot of our parents who
perhaps don't have the strongestEnglish, but we need to see that
as, you know, they're just apart of our community.
Let's get interpreters, let'sinvolve them still.
Like let's not exclude familieswho can't communicate.
Rachel (11:14):
Yeah, I mean that, that really is the goal of education,
right?
Is building relationships andbuilding a community and having
those connections with not onlyyour students, but also your
parents within the school,outside of the school.
So, yeah, I, I agree with all ofthat.
It's actually,
Katie (11:32):
it's one of my big.
Plans or projects for next yearis I need to get more parent
involvement and familyinvolvement because I feel like
parents aren't totallycomfortable in the conversations
I've had.
But I think there's some reallygreat ways to get to get parents
involved and to get them to comeinto the school and kind of see.
(11:53):
Where the learning happens andget comfortable with teachers
and, you know, start to ask thequestions that they have and see
how their role as parents canhelp support their students.
And, and that's really honestly,it, it may not seem as connected
to asset-based lens, but itreally is because that school
culture informs how comfortablestudents are in your classroom
(12:14):
and how brave they are to speakor use a term in their first
language, or even to admit, Thatthey are multilingual because
some are so afraid to admitthat.
Rachel (12:24):
Yeah.
And that's a real shame.
Yeah.
I think when we're talking aboutthis though too, it's, it's not
just our English languagelearners.
Like we, uh, you think about ourstudents with special education
needs, I.
You know, they're not SPEDstudents.
They are students who requireaccommodation within our
courses, and there's certainaccommodations that will help
them and will help bring out thestrengths that they have and,
(12:49):
and show off what they're ableto do.
Yeah.
Katie (12:51):
And I think there's a lot of learning that needs to happen
to make sure that we're actuallyembracing these, the all
learners really, and, andfinding ways to see it from a
strength-based approach.
Because I think we're so quickto see what they can't do versus
what they can,
Rachel (13:07):
and even thinking about de streaming next year.
Yeah.
And just some of theconversations and, and maybe I'm
picking up on it more this yearafter, after a ton of learning
that I've been doing around.
UN grading, grade list equity,um, all, all of those sort of
themes.
But I'm hearing the languagemore and more that's really
(13:29):
actually upsetting me anddisturbing me.
So, talking about in Ontario,we're, we're gonna be de
streaming.
All of our grade nine coursesnext year.
Now most of them are gonna beadopting the academic
curriculum.
Science is going to a fully Dstreamed new curriculum.
Math has already done that, buthaving conversations with people
(13:50):
around the science D streamedcourse for next year.
You know, just hearing thelanguage like, well, what are we
gonna do with the applied kitsversus the academic kits?
Ugh.
And just even that, it's just,it's, it's really frustrating me
and, and making me speak up andsay like, we, we can't be
thinking that way.
(14:11):
We have to have highexpectations that all of our
students are gonna be able tosucceed and achieve in, in these
courses.
And how are we going to thenstructure those courses to make
sure that.
We are meeting all of theirneeds.
Yeah.
We need to get
Katie (14:26):
rid of that, that language entirely.
Like who, who are you to decideand label which student is an
applied level learner and, andyou, you know what I mean?
Like, we're not streaminganymore.
That's the whole purpose.
We're not doing this.
We're not going to limit theirfuture possibilities because you
think of them as an appliedlearner.
Rachel (14:44):
Yeah.
And uh, one of the books I justfinished reading, uh, called
Going Grade List, it's DavidFranza and Elise Burns, Eloise
Burns, I, I, I forget what the,uh, the other author's name,
first name is, so I apologize.
But they even talk aboutlanguage in their book and
instead of using the wordstruggling student, they use
(15:06):
striving student.
And I love that switch inlanguage just automatically goes
from that.
Deficit mindset to anasset-based mindset.
Yeah.
Katie (15:16):
And, and that is something we need to get better
at, because I know in educationtraditionally we, we don't have
that positive language, butthat's a huge part in shifting
the way we speak and the way weapproach students is as simple
as striving versus struggling.
Like that's a great example.
Rachel (15:33):
Yeah.
And that, that one, you know,every and every time I came
across the word, I had to kindof stop and go, okay, like, I
understand what this means and,and trying to rethink about it
from an asset based mindset.
'cause I'm still learning myselfas well.
I don't admit that I have allthe answers and yeah, like it's,
it's just, it's such a sh ashift.
(15:55):
But now whenever I hear the wordstruggling student, it's
triggering me and it's making methink like, The language we use,
like this is actually harmfullanguage for these students, and
so we should be calling eachother out on the language.
Yeah.
Katie (16:11):
Hard to do, but it's, it's definitely needed and I'm,
I'm guilty of it too.
Like I've, I've used thatdeficit language quite often and
not really realizing it.
Right.
Because it we're just, it's soingrained in us.
Rachel (16:24):
Well, you think about like conversations that happen,
work in workrooms and staffworkrooms and just talking about
different students and wherethey're struggling and stuff.
Like the language that comes outcan be pretty darn deficit based
and I'm guilty of it.
And now that I kind of thinkback on some of those
conversations, I'm like, uh, youknow,'cause I've, I've done a
(16:46):
lot of learning since then.
But yeah, I, I.
I don't know.
I think it's, it's just aboutbringing it up every time you
kind of hear that language and,and saying something because
it's the only way we're gonnalearn.
Yeah.
Katie (17:00):
And, and to be honest, it's, it's becoming aware of the
language that is really thefirst step.
So, so by identifying it andbecoming aware when you're
hearing it or when you'respeaking it, that really is that
first step towards changing thelanguage and, and shifting to a
more asset-based approach versusalways looking at the struggle
or
Rachel (17:19):
the weakness.
Yeah, and so I think one reallygood clue that it's a deficit
based kind of language is whenyou're sticking students into
buckets like, oh, they're an E LL student, or they're a SPED
student, or they're an appliedkid, or they're, you know, they
always struggle.
Recognizing those buckets Ithink is probably a good first
(17:43):
step in thinking about, well, ohno, wait.
That's coming from a deficitbased mindset.
How can we switch it and flip itto an asset based mindset
instead?
No,
Katie (17:53):
definitely.
We, we definitely need to stopputting them into these
categories.
I mean, there is sometimes aneed for that, like when you're
talking about funding,programming, et cetera.
Sure, sure.
But, but we can't be.
Identifying studentsspecifically in our courses
based on perhaps anexceptionality.
Yeah.
Rachel (18:13):
Like even think like, oh, they're not a science kid.
Mm-hmm.
They're not a math kid, they'rebad at math.
You know, like even that is,Coming from a deficit based
mindset.
Yep.
Or
Katie (18:25):
they don't have what it takes to be in my course.
Right.
That happens, and I understandthe frustration as a teacher,
but I think that comes back to,you know, one of the things we
need in order to encourage anasset based approach in
education is professionaldevelopment.
We need targeted professionaldevelopment to help teachers
(18:46):
from where they are at.
And give them the tools that canhelp them be more successful in
reaching all
Rachel (18:53):
students.
Yeah, and I think, you know,the, the approaches to that
professional learning need to chshift and change too, because we
can't just, you know, all sit ina big room together and have
someone talk at us about assetversus deficit mindset and
language.
Like it needs to, there needs tobe good conversations and.
(19:15):
You know, the, the, thosediscussions between colleagues
and within departments, betweendifferent departments, it, it,
it's the only way you can learn.
I feel like there needs to besome sort of active piece of
learning where you're looking atyour courses and your materials
and your curriculum and, andpulling out that language and,
(19:37):
and really sort of doing thatself-examination.
Katie (19:40):
Yeah, and it also, You know, it has, it has to almost
be somewhat voluntary.
Like if somebody is totallyclosed off to this type of
professional development, you'rejust going to become more
frustrated and they're justgoing to become more defensive.
So I, I almost feel like.
We have to give space toteachers to kind of figure out
(20:00):
where they are at, give multipleopportunities, offer some like
reflective type questions to getthem thinking, but there needs
to be a readiness as well.
Yeah, and
Rachel (20:11):
I, and, and that is probably one of the, the big,
big sort of issues withprofessional learning is.
You know, someone from Higher Updecides this, that everybody is
ready for this learning.
And so we are going to do thislearning on this day at this
time.
And that's it.
And it, it goes back to mastery,right?
(20:34):
Yeah.
And so meeting
Katie (20:36):
people where they are at, yeah.
Rachel (20:39):
But.
It.
You're right.
It does need to come from aplace of readiness.
And I think, I think, and Iwonder, I, I think it kind of
starts with just sharing littlepieces of information and little
learnings.
Like I came across this onewebsite this morning as we were
before we recorded, and there'sthis like great two and a half
(21:02):
minute video.
Anyone can watch a two and ahalf minute minute video, or you
could show it in a staff meetingor whatever.
And it literally talks aboutwhat asset versus deficit
mindsets are.
And it was fantastic and it gotme thinking about other
situations and other scenarios.
So I think even just providingthose little prompting.
(21:23):
Pieces of learning that, youknow, don't take too long are
not too intensive, but kind of,I guess kind of poke at, I don't
know, different thinking.
Yeah.
Katie (21:35):
And, and, and from there, I think what will naturally
happen is you'll get those staffmembers who are ready for kind
of the learning and making somechanges and you work with them.
And then I do think naturally,It will grow, like staff members
will become ready as people aresharing, as people are kind of
(21:57):
showing what they're doing, uh,and kind of sharing some of the
good things that are happening.
As a result, it's, it's notgoing to be overnight.
I.
Like I, I am very well awarethat shifting from as or deficit
to asset is going to take time.
Yeah.
For
Rachel (22:12):
sure.
Katie and I are still learning.
Yeah.
And I still catch myself in adeficit mindset sometimes, and I
have to stop myself and go,okay, no, wait, no, we don't.
We don't, you know, we got, wegotta flip it and think of it
the other way.
We,
Katie (22:28):
we also are very much inundated with a deficit mindset
in the media, in, you know,magazines, in terms of
self-image, et cetera.
There's always negativity in howwe view ourselves, in how we
view others around us.
So being able to switch thatprofessionally is super
difficult because all of themessaging we receive is always
(22:50):
about what's wrong with peopleor what's wrong with you.
Versus what's great,
Rachel (22:55):
have you ever heard, and, and so that what you just
said sparked this for me, isthat our brains are actually
wired for negativity because,huh?
Our brains are designed toprotect us and keep us safe.
And so venturing out intosomething that's more unknown.
And this goes back to like ourcaveman days, right?
(23:15):
Where, you know, you, you get tolearn your lay of the land and
you know, where you're not gonnaget basically eaten by a tiger,
but venturing outside of thatsort of area, you, you don't
know.
And it's unknown and it'suncertain.
And so it, I don't, your braincontinuously puts you back into
that negativity kind of mindset.
(23:35):
Naturally.
Like this is part of our defenseme mechanism to make sure and,
and that we are protected andthat we're safe.
And it goes back to thatprehistoric kind of, kind of
time and our brains just haven'tdeveloped since then.
That's fascinating.
It is fascinating and, um, It'sreally kind of changed my
(23:57):
outlook on, on a lot of things.
Like I, I, I naturally focus ona lot of negative stuff and I, I
will admit, like I do stress outvery easily.
I do get a lot of anxiety andjust recognizing like, That this
is my brain.
Just trying to protect myselfhas done wonders for me in terms
(24:18):
of, of changing my thinking andchanging my outlook.
It's like, oh, okay.
Thanks brain.
Thanks for telling me that.
But that's not how it's going tohappen.
So just even recognizing thatlike I am definitely more vocal,
I will speak my mind.
Like I, I even threw out thisrant on Twitter the other day
(24:39):
about grades and, and what wason my mind.
I never would've done thatbefore.
But yeah, I guess where I'm, I'mkind of going to is I think it
starts with us.
Just talking about it and, andpointing things out and, and
saying something.
No, definitely.
Katie (24:55):
And, and it will happen over time.
The more you talk about it, itreally will.
And then it becomes part of yourpractice and then you share and
then it becomes part ofeverybody's practice, hopefully.
But, uh, yeah.
That's, that's fascinating.
I like that.
I kind of, it helps meunderstand better my natural
responses.
Rachel (25:16):
The brain is fascinating.
I mean, we're coming from ascience nerd perspective, right.
But I, I do, I I do really findhow our brains work and just
really, really interesting.
So,
Katie (25:29):
um, one of the strategies that I think.
Is an easy one to do thatanybody can do in any course is
taking the time to get to knowstudents.
And we'd say this all the time,but community building,
relationship building, learningmore about each individual
student to help inform your
Rachel (25:50):
practice.
Yeah, and so thinking aboutthat, then bringing in
conversations more into evenyour assessment practices.
So having those one-on-oneconferences with students as as
much as you can.
I know they take a lot of timeout of your class time, but they
are so worth it.
You learn so much more aboutyour students.
(26:12):
If you can just have a quickone-on-one conversation with
them than from anything else.
And,
Katie (26:17):
and sometimes, you know, when we look at students who are
absent a lot or who aren'tcompleting homework, et cetera,
like some of that, you know,immediately we wanna go to the,
oh, they're just skipping, or,oh, they're lazy, but you know,
have that conversation withthem.
You would be surprised howhonest they are and also what
(26:38):
some of these kids are carryingon their shoulders.
And they're walking in with on adaily basis because it's not all
hunky dory, so to speak.
Kids are struggling and dealingwith a lot.
Yeah.
Rachel (26:49):
Get curious, ask lots and lots of questions.
You know, try, try and, it'salmost like you're a detective,
right?
You're trying to figure out why,and, and so asking why is
probably the best question.
You can do,
Katie (27:04):
I mean like, don't prod too much.
'cause if there's traumaunderneath there, we don't wanna
be a trigger.
But at the same time, like just,you know, come from it, from a
supportive versus, you know, anaccusation lens.
Talk to them.
See how you can help.
The more trust there is betweena teacher student, the more
willing they are to be very openand honest with what's happening
(27:26):
in their lives.
And then, you know, that canhelp you understand, you know,
what you can do to support andperhaps.
What other supports are neededin this situation, because it's
not just on you as a classroomteacher.
We have social work supports.
We have, you know, certs, sospecial education resource
teachers.
We have the E S L lead if it'san English thing or something
(27:49):
going on, et cetera.
We, we have settlement supports,like we have so many different
people available in our schoolcommunity.
To make sure students can besuccessful.
Yeah,
Rachel (28:00):
and when I say get curious too, it also means not
just asking the studentsquestions, but going and talking
to other staff members who have,who've worked with that student
or currently working with thatstudent.
So like Katie's saying, reachout to the cert, if that makes
sense.
Or the e s l lead or theirguidance counselor.
(28:21):
They're a great resource andusually know a lot more about
what's going on in thatstudent's life than anybody else
in the school.
And they might not be able totell you everything, which is
fine, but they can at least giveyou some sort of hints or
suggestions.
Like, yes, this student isdealing with something very
traumatic and you know, here'show I might approach it.
(28:42):
And so you, you can get a lot ofreally, really VA valuable
information just from havingconversations with other
colleagues in your building.
Yeah.
Like
Katie (28:51):
it, it is amazing how many people there are to support
and, and there's, there'sdefinitely somebody who can help
you out.
So don't, don't see this as a, ayou problem alone.
It really isn't like it's, it's.
It's a community approach, andif we move away from these
siloed centers, so to speak,within a school and see it more
(29:11):
as a whole team approach, Ithink that.
That also is a great way tostart moving towards asset-based
approaches and, and utilizingeverybody on our team
Rachel (29:21):
for sure.
Break down the silos.
I see so many silos ineducation, even working in, in
the coaching capacity at theboard level.
Like there's, there's littlesilos for, for equity and for
special education and forcurriculum and planning and
just.
Yeah, collaborating with otherone another, breaking down those
(29:43):
silos and really understandingwhat everybody is doing is so,
so important.
Yeah.
We all have something
Katie (29:50):
to offer and you know, often when I reach out to
guidance or somebody else andthey give me a different
perspective, I'm like, oh yeah,I should try that.
You know, I should shift that alittle bit and see how, you
know, it's, we all really dohave a lot to offer to one
another.
Rachel (30:05):
So I think another sort of area that you could kind of
key in on and and focus on interms of thinking more from an
asset based mindset is aroundyour assessment and around your
assessment practices.
Um, so focusing more ondescriptive feedback that is
helpful for students than justwhether something's right or
(30:28):
wrong and
Katie (30:28):
making it tailored to them.
So, You know, if you know of astrength that they have that
perhaps they could use toimprove, you know, access that
so often, I'll tell my students,um, You didn't quite get the
understanding of this word, butyou know this, so let's kind of
build from here.
So use the language, you know,uh, use your first language, I
don't care.
(30:49):
Um, but it's just tailoringfeedback in such a way that
allows students to reallyimprove and, and access what
they do know and what theirstrengths are to get better.
Rachel (30:58):
I think it's also questioning about the type of
assessments you use as well.
So, I, I'm kind of thinking, youknow, giving a, a test, a test
actually is really kind of basedon a deficit mindset.
You know, how much do the kidsremember or know, or like, how
can I trip them up and see ifthey really understand it or
not?
And I.
(31:19):
So building that test, actually,uh, and, and I might, I, I don't
know if everyone agrees with meout there, but it, it's based on
finding the deficits in whatkids can't do versus what they
can do.
Whereas if you created somethinglike a portfolio, I.
That's definitely more assetbased.
It's how much have they learned,how much have they grown over
(31:40):
the course of time?
Katie (31:41):
Yeah, and I also find some tests are very rote based,
like it's very memorizationbased, which, let's be honest,
that doesn't show if theyunderstand a concept.
So like for my history, I didhistory for English language
learners.
We actually did interviews.
We had conversations abouthistory and, and how we can see
these events reflected in today,and it was amazing the
(32:04):
conversations that we had, and Iknow I wouldn't have been able
to get those details and thatthinking process if I had
limited it to
Rachel (32:12):
writing.
Yeah.
Even a few years ago I was.
Kind of playing around withproject-based learning in my
chemistry classroom and we hadstudents design their own
chemical batteries and thentheir, their sort of showcase
days was showing their batteryoff, um, seeing if it could
power a calculator for 30seconds.
(32:34):
That was their challenge andhaving a, a conversation with us
and to discuss to.
Us what was going on with thechemistry behind it.
And those conversations were somuch richer.
I mean, we still ended up havinga unit test after, but the unit
test, like thinking back on itnow, that was so useless and so
pointless.
Fine.
(32:54):
They need practice with that.
Those kinds of questions.
'cause it wasn't IB course andso, you know.
Ib, 80% of their grade is basedon writing a test, which is
ridiculous in itself.
But yeah, like thinking back onthat now, I learned more about
their understanding of thosechemical concepts from those
(33:15):
conversations than I ever didfrom their test.
It reflected on their tests,which was great.
Katie (33:20):
Yeah, no, so I, I think it just goes to show that we
need to kind of.
Change how we assess and youknow, maybe perhaps do a whole
bunch of different versions,like don't always stick to
writing.
You know, give some speakingopportunities, maybe even like a
recording, they can recordthemselves or create something,
get something that gets theminteracting with the material
(33:41):
more.
Even
Rachel (33:41):
looking at courses and the way that assessment is
broken down and laid out inOntario curriculum, like for
science courses, knowledge andunderstanding is, Maybe 15% of
the final mark, so okay, fine.
There's your rote learning,there's your understanding of
concepts, your tests, quizzes,whatever else, but 15% of a
(34:03):
hundred percent of your mark.
The rest of it is based onskills and building skills and
building critical thinking andproblem solving and all of that,
like other great stuff that goesinto your courses.
Katie (34:18):
Yeah, I, I think it's just rethinking it, getting out
of that traditional.
Assessment mindset and findingways to, to really pull on the
strengths of our students and,and get them talking and
thinking and interacting more.
Okay.
Rachel (34:31):
Well, I think that's a great place for us to wrap up
our conversation today.
And so what we'll do is we'llinclude any of the links or
resources we talked about heretoday in our show notes.
You can access our show notesfor this episode@edugals.com
slash 80.
That's edu G a ls.com/eighty.
Katie (34:53):
And if you like what you heard, feel free to share it
with a colleague or a friend,and don't forget to subscribe on
your favorite podcast app sothat you don't miss out on any
future content.
And as always,
Rachel (35:02):
we invite you to leave us feedback, so you can go on to
our flipgrid at edu.com/flipgridand leave us a video message
there.
Or you can go onto ourwebsite@edugals.com and leave us
a written
Katie (35:17):
response.
Thanks for listening and see younext week.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of our edu GS podcast.
Show notes for this episode areavailable@als.com.
That's E D U.
G A l s.com.
(35:39):
We'd also love to hear yourfeedback, so leave us a message
on our website,
Rachel (35:44):
and if you enjoyed what you heard, please subscribe and
consider leaving a rating orreview on your favorite podcast
app.
Until next time, keep beingawesome and try something new.
Welcome to the EDU gals podcast.
We are your co-hosts, RachelJohnson.
Katie (00:30):
I'm Katie Atwell.
We are here to bring you tipsand tricks to help you integrate
technology into your classroom.
Rachel (00:39):
In this episode, we are talking about asset versus
deficit mindset.
Katie (00:45):
Yeah.
So we'll go over some of ourobservations and then also share
some of our ideas on how we canshift away from this deficit
lens in education.
Let's get
Rachel (00:54):
started.
This week, Katie and I are hereto talk a bit about.
Mindsets and specifically theidea of an asset versus a
deficit mindset in ourclassrooms.
Yeah, so
we've
Katie (01:14):
kind of been chatting a bit and um, I think part of it
is my master's course right now.
Uh,'cause I'm doing educationfor students of refugee
background, uh, and then also inmy daily experience of teaching
English language learners andthis idea of how we approach
students and how we kind of lookat what they have to offer in a
positive light instead of.
(01:36):
What they don't have.
And so it kind of, um, it, it'sbrought up a few discussions
that we thought was worth
Rachel (01:43):
exploring.
Yeah.
'cause I think it's, it's notjust our English language
learners.
There's so many differentsituations where I see this kind
of language in this kind ofmindset.
So it's definitely a topic worthtalking about.
Yeah.
So for
Katie (01:57):
those listening, I, I mentioned to my partner this
morning what we were talkingabout, and he looked at me and
he was like, What are you eventalking about?
What does asset versus deficitmean?
So I, I kind of laughed.
Um, he always makes fun of allof Ed, you speak, but
essentially when you are.
Um, approaching students from anasset based lens, it means that
(02:18):
you're looking at what they'recoming in with as a strength and
how you can embrace that andhelp them move forward with high
expectations.
Whereas if you're approachingstudents from a deficit based
lens, it means that you'relooking at what they're lacking.
So you're, you're seeing theweaknesses and not what they
have to offer as strength.
Rachel (02:39):
Yeah, essentially this is C R R P, so culturally
relevant and responsivepedagogy.
And in fact, I was looking it upthis morning'cause I, I wanted
to make sure I got the threesort of areas of C R R P, right?
So there's high academicexpectations, cultural
competence, and criticalconsciousness.
And in within culturalcompetence, although I think it
(03:00):
applies to all pieces of C R RP, they actually talk about
having an asset-based approach.
In your teaching.
And so, yeah, like this is soimportant and it really is, is
that mindset shift of what areour students bringing to the
table and what strengths do theyhave and how can we leverage
(03:22):
those in our classrooms versusfocusing on the things that they
can't do.
And sticking them into thosebuckets of, you know, well,
they're a struggling learner, orthey're an English language
learner, or they're a SPEDstudent.
Like, we can't do that.
Katie (03:39):
No.
And, and I do want to say like,this isn't an attack on
teachers.
'cause to be honest, the waythat the education system is set
up, it is set up in such a waywhere it is so easy to look at
the deficits versus looking atthe whole student.
Rachel (03:53):
Oh, absolutely.
The way that
Katie (03:55):
we communicate IEPs, Student success profiles, even
like the step continuum forEnglish language learners, it
really does.
You know, it gets teachers tofocus more on what students
can't do and maybe some of theirweaknesses versus the strengths
that we can then use in ourclassroom.
So it is not an attack
Rachel (04:15):
at all.
No.
Even I'm, I'm thinking evengreats.
Grades are like really kind ofbased on that deficit mindset.
Like docking marks fromeverything that a student
doesn't know how to do in yourclassroom, or, you know, seeing
that 80% on a report card meansthey don't know 20% of what is
going on in your classroom.
Katie (04:36):
Even looking up a prior year's grade, like let's be
honest, like why are you lookingat last year's grade?
Why not figure out where they'reat now and what they know now
and what they can bring to yourclassroom.
Rachel (04:48):
Yeah, and and that's one of the things that's really kind
of changed in terms of mymindset going forward.
Like I am, I will no longer lookup grades for students in past
years because those grades,they're just, they're.
Okay, I'm gonna go on a bit of arant here probably, but there's
a snapshot in time of where astudent was learning at that
(05:11):
point in time.
It doesn't mean that that'swhere they're going to be this
year.
And there, there's so manydifferent extenuating
circumstances and factors thatgo into what that grade actually
means.
It's just a number.
I would rather go have aconversation with their teacher
from last year and talk about.
The strengths that the studentsare bringing to my classroom, I
(05:34):
feel like that information wouldbe so much more valuable.
And, and
Katie (05:38):
we also have to remember that, you know, students do
mature and they do get olderover time and they do kind of
figure out.
How school works and, and howthey fit into that structure.
So, you know, we do need to givethem time and give them space
and the benefit of the doubt.
So we need to do less of thetalking about, you know, maybe
(05:59):
some of the things theystruggled with and instead just
look at the student.
Like when I, and this is gonnasound crazy'cause I teach E S L,
but I don't look at their steplevels for the first couple of
weeks because I don't wanna knowhow somebody else has
interpreted their language.
You know, I take a couple ofweeks to actually figure out
where they're at individually tohelp inform my practice.
(06:21):
And then, you know, sometimesI'll look back if I'm like, this
seems off.
What did the last teacher think?
But even then, you know, I, Ihave a responsibility to teach
the kid in front of me.
I.
And so it doesn't matter whatsome report
Rachel (06:34):
has listed.
Yeah, I would say even thinkingabout, you know, those first
couple days in my chemistryclassroom and, and stuff that I
would do, I had one activitythat I still absolutely love and
I use over and over again to,depending on the year, it's
either who captured the chemistor who kidnapped the chemist.
(06:55):
And it, it's really kind of likea logic puzzle that has students
working in groups solvingchemistry problems, and then
each time they solve one, theyget a clue towards solving the
ultimate problem takes a fullperiod, at least to do.
And usually I have studentsworking in small groups.
And so from that activity, juston that first day of class, I
(07:18):
learned so much more about wherestudents are coming from, what
their kind of backgroundunderstanding is than ever
looking at a grade I.
Yeah.
And so,
Katie (07:28):
you know, one of the, the pieces of advice that I
typically give to, you know,mainstream content teachers, uh,
with respect to ELLs, and I knowit's very specific, but, you
know, not all multilinguallearners are in E S L
programming.
Uh, embrace their firstlanguage, embrace the home
language, like they, why not letthem brainstorm or do some of
(07:50):
the rough draft in their firstlanguage?
They're still demonstrating thatthinking process, et cetera.
And yes, You know, maybe it'snot easy for you to understand,
but you can quickly do a GoogleTranslate with a photo, um, and
it.
Translates everything so you canat least see how they're doing
in terms of, you know, thatprocess, but, you know, embrace
(08:11):
that first language and whatthey bring with them.
Rachel (08:14):
Absolutely.
That was one of the key kind ofthings that was highlighted
right at the beginning of when Itook my AQ for teaching English
language learners is, Making useof that first language and, you
know, kind of looking back andreflecting on what I've done
past practice.
I, I, I've never really thoughtof that until I learned that
(08:36):
myself.
So yeah, brainstorming in firstlanguage for stress and first
language, you know.
It, it's, it's not a deficitthat English isn't their first
language.
Katie (08:48):
No.
And, and there's so much thatthey bring to that, right?
So I mean, it means that theyhave the ability to actually
think and process these newconcepts in multiple languages.
That's actually reallyimpressive.
Uh, and I mean, the goal is toget them towards English, but
you know, it's not going tohappen overnight.
And we shouldn't expect that tohappen overnight.
And, and students still have aright to learn content.
(09:11):
Even though they may not havethe same level of English as
native born English speakers, soyou know, I think it's important
to kind of embrace it, let themwork through it.
And then help them build inthose like explicit vocabulary
lessons and skills, like helpthem attach the words in their
first language to English, likeas a science teacher, that is
(09:35):
your specialty, Rachel, likeyou, you know, the academic, you
know that vocabulary.
So just kind of help them attachit.
And then, you know, it makes abig difference.
I'm not saying you don't, I'msaying as an example.
Rachel (09:47):
Oh yeah, no, I get that.
And, uh, that, that kind ofreminds me of that one edu gif
that Jake Miller put out quite awhile ago now.
But how to use Google sheets toauto translate words like you
could really easily set that upfor any vocab in your courses
and show, show your students howto do those auto translations.
(10:08):
And, and that actually brings
Katie (10:09):
me to.
The school culture because byembracing the multilingual
learners that you have in yourschool community, you're
actually showing that you valuethat cultural diversity and that
linguistic diversity.
And in doing so, You create amuch more positive learning
environment for all students,and, and that in turn brings
(10:32):
about a more positive schoolcommunity who embraces the
differences instead of, youknow, criticizing or insulting.
I, I just think that, you know,if we have this positive school
community, students are gonna beproud of who they are.
They're gonna be more willing toshare.
And then it also creates anopportunity for parents to feel
(10:54):
comfortable and involved intheir students' learning.
I.
I don't know.
I feel like that's lacking infor a lot of our parents who
perhaps don't have the strongestEnglish, but we need to see that
as, you know, they're just apart of our community.
Let's get interpreters, let'sinvolve them still.
Like let's not exclude familieswho can't communicate.
Rachel (11:14):
Yeah, I mean that, that really is the goal of education,
right?
Is building relationships andbuilding a community and having
those connections with not onlyyour students, but also your
parents within the school,outside of the school.
So, yeah, I, I agree with all ofthat.
It's actually,
Katie (11:32):
it's one of my big.
Plans or projects for next yearis I need to get more parent
involvement and familyinvolvement because I feel like
parents aren't totallycomfortable in the conversations
I've had.
But I think there's some reallygreat ways to get to get parents
involved and to get them to comeinto the school and kind of see.
(11:53):
Where the learning happens andget comfortable with teachers
and, you know, start to ask thequestions that they have and see
how their role as parents canhelp support their students.
And, and that's really honestly,it, it may not seem as connected
to asset-based lens, but itreally is because that school
culture informs how comfortablestudents are in your classroom
(12:14):
and how brave they are to speakor use a term in their first
language, or even to admit, Thatthey are multilingual because
some are so afraid to admitthat.
Rachel (12:24):
Yeah.
And that's a real shame.
Yeah.
I think when we're talking aboutthis though too, it's, it's not
just our English languagelearners.
Like we, uh, you think about ourstudents with special education
needs, I.
You know, they're not SPEDstudents.
They are students who requireaccommodation within our
courses, and there's certainaccommodations that will help
them and will help bring out thestrengths that they have and,
(12:49):
and show off what they're ableto do.
Yeah.
Katie (12:51):
And I think there's a lot of learning that needs to happen
to make sure that we're actuallyembracing these, the all
learners really, and, andfinding ways to see it from a
strength-based approach.
Because I think we're so quickto see what they can't do versus
what they can,
Rachel (13:07):
and even thinking about de streaming next year.
Yeah.
And just some of theconversations and, and maybe I'm
picking up on it more this yearafter, after a ton of learning
that I've been doing around.
UN grading, grade list equity,um, all, all of those sort of
themes.
But I'm hearing the languagemore and more that's really
(13:29):
actually upsetting me anddisturbing me.
So, talking about in Ontario,we're, we're gonna be de
streaming.
All of our grade nine coursesnext year.
Now most of them are gonna beadopting the academic
curriculum.
Science is going to a fully Dstreamed new curriculum.
Math has already done that, buthaving conversations with people
(13:50):
around the science D streamedcourse for next year.
You know, just hearing thelanguage like, well, what are we
gonna do with the applied kitsversus the academic kits?
Ugh.
And just even that, it's just,it's, it's really frustrating me
and, and making me speak up andsay like, we, we can't be
thinking that way.
(14:11):
We have to have highexpectations that all of our
students are gonna be able tosucceed and achieve in, in these
courses.
And how are we going to thenstructure those courses to make
sure that.
We are meeting all of theirneeds.
Yeah.
We need to get
Katie (14:26):
rid of that, that language entirely.
Like who, who are you to decideand label which student is an
applied level learner and, andyou, you know what I mean?
Like, we're not streaminganymore.
That's the whole purpose.
We're not doing this.
We're not going to limit theirfuture possibilities because you
think of them as an appliedlearner.
Rachel (14:44):
Yeah.
And uh, one of the books I justfinished reading, uh, called
Going Grade List, it's DavidFranza and Elise Burns, Eloise
Burns, I, I, I forget what the,uh, the other author's name,
first name is, so I apologize.
But they even talk aboutlanguage in their book and
instead of using the wordstruggling student, they use
(15:06):
striving student.
And I love that switch inlanguage just automatically goes
from that.
Deficit mindset to anasset-based mindset.
Yeah.
Katie (15:16):
And, and that is something we need to get better
at, because I know in educationtraditionally we, we don't have
that positive language, butthat's a huge part in shifting
the way we speak and the way weapproach students is as simple
as striving versus struggling.
Like that's a great example.
Rachel (15:33):
Yeah.
And that, that one, you know,every and every time I came
across the word, I had to kindof stop and go, okay, like, I
understand what this means and,and trying to rethink about it
from an asset based mindset.
'cause I'm still learning myselfas well.
I don't admit that I have allthe answers and yeah, like it's,
it's just, it's such a sh ashift.
(15:55):
But now whenever I hear the wordstruggling student, it's
triggering me and it's making methink like, The language we use,
like this is actually harmfullanguage for these students, and
so we should be calling eachother out on the language.
Yeah.
Katie (16:11):
Hard to do, but it's, it's definitely needed and I'm,
I'm guilty of it too.
Like I've, I've used thatdeficit language quite often and
not really realizing it.
Right.
Because it we're just, it's soingrained in us.
Rachel (16:24):
Well, you think about like conversations that happen,
work in workrooms and staffworkrooms and just talking about
different students and wherethey're struggling and stuff.
Like the language that comes outcan be pretty darn deficit based
and I'm guilty of it.
And now that I kind of thinkback on some of those
conversations, I'm like, uh, youknow,'cause I've, I've done a
(16:46):
lot of learning since then.
But yeah, I, I.
I don't know.
I think it's, it's just aboutbringing it up every time you
kind of hear that language and,and saying something because
it's the only way we're gonnalearn.
Yeah.
Katie (17:00):
And, and to be honest, it's, it's becoming aware of the
language that is really thefirst step.
So, so by identifying it andbecoming aware when you're
hearing it or when you'respeaking it, that really is that
first step towards changing thelanguage and, and shifting to a
more asset-based approach versusalways looking at the struggle
or
Rachel (17:19):
the weakness.
Yeah, and so I think one reallygood clue that it's a deficit
based kind of language is whenyou're sticking students into
buckets like, oh, they're an E LL student, or they're a SPED
student, or they're an appliedkid, or they're, you know, they
always struggle.
Recognizing those buckets Ithink is probably a good first
(17:43):
step in thinking about, well, ohno, wait.
That's coming from a deficitbased mindset.
How can we switch it and flip itto an asset based mindset
instead?
No,
Katie (17:53):
definitely.
We, we definitely need to stopputting them into these
categories.
I mean, there is sometimes aneed for that, like when you're
talking about funding,programming, et cetera.
Sure, sure.
But, but we can't be.
Identifying studentsspecifically in our courses
based on perhaps anexceptionality.
Yeah.
Rachel (18:13):
Like even think like, oh, they're not a science kid.
Mm-hmm.
They're not a math kid, they'rebad at math.
You know, like even that is,Coming from a deficit based
mindset.
Yep.
Or
Katie (18:25):
they don't have what it takes to be in my course.
Right.
That happens, and I understandthe frustration as a teacher,
but I think that comes back to,you know, one of the things we
need in order to encourage anasset based approach in
education is professionaldevelopment.
We need targeted professionaldevelopment to help teachers
(18:46):
from where they are at.
And give them the tools that canhelp them be more successful in
reaching all
Rachel (18:53):
students.
Yeah, and I think, you know,the, the approaches to that
professional learning need to chshift and change too, because we
can't just, you know, all sit ina big room together and have
someone talk at us about assetversus deficit mindset and
language.
Like it needs to, there needs tobe good conversations and.
(19:15):
You know, the, the, thosediscussions between colleagues
and within departments, betweendifferent departments, it, it,
it's the only way you can learn.
I feel like there needs to besome sort of active piece of
learning where you're looking atyour courses and your materials
and your curriculum and, andpulling out that language and,
(19:37):
and really sort of doing thatself-examination.
Katie (19:40):
Yeah, and it also, You know, it has, it has to almost
be somewhat voluntary.
Like if somebody is totallyclosed off to this type of
professional development, you'rejust going to become more
frustrated and they're justgoing to become more defensive.
So I, I almost feel like.
We have to give space toteachers to kind of figure out
(20:00):
where they are at, give multipleopportunities, offer some like
reflective type questions to getthem thinking, but there needs
to be a readiness as well.
Yeah, and
Rachel (20:11):
I, and, and that is probably one of the, the big,
big sort of issues withprofessional learning is.
You know, someone from Higher Updecides this, that everybody is
ready for this learning.
And so we are going to do thislearning on this day at this
time.
And that's it.
And it, it goes back to mastery,right?
(20:34):
Yeah.
And so meeting
Katie (20:36):
people where they are at, yeah.
Rachel (20:39):
But.
It.
You're right.
It does need to come from aplace of readiness.
And I think, I think, and Iwonder, I, I think it kind of
starts with just sharing littlepieces of information and little
learnings.
Like I came across this onewebsite this morning as we were
before we recorded, and there'sthis like great two and a half
(21:02):
minute video.
Anyone can watch a two and ahalf minute minute video, or you
could show it in a staff meetingor whatever.
And it literally talks aboutwhat asset versus deficit
mindsets are.
And it was fantastic and it gotme thinking about other
situations and other scenarios.
So I think even just providingthose little prompting.
(21:23):
Pieces of learning that, youknow, don't take too long are
not too intensive, but kind of,I guess kind of poke at, I don't
know, different thinking.
Yeah.
Katie (21:35):
And, and, and from there, I think what will naturally
happen is you'll get those staffmembers who are ready for kind
of the learning and making somechanges and you work with them.
And then I do think naturally,It will grow, like staff members
will become ready as people aresharing, as people are kind of
(21:57):
showing what they're doing, uh,and kind of sharing some of the
good things that are happening.
As a result, it's, it's notgoing to be overnight.
I.
Like I, I am very well awarethat shifting from as or deficit
to asset is going to take time.
Yeah.
For
Rachel (22:12):
sure.
Katie and I are still learning.
Yeah.
And I still catch myself in adeficit mindset sometimes, and I
have to stop myself and go,okay, no, wait, no, we don't.
We don't, you know, we got, wegotta flip it and think of it
the other way.
We,
Katie (22:28):
we also are very much inundated with a deficit mindset
in the media, in, you know,magazines, in terms of
self-image, et cetera.
There's always negativity in howwe view ourselves, in how we
view others around us.
So being able to switch thatprofessionally is super
difficult because all of themessaging we receive is always
(22:50):
about what's wrong with peopleor what's wrong with you.
Versus what's great,
Rachel (22:55):
have you ever heard, and, and so that what you just
said sparked this for me, isthat our brains are actually
wired for negativity because,huh?
Our brains are designed toprotect us and keep us safe.
And so venturing out intosomething that's more unknown.
And this goes back to like ourcaveman days, right?
(23:15):
Where, you know, you, you get tolearn your lay of the land and
you know, where you're not gonnaget basically eaten by a tiger,
but venturing outside of thatsort of area, you, you don't
know.
And it's unknown and it'suncertain.
And so it, I don't, your braincontinuously puts you back into
that negativity kind of mindset.
(23:35):
Naturally.
Like this is part of our defenseme mechanism to make sure and,
and that we are protected andthat we're safe.
And it goes back to thatprehistoric kind of, kind of
time and our brains just haven'tdeveloped since then.
That's fascinating.
It is fascinating and, um, It'sreally kind of changed my
(23:57):
outlook on, on a lot of things.
Like I, I, I naturally focus ona lot of negative stuff and I, I
will admit, like I do stress outvery easily.
I do get a lot of anxiety andjust recognizing like, That this
is my brain.
Just trying to protect myselfhas done wonders for me in terms
(24:18):
of, of changing my thinking andchanging my outlook.
It's like, oh, okay.
Thanks brain.
Thanks for telling me that.
But that's not how it's going tohappen.
So just even recognizing thatlike I am definitely more vocal,
I will speak my mind.
Like I, I even threw out thisrant on Twitter the other day
(24:39):
about grades and, and what wason my mind.
I never would've done thatbefore.
But yeah, I guess where I'm, I'mkind of going to is I think it
starts with us.
Just talking about it and, andpointing things out and, and
saying something.
No, definitely.
Katie (24:55):
And, and it will happen over time.
The more you talk about it, itreally will.
And then it becomes part of yourpractice and then you share and
then it becomes part ofeverybody's practice, hopefully.
But, uh, yeah.
That's, that's fascinating.
I like that.
I kind of, it helps meunderstand better my natural
responses.
Rachel (25:16):
The brain is fascinating.
I mean, we're coming from ascience nerd perspective, right.
But I, I do, I I do really findhow our brains work and just
really, really interesting.
So,
Katie (25:29):
um, one of the strategies that I think.
Is an easy one to do thatanybody can do in any course is
taking the time to get to knowstudents.
And we'd say this all the time,but community building,
relationship building, learningmore about each individual
student to help inform your
Rachel (25:50):
practice.
Yeah, and so thinking aboutthat, then bringing in
conversations more into evenyour assessment practices.
So having those one-on-oneconferences with students as as
much as you can.
I know they take a lot of timeout of your class time, but they
are so worth it.
You learn so much more aboutyour students.
(26:12):
If you can just have a quickone-on-one conversation with
them than from anything else.
And,
Katie (26:17):
and sometimes, you know, when we look at students who are
absent a lot or who aren'tcompleting homework, et cetera,
like some of that, you know,immediately we wanna go to the,
oh, they're just skipping, or,oh, they're lazy, but you know,
have that conversation withthem.
You would be surprised howhonest they are and also what
(26:38):
some of these kids are carryingon their shoulders.
And they're walking in with on adaily basis because it's not all
hunky dory, so to speak.
Kids are struggling and dealingwith a lot.
Yeah.
Rachel (26:49):
Get curious, ask lots and lots of questions.
You know, try, try and, it'salmost like you're a detective,
right?
You're trying to figure out why,and, and so asking why is
probably the best question.
You can do,
Katie (27:04):
I mean like, don't prod too much.
'cause if there's traumaunderneath there, we don't wanna
be a trigger.
But at the same time, like just,you know, come from it, from a
supportive versus, you know, anaccusation lens.
Talk to them.
See how you can help.
The more trust there is betweena teacher student, the more
willing they are to be very openand honest with what's happening
(27:26):
in their lives.
And then, you know, that canhelp you understand, you know,
what you can do to support andperhaps.
What other supports are neededin this situation, because it's
not just on you as a classroomteacher.
We have social work supports.
We have, you know, certs, sospecial education resource
teachers.
We have the E S L lead if it'san English thing or something
(27:49):
going on, et cetera.
We, we have settlement supports,like we have so many different
people available in our schoolcommunity.
To make sure students can besuccessful.
Yeah,
Rachel (28:00):
and when I say get curious too, it also means not
just asking the studentsquestions, but going and talking
to other staff members who have,who've worked with that student
or currently working with thatstudent.
So like Katie's saying, reachout to the cert, if that makes
sense.
Or the e s l lead or theirguidance counselor.
(28:21):
They're a great resource andusually know a lot more about
what's going on in thatstudent's life than anybody else
in the school.
And they might not be able totell you everything, which is
fine, but they can at least giveyou some sort of hints or
suggestions.
Like, yes, this student isdealing with something very
traumatic and you know, here'show I might approach it.
(28:42):
And so you, you can get a lot ofreally, really VA valuable
information just from havingconversations with other
colleagues in your building.
Yeah.
Like
Katie (28:51):
it, it is amazing how many people there are to support
and, and there's, there'sdefinitely somebody who can help
you out.
So don't, don't see this as a, ayou problem alone.
It really isn't like it's, it's.
It's a community approach, andif we move away from these
siloed centers, so to speak,within a school and see it more
(29:11):
as a whole team approach, Ithink that.
That also is a great way tostart moving towards asset-based
approaches and, and utilizingeverybody on our team
Rachel (29:21):
for sure.
Break down the silos.
I see so many silos ineducation, even working in, in
the coaching capacity at theboard level.
Like there's, there's littlesilos for, for equity and for
special education and forcurriculum and planning and
just.
Yeah, collaborating with otherone another, breaking down those
(29:43):
silos and really understandingwhat everybody is doing is so,
so important.
Yeah.
We all have something
Katie (29:50):
to offer and you know, often when I reach out to
guidance or somebody else andthey give me a different
perspective, I'm like, oh yeah,I should try that.
You know, I should shift that alittle bit and see how, you
know, it's, we all really dohave a lot to offer to one
another.
Rachel (30:05):
So I think another sort of area that you could kind of
key in on and and focus on interms of thinking more from an
asset based mindset is aroundyour assessment and around your
assessment practices.
Um, so focusing more ondescriptive feedback that is
helpful for students than justwhether something's right or
(30:28):
wrong and
Katie (30:28):
making it tailored to them.
So, You know, if you know of astrength that they have that
perhaps they could use toimprove, you know, access that
so often, I'll tell my students,um, You didn't quite get the
understanding of this word, butyou know this, so let's kind of
build from here.
So use the language, you know,uh, use your first language, I
don't care.
(30:49):
Um, but it's just tailoringfeedback in such a way that
allows students to reallyimprove and, and access what
they do know and what theirstrengths are to get better.
Rachel (30:58):
I think it's also questioning about the type of
assessments you use as well.
So, I, I'm kind of thinking, youknow, giving a, a test, a test
actually is really kind of basedon a deficit mindset.
You know, how much do the kidsremember or know, or like, how
can I trip them up and see ifthey really understand it or
not?
And I.
(31:19):
So building that test, actually,uh, and, and I might, I, I don't
know if everyone agrees with meout there, but it, it's based on
finding the deficits in whatkids can't do versus what they
can do.
Whereas if you created somethinglike a portfolio, I.
That's definitely more assetbased.
It's how much have they learned,how much have they grown over
(31:40):
the course of time?
Katie (31:41):
Yeah, and I also find some tests are very rote based,
like it's very memorizationbased, which, let's be honest,
that doesn't show if theyunderstand a concept.
So like for my history, I didhistory for English language
learners.
We actually did interviews.
We had conversations abouthistory and, and how we can see
these events reflected in today,and it was amazing the
(32:04):
conversations that we had, and Iknow I wouldn't have been able
to get those details and thatthinking process if I had
limited it to
Rachel (32:12):
writing.
Yeah.
Even a few years ago I was.
Kind of playing around withproject-based learning in my
chemistry classroom and we hadstudents design their own
chemical batteries and thentheir, their sort of showcase
days was showing their batteryoff, um, seeing if it could
power a calculator for 30seconds.
(32:34):
That was their challenge andhaving a, a conversation with us
and to discuss to.
Us what was going on with thechemistry behind it.
And those conversations were somuch richer.
I mean, we still ended up havinga unit test after, but the unit
test, like thinking back on itnow, that was so useless and so
pointless.
Fine.
(32:54):
They need practice with that.
Those kinds of questions.
'cause it wasn't IB course andso, you know.
Ib, 80% of their grade is basedon writing a test, which is
ridiculous in itself.
But yeah, like thinking back onthat now, I learned more about
their understanding of thosechemical concepts from those
(33:15):
conversations than I ever didfrom their test.
It reflected on their tests,which was great.
Katie (33:20):
Yeah, no, so I, I think it just goes to show that we
need to kind of.
Change how we assess and youknow, maybe perhaps do a whole
bunch of different versions,like don't always stick to
writing.
You know, give some speakingopportunities, maybe even like a
recording, they can recordthemselves or create something,
get something that gets theminteracting with the material
(33:41):
more.
Even
Rachel (33:41):
looking at courses and the way that assessment is
broken down and laid out inOntario curriculum, like for
science courses, knowledge andunderstanding is, Maybe 15% of
the final mark, so okay, fine.
There's your rote learning,there's your understanding of
concepts, your tests, quizzes,whatever else, but 15% of a
(34:03):
hundred percent of your mark.
The rest of it is based onskills and building skills and
building critical thinking andproblem solving and all of that,
like other great stuff that goesinto your courses.
Katie (34:18):
Yeah, I, I think it's just rethinking it, getting out
of that traditional.
Assessment mindset and findingways to, to really pull on the
strengths of our students and,and get them talking and
thinking and interacting more.
Okay.
Rachel (34:31):
Well, I think that's a great place for us to wrap up
our conversation today.
And so what we'll do is we'llinclude any of the links or
resources we talked about heretoday in our show notes.
You can access our show notesfor this episode@edugals.com
slash 80.
That's edu G a ls.com/eighty.
Katie (34:53):
And if you like what you heard, feel free to share it
with a colleague or a friend,and don't forget to subscribe on
your favorite podcast app sothat you don't miss out on any
future content.
And as always,
Rachel (35:02):
we invite you to leave us feedback, so you can go on to
our flipgrid at edu.com/flipgridand leave us a video message
there.
Or you can go onto ourwebsite@edugals.com and leave us
a written
Katie (35:17):
response.
Thanks for listening and see younext week.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of our edu GS podcast.
Show notes for this episode areavailable@als.com.
That's E D U.
G A l s.com.
(35:39):
We'd also love to hear yourfeedback, so leave us a message
on our website,
Rachel (35:44):
and if you enjoyed what you heard, please subscribe and
consider leaving a rating orreview on your favorite podcast
app.
Until next time, keep beingawesome and try something new.
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