August 15, 2023 • 34 mins
This week, we are talking all about how to build buy-in for ungrading in your school community. We'll discuss ungrading buy-in strategies for various different stakeholders such as teachers, admin, parents, and most importantly, students. Let's start talking about ungrading!
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Featured Content
**For detailed show notes, please visit our website at https://edugals.com/97**
Teachers/Admin:
- Start with conversations about grading and grading practices
- Why aren't traditional grading practices working?
- Leverage opportunities informally in your workroom, more formally in department meetings
- Keep in mind - slow and deliberate changes towards ungrading (it's a spectrum)
- Many ways to ungrade (mastery, standards-based, feedback, etc)
- Focus on the feedback and learning over grades
- Look at printouts of marks for students, rubrics we're using (single point vs 4-level), success criteria, moderated marking
- Try to find common ground, team dynamics matter
- Rethinking Letter Grades - Conversation Cards
- Grades are very personal - Grading for Equity by Joe Feldman
- Share your own vulnerability
- Open your classroom space, share your ungrading practices
- Honour professional judgement
- Invite colleagues and admin into your classroom
- Keep your admin in the loop - let them know what you are doing with ungrading and be prepared with a plan
Parents:
- Parents are allies - need transparency, clear communication of grading practices
- Pitch/justify your why of ungrading - send out a newsletter early in the school year
- Mastery can start a strong parent-teacher relationship
- Start an FAQ document to share with parents, teachers, admin, etc - post on website, LMS, etc
Students:
- This is the trickiest group to build buy-in!
- Consider the language you use to talk about grading, assessment, and feedback
- Expect pushback - this takes a bit of time to learn
- Involve students in the grading practices
- Start with having a conversation in general about grading
- Have them track their progress with a portfolio
- Build in reflection opportunities
- Know that emotions can be high - some students might feel anxiety and stress
Connect with EduGals:
- Twitter @EduGals
- Rachel @dr_r_johnson
- Katie @KatieAttwell
- EduGals Website
- Support the show
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rachel (00:00):
I'm Kristi Hemmingway, host of Ed Curation, a part of
the Education Podcast Network.
Just like the show you'relistening to now, shows on the
network are individually ownedand opinions expressed, may not
reflect others.
Find other interesting educationpodcasts@edupodcastnetwork.com.
(00:25):
Welcome to the edu gals podcast.
We are your co-host, RachelJohnson
Katie (00:31):
and Katie Atwell.
We are here to bring you tipsand tricks to help you integrate
technology into your classroom.
Rachel (00:40):
In this episode, we are talking all about how to get
buy-in from various stakeholdersas you are planning for un
grading in your classroom.
Katie (00:51):
We will talk about teachers, administration,
parents, and most importantlystudents.
And how we can make this work.
Let's get started.
Rachel (01:07):
This week, Katie and I thought, you know, we're, we're
getting ready for a new schoolyear and so we thought we would
talk a little bit about how toget buy-in from various
different stakeholders whenyou're planning for un grading
because we are both.
Planning for at least some formof un grading in our classrooms.
(01:28):
Yeah, it
Katie (01:29):
is.
It's, it's a very challengingquestion because there's Ontario
grading and the requirements,we, we feel like we're kind of
boxed in, and so it kind ofbrings these questions to the
front and it makes teachershesitant.
And it makes parents hesitant tohear it.
And so we thought, why not chatabout it and kind of problem
solve through some of the issuesthat we're experiencing or
(01:51):
potentially will experience andkind of go from
Rachel (01:54):
there.
So I guess maybe we start withlike even how to even just.
Get started, like starting theconversation with your
colleagues, with your admin, andwith different staff in your
school, because I think that'skind of where it does need to
start is it needs to start withthose conversations around
(02:16):
grading and around our practicesabout.
Why they aren't necessarily thebest in the most effective ways
to come up with grades for ourstudents.
Katie (02:27):
Yeah.
And I think that this is kind ofwhere these, these movements or
these kind of pushes towards ungrading happen naturally,
particularly with colleagues.
Like when, when you're talkingin a workroom about, you know,
oh, so and so, you know, this istheir writing.
Look how terrible it's, butthey're not even reading my
feedback.
And yet we put a number on that.
(02:47):
And so I think it's one ofthose, you know, we have these
conversations so often that Ithink now people are starting to
realize the more we talk aboutit, well why are we marking it
then?
Like, why aren't we givingchances?
Yeah, so these conversationsthat are happening, I feel like
these are just kind of fuel tothe fire as to why our
traditional grading practicesaren't working.
(03:10):
Like it's tar, it's time tostart rethinking it and you
know, how can we make thefeedback more meaningful and
purposeful and, and a way forstudents to actually.
Improve and want to improve,like where's the motivation?
Rachel (03:25):
Yeah, I think, like you said, leveraging those
opportunities.
Whenever you hear that commentin your workroom and it's
something about how, you know,marking sucks or.
How students are not looking atfeedback or like, there's so
many different complaints thatyou hear about greeting when
(03:46):
you're sitting in a, in aworkroom with other teachers.
Like those are kind of the bestplaces to just have that natural
kind of organic conversationabout grading and about our
practices.
Katie (04:00):
Yeah, and, and.
Just as a disclaimer, like Idon't think un grading is an all
or nothing approach.
I, I really do think thatthere's room for, um, you know,
slow but deliberate changes tohelp support the learning of our
students.
I don't think it has to gocompletely un grading.
I do really think there's,there's a spectrum and I think
it's all about, you know,finding where you are, what is
(04:22):
and isn't working in yourclassroom, and then moving along
that spectrum to furtherimprove.
Student achievement.
Rachel (04:29):
Yeah, totally.
And un grading is, it's more, Ithink, more of a mindset than it
is about a specific certainpractice that you are doing
because there are so many waysto un grade.
So it could look like doingsomething that's mastery based
grading.
(04:49):
You know that is considered aform of un grading or doing
standards-based grading orlooking at competencies and
doing that sort of thing all theway to the other end of the
spectrum where it is literallyall just feedback conversations
with students and collaboratingon coming up with a grade when
you need to there.
(05:10):
There's such a huge spectrum ofwhat is considered to be un
grading, and so it's really.
I guess it's really about thatapproach of how can we focus
more on the learning and thefeedback than about the grade
itself.
Katie (05:27):
I, and that's, that's kind of where I see us moving,
right?
So it's, you know, we don't haveto go all the way to that end of
the spectrum where it's like noassigned grain until the end.
But I do think it's worth, youknow, rethinking and looking at
what we do.
Um, because I think there's alot of, there's a lot of wiggle
room that we have.
Even within a very traditionaleducation system, you do have
(05:52):
quite a bit of autonomy and,and, and wiggle room to kind of
make some of these changes.
Rachel (05:56):
So kind of going along that line as well.
Then, if, especially when you'rein a leadership position, like
both Katie and I are leveragingsome of that time you have with
your departments as well, sodepartment meetings, you know,
are.
Our board tells us that weshould be having one every
month.
Usually they're what?
(06:16):
Every third Monday or somethinglike that of the month.
And you know, kind of assigninga little bit of that time for
those department meetings tohave some of those discussions
around assessment and evaluationI think is also a nice place in
a natural place for thoseconversations to come up.
So it could even be somethingsimple as just looking at the a
hundred point scale and.
(06:38):
Why it's, it's so skewed towardsfailure and what happens when a
student gets a zero and how mucheffort it takes, right.
To come back from that zero.
Yeah, no, that's, that's a toughone.
Yeah.
And so it could even look likejust taking a look at printouts
of our mark books and.
(07:00):
You know, looking at studentsand looking at really kind of
looking at the data and, andasking ourselves like, are we
setting our students up forsuccess?
And it
Katie (07:09):
almost comes down to, let's look at the rubrics we're
using and let's talk about, youknow, what they're telling
students.
I've stopped using a a fourlevel rubric because I would
much rather have successcriteria.
Um, and then give studentsfeedback based on each of those
different success criteria as tohow they're, they're approaching
(07:32):
kind of that, that checklist orgoal in their work.
And, and I think that has becomeway more helpful.
I.
Because I have students where ifI say, oh, you're not yet there,
and then I put a comment, itactually starts a conversation.
Whereas if I have my four levelrubric, they're like, okay,
there's my mark, whatever.
(07:53):
I'm gonna put this in therecycling bin now.
Rachel (07:55):
It's kind of funny that you say that'cause I was very
much a su success criteria kindof person and steering away from
rubrics and I'm, I'm actuallyskewing the other way in terms
of my thinking.
So we talked about this in, in acouple of episodes ago, but
creating these mastery rubricsthat are just based on a three
(08:15):
point scale, but give adescription of what that skill
looks like at each of thoselevels.
So that's sort of where I'vebeen going with my journey.
I don't know how well that'sgoing to work though, but it's
something that, you know, I'mreally, really proud that our
team has come up with agreedwith, you know, it's, it's hard
to sometimes be able to agree onsomething that everybody is okay
(08:41):
with.
Katie (08:41):
No, it is.
And, and we all kind of.
Teach differently and markdifferently and approach things
differently so it, so it is hardto find a single system that
will work for everybody.
But if you can, it's worth it,right?
Like if you can find, you knowthat that core team of teachers
that really jive well and canshare their ideas and create
(09:03):
something together, it reallydoes change
Rachel (09:05):
the dynamic.
Now, I also came across thisresource in a book that I read
recently.
It's called Rethinking LetterGrades.
And you know, it, it was okay.
It was, it's a super, supershort read, so I wouldn't.
I like just get, um, electroniccopy of it if you can.
But, um, at the very back theyhad a set of conversation cards,
(09:27):
which I thought was really neat.
So there are just a bunch ofdifferent prompts to get you
talking and discussing.
Areas of grading and what thatlooks like.
So for example, there's one thatsays, what's an A?
In BC it's 86 to a hundred.
In Ontario it's 80 to a hundred.
In Maine it's 90 to a hundred.
So what is an A?
(09:49):
Is it an 80, an 86, a 90?
Like what is it?
And I, I love these conversationcards and I actually wanna kind
of cut them out, maybe use themin some of our.
Department time next year,because they do kind of get you
really thinking about your, yourapproach and your practices.
Yeah,
Katie (10:09):
I, I really don't like level, like, like those letter
grades rather.
Um, I find them very deceiving,but, um, I think it's, it's
worth, you know, have theconversations with your
colleagues.
You'd be surprised.
Everybody struggles withmarking.
Even marking together, likegoing over an assignment in your
(10:29):
course teams and marking themtogether and, you know, figuring
out, you know, what do you lookfor versus what do I look for,
et cetera.
Um, and how can we make thefeedback meaningful and how can
we make sure that we are in linewith one another?
Rachel (10:45):
One point that I kind of wanna pick up on, That that you
sort of mentioned there is thateverybody does have that
different approach to gradingand that different sort of
thinking around grading.
And that reminds me of part ofthe grading for equity book by
Joe Feldman, where he kind oftalks about.
(11:05):
How grading is so personal toteachers and one of the reasons
why it's so tricky to have thoseconversations around grading and
why it's hard to change mindsetsthere is because grading is one
of those places in teachingwhere we still have a lot of
autonomy.
Yeah, no, it's true.
We don't have an awful lot ofautonomy in, in many other sort
(11:28):
of aspects of teaching, butgrading is something that you
can.
You, you, you have a lot ofautonomy over.
Katie (11:36):
No, and, and it's also, I find that, uh, many of us and
and myself included, becomereally defensive around grading
or how we are markingassignments or giving feedback,
assessing, et cetera.
Um, because it, it does feelmore personal, like, like to me,
I feel like the way I assess islike a personal conversation
(11:57):
between me and students.
And so it, it, even for me, it'shard for me to let somebody in
on that conversation to tell methat I'm not doing it right or
that they don't agree.
It, it is a very deeply personalprocess, right?
Like marking and assessing.
It really is.
And I
Rachel (12:14):
think so then having that understanding of how
personal it is for every singleperson as you're trying to
create, buy-in for somethingthat, you know, many people may
not agree with.
It's, it's just good having thatsort of understanding and
knowing that it is personal andthat it can feel like a personal
(12:34):
attack on your professionaljudgment.
Right, because that's kind ofwhere, where it comes down to
is, is a lot of assessment isprofessional judgment.
And like I said, it's that onearea that you still are allowed
to exercise a lot of yourprofessional judgment.
A lot of other things ineducation are already decided
for us.
(12:55):
So I don't know, just.
Just having that sort of frameof mind and that frame of
reference as you're trying tobuild that buy-in is just so, so
important.
Yeah, and you can share
Katie (13:06):
that vulnerability with your team.
I actually feel like byadmitting how vulnerable that
makes you feel to have otherpeople kind of put you under a
microscope and then look atyour, your assessment practices.
Others are feeling the same way,but nobody wants to admit that.
They don't feel comfortable withit, like who does, right?
So, but admitting it, I think isone of the first steps.
(13:28):
So if you are like a departmenthead or a leader in a course
team, like be very frank, behonest with one another, because
that's how you're gonna buildthose relationships and.
And really make some of themeaningful work happen
Rachel (13:41):
naturally.
I kind of giggle a little bitbecause yeah, I, I'm super,
super vulnerable when I havethose conversations with my
team.
So as we're kind of talkingabout what this might look like
in Great Nine Science for nextyear.
I basically tell them, you know,here's the idea.
I don't know if this is gonnawork great.
(14:01):
Like, let's try it.
Know that as we go through it,there will be growing pains and
that's okay.
We'll improve it as we go andwe'll learn as we go.
And so, sort of likeestablishing that culture of.
It's okay if it's not perfect.
And so
Katie (14:20):
in terms of getting some buy-in, like I know we've, we've
talked about some of theseconversations.
I would say, you know, open yourclassroom space show, show your
colleagues how you mark or ungrade, whatever it is that
however it is that you're movingalong that continuum.
But, but make it something thatthey can see and ask questions
(14:40):
about.
Um, and don't, not everybody hasto do everything all at once.
And I think there is this.
You know, we do have to let goof it and, and remember that
professional judgment isimportant and that we all have
that, right?
So as a teacher, at the end ofthe day, it is up to you, but
it's, it's moving forward as ateam.
And, and respecting where peopleare at and how we can move
(15:04):
everybody forward from thatpoint.
Yeah,
Rachel (15:07):
I love that.
And that's, that's sort of oneof my sort of thinkings for next
year is sharing that process of,as we kind of go and progress
with this grade nine course,sharing it with the rest of the
department so they can kind oflearn along in our journey as
well and see what we're doingand, you know, get a feel for.
(15:28):
What it is without having tofully commit to doing anything
UN grading.
Like I don't, I have noexpectations of everybody else
doing a mastery based approachin their courses.
I just, I kind of wanna exposethem to it and help them learn a
little bit and then see.
You know how it's going tobenefit students and, and so
(15:50):
invite
Katie (15:50):
people into your classroom.
I remember the first time I hadsomebody come to my classroom
and it was, I was so scared it,it honestly made me feel so
vulnerable again.
Like it's, it's hard to putyourself out there and let
people watch you and, and seewhat you do because you're
always afraid of criticism.
But it's a good conversation.
It's a good way to kind of, youknow, get feedback as to what
(16:13):
people see and, and what theythink should change or, or even
how, you know, opening thatconversation up to say how they
can start to change if they wantto take on whatever it is that
you're doing in your classroom,but invite people in.
It does amazing things.
Rachel (16:29):
I think that also then ties in nicely to getting buy-in
from your administrators.
Because you can invite youradministrators in as well.
I think that is one thing.
You know, they are super busyand they might not be able to
come in, but if they can thenbe, for them to be able to see
what you're putting intopractice is gonna really help
(16:52):
them be able to have your back.
If, for example, parents areasking a lot of questions or.
Are concerns about some of thepractices that are going on in
your classroom.
Katie (17:05):
And, and on that note, make sure your admin are aware
if you are moving towards ungrading practices, because this
is not something that you justlet them find out on their own.
Admin can only have your back ifthey know what you're doing and
you have these conversationswith them to justify it to make
sure that you know we're doingit properly.
(17:26):
Because they are experts aswell, and they can give us
advice from the parentperspective, from the actual
grading perspective to make sureit lines up with, uh, what we
need to be doing as teachers.
And so think of them as part ofyour grading team or your course
teams and make sure that theyare in
Rachel (17:42):
the loop as well.
And that's why I brought upadministrators.
So I'm really glad you broughtup that point, Katie, because
yes, having those conversations,start them early, have them
frequently, You know, make surethat they're in the loop.
Yeah.
They need to be.
Yeah.
In, in terms of the planningthat we've done as as a team,
you know, those conversationsstarted with my admin probably
(18:06):
like last January, and I've beenjust kind of like trying to keep
them in the loop of how thingshave been developing and how
they've been going.
Now, I would say when you go andhave those conversations with
your admin, Make sure that yourideas around what you're
planning for un grading arereally crystal clear before you
(18:27):
go have those conversations.
'cause there will be a lot ofquestions.
Katie (18:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like you really need to makesure you have it planned out
well.
Um, and that it's something thatis tangible that they can see
and understand and see how theprogress will be marked and,
and, How students can have thoseopportunities to improve.
And then also, you know, stillcome up with that grade at the
end of a
Rachel (18:49):
course.
And don't be afraid to ask forpermission to do something
that's not typical, like nottraditional.
So, You know, I haven't had thisconversation yet with my admin,
so if they're listening, maybethey're gonna hear it on the
podcast first.
They know it's coming, so it'sokay.
(19:10):
Um, but, you know, I kind ofwanna ask for permission because
we're doing a mastery basedapproach.
Like, I wanna put things ineither differently into our mark
reporting system, or I kind ofdon't wanna use our mark
reporting system at all in I, inan ideal world, now I have
plans.
In my head in terms of what Ican use and how I can set it up
(19:32):
in a variety of different ways,depending on how far I can push
that boundary.
But knowing that and knowingthat I have a few plans in place
can help me sort of figure outwhere.
Where that boundary is for usand for our team, but I've had
to plan that out so much in myhead first before I go and have
(19:54):
those conversations.
So I'm making sure I'm armingmyself with all the information
and all of the documents to say,look like, here's where we're
hitting all the expectations andthe curriculum.
Here's where we're.
Hitting those categories interms of grading that is
traditional for Ontario grades.
(20:14):
So just like being really wellarmed with that information
before you go into thoseconversations is just so, so
crucial.
Yeah.
Katie (20:23):
And it's funny because I have a huge changeover in admin.
Rachel (20:28):
I know, but you are getting amazing admin, so you,
you're, you'll be fine.
Katie (20:32):
We are, but I haven't had the conversation yet.
I haven't been able to actuallyconnect and say, this is what
we're doing and I'm about to goaway, and so I have to figure
out the timing and, and whatnotto make sure I can make, I want
everybody on the same page.
I don't wanna surprise anybody.
I don't want any sort of like,what the heck is happening here,
(20:55):
because mastery-based E s L is,uh, very, very different.
And, and we are changing itdrastically and we've been
working hard on it all year tokind of get to this point.
But yeah, no have theconversations as I tell myself
that.
Rachel (21:13):
And so as you were kind of talking there, I think that's
segues nice into no surprises.
In terms of your parents as
Katie (21:21):
well?
Yes, and I, and I think parentsare, are great allies to have
and we need to see them asallies.
I know in high school we oftenthink, you know, they're
teenagers, whatever, like.
We can make this work.
They should be responsible fortheir, for their understanding
of the course, et cetera.
But parents are great allies andif you can clearly explain and,
(21:42):
and this is what it comes downto, you need it to be very
transparent.
You need to make sure you'reexplaining to parents, this is
how your student is going to geta grade this semester.
We are not going to mark everysingle thing.
We're looking at feedbackcycles, et cetera, actual
qualitative feedback that willallow them to further develop
(22:05):
their skills.
And then from there, this is howI'm going to come up with that
number, or letter grade at theend, or the middle of the
semester, et cetera.
But it really is transparencyand you need to make sure you
lay out, you know, almostjustify it.
It's almost like you're doing apitch.
It's a sales pitch.
Rachel (22:25):
It is a sales pitch, and it's something that I think you
send out in the first week ortwo of school, maybe not the
first week, maybe like thesecond week, just to let the
dust settle as we're kind ofgetting back into things.
But even, you know, secondary,sending out a newsletter to your
parents.
Of your students explaining yourassessment approaches and how
(22:48):
things are going to work forthat semester is gonna go a
long, long way.
And I think once you kind ofexplain it to parents,
especially like both Katie and Iare doing a mastery-based
approach to our UN grading, andI think once that's sort of
explained to parents, like, Hey,you're going to know.
(23:09):
What your student knows andwhere they need to improve, like
exactly what they need toimprove versus, you know, they
got an 86 on a test and so theyknow, you know, they don't know
14% of it, but I couldn't tellyou what that 14% is.
They just need to study harder.
Like parents don't wanna hearthat, right?
No.
So I feel like once they reallyunderstand, oh, like they could
(23:34):
focus on this topic, like thisis where their learning is
lacking.
And where, where they need tostrengthen their skills, that
you will get that buy-in.
And it's also
Katie (23:44):
a good conversation starter with parents because
then you know, as you're givingfeedback, Parents may then have
some questions for you, or like,how can they support their
student at home, um, et cetera.
So it could actually start apretty strong parent-teacher
relationship, which, which to meis actually a great benefit.
Like, it, it's, it's really niceto have parents who are on board
(24:06):
and willing to have thesedifficult conversations about,
you know, how, how they cansupport their kiddo to get, to
get better and to improve and,and to see that progress.
I
Rachel (24:16):
think another strategy as you're kind of thinking about
all of this on grading stuff is.
Every time you get questionsabout what you're doing and
about your approach is create anF a Q document.
So collect those questions andtype out answers.
Like maybe even do it as a teamin a Google Doc that you're
(24:36):
collaborating on and justpopulating it with those
questions in answers as you'rekind of going through, because
then you could use that documentto share with.
Colleagues, you can use it toshare with parents, you can use
it to share with admin.
Like there are so many ways thatthat could be used.
And as I say this, I'm like, Ineed to create an f a Q
(24:57):
document.
I do not have one, but I, I'mthinking like, wow, what a great
resource that would be as westart this journey.
Yeah.
And.
Katie (25:07):
Usually schools have a website.
I'm actually debating putting uplike my newsletter slash my FAQs
right on our department website.
That way, you know, it'ssomething that they can navigate
to and check as I update in realtime.
And then it's kind of like I, Iwant everything to be very
transparent.
Like I don't
Rachel (25:25):
want any surprises.
I agree.
So putting them up on yourwebsite's.
Good.
Also, making sure they're postedin your learning management
system for students to easilyaccess.
'cause a lot of parents do takea look at their students'
learning management system aswell, like as many places.
I feel like that you can betransparent and include any
(25:46):
information that you can.
You know, maybe even creating ascreencast to go along with it,
explaining what you're doing andwhy you're doing it.
Katie (25:55):
And so I think the last kind of group of stakeholders
that's important to consider ourstudents probably the most
important.
How do we get students to buyinto a system?
Of
Rachel (26:08):
UN grading.
That's, that's a probably, Iwould say this is the group that
is like the toughest, becauseyou can explain benefits of un
grading to, to your colleagues,to your admin, to your parents,
and they'll get it.
But students have.
Almost being conditioned intothis mindset of what school is
(26:29):
and what school should be andthat they, you know, they
produce work, they get points.
You know, it's that system ofexchange that happens in a
classroom.
And so when you change that,that's a big mindset shift for
them.
Katie (26:44):
Yes.
And if you're one of the onlyclasses changing that, it also
becomes tough because where'sthe buy-in to do the work?
That's probably one of thethings I've realized the most.
So I've been doing more feedbackcycles before I actually do any
sort of grading, and my studentsare always like, well, are you
gonna mark it?
Is this for Marx?
Is this for Marx?
I was like, no, it's forfeedback so that when I do mark
(27:05):
it, you know you're gonna doreally well on it.
And, and they like that, butthey don't like having to
actually do the work initially.
It's hard for them to get thatbuy-in.
So I
Rachel (27:17):
guess some, some of the things you could do is.
You know, thinking about thelanguage that you use with your
students, instead of saying,submit this assignment, you can
invite them to share it withyou.
Uh, instead of talking aboutgrades, you talk about the
learning, and you always bringit back to the learning.
Well, I.
They might say, well, what gradedid I get on this?
(27:38):
And you're like, no, what didyou learn from this?
And, and try and switch thoseconversations.
You know, the more you focus onthat feedback and that learning
piece, the less the focus willbe on the grades and it will be
a learning curve, and that'sokay.
It will take a bit of time and abit of getting used to.
(27:58):
You will get pushback at thebeginning.
I am certain of that.
Expect it, you know, for atleast the first month and then
things will, should calm downafter that point.
Katie (28:11):
And it's almost worth having them when they ask, you
know, what would I get on this?
Say, what do you think you wouldget on this?
Let's look at the successcriteria.
Let's look at what you did anddid not do.
And why don't you try to put anumber grade, like if you were
the teacher, what would you giveyourself?
That usually scares them, but,but, but they do actually think
(28:35):
about it.
And I think that that's part ofthe process, right?
Like, I think an important.
Part of grading is that studentsunderstand where that grade
comes from.
And so that could actually be avery powerful practice where
you're having them, you know, ifthey really wanna know a number
grade.
If I were to mark then and therelike, let, let's do this
together.
Like I want you to look at allof the CRI criteria.
(28:57):
What did you do?
What didn't you do?
What are you on your way tobeing able to accomplish, but
you're just not there yet?
And, and how would you put anumber to that?
How would you mark it?
Because it's a really goodconversation.
It really
Rachel (29:08):
is.
And I think opening up theconversation around grading in
general is also a great place toget buy-in from your students.
So, you know, don't be afraid toask them.
Can you think of a time whereyou got a grade that you thought
was unfair or that, you know, ifyou got a bad grade, how did it
make you feel?
And, you know, kind of dive intosome of those.
(29:31):
I guess like the mindset piecesaround grading and around how it
impacts how we learn.
It's gonna go a long way interms of getting buy-in for your
students'cause it's gonna buildthat understanding and the why
of why we shouldn't focus on thegrade and why we should focus on
the learning and the feedback.
And
Katie (29:49):
it's, and it's almost worth, like, what I've been
having my students do this yearis to keep all of their
attempts.
And all of kind of these, thesedifferent, um, tasks that we're
doing before I ever markanything.
And then I have them look attheir first attempt versus the
one that they end up submittingfor Marks.
And then it's actually kind of aneat way to get them to, to see
(30:13):
where they started from andwhere they are now.
Because often that can be kindof eye-opening for them to say,
oh yeah, you're right.
Like, look, I started off and itwas really not that great.
Like, look how weak my writingis.
And then look what I did here.
Like I can actually see thedifferent parts of my writing.
And having those examples andlike the actual things that
they've done is awesome.
(30:35):
So portfolios are great.
Like have them do that.
Why not?
Rachel (30:39):
I guess the one sort of last place that you could start
building some buy-in fromstudents is focusing on building
in a lot of reflection into.
Your day-to-day and yourcourses.
So reflecting on the learningprocess and uh, you know, how
you're doing and how you'replanning for things, like just
(31:01):
really that sort of piece is, isalso gonna build awareness
around.
How, you know, how you end updoing things relates to grades
and, and so yeah, building inthose reflection opportunities
for students is gonna go a longway as well.
Katie (31:19):
Yeah, and, and I think that's where some of the buy-in
from students comes too, right?
So if they can actually thinkabout their learning and how
they're developing, I think ithelps them understand and know
kind of how.
UN grading is going and, and howtheir skills
Rachel (31:35):
are developing.
And then I guess just kind of bemindful.
Like you, you might havestudents who not getting grades
is gonna feel very anxious forthem and stress them out quite a
bit.
I, we've talked about this alittle bit before, right?
We've experienced courses wherewe haven't gotten grades and it
can be in anxiety inducing interms of not knowing where you
(31:58):
stand.
So, Just making sure that yourdoor is open, that you're having
those conversations consistentlywith students, especially when
they are anxious around grades,is gonna really like it.
It's gonna help support them asthey start to try and shift
their mindsets as well.
(32:18):
So, yes.
So
Katie (32:19):
the biggest kind of takeaway here is.
Get everybody on board, be onthe same page.
Communication is key.
Um, and just make sure thateverybody knows where they're
moving towards and, and whatyour goals are, because I think
that's the only way to kind ofmove with un grading and, and to
try new things.
But give yourself a break.
(32:40):
It doesn't have to be all ornothing.
Just do small little steps.
Rachel (32:44):
Yeah, small changes will eventually lead to big impacts.
So on that note, uh, we aregoing to wrap up our
conversation here for today.
Uh, you can access our shownotes@als.com slash nine seven
for this episode.
That's edu g a lss.com/nine
Katie (33:04):
seven.
And if you like what you heardtoday, then please feel free to
share it with a friend or acolleague.
And don't forget to subscribe onyour favorite podcast app so
that you don't miss out on anyfuture content.
And
Rachel (33:15):
as always, we invite you to leave us.
Feedback.
So if you'd like to go onto ourFlipgrid, I still wanna call it
Flipgrid, uh, at edugals.com/flipgrid, you can leave
us a video message there, or youcan go on our
website@edugals.com and leave usa written reply.
Katie (33:33):
Thanks for listening.
See you next week.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of our edu Gals podcast.
Show notes for this episode areavailable@edugals.com.
That's e d.
G A l s.com.
(33:55):
We'd also love to hear yourfeedback, so leave us a message
on our website,
Rachel (34:00):
and if you enjoyed what you heard, please subscribe and
consider leaving a rating orreview on your favorite podcast
app.
Until next time, keep beingawesome and try something new.
I'm Kristi Hemmingway, host of Ed Curation, a part of
the Education Podcast Network.
Just like the show you'relistening to now, shows on the
network are individually ownedand opinions expressed, may not
reflect others.
Find other interesting educationpodcasts@edupodcastnetwork.com.
(00:25):
Welcome to the edu gals podcast.
We are your co-host, RachelJohnson
Katie (00:31):
and Katie Atwell.
We are here to bring you tipsand tricks to help you integrate
technology into your classroom.
Rachel (00:40):
In this episode, we are talking all about how to get
buy-in from various stakeholdersas you are planning for un
grading in your classroom.
Katie (00:51):
We will talk about teachers, administration,
parents, and most importantlystudents.
And how we can make this work.
Let's get started.
Rachel (01:07):
This week, Katie and I thought, you know, we're, we're
getting ready for a new schoolyear and so we thought we would
talk a little bit about how toget buy-in from various
different stakeholders whenyou're planning for un grading
because we are both.
Planning for at least some formof un grading in our classrooms.
(01:28):
Yeah, it
Katie (01:29):
is.
It's, it's a very challengingquestion because there's Ontario
grading and the requirements,we, we feel like we're kind of
boxed in, and so it kind ofbrings these questions to the
front and it makes teachershesitant.
And it makes parents hesitant tohear it.
And so we thought, why not chatabout it and kind of problem
solve through some of the issuesthat we're experiencing or
(01:51):
potentially will experience andkind of go from
Rachel (01:54):
there.
So I guess maybe we start withlike even how to even just.
Get started, like starting theconversation with your
colleagues, with your admin, andwith different staff in your
school, because I think that'skind of where it does need to
start is it needs to start withthose conversations around
(02:16):
grading and around our practicesabout.
Why they aren't necessarily thebest in the most effective ways
to come up with grades for ourstudents.
Katie (02:27):
Yeah.
And I think that this is kind ofwhere these, these movements or
these kind of pushes towards ungrading happen naturally,
particularly with colleagues.
Like when, when you're talkingin a workroom about, you know,
oh, so and so, you know, this istheir writing.
Look how terrible it's, butthey're not even reading my
feedback.
And yet we put a number on that.
(02:47):
And so I think it's one ofthose, you know, we have these
conversations so often that Ithink now people are starting to
realize the more we talk aboutit, well why are we marking it
then?
Like, why aren't we givingchances?
Yeah, so these conversationsthat are happening, I feel like
these are just kind of fuel tothe fire as to why our
traditional grading practicesaren't working.
(03:10):
Like it's tar, it's time tostart rethinking it and you
know, how can we make thefeedback more meaningful and
purposeful and, and a way forstudents to actually.
Improve and want to improve,like where's the motivation?
Rachel (03:25):
Yeah, I think, like you said, leveraging those
opportunities.
Whenever you hear that commentin your workroom and it's
something about how, you know,marking sucks or.
How students are not looking atfeedback or like, there's so
many different complaints thatyou hear about greeting when
(03:46):
you're sitting in a, in aworkroom with other teachers.
Like those are kind of the bestplaces to just have that natural
kind of organic conversationabout grading and about our
practices.
Katie (04:00):
Yeah, and, and.
Just as a disclaimer, like Idon't think un grading is an all
or nothing approach.
I, I really do think thatthere's room for, um, you know,
slow but deliberate changes tohelp support the learning of our
students.
I don't think it has to gocompletely un grading.
I do really think there's,there's a spectrum and I think
it's all about, you know,finding where you are, what is
(04:22):
and isn't working in yourclassroom, and then moving along
that spectrum to furtherimprove.
Student achievement.
Rachel (04:29):
Yeah, totally.
And un grading is, it's more, Ithink, more of a mindset than it
is about a specific certainpractice that you are doing
because there are so many waysto un grade.
So it could look like doingsomething that's mastery based
grading.
(04:49):
You know that is considered aform of un grading or doing
standards-based grading orlooking at competencies and
doing that sort of thing all theway to the other end of the
spectrum where it is literallyall just feedback conversations
with students and collaboratingon coming up with a grade when
you need to there.
(05:10):
There's such a huge spectrum ofwhat is considered to be un
grading, and so it's really.
I guess it's really about thatapproach of how can we focus
more on the learning and thefeedback than about the grade
itself.
Katie (05:27):
I, and that's, that's kind of where I see us moving,
right?
So it's, you know, we don't haveto go all the way to that end of
the spectrum where it's like noassigned grain until the end.
But I do think it's worth, youknow, rethinking and looking at
what we do.
Um, because I think there's alot of, there's a lot of wiggle
room that we have.
Even within a very traditionaleducation system, you do have
(05:52):
quite a bit of autonomy and,and, and wiggle room to kind of
make some of these changes.
Rachel (05:56):
So kind of going along that line as well.
Then, if, especially when you'rein a leadership position, like
both Katie and I are leveragingsome of that time you have with
your departments as well, sodepartment meetings, you know,
are.
Our board tells us that weshould be having one every
month.
Usually they're what?
(06:16):
Every third Monday or somethinglike that of the month.
And you know, kind of assigninga little bit of that time for
those department meetings tohave some of those discussions
around assessment and evaluationI think is also a nice place in
a natural place for thoseconversations to come up.
So it could even be somethingsimple as just looking at the a
hundred point scale and.
(06:38):
Why it's, it's so skewed towardsfailure and what happens when a
student gets a zero and how mucheffort it takes, right.
To come back from that zero.
Yeah, no, that's, that's a toughone.
Yeah.
And so it could even look likejust taking a look at printouts
of our mark books and.
(07:00):
You know, looking at studentsand looking at really kind of
looking at the data and, andasking ourselves like, are we
setting our students up forsuccess?
And it
Katie (07:09):
almost comes down to, let's look at the rubrics we're
using and let's talk about, youknow, what they're telling
students.
I've stopped using a a fourlevel rubric because I would
much rather have successcriteria.
Um, and then give studentsfeedback based on each of those
different success criteria as tohow they're, they're approaching
(07:32):
kind of that, that checklist orgoal in their work.
And, and I think that has becomeway more helpful.
I.
Because I have students where ifI say, oh, you're not yet there,
and then I put a comment, itactually starts a conversation.
Whereas if I have my four levelrubric, they're like, okay,
there's my mark, whatever.
(07:53):
I'm gonna put this in therecycling bin now.
Rachel (07:55):
It's kind of funny that you say that'cause I was very
much a su success criteria kindof person and steering away from
rubrics and I'm, I'm actuallyskewing the other way in terms
of my thinking.
So we talked about this in, in acouple of episodes ago, but
creating these mastery rubricsthat are just based on a three
(08:15):
point scale, but give adescription of what that skill
looks like at each of thoselevels.
So that's sort of where I'vebeen going with my journey.
I don't know how well that'sgoing to work though, but it's
something that, you know, I'mreally, really proud that our
team has come up with agreedwith, you know, it's, it's hard
to sometimes be able to agree onsomething that everybody is okay
(08:41):
with.
Katie (08:41):
No, it is.
And, and we all kind of.
Teach differently and markdifferently and approach things
differently so it, so it is hardto find a single system that
will work for everybody.
But if you can, it's worth it,right?
Like if you can find, you knowthat that core team of teachers
that really jive well and canshare their ideas and create
(09:03):
something together, it reallydoes change
Rachel (09:05):
the dynamic.
Now, I also came across thisresource in a book that I read
recently.
It's called Rethinking LetterGrades.
And you know, it, it was okay.
It was, it's a super, supershort read, so I wouldn't.
I like just get, um, electroniccopy of it if you can.
But, um, at the very back theyhad a set of conversation cards,
(09:27):
which I thought was really neat.
So there are just a bunch ofdifferent prompts to get you
talking and discussing.
Areas of grading and what thatlooks like.
So for example, there's one thatsays, what's an A?
In BC it's 86 to a hundred.
In Ontario it's 80 to a hundred.
In Maine it's 90 to a hundred.
So what is an A?
(09:49):
Is it an 80, an 86, a 90?
Like what is it?
And I, I love these conversationcards and I actually wanna kind
of cut them out, maybe use themin some of our.
Department time next year,because they do kind of get you
really thinking about your, yourapproach and your practices.
Yeah,
Katie (10:09):
I, I really don't like level, like, like those letter
grades rather.
Um, I find them very deceiving,but, um, I think it's, it's
worth, you know, have theconversations with your
colleagues.
You'd be surprised.
Everybody struggles withmarking.
Even marking together, likegoing over an assignment in your
(10:29):
course teams and marking themtogether and, you know, figuring
out, you know, what do you lookfor versus what do I look for,
et cetera.
Um, and how can we make thefeedback meaningful and how can
we make sure that we are in linewith one another?
Rachel (10:45):
One point that I kind of wanna pick up on, That that you
sort of mentioned there is thateverybody does have that
different approach to gradingand that different sort of
thinking around grading.
And that reminds me of part ofthe grading for equity book by
Joe Feldman, where he kind oftalks about.
(11:05):
How grading is so personal toteachers and one of the reasons
why it's so tricky to have thoseconversations around grading and
why it's hard to change mindsetsthere is because grading is one
of those places in teachingwhere we still have a lot of
autonomy.
Yeah, no, it's true.
We don't have an awful lot ofautonomy in, in many other sort
(11:28):
of aspects of teaching, butgrading is something that you
can.
You, you, you have a lot ofautonomy over.
Katie (11:36):
No, and, and it's also, I find that, uh, many of us and
and myself included, becomereally defensive around grading
or how we are markingassignments or giving feedback,
assessing, et cetera.
Um, because it, it does feelmore personal, like, like to me,
I feel like the way I assess islike a personal conversation
(11:57):
between me and students.
And so it, it, even for me, it'shard for me to let somebody in
on that conversation to tell methat I'm not doing it right or
that they don't agree.
It, it is a very deeply personalprocess, right?
Like marking and assessing.
It really is.
And I
Rachel (12:14):
think so then having that understanding of how
personal it is for every singleperson as you're trying to
create, buy-in for somethingthat, you know, many people may
not agree with.
It's, it's just good having thatsort of understanding and
knowing that it is personal andthat it can feel like a personal
(12:34):
attack on your professionaljudgment.
Right, because that's kind ofwhere, where it comes down to
is, is a lot of assessment isprofessional judgment.
And like I said, it's that onearea that you still are allowed
to exercise a lot of yourprofessional judgment.
A lot of other things ineducation are already decided
for us.
(12:55):
So I don't know, just.
Just having that sort of frameof mind and that frame of
reference as you're trying tobuild that buy-in is just so, so
important.
Yeah, and you can share
Katie (13:06):
that vulnerability with your team.
I actually feel like byadmitting how vulnerable that
makes you feel to have otherpeople kind of put you under a
microscope and then look atyour, your assessment practices.
Others are feeling the same way,but nobody wants to admit that.
They don't feel comfortable withit, like who does, right?
So, but admitting it, I think isone of the first steps.
(13:28):
So if you are like a departmenthead or a leader in a course
team, like be very frank, behonest with one another, because
that's how you're gonna buildthose relationships and.
And really make some of themeaningful work happen
Rachel (13:41):
naturally.
I kind of giggle a little bitbecause yeah, I, I'm super,
super vulnerable when I havethose conversations with my
team.
So as we're kind of talkingabout what this might look like
in Great Nine Science for nextyear.
I basically tell them, you know,here's the idea.
I don't know if this is gonnawork great.
(14:01):
Like, let's try it.
Know that as we go through it,there will be growing pains and
that's okay.
We'll improve it as we go andwe'll learn as we go.
And so, sort of likeestablishing that culture of.
It's okay if it's not perfect.
And so
Katie (14:20):
in terms of getting some buy-in, like I know we've, we've
talked about some of theseconversations.
I would say, you know, open yourclassroom space show, show your
colleagues how you mark or ungrade, whatever it is that
however it is that you're movingalong that continuum.
But, but make it something thatthey can see and ask questions
(14:40):
about.
Um, and don't, not everybody hasto do everything all at once.
And I think there is this.
You know, we do have to let goof it and, and remember that
professional judgment isimportant and that we all have
that, right?
So as a teacher, at the end ofthe day, it is up to you, but
it's, it's moving forward as ateam.
And, and respecting where peopleare at and how we can move
(15:04):
everybody forward from thatpoint.
Yeah,
Rachel (15:07):
I love that.
And that's, that's sort of oneof my sort of thinkings for next
year is sharing that process of,as we kind of go and progress
with this grade nine course,sharing it with the rest of the
department so they can kind oflearn along in our journey as
well and see what we're doingand, you know, get a feel for.
(15:28):
What it is without having tofully commit to doing anything
UN grading.
Like I don't, I have noexpectations of everybody else
doing a mastery based approachin their courses.
I just, I kind of wanna exposethem to it and help them learn a
little bit and then see.
You know how it's going tobenefit students and, and so
(15:50):
invite
Katie (15:50):
people into your classroom.
I remember the first time I hadsomebody come to my classroom
and it was, I was so scared it,it honestly made me feel so
vulnerable again.
Like it's, it's hard to putyourself out there and let
people watch you and, and seewhat you do because you're
always afraid of criticism.
But it's a good conversation.
It's a good way to kind of, youknow, get feedback as to what
(16:13):
people see and, and what theythink should change or, or even
how, you know, opening thatconversation up to say how they
can start to change if they wantto take on whatever it is that
you're doing in your classroom,but invite people in.
It does amazing things.
Rachel (16:29):
I think that also then ties in nicely to getting buy-in
from your administrators.
Because you can invite youradministrators in as well.
I think that is one thing.
You know, they are super busyand they might not be able to
come in, but if they can thenbe, for them to be able to see
what you're putting intopractice is gonna really help
(16:52):
them be able to have your back.
If, for example, parents areasking a lot of questions or.
Are concerns about some of thepractices that are going on in
your classroom.
Katie (17:05):
And, and on that note, make sure your admin are aware
if you are moving towards ungrading practices, because this
is not something that you justlet them find out on their own.
Admin can only have your back ifthey know what you're doing and
you have these conversationswith them to justify it to make
sure that you know we're doingit properly.
(17:26):
Because they are experts aswell, and they can give us
advice from the parentperspective, from the actual
grading perspective to make sureit lines up with, uh, what we
need to be doing as teachers.
And so think of them as part ofyour grading team or your course
teams and make sure that theyare in
Rachel (17:42):
the loop as well.
And that's why I brought upadministrators.
So I'm really glad you broughtup that point, Katie, because
yes, having those conversations,start them early, have them
frequently, You know, make surethat they're in the loop.
Yeah.
They need to be.
Yeah.
In, in terms of the planningthat we've done as as a team,
you know, those conversationsstarted with my admin probably
(18:06):
like last January, and I've beenjust kind of like trying to keep
them in the loop of how thingshave been developing and how
they've been going.
Now, I would say when you go andhave those conversations with
your admin, Make sure that yourideas around what you're
planning for un grading arereally crystal clear before you
(18:27):
go have those conversations.
'cause there will be a lot ofquestions.
Katie (18:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like you really need to makesure you have it planned out
well.
Um, and that it's something thatis tangible that they can see
and understand and see how theprogress will be marked and,
and, How students can have thoseopportunities to improve.
And then also, you know, stillcome up with that grade at the
end of a
Rachel (18:49):
course.
And don't be afraid to ask forpermission to do something
that's not typical, like nottraditional.
So, You know, I haven't had thisconversation yet with my admin,
so if they're listening, maybethey're gonna hear it on the
podcast first.
They know it's coming, so it'sokay.
(19:10):
Um, but, you know, I kind ofwanna ask for permission because
we're doing a mastery basedapproach.
Like, I wanna put things ineither differently into our mark
reporting system, or I kind ofdon't wanna use our mark
reporting system at all in I, inan ideal world, now I have
plans.
In my head in terms of what Ican use and how I can set it up
(19:32):
in a variety of different ways,depending on how far I can push
that boundary.
But knowing that and knowingthat I have a few plans in place
can help me sort of figure outwhere.
Where that boundary is for usand for our team, but I've had
to plan that out so much in myhead first before I go and have
(19:54):
those conversations.
So I'm making sure I'm armingmyself with all the information
and all of the documents to say,look like, here's where we're
hitting all the expectations andthe curriculum.
Here's where we're.
Hitting those categories interms of grading that is
traditional for Ontario grades.
(20:14):
So just like being really wellarmed with that information
before you go into thoseconversations is just so, so
crucial.
Yeah.
Katie (20:23):
And it's funny because I have a huge changeover in admin.
Rachel (20:28):
I know, but you are getting amazing admin, so you,
you're, you'll be fine.
Katie (20:32):
We are, but I haven't had the conversation yet.
I haven't been able to actuallyconnect and say, this is what
we're doing and I'm about to goaway, and so I have to figure
out the timing and, and whatnotto make sure I can make, I want
everybody on the same page.
I don't wanna surprise anybody.
I don't want any sort of like,what the heck is happening here,
(20:55):
because mastery-based E s L is,uh, very, very different.
And, and we are changing itdrastically and we've been
working hard on it all year tokind of get to this point.
But yeah, no have theconversations as I tell myself
that.
Rachel (21:13):
And so as you were kind of talking there, I think that's
segues nice into no surprises.
In terms of your parents as
Katie (21:21):
well?
Yes, and I, and I think parentsare, are great allies to have
and we need to see them asallies.
I know in high school we oftenthink, you know, they're
teenagers, whatever, like.
We can make this work.
They should be responsible fortheir, for their understanding
of the course, et cetera.
But parents are great allies andif you can clearly explain and,
(21:42):
and this is what it comes downto, you need it to be very
transparent.
You need to make sure you'reexplaining to parents, this is
how your student is going to geta grade this semester.
We are not going to mark everysingle thing.
We're looking at feedbackcycles, et cetera, actual
qualitative feedback that willallow them to further develop
(22:05):
their skills.
And then from there, this is howI'm going to come up with that
number, or letter grade at theend, or the middle of the
semester, et cetera.
But it really is transparencyand you need to make sure you
lay out, you know, almostjustify it.
It's almost like you're doing apitch.
It's a sales pitch.
Rachel (22:25):
It is a sales pitch, and it's something that I think you
send out in the first week ortwo of school, maybe not the
first week, maybe like thesecond week, just to let the
dust settle as we're kind ofgetting back into things.
But even, you know, secondary,sending out a newsletter to your
parents.
Of your students explaining yourassessment approaches and how
(22:48):
things are going to work forthat semester is gonna go a
long, long way.
And I think once you kind ofexplain it to parents,
especially like both Katie and Iare doing a mastery-based
approach to our UN grading, andI think once that's sort of
explained to parents, like, Hey,you're going to know.
(23:09):
What your student knows andwhere they need to improve, like
exactly what they need toimprove versus, you know, they
got an 86 on a test and so theyknow, you know, they don't know
14% of it, but I couldn't tellyou what that 14% is.
They just need to study harder.
Like parents don't wanna hearthat, right?
No.
So I feel like once they reallyunderstand, oh, like they could
(23:34):
focus on this topic, like thisis where their learning is
lacking.
And where, where they need tostrengthen their skills, that
you will get that buy-in.
And it's also
Katie (23:44):
a good conversation starter with parents because
then you know, as you're givingfeedback, Parents may then have
some questions for you, or like,how can they support their
student at home, um, et cetera.
So it could actually start apretty strong parent-teacher
relationship, which, which to meis actually a great benefit.
Like, it, it's, it's really niceto have parents who are on board
(24:06):
and willing to have thesedifficult conversations about,
you know, how, how they cansupport their kiddo to get, to
get better and to improve and,and to see that progress.
I
Rachel (24:16):
think another strategy as you're kind of thinking about
all of this on grading stuff is.
Every time you get questionsabout what you're doing and
about your approach is create anF a Q document.
So collect those questions andtype out answers.
Like maybe even do it as a teamin a Google Doc that you're
(24:36):
collaborating on and justpopulating it with those
questions in answers as you'rekind of going through, because
then you could use that documentto share with.
Colleagues, you can use it toshare with parents, you can use
it to share with admin.
Like there are so many ways thatthat could be used.
And as I say this, I'm like, Ineed to create an f a Q
(24:57):
document.
I do not have one, but I, I'mthinking like, wow, what a great
resource that would be as westart this journey.
Yeah.
And.
Katie (25:07):
Usually schools have a website.
I'm actually debating putting uplike my newsletter slash my FAQs
right on our department website.
That way, you know, it'ssomething that they can navigate
to and check as I update in realtime.
And then it's kind of like I, Iwant everything to be very
transparent.
Like I don't
Rachel (25:25):
want any surprises.
I agree.
So putting them up on yourwebsite's.
Good.
Also, making sure they're postedin your learning management
system for students to easilyaccess.
'cause a lot of parents do takea look at their students'
learning management system aswell, like as many places.
I feel like that you can betransparent and include any
(25:46):
information that you can.
You know, maybe even creating ascreencast to go along with it,
explaining what you're doing andwhy you're doing it.
Katie (25:55):
And so I think the last kind of group of stakeholders
that's important to consider ourstudents probably the most
important.
How do we get students to buyinto a system?
Of
Rachel (26:08):
UN grading.
That's, that's a probably, Iwould say this is the group that
is like the toughest, becauseyou can explain benefits of un
grading to, to your colleagues,to your admin, to your parents,
and they'll get it.
But students have.
Almost being conditioned intothis mindset of what school is
(26:29):
and what school should be andthat they, you know, they
produce work, they get points.
You know, it's that system ofexchange that happens in a
classroom.
And so when you change that,that's a big mindset shift for
them.
Katie (26:44):
Yes.
And if you're one of the onlyclasses changing that, it also
becomes tough because where'sthe buy-in to do the work?
That's probably one of thethings I've realized the most.
So I've been doing more feedbackcycles before I actually do any
sort of grading, and my studentsare always like, well, are you
gonna mark it?
Is this for Marx?
Is this for Marx?
I was like, no, it's forfeedback so that when I do mark
(27:05):
it, you know you're gonna doreally well on it.
And, and they like that, butthey don't like having to
actually do the work initially.
It's hard for them to get thatbuy-in.
So I
Rachel (27:17):
guess some, some of the things you could do is.
You know, thinking about thelanguage that you use with your
students, instead of saying,submit this assignment, you can
invite them to share it withyou.
Uh, instead of talking aboutgrades, you talk about the
learning, and you always bringit back to the learning.
Well, I.
They might say, well, what gradedid I get on this?
(27:38):
And you're like, no, what didyou learn from this?
And, and try and switch thoseconversations.
You know, the more you focus onthat feedback and that learning
piece, the less the focus willbe on the grades and it will be
a learning curve, and that'sokay.
It will take a bit of time and abit of getting used to.
(27:58):
You will get pushback at thebeginning.
I am certain of that.
Expect it, you know, for atleast the first month and then
things will, should calm downafter that point.
Katie (28:11):
And it's almost worth having them when they ask, you
know, what would I get on this?
Say, what do you think you wouldget on this?
Let's look at the successcriteria.
Let's look at what you did anddid not do.
And why don't you try to put anumber grade, like if you were
the teacher, what would you giveyourself?
That usually scares them, but,but, but they do actually think
(28:35):
about it.
And I think that that's part ofthe process, right?
Like, I think an important.
Part of grading is that studentsunderstand where that grade
comes from.
And so that could actually be avery powerful practice where
you're having them, you know, ifthey really wanna know a number
grade.
If I were to mark then and therelike, let, let's do this
together.
Like I want you to look at allof the CRI criteria.
(28:57):
What did you do?
What didn't you do?
What are you on your way tobeing able to accomplish, but
you're just not there yet?
And, and how would you put anumber to that?
How would you mark it?
Because it's a really goodconversation.
It really
Rachel (29:08):
is.
And I think opening up theconversation around grading in
general is also a great place toget buy-in from your students.
So, you know, don't be afraid toask them.
Can you think of a time whereyou got a grade that you thought
was unfair or that, you know, ifyou got a bad grade, how did it
make you feel?
And, you know, kind of dive intosome of those.
(29:31):
I guess like the mindset piecesaround grading and around how it
impacts how we learn.
It's gonna go a long way interms of getting buy-in for your
students'cause it's gonna buildthat understanding and the why
of why we shouldn't focus on thegrade and why we should focus on
the learning and the feedback.
And
Katie (29:49):
it's, and it's almost worth, like, what I've been
having my students do this yearis to keep all of their
attempts.
And all of kind of these, thesedifferent, um, tasks that we're
doing before I ever markanything.
And then I have them look attheir first attempt versus the
one that they end up submittingfor Marks.
And then it's actually kind of aneat way to get them to, to see
(30:13):
where they started from andwhere they are now.
Because often that can be kindof eye-opening for them to say,
oh yeah, you're right.
Like, look, I started off and itwas really not that great.
Like, look how weak my writingis.
And then look what I did here.
Like I can actually see thedifferent parts of my writing.
And having those examples andlike the actual things that
they've done is awesome.
(30:35):
So portfolios are great.
Like have them do that.
Why not?
Rachel (30:39):
I guess the one sort of last place that you could start
building some buy-in fromstudents is focusing on building
in a lot of reflection into.
Your day-to-day and yourcourses.
So reflecting on the learningprocess and uh, you know, how
you're doing and how you'replanning for things, like just
(31:01):
really that sort of piece is, isalso gonna build awareness
around.
How, you know, how you end updoing things relates to grades
and, and so yeah, building inthose reflection opportunities
for students is gonna go a longway as well.
Katie (31:19):
Yeah, and, and I think that's where some of the buy-in
from students comes too, right?
So if they can actually thinkabout their learning and how
they're developing, I think ithelps them understand and know
kind of how.
UN grading is going and, and howtheir skills
Rachel (31:35):
are developing.
And then I guess just kind of bemindful.
Like you, you might havestudents who not getting grades
is gonna feel very anxious forthem and stress them out quite a
bit.
I, we've talked about this alittle bit before, right?
We've experienced courses wherewe haven't gotten grades and it
can be in anxiety inducing interms of not knowing where you
(31:58):
stand.
So, Just making sure that yourdoor is open, that you're having
those conversations consistentlywith students, especially when
they are anxious around grades,is gonna really like it.
It's gonna help support them asthey start to try and shift
their mindsets as well.
(32:18):
So, yes.
So
Katie (32:19):
the biggest kind of takeaway here is.
Get everybody on board, be onthe same page.
Communication is key.
Um, and just make sure thateverybody knows where they're
moving towards and, and whatyour goals are, because I think
that's the only way to kind ofmove with un grading and, and to
try new things.
But give yourself a break.
(32:40):
It doesn't have to be all ornothing.
Just do small little steps.
Rachel (32:44):
Yeah, small changes will eventually lead to big impacts.
So on that note, uh, we aregoing to wrap up our
conversation here for today.
Uh, you can access our shownotes@als.com slash nine seven
for this episode.
That's edu g a lss.com/nine
Katie (33:04):
seven.
And if you like what you heardtoday, then please feel free to
share it with a friend or acolleague.
And don't forget to subscribe onyour favorite podcast app so
that you don't miss out on anyfuture content.
And
Rachel (33:15):
as always, we invite you to leave us.
Feedback.
So if you'd like to go onto ourFlipgrid, I still wanna call it
Flipgrid, uh, at edugals.com/flipgrid, you can leave
us a video message there, or youcan go on our
website@edugals.com and leave usa written reply.
Katie (33:33):
Thanks for listening.
See you next week.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of our edu Gals podcast.
Show notes for this episode areavailable@edugals.com.
That's e d.
G A l s.com.
(33:55):
We'd also love to hear yourfeedback, so leave us a message
on our website,
Rachel (34:00):
and if you enjoyed what you heard, please subscribe and
consider leaving a rating orreview on your favorite podcast
app.
Until next time, keep beingawesome and try something new.
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