September 12, 2023 • 26 mins
This week, we are starting our book study with chapter 1 of Grading for Equity: What It Is, Why It Matters, and How It Can Transform Schools and Classrooms by Joe Feldman. Specifically, we will dive into what makes grading so difficult to talk about and even harder to change.
If you like what you hear, we would love it if you could share this episode with a colleague or friend. And make sure you subscribe so that you don’t miss out on any new content! And consider supporting the show by buying us a coffee or two!
We would love to hear from you – leave a comment on our website OR check out our FLIPGRID!
Featured Content
**For detailed show notes, please visit our website at https://edugals.com/130**
- Grading for Equity by Joe Feldman
- Find a buddy to talk about the ideas in this book!
- Structure of the book:
- 14 chapters
- 3 parts - foundations, a case for change, equitable grading practices
- Get comfortable with being uncomfortable - try to stay open-minded
- Teaching is challenging - grades are one of the only places where we still have autonomy
- Grades and grading practices are highly personal
- Changing grades by admin
- Grading is not really something that is taught in teacher education programs
- Most grading practices are based on prior experience
- We hate grading! and grade grubbing!
- Stress around grading
- Mastery grading and specs grading and other equitable grading practices reduces stress around grades and grading
- Web of belief:
- Shapes our teaching and grading practices
- What is your starting position?
- When we learn new info - we either dismiss or accept it (depends on how it fits)
- Question your reactions
- What barriers are we creating with our grading practices?
- Acknowledge guilt around past grading practices and then let it go
- Discussion question: What is your why?
- Part of our UnGrading journey - Jesse Stommel
- Building equity lens
- Build on learning and justify changes to grading practices (where is the evidence?)
- Entry points for grading conversations with colleagues
Connect with EduGals:
- Twitter @EduGals
- Rachel @dr_r_johnson
- Katie @KatieAttwell
- EduGals Website
- Support the show
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rachel (00:41):
In this episode, we are diving into chapter one of
Grading for Equity by JoeFeldman.
Katie (00:48):
We will dive into what makes grading so difficult to
talk about and even harder tochange.
Rachel (00:54):
Let's get started.
This week marks the firstepisode that Katie and I are
diving into the book Grading forEquity.
The subtitle is what it Is, whyIt Matters, and How It Can
Transform Schools and Classroomsby Joe Feldman.
(01:15):
And I have to say, I am soexcited for this series.
Katie (01:19):
I agree.
So I've read bits and pieces ofit based on kind of what I've
needed at the time, but I'venever actually done a deep dive
and I've been meaning to, and soRachel and I were talking, we're
like, why not?
Why not do a book study?
I.
Do the whole thing.
dive deep into the actualcontent and talk about it.
Rachel (01:37):
and this is the kind of content, and I think, we'll,
we'll get into this a little bitlater in the episode, but like
you have to talk to somebodyabout the ideas in this book
because if you just kind of doit yourself, like you can get so
far with your own thinking, but.
Talking it over, especiallybecause we don't really talk
about grades is so important.
Katie (01:59):
No, and so it's a little bit of a uhoh.
Here we go.
I'm going to give you the innerworkings of my teacher brain and
why I do things the way I do,but, and it's scary, but we're
doing it because I think it'simportant.
Rachel (02:12):
Yeah, So this series, it's gonna go on for the rest of
kind of our school year as wework our way through this book,
and so we're kind of gonna workthrough it chapter by chapter
because there's so much goodinformation in here that we just
really wanna do it justice.
Katie (02:30):
Yeah, I don't want to kind of gloss over anything
because there's so much greatlearning.
and it's kind of worth maybementioning the structure of the
book a little bit to kind ofgive you a bit of a heads up as
to what's coming, what you canexpect, et cetera.
so there are 14 chapters in thebook.
Which isn't too bad.
You figure one, one chapter aweek, we're good.
(02:51):
and then there's three differentparts and I think it's how he's
divided the parts that is reallykind of the meat and potatoes
here.
So part one is the foundations,which is the first two chapters.
Um, and that's where he kind ofgoes into the basics of mark of
grading, why we do things theway we do, et cetera.
part two is a case for change.
(03:11):
And this, I think, is going tobe a very powerful book.
Maybe some good reminders, somethings to think about in terms
of what we do, but it's to getus thinking about why we should
consider changing our gradingpractices.
and then last part, part threeis half the book, seven to 14,
and this is equitable gradingpractices.
And so this is where he actuallygoes into how we can change our
(03:35):
practices.
Rachel (03:36):
So much great stuff.
And so let's just dive rightinto chapter one then.
And so this is kind of layingthe foundations and looking at
our mindsets as we're, we'restarting to talk about grading.
So, uh, the chapter itself iscalled What Makes Grading so
difficult to talk about and EvenHarder to change.
(03:59):
So I think before we kind of getinto this chapter, I think it's
worth us kind of mentioninglike, What we talk about today
might make you feel a bituncomfortable as we talk about
it, and that's okay.
Like just kind of be aware ofwhere your comfort level is,
where your thinking level is,but try and stay open as well.
'cause those gradingconversations are so challenging
(04:21):
to have.
Katie (04:22):
Yes.
and it's, and it's one thing tohave these conversations when.
You are controlling thatconversation and you're starting
that conversation.
It's another thing entirely whencolleagues or administration or
students or teachers are askingyou.
So by having these conversationsahead of time is starting to
think about it, I think it helpsyou feel more comfortable in
(04:45):
terms of what you do and how youdo it and, and how you can share
that with others.
Rachel (04:51):
So one of the, uh, the interesting points that really
kind of struck me when I readthis book and, and I hadn't, I
don't know why I hadn't.
Like, it's so, I don't know.
It's so common sense in terms ofthe point he makes, but he does
talk about, How teaching is issuch a challenging career.
Like we all know this, right?
There's so many differentaspects of it and we are told
(05:14):
what to do in, you know,regulations and you know, what
topics we teach.
Like so much of our autonomy isreally kind of taken away from
us in teaching, but the one sortof island of autonomy we do have
is grades and how we grade.
And so that's why it's kind ofthat tricky.
(05:34):
Subject because it's the onewhere we have a bit more power
than we do in any other area ofteaching.
Katie (05:41):
yeah, it's the only, otherwise like, let's be honest,
everything else is so controlledand so you're right.
And I think that's why it is sodeeply personal or it feels
personal when people wanna talkabout our grading practices be
because it is that one areawhere, It's who we are.
It's, it's, it's our thinking,it's our beliefs, it's our
(06:03):
everything and how we, we showthat learning in our classroom
and our expectations forlearning in our classroom.
Rachel (06:09):
so there, there's some interesting sections here.
He, he does talk about somedifferent states and how it's
actually written into some ofthe education acts and some of
the regulations and languageswhere, Grades don't get changed.
Like it's really kind of laidout in terms of where that
autonomy is for the teacher.
(06:30):
Now, I have to say here inOntario, that's not the case.
Grades do get changed, and thatis so contentious when that
happens.
So at the end of a semester,They do, um, all of these, uh,
they call'em promotion meetings,and so they'll call the teachers
and usually bring them in interms of the conversation,
right?
If, if they do wanna change agrade for a student, but
(06:53):
sometimes you have no say in it.
Katie (06:55):
And that could be hard.
And it really does create thatdivision between, in that power
structure, you know what I mean?
Like it's the one thing we wantthe control over because we have
the control over.
Because nobody can tell me howto mark something, but then at
the end of the day, they can.
So it's, it can be verydemoralizing to have that
happen.
Rachel (07:12):
yeah, It's tough.
Katie (07:13):
Yep.
I mean, at the same time, is 1%going to make a difference?
Is 2%, like is that really goingto change?
Rachel (07:22):
Yeah, and, and we'll definitely get into that when we
start talking about gradingscales.
And we, we have a previousepisode all about grading scales
and rethinking your gradingscales.
And that one, 2%, like it reallydoesn't make a difference if
you're on the a hundred pointscale, but you know, because
grading is so personal and it isyour only sort of island of
(07:42):
autonomy as a teacher that can,that can really, I don't know.
Take a blow to your ego, right?
Katie (07:49):
Yep, totally.
He also talks about how, and,and this is so true, and it made
me think about a beginningteacher and what it was like
when I first started, but.
grading is never really taughtto you in any of the Bachelor of
Education programs or teacherprograms.
It's not something that isnormally demonstrated or shown
or explained.
(08:10):
and so when you're firststarting out as a teacher,
you're going based on what youthink the expectations should
be, et cetera, the rubric youcreated, if you have one, et
cetera.
but it's not necessarily basedon.
Current grading and assessmentand evaluation research that's
out there.
Uh, you're not necessarily, youcould be, but most people aren't
working with experiencedteachers to, to get a better
(08:32):
idea as to what grading shouldlook like or sound like, or, or
feel like, et cetera.
Like based on what students arecreating, you're very much just
Rachel (08:40):
just doing it on your own.
and it's very much based on howyou were graded as a student.
Like that prior experience andthat prior knowledge of how you
were graded comes into playinto, into how you end up
grading your students.
Katie (08:54):
Agreed.
And so if there are things thathave been done to you, for
example, marking participation,marking attendance, marking.
Organizational skills, etcetera, then you may think that
that's a justified way ofgrading students.
And so we bring all of theseprior experiences and perhaps
inequities into our own teachingpractices.
Rachel (09:15):
Now, how much do you like going back to teachers
college?
This, this is a while, but howmuch do you remember being
taught about grading?
Katie (09:22):
I, I don't,
Rachel (09:24):
no, I don't either, which is why I am asking.
Katie (09:26):
We did some like lesson planning and unit planning and,
but we never monitor moderatedmarking.
We never did anything like that.
There was no marking other thanmy practicum placements, but if
I marked something, they justsaid, okay, go ahead and mark
it.
You do it.
They weren't telling me how toor what I should look for or
anything.
It was just go ahead.
Rachel (09:46):
I think the first time I came across moderated marking is
when I did my IB training,
Katie (09:51):
Yeah, agreed.
Rachel (09:51):
and that was like well into, actually teaching.
Katie (09:55):
Same here.
And I think that was the firsttime that that even became a
thing.
and maybe like a year or twobefore where I was working with
another Spanish teacher in theschool and she was like, oh, I'd
love to sit down with you andhave you read something because
I wanna know what you wouldmarket.
And we actually started aconversation about grading and
what I look for and what whatshe looks for.
And it was actually like a.
(10:16):
A powerful conversation becausenobody had ever done that with
me, and it was kind of neat tosee how our brains work and how
we interpret what's being givento us by our students.
Rachel (10:26):
Now, another interesting point he brings up here, and I I
do wanna talk about this for alittle bit, is that even though
our autonomy, you know, withgrading is, is kind of like the
only piece we have to hold onto,we hate it.
Katie (10:39):
We do the amount of time that goes into grading and
reporting and comments and allthe rest, like it is
frustrating.
Rachel (10:50):
It's not only that, it's like you are agonizing over.
Okay.
Is this four points?
Is this three and a half points?
Is this three points?
You know, you're agonizing overwhat grade to assign.
And you're also then agonizingabout giving those things back,
or at least I, I did.
Right.
Because when you give them back,then the students start, for
(11:11):
lack of a better term, gradegrubbing.
Especially if you have some ofthose higher academic kind of
classes where they're trying toas well, play the system and
just get that extra half a markout of you so that they could
bump their percentage up.
Right.
Katie (11:26):
Also, let's talk about IB grading and giving those
assignments back, because thatwas like the most stressful days
of my career teaching ib.
Anytime I had to hand somethingback, I was like, oh, I'm
waiting for it.
I'm waiting for it.
They're all gonna come back.
Rachel (11:39):
And yet last year when I did specs grading and I did
mastery based learning, I gotzero grade grubbing.
Katie (11:48):
Oh.
Rachel (11:49):
beautiful.
So I, you know, obviously I amplanning to continue forward
that way.
I've actually kind of laid itout a little bit differently
this year.
That's for another episodethough.
so I find like bringing in someof these equitable grading
practices that we will betalking about throughout this
series is going to really helpwith some of that grade gring
(12:11):
and some of that hate forgrading.
Katie (12:13):
and it, it does make me think like if, if I'm this
stressed about it and mystudents are complaining so
much, like obviously I haven'tmade the expectations very clear
and I haven't made the processtransparent enough because if
there was that opencommunication, there would be
less conflict or stress.
I don't know.
I don't teach IV anymore, so.
(12:37):
I also love this concept, of theweb of belief and how that plays
into it.
So this web of of belief isessentially all of our lived
experiences, truths based onthese experiences that we have
as individuals, our priorunderstanding and learning.
And, and how this shapes who weare as educators and our
(12:59):
teaching practices and gradingpractices and, and even how we
approach grading.
Rachel (13:05):
I love the web of belief too.
I think this is actually areally great sort of exercise
for you to do with your courseteam or with your department or
your leadership team even, whereyou just get out what your web
of belief is.
Some sort of brainstorming kindof activity, right?
Like what are all those beliefsthat you have about grading?
(13:28):
You know, do things like latemarks, like do they matter to
you?
What?
What about homework?
What about participation?
What about all the learningskills versus the academic
content?
Like where are your beliefssituated?
Because I don't think you canreally make really great change
to your grading practices untilyou understand where you're
(13:49):
starting from.
I.
Katie (13:50):
and your web of belief and the, and kind of that set of
beliefs you have, it really isgoing to influence even new
learning and, and how youapproach new learning and how
you react.
Because often it can bedefensive to new learning.
and, and it's important that wedon't just dismiss new ideas.
(14:11):
I think we need to think backand say, okay, what in my web of
belief, what in the beliefs thatI have about grading is making
me feel so strongly about thisand why?
Rachel (14:21):
Yeah.
And so he, he does talk quite abit about when we learn new
information, like what it, whatit does with our belief system.
So if we, um, we learn a newpiece of information, we might
immediately dismiss it.
Or we might accept it, and itdepends on how well it fits
within your web of belief
Katie (14:40):
Yes.
And then he provides some greatadvice with respect to our web,
web of belief and new learning.
And it's, and, and the thingthat stuck out to me, probably
Just based on how I react tothings and whatnot, is to be
aware of your reactions to newinformation.
Don't just react and not everthink about why you've reacted
(15:02):
that way.
If you're defensive it, it'simportant that you think about
why, like why is that making mefeel this way?
Because there's a reason for it.
And in order to be open to newlearning and new ideas and.
To be critical of our ownteaching practices.
I think these reactions areimportant to actually analyze a
little more.
Rachel (15:19):
And I think that like it, it's not just grading,
right?
Like that's being a moreequitable teacher and educator
is being aware of when you havethose reactions, because those
reactions are coming from like aplace deep down inside of some
sort of belief you have and.
(15:40):
Just by automatically dismissingit, you're not, you're not
necessarily looking at allsides, which if, if you're
trying to improve your equitylens, like that's not what you
wanna do.
Right?
Katie (15:53):
No, and it's, it's, it's even beyond equity.
Even if it's like, maybe youwanna try a new teaching
practice and then you hear aboutit and you're like, oh, I don't
like this.
I don't like this at all.
Or anytime there's PD presented,whether you like it or not, or
whether it's forced or not, youknow, sometimes.
it is being presented for areason, some better than others,
but it's worth kind of taking alisten and seeing what you can
(16:16):
learn from it.
Because let's be honest, yes,we're teachers and educators,
but we're still learning as wego through our careers.
Like learning doesn't stop assoon as you get that teaching
degree and get into a classroom.
Rachel (16:28):
I think it's also worth kind of saying like it's still
okay to have those reactions.
Just recognize when you havethem and know that, okay, if, if
something's making meuncomfortable, then I have to
dig a little bit deeper andunderstand why that's making me
uncomfortable.
Katie (16:44):
And I sometimes think about, Hey, I feel really
excited about this.
Why, what am I doing right nowthat is making me see this?
And like, get really excitedbecause obviously I'm, I'm
recognizing a need to change.
Rachel (16:56):
So I love the saying, get comfortable with being
uncomfortable.
Katie (17:00):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
It can be hard, but
Rachel (17:03):
It is very hard.
I try and live by it, butsometimes man, even I get like
really uncomfortable and I amnot comfortable with that.
Katie (17:10):
No, no, it can.
Yes.
It's hard, but it's good.
Rachel (17:14):
So, you know, as we, as we kind of go through this book
and this book study, we aregonna see like that there are a
lot of practices that maybewe've been doing in the past
that are not necessarilyequitable for students and that
are actually creating barriersfor our students and preventing
them from achieving the pathwaysthat they want to.
Katie (17:37):
I have nothing to add to that comment because that is a
perfect summary as to why weeven are diving into this book.
Rachel (17:43):
Yeah, it's, but um, just, again, like some of those
things you're gonna go, but wehave to, or if we don't, you
know, grade every singleassignment, then the students
won't do the work or you know,like there's so many beliefs
that we have about.
Students and about learning andabout grading that I think are
(18:07):
just gonna, really get put intoquestion here.
Katie (18:10):
Yeah.
And, and part of me then goesback to this whole idea of the
web of beliefs.
Like, I feel like, um, if you'rekind of on the fence, so you're
not really sure as as, as youdive into a book like this, it's
worth taking the time to sitdown and.
Brainstorm, what are yourfeelings about grading?
What are things that shouldcount?
What are things that should not,what are the things you like?
(18:32):
What are the fears you haveabout change?
because then I think you're in abetter place to approach a book
such as this, uh, which mightmake you question and, and
become defensive or unsure orangry at times because it
happens.
but I think it's important to gointo it knowing.
What your beliefs are?
Rachel (18:51):
I think one other emotion we do need to talk about
is guilt.
Katie (18:55):
Oh, yeah.
Rachel (18:56):
And so, I've been on this journey of changing my
grading practices for a fewyears now and learning all I can
about grading, and when I kindof look back on what I used to
do in my classroom versus what Ido now, I do feel a lot of
guilt.
And I, I kind of look back andquestion some of the grades that
(19:19):
my students ended up with incourses.
And I'm like, does that reallyrepresent their achievement?
And, and or have I put up thisbarrier now for them not being
able to do what they wanted todo?
Or I, like, you can startfeeling a lot of guilt.
About past practices, and Ithink what I'm trying to get to,
(19:43):
to saying here is, yeah, it'sthere, but you kind of just move
forward, like you have to moveforward.
It reminds me of this quote byMaya Angelou, where she, she
talks about, do your best untilyou know better, and then when
you know better, do better.
Katie (19:56):
I think that's perfect.
And it's true.
We do learn and so let the guiltgo because it's done.
It's over.
You've moved on.
you have a new set of studentsevery year or every semester,
whatever your system is.
have a new fresh start, and Ithink it's important to let the
past go and focus on doingbetter.
so one thing I like about thestructure of this book is at the
(20:20):
end of each chapter, you'regoing to notice that they have a
summary of the differentconcepts that have been
discussed.
and then there's also questionsfor you to consider.
And with that in mind, there'sactually a question that I
thought was worth having usshare with you, as we go through
our learning.
And that's question numberthree.
If you have the book, whatbrings you to this book?
(20:40):
What are your goals for readingit?
How will the way you read ithelp or hinder you from
realizing these goals?
So I thought Rachel and I wouldshare a little bit about, about
that with you so that you.
Also can kind of think aboutperhaps why you might want to
consider purchasing the book orfollowing along with our book
study.
Rachel (20:58):
You know this, I'm trying to remember back because
I have read this book a verylong time ago, and I think what
brought me to the book at thebeginning was that I had heard,
um, Jesse Stommel speak a fewtimes about un grading.
If you haven't heard him speak,I'll, I'll see if I can find
some links to some stuff onYouTube by him, but, he talks a
(21:20):
lot about UN grading and whygrades can cause so much harm to
students.
And you know, it kind of ledwith that sort of learning along
with, um, a lot of the equitykind of work that we were doing
as a board that brought me tothis book.
And that was sort of my goal forreading it is I'm like, okay,
(21:41):
how can.
I take my past grading practicesand bring that equity lens in
and, and learn more because, youknow, it's an area of my
practice that I still need tolearn.
Katie (21:53):
Yeah.
And for me, um, I, I always goback to e s l, but, but I'm
gonna go there again.
I think teaching e s l hasreally changed me as an educator
and, and how I approach thingsand, my belief system in terms
of grading and teaching.
and, and I think they have mademe better as an educator and
(22:14):
more open to the fact thatlearners in our classrooms are
all very different.
They are living different lives.
They walk in with a whole lotthat we don't get to know or see
half the time and, and they'vekind of opened my mind to
recognizing that I need tochange and, and I want to make
(22:35):
my practices more equitable forany student walking through my
classroom door, regardless ofwhat.
Their lives are like, or whatthey have been like, or what
they will be like.
So, I think my students havetaught me a lot and softened me
quite a bit in terms of mystance on grading.
and that's what brings me to thebook because I've been on and on
(22:57):
grading journey and, andmastery-based learning and, and
changing things up.
But I, I don't feel like mylearning is done and I think
that I still have more.
That I would like to change.
yes, so my goal is to continuemy learning, find some new
strategies, also.
Some of the research that hasgone into this book, I think
(23:17):
will be good in helping me tojustify some of these changes
and for those that need thatjustification, because let's be
honest, sometimes you do.
Um, and to also allow me to bemore transparent and explain
things to, to students, tofamilies, to administrators,
course teams, et cetera.
and I'm hoping that myopen-mindedness is going to help
(23:40):
me.
Approach this in an open way sothat I'm taking the ideas and
finding ways to apply them myclassroom.
Rachel (23:47):
Yeah, I think my goals are very, very similar.
And like I said, I have readthis book before, but rereading
it again and going through thisbook study.
I think I'm kind of goingthrough it now with a lens of
where is that evidence that Ican collect that.
Yes, I can answer some of thosequestions that folks have for me
(24:08):
whenever we're talking aboutgrading or opening those
conversations for grading andmore.
So where are the entry pointsthat I can.
Bring back to my department andmy course teams to get them kind
of thinking about gradingpractices and slowly shifting to
(24:28):
more equitable ones.
Katie (24:30):
Yeah, so that's a little bit as to where we're at and an
intro to this new book studythat we're just embarking on,
grading for equity.
Rachel (24:39):
So on that note, we will wrap up our conversation here
today, and so you can access anyof the links or resources we
talked about here today in ourshow notes.
You can access our shownotes@edugal.com slash one 30.
That's edu G a l s.com/onethree.
Katie (24:58):
And if you like what you heard today, then feel free to
share it with a colleague or afriend.
And don't forget to subscribe onyour favorite podcast app so
that you don't miss out on anyfuture content.
Rachel (25:08):
And as always, we'd love to hear from you, so especially
like what are your beliefsaround grading?
What is.
Your web of belief and you canfeel free to share anything you
want with us.
You can do that on our flip atedu.com/flipgrid, or you can go
onto our website@edu.com andleave us a written response.
Katie (25:29):
Thanks for listening and see you next week.
In this episode, we are diving into chapter one of
Grading for Equity by JoeFeldman.
Katie (00:48):
We will dive into what makes grading so difficult to
talk about and even harder tochange.
Rachel (00:54):
Let's get started.
This week marks the firstepisode that Katie and I are
diving into the book Grading forEquity.
The subtitle is what it Is, whyIt Matters, and How It Can
Transform Schools and Classroomsby Joe Feldman.
(01:15):
And I have to say, I am soexcited for this series.
Katie (01:19):
I agree.
So I've read bits and pieces ofit based on kind of what I've
needed at the time, but I'venever actually done a deep dive
and I've been meaning to, and soRachel and I were talking, we're
like, why not?
Why not do a book study?
I.
Do the whole thing.
dive deep into the actualcontent and talk about it.
Rachel (01:37):
and this is the kind of content, and I think, we'll,
we'll get into this a little bitlater in the episode, but like
you have to talk to somebodyabout the ideas in this book
because if you just kind of doit yourself, like you can get so
far with your own thinking, but.
Talking it over, especiallybecause we don't really talk
about grades is so important.
Katie (01:59):
No, and so it's a little bit of a uhoh.
Here we go.
I'm going to give you the innerworkings of my teacher brain and
why I do things the way I do,but, and it's scary, but we're
doing it because I think it'simportant.
Rachel (02:12):
Yeah, So this series, it's gonna go on for the rest of
kind of our school year as wework our way through this book,
and so we're kind of gonna workthrough it chapter by chapter
because there's so much goodinformation in here that we just
really wanna do it justice.
Katie (02:30):
Yeah, I don't want to kind of gloss over anything
because there's so much greatlearning.
and it's kind of worth maybementioning the structure of the
book a little bit to kind ofgive you a bit of a heads up as
to what's coming, what you canexpect, et cetera.
so there are 14 chapters in thebook.
Which isn't too bad.
You figure one, one chapter aweek, we're good.
(02:51):
and then there's three differentparts and I think it's how he's
divided the parts that is reallykind of the meat and potatoes
here.
So part one is the foundations,which is the first two chapters.
Um, and that's where he kind ofgoes into the basics of mark of
grading, why we do things theway we do, et cetera.
part two is a case for change.
(03:11):
And this, I think, is going tobe a very powerful book.
Maybe some good reminders, somethings to think about in terms
of what we do, but it's to getus thinking about why we should
consider changing our gradingpractices.
and then last part, part threeis half the book, seven to 14,
and this is equitable gradingpractices.
And so this is where he actuallygoes into how we can change our
(03:35):
practices.
Rachel (03:36):
So much great stuff.
And so let's just dive rightinto chapter one then.
And so this is kind of layingthe foundations and looking at
our mindsets as we're, we'restarting to talk about grading.
So, uh, the chapter itself iscalled What Makes Grading so
difficult to talk about and EvenHarder to change.
(03:59):
So I think before we kind of getinto this chapter, I think it's
worth us kind of mentioninglike, What we talk about today
might make you feel a bituncomfortable as we talk about
it, and that's okay.
Like just kind of be aware ofwhere your comfort level is,
where your thinking level is,but try and stay open as well.
'cause those gradingconversations are so challenging
(04:21):
to have.
Katie (04:22):
Yes.
and it's, and it's one thing tohave these conversations when.
You are controlling thatconversation and you're starting
that conversation.
It's another thing entirely whencolleagues or administration or
students or teachers are askingyou.
So by having these conversationsahead of time is starting to
think about it, I think it helpsyou feel more comfortable in
(04:45):
terms of what you do and how youdo it and, and how you can share
that with others.
Rachel (04:51):
So one of the, uh, the interesting points that really
kind of struck me when I readthis book and, and I hadn't, I
don't know why I hadn't.
Like, it's so, I don't know.
It's so common sense in terms ofthe point he makes, but he does
talk about, How teaching is issuch a challenging career.
Like we all know this, right?
There's so many differentaspects of it and we are told
(05:14):
what to do in, you know,regulations and you know, what
topics we teach.
Like so much of our autonomy isreally kind of taken away from
us in teaching, but the one sortof island of autonomy we do have
is grades and how we grade.
And so that's why it's kind ofthat tricky.
(05:34):
Subject because it's the onewhere we have a bit more power
than we do in any other area ofteaching.
Katie (05:41):
yeah, it's the only, otherwise like, let's be honest,
everything else is so controlledand so you're right.
And I think that's why it is sodeeply personal or it feels
personal when people wanna talkabout our grading practices be
because it is that one areawhere, It's who we are.
It's, it's, it's our thinking,it's our beliefs, it's our
(06:03):
everything and how we, we showthat learning in our classroom
and our expectations forlearning in our classroom.
Rachel (06:09):
so there, there's some interesting sections here.
He, he does talk about somedifferent states and how it's
actually written into some ofthe education acts and some of
the regulations and languageswhere, Grades don't get changed.
Like it's really kind of laidout in terms of where that
autonomy is for the teacher.
(06:30):
Now, I have to say here inOntario, that's not the case.
Grades do get changed, and thatis so contentious when that
happens.
So at the end of a semester,They do, um, all of these, uh,
they call'em promotion meetings,and so they'll call the teachers
and usually bring them in interms of the conversation,
right?
If, if they do wanna change agrade for a student, but
(06:53):
sometimes you have no say in it.
Katie (06:55):
And that could be hard.
And it really does create thatdivision between, in that power
structure, you know what I mean?
Like it's the one thing we wantthe control over because we have
the control over.
Because nobody can tell me howto mark something, but then at
the end of the day, they can.
So it's, it can be verydemoralizing to have that
happen.
Rachel (07:12):
yeah, It's tough.
Katie (07:13):
Yep.
I mean, at the same time, is 1%going to make a difference?
Is 2%, like is that really goingto change?
Rachel (07:22):
Yeah, and, and we'll definitely get into that when we
start talking about gradingscales.
And we, we have a previousepisode all about grading scales
and rethinking your gradingscales.
And that one, 2%, like it reallydoesn't make a difference if
you're on the a hundred pointscale, but you know, because
grading is so personal and it isyour only sort of island of
(07:42):
autonomy as a teacher that can,that can really, I don't know.
Take a blow to your ego, right?
Katie (07:49):
Yep, totally.
He also talks about how, and,and this is so true, and it made
me think about a beginningteacher and what it was like
when I first started, but.
grading is never really taughtto you in any of the Bachelor of
Education programs or teacherprograms.
It's not something that isnormally demonstrated or shown
or explained.
(08:10):
and so when you're firststarting out as a teacher,
you're going based on what youthink the expectations should
be, et cetera, the rubric youcreated, if you have one, et
cetera.
but it's not necessarily basedon.
Current grading and assessmentand evaluation research that's
out there.
Uh, you're not necessarily, youcould be, but most people aren't
working with experiencedteachers to, to get a better
(08:32):
idea as to what grading shouldlook like or sound like, or, or
feel like, et cetera.
Like based on what students arecreating, you're very much just
Rachel (08:40):
just doing it on your own.
and it's very much based on howyou were graded as a student.
Like that prior experience andthat prior knowledge of how you
were graded comes into playinto, into how you end up
grading your students.
Katie (08:54):
Agreed.
And so if there are things thathave been done to you, for
example, marking participation,marking attendance, marking.
Organizational skills, etcetera, then you may think that
that's a justified way ofgrading students.
And so we bring all of theseprior experiences and perhaps
inequities into our own teachingpractices.
Rachel (09:15):
Now, how much do you like going back to teachers
college?
This, this is a while, but howmuch do you remember being
taught about grading?
Katie (09:22):
I, I don't,
Rachel (09:24):
no, I don't either, which is why I am asking.
Katie (09:26):
We did some like lesson planning and unit planning and,
but we never monitor moderatedmarking.
We never did anything like that.
There was no marking other thanmy practicum placements, but if
I marked something, they justsaid, okay, go ahead and mark
it.
You do it.
They weren't telling me how toor what I should look for or
anything.
It was just go ahead.
Rachel (09:46):
I think the first time I came across moderated marking is
when I did my IB training,
Katie (09:51):
Yeah, agreed.
Rachel (09:51):
and that was like well into, actually teaching.
Katie (09:55):
Same here.
And I think that was the firsttime that that even became a
thing.
and maybe like a year or twobefore where I was working with
another Spanish teacher in theschool and she was like, oh, I'd
love to sit down with you andhave you read something because
I wanna know what you wouldmarket.
And we actually started aconversation about grading and
what I look for and what whatshe looks for.
And it was actually like a.
(10:16):
A powerful conversation becausenobody had ever done that with
me, and it was kind of neat tosee how our brains work and how
we interpret what's being givento us by our students.
Rachel (10:26):
Now, another interesting point he brings up here, and I I
do wanna talk about this for alittle bit, is that even though
our autonomy, you know, withgrading is, is kind of like the
only piece we have to hold onto,we hate it.
Katie (10:39):
We do the amount of time that goes into grading and
reporting and comments and allthe rest, like it is
frustrating.
Rachel (10:50):
It's not only that, it's like you are agonizing over.
Okay.
Is this four points?
Is this three and a half points?
Is this three points?
You know, you're agonizing overwhat grade to assign.
And you're also then agonizingabout giving those things back,
or at least I, I did.
Right.
Because when you give them back,then the students start, for
(11:11):
lack of a better term, gradegrubbing.
Especially if you have some ofthose higher academic kind of
classes where they're trying toas well, play the system and
just get that extra half a markout of you so that they could
bump their percentage up.
Right.
Katie (11:26):
Also, let's talk about IB grading and giving those
assignments back, because thatwas like the most stressful days
of my career teaching ib.
Anytime I had to hand somethingback, I was like, oh, I'm
waiting for it.
I'm waiting for it.
They're all gonna come back.
Rachel (11:39):
And yet last year when I did specs grading and I did
mastery based learning, I gotzero grade grubbing.
Katie (11:48):
Oh.
Rachel (11:49):
beautiful.
So I, you know, obviously I amplanning to continue forward
that way.
I've actually kind of laid itout a little bit differently
this year.
That's for another episodethough.
so I find like bringing in someof these equitable grading
practices that we will betalking about throughout this
series is going to really helpwith some of that grade gring
(12:11):
and some of that hate forgrading.
Katie (12:13):
and it, it does make me think like if, if I'm this
stressed about it and mystudents are complaining so
much, like obviously I haven'tmade the expectations very clear
and I haven't made the processtransparent enough because if
there was that opencommunication, there would be
less conflict or stress.
I don't know.
I don't teach IV anymore, so.
(12:37):
I also love this concept, of theweb of belief and how that plays
into it.
So this web of of belief isessentially all of our lived
experiences, truths based onthese experiences that we have
as individuals, our priorunderstanding and learning.
And, and how this shapes who weare as educators and our
(12:59):
teaching practices and gradingpractices and, and even how we
approach grading.
Rachel (13:05):
I love the web of belief too.
I think this is actually areally great sort of exercise
for you to do with your courseteam or with your department or
your leadership team even, whereyou just get out what your web
of belief is.
Some sort of brainstorming kindof activity, right?
Like what are all those beliefsthat you have about grading?
(13:28):
You know, do things like latemarks, like do they matter to
you?
What?
What about homework?
What about participation?
What about all the learningskills versus the academic
content?
Like where are your beliefssituated?
Because I don't think you canreally make really great change
to your grading practices untilyou understand where you're
(13:49):
starting from.
I.
Katie (13:50):
and your web of belief and the, and kind of that set of
beliefs you have, it really isgoing to influence even new
learning and, and how youapproach new learning and how
you react.
Because often it can bedefensive to new learning.
and, and it's important that wedon't just dismiss new ideas.
(14:11):
I think we need to think backand say, okay, what in my web of
belief, what in the beliefs thatI have about grading is making
me feel so strongly about thisand why?
Rachel (14:21):
Yeah.
And so he, he does talk quite abit about when we learn new
information, like what it, whatit does with our belief system.
So if we, um, we learn a newpiece of information, we might
immediately dismiss it.
Or we might accept it, and itdepends on how well it fits
within your web of belief
Katie (14:40):
Yes.
And then he provides some greatadvice with respect to our web,
web of belief and new learning.
And it's, and, and the thingthat stuck out to me, probably
Just based on how I react tothings and whatnot, is to be
aware of your reactions to newinformation.
Don't just react and not everthink about why you've reacted
(15:02):
that way.
If you're defensive it, it'simportant that you think about
why, like why is that making mefeel this way?
Because there's a reason for it.
And in order to be open to newlearning and new ideas and.
To be critical of our ownteaching practices.
I think these reactions areimportant to actually analyze a
little more.
Rachel (15:19):
And I think that like it, it's not just grading,
right?
Like that's being a moreequitable teacher and educator
is being aware of when you havethose reactions, because those
reactions are coming from like aplace deep down inside of some
sort of belief you have and.
(15:40):
Just by automatically dismissingit, you're not, you're not
necessarily looking at allsides, which if, if you're
trying to improve your equitylens, like that's not what you
wanna do.
Right?
Katie (15:53):
No, and it's, it's, it's even beyond equity.
Even if it's like, maybe youwanna try a new teaching
practice and then you hear aboutit and you're like, oh, I don't
like this.
I don't like this at all.
Or anytime there's PD presented,whether you like it or not, or
whether it's forced or not, youknow, sometimes.
it is being presented for areason, some better than others,
but it's worth kind of taking alisten and seeing what you can
(16:16):
learn from it.
Because let's be honest, yes,we're teachers and educators,
but we're still learning as wego through our careers.
Like learning doesn't stop assoon as you get that teaching
degree and get into a classroom.
Rachel (16:28):
I think it's also worth kind of saying like it's still
okay to have those reactions.
Just recognize when you havethem and know that, okay, if, if
something's making meuncomfortable, then I have to
dig a little bit deeper andunderstand why that's making me
uncomfortable.
Katie (16:44):
And I sometimes think about, Hey, I feel really
excited about this.
Why, what am I doing right nowthat is making me see this?
And like, get really excitedbecause obviously I'm, I'm
recognizing a need to change.
Rachel (16:56):
So I love the saying, get comfortable with being
uncomfortable.
Katie (17:00):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
It can be hard, but
Rachel (17:03):
It is very hard.
I try and live by it, butsometimes man, even I get like
really uncomfortable and I amnot comfortable with that.
Katie (17:10):
No, no, it can.
Yes.
It's hard, but it's good.
Rachel (17:14):
So, you know, as we, as we kind of go through this book
and this book study, we aregonna see like that there are a
lot of practices that maybewe've been doing in the past
that are not necessarilyequitable for students and that
are actually creating barriersfor our students and preventing
them from achieving the pathwaysthat they want to.
Katie (17:37):
I have nothing to add to that comment because that is a
perfect summary as to why weeven are diving into this book.
Rachel (17:43):
Yeah, it's, but um, just, again, like some of those
things you're gonna go, but wehave to, or if we don't, you
know, grade every singleassignment, then the students
won't do the work or you know,like there's so many beliefs
that we have about.
Students and about learning andabout grading that I think are
(18:07):
just gonna, really get put intoquestion here.
Katie (18:10):
Yeah.
And, and part of me then goesback to this whole idea of the
web of beliefs.
Like, I feel like, um, if you'rekind of on the fence, so you're
not really sure as as, as youdive into a book like this, it's
worth taking the time to sitdown and.
Brainstorm, what are yourfeelings about grading?
What are things that shouldcount?
What are things that should not,what are the things you like?
(18:32):
What are the fears you haveabout change?
because then I think you're in abetter place to approach a book
such as this, uh, which mightmake you question and, and
become defensive or unsure orangry at times because it
happens.
but I think it's important to gointo it knowing.
What your beliefs are?
Rachel (18:51):
I think one other emotion we do need to talk about
is guilt.
Katie (18:55):
Oh, yeah.
Rachel (18:56):
And so, I've been on this journey of changing my
grading practices for a fewyears now and learning all I can
about grading, and when I kindof look back on what I used to
do in my classroom versus what Ido now, I do feel a lot of
guilt.
And I, I kind of look back andquestion some of the grades that
(19:19):
my students ended up with incourses.
And I'm like, does that reallyrepresent their achievement?
And, and or have I put up thisbarrier now for them not being
able to do what they wanted todo?
Or I, like, you can startfeeling a lot of guilt.
About past practices, and Ithink what I'm trying to get to,
(19:43):
to saying here is, yeah, it'sthere, but you kind of just move
forward, like you have to moveforward.
It reminds me of this quote byMaya Angelou, where she, she
talks about, do your best untilyou know better, and then when
you know better, do better.
Katie (19:56):
I think that's perfect.
And it's true.
We do learn and so let the guiltgo because it's done.
It's over.
You've moved on.
you have a new set of studentsevery year or every semester,
whatever your system is.
have a new fresh start, and Ithink it's important to let the
past go and focus on doingbetter.
so one thing I like about thestructure of this book is at the
(20:20):
end of each chapter, you'regoing to notice that they have a
summary of the differentconcepts that have been
discussed.
and then there's also questionsfor you to consider.
And with that in mind, there'sactually a question that I
thought was worth having usshare with you, as we go through
our learning.
And that's question numberthree.
If you have the book, whatbrings you to this book?
(20:40):
What are your goals for readingit?
How will the way you read ithelp or hinder you from
realizing these goals?
So I thought Rachel and I wouldshare a little bit about, about
that with you so that you.
Also can kind of think aboutperhaps why you might want to
consider purchasing the book orfollowing along with our book
study.
Rachel (20:58):
You know this, I'm trying to remember back because
I have read this book a verylong time ago, and I think what
brought me to the book at thebeginning was that I had heard,
um, Jesse Stommel speak a fewtimes about un grading.
If you haven't heard him speak,I'll, I'll see if I can find
some links to some stuff onYouTube by him, but, he talks a
(21:20):
lot about UN grading and whygrades can cause so much harm to
students.
And you know, it kind of ledwith that sort of learning along
with, um, a lot of the equitykind of work that we were doing
as a board that brought me tothis book.
And that was sort of my goal forreading it is I'm like, okay,
(21:41):
how can.
I take my past grading practicesand bring that equity lens in
and, and learn more because, youknow, it's an area of my
practice that I still need tolearn.
Katie (21:53):
Yeah.
And for me, um, I, I always goback to e s l, but, but I'm
gonna go there again.
I think teaching e s l hasreally changed me as an educator
and, and how I approach thingsand, my belief system in terms
of grading and teaching.
and, and I think they have mademe better as an educator and
(22:14):
more open to the fact thatlearners in our classrooms are
all very different.
They are living different lives.
They walk in with a whole lotthat we don't get to know or see
half the time and, and they'vekind of opened my mind to
recognizing that I need tochange and, and I want to make
(22:35):
my practices more equitable forany student walking through my
classroom door, regardless ofwhat.
Their lives are like, or whatthey have been like, or what
they will be like.
So, I think my students havetaught me a lot and softened me
quite a bit in terms of mystance on grading.
and that's what brings me to thebook because I've been on and on
(22:57):
grading journey and, andmastery-based learning and, and
changing things up.
But I, I don't feel like mylearning is done and I think
that I still have more.
That I would like to change.
yes, so my goal is to continuemy learning, find some new
strategies, also.
Some of the research that hasgone into this book, I think
(23:17):
will be good in helping me tojustify some of these changes
and for those that need thatjustification, because let's be
honest, sometimes you do.
Um, and to also allow me to bemore transparent and explain
things to, to students, tofamilies, to administrators,
course teams, et cetera.
and I'm hoping that myopen-mindedness is going to help
(23:40):
me.
Approach this in an open way sothat I'm taking the ideas and
finding ways to apply them myclassroom.
Rachel (23:47):
Yeah, I think my goals are very, very similar.
And like I said, I have readthis book before, but rereading
it again and going through thisbook study.
I think I'm kind of goingthrough it now with a lens of
where is that evidence that Ican collect that.
Yes, I can answer some of thosequestions that folks have for me
(24:08):
whenever we're talking aboutgrading or opening those
conversations for grading andmore.
So where are the entry pointsthat I can.
Bring back to my department andmy course teams to get them kind
of thinking about gradingpractices and slowly shifting to
(24:28):
more equitable ones.
Katie (24:30):
Yeah, so that's a little bit as to where we're at and an
intro to this new book studythat we're just embarking on,
grading for equity.
Rachel (24:39):
So on that note, we will wrap up our conversation here
today, and so you can access anyof the links or resources we
talked about here today in ourshow notes.
You can access our shownotes@edugal.com slash one 30.
That's edu G a l s.com/onethree.
Katie (24:58):
And if you like what you heard today, then feel free to
share it with a colleague or afriend.
And don't forget to subscribe onyour favorite podcast app so
that you don't miss out on anyfuture content.
Rachel (25:08):
And as always, we'd love to hear from you, so especially
like what are your beliefsaround grading?
What is.
Your web of belief and you canfeel free to share anything you
want with us.
You can do that on our flip atedu.com/flipgrid, or you can go
onto our website@edu.com andleave us a written response.
Katie (25:29):
Thanks for listening and see you next week.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.