October 31, 2023 • 28 mins
In this episode, we are discussing the challenges and successes that we have experienced with destreaming in our classrooms. Specifically, we'll chat about the new grade 9 English curriculum, continuing efforts with other destreaming program areas, and how to best support teachers that are implementing destreaming.
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Featured Content
**For detailed show notes, please visit our website at https://edugals.com/136**
- Challenges and experiences we have had with implementing destreaming in our schools, specifically in grade 9 English, science, and math
- The importance of providing support and resources for teachers during the implementation process
- Challenges include lack of time and resources given to educators
- Need for additional support in grade 10 courses to ensure a smooth transition from destreaming to academic streams
- Additional pressures with teaching a new grade 11 curriculum (NBE course)
- Other episodes on destreaming:
Connect with EduGals:
- Twitter @EduGals
- Rachel @dr_r_johnson
- Katie @KatieAttwell
- EduGals Website
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rachel (00:40):
In this episode, we are revisiting de streaming and
giving you a bit of an update onwhere we are now.
Katie (00:47):
We will share the ups and downs of the de streaming
process and some of the greatthings that are happening in our
schools.
Rachel (00:53):
Let's get started.
This week, Katie and I arerevisiting the topic of de
streaming because lots hashappened since we last spoke
about this on the podcast.
And uh, yeah, we're just gonnaget right into it.
Katie (01:15):
Yes, so um, for those educators in Ontario, I'm sure
you are aware, but this year weintroduced the grade 9 English
de streamed curriculum and thenscience and math in the past.
What?
Last year?
Was that your first year?
Rachel (01:30):
Science was last year and then math was the year
before.
So we've been in Ontario doingde streaming for a couple of
years now.
Mm hmm.
Katie (01:39):
and so then we're just single streaming, so academic
programming for the remaininggrade 9 courses.
And it's been an interestingjourney so far, so I haven't
been on the receiving end or,you know, it hasn't affected my
curriculum area or leadershiparea as of yet until September,
so it's been a really kind ofinteresting shift and it's
(02:00):
fascinating to watch it unfold.
Rachel (02:02):
Now, before we get into it and get into, I guess, you
know, what we're seeing, thechallenges we're facing, you
know, how to really sort ofbuild that program.
I, I just want to mention theother episodes that we talked
about de streaming is episode 81as well as episode 48.
So they're kind of far backactually in terms of our
(02:25):
podcast, which is kind of cool,but yeah, definitely a topic we
need to talk about because lotshas happened since we last
chatted.
Katie (02:32):
Yes, and just as a disclaimer, I am all for de
streaming.
I really am.
I'm, I think it's somethingthat's needed and I think it
really does benefit morestudents than not and keeps
options open for longer.
So I'm actually happy with theconcept of de streaming.
I think it's like a timing thingfor me.
Like for me, it's Why do we geta curriculum at the end of June
(02:53):
that we're expected to implementin September when staffing
doesn't even finish until end ofAugust, and how do you do that?
Rachel (02:59):
Yeah, and it was very similar in terms of our
experiences with science.
We didn't get our curriculumuntil almost the end of the
previous school year, and thenwe had to just jump right in in
September.
And last year?
kind of reflecting back on it,it went well.
Like, it went well for our firstyear of implementation, and I'm
quite pleased with where we gotto.
(03:20):
But, man, it was, it was a lotof work.
It was a lot of us makingmistakes and figuring things,
things out as we went.
Katie (03:29):
Yes, totally.
And I think that because youapproached the course in a brand
new way with modern classroomapproach, I do think that's a
lot of why you did experience somuch success.
And I do wonder how it fared inschools where perhaps there
wasn't that total revamping ofprogramming.
Rachel (03:47):
Yeah, I, I kind of wonder that as well.
And I, I just saw it as theopportunity for like, hey, we've
got Uh, new curriculum.
I mean, it wasn't much differentfrom previous curriculum for
science, but you know, we got anew curriculum.
We have a new initiative, new, anew why behind what we're
teaching and how we'reapproaching it, that why not try
(04:09):
something new?
It was the perfect opportunityfor change.
Katie (04:12):
It was, and it still is.
And I think part of that now,you know, now that it's
affecting the, the educators inmy department, I'm kind of like,
I feel terribly because I knowthey weren't given the time or
resources to kind of roll thisout.
And there is some significantchanges in grade nine English in
terms of.
The way we're looking atliteracy, the, the right to read
(04:33):
report and how that affects evenhow we teach reading.
And kind of that trickle effectall the way through to these
higher grades.
So, there's been some, somepretty big changes.
And it can be tough because whenyou're not getting the resources
until so late in a school year,it's really hard to make sure
that everybody is confident andcomfortable and has time to to
(04:55):
plan effectively to rulesomething out.
In two months, but I, I do thinkthey're doing what they can with
it, but I think it's somethingthat I see as we do what we can
this year and let's build onbest practices as we go.
Rachel (05:09):
It really is just winging it at this point.
And it's, we, it's not becausewe want to wing it, or, I mean,
it's basically a need.
We've been put in this situationwhere you, you know, yeah, you
are given not enough resources,not enough time, and it's like,
here you go, you, you go do thisin your classroom, and you can't
(05:32):
really expect that that's goingto be perfect the first time
through.
Katie (05:36):
Yes, and I do think, you know, we did have that year of
single streamed English.
So academic English only.
And I think there was a lot oflearning that happened and a lot
of things that we figured outthat, Hey, this doesn't work
anymore.
How can we change it?
So I do think we were alreadykind of on our way in terms of
figuring out what are our nextsteps to support students.
(05:58):
So in some ways, you know,maybe.
We were better off than it couldhave been, because I know you
didn't have that same experienceof, you know, just single stream
and then de streamed, but Yeah,it's been an interesting
journey.
Rachel (06:10):
hmm.
Katie (06:12):
So I know boards are handling it differently, One
thing that I think is, Maybepromising, I'm not sure, we
haven't done any work yet, butour board does have people
coming in to support grade 9teachers in taking a look at
strategies that work what aresome more effective strategies
that can be used with, withinthe de streamed curriculum, etc.
(06:32):
So, I'm glad to see that ourboard is kind of taking it
seriously and looking to helpteachers.
Rachel (06:39):
I'm glad as well.
I, I kind of wish that thissupport was put into place for,
for math and science,especially, and when we went
single stream last year, I thinkit's really challenging,
especially for these uh, they'recalled instructional partners in
our board for theseinstructional partners to now
(06:59):
come in to programs that are destreaming that are So Kind of
already established.
So I, you know, we haven't had achance in our department to work
with them yet.
I'm kind of interested to seewhere it goes and what sort of
happens with that.
But I really wish we had had thesupport last year.
Katie (07:18):
Yes.
Now that is a ministry funding
Rachel (07:20):
Yes.
Yeah.
It's not our board.
It's, it's ministry funding for
Katie (07:24):
Yes.
But, but you're right becausenow we have year a year or two
if you're in math of establishedpractices and perhaps things are
working really well, right?
Rachel (07:34):
Yeah, and I think, just kind of coming from my
experience of doing coachingwork for a couple years, like,
that is a hard situation to comeinto, because there are going to
be educators who are going to belike, well, what we're doing
now, it's working, and it'sworking well, like, I feel like
our department's program thatwe've built up is really good,
that it, we're I don't know, Iwouldn't say it's not
(07:57):
necessarily that we're not open,it's just we're, we're already
got a good thing going that Idon't know how much we're going
to be willing to changenecessarily, maybe tweak and
add, but you can't keep askingeducators to add and add and add
to what they're already doingwhen what they're already doing
is taking up so much of theirtime, right?
(08:18):
So I feel like they have areally tough position coming
into this.
Katie (08:22):
Oh, 100%.
And it also kind of makes methink of new teachers.
Like, new teachers who are newto the practice, who are in a
classroom, already trying toplan, and are super nervous
about having other people seethem.
Because I remember those years,it was not easy.
Like, even TPAs were thescariest thing that I ever had.
It can be really hard to open upa classroom.
(08:43):
There's a lot of...
Anxiety and a lot of, I mean, Iguess it's a lack of confidence
in this uncertainty of am Igood, am I not, I'm still
learning, I'm still gettingbetter.
Rachel (08:53):
It's that dreaded imposter syndrome coming out.
Katie (08:56):
yeah, it really is.
Rachel (08:57):
it's a very scary thing to open up your classroom and
allow someone else to come in.
Katie (09:02):
Very.
And so it has to be dealt withquite sensitively.
And so I'm hoping, and I don'tknow what the experiences have
been so far.
But I'm hoping that um, it'sdone in.
A very positive way.
Rachel (09:14):
Yeah,
Katie (09:15):
Like gentle.
Rachel (09:16):
you're always treading a very fine line as a coach
because you know, like otherpractices that might benefit or
you might see something whenyou're in a classroom and go, Oh
my goodness, if they just didthis one other thing and built
on what they're already doing,like it would be amazing.
But you have to And it's liketeaching, right?
You have to build therelationships first.
(09:36):
Coaching is so based onrelationships and trust.
If you do not trust your coach,you're not going to listen to
your coach.
And so asking somebody to dosomething without that trust
there is just going to createmore barriers and more blocks
and And a lot of tension.
So finding that way in andtreading that line very, very
(09:59):
gently and starting small andlike little steps, you know,
there's so much that goes intoit.
I, I actually don't envy whatposition they're in.
And when I saw the posting comeup for her board for these uh,
coaching positions, I thoughtabout it for like, And then I'm
like, nope.
That is going to be a very hardthing to do.
(10:21):
And uh, well, like I'm reallyhappy in the classroom too and
being back there.
So, I kinda kinda just went,nope, I'm good.
Katie (10:31):
No, and I would be afraid, like, because all of the
work you're doing, if you wereto leave, would it disappear?
Would it stop?
Rachel (10:38):
And that's the big thing.
So with de streaming, like we'reyear two now into our science
program, and last year, my sortof position going into it is, if
I am asking my people to do allof these changes, and to like
really do a big 180 in terms ofhow we approach our instruction
and delivery of our program, Ineed to be in the weeds with
(10:58):
everyone.
So I taught grade 9 science.
I, I had four sections of itlast year.
So two thirds of my teachingload was grade 9 science, which
was very different for me too,but I've taken a step back this
year.
And I am not teaching grade ninescience this year.
I'm kind of more supporting fromthe side and making sure that
(11:19):
I'm still in there in theconversations, in the meetings
that they're having and tryingto still really take on as much
of a hands on approach as I can.
But I, I, I'm not in that gradenine classroom anymore.
So it's, it's kind of beeninteresting.
Katie (11:35):
Yes.
But now, you worked with others,so are those same teachers still
in there as well?
Rachel (11:40):
Yeah, so I tried to, when I was um, timetabling for
this year, I, I kept it veryintentional.
So, my core set of teacherswhere we developed the program
last year, pretty much all ofthem are teaching grade 9 again
this year.
And, like, they wanted tobecause we had put so much
blood, sweat, and tears intodeveloping this program.
(12:01):
Like, who wants you know, youkind of want another year now to
like build and grow in it.
And I don't know, to even kindof take a breath, right, and
have a year where it's like,okay, I did all this planning
and now the next year I can relyon that planning and start, you
know, tweaking and doing somesmaller things and kind of get a
bit of a breath of fresh air.
(12:21):
So I do have lots of establishedteachers, but I do have some new
teachers who have joined in aswell.
And so bringing them up to speedand, with all of the things that
we're doing has been, has beensome work
Katie (12:35):
Mm hmm.
Mm And has the grade, like, havethe grade ten teachers noticed
any difference, or do theynotice any sort of challenges,
or?
Anything based on what grade 9happened, what happened in grade
9.
Rachel (12:46):
Yeah.
You know, I think they are, andI think the challenges are being
seen in our academic stream,like not our, our pre IB stream
is, is fine.
It's, it's what it is becausebasically they're not really de
streamed anyway, but that's, I'mnot going to go down that path
and talk about that and why, whyI kind of take issue with that.
(13:08):
But um, our academic stream, Ithink it's kind of noticing that
maybe some students are, arekind of misplaced at that point
because the whole sort ofpurpose of de streaming is
giving the students theconfidence to try.
And to try the academic streamand not shut down any pathways,
(13:28):
but grade 10 science, and, andnow that it's academic is
significantly more challengingthat, uh, there are quite a few
more students struggling.
So I think the grade 10teachers, and I know this
happened for math as well, likethey need more support now with
like, well, what strategies canwe change?
And how can we change ourapproach to support those
(13:49):
academic students intransitioning from our de
streaming to our.
Um, And still successful.
Katie (13:57):
That's interesting.
I never, but that, I wonder ifthat's something to bring up
even board level and say, hey,you have these people who are
coaching and helping.
Can we also include grade 10?
Especially for like specificsubject areas where like that
content and skills that are,that are learned are really kind
of key for that next grade.
Rachel (14:16):
And like I said, I think us as a department, like, yes,
we still need to change and westill need to do things, you
know, keep working on our destreaming program.
But I think what we developed ispretty good.
Like, it's pretty good forensuring that our students are
successful in grade nine.
But.
Now, like, they are, butpossibly some of them are
(14:37):
struggling in grade 10.
And so we need that support.
Like, how do you support thattransition from de streaming to
an academic stream?
Katie (14:45):
And it also makes me wonder, what can we do
differently in grade 10 coursesto make content accessible to
all students?
Rachel (14:52):
and, and that's kind of a big thing as well, because
we've done modern classrooms.
A lot of our students are nowgetting into grade 10, and
they're like, what?
We don't get to, to, to try thistest a couple times?
We're not doing mastery checks,we're not, like, so they're,
they're asking a lot ofquestions, understandably,
because of their experience ingrade 9, so I know for sure we
(15:15):
need to work on our continuum,and we need to work on our grade
10 program, and kind of, youknow, just as a department,
we're, we're just kind of goingstatus quo at the moment, but I,
I think it's sort of, becomingreally apparent that that's
where we need to do some work.
Katie (15:31):
Well, there's something to be said about having these
check ins to make sure kids havethe skills before, you know, big
tests.
So, there, there is that hugedifference between traditional
teaching methods and somethingthat is all about check ins and
mastering skills and, yeah.
Rachel (15:46):
Yeah, so I almost think it's not even about making your
grade 9 D Streamed programsuccessful.
It's about how do we thensupport those transitions to
grade 10 and further?
Katie (15:55):
Yeah, and how can we get students to, to not be so afraid
of academic courses after thesegrade 90 streamed where we are
putting all of these supportsinto place?
Rachel (16:06):
Yeah.
it's almost like the supportsare just kind of dropping off.
You're right though.
I think the, our, our coaches,our instructional partners,
like, that's probably more wheretheir time is better spent.
If I'm being quite honest.
Katie (16:19):
Yes, especially for programs that are established.
So instead of looking at, unlessthere are struggles, Like, if
you have a strong grade 9 Dstream program, instead of
focusing on that program, itshould be in the grade 10 kind
of portion to address some ofthose gaps.
Rachel (16:34):
Yeah.
Katie (16:35):
Interesting.
Rachel (16:36):
know, maybe when we start working with them I'll
bring it up and suggest it andsay that that's where, as a
school, we are struggling and weneed support more so than our
grade nine program.
Katie (16:46):
Yeah, let me know.
Rachel (16:49):
Anyway, talk to me about English.
So how's it going so far?
We're, we're a couple months ora month or so into the school
year.
Katie (16:56):
So English has been interesting.
Um, There's been a lot ofchanges.
We also have a lot of new staffand new teachers.
So, and LTOs and all that goodstuff.
So it's, it's kind of a bit of amishmash in terms of kind of
consistency from year to year ofpeople.
One of our like key grade nineteachers was actually pulled to
work on one of these teams.
(17:16):
And so,
Rachel (17:17):
Oh, no.
Katie (17:19):
Yes.
Oh, no, it's correct.
And so um, that meant we'rebringing in, LTO, so a new
teacher who's brand new, hasn'treally had a chance to look at
the curriculum and so it's beeninteresting.
But they are trying, so there isthis movement away from core
novels.
More choice there's, there'sthis whole section of the
(17:40):
curriculum that's more focusedon foundations of language, so
looking more at, you know, thelittle pieces of words and the
sounds they make and how we canbuild awareness, prefixes,
suffixes, how we make sense ofthe language around us in more
complex texts.
It, it's interesting and, andfrom like a language acquisition
and literacy acquisitionstandpoint, which is my area of,
(18:02):
I don't know, nerdy passion.
I find it fascinating, but Iknow not everybody does.
And I know English grammarbecause of all of the languages
that I learned.
So French, Italian, Spanish inhigh school, and then my degree
in Spanish.
And so my confidence withEnglish grammar is only because
of my own learning processes.
and so I love it, but noteverybody does, and not
(18:24):
everybody can identify it withit all.
And so there is this return tounderstanding all of these
grammatical concepts, but noteverybody is there, because in
my high school experience, Inever had formal English grammar
taught to me.
Rachel (18:37):
I don't ever recall having it taught to me either.
And honestly, you could say likeadjectives and nouns and like
all of these things, and I'd belike, I don't know.
I don't know what they are.
Katie (18:49):
Yeah, so it is kind of a bit of a mind shift, because we
always think about, correctingwhen, It comes up.
You know what I mean?
So if we notice grammar errors,it's an opportunity to kind of
go over a concept and, andcorrect it.
Comma use, all that good stuff.
But um, there really is a focuson the teaching of it
explicitly.
And making sure studentsunderstand how all of the
(19:11):
language fits together.
It's fascinating.
Rachel (19:13):
modern classroom's it.
Katie (19:15):
Now that's, but that's a hard sell, right?
Not everybody is.
comfortable with
Rachel (19:19):
It is.
I get it.
And I get it.
I, yeah.
Katie (19:23):
So I see this year as like a, let's get through it,
let's figure it out, see how thepieces fit together.
And then kind of just keep adocument going of things that
are working and not.
Everyone has different teachingstyles, so how can we improve
for next year?
And maybe these coaches willhelp see, help see other gaps in
terms of approaches, etc.
(19:44):
that our teachers can then startto use.
Rachel (19:46):
So, what are, what are some of the big challenges that
you're seeing right now?
Katie (19:50):
Time.
I know I always say time is achallenge.
There really hasn't been, wellthere's been zero release time
for our grade 9 teachers toactually break it all down.
There was a writing team overthe summer that developed
resources, but when you're, whenyou're faced with a document or
email full of hyperlinks, whohas the time?
To sit there and go through itall, when you're day to day in
(20:13):
front of students and doing theeveryday stuff that you have to
do is very demanding.
So, I, I know the idea was oncethe coaches get there, there's
release time, but I almost wishthere was additional release
time at the beginning of theyear to kind of give them time
to focus on it and dissect itand break it apart and in course
teams brainstorm it.
Rachel (20:34):
That was a big challenge we had in our first year, too,
was time.
And it was a very similarscenario, right?
We had summer writing teams whocreated all these fabulous
resources, but we just didn'thave the release time to be able
to sit down and look at them anduse them and work on building
our own program.
Like, we were all doing it onour own time.
(20:56):
And I think many of us feltpretty burnt out after the year.
Katie (21:00):
Yeah.
Another challenge we have isthat our building is under
construction.
We have so many renovationsongoing, and we don't have a
library.
So it's great to talk aboutstudent choice and voice and
having them pick their ownbooks, but we don't have a place
for them to pick books from.
Sure, we can take them to theOakville Public Library down the
street, but there's also thingsinvolved in terms of forms and
(21:21):
being able to take them offschool property, and it's a lot.
Rachel (21:24):
yeah, we have, we have lots of renovations going on in
our buildings, too.
That's, it's kind ofinteresting.
So our elevator is beingrenovated and we started out our
school year, because ourworkroom for science is right
beside the elevator, we had noworkroom for until like this
past week, which is, as we'rerecording this, is the beginning
(21:46):
of October.
And English is not even backbecause they're, they're sort of
where we are, but up on thethird floor is not even back in
there is at least for a few moreweeks.
Now, I felt it was science.
Okay, I can only imagine whatour English counterparts are
feeling is that lack ofcohesiveness because we were
kind of just dispersedeverywhere.
(22:07):
not only do we have a lack oftime, but we have a lack of, I
guess, opportunities forcollaboration to happen because
we weren't even in the sameworkroom.
So, I, I can only imagine whatEnglish is going through now
with their first year of destreaming and also having that
sort of wrench thrown into thewhole sort of deal of trying to
figure out this de streamingthing.
Katie (22:28):
Yes, and our other challenge is that we've
introduced a new grade 11curriculum.
So we've replaced the ENG 3U and3C courses, so college and
university pathways, with theNBE course.
So The First Nations Métis andInuit Studies course, which is
still a focus on all the sameskills, but through kind of that
lens of Indigenous voice andIndigenous literature and works.
(22:52):
So, it's hard to balance theneeds of both, especially for
teachers that are teaching both.
Like, how do you look at thatand put the same amount of work
into both courses?
Rachel (23:03):
I was gonna ask, do you have teachers who are teaching
both?
Wow.
Mm hmm.
Katie (23:06):
Yes.
and it's not easy to look atthose needs and, and do both
well.
So, at least those teaching theNBE had more, like, preparation
time for the most part.
Some didn't find out they wereteaching it until June because
that's what happens when youtimetable and staff.
And, and so often I can'tguarantee courses to anybody
(23:27):
because it's all about wherethey fall.
So, It is an interesting yearwith a variety of challenges and
different priorities pulling usall over the map.
So, it's really challenging, butI have to say that they're
taking it so well, and inparticular the MBE team who had
time to kind of work together,they're hmm.
Rachel (23:49):
Yeah, and I think that's why we got through our grade
nine year.
Is because we all relied on eachother and it was such a great
team.
It still is a great team, right?
But we were all buildingresources together and sharing
them together and all kind oftaking on a piece of the work.
So without that, wow, it wouldbe so hard to do it all on your
(24:11):
own.
Katie (24:12):
Yes.
So I really wish that, in someways I wish the, the ministry
would say, Hey, we're going tobe implementing curriculum, but
we're going to give you a yearto do some professional
development about it before weactually start it.
Rachel (24:24):
Well, that would be nice.
Katie (24:25):
Wouldn't that be nice?
I get, like, I, but I liked theidea of single streaming until
we have the curriculum.
We just needed more time withthe actual curriculum itself.
Rachel (24:35):
Yeah, and like you, like, I have nothing against de
streaming.
I think it's fabulous.
I love it.
I love that it's affordingstudents opportunities to go
down pathways that might havetraditionally been, cut off for
them.
So, de streaming and the conceptof de streaming is needed.
It is necessary.
We saw even when we uh, in ourfirst episode or our last couple
(24:58):
episodes about the Grading forEquity book, like, streaming
came from practices over 100years ago and we need to get rid
of them and we need this change.
But it's, it's really, it putseducators in a very tough
position to ask them to do thiswithout giving them any time to
do it well.
Katie (25:17):
Yeah, and I think that's one thing we take personally
because we are so typicallyattacked by the public that we
really do want to do our jobswell.
We are not honestly, we wouldlove to actually be able to know
what we're teaching.
So having a little bit more timewould have been nice.
Rachel (25:31):
Yeah, I think that's my biggest beef too.
Katie (25:33):
But I'm hopeful.
I really am.
And we know the research showsthat You know, even an extra
year in academic or a pathwaybefore you make that decision is
good.
And we're not pushing universityfor all students.
Like, let's be clear, destreaming doesn't mean
university is better.
De streaming means those whomaybe perhaps wouldn't graduate,
or would drop out, or wouldn'tbe able to even be successful in
(25:56):
college pathways.
We're giving them time toactually build skills and
confidence in high school tothen go the pathway that they
want for their future.
Rachel (26:04):
Yeah, it's such a big transition for students to throw
pathway into there, too, is, isa lot.
So, I agree.
We need, the students need theyear to figure things out and to
figure out what pathway theywant to
Katie (26:18):
hmm.
Yes.
And everybody has a right totry.
And I think that's the biggestthing.
So yes, are some kids perhapsnot ready for academic in grade
10?
Sure.
But they have the right to tryit and, and to kind of work
through it and see maybe this Ican do if I try different ways
of learning and support systemsand but figuring out what they
want for themselves and not whatother people are telling them
(26:40):
they should want.
Rachel (26:41):
Yeah, I totally agreed.
Okay, on that note, I thinkthat's a good place for us to
stop here today and wrap up ourconversation.
By no means are we done talkingabout de streaming because this
is a learning process that isgoing to kind of continue for us
for probably in the next few
Katie (26:58):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Rachel (26:59):
Yeah, so uh, what we'll do is we'll include any of the
links or resources we talkedabout here today in our show
notes.
You can access our show notesfor this episode at edugals.
com slash 136.
That's edugals.
com slash 136.
Katie (27:16):
And if you like what you heard today, then feel free to
share it with a colleague or afriend.
And don't forget to subscribe onyour favorite podcast app so
that you don't miss out on anyfuture content.
Rachel (27:25):
And as always, we'd love to hear from you.
So if you have thoughts on destreaming, how it's going, what
challenges are you facing, wewould love to hear them.
You could go on to our flip atedugals.
com slash flipgrid and leave usa video message there, or you
can go on to our website atedugals.
com and leave us a writtenreply.
Katie (27:46):
thanks for listening and see you next week.
In this episode, we are revisiting de streaming and
giving you a bit of an update onwhere we are now.
Katie (00:47):
We will share the ups and downs of the de streaming
process and some of the greatthings that are happening in our
schools.
Rachel (00:53):
Let's get started.
This week, Katie and I arerevisiting the topic of de
streaming because lots hashappened since we last spoke
about this on the podcast.
And uh, yeah, we're just gonnaget right into it.
Katie (01:15):
Yes, so um, for those educators in Ontario, I'm sure
you are aware, but this year weintroduced the grade 9 English
de streamed curriculum and thenscience and math in the past.
What?
Last year?
Was that your first year?
Rachel (01:30):
Science was last year and then math was the year
before.
So we've been in Ontario doingde streaming for a couple of
years now.
Mm hmm.
Katie (01:39):
and so then we're just single streaming, so academic
programming for the remaininggrade 9 courses.
And it's been an interestingjourney so far, so I haven't
been on the receiving end or,you know, it hasn't affected my
curriculum area or leadershiparea as of yet until September,
so it's been a really kind ofinteresting shift and it's
(02:00):
fascinating to watch it unfold.
Rachel (02:02):
Now, before we get into it and get into, I guess, you
know, what we're seeing, thechallenges we're facing, you
know, how to really sort ofbuild that program.
I, I just want to mention theother episodes that we talked
about de streaming is episode 81as well as episode 48.
So they're kind of far backactually in terms of our
(02:25):
podcast, which is kind of cool,but yeah, definitely a topic we
need to talk about because lotshas happened since we last
chatted.
Katie (02:32):
Yes, and just as a disclaimer, I am all for de
streaming.
I really am.
I'm, I think it's somethingthat's needed and I think it
really does benefit morestudents than not and keeps
options open for longer.
So I'm actually happy with theconcept of de streaming.
I think it's like a timing thingfor me.
Like for me, it's Why do we geta curriculum at the end of June
(02:53):
that we're expected to implementin September when staffing
doesn't even finish until end ofAugust, and how do you do that?
Rachel (02:59):
Yeah, and it was very similar in terms of our
experiences with science.
We didn't get our curriculumuntil almost the end of the
previous school year, and thenwe had to just jump right in in
September.
And last year?
kind of reflecting back on it,it went well.
Like, it went well for our firstyear of implementation, and I'm
quite pleased with where we gotto.
(03:20):
But, man, it was, it was a lotof work.
It was a lot of us makingmistakes and figuring things,
things out as we went.
Katie (03:29):
Yes, totally.
And I think that because youapproached the course in a brand
new way with modern classroomapproach, I do think that's a
lot of why you did experience somuch success.
And I do wonder how it fared inschools where perhaps there
wasn't that total revamping ofprogramming.
Rachel (03:47):
Yeah, I, I kind of wonder that as well.
And I, I just saw it as theopportunity for like, hey, we've
got Uh, new curriculum.
I mean, it wasn't much differentfrom previous curriculum for
science, but you know, we got anew curriculum.
We have a new initiative, new, anew why behind what we're
teaching and how we'reapproaching it, that why not try
(04:09):
something new?
It was the perfect opportunityfor change.
Katie (04:12):
It was, and it still is.
And I think part of that now,you know, now that it's
affecting the, the educators inmy department, I'm kind of like,
I feel terribly because I knowthey weren't given the time or
resources to kind of roll thisout.
And there is some significantchanges in grade nine English in
terms of.
The way we're looking atliteracy, the, the right to read
(04:33):
report and how that affects evenhow we teach reading.
And kind of that trickle effectall the way through to these
higher grades.
So, there's been some, somepretty big changes.
And it can be tough because whenyou're not getting the resources
until so late in a school year,it's really hard to make sure
that everybody is confident andcomfortable and has time to to
(04:55):
plan effectively to rulesomething out.
In two months, but I, I do thinkthey're doing what they can with
it, but I think it's somethingthat I see as we do what we can
this year and let's build onbest practices as we go.
Rachel (05:09):
It really is just winging it at this point.
And it's, we, it's not becausewe want to wing it, or, I mean,
it's basically a need.
We've been put in this situationwhere you, you know, yeah, you
are given not enough resources,not enough time, and it's like,
here you go, you, you go do thisin your classroom, and you can't
(05:32):
really expect that that's goingto be perfect the first time
through.
Katie (05:36):
Yes, and I do think, you know, we did have that year of
single streamed English.
So academic English only.
And I think there was a lot oflearning that happened and a lot
of things that we figured outthat, Hey, this doesn't work
anymore.
How can we change it?
So I do think we were alreadykind of on our way in terms of
figuring out what are our nextsteps to support students.
(05:58):
So in some ways, you know,maybe.
We were better off than it couldhave been, because I know you
didn't have that same experienceof, you know, just single stream
and then de streamed, but Yeah,it's been an interesting
journey.
Rachel (06:10):
hmm.
Katie (06:12):
So I know boards are handling it differently, One
thing that I think is, Maybepromising, I'm not sure, we
haven't done any work yet, butour board does have people
coming in to support grade 9teachers in taking a look at
strategies that work what aresome more effective strategies
that can be used with, withinthe de streamed curriculum, etc.
(06:32):
So, I'm glad to see that ourboard is kind of taking it
seriously and looking to helpteachers.
Rachel (06:39):
I'm glad as well.
I, I kind of wish that thissupport was put into place for,
for math and science,especially, and when we went
single stream last year, I thinkit's really challenging,
especially for these uh, they'recalled instructional partners in
our board for theseinstructional partners to now
(06:59):
come in to programs that are destreaming that are So Kind of
already established.
So I, you know, we haven't had achance in our department to work
with them yet.
I'm kind of interested to seewhere it goes and what sort of
happens with that.
But I really wish we had had thesupport last year.
Katie (07:18):
Yes.
Now that is a ministry funding
Rachel (07:20):
Yes.
Yeah.
It's not our board.
It's, it's ministry funding for
Katie (07:24):
Yes.
But, but you're right becausenow we have year a year or two
if you're in math of establishedpractices and perhaps things are
working really well, right?
Rachel (07:34):
Yeah, and I think, just kind of coming from my
experience of doing coachingwork for a couple years, like,
that is a hard situation to comeinto, because there are going to
be educators who are going to belike, well, what we're doing
now, it's working, and it'sworking well, like, I feel like
our department's program thatwe've built up is really good,
that it, we're I don't know, Iwouldn't say it's not
(07:57):
necessarily that we're not open,it's just we're, we're already
got a good thing going that Idon't know how much we're going
to be willing to changenecessarily, maybe tweak and
add, but you can't keep askingeducators to add and add and add
to what they're already doingwhen what they're already doing
is taking up so much of theirtime, right?
(08:18):
So I feel like they have areally tough position coming
into this.
Katie (08:22):
Oh, 100%.
And it also kind of makes methink of new teachers.
Like, new teachers who are newto the practice, who are in a
classroom, already trying toplan, and are super nervous
about having other people seethem.
Because I remember those years,it was not easy.
Like, even TPAs were thescariest thing that I ever had.
It can be really hard to open upa classroom.
(08:43):
There's a lot of...
Anxiety and a lot of, I mean, Iguess it's a lack of confidence
in this uncertainty of am Igood, am I not, I'm still
learning, I'm still gettingbetter.
Rachel (08:53):
It's that dreaded imposter syndrome coming out.
Katie (08:56):
yeah, it really is.
Rachel (08:57):
it's a very scary thing to open up your classroom and
allow someone else to come in.
Katie (09:02):
Very.
And so it has to be dealt withquite sensitively.
And so I'm hoping, and I don'tknow what the experiences have
been so far.
But I'm hoping that um, it'sdone in.
A very positive way.
Rachel (09:14):
Yeah,
Katie (09:15):
Like gentle.
Rachel (09:16):
you're always treading a very fine line as a coach
because you know, like otherpractices that might benefit or
you might see something whenyou're in a classroom and go, Oh
my goodness, if they just didthis one other thing and built
on what they're already doing,like it would be amazing.
But you have to And it's liketeaching, right?
You have to build therelationships first.
(09:36):
Coaching is so based onrelationships and trust.
If you do not trust your coach,you're not going to listen to
your coach.
And so asking somebody to dosomething without that trust
there is just going to createmore barriers and more blocks
and And a lot of tension.
So finding that way in andtreading that line very, very
(09:59):
gently and starting small andlike little steps, you know,
there's so much that goes intoit.
I, I actually don't envy whatposition they're in.
And when I saw the posting comeup for her board for these uh,
coaching positions, I thoughtabout it for like, And then I'm
like, nope.
That is going to be a very hardthing to do.
(10:21):
And uh, well, like I'm reallyhappy in the classroom too and
being back there.
So, I kinda kinda just went,nope, I'm good.
Katie (10:31):
No, and I would be afraid, like, because all of the
work you're doing, if you wereto leave, would it disappear?
Would it stop?
Rachel (10:38):
And that's the big thing.
So with de streaming, like we'reyear two now into our science
program, and last year, my sortof position going into it is, if
I am asking my people to do allof these changes, and to like
really do a big 180 in terms ofhow we approach our instruction
and delivery of our program, Ineed to be in the weeds with
(10:58):
everyone.
So I taught grade 9 science.
I, I had four sections of itlast year.
So two thirds of my teachingload was grade 9 science, which
was very different for me too,but I've taken a step back this
year.
And I am not teaching grade ninescience this year.
I'm kind of more supporting fromthe side and making sure that
(11:19):
I'm still in there in theconversations, in the meetings
that they're having and tryingto still really take on as much
of a hands on approach as I can.
But I, I, I'm not in that gradenine classroom anymore.
So it's, it's kind of beeninteresting.
Katie (11:35):
Yes.
But now, you worked with others,so are those same teachers still
in there as well?
Rachel (11:40):
Yeah, so I tried to, when I was um, timetabling for
this year, I, I kept it veryintentional.
So, my core set of teacherswhere we developed the program
last year, pretty much all ofthem are teaching grade 9 again
this year.
And, like, they wanted tobecause we had put so much
blood, sweat, and tears intodeveloping this program.
(12:01):
Like, who wants you know, youkind of want another year now to
like build and grow in it.
And I don't know, to even kindof take a breath, right, and
have a year where it's like,okay, I did all this planning
and now the next year I can relyon that planning and start, you
know, tweaking and doing somesmaller things and kind of get a
bit of a breath of fresh air.
(12:21):
So I do have lots of establishedteachers, but I do have some new
teachers who have joined in aswell.
And so bringing them up to speedand, with all of the things that
we're doing has been, has beensome work
Katie (12:35):
Mm hmm.
Mm And has the grade, like, havethe grade ten teachers noticed
any difference, or do theynotice any sort of challenges,
or?
Anything based on what grade 9happened, what happened in grade
9.
Rachel (12:46):
Yeah.
You know, I think they are, andI think the challenges are being
seen in our academic stream,like not our, our pre IB stream
is, is fine.
It's, it's what it is becausebasically they're not really de
streamed anyway, but that's, I'mnot going to go down that path
and talk about that and why, whyI kind of take issue with that.
(13:08):
But um, our academic stream, Ithink it's kind of noticing that
maybe some students are, arekind of misplaced at that point
because the whole sort ofpurpose of de streaming is
giving the students theconfidence to try.
And to try the academic streamand not shut down any pathways,
(13:28):
but grade 10 science, and, andnow that it's academic is
significantly more challengingthat, uh, there are quite a few
more students struggling.
So I think the grade 10teachers, and I know this
happened for math as well, likethey need more support now with
like, well, what strategies canwe change?
And how can we change ourapproach to support those
(13:49):
academic students intransitioning from our de
streaming to our.
Um, And still successful.
Katie (13:57):
That's interesting.
I never, but that, I wonder ifthat's something to bring up
even board level and say, hey,you have these people who are
coaching and helping.
Can we also include grade 10?
Especially for like specificsubject areas where like that
content and skills that are,that are learned are really kind
of key for that next grade.
Rachel (14:16):
And like I said, I think us as a department, like, yes,
we still need to change and westill need to do things, you
know, keep working on our destreaming program.
But I think what we developed ispretty good.
Like, it's pretty good forensuring that our students are
successful in grade nine.
But.
Now, like, they are, butpossibly some of them are
(14:37):
struggling in grade 10.
And so we need that support.
Like, how do you support thattransition from de streaming to
an academic stream?
Katie (14:45):
And it also makes me wonder, what can we do
differently in grade 10 coursesto make content accessible to
all students?
Rachel (14:52):
and, and that's kind of a big thing as well, because
we've done modern classrooms.
A lot of our students are nowgetting into grade 10, and
they're like, what?
We don't get to, to, to try thistest a couple times?
We're not doing mastery checks,we're not, like, so they're,
they're asking a lot ofquestions, understandably,
because of their experience ingrade 9, so I know for sure we
(15:15):
need to work on our continuum,and we need to work on our grade
10 program, and kind of, youknow, just as a department,
we're, we're just kind of goingstatus quo at the moment, but I,
I think it's sort of, becomingreally apparent that that's
where we need to do some work.
Katie (15:31):
Well, there's something to be said about having these
check ins to make sure kids havethe skills before, you know, big
tests.
So, there, there is that hugedifference between traditional
teaching methods and somethingthat is all about check ins and
mastering skills and, yeah.
Rachel (15:46):
Yeah, so I almost think it's not even about making your
grade 9 D Streamed programsuccessful.
It's about how do we thensupport those transitions to
grade 10 and further?
Katie (15:55):
Yeah, and how can we get students to, to not be so afraid
of academic courses after thesegrade 90 streamed where we are
putting all of these supportsinto place?
Rachel (16:06):
Yeah.
it's almost like the supportsare just kind of dropping off.
You're right though.
I think the, our, our coaches,our instructional partners,
like, that's probably more wheretheir time is better spent.
If I'm being quite honest.
Katie (16:19):
Yes, especially for programs that are established.
So instead of looking at, unlessthere are struggles, Like, if
you have a strong grade 9 Dstream program, instead of
focusing on that program, itshould be in the grade 10 kind
of portion to address some ofthose gaps.
Rachel (16:34):
Yeah.
Katie (16:35):
Interesting.
Rachel (16:36):
know, maybe when we start working with them I'll
bring it up and suggest it andsay that that's where, as a
school, we are struggling and weneed support more so than our
grade nine program.
Katie (16:46):
Yeah, let me know.
Rachel (16:49):
Anyway, talk to me about English.
So how's it going so far?
We're, we're a couple months ora month or so into the school
year.
Katie (16:56):
So English has been interesting.
Um, There's been a lot ofchanges.
We also have a lot of new staffand new teachers.
So, and LTOs and all that goodstuff.
So it's, it's kind of a bit of amishmash in terms of kind of
consistency from year to year ofpeople.
One of our like key grade nineteachers was actually pulled to
work on one of these teams.
(17:16):
And so,
Rachel (17:17):
Oh, no.
Katie (17:19):
Yes.
Oh, no, it's correct.
And so um, that meant we'rebringing in, LTO, so a new
teacher who's brand new, hasn'treally had a chance to look at
the curriculum and so it's beeninteresting.
But they are trying, so there isthis movement away from core
novels.
More choice there's, there'sthis whole section of the
(17:40):
curriculum that's more focusedon foundations of language, so
looking more at, you know, thelittle pieces of words and the
sounds they make and how we canbuild awareness, prefixes,
suffixes, how we make sense ofthe language around us in more
complex texts.
It, it's interesting and, andfrom like a language acquisition
and literacy acquisitionstandpoint, which is my area of,
(18:02):
I don't know, nerdy passion.
I find it fascinating, but Iknow not everybody does.
And I know English grammarbecause of all of the languages
that I learned.
So French, Italian, Spanish inhigh school, and then my degree
in Spanish.
And so my confidence withEnglish grammar is only because
of my own learning processes.
and so I love it, but noteverybody does, and not
(18:24):
everybody can identify it withit all.
And so there is this return tounderstanding all of these
grammatical concepts, but noteverybody is there, because in
my high school experience, Inever had formal English grammar
taught to me.
Rachel (18:37):
I don't ever recall having it taught to me either.
And honestly, you could say likeadjectives and nouns and like
all of these things, and I'd belike, I don't know.
I don't know what they are.
Katie (18:49):
Yeah, so it is kind of a bit of a mind shift, because we
always think about, correctingwhen, It comes up.
You know what I mean?
So if we notice grammar errors,it's an opportunity to kind of
go over a concept and, andcorrect it.
Comma use, all that good stuff.
But um, there really is a focuson the teaching of it
explicitly.
And making sure studentsunderstand how all of the
(19:11):
language fits together.
It's fascinating.
Rachel (19:13):
modern classroom's it.
Katie (19:15):
Now that's, but that's a hard sell, right?
Not everybody is.
comfortable with
Rachel (19:19):
It is.
I get it.
And I get it.
I, yeah.
Katie (19:23):
So I see this year as like a, let's get through it,
let's figure it out, see how thepieces fit together.
And then kind of just keep adocument going of things that
are working and not.
Everyone has different teachingstyles, so how can we improve
for next year?
And maybe these coaches willhelp see, help see other gaps in
terms of approaches, etc.
(19:44):
that our teachers can then startto use.
Rachel (19:46):
So, what are, what are some of the big challenges that
you're seeing right now?
Katie (19:50):
Time.
I know I always say time is achallenge.
There really hasn't been, wellthere's been zero release time
for our grade 9 teachers toactually break it all down.
There was a writing team overthe summer that developed
resources, but when you're, whenyou're faced with a document or
email full of hyperlinks, whohas the time?
To sit there and go through itall, when you're day to day in
(20:13):
front of students and doing theeveryday stuff that you have to
do is very demanding.
So, I, I know the idea was oncethe coaches get there, there's
release time, but I almost wishthere was additional release
time at the beginning of theyear to kind of give them time
to focus on it and dissect itand break it apart and in course
teams brainstorm it.
Rachel (20:34):
That was a big challenge we had in our first year, too,
was time.
And it was a very similarscenario, right?
We had summer writing teams whocreated all these fabulous
resources, but we just didn'thave the release time to be able
to sit down and look at them anduse them and work on building
our own program.
Like, we were all doing it onour own time.
(20:56):
And I think many of us feltpretty burnt out after the year.
Katie (21:00):
Yeah.
Another challenge we have isthat our building is under
construction.
We have so many renovationsongoing, and we don't have a
library.
So it's great to talk aboutstudent choice and voice and
having them pick their ownbooks, but we don't have a place
for them to pick books from.
Sure, we can take them to theOakville Public Library down the
street, but there's also thingsinvolved in terms of forms and
(21:21):
being able to take them offschool property, and it's a lot.
Rachel (21:24):
yeah, we have, we have lots of renovations going on in
our buildings, too.
That's, it's kind ofinteresting.
So our elevator is beingrenovated and we started out our
school year, because ourworkroom for science is right
beside the elevator, we had noworkroom for until like this
past week, which is, as we'rerecording this, is the beginning
(21:46):
of October.
And English is not even backbecause they're, they're sort of
where we are, but up on thethird floor is not even back in
there is at least for a few moreweeks.
Now, I felt it was science.
Okay, I can only imagine whatour English counterparts are
feeling is that lack ofcohesiveness because we were
kind of just dispersedeverywhere.
(22:07):
not only do we have a lack oftime, but we have a lack of, I
guess, opportunities forcollaboration to happen because
we weren't even in the sameworkroom.
So, I, I can only imagine whatEnglish is going through now
with their first year of destreaming and also having that
sort of wrench thrown into thewhole sort of deal of trying to
figure out this de streamingthing.
Katie (22:28):
Yes, and our other challenge is that we've
introduced a new grade 11curriculum.
So we've replaced the ENG 3U and3C courses, so college and
university pathways, with theNBE course.
So The First Nations Métis andInuit Studies course, which is
still a focus on all the sameskills, but through kind of that
lens of Indigenous voice andIndigenous literature and works.
(22:52):
So, it's hard to balance theneeds of both, especially for
teachers that are teaching both.
Like, how do you look at thatand put the same amount of work
into both courses?
Rachel (23:03):
I was gonna ask, do you have teachers who are teaching
both?
Wow.
Mm hmm.
Katie (23:06):
Yes.
and it's not easy to look atthose needs and, and do both
well.
So, at least those teaching theNBE had more, like, preparation
time for the most part.
Some didn't find out they wereteaching it until June because
that's what happens when youtimetable and staff.
And, and so often I can'tguarantee courses to anybody
(23:27):
because it's all about wherethey fall.
So, It is an interesting yearwith a variety of challenges and
different priorities pulling usall over the map.
So, it's really challenging, butI have to say that they're
taking it so well, and inparticular the MBE team who had
time to kind of work together,they're hmm.
Rachel (23:49):
Yeah, and I think that's why we got through our grade
nine year.
Is because we all relied on eachother and it was such a great
team.
It still is a great team, right?
But we were all buildingresources together and sharing
them together and all kind oftaking on a piece of the work.
So without that, wow, it wouldbe so hard to do it all on your
(24:11):
own.
Katie (24:12):
Yes.
So I really wish that, in someways I wish the, the ministry
would say, Hey, we're going tobe implementing curriculum, but
we're going to give you a yearto do some professional
development about it before weactually start it.
Rachel (24:24):
Well, that would be nice.
Katie (24:25):
Wouldn't that be nice?
I get, like, I, but I liked theidea of single streaming until
we have the curriculum.
We just needed more time withthe actual curriculum itself.
Rachel (24:35):
Yeah, and like you, like, I have nothing against de
streaming.
I think it's fabulous.
I love it.
I love that it's affordingstudents opportunities to go
down pathways that might havetraditionally been, cut off for
them.
So, de streaming and the conceptof de streaming is needed.
It is necessary.
We saw even when we uh, in ourfirst episode or our last couple
(24:58):
episodes about the Grading forEquity book, like, streaming
came from practices over 100years ago and we need to get rid
of them and we need this change.
But it's, it's really, it putseducators in a very tough
position to ask them to do thiswithout giving them any time to
do it well.
Katie (25:17):
Yeah, and I think that's one thing we take personally
because we are so typicallyattacked by the public that we
really do want to do our jobswell.
We are not honestly, we wouldlove to actually be able to know
what we're teaching.
So having a little bit more timewould have been nice.
Rachel (25:31):
Yeah, I think that's my biggest beef too.
Katie (25:33):
But I'm hopeful.
I really am.
And we know the research showsthat You know, even an extra
year in academic or a pathwaybefore you make that decision is
good.
And we're not pushing universityfor all students.
Like, let's be clear, destreaming doesn't mean
university is better.
De streaming means those whomaybe perhaps wouldn't graduate,
or would drop out, or wouldn'tbe able to even be successful in
(25:56):
college pathways.
We're giving them time toactually build skills and
confidence in high school tothen go the pathway that they
want for their future.
Rachel (26:04):
Yeah, it's such a big transition for students to throw
pathway into there, too, is, isa lot.
So, I agree.
We need, the students need theyear to figure things out and to
figure out what pathway theywant to
Katie (26:18):
hmm.
Yes.
And everybody has a right totry.
And I think that's the biggestthing.
So yes, are some kids perhapsnot ready for academic in grade
10?
Sure.
But they have the right to tryit and, and to kind of work
through it and see maybe this Ican do if I try different ways
of learning and support systemsand but figuring out what they
want for themselves and not whatother people are telling them
(26:40):
they should want.
Rachel (26:41):
Yeah, I totally agreed.
Okay, on that note, I thinkthat's a good place for us to
stop here today and wrap up ourconversation.
By no means are we done talkingabout de streaming because this
is a learning process that isgoing to kind of continue for us
for probably in the next few
Katie (26:58):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Rachel (26:59):
Yeah, so uh, what we'll do is we'll include any of the
links or resources we talkedabout here today in our show
notes.
You can access our show notesfor this episode at edugals.
com slash 136.
That's edugals.
com slash 136.
Katie (27:16):
And if you like what you heard today, then feel free to
share it with a colleague or afriend.
And don't forget to subscribe onyour favorite podcast app so
that you don't miss out on anyfuture content.
Rachel (27:25):
And as always, we'd love to hear from you.
So if you have thoughts on destreaming, how it's going, what
challenges are you facing, wewould love to hear them.
You could go on to our flip atedugals.
com slash flipgrid and leave usa video message there, or you
can go on to our website atedugals.
com and leave us a writtenreply.
Katie (27:46):
thanks for listening and see you next week.
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