February 5, 2025 • 26 mins
In this episode, we discuss the importance of psychological safety, open communication, and accountability in leadership. Learn how fostering a culture of honesty can prevent small issues from becoming major crises, why some people struggle to admit mistakes, and how leaders can create an environment where transparency thrives.
Why bad news should be shared early
The difference between honest mistakes and performance issues
How psychological safety impacts team success
Vetting leadership candidates for transparency
Feel free to send us an email at info@emotionalintelligents.com and share your thoughts or visit us at https://linktr.ee/emotionalintelligents
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
I've noticed that women in the workplace,
leadership positions andnon-leadership positions, when
there is a problem, their cardsgo down on the table and they
let you know, like, hey, we havea problem.
I screwed up.
What should we do here?
Men, on the other hand, theywill go to freaking Kalamazoo,
Michigan and back trying to finda way to fix the problem before
(00:22):
they actually fess up and say,I've made a mistake here.
Welcome to the EmotionalIntelligence Podcast, a podcast
diving into how emotionalintelligence can be unleashed to
turn great people into greatleaders.
(00:43):
And now, your hosts, Ismail andSamir.
Hey, Ismail, how's it going?
Hey, Samir, doing well.
How about yourself?
Good, good, good.
I'm excited to get anopportunity to record with you
today.
It's been a while since we'vesunk up.
For sure, yes.
All right, cool.
Well, Ismael, I got to say,there's something that you said
(01:05):
in previous episodes a number oftimes.
And I think it was somethingalong the lines of, if you have
made a mistake or if you havesomething, some bad news to
share, I will not get mad at youif you come and tell me first.
That's right.
Before I hear it from somebodyelse.
(01:26):
That's right.
Yes, I was thinking about that.
And I just think that that'ssuch an interesting...
thought, right?
And I wanted to ask you kind ofwhy of all of the lessons that
you've imparted on your teamsover the years, why that's one
of the ones that always kind offinds itself at the top of the
Rolodex for you.
So
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
I think a couple of reasons.
One, I've had managers, I'vebeen in situations where I
haven't felt comfortable or safeenough to be able to go and say,
hey, I screwed up.
We'll say partly on me andpartly on my manager or leader.
And I know how much stress andanxiety, like making a mistake
(02:07):
and having the fear of having totell someone is and how trivial
it actually is in the grandscheme of things.
SPEAKER_01 (02:14):
Is it though?
Is it though trivial?
That's where I wanted to go withit.
Next is like, let's say thatyou're in a situation where
somebody is making a mistakethat is material or something
that's really actually like, youknow, I'm not talking about they
missed a date, but I'm talkingabout they did something where,
you know, it's causing, uh, Alarge financial issue or, you
(02:38):
know, like there's actualconsequences of this mistake.
How do you handle that?
Like, because you're saying ifyou come and tell me about it,
you're not going to get in
SPEAKER_00 (02:46):
trouble.
You're not going to get I'm notgoing to like I'm not going to
be yelling at you.
You're not going to get introuble.
Like, how could you I'm notgoing to berate you or anything
like that.
But we're going to come to asolution.
Could there be consequences inthe sense of like.
Yeah, you really messed up.
That doesn't look great for you.
You're going to have to recoversomehow.
Sure, that's always the case.
But am I going to make you feelbad about this?
(03:07):
No.
And look, I mean, when we talkmaterial, when I say grand
scheme of things, I'm literallytalking about the grand scheme
of things.
Like in life, at work, amistake.
I mean, people makemulti-million dollar mistakes.
And is it bad?
Yeah.
Should they have to suffer forit?
No.
They should not suffer for it.
(03:27):
That's kind of my rationale.
SPEAKER_01 (03:29):
Let's say that you're in a situation where the
person's not maybe making thesame mistake, but there's been a
series of mistakes that arehappening.
And at the root of it, it feelslike there is a disconnect where
this person just does not havethe ability to come and tell you
when there is bad thingshappening.
(03:50):
Sure.
They're very...
Uh, comfortable coming to youwith good news and positive
updates, but if there'ssomething bad, they just want to
sweep that bad boy under therug.
And you see that happening overand over again.
How do you handle
SPEAKER_00 (04:02):
that situation?
Well, to me, that is 100% aperformance related issue.
That is, I mean, call it whatyou want.
Call it whatever skill you wantto put it in.
Communication, troubleshooting,mitigating, risk mitigate,
whatever you want to call it.
That is 100% a performancerelated thing.
And I think we should be clearabout mistakes that are made
(04:24):
because of negligence orperformance related.
They just don't know.
They keep, you know, theyhaven't learned their lesson
sort of thing.
And one that is honest, anyleader that is remotely
talented, remotely talented cantell the difference.
And if it's honest, then that'sone category.
And those are the ones thatpeople should be more open in
(04:47):
talking about.
And then there'sperformance-related ones that
they're hiding it from you forwhatever reason.
They can't tell you.
They don't know how to tell you.
They're too scared to tell you.
Or they just don't think it's aproblem.
I'm curious, where would youfocus?
What particular one troubles youthe most?
That's a good
SPEAKER_01 (05:05):
question.
I think for me...
If somebody is having troublecoming to me and telling me bad
news, the first thing I'm goingto do is look in the mirror and
say, is there something that Iam doing to stop or prevent this
person from feeling comfortablecoming to me?
(05:29):
A leader has a responsibility tocreate a psychologically safe
environment where people canfeel vulnerable, where they can
feel innovative, where they canfeel like they can come with new
ideas.
But part of that psychologicallysafe environment is to be able
to come and share things whenthey're not going well either,
(05:51):
right?
Yeah, so I have to kind of get alittle introspective, do a quick
audit of myself, I will feelvery much obligated to have that
conversation.
(06:21):
discussion, that open discussionand let them know that like, if
it's something I'm doing, tellme what it is that's actually
causing this issue.
And I will try to, you know, fixthe issue.
I think what troubles me more iswhen I've completed the
self-assessment and I reallycan't identify a reason why
they're doing this.
(06:41):
And then it turns into, okay,this is something that's a
little outside of my control.
What if this individual just hasa Like a deficiency or– And that
(07:16):
to me is much more difficult todeal with because I feel like I
don't know how to stop them frombeing able to do or how to
change them
SPEAKER_00 (07:23):
really.
Yeah.
I mean, look, so I know youwell.
And I mean, the fact that youlooked at yourself first or that
you would.
look at yourself first.
That is huge.
That's a skill.
That's a lot.
That is, I mean, everyone shouldlook at it that way, regardless
of how obvious it is.
Just like double, you know,check themselves.
That's number one.
So kudos to you.
(07:44):
But on the other hand, I mean,I'm assuming, uh, like if this
were me, let me put myself in,in this person's, this, this
manager's shoes, this leader'sshoes, who's working with
someone who has an inability totalk to them, uh, or
communicate, uh, I mean, thefrank conversation has to
happen.
So it's like one, hey, did youknow that you aren't able to
communicate to me before thingsgo terribly wrong and you make
(08:07):
my life harder or it actuallymakes it harder?
Your life would be easier.
Our lives would be easier.
We would be more successful ifyou came to me earlier.
Step one happens again.
Repeat the conversation.
And then maybe a little bitdeeper and the sense of like, is
there a particular reason thatyou couldn't come to me?
Was it something that I did?
(08:27):
Is it the situation?
A third time it happens.
Now we're personally– and again,let's make an assumption that
it's a material issue, right?
We're talking money is beingburned.
Relationships are being burned.
I think– A very firm, strongperformance related conversation
needs to happen.
And I'm not one to give up onpeople very, very quickly.
(08:50):
Right.
But there are certain situationswhere like ability comes into
play.
You're like, maybe this personisn't in the right place.
Maybe their role is not in theright place.
They can succeed.
Maybe they're good.
You might consider themtalented, but they may be more
trouble than it's worth in thelong run.
SPEAKER_01 (09:10):
Yeah.
And sometimes you put people inhigh stakes positions where they
have to take the brunt of theresponsibility and
accountability.
And with that comes a need to beable to come back to the
business and say, Hey, look,there is a problem.
I'm raising a red flag here andit is incumbent on me to share
this because I have a title thatrequires me to do this.
(09:33):
It's kind of my fiduciary dutyto my department.
And if I'm incapable of doingthat, then, really, that's a big
part of my job.
So I guess that when somepeople, like you said, I agree
with you that it could be thatin a lesser role or something
that's more of like anindividual contributor role
(09:54):
where they're doing somethingthat's not as high stakes, that
they might be able to besuccessful.
And I think that this issomething that is very
underrated when we look at Whenwe look at candidates for
promotions, when we look atcandidates for leadership
positions in the future orsomething that I definitely do
(10:15):
already is I vet this in aninterview process because it's
tell me about a situation whereyou screwed up.
Tell me what you did.
How did you approach thesituation?
And I look to see like, was oneof the first things they say
that they went and told theirboss.
SPEAKER_00 (10:31):
People are scared to do that.
They, it is, I mean, I think notto add humor or inject humor or
belittle the situation, but youknow, there's some childhood
trauma there in thosesituations.
And
SPEAKER_01 (10:42):
you know, it's even like taking into stuff earlier.
Like I've noticed this and thisis, I don't have empirical data
to back this up.
There may be studies on this.
I have not looked into it.
But this is my podcast, so I cantalk about whatever I want.
(11:18):
When there is a problem, theircards go down on the table and
they let you know, like, hey, wehave a problem.
I screwed up.
What should we do here?
Then on the other hand, theywill go to freaking Kalamazoo,
Michigan and back trying to finda way to fix the problem before
they actually fess up and say,I've made a mistake here.
(11:41):
And in that process, they end upreally dying.
making the situation worse in alot of situations.
Cause you know, like one of thethings that one of my mentors
told me and in a position that Ihad many, many years ago, he,
he, he always said to me, Samir,bad news does not age.
Well, bad news does not age.
(12:01):
Well, he's like, as soon as youknow something bad, Let others
around, you know, let me know,let your boss know because bad
news does not age well.
And I've learned, I learnedthose lessons early in my
career.
Now, as soon as I find out aboutsomething, I just throw it on my
boss's radar.
Even if I'm like, Hey, this isgoing on.
(12:24):
This is the 15 things I'm doingto try to fix it right now.
But I'm just letting you knowthat this is happening.
SPEAKER_00 (12:30):
You got to admit they appreciate that your
manager appreciates.
And that's why I want to knowwhen I say like, just tell me, I
want to know because...
one of them is I can help fixit.
If I, you know, obviously if Ican, I will.
The other is like, I want to letmy manager know.
And maybe their manager wantstheir manager, like let their
manager know who knows.
Right.
It makes life so much easier.
And yeah, it's like ripping thebandaid off.
(12:50):
It stings.
Right.
It does sting.
There's no question about it,but come on in the long run,
any, any, um, reasonable personhas been in a situation where
they've had to hide somethingand it just, it never ends well.
And let's say you are successfulin fixing it you probably shaved
off like two three years of yourlife was it really worth it no
SPEAKER_01 (13:14):
yeah like i mean i think you know by nature i might
be a little bit more of anavoider myself you know like i'm
kind of like a no news is goodnews sometimes you know and it's
not one of the qualities aboutmyself that i i really love you
know but obviously at work it'sa little bit different you know
um in the workplace it requiresthat sometimes you gotta you
gotta go cut you know, againstyour nature, you know, sometimes
(13:38):
it's like, yeah, at home, thisflies at work.
This doesn't, you know, but I dosee sometimes instinctually me
facing a situation and not,Right away being like, okay, I
need to raise a red flag.
Like, I think to myself, like,all right, I got a couple of
days to figure this out andthat's okay.
But like, it's funny.
I have like, you know, one ofthe females that reports to me
(14:01):
is very adamant that like, Hey,you need to throw this on your
boss's radar.
Like we should let them know.
And I'm like, you think so?
Like, okay, yeah, let's do it.
You know?
But like, it's, it's because,and even though that situation
was not even my fault, somebodyunder, you know, in my
organization's fault, I I stillfind that sometimes it's just
(14:22):
like instinctually you're like,that's not your gut reaction,
right?
Let me go tell on myself.
And that's a hard thing tobalance.
SPEAKER_00 (14:34):
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(14:56):
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Now let's get back to the show.
I do think, I mean, you know howyou're saying there's fault, but
then there's responsibility,right?
Yeah, it's not your fault.
But at the end of the day, yourteam, your organization, your
responsibility, everything is onyou.
(15:17):
And that's the way it should be.
Like your job is to take all ofthe blame and give away all of
the credit.
That is actually, that's how yousucceed at the end of the day.
Now, okay, fine.
You got to sell yourself in thesense of for promotion.
You want to talk about the goodstuff, but the way you succeed,
you know, in, in, in the biggerpicture, not by little, little
(15:37):
projects, little, little wins.
It's the big picture.
And how you do that is you justtake the brunt, you take all the
crap and you put it under yourarm and you walk around with it.
And that is your cross to bear.
And your team is there like,okay, I got my, my, and this is
why they have to come and tellyou.
So you can do that for them.
SPEAKER_01 (15:56):
Let you like, yeah, you're the stress filter.
That's why you get paid morethan they do.
Right.
Yeah.
In a lot of respects.
It's not because always you havemore technical skill experience.
It's your ability to weatherthose storms in a more
productive manner.
But it's so funny that youbrought up the cycle, like, you
know, the deep.
rooted psychological childhoodtrauma.
(16:19):
Because, man, that stuff carrieswith you, right?
I guess the reason I broughtthis conversation sort of to the
forefront is because I really dothink that in the workplace, an
important skill is the abilityto deliver bad news.
And I don't think it's talkedabout enough.
(16:40):
And I think that a lot ofleaders are struggling to Yeah.
(17:06):
And it's a lot of timesavoidable and they're doing it
to themselves because they havean inability to share that bad
news.
It's not that they don't thinkit's the right thing to
SPEAKER_00 (17:16):
do.
I guarantee if there isn't abook on it already.
You should write one or weshould write one, whatever.
But there has to be a bookspecifically on this topic, like
how to deliver bad news to yourmanager.
We can Google it.
We can Google the crap out of itand we're going to find a
thousand things.
But you are right.
I think there is a skill thatshould be put in the job
(17:38):
description, ability to deliverbad news.
because it is a skill andthey're inevitably going to
happen.
Yes.
And a couple of things.
One is you got to know when todo it, right?
We, you know, it's not just likeevery single red flag.
You're like, Oh boy, I'm goingto go tell my manager.
That's, that's a problem in anut for another reason, right?
(17:58):
You have to look at, we'retaking the assumption that the
manager takes it well, right?
And there are situations and,and I don't think we should, we
necessarily have to get intothis, but there are situations
where you're, it doesn't matterwhat you do or what you say to
your manager.
They're just that way.
And that's a place you probablyshouldn't be working anyways, or
that person shouldn't be amanager.
So we can kind of like take thatoff the table.
SPEAKER_01 (18:19):
Yeah.
If you have a super toxic bosswho really doesn't make it easy
for you to come to them with badnews, then that's a situation
where you may potentially needto try to move to a different
team or leave the company orfind something less toxic and
better for you.
But if your boss is a decentleader and is going to listen to
(18:41):
you if you come to them andyou're just not able to do it,
you need to figure that out.
You need to do thatself-assessment.
You need to figure out whyconfrontation, the fear of
conflict, why you're sweepingthings under the rug.
Why are you avoiding things?
Um, because I, you know, in thelong run, it's just, it's just
going to be tear dutch.
SPEAKER_00 (19:02):
Let me ask you a question.
Um, Well, I'll start with astatement and ask you a question
is that I know personally, I'vebeen in several situations where
I've made a mistake or a mistakeis occurring or could occur.
And I'm just so not lookingforward on bringing it up.
I just don't want to because youknow, you know, maybe it was
(19:25):
just such a mundane situation.
And you really made a mistake orit's such a huge issue.
There's nothing that could havestopped it.
Like, you know, those are twoends of the spectrum and you
really don't want to bring itup.
Um, I've gotten over that.
So my question to you is, andhow soon, what was your process?
How did you go through theprocess of being afraid?
(19:46):
Cause I think everyone is at thebeginning to being comfortable.
What happened?
I know it was one person saidsomething to you, your manager,
but anything else?
Your mentors, right?
SPEAKER_01 (19:55):
Yeah, we talked about the bad news does not age
well.
I think for me, what helps me alot is to practice those
conversations before I havethem.
So I do this all the time when Ihave to have a difficult
conversation with my boss or Ihave to go deliver a bad update
or bad news that I know is goingto really...
(20:17):
have an impact on my bossemotionally and potentially even
on the work itself, I practicethe conversation.
So I really set out how I'mgoing to say it.
This is how I'm going to delivermy message.
This is kind of the points thatI'm going to bring up right
after on the heels of thatmessage on how I'm planned to
(20:37):
come up with solutions andthings like that.
And then I envision the absoluteworst, worst reactions that my
boss can have.
And then I envision the bestreaction.
And then I try to convincemyself that it's going to be
somewhere in between those twothings.
So you're, you're willing thismiddle ground.
(20:59):
You're willing it.
Yeah.
I love it.
Because sometimes, honestly,like when you do something and
you're, and you're upset withyourself and you've really
screwed up, you kind of want toget yelled at.
Like, I don't know.
That's just me.
Like if I made a mistake, like atrue mistake, I, and I went to
my boss and I was like, listen,like, you know, there's this
(21:20):
$250,000 miss.
Like this is on my team.
You know, I dropped the ballhere.
I didn't have process in placeto catch this.
And if my boss was just like,Ah, don't worry about it.
Don't worry about it, man.
We'll, we'll get it figured out.
I'm sure by the end of the year,you know, uh, something will
come in, you'll be able tobalance it out.
We'll figure it out.
And which is probably what'sgoing to happen.
(21:42):
Right.
But if that was a reaction Igot, I would have been like, you
know, I don't know how I wouldtake that.
I've never gotten a reactionlike that.
I don't know if I would be like,okay, are you like high right
now?
Or, or would I just be like, uh,you know, like, okay, I guess
it's not a big deal.
Let's just go have another miss.
I don't know how I would react.
But sometimes, yeah, man, youjust kind of want to get reamed.
SPEAKER_00 (22:02):
You just want to get – you have these expectations.
You're just like, just come on.
Let me take my lashing so I canmove on.
Exactly.
I need closure here.
Just
SPEAKER_01 (22:11):
yell at me.
Just tell me I'm an idiot.
You're going to be fine.
SPEAKER_00 (22:16):
That's terrible.
You're right.
You're right.
I'm not sure if I have had oneof those situations.
I think I've had thosesituations where I thought– it
was a major issue and I reallybuilt it up in my head.
And it turned out that like mymanager was like, Oh yeah, I
already knew about that.
It's dealt with.
Don't worry about it.
Or yeah, this happens.
This is like really common.
Like, man, I wish I came to yousooner.
I wish I did.
(22:36):
But yeah, these are, they'rerare where it kind of is.
And those are the unexpectedones, but happy, unexpected,
SPEAKER_01 (22:43):
you know, but then there's the ability to, to share
bad news or, or deliver badnews.
That's just like the pure, like,Meaning, yeah, but then there's
also a skill related to how todeliver bad news that, you know,
I've had to work on a lot overthe years and, and, you know,
I've really taken the approachof like, you just state the raw
(23:06):
kind of don't sugarcoat, butthen right after you state it,
you better have some reallysolid reasoning as to why it
happened and what you're goingto do to make sure it never
happens again.
And I found that, you know, whenI do that, like, it usually is
like, you see the face, like,you know, you see your boss's
(23:28):
face go red and then it kind oflike calms down because they're
like, all right, if I just cameand stated it and acted
unapologetic or, you know, mytone was kind of like, yeah,
this happened, you know, whatare you going to do about it?
Like, That's different, right?
And people do that.
And it could be, again, justchildhood trauma or they just
(23:49):
never learned how to have thoseconversations.
But there are people who I'veseen in the workplace deliver
bad news as if like– It was notan issue.
It was not their fault or theyhad nothing to do with it.
This happened when 100% of thefault is on them.
I
SPEAKER_00 (24:06):
can feel rage bubbling up just inside.
It's annoying.
It's very frustrating.
You can't take ownership,accountability, responsibility I
mean, do that at the very least.
Do that.
Right.
And I mean, I think, but justgoing, taking a really quick
step back, like guys out therewill just say, you know, you
have more of a problem thanothers admitting you made a
(24:28):
mistake.
Just admit the mistake.
Just admit it.
Move on.
Right.
And for anyone out there, justadmit the mistake.
It's really, really not a bigdeal.
I mean, I will always say thingslike we're not, Uh, saving
lives, meaning, and I knowthat's kind of a cliche, but
lives are not on
SPEAKER_01 (24:46):
the line.
Yeah.
Not in the, not in the, like theline of work that most of us are
doing.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah, man.
A hundred percent.
And you know, some of the bestlessons that I've learned in,
in, in work at work over theyears have been, Yeah.
(25:20):
you know, as a fellow leader.
And I hope that our listenersgot something valuable out of
this conversation.
And, you know, we always lookforward to your guys's feedback.
Feel free to reach out to us onInstagram, LinkedIn, connect
with us and follow us.
And till next time.
Thank you, everyone.
(25:42):
We'll see you next time.
(26:12):
We'd love to hear from you.
I've noticed that women in the workplace,
leadership positions andnon-leadership positions, when
there is a problem, their cardsgo down on the table and they
let you know, like, hey, we havea problem.
I screwed up.
What should we do here?
Men, on the other hand, theywill go to freaking Kalamazoo,
Michigan and back trying to finda way to fix the problem before
(00:22):
they actually fess up and say,I've made a mistake here.
Welcome to the EmotionalIntelligence Podcast, a podcast
diving into how emotionalintelligence can be unleashed to
turn great people into greatleaders.
(00:43):
And now, your hosts, Ismail andSamir.
Hey, Ismail, how's it going?
Hey, Samir, doing well.
How about yourself?
Good, good, good.
I'm excited to get anopportunity to record with you
today.
It's been a while since we'vesunk up.
For sure, yes.
All right, cool.
Well, Ismael, I got to say,there's something that you said
(01:05):
in previous episodes a number oftimes.
And I think it was somethingalong the lines of, if you have
made a mistake or if you havesomething, some bad news to
share, I will not get mad at youif you come and tell me first.
That's right.
Before I hear it from somebodyelse.
(01:26):
That's right.
Yes, I was thinking about that.
And I just think that that'ssuch an interesting...
thought, right?
And I wanted to ask you kind ofwhy of all of the lessons that
you've imparted on your teamsover the years, why that's one
of the ones that always kind offinds itself at the top of the
Rolodex for you.
So
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
I think a couple of reasons.
One, I've had managers, I'vebeen in situations where I
haven't felt comfortable or safeenough to be able to go and say,
hey, I screwed up.
We'll say partly on me andpartly on my manager or leader.
And I know how much stress andanxiety, like making a mistake
(02:07):
and having the fear of having totell someone is and how trivial
it actually is in the grandscheme of things.
SPEAKER_01 (02:14):
Is it though?
Is it though trivial?
That's where I wanted to go withit.
Next is like, let's say thatyou're in a situation where
somebody is making a mistakethat is material or something
that's really actually like, youknow, I'm not talking about they
missed a date, but I'm talkingabout they did something where,
you know, it's causing, uh, Alarge financial issue or, you
(02:38):
know, like there's actualconsequences of this mistake.
How do you handle that?
Like, because you're saying ifyou come and tell me about it,
you're not going to get in
SPEAKER_00 (02:46):
trouble.
You're not going to get I'm notgoing to like I'm not going to
be yelling at you.
You're not going to get introuble.
Like, how could you I'm notgoing to berate you or anything
like that.
But we're going to come to asolution.
Could there be consequences inthe sense of like.
Yeah, you really messed up.
That doesn't look great for you.
You're going to have to recoversomehow.
Sure, that's always the case.
But am I going to make you feelbad about this?
(03:07):
No.
And look, I mean, when we talkmaterial, when I say grand
scheme of things, I'm literallytalking about the grand scheme
of things.
Like in life, at work, amistake.
I mean, people makemulti-million dollar mistakes.
And is it bad?
Yeah.
Should they have to suffer forit?
No.
They should not suffer for it.
(03:27):
That's kind of my rationale.
SPEAKER_01 (03:29):
Let's say that you're in a situation where the
person's not maybe making thesame mistake, but there's been a
series of mistakes that arehappening.
And at the root of it, it feelslike there is a disconnect where
this person just does not havethe ability to come and tell you
when there is bad thingshappening.
(03:50):
Sure.
They're very...
Uh, comfortable coming to youwith good news and positive
updates, but if there'ssomething bad, they just want to
sweep that bad boy under therug.
And you see that happening overand over again.
How do you handle
SPEAKER_00 (04:02):
that situation?
Well, to me, that is 100% aperformance related issue.
That is, I mean, call it whatyou want.
Call it whatever skill you wantto put it in.
Communication, troubleshooting,mitigating, risk mitigate,
whatever you want to call it.
That is 100% a performancerelated thing.
And I think we should be clearabout mistakes that are made
(04:24):
because of negligence orperformance related.
They just don't know.
They keep, you know, theyhaven't learned their lesson
sort of thing.
And one that is honest, anyleader that is remotely
talented, remotely talented cantell the difference.
And if it's honest, then that'sone category.
And those are the ones thatpeople should be more open in
(04:47):
talking about.
And then there'sperformance-related ones that
they're hiding it from you forwhatever reason.
They can't tell you.
They don't know how to tell you.
They're too scared to tell you.
Or they just don't think it's aproblem.
I'm curious, where would youfocus?
What particular one troubles youthe most?
That's a good
SPEAKER_01 (05:05):
question.
I think for me...
If somebody is having troublecoming to me and telling me bad
news, the first thing I'm goingto do is look in the mirror and
say, is there something that Iam doing to stop or prevent this
person from feeling comfortablecoming to me?
(05:29):
A leader has a responsibility tocreate a psychologically safe
environment where people canfeel vulnerable, where they can
feel innovative, where they canfeel like they can come with new
ideas.
But part of that psychologicallysafe environment is to be able
to come and share things whenthey're not going well either,
(05:51):
right?
Yeah, so I have to kind of get alittle introspective, do a quick
audit of myself, I will feelvery much obligated to have that
conversation.
(06:21):
discussion, that open discussionand let them know that like, if
it's something I'm doing, tellme what it is that's actually
causing this issue.
And I will try to, you know, fixthe issue.
I think what troubles me more iswhen I've completed the
self-assessment and I reallycan't identify a reason why
they're doing this.
(06:41):
And then it turns into, okay,this is something that's a
little outside of my control.
What if this individual just hasa Like a deficiency or– And that
(07:16):
to me is much more difficult todeal with because I feel like I
don't know how to stop them frombeing able to do or how to
change them
SPEAKER_00 (07:23):
really.
Yeah.
I mean, look, so I know youwell.
And I mean, the fact that youlooked at yourself first or that
you would.
look at yourself first.
That is huge.
That's a skill.
That's a lot.
That is, I mean, everyone shouldlook at it that way, regardless
of how obvious it is.
Just like double, you know,check themselves.
That's number one.
So kudos to you.
(07:44):
But on the other hand, I mean,I'm assuming, uh, like if this
were me, let me put myself in,in this person's, this, this
manager's shoes, this leader'sshoes, who's working with
someone who has an inability totalk to them, uh, or
communicate, uh, I mean, thefrank conversation has to
happen.
So it's like one, hey, did youknow that you aren't able to
communicate to me before thingsgo terribly wrong and you make
(08:07):
my life harder or it actuallymakes it harder?
Your life would be easier.
Our lives would be easier.
We would be more successful ifyou came to me earlier.
Step one happens again.
Repeat the conversation.
And then maybe a little bitdeeper and the sense of like, is
there a particular reason thatyou couldn't come to me?
Was it something that I did?
(08:27):
Is it the situation?
A third time it happens.
Now we're personally– and again,let's make an assumption that
it's a material issue, right?
We're talking money is beingburned.
Relationships are being burned.
I think– A very firm, strongperformance related conversation
needs to happen.
And I'm not one to give up onpeople very, very quickly.
(08:50):
Right.
But there are certain situationswhere like ability comes into
play.
You're like, maybe this personisn't in the right place.
Maybe their role is not in theright place.
They can succeed.
Maybe they're good.
You might consider themtalented, but they may be more
trouble than it's worth in thelong run.
SPEAKER_01 (09:10):
Yeah.
And sometimes you put people inhigh stakes positions where they
have to take the brunt of theresponsibility and
accountability.
And with that comes a need to beable to come back to the
business and say, Hey, look,there is a problem.
I'm raising a red flag here andit is incumbent on me to share
this because I have a title thatrequires me to do this.
(09:33):
It's kind of my fiduciary dutyto my department.
And if I'm incapable of doingthat, then, really, that's a big
part of my job.
So I guess that when somepeople, like you said, I agree
with you that it could be thatin a lesser role or something
that's more of like anindividual contributor role
(09:54):
where they're doing somethingthat's not as high stakes, that
they might be able to besuccessful.
And I think that this issomething that is very
underrated when we look at Whenwe look at candidates for
promotions, when we look atcandidates for leadership
positions in the future orsomething that I definitely do
(10:15):
already is I vet this in aninterview process because it's
tell me about a situation whereyou screwed up.
Tell me what you did.
How did you approach thesituation?
And I look to see like, was oneof the first things they say
that they went and told theirboss.
SPEAKER_00 (10:31):
People are scared to do that.
They, it is, I mean, I think notto add humor or inject humor or
belittle the situation, but youknow, there's some childhood
trauma there in thosesituations.
And
SPEAKER_01 (10:42):
you know, it's even like taking into stuff earlier.
Like I've noticed this and thisis, I don't have empirical data
to back this up.
There may be studies on this.
I have not looked into it.
But this is my podcast, so I cantalk about whatever I want.
(11:18):
When there is a problem, theircards go down on the table and
they let you know, like, hey, wehave a problem.
I screwed up.
What should we do here?
Then on the other hand, theywill go to freaking Kalamazoo,
Michigan and back trying to finda way to fix the problem before
they actually fess up and say,I've made a mistake here.
(11:41):
And in that process, they end upreally dying.
making the situation worse in alot of situations.
Cause you know, like one of thethings that one of my mentors
told me and in a position that Ihad many, many years ago, he,
he, he always said to me, Samir,bad news does not age.
Well, bad news does not age.
(12:01):
Well, he's like, as soon as youknow something bad, Let others
around, you know, let me know,let your boss know because bad
news does not age well.
And I've learned, I learnedthose lessons early in my
career.
Now, as soon as I find out aboutsomething, I just throw it on my
boss's radar.
Even if I'm like, Hey, this isgoing on.
(12:24):
This is the 15 things I'm doingto try to fix it right now.
But I'm just letting you knowthat this is happening.
SPEAKER_00 (12:30):
You got to admit they appreciate that your
manager appreciates.
And that's why I want to knowwhen I say like, just tell me, I
want to know because...
one of them is I can help fixit.
If I, you know, obviously if Ican, I will.
The other is like, I want to letmy manager know.
And maybe their manager wantstheir manager, like let their
manager know who knows.
Right.
It makes life so much easier.
And yeah, it's like ripping thebandaid off.
(12:50):
It stings.
Right.
It does sting.
There's no question about it,but come on in the long run,
any, any, um, reasonable personhas been in a situation where
they've had to hide somethingand it just, it never ends well.
And let's say you are successfulin fixing it you probably shaved
off like two three years of yourlife was it really worth it no
SPEAKER_01 (13:14):
yeah like i mean i think you know by nature i might
be a little bit more of anavoider myself you know like i'm
kind of like a no news is goodnews sometimes you know and it's
not one of the qualities aboutmyself that i i really love you
know but obviously at work it'sa little bit different you know
um in the workplace it requiresthat sometimes you gotta you
gotta go cut you know, againstyour nature, you know, sometimes
(13:38):
it's like, yeah, at home, thisflies at work.
This doesn't, you know, but I dosee sometimes instinctually me
facing a situation and not,Right away being like, okay, I
need to raise a red flag.
Like, I think to myself, like,all right, I got a couple of
days to figure this out andthat's okay.
But like, it's funny.
I have like, you know, one ofthe females that reports to me
(14:01):
is very adamant that like, Hey,you need to throw this on your
boss's radar.
Like we should let them know.
And I'm like, you think so?
Like, okay, yeah, let's do it.
You know?
But like, it's, it's because,and even though that situation
was not even my fault, somebodyunder, you know, in my
organization's fault, I I stillfind that sometimes it's just
(14:22):
like instinctually you're like,that's not your gut reaction,
right?
Let me go tell on myself.
And that's a hard thing tobalance.
SPEAKER_00 (14:34):
Thanks for tuning into the podcast.
We hope you're enjoying theepisode so far.
If you want to stay updated onall the latest content and
behind the scenes action, besure to follow us on social
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You can find us on Instagram,LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, and
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And if it's not too muchtrouble, we'd love for you to
leave a review and share thisepisode with some of your
(14:56):
friends.
Your support means everything tous and we can't wait to connect
with you online.
Now let's get back to the show.
I do think, I mean, you know howyou're saying there's fault, but
then there's responsibility,right?
Yeah, it's not your fault.
But at the end of the day, yourteam, your organization, your
responsibility, everything is onyou.
(15:17):
And that's the way it should be.
Like your job is to take all ofthe blame and give away all of
the credit.
That is actually, that's how yousucceed at the end of the day.
Now, okay, fine.
You got to sell yourself in thesense of for promotion.
You want to talk about the goodstuff, but the way you succeed,
you know, in, in, in the biggerpicture, not by little, little
(15:37):
projects, little, little wins.
It's the big picture.
And how you do that is you justtake the brunt, you take all the
crap and you put it under yourarm and you walk around with it.
And that is your cross to bear.
And your team is there like,okay, I got my, my, and this is
why they have to come and tellyou.
So you can do that for them.
SPEAKER_01 (15:56):
Let you like, yeah, you're the stress filter.
That's why you get paid morethan they do.
Right.
Yeah.
In a lot of respects.
It's not because always you havemore technical skill experience.
It's your ability to weatherthose storms in a more
productive manner.
But it's so funny that youbrought up the cycle, like, you
know, the deep.
rooted psychological childhoodtrauma.
(16:19):
Because, man, that stuff carrieswith you, right?
I guess the reason I broughtthis conversation sort of to the
forefront is because I really dothink that in the workplace, an
important skill is the abilityto deliver bad news.
And I don't think it's talkedabout enough.
(16:40):
And I think that a lot ofleaders are struggling to Yeah.
(17:06):
And it's a lot of timesavoidable and they're doing it
to themselves because they havean inability to share that bad
news.
It's not that they don't thinkit's the right thing to
SPEAKER_00 (17:16):
do.
I guarantee if there isn't abook on it already.
You should write one or weshould write one, whatever.
But there has to be a bookspecifically on this topic, like
how to deliver bad news to yourmanager.
We can Google it.
We can Google the crap out of itand we're going to find a
thousand things.
But you are right.
I think there is a skill thatshould be put in the job
(17:38):
description, ability to deliverbad news.
because it is a skill andthey're inevitably going to
happen.
Yes.
And a couple of things.
One is you got to know when todo it, right?
We, you know, it's not just likeevery single red flag.
You're like, Oh boy, I'm goingto go tell my manager.
That's, that's a problem in anut for another reason, right?
(17:58):
You have to look at, we'retaking the assumption that the
manager takes it well, right?
And there are situations and,and I don't think we should, we
necessarily have to get intothis, but there are situations
where you're, it doesn't matterwhat you do or what you say to
your manager.
They're just that way.
And that's a place you probablyshouldn't be working anyways, or
that person shouldn't be amanager.
So we can kind of like take thatoff the table.
SPEAKER_01 (18:19):
Yeah.
If you have a super toxic bosswho really doesn't make it easy
for you to come to them with badnews, then that's a situation
where you may potentially needto try to move to a different
team or leave the company orfind something less toxic and
better for you.
But if your boss is a decentleader and is going to listen to
(18:41):
you if you come to them andyou're just not able to do it,
you need to figure that out.
You need to do thatself-assessment.
You need to figure out whyconfrontation, the fear of
conflict, why you're sweepingthings under the rug.
Why are you avoiding things?
Um, because I, you know, in thelong run, it's just, it's just
going to be tear dutch.
SPEAKER_00 (19:02):
Let me ask you a question.
Um, Well, I'll start with astatement and ask you a question
is that I know personally, I'vebeen in several situations where
I've made a mistake or a mistakeis occurring or could occur.
And I'm just so not lookingforward on bringing it up.
I just don't want to because youknow, you know, maybe it was
(19:25):
just such a mundane situation.
And you really made a mistake orit's such a huge issue.
There's nothing that could havestopped it.
Like, you know, those are twoends of the spectrum and you
really don't want to bring itup.
Um, I've gotten over that.
So my question to you is, andhow soon, what was your process?
How did you go through theprocess of being afraid?
(19:46):
Cause I think everyone is at thebeginning to being comfortable.
What happened?
I know it was one person saidsomething to you, your manager,
but anything else?
Your mentors, right?
SPEAKER_01 (19:55):
Yeah, we talked about the bad news does not age
well.
I think for me, what helps me alot is to practice those
conversations before I havethem.
So I do this all the time when Ihave to have a difficult
conversation with my boss or Ihave to go deliver a bad update
or bad news that I know is goingto really...
(20:17):
have an impact on my bossemotionally and potentially even
on the work itself, I practicethe conversation.
So I really set out how I'mgoing to say it.
This is how I'm going to delivermy message.
This is kind of the points thatI'm going to bring up right
after on the heels of thatmessage on how I'm planned to
(20:37):
come up with solutions andthings like that.
And then I envision the absoluteworst, worst reactions that my
boss can have.
And then I envision the bestreaction.
And then I try to convincemyself that it's going to be
somewhere in between those twothings.
So you're, you're willing thismiddle ground.
(20:59):
You're willing it.
Yeah.
I love it.
Because sometimes, honestly,like when you do something and
you're, and you're upset withyourself and you've really
screwed up, you kind of want toget yelled at.
Like, I don't know.
That's just me.
Like if I made a mistake, like atrue mistake, I, and I went to
my boss and I was like, listen,like, you know, there's this
(21:20):
$250,000 miss.
Like this is on my team.
You know, I dropped the ballhere.
I didn't have process in placeto catch this.
And if my boss was just like,Ah, don't worry about it.
Don't worry about it, man.
We'll, we'll get it figured out.
I'm sure by the end of the year,you know, uh, something will
come in, you'll be able tobalance it out.
We'll figure it out.
And which is probably what'sgoing to happen.
(21:42):
Right.
But if that was a reaction Igot, I would have been like, you
know, I don't know how I wouldtake that.
I've never gotten a reactionlike that.
I don't know if I would be like,okay, are you like high right
now?
Or, or would I just be like, uh,you know, like, okay, I guess
it's not a big deal.
Let's just go have another miss.
I don't know how I would react.
But sometimes, yeah, man, youjust kind of want to get reamed.
SPEAKER_00 (22:02):
You just want to get – you have these expectations.
You're just like, just come on.
Let me take my lashing so I canmove on.
Exactly.
I need closure here.
Just
SPEAKER_01 (22:11):
yell at me.
Just tell me I'm an idiot.
You're going to be fine.
SPEAKER_00 (22:16):
That's terrible.
You're right.
You're right.
I'm not sure if I have had oneof those situations.
I think I've had thosesituations where I thought– it
was a major issue and I reallybuilt it up in my head.
And it turned out that like mymanager was like, Oh yeah, I
already knew about that.
It's dealt with.
Don't worry about it.
Or yeah, this happens.
This is like really common.
Like, man, I wish I came to yousooner.
I wish I did.
(22:36):
But yeah, these are, they'rerare where it kind of is.
And those are the unexpectedones, but happy, unexpected,
SPEAKER_01 (22:43):
you know, but then there's the ability to, to share
bad news or, or deliver badnews.
That's just like the pure, like,Meaning, yeah, but then there's
also a skill related to how todeliver bad news that, you know,
I've had to work on a lot overthe years and, and, you know,
I've really taken the approachof like, you just state the raw
(23:06):
kind of don't sugarcoat, butthen right after you state it,
you better have some reallysolid reasoning as to why it
happened and what you're goingto do to make sure it never
happens again.
And I found that, you know, whenI do that, like, it usually is
like, you see the face, like,you know, you see your boss's
(23:28):
face go red and then it kind oflike calms down because they're
like, all right, if I just cameand stated it and acted
unapologetic or, you know, mytone was kind of like, yeah,
this happened, you know, whatare you going to do about it?
Like, That's different, right?
And people do that.
And it could be, again, justchildhood trauma or they just
(23:49):
never learned how to have thoseconversations.
But there are people who I'veseen in the workplace deliver
bad news as if like– It was notan issue.
It was not their fault or theyhad nothing to do with it.
This happened when 100% of thefault is on them.
I
SPEAKER_00 (24:06):
can feel rage bubbling up just inside.
It's annoying.
It's very frustrating.
You can't take ownership,accountability, responsibility I
mean, do that at the very least.
Do that.
Right.
And I mean, I think, but justgoing, taking a really quick
step back, like guys out therewill just say, you know, you
have more of a problem thanothers admitting you made a
(24:28):
mistake.
Just admit the mistake.
Just admit it.
Move on.
Right.
And for anyone out there, justadmit the mistake.
It's really, really not a bigdeal.
I mean, I will always say thingslike we're not, Uh, saving
lives, meaning, and I knowthat's kind of a cliche, but
lives are not on
SPEAKER_01 (24:46):
the line.
Yeah.
Not in the, not in the, like theline of work that most of us are
doing.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah, man.
A hundred percent.
And you know, some of the bestlessons that I've learned in,
in, in work at work over theyears have been, Yeah.
(25:20):
you know, as a fellow leader.
And I hope that our listenersgot something valuable out of
this conversation.
And, you know, we always lookforward to your guys's feedback.
Feel free to reach out to us onInstagram, LinkedIn, connect
with us and follow us.
And till next time.
Thank you, everyone.
(25:42):
We'll see you next time.
(26:12):
We'd love to hear from you.
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