May 1, 2024 • 56 mins
As a mother and social worker with a profound connection to the world of neurodiversity, Sarah's story is both a testament to personal strength and a guidebook for those navigating similar paths. She unpacks her journey from paramedic to social work, spurred by her son's autism diagnosis, and how this led her to identify and embrace her own neurodivergent traits, including PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance). Guiding us through the labyrinth of parenting twins with PDA, Sarah's candid revelations about the empowerment found in diagnosis and the advocacy needed in our communities suggest that the understanding of neurodiversity is not just a personal quest but a societal mandate.
Raising PDA Kids https://raisingpda.com Declarative Language Cheat Sheet
https://www.ourpdakids.com.au – For resources and research and service
PDA Australia and NZ http://pdaanz.com
danabaltutis.com, mytherapyhouse.com.au, https://mytherapyhouse.com.au/your-childs-therapy-journey/ https://www.danabaltutis.com/services
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dana (00:01):
Hi, Sarah.
Welcome to my podcast, theEmpowered Parent.
I'm so, so excited to have youhere, and today we are going to
talk about PDA, or PathologicalDemand Avoidance, or Extreme
Demand Avoidance, and what thatlooks and feels like for
(00:22):
children and families.
You have a Master's in SocialWork and describe yourself as
being a proud autistic womanwith a PDA profile, and you also
parent boy and girl twins, bothof whom are awesome, awesome
autistic PDAers and reallyhighly intelligent and fantastic
(00:44):
kids.
You help many parents andfamilies who are either PDAers
themselves or live with someonewho is a PDAer.
You run a successful businesscalled Our PDA Kids and have
clients in Adelaide andinterstate.
The link to your website willbe on the comments of our
podcast.
(01:04):
Excellent, okay, I invited youhere today because I feel it's
so important for empoweredparents like yourself because I
definitely see you as anempowered parent to share their
stories with other parents,especially those who may be just
starting their journey ofraising a neurodivergent child
or two, or those who are reallystruggling in this domain.
(01:27):
Sarah, could you please startby telling our listeners a
little bit about yourself inyour own words, about your own
story as a neurodivergent womanand mother, and how do you do it
all?
Sarah (01:43):
Thanks, Dana, for having me here today.
So yeah, hi everybody.
So I'm Sarah and I guess myjourney is both similar and
different to others.
So I started out as a paramedicin New South Wales.
I have a very strong medicalbackground and I was really
lucky that in 2018, when wemoved our family to South
Australia which then my twinswere three I had the opportunity
(02:06):
to keep studying in paramedicsor go and try something new, and
I'm all about the lifelonglearning.
So I went back to uni and gotmy Master's in social work,
which is this is really great.
I came from a trauma space andwas really interested in
domestic violence, sexualassault as my history with
paramedics, and then thought,yeah, let's do that.
Then life happened and mylittle boy started demonstrating
(02:29):
behaviors that I didn'tunderstand, and we go down that
pathway, which many of you willunderstand very well, and he
gets an autism diagnosis.
As someone who used to work inthe autistic space in my 20s, I
agreed with the diagnosis, butsomething wasn't quite right.
So, like many of you willunderstand, you keep looking,
you keep looking, you keeplooking and eventually I got
(02:49):
that beautiful light bulb momentwhere I found PDA.
I'm still studying at thispoint and I finished my study.
But my son has gone into burnoutwhich we'll cover a bit later
and he stops going to school andI start becoming a
homeschooling parent.
So I now in my brain is tellingme I've just studied for two
years for no reason, becausewhat I'm hoping to achieve in my
(03:11):
professional life given I'mquite driven in my professional
world is not going to happenanymore.
And some months pass and hecomes out of burnout and I think
I know what I'll do.
I'll just start a business thathelps other PDA parents and
maybe I can help two or threefamilies while I help my son,
and that's a really good ideafor me and I build a business
and think this is going to begreat.
(03:31):
And 12 months later I have over200 families and speak
internationally sorry and haveclients all over Australia and
provide professional development, and I think that's wonderful.
Through the process I getmyself diagnosed, my daughter is
diagnosed and now we live in abeautiful neurodivergent family
(03:53):
where we can support each otherand understand each other.
And I think it's brilliant andI'm so proud that I got to start
the business but that I gotmyself diagnosed and that I
really embraced what that lookedlike and how much better it
made my life, to understandmyself better and why did you
get yourself diagnosed?
Dana (04:10):
What were some of the I guess, the flags that you're
going?
Sarah (04:15):
hey, this isn't right for me, it's a funny story actually
and the person will knowthemselves when I say this is I
was actually bailed up in one ofmy client sessions by a parent
who asked me flat out fiveminutes into the session when I
found out I was neurodivergent,to which I answered I'm not, I'm
not neurodivergent.
And she hassled me for thewhole 55 minutes of that session
(04:38):
until I got back in my car andI was like what just happened?
And I rang my husband at thetime and said look, this just
happened.
And he was like what justhappened?
And I rang my husband at thetime and said look, this just
happened.
And he was like, oh, likethere's probably something in
that.
And I was like don't beridiculous.
And hung up from him and rangmy best friend and said, look,
this has happened.
And she said, oh, you mightwant to think about that.
And I was like don't beridiculous.
(04:59):
And I rang my girlfriend, whois neurodivergent, and told her
and she said yes, sarah, I wasjust waiting for you to get
there yourself.
So I started thinking about itand, as the beautiful PDA brain
that I have, within 24 hours Iwas completely convinced that I
was autistic ADHD and I bookedmyself in for assessments.
Whilst I completely validatethose who do self-assessment and
(05:21):
self-diagnose for autism, Ivery much am the sort of person
who wanted the intellectualconversation with a woman that I
respected and really wanted toengage that process.
And I found that woman and hada lovely experience with her, a
two to three hour conversationand I was so empowered within
that time and also learned thatI had PDA in that moment, which
(05:41):
was embarrassing given I'm a PDAprofessional.
But obviously it just showed mehow different it can present in
everybody, especially in adults, and I really loved being
diagnosed and definitelyencourage other women which I
come across a lot in my work tobe diagnosed and to understand
themselves better, which in turnobviously helps you understand
your children.
That's great.
Dana (06:03):
And so people listening might say yeah, but how do you
know?
Like, how do you know that youknow?
How do people know that youhave PDA, or that yourself I?
Sarah (06:14):
myself would have.
So I guess, there's a and Iguess I'm lucky that I have
studied social work, which is alot about reflective practice,
so I'm able to reflect on thingsfrom my childhood and my
teenage years and my twentiesabout times.
So PDA obviously is all aboutthe need for the person to have
overwhelming choice and control.
So when I think about the fewtimes in my life that I have
(06:37):
truly struggled, it is when I'velost that control, and that
would be my parents' separation.
I really struggled a lot morethan I should have given.
I was 19 at the time.
I really struggled that myparents separated and I couldn't
control what was happening next.
And then I actually wentthrough IVF to have my beautiful
twins.
So in that time I struggled alot more than other people
(07:00):
around me because I lost controlof the process.
It wasn't the fact that Icouldn't have children, it's
that I couldn't control how Ihad children.
So I think there were somereally big reflective moments
and then, as I was able to speakto the person who assessed me
about the day-to-day decisionsthat I've made, about why did I
want to run my own business asopposed to working for somebody
else, that's because I likebeing in charge.
(07:20):
I like being in control.
I, I like being in charge.
I like being in control.
I get to control my whole beingnow and as a PDA, this suits me
perfectly and you can look backacross your life at making
decisions and how you parent,your parenting decisions that
tell you, you have PDA Amazing,so let's go straight into it.
Dana (07:41):
What is PDA?
Sarah (07:43):
So PDA is a nervous system disability which is
highly invisible.
That is the child or theadult's body telling them they
need an overwhelming sense ofchoice and control.
So it is a cumulative disorder,as in you don't see a
precursing event and then a bigmeltdown and then the after
(08:04):
effect, like you might intraditional autism't see a
precursing event and then a bigmeltdown and then the after
effect, like you might intraditional autism.
You see an accumulation ofmicrotraumas, let's call them
that happen across a day beforewe get to that meltdown point.
So PDA is a profile of autism,just like those would know
Asperger's is a profile ofautism.
Pda is the same concept thatit's a profile under the autism
(08:24):
spectrum.
So it's part of theneurodivergent world and I guess
it looks differently foreverybody, which I love, because
we really need to get away fromthis point where autism looks
the same for everybody.
It presents differently in ourboys and our girls and across
all people and I love thatbecause because it's unique.
Dana (08:43):
So people, you know we see a lot of children that come
here and you know they're not.
They haven't got the classicautism symptoms, but they're
really struggling in the world.
They're finding it really hardbecause they're losing control.
So we go down the path of let'shave a look at PDA.
(09:06):
Like you say, it is a spectrum.
Where can people get thediagnosis?
Like is it in the DSM-5?
Sarah (09:16):
or yeah, so obviously autism.
Those who've been in theautistic world for a while will
know it's extremely challengingwhen your child doesn't present
like the classic DSM-5guidelines.
So for those who aren't aware,dsm-5 is the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual, where it'san international guide that has
all disabilities and mentalhealth listed and this is how
(09:36):
psychiatrists, psychologists,pediatricians can diagnose
children or adults with anydisorder.
Now, that language is notneuroaffirming, but that's what
we're sitting in the medicalspace.
That is how it's discussed.
So autism sits within thatguideline.
So you can be diagnosed autistic, but you cannot be diagnosed
with PDA because it does notappear in the DSM-5.
(09:57):
However, as we've discussed,pda is a profile of autism.
So if you go to a PDA-affirmingpsychologist which I have a
beautiful referral list then youcan go and have someone who
understands PDA enough that theywill be able to say, yes, your
child is autistic based on thisand I can see they have PDA and
you will have it written intoyour assessment document.
(10:19):
So when you give that to NDISit will be clear that your child
is autistic, you qualify forNDIS if you get a level two
diagnosis of autism, but thatyour child has a PDA profile.
Dana (10:31):
And what about schooling?
Like, are there are schoolscoming more on board around PDA
or is it more like a behavioralapproach?
Sarah (10:40):
I have had both experiences.
So schooling is by far thenumber one issue our children
face because we're in a societythat hasn't changed in the
schooling space in a long time.
So schools are very much aboutthe educational need of all
children in sitting within thatstudent cohort.
And for our kids, whilst theyare beautiful learners, they, as
(11:02):
we know, need choice andcontrol.
So they need to have choice andcontrol how they learn.
And this can be very difficultin schools.
There are some schools who havego above and beyond to meet the
needs of individual childrenwithin their student cohort,
regardless if they have PDA ornot, and this is wonderful and I
can absolutely work with thoseschools because they have the
(11:23):
right positive culture tosupport individual students.
And that's all we need.
We need open-mindedness and theunderstanding that flexible
accommodations can be made tomeet the needs of individual
students and this helps studentsastronomically and it's
wonderful.
There are definitely schools Ihave tried to support who are
not willing to do that or don'thave the resourcing to do that
(11:46):
or are more in the old schoolstyle and which drives children
out of school a lot of this timeit isn't the school
specifically, but it's asocietal understanding that
children should be in school.
Well, that's actually not theonly thing, how we learn.
So I do speak with a lot offamilies about and, whilst I am
a huge advocate for theeducation system, not to
(12:06):
homeschool, people can choosetheir own pathway.
I think it can be difficultwhen students want to go to
school but the school can'tsupport their needs, but that
there are actually other ways wecan teach our children, and I
think that's definitely been ajourney I've been on, having
homeschooled my own son for 12months, when he chose that
pathway for himself, and it'snot something I wanted to do.
(12:30):
So, for those parents who wantto, congratulations to you, but
I definitely was not one of you.
I was forced into it from thesituation he was going through
in his PDA burnout, and it is areally difficult space when you
start, but I haven't.
That's the number one thingthat I've learned the most about
from supporting him in thatspace is how to homeschool and
how to meet how to truly meethis needs in the moment.
Dana (12:50):
How do you homeschool Like are there lots of resources for
parents, Because to me thatsounds pretty scary.
Sarah (12:59):
It is extremely scary when you start, extremely scary
when you start and I guessthere's another arm of my
business now that reallysupports PDA families who are
going to homeschool about onehow to logistically achieve it,
how to complete paperwork toachieve it, and then actually
what does it look like.
So there is an abundance ofresources about homeschooling.
It was like a completelyuntapped area of my life.
(13:20):
I was very lucky that I have afriend in Queensland who has
homeschooled her children fromthe beginning, so she was a
great resource for me, just tobe a calming influence and be
like it's okay, this is notgoing to break you.
And I guess for the PDA space,which is where a lot of families
go wrong is people try to takethe curriculum they would in a
schooling setting and they tryand encourage their child to do
(13:41):
it at home.
Now that is the traditionalhomeschooling model and all of
us who live through COVIDunderstand that model and it was
really traumatizing for a lotof us, especially for those
clients I have in Victoria.
But what I see most successfulwith PDAs would be called the
unschooling modality, where youtake the learnings of everyday
life and you encourage yourchild naturally through your
(14:03):
natural, day-to-day and that'show they learn.
So, for example, I would go foodshopping and my son would come
with me when he felt he couldand he would ask if he could run
around and pick out items forhimself and I'd say, that's a
great idea, but while you'redoing that, like mummy's only
got a certain amount of money,so can you please tell me how
much they cost and add them up.
And because he's such mathsmart kid, he would pick items
(14:24):
that he wanted and he would addthem up.
So he would be doing math inthe moment.
Then he would scan items withme, so I was teaching some life
skills.
Then we would talk to people inthe shop when he felt
comfortable and we'd be doingsome English work.
So there is natural learningthat happens all the time.
I live near the beach, so wewould go to the beach and he
(14:49):
would start a conversation abouthow we would throw the ball
together and I would talk aboutphysics.
Then we would talk about sanderosion when we're in the ocean
and rips.
So you can cover geography andscience and you follow the
child's lead.
For example, my son at themoment is teaching himself the
flags of the world, so he isteaching himself geography
whenever he wants to, how hewants to, and this is how his
PDA presents.
Because he is in control of hisown learning and he can thrive.
Dana (15:09):
So that's really.
That is so interesting, Sarah,and I noticed that you use sort
of non-declarative language withyour son.
Is that right?
Like you're not sort of givinghim direction.
Sarah (15:21):
Correct.
So non-declarative language isone strategy in the PDA space
that you can use and it's aboutgiving information sort of.
I talk about it as in givinginformation into the ether in
third person.
So when I want him to dosomething that I know is in his
best interest for example, go tothe beach, where we need to
wear sun cream and a hat I mightsay to him oh it's so hot today
(15:43):
, mate, like I need to go findmy hat, which is telling him
maybe he needs to look for hishat, opposed to saying can you
please run upstairs and get yourhat, which is a direct demand,
which, in the PDA space, thedemand is the thing that our
nervous system is not copingwith.
So that makes it hard for him togo and get his hat, opposed to
me giving him choice to get hishat.
And declarative language isdifficult when parents first
(16:05):
learn about it, because it'sit's asking adults to change how
they speak when they're veryused to being a certain way.
And I think this is the mostchallenging thing in my work is
it's not about changing yourchild, it's about changing us as
parents, about how we engagewith our children and as
neurodivergent parents, this canbe quite difficult because it's
hard for us to change and forthose of us that have PDA, we
(16:28):
have our own triggers of whatthat looks like.
Dana (16:31):
So I think it can be a very interesting space,
difficult at times, but forthose who are ready to hear the
information and take a differentapproach, it can be amazing
amazing and I know that we'veworked a lot with families
around declarative language bymodelling as well, as there are
speech pathologists in the USthat have got webinars and then
(16:53):
we've got also books aboutdeclarative language.
So there are resources and Imight actually add those as well
, so that would be really goodfor all people that are
interested in the PDA space.
Sarah (17:04):
Absolutely, and there's also a Queensland specialist
named Kate Clenow who has anorganisation called Raising PDA
Children.
If you look on her website,there is a sheet you can
download for like a cheat sheeton declarative language.
Kate is amazing.
She runs a beautiful 10-weekcourse in PDA space, but she has
an excellent resource fordeclarative language as well, so
(17:26):
let's put that on the commentsas well.
Dana (17:29):
Sarah commands what are they demands?
I know people have said theycould be external, they can be
internal.
What does a day look like for achild that has PDA or an adult
that has PDA?
Sarah (17:42):
Yep.
So demands are the everydaytasks that we give our children,
that they perceive whether thatbe a real or perceived demand
and that makes their nervoussystem escalate.
So it can be anything, becauseit's how the nervous system of
the individual reacts.
So if your child wakes up andyou go into their room and say,
good morning, let's headdownstairs and have breakfast,
(18:02):
that child could perceive thatthat's a demand because they
didn't choose to have breakfast.
You've told them they have tohave breakfast.
Therefore you have given them adirect demand.
I guess there's three main typesof demands.
So direct demand is when youdirectly give an instruction to
somebody, and indirect demandcan be things like our internal
bodily functions, timeexpectation, praise, and these
(18:24):
sort of things can be, like Isaid, real or perceived demands
for the child, such as theexpectation that because they
achieved something on a Tuesday,they'll be able to back that up
and do the exact same thing ona Wednesday, or that when you
praise a PDA child, what theyhear can be now I have to do it
again tomorrow, but I can't doit tomorrow, and now the demand
is the thing that increasestheir anxiety and therefore they
(18:46):
can't move.
So the other one would bedemands within demands, which
can be difficult to understandinitially.
But it's like that beachexample I gave, where you say to
the kids, like it's so hot,let's go to the beach today, and
they start to escalate anddon't want to go.
But you know that your childrenlove the beach.
So it's about for my kids, it'sabout the knowledge that when I
(19:07):
say let's go to the beach, allthey think about is mum's going
to make us put sun cream on wehate putting sun cream on then
she's going to stop us going outfar in the ocean and when we
get home she's going to make uswash our hair.
And those things are demandswithin demands within demands,
and they stop them with thosequestions.
So it's about having childrenwho are emotionally regulated to
work through that stuff so theyunderstand what the expectation
(19:27):
is.
Dana (19:27):
Yes, but also that I take my hands off the wheel and let
them control, within theboundaries of safety, what they
can and can't achieve and I'dsay even a good morning could be
a demand, because then that islike that triggers off a whole
sequence of things they need todo right, that's exactly right.
Sarah (19:44):
So the morning ones would be about going downstairs and
having breakfast.
But the toast is on the wrongside of the toast this morning,
mummy, and it's not buttered theway I like, and why is it in
squares, not triangles?
And then I don't want to wearthose clothes to school and then
I don't have to go to school.
It's thursday.
I don't want to go on athursday because library's on
thursday, and then I don't haveto go to school.
It's Thursday.
I don't want to go on aThursday because library's on
Thursday, and then it's theseatbelt feels wrong, and then
it's I'm on the wrong side ofthe car and the demands are
(20:05):
ongoing and, like I said,cumulative, and these lead
towards an emotionallydysregulated child who's going
to hit that trauma response.
So one of the main learnings Itry and help parents understand
with PDA is try not to thinkautism.
Try not to think autism.
When you keep thinking autismin the PDA space, you'll go down
the routine structure pathwayof traditional autistic
strategies and traits.
We really want to move awayfrom that.
(20:26):
And whilst PDA is a profile ofautism, we want to think about
control and choice and this sitsin the trauma space that when
kids become too dysregulated.
Think of PDA like a traumaresponse.
Like if someone for an adulthad someone break into their
house with a gun, you are goingto do something in that straight
.
You're either going to fightthe person, you're either going
(20:46):
to run away, you're going tofreeze.
These are trauma responses thatadults have.
Our children are having thosemoments when they become
emotionally dysregulated by thedemands of everyday life.
Dana (20:56):
And what happens to the nervous system, the neurobiology
, when the child is traumatizedor when someone is traumatized?
Sarah (21:04):
yep, so I guess um this, like I say, neurobiology.
So the rationality you have inyour brain that tells you how to
calmly work through yourproblems is switched off, and
when you go into a trauma spaceit's all emotional, which is why
, for um I hate this word butbehaviors of concern and
challenging behaviors we talkabout in the schooling space or
in the medical space, which isnot neuroaffirming language at
(21:26):
all but, that's how it'sdescribed.
Those sort of things can occur.
So our kids can really strugglewith their behaviour, which is
actually just their nervoussystem trying to demonstrate how
they feel in their brain.
So a child who is hitting or isrunning away from an adult,
this is a child saying I can'tcope, please back off.
You are making me feel unsafe.
And PDA is all about a spacewhere the child is having that
(21:50):
trauma response.
So they're having feelings ofsignificant unsafety and we need
to make sure they can feel safein their nervous system.
So this relational safety webuild with our children, whether
we be parents or professionalsor teachers, this is the
importance that keep the childin a space where they can
emotionally regulate in ourpresence, and I love that trauma
(22:10):
response.
Dana (22:11):
That's more neurodivergent friendly language.
What other neurodivergentfriendly language could parents
use instead of like challengingbehaviors?
Or he's violent, or he'smanipulative, or he doesn't
listen, you know what else couldparents be saying?
How could they reframe theirchild's behaviors for themselves
(22:32):
?
Because I really believe thatlanguage is important.
Sarah (22:35):
Yes, absolutely, and I think I always try and encourage
parents to meet the needs oftheir child in the moment.
And the language like you say,it's so important and people
think it's insignificant.
It's not because it's alsoabout how we model that language
to our kids.
So I try and give the childrendefinitely my own children,
encourage others to give themthe language that we use with
(22:55):
them.
So I talk about like what isyour choice?
Or like I see and make surewe're acknowledging and
validating how they're feeling,not labeling their feelings for
them.
So I talk about like what isyour choice?
Or like I see and make surewe're acknowledging and
validating how they're feeling,not labeling their feelings for
them.
So language around choice,control and safety.
And what do you need so thatthey're having to model back to
me and saying I feel unsafe andI'm like, okay, what can we do
about that?
But I need them to have thelanguage.
(23:16):
I need the kids to have thelanguage to know what to say,
opposed to punching me orrunning away from me.
I need my children to be ableto come to me and say I'm
unhappy about this or I feelunsafe because you did this and
that's fantastic and that'salways celebrated when they can
articulate what's going on.
And people can only articulatehow they feel when they are not
(23:36):
in that trauma space.
So when we have kids who arehaving these trauma responses,
they haven't got the capacity inthose moments to articulate
what they feel, because in atrauma response, like I said,
the rationality is switched off.
It's all emotional.
Their actions are their wordsand we have to view them as that
it's like a panic attack almostyeah.
So it's an anxiety drivendisorder.
So it's all about the anxietythey feel, which can be be
(23:59):
crippling, and it's terrible towatch children go through this,
especially when we have theskills to change it for them.
It's the systems around society, whether it be education system
, health system, how societyruns as an as a system, that
blocks this for our children,and we really need to work hard
to encourage parents to see itfrom a different point of view
and and what about medication?
Dana (24:22):
Do parents go down that path or what's going on in that
with medication in the PDA space?
Sarah (24:28):
Yeah, absolutely so.
It's definitely something thatis discussed in accordance with
a PDA affirming pediatrician,and medication is absolutely one
avenue that parents can go down, which most likely looks like
an anti-anxiety.
But it's really importantparents understand that
medication alone is not going tofix your child.
(24:49):
It is not about fixing anything.
We fully celebrate theneurodivergence within our
children.
I need parents to see therealities of this wonderful
situation and embrace it and youwill have a much happier child
and a much happier family life.
And there's a lot ofenvironmental work that needs to
happen first before we just jammedication into our kids and
think it's going to fix anything.
But yes, I think bothenvironmental factors and
(25:10):
medication can work hand in handbeautifully and my
pediatricians will tell you thesame.
They will not medicate yourchild without the environmental
factors being looked at forother reasons why things are
going on and our parenting styleand our change, like I said,
about how we're viewed insociety.
That's the stuff that needs tochange before we put medication
in our kids.
(25:31):
But yes, there has been a lotof success with things like
floxetine as one medication thatI know a lot of PDA families
utilize, and that's wonderful,also remembering that a lot of
autistic children have ADHD.
So they say the stats are about50%.
I'd say that's probably morelike 100%.
I agree.
So most kids or some kids Ishould say not most will be
(25:55):
medicated for ADHD as well.
So then you need to work with apaediatrician to see how to
cross-medicate for multiplediagnoses.
Dana (26:03):
And I just find it really interesting about when we're
talking about parents and PDAkids and parents possibly having
PDA, and I think I may have metclients who where the parents
have PDA but don't know thatbecause they really want to
control and they want to controltheir child and then it becomes
(26:23):
like a family control issuebecause the child is
uncontrollable.
The parent wants to control thechild the way they want to
control the child.
Have you had family systemslike that?
Sarah (26:34):
Yes, so that's my whole bread and butter and I guess I
came from a family like that.
I was that parent, I was atraditional parent.
I had kids who were extremelycompliant and I had twins.
So obviously, you know, I wastold initially, put them on the
same schedule, put them on thesame routine, that's how you
survive the twin world.
And I was like that makescomplete sense to me and I did
it and my ex husband and I weresuccessful in that and we had a
(26:55):
beautiful couple of first coupleof years with our twins where
everything was flowingbeautifully until things started
to shift and he shifted a lotquicker than I did in his
calmness.
I wanted to be more controlling,because that's who I was more
naturally, and it took a bit oftime to understand what we
needed to provide for ourchildren to meet their needs.
And then, now that we know howto do that because we actually
found some research andeducation and we found people
(27:16):
like myself to help us then weknew what we were doing.
But absolutely, I come acrosslots of parents knowing that
autism is genetic and PDA is aprofile of autism.
There is a lot of parents Imeet with who they have
undiagnosed autism orundiagnosed autism, pda or ADHD,
let's say and I am happy tohave those conversations when I
(27:37):
feel it's appropriate withparents, and I don't think
there's anything wrong with thatPeople often ask me you know,
should I tell the parent I thinkthey're autistic?
And the answer is always yes,because we shouldn't be scared
or shamed that we areneurodivergent.
We should celebrate that andpeople will often not be able to
see the link between why theyare that controlling parent and
(28:01):
when you point it out to them,people I have had, most people
be very happy to hear thisinformation.
Then I can support people inthat journey and talk about my
journey with them, and thatlived experience is why the
business is successfulAbsolutely Because I have myself
as a neurodivergent woman andall the staff I hire are
neurodivergent withneurodivergent children, so that
they understand exactly what'sgoing on, opposed to people who
don't.
Dana (28:20):
No, and what about?
So what if the parent is stillnot there?
Doesn't really hasn't got thatreflective capacity to reflect
on their neurodivergency.
Sarah (28:36):
Yep.
So that's okay and everyone'son their own journey and that's
going to be validated too.
So it's not my job to pushanybody into that diagnosis and
it's encouraging.
So I would say this is what I.
If they ask me, I'll say what Ithink and I can refer them to
an appropriately PDA affirmingor neuro affirming specialist to
get that diagnosis.
We can talk about selfdiagnosis, which some people are
more than happy to do, but myexperience has actually shown me
(28:56):
that people actually are morewilling to talk about it,
because if they're on thejourney with their children and
I tell them that autism isgenetic, then they can make the
links themselves and it startsto make people reflect on they
think that their parents may beneurodivergent and their
grandparents are neurodivergent,yes.
And then the shame is gone.
People are scared because ofwhat autism looked like.
You know 50 years ago, when wesaw you know little boys in the
(29:19):
corner males only you knoweating glue lining ago, when we
saw you know little boys in thecorner males only you know
eating glue lining up trucks,and people thought you couldn't
have a life.
Now we know so much more.
We know that neurodivergencecan be celebrated.
Some of the smartest people inthe world all neurodivergent,
yes.
And then people are always verysurprised when I tell them that
I have autism, pda, and peoplesay but you're so high
functioning.
(29:39):
Then I talk about the term highfunctioning with them and which
I don't like that term eitherUm, because it's not about me
being high functioning.
It's a spectrum for a reasonthat at any given day I can be
high on that spectrum or low onthat spectrum and we don't want
to differentiate.
We are all neurodivergent ifyou're sitting in that space and
that should be celebrated.
People shouldn't be scared ofthat.
(29:59):
But I understand why they are,because there is a lot of shame
and guilt around it still, butwe're trying to change that.
Dana (30:05):
And what about different cultures?
Have you worked with familiesfrom different cultural
backgrounds?
Sarah (30:10):
I have.
So I've got some beautifulFirst Nations families which I
love supporting, especially inthe social work space, because
obviously it's complicated andalso obviously culturally.
I've got some beautiful MiddleEastern families now, which is
lovely.
And to work in a space wheretraditionally these things were
not celebrated and are still notso, yes, it can be challenging,
(30:32):
but we have support teams for areason that understand this.
And even just yesterday I had abeautiful Afghani family that I
worked with and they were sohappy to hear the information
they were very honest that thisinformation would not be
celebrated across some of theirfamily, but one step at a time.
So I need the parents tounderstand what the information
is to support their son and thenhow we go forward from that
(30:53):
point.
So that's what social work is.
So I'm more than happy toengage that space with them, and
it's lovely to be able tosupport people from varied
cultures, and I love supportingour First Nations families
because people want theinformation, regardless of their
culture.
This is information that, sadly, is really hard to come by, so
it's really lovely to be able toprovide it.
Dana (31:14):
How many PDA affirming GPs , pediatricians, are there in
South Australia, australia?
Is it a handful?
Is it a bucket full?
Sarah (31:27):
Where are we at with that .
So the PDA Australia has asection on their website that
has a list of everybody wholists themselves as PDA
affirming.
So that's PDA Australia, pdaAustralia.
So Australia and New Zealand,sorry.
Okay, now that list means youcan add yourself to that list
without anyone verifyinganything.
And sadly, some people who I'vegiven that list to have said I
(31:50):
rang that person, they didn'thave a clue what they were
talking about.
So now when I refer people, Ihave already done the background
work for you that knows otherfamilies have seen the person
specifically and give me exactdetails.
Or I ring the professional tomake sure they know enough about
PDA in this space that I wouldrefer a family to them in South
Australia that looks like twopediatrician organizations,
(32:12):
which is sad.
One of them is a very largeorganization, which is great,
but I refer so many families tothem I think they're getting
overwhelmed.
Um, but gps, it's very hit andmiss um, sadly um, because it's
just not something that'seducated on.
So it's such a new space.
Obviously this only was firstdocumented in 2003 in the uk.
Um, even though the concept wasum, she came up with it in 1983
(32:35):
and that's dr elizabeth newson.
She only wrote about it in 2003.
That was only 20 years ago, sowe need to remember that
autism's been around for over100 years.
We can't expect PDA to spread,but people should be excited
because it is spreading likeabsolute wildfire the
information.
So we are getting more PDAaffirming allied health
professionals and medicalprofessionals.
I'm more interested in havingOT speeches and psychs across
(32:58):
this information, which is whywe also do a lot of professional
development in that space andalso I'm hoping that more and
more schools start to embracePDA and understand that it's not
a behaviour Does that makesense Absolutely and I do a lot
of school training, whether itbe advocacy with the family in
(33:21):
the schooling space, and thatcan be charged either from the
schooling perspective or throughthe child's NDIS plan if it's
child specific.
So I am fortunate to do a lot ofschool training for individual
teachers and for largestteaching cohorts.
I've also done some work withthe if you're from South
Australia, the autism inclusionteachers, the leadership team of
(33:42):
that group.
I did some PDA presenting tothem and I've also later in the
year presenting to theAustralian Teachers Aid
Association.
I'm doing some webinars for them.
That's great, which iswonderful.
Just to spread that informationas quick as we can, because
obviously the micro work you doone-on-one with families is
brilliant and I wouldn't give itup for anything, because
obviously the micro work you doone-on-one with families is
brilliant and I wouldn't give itup for anything.
(34:02):
However, the macro work we cando at a larger scale to spread
the information is what we need.
We need literature about PDA inAustralia, which we don't have,
which is also why I'm startinga PhD in the PDA space.
But also that macro work topresent to larger cohorts to
make sure the information isvaried, not just through one
organisation.
Dana (34:20):
larger cohorts to make sure the information is varied,
not just through oneorganization.
So let's just talk about thename PDA pathological demand
avoidance.
Why pathological?
What's with?
Sarah (34:30):
that word?
Yeah, so it was coined by DrElizabeth Newsom, like I said,
in the UK.
She wrote about it in 2003.
She was a clinical psychologist, so it's not surprising it's
named that because it's amedicalised term.
A lot of people have troublewith the term pathological
because it's medicalised, and Iunderstand that completely,
which is why in America it'smore referred to as extreme
(34:51):
demand avoidance.
I don't like that one either,because extreme indicates that's
where all the whole PDAcommunity sits, and that's not
true.
So persistent drive forautonomy is what a lot of people
in the PDA community like torefer it to, or I like to refer
to it as pretty darn awesome.
Dana (35:07):
Great, I love that Pretty darn awesome.
I love that.
That's what we're going torefer it to.
So you are very empowered,sarah.
How did you become like who youare?
You know?
You said that you, you know youhad your twins.
You studied social work.
Like what made you think, okay,I am, I'm Sarah and I'm pretty
(35:33):
darn awesome.
Sarah (35:34):
I guess I am very driven by learning, like I said earlier
, so I always want to know whatI don't know, and this has done
my life wonders, because beingdiagnosed with something I
didn't know, so now I knowplenty.
And helping families, whetherit be as a paramedic or now as a
social worker, I get to learnmore and more each day from
people, and learning from peoplein how they live and what
(35:57):
they've experienced is how youlearn.
Whilst I adore studying that'sa piece of paper in a book live,
and what they've experienced ishow you learn.
Whilst I adore studying.
That's a piece of paper in abook telling me what something
is and my reflection on it.
I love being able to learn frompeople in communities and that
lived experience is so importantto me.
So I guess I'm empowered bythose around me who are trying.
I don't need people to come tome with all the answers.
(36:17):
I need people to want to beopen-minded, to learn something,
and that's all.
You need to be empowered.
So I think I definitely am theperson who understands that you
can't empower somebody else.
You can only walk next to themand they will become empowered.
They are ready for that journeyand I think I've had to learn
that for myself and because ofthat learning I'm now able to
(36:39):
share that with other people.
Dana (36:40):
I've had to learn that for myself and because of that
learning, I'm now able to sharethat with other people.
And what about mental healthfor yourself?
Physical health for yourself?
What do you do in that space?
Sarah (36:48):
Yeah.
So I guess the work-lifebalance is definitely something
I've never been able to achieve.
I'm very aware that I don'thave it, and I do talk to a lot
of parents about that, becauseall of us who are parents know
parenting is reallychallenging's one.
It's the hardest job, by anabsolute mile, that you'll ever
do.
Um, is parenting neurodivergentchildren more difficult?
I would say no, there arechallenges of all parenting, but
(37:08):
it's not the parenting of theneurodivergent children that's
difficult.
It's the lack of informationand support that is difficult.
And once you've got that andyou're on the right path, then
then it's just difficult, likeall the other parents who are
exhausted out there.
So what path do I take?
I love sport, so when I can, Itry and be fit.
So I go to the gym with mypartner and I will exercise and
(37:31):
I will walk and I will go to thebeach, and I love being
outdoors, mental health-wise, Ithink, whilst a lot of people
say you need a break from work,work is really empowering for me
.
So I love working, but I knowwhen I've reached my limit and
it can be difficult starting abusiness where the business is
built around what's in my brain.
So I have to find ways to helpother people learn that
(37:52):
information so I can help asmany people as I can.
But, yeah, it is important totake breaks and to have time off
, but spending time with thekids and holidaying and doing
things that you can do in thatmental health space is really
important.
And it's naive of professionalsto say to parents to make sure
you have self-care and take careof yourself, without any
(38:12):
context around what that lookslike, especially for those of us
who had children in burnout orwho are facing challenging times
.
So there are times when Ididn't leave my house for six
months because my son couldn'tleave the house and he wouldn't
leave me, and yes, it'schallenging.
And did I have self-care then?
No, I didn't, but I also hadthe realistic notion that it
(38:32):
doesn't last forever and that Ineeded to give him what he
needed in that moment.
So we need to make sure, whenwe're talking about self-care,
that we know that, yes, it canlook different for everybody,
but that we don't set too highan expectation on what we can
achieve based on what our kidsare going through.
Dana (38:46):
And I think that self-care if you ask, you know in the
home and your child's goingthrough burnout, then it might
be just three breaths.
Sarah (38:56):
Yes, and I used to run up and down the stairs, I used to
feed him and and sit next to him.
So when he asked for food orwhen I would get him food every
hour to make sure he was stillgrowing, then I would run up and
down the stairs and in my houseand I would try.
I didn't really have muchcapacity to talk to people
outside of the family at thattime because it was so stressful
for me, Um, but you know, amorning shower, I could wash my
(39:18):
hair and I think, oh, thankgoodness, I have clean hair
today.
Dana (39:20):
That's huge.
And I think it's about beingmindful that you are doing it
for yourself.
It's not about when you haveyour shower.
If you can, if nobody's callingyour name out, you know through
the house if you have a shower,be in the moment.
If you're washing your hair,say, wow, nine days I've washed
my hair, that's great.
Sarah (39:40):
Right, absolutely, absolutely.
Couldn't agree more.
And as a PDA, I think I reallystruggled because I was
undiagnosed that time tounderstand that I was losing
control.
The reason I struggled wasbecause I was losing control of
a situation that I didn'tunderstand why I was losing that
control.
But it was about those smallwins, about having the capacity,
the emotional capacity, to stepforward in a part of the day
(40:01):
and be like I've got this.
I'm going to walk around thebackyard or I'm going to, you
know, do some gardening, or I'mgoing to cook a new meal tonight
for the family or pick up mydaughter.
Dana (40:09):
Or just do nothing on the couch.
Just do nothing, if that'spossible.
My brain is not allowing me todo nothing.
My brain is always moving.
Sarah (40:16):
But you know, when I could study, I would study, but
being kind to yourself, I thinkthat was what I learnt more in
that time that I lost theability a lot to study and to
work and to do much else,because my emotional capacity
tanked, because I ended up in aburnout space, a trauma space,
just like my son did.
And that's okay and you know, Ididn't understand at the time.
It was very difficult but onreflection on it I know why.
(40:46):
I was there, based on myundiagnosis, based on what was
going on for him, and what Ineeded in that time was to be
kind to myself, not continue topush myself when I didn't have
the capacity.
Dana (40:50):
So talk to me a little bit .
You said you did mention theburnout earlier on and you said
you're going to talk about itlater.
What you know what led to that?
How did you come out of it,both of you?
Sarah (41:02):
So PDA burnout is when a child hits that trauma state and
can't get out of that traumastate.
So, sadly, the main reason thishappens to our kids is from
school and when they end up in aspace where they're begging
their parents not to go toschool and having significant
behaviours to do anything toavoid school as in that everyday
avoidance then behaviors to doanything to avoid school, as in
that everyday avoidance then ourkids will end up in a space
(41:23):
where they're not at school andmost likely in PDA burnout.
So they will spend however longthat lasts weeks, months,
hopefully not years in a spacewhere they will have very little
emotional capacity to do theday-to-day things.
So a lot of the time it lookslike kids consistently gaming
and withdrawing into thatfantasy space as a way of
processing what is going on andthen coming back into the world
(41:45):
when they're ready to do so.
The way I coped was I didn't.
I got to a point where I was soburnt out, like my son, that I
had to give up everythingbecause I wasn't coping anymore.
And only then did he start toimprove because I went into
low-demand parenting which atthe time, not knowing what that
was, it was a space where he hadfull control.
When he had full control hestarted to improve.
(42:07):
So his burnout lasted aboutfive to six months and he
started to improve.
Like all parents, we watch ourkids be happy.
I started to improve and then westarted to understand.
We finally had someone whounderstood PDA even in the
smallest sense, and that's whenI started to learn more about
PDA.
But that's when the businessidea came.
(42:28):
So the business idea started tothrive and I thought this is
how I can help other people.
And it was almost immediateafter that point and I had a new
drive forward and a new passionthat I was completely fixed
because I was able to regaincontrol.
So on reflection, and when youasked me about moments that I
thought, how did I know I was aPDA-er?
There's another example becauseas soon as I had a direction
and a passion forward,everything was fixed in the
(42:48):
moment.
Dana (42:49):
And you didn't have to use that control on your kids, but
you used it in your careerCorrect.
Sarah (42:56):
So I continued to focus and control on myself about
things that in my own world thatI can control, and let my
children control their ownspaces.
And then I really started tolearn about what choice and
control was and peopleunderstand think they understand
what choice and control is.
But to truly let go and letyour child you have full choice
and control within theboundaries of safety, and watch
(43:17):
them thrive and believe in thatprocess.
It's scary but it works andfamilies that I've watched do it
.
It works time and time again.
It's just when they're ready toengage that space.
Dana (43:26):
So how do you give choice and control if something's
unsafe?
Sarah (43:31):
You don't.
So you work with your child.
So an emotionally regulatedchild will be able to have,
hopefully, a conversation aboutthat.
So things like my son likes totell me that he likes to jump
off the roof, which he has neverdone.
But I'll say something like Ican't say we can't jump off the
roof because that's a directdemand, and he'll go and try and
do it.
But I can say something like oh, but if you jump on the roof,
won't you hurt your legs?
(43:51):
Because it's 10 meters, buddy,and you know you might break
your legs and that could besuper scary for you, because I'm
not talking about me in thatmoment, I'm talking about him.
I'm getting giving him contextto get him to reflect on the
information.
So because I have regulatedchildren, I can have those
conversations.
When I didn't have regulatedchildren, yes, I absolutely need
to make sure they can stay safe, and if that means I need to be
(44:13):
more in a space where I canmake sure, like physically they
can remain safe, then that'swhat I did.
But that doesn't buildrelational safety with them.
That actually breaks it down.
So it is important toemotionally regulate your kids
as a priority and only then canyou start having those deeper
conversations in those contexttimes to keep them safe.
Dana (44:33):
Just for my own information.
So you said that even whenyou're sitting on a couch, sarah
, that there's a lot of thoughtsgoing through your mind.
So does that mean people whohave a lot of thoughts going
through their mind can'tmeditate or learn meditation or
anything like that?
Sarah (44:50):
No, not at all.
I have a lot of parents who arevery much in that space and
love meditation.
I am not that person, so, as ahyperactive ADHD, I would much
rather be on the move andmeditation is definitely not the
thing for me.
Running up and down stairs.
Absolutely running down stairsand coming up with business
ideas and always thinkingforward about travel, and my
(45:11):
mind likes to move in differentcircles and I guess that's okay,
which is why I don't like thetraditional models of self-care.
We should like meditation and weneed to slow down.
I don't need to slow down to becalm.
If I want to move fast, thenthat's fine for me, because I
can move twice the pace of someother people and still be
completely regulated and calm,and I have enough
self-reflection.
(45:32):
I know when it's too fast andthat I am pushing myself too
hard, because I have physicalsymptoms that demonstrates this
to me.
So you know, in the PDA space,I guess I love the what I've
learned about reflectivepractice, because that's
actually the thing we should beencouraging.
The more you understandyourself, the more you want.
You know yourself so well thatyou will make strong decisions
(45:52):
that are best for you based onhow your body's feeling and how
your mind's feeling.
Absolutely, and the two arelinked body's feeling and how
your mind's feeling.
I agree, and the two are linked.
Dana (45:58):
Great, I agree, absolutely Okay.
So, wrapping up, what would bethree things you could suggest
to parents, sarah, who arelistening, to be able to live
their best?
Sarah (46:12):
lives and be the best parents they can be for their
children.
I guess, firstly, you have totrust yourself.
So you know there's so muchinformation out there.
Social media has worsened thisin a lot of ways for people.
So please trust your gut, trustyourself and it's okay if you
make mistakes, because mistakesis how we learn and we should be
encouraging this for our kidsas well that they aren't alone.
People aren't alone, even thoughyou feel very isolated in
(46:34):
moments like this, and Ivalidate that for you because I
have been isolated in this space.
But to find your people andfinding your people doesn't
necessarily mean your currentfriends and family.
That can be what people thinkthat they should have
unsolicited love from theircurrent friends and family.
But sadly, a lot of the timeswhen we have children that are
perceived to be different or wehave family that don't
(46:55):
understand our kids, that wehave a lot of judgment and guilt
there and that can be reallyhard.
So find your people who dounderstand, and being part of
neurodivergent groups andcelebrating neurodivergence for
what it is is really exciting.
And most importantly, I'd sayforget what you know, what you
think you know, and you have toembrace what you don't know,
because this is actually howyou're going to find yourself
(47:17):
and how you're going to helpyour children the most.
And people who come to me readyfor that journey are easily the
ones who do the best straightaway, because they are
absolutely ready to be taughtsomething that you know
societally tells them is wrong,but that they're ready to try an
alternative method.
And I'm not telling you youhave to do it, I'm presenting an
alternative, and you, asparents, still have control for
(47:38):
what you do with your children.
But yeah, you have to bewilling to look another way.
Dana (47:42):
Yeah, and I think parents get really scared of the NDIS
and the goals and they have tosee a speech pathologist, they
have to see the OT, they have todo this, they have to do that.
But I think you know, you aredefinitely right.
Parents need to follow theirgut feeling and it's not the
medical model that we arepromoting.
Well, I'm not promoting themedical model.
(48:03):
Um, it's the social model.
So it's really looking at whatare the needs of the child, what
are the needs of the parent andwho, who are the people that
are going to be best in thisspace to help them.
So if the child's not talking,I don't say you have to see a
speech pathologist.
It it might be a play person,it might be a support worker,
because it's going to be therelationship that brings that
(48:24):
out right?
Sarah (48:25):
Yes, exactly so.
It's the relational safety thechild or the person feels in
those moments.
So if the child's not ready fortherapy, don't push them into
therapy.
Sadly, a lot of the autisticreports we read say once you get
diagnosed, it's speech, psychot immediately.
That's really sad and and a lotof parents always ask me what
do I think?
And nearly always the answer islike a lot of our pda kids
(48:46):
don't really need a lot oftherapies.
You're talking about highlyintelligent children who are
highly dysregulated until youchange your parenting style.
Once you change your parentingstyle and you go low demand,
then have a look and if yourchild needs something you'll
know what it is and you'll goforward in that space.
But you also need to find theright person.
Putting any allied healthprofessional with them is going
to actually traumatise them.
(49:06):
You must find someone who isPDA-affirming.
Dana (49:09):
And also I think, like in our space, we've got play
therapists and early childhoodeducator and often they are the
best people because they're justall about the play and they
come for the play.
Yep, and often we say theydon't need speech and OT.
Speech and OT are the last onthe list.
Sarah (49:26):
That's right, and play obviously gives the children
more choice in those moments,which is why it works.
So the children are seekingchoice and control.
They're seeking that safety,and we need to find ways to give
it to them.
Dana (49:35):
So, sarah, very last question what has been the
highlight of your life so far ofbeing your children's parent
and a business owner of theamazing PDA Kids?
Sarah (49:52):
our PDA Kids.
I guess as a parent, I loveseeing the little things.
So my son is highly witty.
He is such a smart kid.
I love seeing how quick hismind is.
He's just hilarious and I guessI love that from the
perspective of people think thatautistic people are so dry and
can't be funny.
But my son is so funny and Ilove watching his brain work For
my daughter.
She is highly creative and isyears above her age in the care
(50:13):
she has in the social justicespace and her equality for
people.
So I love watching how theyhave designed this stuff for
themselves.
They are pushing their owndirection forward and they're
going to be these great kids andadults and I just get to be
part of that journey and I lovesupporting that journey, knowing
that I'm not driving any agendafor them.
They are driving their ownagenda and what a privilege that
is as a parent to know thatit's not my responsibility.
(50:37):
That's on on them and I supportthe direction they take.
As a business owner, I just Iguess I love what I do.
I love being able to supportpeople, given a lot of people
who see me are women and mums.
I love being able to supportwomen, because I find that
society has let us down so muchand I really want to be able to
support women to empowerthemselves.
Like I said, I don't empowerother people.
(50:57):
They empower themselves throughlived experience and through
conversations with other womenthat show them that they have
all the skills to do this, andI'm more than happy to support
that journey for them, opposedto fix that journey for them.
So, like we spoke aboutchanging that language and
showing them an alternative wayand saying that it's okay, and
validating the experiencesthey've had, which a lot of
people will not do.
(51:18):
So I think that validation isreally important and being able
to shift that parental structureand that societal structure,
the education structure ofsystems that are not supporting
us, and how we can do that sodifferently, and I guess that
love for helping others in a waythat they need, not the way
that they should need, is why Idrive this forward.
Dana (51:38):
So, Sarah, what's your waiting list?
Sarah (51:41):
So my waiting list is increasing but I have some
wonderful staff with another onecoming on board shortly who,
like I said, are allneuroaffirming, all
neurodivergent, withneurodivergent children, sitting
currently at 8 to 12 weeks.
I also have a built-in webinar,so once you hit my waitlist you
can access my webinar series,which is a four-week series.
(52:04):
I'm hitting all the main topicsin the PDA space that are the
generic topics that parentsalways want to know about, which
is behaviors and school screenuse, as well as a live Q&A with
me where you can ask me anything.
So I guess that's open to allof my waitlisted families and a
lot of people really love havingsome immediate information
until you can get one-on-oneservice.
But eight to 12 weeks in thetherapeutic space is good and it
(52:27):
gives people, like I said, astarting point before they can
move into that one-on-one space.
I love it.
Dana (52:33):
Sarah love it.
Thank you so much for coming ontoday and I'm sure the
listeners would agree it's beenan amazing, amazing session of
information around the PDA spaceand what the PDA profile is and
isn't.
I would love if parents writein questions or if there's like
(52:55):
frequently asked questions.
That would be great to haveanother session around that,
because I know there's notenough information around PDA in
our community and it'sdefinitely an area that's
growing and growing and peoplewant to learn more.
So thank you so much.
Sarah (53:11):
No worries.
Thank you so much for having me.
For those seeking moreinformation, jump on my website.
There is a resources page thathas books that are PDA affirming
.
There is a research page thathas academic literature.
If you're more inclined thatway, professionals or parents,
so jump on, have a look so youcan get more information.
And thank you so much, Dana,for having me.
It's been a wonder to talkabout PDA.
Dana (53:31):
Okay, thank you very much and thanks for listening.
Hi, Sarah.
Welcome to my podcast, theEmpowered Parent.
I'm so, so excited to have youhere, and today we are going to
talk about PDA, or PathologicalDemand Avoidance, or Extreme
Demand Avoidance, and what thatlooks and feels like for
(00:22):
children and families.
You have a Master's in SocialWork and describe yourself as
being a proud autistic womanwith a PDA profile, and you also
parent boy and girl twins, bothof whom are awesome, awesome
autistic PDAers and reallyhighly intelligent and fantastic
(00:44):
kids.
You help many parents andfamilies who are either PDAers
themselves or live with someonewho is a PDAer.
You run a successful businesscalled Our PDA Kids and have
clients in Adelaide andinterstate.
The link to your website willbe on the comments of our
podcast.
(01:04):
Excellent, okay, I invited youhere today because I feel it's
so important for empoweredparents like yourself because I
definitely see you as anempowered parent to share their
stories with other parents,especially those who may be just
starting their journey ofraising a neurodivergent child
or two, or those who are reallystruggling in this domain.
(01:27):
Sarah, could you please startby telling our listeners a
little bit about yourself inyour own words, about your own
story as a neurodivergent womanand mother, and how do you do it
all?
Sarah (01:43):
Thanks, Dana, for having me here today.
So yeah, hi everybody.
So I'm Sarah and I guess myjourney is both similar and
different to others.
So I started out as a paramedicin New South Wales.
I have a very strong medicalbackground and I was really
lucky that in 2018, when wemoved our family to South
Australia which then my twinswere three I had the opportunity
(02:06):
to keep studying in paramedicsor go and try something new, and
I'm all about the lifelonglearning.
So I went back to uni and gotmy Master's in social work,
which is this is really great.
I came from a trauma space andwas really interested in
domestic violence, sexualassault as my history with
paramedics, and then thought,yeah, let's do that.
Then life happened and mylittle boy started demonstrating
(02:29):
behaviors that I didn'tunderstand, and we go down that
pathway, which many of you willunderstand very well, and he
gets an autism diagnosis.
As someone who used to work inthe autistic space in my 20s, I
agreed with the diagnosis, butsomething wasn't quite right.
So, like many of you willunderstand, you keep looking,
you keep looking, you keeplooking and eventually I got
(02:49):
that beautiful light bulb momentwhere I found PDA.
I'm still studying at thispoint and I finished my study.
But my son has gone into burnoutwhich we'll cover a bit later
and he stops going to school andI start becoming a
homeschooling parent.
So I now in my brain is tellingme I've just studied for two
years for no reason, becausewhat I'm hoping to achieve in my
(03:11):
professional life given I'mquite driven in my professional
world is not going to happenanymore.
And some months pass and hecomes out of burnout and I think
I know what I'll do.
I'll just start a business thathelps other PDA parents and
maybe I can help two or threefamilies while I help my son,
and that's a really good ideafor me and I build a business
and think this is going to begreat.
(03:31):
And 12 months later I have over200 families and speak
internationally sorry and haveclients all over Australia and
provide professional development, and I think that's wonderful.
Through the process I getmyself diagnosed, my daughter is
diagnosed and now we live in abeautiful neurodivergent family
(03:53):
where we can support each otherand understand each other.
And I think it's brilliant andI'm so proud that I got to start
the business but that I gotmyself diagnosed and that I
really embraced what that lookedlike and how much better it
made my life, to understandmyself better and why did you
get yourself diagnosed?
Dana (04:10):
What were some of the I guess, the flags that you're
going?
Sarah (04:15):
hey, this isn't right for me, it's a funny story actually
and the person will knowthemselves when I say this is I
was actually bailed up in one ofmy client sessions by a parent
who asked me flat out fiveminutes into the session when I
found out I was neurodivergent,to which I answered I'm not, I'm
not neurodivergent.
And she hassled me for thewhole 55 minutes of that session
(04:38):
until I got back in my car andI was like what just happened?
And I rang my husband at thetime and said look, this just
happened.
And he was like what justhappened?
And I rang my husband at thetime and said look, this just
happened.
And he was like, oh, likethere's probably something in
that.
And I was like don't beridiculous.
And hung up from him and rangmy best friend and said, look,
this has happened.
And she said, oh, you mightwant to think about that.
And I was like don't beridiculous.
(04:59):
And I rang my girlfriend, whois neurodivergent, and told her
and she said yes, sarah, I wasjust waiting for you to get
there yourself.
So I started thinking about itand, as the beautiful PDA brain
that I have, within 24 hours Iwas completely convinced that I
was autistic ADHD and I bookedmyself in for assessments.
Whilst I completely validatethose who do self-assessment and
(05:21):
self-diagnose for autism, Ivery much am the sort of person
who wanted the intellectualconversation with a woman that I
respected and really wanted toengage that process.
And I found that woman and hada lovely experience with her, a
two to three hour conversationand I was so empowered within
that time and also learned thatI had PDA in that moment, which
(05:41):
was embarrassing given I'm a PDAprofessional.
But obviously it just showed mehow different it can present in
everybody, especially in adults, and I really loved being
diagnosed and definitelyencourage other women which I
come across a lot in my work tobe diagnosed and to understand
themselves better, which in turnobviously helps you understand
your children.
That's great.
Dana (06:03):
And so people listening might say yeah, but how do you
know?
Like, how do you know that youknow?
How do people know that youhave PDA, or that yourself I?
Sarah (06:14):
myself would have.
So I guess, there's a and Iguess I'm lucky that I have
studied social work, which is alot about reflective practice,
so I'm able to reflect on thingsfrom my childhood and my
teenage years and my twentiesabout times.
So PDA obviously is all aboutthe need for the person to have
overwhelming choice and control.
So when I think about the fewtimes in my life that I have
(06:37):
truly struggled, it is when I'velost that control, and that
would be my parents' separation.
I really struggled a lot morethan I should have given.
I was 19 at the time.
I really struggled that myparents separated and I couldn't
control what was happening next.
And then I actually wentthrough IVF to have my beautiful
twins.
So in that time I struggled alot more than other people
(07:00):
around me because I lost controlof the process.
It wasn't the fact that Icouldn't have children, it's
that I couldn't control how Ihad children.
So I think there were somereally big reflective moments
and then, as I was able to speakto the person who assessed me
about the day-to-day decisionsthat I've made, about why did I
want to run my own business asopposed to working for somebody
else, that's because I likebeing in charge.
(07:20):
I like being in control.
I, I like being in charge.
I like being in control.
I get to control my whole beingnow and as a PDA, this suits me
perfectly and you can look backacross your life at making
decisions and how you parent,your parenting decisions that
tell you, you have PDA Amazing,so let's go straight into it.
Dana (07:41):
What is PDA?
Sarah (07:43):
So PDA is a nervous system disability which is
highly invisible.
That is the child or theadult's body telling them they
need an overwhelming sense ofchoice and control.
So it is a cumulative disorder,as in you don't see a
precursing event and then a bigmeltdown and then the after
(08:04):
effect, like you might intraditional autism't see a
precursing event and then a bigmeltdown and then the after
effect, like you might intraditional autism.
You see an accumulation ofmicrotraumas, let's call them
that happen across a day beforewe get to that meltdown point.
So PDA is a profile of autism,just like those would know
Asperger's is a profile ofautism.
Pda is the same concept thatit's a profile under the autism
(08:24):
spectrum.
So it's part of theneurodivergent world and I guess
it looks differently foreverybody, which I love, because
we really need to get away fromthis point where autism looks
the same for everybody.
It presents differently in ourboys and our girls and across
all people and I love thatbecause because it's unique.
Dana (08:43):
So people, you know we see a lot of children that come
here and you know they're not.
They haven't got the classicautism symptoms, but they're
really struggling in the world.
They're finding it really hardbecause they're losing control.
So we go down the path of let'shave a look at PDA.
(09:06):
Like you say, it is a spectrum.
Where can people get thediagnosis?
Like is it in the DSM-5?
Sarah (09:16):
or yeah, so obviously autism.
Those who've been in theautistic world for a while will
know it's extremely challengingwhen your child doesn't present
like the classic DSM-5guidelines.
So for those who aren't aware,dsm-5 is the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual, where it'san international guide that has
all disabilities and mentalhealth listed and this is how
(09:36):
psychiatrists, psychologists,pediatricians can diagnose
children or adults with anydisorder.
Now, that language is notneuroaffirming, but that's what
we're sitting in the medicalspace.
That is how it's discussed.
So autism sits within thatguideline.
So you can be diagnosed autistic, but you cannot be diagnosed
with PDA because it does notappear in the DSM-5.
(09:57):
However, as we've discussed,pda is a profile of autism.
So if you go to a PDA-affirmingpsychologist which I have a
beautiful referral list then youcan go and have someone who
understands PDA enough that theywill be able to say, yes, your
child is autistic based on thisand I can see they have PDA and
you will have it written intoyour assessment document.
(10:19):
So when you give that to NDISit will be clear that your child
is autistic, you qualify forNDIS if you get a level two
diagnosis of autism, but thatyour child has a PDA profile.
Dana (10:31):
And what about schooling?
Like, are there are schoolscoming more on board around PDA
or is it more like a behavioralapproach?
Sarah (10:40):
I have had both experiences.
So schooling is by far thenumber one issue our children
face because we're in a societythat hasn't changed in the
schooling space in a long time.
So schools are very much aboutthe educational need of all
children in sitting within thatstudent cohort.
And for our kids, whilst theyare beautiful learners, they, as
(11:02):
we know, need choice andcontrol.
So they need to have choice andcontrol how they learn.
And this can be very difficultin schools.
There are some schools who havego above and beyond to meet the
needs of individual childrenwithin their student cohort,
regardless if they have PDA ornot, and this is wonderful and I
can absolutely work with thoseschools because they have the
(11:23):
right positive culture tosupport individual students.
And that's all we need.
We need open-mindedness and theunderstanding that flexible
accommodations can be made tomeet the needs of individual
students and this helps studentsastronomically and it's
wonderful.
There are definitely schools Ihave tried to support who are
not willing to do that or don'thave the resourcing to do that
(11:46):
or are more in the old schoolstyle and which drives children
out of school a lot of this timeit isn't the school
specifically, but it's asocietal understanding that
children should be in school.
Well, that's actually not theonly thing, how we learn.
So I do speak with a lot offamilies about and, whilst I am
a huge advocate for theeducation system, not to
(12:06):
homeschool, people can choosetheir own pathway.
I think it can be difficultwhen students want to go to
school but the school can'tsupport their needs, but that
there are actually other ways wecan teach our children, and I
think that's definitely been ajourney I've been on, having
homeschooled my own son for 12months, when he chose that
pathway for himself, and it'snot something I wanted to do.
(12:30):
So, for those parents who wantto, congratulations to you, but
I definitely was not one of you.
I was forced into it from thesituation he was going through
in his PDA burnout, and it is areally difficult space when you
start, but I haven't.
That's the number one thingthat I've learned the most about
from supporting him in thatspace is how to homeschool and
how to meet how to truly meethis needs in the moment.
Dana (12:50):
How do you homeschool Like are there lots of resources for
parents, Because to me thatsounds pretty scary.
Sarah (12:59):
It is extremely scary when you start, extremely scary
when you start and I guessthere's another arm of my
business now that reallysupports PDA families who are
going to homeschool about onehow to logistically achieve it,
how to complete paperwork toachieve it, and then actually
what does it look like.
So there is an abundance ofresources about homeschooling.
It was like a completelyuntapped area of my life.
(13:20):
I was very lucky that I have afriend in Queensland who has
homeschooled her children fromthe beginning, so she was a
great resource for me, just tobe a calming influence and be
like it's okay, this is notgoing to break you.
And I guess for the PDA space,which is where a lot of families
go wrong is people try to takethe curriculum they would in a
schooling setting and they tryand encourage their child to do
(13:41):
it at home.
Now that is the traditionalhomeschooling model and all of
us who live through COVIDunderstand that model and it was
really traumatizing for a lotof us, especially for those
clients I have in Victoria.
But what I see most successfulwith PDAs would be called the
unschooling modality, where youtake the learnings of everyday
life and you encourage yourchild naturally through your
(14:03):
natural, day-to-day and that'show they learn.
So, for example, I would go foodshopping and my son would come
with me when he felt he couldand he would ask if he could run
around and pick out items forhimself and I'd say, that's a
great idea, but while you'redoing that, like mummy's only
got a certain amount of money,so can you please tell me how
much they cost and add them up.
And because he's such mathsmart kid, he would pick items
(14:24):
that he wanted and he would addthem up.
So he would be doing math inthe moment.
Then he would scan items withme, so I was teaching some life
skills.
Then we would talk to people inthe shop when he felt
comfortable and we'd be doingsome English work.
So there is natural learningthat happens all the time.
I live near the beach, so wewould go to the beach and he
(14:49):
would start a conversation abouthow we would throw the ball
together and I would talk aboutphysics.
Then we would talk about sanderosion when we're in the ocean
and rips.
So you can cover geography andscience and you follow the
child's lead.
For example, my son at themoment is teaching himself the
flags of the world, so he isteaching himself geography
whenever he wants to, how hewants to, and this is how his
PDA presents.
Because he is in control of hisown learning and he can thrive.
Dana (15:09):
So that's really.
That is so interesting, Sarah,and I noticed that you use sort
of non-declarative language withyour son.
Is that right?
Like you're not sort of givinghim direction.
Sarah (15:21):
Correct.
So non-declarative language isone strategy in the PDA space
that you can use and it's aboutgiving information sort of.
I talk about it as in givinginformation into the ether in
third person.
So when I want him to dosomething that I know is in his
best interest for example, go tothe beach, where we need to
wear sun cream and a hat I mightsay to him oh it's so hot today
(15:43):
, mate, like I need to go findmy hat, which is telling him
maybe he needs to look for hishat, opposed to saying can you
please run upstairs and get yourhat, which is a direct demand,
which, in the PDA space, thedemand is the thing that our
nervous system is not copingwith.
So that makes it hard for him togo and get his hat, opposed to
me giving him choice to get hishat.
And declarative language isdifficult when parents first
(16:05):
learn about it, because it'sit's asking adults to change how
they speak when they're veryused to being a certain way.
And I think this is the mostchallenging thing in my work is
it's not about changing yourchild, it's about changing us as
parents, about how we engagewith our children and as
neurodivergent parents, this canbe quite difficult because it's
hard for us to change and forthose of us that have PDA, we
(16:28):
have our own triggers of whatthat looks like.
Dana (16:31):
So I think it can be a very interesting space,
difficult at times, but forthose who are ready to hear the
information and take a differentapproach, it can be amazing
amazing and I know that we'veworked a lot with families
around declarative language bymodelling as well, as there are
speech pathologists in the USthat have got webinars and then
(16:53):
we've got also books aboutdeclarative language.
So there are resources and Imight actually add those as well
, so that would be really goodfor all people that are
interested in the PDA space.
Sarah (17:04):
Absolutely, and there's also a Queensland specialist
named Kate Clenow who has anorganisation called Raising PDA
Children.
If you look on her website,there is a sheet you can
download for like a cheat sheeton declarative language.
Kate is amazing.
She runs a beautiful 10-weekcourse in PDA space, but she has
an excellent resource fordeclarative language as well, so
(17:26):
let's put that on the commentsas well.
Dana (17:29):
Sarah commands what are they demands?
I know people have said theycould be external, they can be
internal.
What does a day look like for achild that has PDA or an adult
that has PDA?
Sarah (17:42):
Yep.
So demands are the everydaytasks that we give our children,
that they perceive whether thatbe a real or perceived demand
and that makes their nervoussystem escalate.
So it can be anything, becauseit's how the nervous system of
the individual reacts.
So if your child wakes up andyou go into their room and say,
good morning, let's headdownstairs and have breakfast,
(18:02):
that child could perceive thatthat's a demand because they
didn't choose to have breakfast.
You've told them they have tohave breakfast.
Therefore you have given them adirect demand.
I guess there's three main typesof demands.
So direct demand is when youdirectly give an instruction to
somebody, and indirect demandcan be things like our internal
bodily functions, timeexpectation, praise, and these
(18:24):
sort of things can be, like Isaid, real or perceived demands
for the child, such as theexpectation that because they
achieved something on a Tuesday,they'll be able to back that up
and do the exact same thing ona Wednesday, or that when you
praise a PDA child, what theyhear can be now I have to do it
again tomorrow, but I can't doit tomorrow, and now the demand
is the thing that increasestheir anxiety and therefore they
(18:46):
can't move.
So the other one would bedemands within demands, which
can be difficult to understandinitially.
But it's like that beachexample I gave, where you say to
the kids, like it's so hot,let's go to the beach today, and
they start to escalate anddon't want to go.
But you know that your childrenlove the beach.
So it's about for my kids, it'sabout the knowledge that when I
(19:07):
say let's go to the beach, allthey think about is mum's going
to make us put sun cream on wehate putting sun cream on then
she's going to stop us going outfar in the ocean and when we
get home she's going to make uswash our hair.
And those things are demandswithin demands within demands,
and they stop them with thosequestions.
So it's about having childrenwho are emotionally regulated to
work through that stuff so theyunderstand what the expectation
(19:27):
is.
Dana (19:27):
Yes, but also that I take my hands off the wheel and let
them control, within theboundaries of safety, what they
can and can't achieve and I'dsay even a good morning could be
a demand, because then that islike that triggers off a whole
sequence of things they need todo right, that's exactly right.
Sarah (19:44):
So the morning ones would be about going downstairs and
having breakfast.
But the toast is on the wrongside of the toast this morning,
mummy, and it's not buttered theway I like, and why is it in
squares, not triangles?
And then I don't want to wearthose clothes to school and then
I don't have to go to school.
It's thursday.
I don't want to go on athursday because library's on
thursday, and then I don't haveto go to school.
It's Thursday.
I don't want to go on aThursday because library's on
Thursday, and then it's theseatbelt feels wrong, and then
it's I'm on the wrong side ofthe car and the demands are
(20:05):
ongoing and, like I said,cumulative, and these lead
towards an emotionallydysregulated child who's going
to hit that trauma response.
So one of the main learnings Itry and help parents understand
with PDA is try not to thinkautism.
Try not to think autism.
When you keep thinking autismin the PDA space, you'll go down
the routine structure pathwayof traditional autistic
strategies and traits.
We really want to move awayfrom that.
(20:26):
And whilst PDA is a profile ofautism, we want to think about
control and choice and this sitsin the trauma space that when
kids become too dysregulated.
Think of PDA like a traumaresponse.
Like if someone for an adulthad someone break into their
house with a gun, you are goingto do something in that straight
.
You're either going to fightthe person, you're either going
(20:46):
to run away, you're going tofreeze.
These are trauma responses thatadults have.
Our children are having thosemoments when they become
emotionally dysregulated by thedemands of everyday life.
Dana (20:56):
And what happens to the nervous system, the neurobiology
, when the child is traumatizedor when someone is traumatized?
Sarah (21:04):
yep, so I guess um this, like I say, neurobiology.
So the rationality you have inyour brain that tells you how to
calmly work through yourproblems is switched off, and
when you go into a trauma spaceit's all emotional, which is why
, for um I hate this word butbehaviors of concern and
challenging behaviors we talkabout in the schooling space or
in the medical space, which isnot neuroaffirming language at
(21:26):
all but, that's how it'sdescribed.
Those sort of things can occur.
So our kids can really strugglewith their behaviour, which is
actually just their nervoussystem trying to demonstrate how
they feel in their brain.
So a child who is hitting or isrunning away from an adult,
this is a child saying I can'tcope, please back off.
You are making me feel unsafe.
And PDA is all about a spacewhere the child is having that
(21:50):
trauma response.
So they're having feelings ofsignificant unsafety and we need
to make sure they can feel safein their nervous system.
So this relational safety webuild with our children, whether
we be parents or professionalsor teachers, this is the
importance that keep the childin a space where they can
emotionally regulate in ourpresence, and I love that trauma
(22:10):
response.
Dana (22:11):
That's more neurodivergent friendly language.
What other neurodivergentfriendly language could parents
use instead of like challengingbehaviors?
Or he's violent, or he'smanipulative, or he doesn't
listen, you know what else couldparents be saying?
How could they reframe theirchild's behaviors for themselves
(22:32):
?
Because I really believe thatlanguage is important.
Sarah (22:35):
Yes, absolutely, and I think I always try and encourage
parents to meet the needs oftheir child in the moment.
And the language like you say,it's so important and people
think it's insignificant.
It's not because it's alsoabout how we model that language
to our kids.
So I try and give the childrendefinitely my own children,
encourage others to give themthe language that we use with
(22:55):
them.
So I talk about like what isyour choice?
Or like I see and make surewe're acknowledging and
validating how they're feeling,not labeling their feelings for
them.
So I talk about like what isyour choice?
Or like I see and make surewe're acknowledging and
validating how they're feeling,not labeling their feelings for
them.
So language around choice,control and safety.
And what do you need so thatthey're having to model back to
me and saying I feel unsafe andI'm like, okay, what can we do
about that?
But I need them to have thelanguage.
(23:16):
I need the kids to have thelanguage to know what to say,
opposed to punching me orrunning away from me.
I need my children to be ableto come to me and say I'm
unhappy about this or I feelunsafe because you did this and
that's fantastic and that'salways celebrated when they can
articulate what's going on.
And people can only articulatehow they feel when they are not
(23:36):
in that trauma space.
So when we have kids who arehaving these trauma responses,
they haven't got the capacity inthose moments to articulate
what they feel, because in atrauma response, like I said,
the rationality is switched off.
It's all emotional.
Their actions are their wordsand we have to view them as that
it's like a panic attack almostyeah.
So it's an anxiety drivendisorder.
So it's all about the anxietythey feel, which can be be
(23:59):
crippling, and it's terrible towatch children go through this,
especially when we have theskills to change it for them.
It's the systems around society, whether it be education system
, health system, how societyruns as an as a system, that
blocks this for our children,and we really need to work hard
to encourage parents to see itfrom a different point of view
and and what about medication?
Dana (24:22):
Do parents go down that path or what's going on in that
with medication in the PDA space?
Sarah (24:28):
Yeah, absolutely so.
It's definitely something thatis discussed in accordance with
a PDA affirming pediatrician,and medication is absolutely one
avenue that parents can go down, which most likely looks like
an anti-anxiety.
But it's really importantparents understand that
medication alone is not going tofix your child.
(24:49):
It is not about fixing anything.
We fully celebrate theneurodivergence within our
children.
I need parents to see therealities of this wonderful
situation and embrace it and youwill have a much happier child
and a much happier family life.
And there's a lot ofenvironmental work that needs to
happen first before we just jammedication into our kids and
think it's going to fix anything.
But yes, I think bothenvironmental factors and
(25:10):
medication can work hand in handbeautifully and my
pediatricians will tell you thesame.
They will not medicate yourchild without the environmental
factors being looked at forother reasons why things are
going on and our parenting styleand our change, like I said,
about how we're viewed insociety.
That's the stuff that needs tochange before we put medication
in our kids.
(25:31):
But yes, there has been a lotof success with things like
floxetine as one medication thatI know a lot of PDA families
utilize, and that's wonderful,also remembering that a lot of
autistic children have ADHD.
So they say the stats are about50%.
I'd say that's probably morelike 100%.
I agree.
So most kids or some kids Ishould say not most will be
(25:55):
medicated for ADHD as well.
So then you need to work with apaediatrician to see how to
cross-medicate for multiplediagnoses.
Dana (26:03):
And I just find it really interesting about when we're
talking about parents and PDAkids and parents possibly having
PDA, and I think I may have metclients who where the parents
have PDA but don't know thatbecause they really want to
control and they want to controltheir child and then it becomes
(26:23):
like a family control issuebecause the child is
uncontrollable.
The parent wants to control thechild the way they want to
control the child.
Have you had family systemslike that?
Sarah (26:34):
Yes, so that's my whole bread and butter and I guess I
came from a family like that.
I was that parent, I was atraditional parent.
I had kids who were extremelycompliant and I had twins.
So obviously, you know, I wastold initially, put them on the
same schedule, put them on thesame routine, that's how you
survive the twin world.
And I was like that makescomplete sense to me and I did
it and my ex husband and I weresuccessful in that and we had a
(26:55):
beautiful couple of first coupleof years with our twins where
everything was flowingbeautifully until things started
to shift and he shifted a lotquicker than I did in his
calmness.
I wanted to be more controlling,because that's who I was more
naturally, and it took a bit oftime to understand what we
needed to provide for ourchildren to meet their needs.
And then, now that we know howto do that because we actually
found some research andeducation and we found people
(27:16):
like myself to help us then weknew what we were doing.
But absolutely, I come acrosslots of parents knowing that
autism is genetic and PDA is aprofile of autism.
There is a lot of parents Imeet with who they have
undiagnosed autism orundiagnosed autism, pda or ADHD,
let's say and I am happy tohave those conversations when I
(27:37):
feel it's appropriate withparents, and I don't think
there's anything wrong with thatPeople often ask me you know,
should I tell the parent I thinkthey're autistic?
And the answer is always yes,because we shouldn't be scared
or shamed that we areneurodivergent.
We should celebrate that andpeople will often not be able to
see the link between why theyare that controlling parent and
(28:01):
when you point it out to them,people I have had, most people
be very happy to hear thisinformation.
Then I can support people inthat journey and talk about my
journey with them, and thatlived experience is why the
business is successfulAbsolutely Because I have myself
as a neurodivergent woman andall the staff I hire are
neurodivergent withneurodivergent children, so that
they understand exactly what'sgoing on, opposed to people who
don't.
Dana (28:20):
No, and what about?
So what if the parent is stillnot there?
Doesn't really hasn't got thatreflective capacity to reflect
on their neurodivergency.
Sarah (28:36):
Yep.
So that's okay and everyone'son their own journey and that's
going to be validated too.
So it's not my job to pushanybody into that diagnosis and
it's encouraging.
So I would say this is what I.
If they ask me, I'll say what Ithink and I can refer them to
an appropriately PDA affirmingor neuro affirming specialist to
get that diagnosis.
We can talk about selfdiagnosis, which some people are
more than happy to do, but myexperience has actually shown me
(28:56):
that people actually are morewilling to talk about it,
because if they're on thejourney with their children and
I tell them that autism isgenetic, then they can make the
links themselves and it startsto make people reflect on they
think that their parents may beneurodivergent and their
grandparents are neurodivergent,yes.
And then the shame is gone.
People are scared because ofwhat autism looked like.
You know 50 years ago, when wesaw you know little boys in the
(29:19):
corner males only you knoweating glue lining ago, when we
saw you know little boys in thecorner males only you know
eating glue lining up trucks,and people thought you couldn't
have a life.
Now we know so much more.
We know that neurodivergencecan be celebrated.
Some of the smartest people inthe world all neurodivergent,
yes.
And then people are always verysurprised when I tell them that
I have autism, pda, and peoplesay but you're so high
functioning.
(29:39):
Then I talk about the term highfunctioning with them and which
I don't like that term eitherUm, because it's not about me
being high functioning.
It's a spectrum for a reasonthat at any given day I can be
high on that spectrum or low onthat spectrum and we don't want
to differentiate.
We are all neurodivergent ifyou're sitting in that space and
that should be celebrated.
People shouldn't be scared ofthat.
(29:59):
But I understand why they are,because there is a lot of shame
and guilt around it still, butwe're trying to change that.
Dana (30:05):
And what about different cultures?
Have you worked with familiesfrom different cultural
backgrounds?
Sarah (30:10):
I have.
So I've got some beautifulFirst Nations families which I
love supporting, especially inthe social work space, because
obviously it's complicated andalso obviously culturally.
I've got some beautiful MiddleEastern families now, which is
lovely.
And to work in a space wheretraditionally these things were
not celebrated and are still notso, yes, it can be challenging,
(30:32):
but we have support teams for areason that understand this.
And even just yesterday I had abeautiful Afghani family that I
worked with and they were sohappy to hear the information
they were very honest that thisinformation would not be
celebrated across some of theirfamily, but one step at a time.
So I need the parents tounderstand what the information
is to support their son and thenhow we go forward from that
(30:53):
point.
So that's what social work is.
So I'm more than happy toengage that space with them, and
it's lovely to be able tosupport people from varied
cultures, and I love supportingour First Nations families
because people want theinformation, regardless of their
culture.
This is information that, sadly, is really hard to come by, so
it's really lovely to be able toprovide it.
Dana (31:14):
How many PDA affirming GPs , pediatricians, are there in
South Australia, australia?
Is it a handful?
Is it a bucket full?
Sarah (31:27):
Where are we at with that .
So the PDA Australia has asection on their website that
has a list of everybody wholists themselves as PDA
affirming.
So that's PDA Australia, pdaAustralia.
So Australia and New Zealand,sorry.
Okay, now that list means youcan add yourself to that list
without anyone verifyinganything.
And sadly, some people who I'vegiven that list to have said I
(31:50):
rang that person, they didn'thave a clue what they were
talking about.
So now when I refer people, Ihave already done the background
work for you that knows otherfamilies have seen the person
specifically and give me exactdetails.
Or I ring the professional tomake sure they know enough about
PDA in this space that I wouldrefer a family to them in South
Australia that looks like twopediatrician organizations,
(32:12):
which is sad.
One of them is a very largeorganization, which is great,
but I refer so many families tothem I think they're getting
overwhelmed.
Um, but gps, it's very hit andmiss um, sadly um, because it's
just not something that'seducated on.
So it's such a new space.
Obviously this only was firstdocumented in 2003 in the uk.
Um, even though the concept wasum, she came up with it in 1983
(32:35):
and that's dr elizabeth newson.
She only wrote about it in 2003.
That was only 20 years ago, sowe need to remember that
autism's been around for over100 years.
We can't expect PDA to spread,but people should be excited
because it is spreading likeabsolute wildfire the
information.
So we are getting more PDAaffirming allied health
professionals and medicalprofessionals.
I'm more interested in havingOT speeches and psychs across
(32:58):
this information, which is whywe also do a lot of professional
development in that space andalso I'm hoping that more and
more schools start to embracePDA and understand that it's not
a behaviour Does that makesense Absolutely and I do a lot
of school training, whether itbe advocacy with the family in
(33:21):
the schooling space, and thatcan be charged either from the
schooling perspective or throughthe child's NDIS plan if it's
child specific.
So I am fortunate to do a lot ofschool training for individual
teachers and for largestteaching cohorts.
I've also done some work withthe if you're from South
Australia, the autism inclusionteachers, the leadership team of
(33:42):
that group.
I did some PDA presenting tothem and I've also later in the
year presenting to theAustralian Teachers Aid
Association.
I'm doing some webinars for them.
That's great, which iswonderful.
Just to spread that informationas quick as we can, because
obviously the micro work you doone-on-one with families is
brilliant and I wouldn't give itup for anything, because
obviously the micro work you doone-on-one with families is
brilliant and I wouldn't give itup for anything.
(34:02):
However, the macro work we cando at a larger scale to spread
the information is what we need.
We need literature about PDA inAustralia, which we don't have,
which is also why I'm startinga PhD in the PDA space.
But also that macro work topresent to larger cohorts to
make sure the information isvaried, not just through one
organisation.
Dana (34:20):
larger cohorts to make sure the information is varied,
not just through oneorganization.
So let's just talk about thename PDA pathological demand
avoidance.
Why pathological?
What's with?
Sarah (34:30):
that word?
Yeah, so it was coined by DrElizabeth Newsom, like I said,
in the UK.
She wrote about it in 2003.
She was a clinical psychologist, so it's not surprising it's
named that because it's amedicalised term.
A lot of people have troublewith the term pathological
because it's medicalised, and Iunderstand that completely,
which is why in America it'smore referred to as extreme
(34:51):
demand avoidance.
I don't like that one either,because extreme indicates that's
where all the whole PDAcommunity sits, and that's not
true.
So persistent drive forautonomy is what a lot of people
in the PDA community like torefer it to, or I like to refer
to it as pretty darn awesome.
Dana (35:07):
Great, I love that Pretty darn awesome.
I love that.
That's what we're going torefer it to.
So you are very empowered,sarah.
How did you become like who youare?
You know?
You said that you, you know youhad your twins.
You studied social work.
Like what made you think, okay,I am, I'm Sarah and I'm pretty
(35:33):
darn awesome.
Sarah (35:34):
I guess I am very driven by learning, like I said earlier
, so I always want to know whatI don't know, and this has done
my life wonders, because beingdiagnosed with something I
didn't know, so now I knowplenty.
And helping families, whetherit be as a paramedic or now as a
social worker, I get to learnmore and more each day from
people, and learning from peoplein how they live and what
(35:57):
they've experienced is how youlearn.
Whilst I adore studying that'sa piece of paper in a book live,
and what they've experienced ishow you learn.
Whilst I adore studying.
That's a piece of paper in abook telling me what something
is and my reflection on it.
I love being able to learn frompeople in communities and that
lived experience is so importantto me.
So I guess I'm empowered bythose around me who are trying.
I don't need people to come tome with all the answers.
(36:17):
I need people to want to beopen-minded, to learn something,
and that's all.
You need to be empowered.
So I think I definitely am theperson who understands that you
can't empower somebody else.
You can only walk next to themand they will become empowered.
They are ready for that journeyand I think I've had to learn
that for myself and because ofthat learning I'm now able to
(36:39):
share that with other people.
Dana (36:40):
I've had to learn that for myself and because of that
learning, I'm now able to sharethat with other people.
And what about mental healthfor yourself?
Physical health for yourself?
What do you do in that space?
Sarah (36:48):
Yeah.
So I guess the work-lifebalance is definitely something
I've never been able to achieve.
I'm very aware that I don'thave it, and I do talk to a lot
of parents about that, becauseall of us who are parents know
parenting is reallychallenging's one.
It's the hardest job, by anabsolute mile, that you'll ever
do.
Um, is parenting neurodivergentchildren more difficult?
I would say no, there arechallenges of all parenting, but
(37:08):
it's not the parenting of theneurodivergent children that's
difficult.
It's the lack of informationand support that is difficult.
And once you've got that andyou're on the right path, then
then it's just difficult, likeall the other parents who are
exhausted out there.
So what path do I take?
I love sport, so when I can, Itry and be fit.
So I go to the gym with mypartner and I will exercise and
(37:31):
I will walk and I will go to thebeach, and I love being
outdoors, mental health-wise, Ithink, whilst a lot of people
say you need a break from work,work is really empowering for me
.
So I love working, but I knowwhen I've reached my limit and
it can be difficult starting abusiness where the business is
built around what's in my brain.
So I have to find ways to helpother people learn that
(37:52):
information so I can help asmany people as I can.
But, yeah, it is important totake breaks and to have time off
, but spending time with thekids and holidaying and doing
things that you can do in thatmental health space is really
important.
And it's naive of professionalsto say to parents to make sure
you have self-care and take careof yourself, without any
(38:12):
context around what that lookslike, especially for those of us
who had children in burnout orwho are facing challenging times
.
So there are times when Ididn't leave my house for six
months because my son couldn'tleave the house and he wouldn't
leave me, and yes, it'schallenging.
And did I have self-care then?
No, I didn't, but I also hadthe realistic notion that it
(38:32):
doesn't last forever and that Ineeded to give him what he
needed in that moment.
So we need to make sure, whenwe're talking about self-care,
that we know that, yes, it canlook different for everybody,
but that we don't set too highan expectation on what we can
achieve based on what our kidsare going through.
Dana (38:46):
And I think that self-care if you ask, you know in the
home and your child's goingthrough burnout, then it might
be just three breaths.
Sarah (38:56):
Yes, and I used to run up and down the stairs, I used to
feed him and and sit next to him.
So when he asked for food orwhen I would get him food every
hour to make sure he was stillgrowing, then I would run up and
down the stairs and in my houseand I would try.
I didn't really have muchcapacity to talk to people
outside of the family at thattime because it was so stressful
for me, Um, but you know, amorning shower, I could wash my
(39:18):
hair and I think, oh, thankgoodness, I have clean hair
today.
Dana (39:20):
That's huge.
And I think it's about beingmindful that you are doing it
for yourself.
It's not about when you haveyour shower.
If you can, if nobody's callingyour name out, you know through
the house if you have a shower,be in the moment.
If you're washing your hair,say, wow, nine days I've washed
my hair, that's great.
Sarah (39:40):
Right, absolutely, absolutely.
Couldn't agree more.
And as a PDA, I think I reallystruggled because I was
undiagnosed that time tounderstand that I was losing
control.
The reason I struggled wasbecause I was losing control of
a situation that I didn'tunderstand why I was losing that
control.
But it was about those smallwins, about having the capacity,
the emotional capacity, to stepforward in a part of the day
(40:01):
and be like I've got this.
I'm going to walk around thebackyard or I'm going to, you
know, do some gardening, or I'mgoing to cook a new meal tonight
for the family or pick up mydaughter.
Dana (40:09):
Or just do nothing on the couch.
Just do nothing, if that'spossible.
My brain is not allowing me todo nothing.
My brain is always moving.
Sarah (40:16):
But you know, when I could study, I would study, but
being kind to yourself, I thinkthat was what I learnt more in
that time that I lost theability a lot to study and to
work and to do much else,because my emotional capacity
tanked, because I ended up in aburnout space, a trauma space,
just like my son did.
And that's okay and you know, Ididn't understand at the time.
It was very difficult but onreflection on it I know why.
(40:46):
I was there, based on myundiagnosis, based on what was
going on for him, and what Ineeded in that time was to be
kind to myself, not continue topush myself when I didn't have
the capacity.
Dana (40:50):
So talk to me a little bit .
You said you did mention theburnout earlier on and you said
you're going to talk about itlater.
What you know what led to that?
How did you come out of it,both of you?
Sarah (41:02):
So PDA burnout is when a child hits that trauma state and
can't get out of that traumastate.
So, sadly, the main reason thishappens to our kids is from
school and when they end up in aspace where they're begging
their parents not to go toschool and having significant
behaviours to do anything toavoid school as in that everyday
avoidance then behaviors to doanything to avoid school, as in
that everyday avoidance then ourkids will end up in a space
(41:23):
where they're not at school andmost likely in PDA burnout.
So they will spend however longthat lasts weeks, months,
hopefully not years in a spacewhere they will have very little
emotional capacity to do theday-to-day things.
So a lot of the time it lookslike kids consistently gaming
and withdrawing into thatfantasy space as a way of
processing what is going on andthen coming back into the world
(41:45):
when they're ready to do so.
The way I coped was I didn't.
I got to a point where I was soburnt out, like my son, that I
had to give up everythingbecause I wasn't coping anymore.
And only then did he start toimprove because I went into
low-demand parenting which atthe time, not knowing what that
was, it was a space where he hadfull control.
When he had full control hestarted to improve.
(42:07):
So his burnout lasted aboutfive to six months and he
started to improve.
Like all parents, we watch ourkids be happy.
I started to improve and then westarted to understand.
We finally had someone whounderstood PDA even in the
smallest sense, and that's whenI started to learn more about
PDA.
But that's when the businessidea came.
(42:28):
So the business idea started tothrive and I thought this is
how I can help other people.
And it was almost immediateafter that point and I had a new
drive forward and a new passionthat I was completely fixed
because I was able to regaincontrol.
So on reflection, and when youasked me about moments that I
thought, how did I know I was aPDA-er?
There's another example becauseas soon as I had a direction
and a passion forward,everything was fixed in the
(42:48):
moment.
Dana (42:49):
And you didn't have to use that control on your kids, but
you used it in your careerCorrect.
Sarah (42:56):
So I continued to focus and control on myself about
things that in my own world thatI can control, and let my
children control their ownspaces.
And then I really started tolearn about what choice and
control was and peopleunderstand think they understand
what choice and control is.
But to truly let go and letyour child you have full choice
and control within theboundaries of safety, and watch
(43:17):
them thrive and believe in thatprocess.
It's scary but it works andfamilies that I've watched do it
.
It works time and time again.
It's just when they're ready toengage that space.
Dana (43:26):
So how do you give choice and control if something's
unsafe?
Sarah (43:31):
You don't.
So you work with your child.
So an emotionally regulatedchild will be able to have,
hopefully, a conversation aboutthat.
So things like my son likes totell me that he likes to jump
off the roof, which he has neverdone.
But I'll say something like Ican't say we can't jump off the
roof because that's a directdemand, and he'll go and try and
do it.
But I can say something like oh, but if you jump on the roof,
won't you hurt your legs?
(43:51):
Because it's 10 meters, buddy,and you know you might break
your legs and that could besuper scary for you, because I'm
not talking about me in thatmoment, I'm talking about him.
I'm getting giving him contextto get him to reflect on the
information.
So because I have regulatedchildren, I can have those
conversations.
When I didn't have regulatedchildren, yes, I absolutely need
to make sure they can stay safe, and if that means I need to be
(44:13):
more in a space where I canmake sure, like physically they
can remain safe, then that'swhat I did.
But that doesn't buildrelational safety with them.
That actually breaks it down.
So it is important toemotionally regulate your kids
as a priority and only then canyou start having those deeper
conversations in those contexttimes to keep them safe.
Dana (44:33):
Just for my own information.
So you said that even whenyou're sitting on a couch, sarah
, that there's a lot of thoughtsgoing through your mind.
So does that mean people whohave a lot of thoughts going
through their mind can'tmeditate or learn meditation or
anything like that?
Sarah (44:50):
No, not at all.
I have a lot of parents who arevery much in that space and
love meditation.
I am not that person, so, as ahyperactive ADHD, I would much
rather be on the move andmeditation is definitely not the
thing for me.
Running up and down stairs.
Absolutely running down stairsand coming up with business
ideas and always thinkingforward about travel, and my
(45:11):
mind likes to move in differentcircles and I guess that's okay,
which is why I don't like thetraditional models of self-care.
We should like meditation and weneed to slow down.
I don't need to slow down to becalm.
If I want to move fast, thenthat's fine for me, because I
can move twice the pace of someother people and still be
completely regulated and calm,and I have enough
self-reflection.
(45:32):
I know when it's too fast andthat I am pushing myself too
hard, because I have physicalsymptoms that demonstrates this
to me.
So you know, in the PDA space,I guess I love the what I've
learned about reflectivepractice, because that's
actually the thing we should beencouraging.
The more you understandyourself, the more you want.
You know yourself so well thatyou will make strong decisions
(45:52):
that are best for you based onhow your body's feeling and how
your mind's feeling.
Absolutely, and the two arelinked body's feeling and how
your mind's feeling.
I agree, and the two are linked.
Dana (45:58):
Great, I agree, absolutely Okay.
So, wrapping up, what would bethree things you could suggest
to parents, sarah, who arelistening, to be able to live
their best?
Sarah (46:12):
lives and be the best parents they can be for their
children.
I guess, firstly, you have totrust yourself.
So you know there's so muchinformation out there.
Social media has worsened thisin a lot of ways for people.
So please trust your gut, trustyourself and it's okay if you
make mistakes, because mistakesis how we learn and we should be
encouraging this for our kidsas well that they aren't alone.
People aren't alone, even thoughyou feel very isolated in
(46:34):
moments like this, and Ivalidate that for you because I
have been isolated in this space.
But to find your people andfinding your people doesn't
necessarily mean your currentfriends and family.
That can be what people thinkthat they should have
unsolicited love from theircurrent friends and family.
But sadly, a lot of the timeswhen we have children that are
perceived to be different or wehave family that don't
(46:55):
understand our kids, that wehave a lot of judgment and guilt
there and that can be reallyhard.
So find your people who dounderstand, and being part of
neurodivergent groups andcelebrating neurodivergence for
what it is is really exciting.
And most importantly, I'd sayforget what you know, what you
think you know, and you have toembrace what you don't know,
because this is actually howyou're going to find yourself
(47:17):
and how you're going to helpyour children the most.
And people who come to me readyfor that journey are easily the
ones who do the best straightaway, because they are
absolutely ready to be taughtsomething that you know
societally tells them is wrong,but that they're ready to try an
alternative method.
And I'm not telling you youhave to do it, I'm presenting an
alternative, and you, asparents, still have control for
(47:38):
what you do with your children.
But yeah, you have to bewilling to look another way.
Dana (47:42):
Yeah, and I think parents get really scared of the NDIS
and the goals and they have tosee a speech pathologist, they
have to see the OT, they have todo this, they have to do that.
But I think you know, you aredefinitely right.
Parents need to follow theirgut feeling and it's not the
medical model that we arepromoting.
Well, I'm not promoting themedical model.
(48:03):
Um, it's the social model.
So it's really looking at whatare the needs of the child, what
are the needs of the parent andwho, who are the people that
are going to be best in thisspace to help them.
So if the child's not talking,I don't say you have to see a
speech pathologist.
It it might be a play person,it might be a support worker,
because it's going to be therelationship that brings that
(48:24):
out right?
Sarah (48:25):
Yes, exactly so.
It's the relational safety thechild or the person feels in
those moments.
So if the child's not ready fortherapy, don't push them into
therapy.
Sadly, a lot of the autisticreports we read say once you get
diagnosed, it's speech, psychot immediately.
That's really sad and and a lotof parents always ask me what
do I think?
And nearly always the answer islike a lot of our pda kids
(48:46):
don't really need a lot oftherapies.
You're talking about highlyintelligent children who are
highly dysregulated until youchange your parenting style.
Once you change your parentingstyle and you go low demand,
then have a look and if yourchild needs something you'll
know what it is and you'll goforward in that space.
But you also need to find theright person.
Putting any allied healthprofessional with them is going
to actually traumatise them.
(49:06):
You must find someone who isPDA-affirming.
Dana (49:09):
And also I think, like in our space, we've got play
therapists and early childhoodeducator and often they are the
best people because they're justall about the play and they
come for the play.
Yep, and often we say theydon't need speech and OT.
Speech and OT are the last onthe list.
Sarah (49:26):
That's right, and play obviously gives the children
more choice in those moments,which is why it works.
So the children are seekingchoice and control.
They're seeking that safety,and we need to find ways to give
it to them.
Dana (49:35):
So, sarah, very last question what has been the
highlight of your life so far ofbeing your children's parent
and a business owner of theamazing PDA Kids?
Sarah (49:52):
our PDA Kids.
I guess as a parent, I loveseeing the little things.
So my son is highly witty.
He is such a smart kid.
I love seeing how quick hismind is.
He's just hilarious and I guessI love that from the
perspective of people think thatautistic people are so dry and
can't be funny.
But my son is so funny and Ilove watching his brain work For
my daughter.
She is highly creative and isyears above her age in the care
(50:13):
she has in the social justicespace and her equality for
people.
So I love watching how theyhave designed this stuff for
themselves.
They are pushing their owndirection forward and they're
going to be these great kids andadults and I just get to be
part of that journey and I lovesupporting that journey, knowing
that I'm not driving any agendafor them.
They are driving their ownagenda and what a privilege that
is as a parent to know thatit's not my responsibility.
(50:37):
That's on on them and I supportthe direction they take.
As a business owner, I just Iguess I love what I do.
I love being able to supportpeople, given a lot of people
who see me are women and mums.
I love being able to supportwomen, because I find that
society has let us down so muchand I really want to be able to
support women to empowerthemselves.
Like I said, I don't empowerother people.
(50:57):
They empower themselves throughlived experience and through
conversations with other womenthat show them that they have
all the skills to do this, andI'm more than happy to support
that journey for them, opposedto fix that journey for them.
So, like we spoke aboutchanging that language and
showing them an alternative wayand saying that it's okay, and
validating the experiencesthey've had, which a lot of
people will not do.
(51:18):
So I think that validation isreally important and being able
to shift that parental structureand that societal structure,
the education structure ofsystems that are not supporting
us, and how we can do that sodifferently, and I guess that
love for helping others in a waythat they need, not the way
that they should need, is why Idrive this forward.
Dana (51:38):
So, Sarah, what's your waiting list?
Sarah (51:41):
So my waiting list is increasing but I have some
wonderful staff with another onecoming on board shortly who,
like I said, are allneuroaffirming, all
neurodivergent, withneurodivergent children, sitting
currently at 8 to 12 weeks.
I also have a built-in webinar,so once you hit my waitlist you
can access my webinar series,which is a four-week series.
(52:04):
I'm hitting all the main topicsin the PDA space that are the
generic topics that parentsalways want to know about, which
is behaviors and school screenuse, as well as a live Q&A with
me where you can ask me anything.
So I guess that's open to allof my waitlisted families and a
lot of people really love havingsome immediate information
until you can get one-on-oneservice.
But eight to 12 weeks in thetherapeutic space is good and it
(52:27):
gives people, like I said, astarting point before they can
move into that one-on-one space.
I love it.
Dana (52:33):
Sarah love it.
Thank you so much for coming ontoday and I'm sure the
listeners would agree it's beenan amazing, amazing session of
information around the PDA spaceand what the PDA profile is and
isn't.
I would love if parents writein questions or if there's like
(52:55):
frequently asked questions.
That would be great to haveanother session around that,
because I know there's notenough information around PDA in
our community and it'sdefinitely an area that's
growing and growing and peoplewant to learn more.
So thank you so much.
Sarah (53:11):
No worries.
Thank you so much for having me.
For those seeking moreinformation, jump on my website.
There is a resources page thathas books that are PDA affirming
.
There is a research page thathas academic literature.
If you're more inclined thatway, professionals or parents,
so jump on, have a look so youcan get more information.
And thank you so much, Dana,for having me.
It's been a wonder to talkabout PDA.
Dana (53:31):
Okay, thank you very much and thanks for listening.
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