Natalie Oliveri, Music Therapist and Founder of Creative Therapy speaks about the power of Music Therapy in Regulation, Connection, Communication and Relationships. Natalie is passionate about Music Therapy and the healing and joy it brings to all!
For more information about Natalie and her team's work, please check out Creative Therapy
https://www.creativetherapyadelaide.com.au/
danabaltutis.com, mytherapyhouse.com.au, https://mytherapyhouse.com.au/your-childs-therapy-journey/ https://www.danabaltutis.com/services
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Episode Transcript
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Dana (00:01):
Hi, Natalie Oliveri, Welcome to the Empowered Parent
Podcast.
I'm so excited to have you onthe podcast because you are a
music therapist and musictherapy is very close to my
heart.
I've seen children transformbecause of music therapy and
even learn to speak if they havebeen non-speaking.
(00:24):
So you've got a great,innovative clinic in Adelaide
called Creative Therapy, andright now we are at your clinic
in the consulting room, so ifpeople hear some background
noise, we are live in the clinic.
Before we talk about yourbeautiful, wonderful clinic,
though, I would like to startoff by asking you why and how
(00:47):
did you become a music therapist?
Natalie (00:50):
Oh yes, what a profession.
There's not a day that goes bythat I don't regret becoming a
music therapist.
I had, I guess, a desire to wantto help people.
I went back to uni after beinga journalist and studied music
and just thought what am I doing?
I don't want to be a performer,what am I going to do with this
(01:13):
?
And revisited music therapy,which I had looked at when I was
in year 12 and just thought, ohman, what a pathway that's
going to take a long time for meto get to, to where I want to
be and yeah.
So I kind of took the long roadand applied for the master's
music therapy at MelbourneUniversity, got in and haven't
(01:36):
looked back so.
I haven't had the prerequisitesthat I needed and just sailed on
and became a registered musictherapist.
Dana (01:45):
And so what's your instrument?
I'm a vocalist, right?
So there is such a thing as avocal instrument, yeah.
Natalie (01:58):
I'm such a big advocate for music, for voice as an
instrument.
I get so annoyed when theschool my children go to send
out, oh, instrumental lessonsand voice, and I'm like no voice
is an instrument.
So yeah, it's a beautifulmedium to connect with people.
And even just using the voiceitself can be such a wonderful
(02:24):
meditative and wellbeing toolthat you know I love to teach
people to access, to use fortheir own wellbeing, and it can
be very regulating as well ifyou've got the right voice for
the right environment for theright, situation right and it
could be dysregulating as well,so yeah, very interesting right,
(02:47):
and it could be dysregulated aswell.
Dana (02:49):
So, yeah, very interesting .
Um, lots of families ask mewhat is the difference between a
music therapist?
Natalie (02:54):
and a music teacher.
So a music teacher's job is toteach someone how to make music
uh, music notation, musicianship, even understanding different
genres and styles.
So a music teacher will betrained in the pedagogy of music
, whereas a registered musictherapist will be trained in the
(03:16):
science and the physiologicalimpact of music on our bodies
and brains, and they willunderstand a variety of
different methods and theresearch behind those methods
that mean that music can be aneffective tool in helping
someone's health, functioningand wellbeing.
Dana (03:36):
So if someone's going to music therapy, does that mean
they need to be able to readnotes?
Not at all.
Natalie (03:44):
And that is the most beautiful thing about music
therapy as a tool.
Music as a tool to connect withsomeone within a therapeutic
relationship is just soeffective because it's very,
very rare that you will findsomeone that doesn't have some
sort of connection with music.
Most people have a favouritesong or a favorite genre or a
(04:07):
favorite band, um, or have heardmusic as a child or as an adult
or whatever it is.
Dana (04:14):
Uh, there's always an in with music when you're working
with someone, and I know my mumhad dementia and she well
towards the end of her life andmusic was the thing that really,
you know, brought that gleam inher eyes.
So it really stays with usalmost until the end doesn't it?
Natalie (04:36):
Yeah, music sits really deep From the beginning, from
the beginning.
Dana (04:38):
Yeah, it sits deep in our memory, yeah, and accesses so
many different parts of thebrain.
Natalie (04:44):
Yeah, because babies love music and then the elderly,
they love their music right, weran an early childhood music
session yesterday and I startedmy hello song and there was this
baby who would have been noteven 12 months old, sitting up
bopping along to the music.
In time, and I turned to theother music therapist who was
(05:04):
there with me.
We were just like, yes, science, like that kid's responding to
music in all the ways that theresearch shows it will.
Dana (05:13):
So amazing, yeah, amazing.
So you talked about the scienceof it.
What are the benefits of musicfor children, especially, let's
say, children that are wireddifferently?
Natalie (05:28):
Yeah, so you know so much more understanding of
neurodivergence in our community, in people in our community,
and what I think I can offer interms of an answer is that music
accesses so many differentparts of the brain.
(05:49):
So if people are wireddifferently, the chances are
that, you know, music is goingto access a part of the brain
that that person has a strengthin, and so there was a.
I just want to tell you quicklyabout a study that was done
recently and there was a controlgroup and an experimental group
(06:15):
, and in this group there's allautistic children and in the
control group the children weregiven instructions and in the
experimental group they weresung the instructions and the
children who were sung theinstructions were better able to
perform and execute the tasksthat were requested of them
(06:38):
because it was given to them ina melodic form, and I think that
what that demonstrates is it'saccessing the parts of the brain
that works.
It works for those kids.
The spoken word obviously justdidn't work as well, and that's
really exemplary of how musiccan make such a profound impact.
Dana (06:59):
And like I've read that the left brain is more language
focused and the right brain isall the creativity and the music
.
And I know myself when I'veworked with children they seem
to learn to speak through song,so they're singing faster than
they're speaking.
Do you find that?
Natalie (07:19):
yeah, I mean.
There's plenty of kids that wework with who are autistic, who
you know.
To say a sentence, it's justnot possible for them but they
can sing whole songs and, as amusic therapist, our role is to
find ways that that is useful tothem.
(07:42):
Yes, functional right, yeah,that that is useful to them.
Dana (07:45):
Yes, functional, right, yeah, and I think it's great
when the child has a favouritesong and when we talk about
gestalt learners or holisticlearners and they learn things
in chunks and just to maybetweak one little thing at a time
and they actually accept it andyou think, whoa, that's
fantastic because you canactually use the song to teach
(08:07):
routine, to teach interaction,to teach greeting.
And I know, sometimes we, whenwe're working with children, we
often, we often get intooperettas, because that's the
only way we can communicate withthem, you know, and that's
where the voice is beautiful,because then you don't need any
(08:28):
instrument.
And I always say to familiesdon't worry about the way you
sing, just sing.
And some children don't like it, right, talk to me about that.
Why sometimes mum can't sing tothe child?
The child will put their handson their ears, whereas someone
else could sing to the child.
The child will put their handson their ears whereas someone
else could sing to the child.
(08:49):
Why is that?
Natalie (08:51):
There could be lots of different reasons.
I think one possibleexplanation could be that, you
know, sometimes neurodivergentchildren have a really
incredible attunement to pitch.
So if it's being sung out oftune that could be really like
(09:12):
dysregulating that auditoryinput.
It's just a bit too much itcould be, because it's not
what's expected.
Dana (09:20):
Like mum is mum, and why are you singing?
Natalie (09:23):
Yeah, and also, why are you using that voice?
Dana (09:25):
that's yeah, right right, right, interesting yeah it could
be so many different things.
It's really hard to yeah andjust to keep trying and try
different things.
Natalie (09:37):
Yeah, it could be the quality, the tone, the, the
exact pitch isn't you know.
The pitch of what they'resinging isn't right, but maybe
the frequency is just afrequency, that they don't like.
Yeah, it could be so manydifferent things, and that's
where it's really important towork with the individual child.
Dana (09:53):
Yeah, and that's where I guess music therapists really
understand how to analyse thatpiece over time.
Natalie (10:01):
You know you guys do that and test and try and you
know, ask those questions withthe understanding of all the
different elements of music andmusicality.
Dana (10:09):
That it could be, yeah and what about the children that
love those deep sounding drums?
They want to get in the drum,stand on the drum.
What's that about?
Natalie (10:22):
you know, sensory integration and and that rule,
um, you know what does thischild need and enjoy and like
for?
Um, for regulation could be aform of self-stimulatory
behavior.
Dana (10:38):
Um, yeah, there's lots of different reasons, but that is a
really common yeah, I guess itcould reverberate in their whole
body, you know, and they couldfeel it.
Natalie (10:47):
Yeah, yeah, I've worked with kids who, like their
parents, would take them to a,you know, outdoor music festival
or something and they'll juststand dead in front of the
speaker.
Yes, feel that bass in theirbody.
Yeah, love it.
Dana (10:59):
Yeah, yeah I think that the drums are um a thing in.
I know I could see them in yourclinic and they're definitely.
When I saw them I'm like, yeah,we've got those drums in our
clinic because sometimes they'rethe things that get the
children in right.
Yeah, Some of the things don't.
I've heard people say that theycan't hold a note or a tune or
(11:24):
a tune and are tone deaf.
Is there such a thing, or iseveryone musical?
Natalie (11:32):
I'd like to say that, you know, everyone can sing, and
I don't ever discourage anyonefrom singing because it's such a
beautiful way to make yourselffeel good.
I don't know.
I honestly don't know theanswer to that question.
There's definitely people whofind it hard to perceive, pitch
and understand what's in tuneand what's not.
(11:53):
But I mean, I think most peoplewould be able to listen to a
song and know whether or notit's in tune or not.
Dana (12:01):
Yeah, and maybe as well if people have tried to sing.
It's like I remember at artschool my art teacher said oh,
that's not right, that's wrong.
And then after that I thought Ican't draw, I can't paint.
And you know, we sort of carrythese limiting beliefs with us
and they just get bigger andbigger, because people start
(12:23):
looking at you and you think arethey looking at me because I
can't sing?
Natalie (12:25):
or I see that as something different though
that's more, more, maybe like atraumatic experience.
Dana (12:31):
Yes, yes.
Natalie (12:32):
That's impacted that person's like you said belief in
themselves.
Dana (12:37):
Yes.
Natalie (12:38):
But I think everyone can give it a go.
Dana (12:40):
Yeah, it's more.
Natalie (12:42):
We have this perception in society with all these music
, talent shows and everything.
Oh, that's right when everyonefeels like they can be the judge
of who's good and who's not.
Dana (12:51):
Yes, and in the end.
Natalie (12:52):
you know, if you like doing it Do it, do it.
Dana (12:55):
Yeah, exactly.
Some children are constantlyhumming tunes to themselves or
sounds, while other childrenblock their ears when they hear
music or sounds.
Natalie, can you please speakto this?
Natalie (13:11):
Yeah, again, maybe another example of some stimming
self-stimulatory behaviour.
But there's this beautifullittle case study of a boy that
I've worked with over many yearsnow, and when he first came to
me he was completely avoided ofany kind of music.
I didn't want to be around it.
(13:33):
Music's very much part of thefamily home.
They weren't able to play music, which was really disappointing
for the family, and over time Iwas able to work with this
child to develop his toleranceof music and just out of trial
(13:54):
and error was able to first addvocalizing and then
accompaniment to thevocalization on guitar, and now
that child will tolerate musicbecause over time.
We really worked on it and Idon't know if you've heard this
(14:14):
really common situation thathappens with a lot of autistic
kids who can't express what itis that is having that impact on
them in that moment.
But lots of kids hate the songHappy Birthday yes, they do,
yeah.
Of kids hate the song happybirthday yes, they do, yeah.
And I, my belief is what itcomes down to is it's sudden,
(14:35):
it's incredibly loud and it'susually very off key, and so
we've done a lot of work.
I've done a lot of work for thislittle way to tolerate happy
birthday, because that issomething that, as a family, has
a big impact, because if you goto a family event or a friend's
birthday and you know that yourchild is going to be really
(14:59):
harshly impacted by somethingyou know is going to happen at
that party, whether it be thatthey have a meltdown or that
they just you know can'ttolerate it and need to be out
of the room or you need to gohome because it can be so
impactful.
Um, that that's a reallyimportant thing for family to be
able to, to be able to overcome, and so, uh, we started by
(15:24):
using the song five littlecandles, which I don't know if
you know that one, five littlecandles, straight and tall,
burning brightly, count them all.
Dana (15:34):
I blow with all my might, and now there are four little
candle lights, so we startedwith the cake, not and I'm
throwing out the- candlebeautiful.
Natalie (15:44):
It was a familiar concept, uh, and something that
was enjoyed and something thatwas done together.
Um, and then bridging that intookay, so when someone has a
birthday, what do we do?
We sing a song, we blow out thecandles and what's the song and
we're going to sing the song.
We're going to practicetolerating the song, so I don't
(16:08):
know if that really answers theinitial question, but so many
factors can be at play.
Working with that child's needsand where they're at is so
important, and working to theirstrengths.
So if they are humming, you canuse that in so many ways in
improvisation, in listening,responses, vocalisation, and
(16:32):
then if they're avoidant of thatauditory input, then working to
see how we can increase theircapacity to be able to tolerate
it.
Dana (16:44):
Talk to me.
You mentioned self-stimming.
What is that in your eyes andhow does that play out?
Because I know, um, you know,we're, uh, moving towards
neurofirming language.
So you know, I think we talkedabout the humming and how it can
(17:05):
be is that more likeself-soothing?
Natalie (17:08):
yes, exactly, yeah, yeah, so I'm probably using the
older language in that context,yeah, something that someone
will do that that feels good tothem, that they do to regulate.
Dana (17:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah and I think, um, you know, probably
the one, the kids that arehumming.
Maybe they're also blocking outthings, right, potentially,
because even like we're sittingin this room and I'm talking to
you but I can hear the echo ofmy voice come back, yes, and
sometimes children might notlike that, or the biofeedback.
(17:38):
So, yeah, and I know parents,often I wish you'd be quiet, but
that's not the right way.
I don't think, to sort ofencompass that neurodiversity
and, like you say, it's sobeautiful what you said, natalie
, that use that neurodiversityto engage and interact.
(17:59):
And yeah, it's beautiful,beautiful.
What about if your child likesmusic and you as a parent feel
you cannot sing or are sensitiveto sounds and music yourself?
I know I'm very sensitive inthe evenings Don't talk to me,
put that TV, you know, mute allthe commercials and things like
(18:20):
that.
Is that potentially a mismatchand a problem?
Natalie (18:25):
So if that family were to come to me as a music
therapist?
My job would be to support themto find ways that everyone in
that family can have their needsmet right.
So we would come up withstrategies so that if that child
needed access to music forregulation, that they could have
that access in ways thatweren't impacting other family
members, for example, alsotalking about the use of
(18:47):
headphones, how we can set up adevice, so that music can be
accessed in a way that you knowthat's a great idea.
So you know even something assimple as you give them access
to Spotify Kids and you put iton guided access.
Dana (19:00):
Yeah right.
Natalie (19:01):
So that they can't access YouTube videos or
whatever else, but they canaccess their music or their
playlists that they want with aset of headphones, not impacting
the rest of the family, andthey're getting what they need.
So just talking through thosereally simple strategies which
you know families just have somuch thrown at them.
There's often a lot of stressassociated with having a family
(19:24):
member who might beneurodivergent if there are
other factors at play.
So just being able to talkthrough what those options are,
setting up and creatingplaylists that are appropriate
for the child thinking aboutwhat sort of music is
appropriate to play at certaintimes of the day.
You're not going to want to beplaying, you know, something
(19:47):
that's really going to amp thechild up before bedtime, right,
those sorts of things right,yeah, so you've almost got um a
music menu.
Dana (19:56):
It's like a food menu and you can choose which one you
like.
Natalie (20:01):
You know it's beautiful and there's so much out there,
like with technology, we are sospoiled and there's so many
strategies, ideas, apps and theaccess that we have to music at
the moment is incredible whichcan also be overwhelming as a
music therapist.
Dana (20:17):
But yeah, you just come across kids who just have the
most outlandish taste and you'relike I better go home and
listen to that and figure it out.
What is?
Natalie (20:25):
that k-pop.
So many kids are into k-pop andso, like you know, I can't play
k-pop, I can't speak korean.
Dana (20:33):
So interesting, yeah you know, oh interesting interesting
um, and what about, um, thechildren that uh like to play a
specific segment of a video ormusic track over and, over, and,
over and over again?
What's the purpose of that forthe children?
Natalie (20:54):
so I've had chats with speeches in the past yes, yes it
could be a little bit thatgestalt learning yes, that
holistic learning yeah, learningin chunks again, self-soothing
or trying to, you know, reallyliking something and wanting to
hear it over and over.
You know I've worked with kidswho they'll flick like, they
(21:17):
won't even play a video for asecond.
Dana (21:19):
No.
Natalie (21:19):
And they'll just flick and flick, and flick and flick.
I think that's probably alittle bit to do with
Self-soothing visual stimulation.
Yeah, maybe the device itself.
Okay, those devices are soaddictive, maybe it's like more
just trying to get that in it'slike having a bowl of M&Ms in
front of you and you just keepeating them.
(21:42):
But then I've seen kids who theywill, for example, if they've
got a movie or something ontheir ipad and they'll be able
to find the exact same scene andthey'll play the same scene
over and over.
I don't know, I feel like it'sthat's sort of I guess, a little
bit out of the scope of youknow, music therapy, but yeah, I
(22:03):
see that a lot and you're, Idon't know.
It's a really good question.
Dana (22:07):
I don't know the question sometimes I don't know the
answer either, and that's why Ithought I'd bring it here,
because sometimes I think, is itthat they're trying to figure
it out?
Or they like it so much thatyou know they feel quite
comfortable with it, it makessense to them.
Everything else around thatchunk doesn't make sense.
So I'll stay in my chunk,i'll'll stay on my island, I
(22:28):
don't know like I don't knoweither.
So the other thing we did touchon this as well, but some
children learn to speak throughsongs and music, but not through
typical language stimulation.
Do you find that a lot?
And, you know, is it somethingthat parents need to be looking
(22:55):
more into, like if their childis really, you know, able to
recite all the wiggles or allthese different songs, but are
not speaking?
Is it something that parentsneed to encourage instead of
trying to do language simulationand just going to see the plain
old speech pathologist.
Natalie (23:15):
So this is where I believe collaboration within
teams is just so incrediblyimportant.
In those instances, the inputof a speech pathologist is
invaluable.
A music therapist can neverreplace what a speech
pathologist can do with a childbut, they can make
recommendations and use methodsthat maybe the speech
pathologist isn't aware of, orable to access, yeah, because of
(23:39):
the musical elements.
So there's a branch of musictherapy called neurologic music
therapy and all there's like 20standardized methods and
techniques that are used thatcross, you know, cognitive
skills and motor skills and andspeech, language, communication
skills and there's a particularmethod using mostly in early
(24:01):
childhood, early intervention,called developmental speech and
language through music, andthat's kind of your age old, you
know when, um, you kind of seethose, those videos and leave
the word off the end yes, yesyes, you know, and you're
prompting that speech center ofthe brain to go stars.
(24:22):
Yes, to try and prompt the childyes to utilize the words and
the whole idea behind that andand they are standardised
techniques, they have a lot ofresearch behind them is that
you're accessing differentneural pathways in the brain and
you're able to encourage thatspeech and the you guess the
(24:47):
motor planning and all that yeahto try and get that um outcome
in the child so music.
Therapists are generally trainedin in those areas and they
understand that um speech can beelicited through engagement in
music and obviously there's noone-size-fits-all.
(25:09):
There's certain methods thatcan be used and you know,
sometimes it's a bit of trialand error to see what works for
a certain child.
But definitely thatcollaboration with the speech
therapist is so important.
I'm working at the moment withone and they've put all of our
music therapy activities so I'mworking with a younger child.
So we have a set of activitiesthat we've been doing on the
(25:32):
prolo and what we're working onat the moment is just practicing
those pathways.
Dana (25:39):
Requesting what that child wants to do, and because they
find the activities motivatingthey're motivated to use the
prolo, which is sometimes halfthe battle.
Natalie (25:48):
Yes, yes, so it's yeah it's using music in different
ways to support the person, todevelop whatever area you're
working on, yeah and for thoseof you who don't know what the
prolo is, it's a talking device.
Dana (26:03):
The talker, the talker.
I know, I know, because therewill be some people listening
and they're like I know exactlywhat you mean, natalie but I'm
always thinking about the peoplethat don't know.
So how can music regulate anddysregulate?
Natalie (26:18):
So, yeah like I mentioned before, there can be
triggers and anyone who's had anemotional experience in their
lifetime for example, if you'veattended a funeral or a wedding
you're going to have memoriesassociated with the music
potentially that you've heard.
So dysregulation can occur, Iguess, on an emotional level
(26:44):
where you're triggered by a songbecause maybe it's associated
with a sad memory or happymemory exactly, um.
But then I think there's alsothe the side of it, where it's
like the actual auditorystimulation is just like I
mentioned before, the frequencyisn't right, or it's just they
(27:08):
find it jarring because you knoweveryone's so different and
there's going to be music that Ilike, that you don't absolutely
that's just across the boardwhether you're neurodivergent or
whatever else there's going tobe lots of different aspects and
what you were saying beforeabout music's use in dementia
(27:31):
this is where it's so importantwhere a music therapist is
involved, when music is used indementia care, because music can
be so triggering.
There's already a lot of thingsgoing on cognitively for that
person that has they're.
They might be impaired indifferent ways and so having
(27:54):
that real strong sense andunderstanding for how music can
impact a person while utilizingit, it can be really, really
important I think it would beimportant for even the highly
sensitive kids that have gonethrough a lot of trauma 100%.
You know, so, yeah.
Dana (28:16):
So, Natalie, let's get to the core of this little chat.
I love this practice creativetherapy here in Adelaide.
How did you come to have thisamazing practice, like, how did
you, how did you birth it?
Natalie (28:35):
well, I was working in private practice for a few years
and just there was just a hugedemand for music therapy
services in Adelaide.
I'm a very big advocate formusic therapy.
I'm also the chairperson on mystate committee for the
australian music therapyassociation and there's no
training course for musictherapy here in adelaide, so
(28:59):
it's such a small workforce,like in adelaide there's 30
music therapists here, ascompared with melbourne where
there's like four.
No.
Dana (29:08):
Sydney, and why is there no training here in Adelaide?
Natalie (29:13):
Oh, good question.
We would love for there to beone and as a South Australian
committee and on a nationallevel as well, we're advocating
for another course to be set upsomewhere in Australia and I
would love for that to be here.
But uni mergers and all thesethings that are going on for our
(29:33):
state at the moment might meanthat it might not happen for a
while, if it does happen at all.
But it's definitely somethingI've got my finger on the pulse
with.
There's a training course inMelbourne and one in Sydney.
There used to be one inBrisbane course in Melbourne and
one in Sydney.
(29:53):
There used to be one inBrisbane.
And, yeah, basically there's apretty small cohort of people
from Adelaide that train tobecome music therapists every
year.
There's an option throughMelbourne Uni where they can
access the course onlinepartially and then go there to
Melbourne.
So we probably have two orthree, maybe four, if we're
(30:14):
lucky graduate every year herein Adelaide.
So when I started the practice,it was with every intention of
trying to build the musictherapy workforce here in
Adelaide.
I didn't necessarily want torecruit from Adelaide because I
didn't want to take musictherapists from other positions.
So we have quite a number ofpositions in hospitals here from
Adelaide because I didn't wantto take music therapists from
other positions.
(30:34):
So we have quite a number ofpositions in hospitals here, and
I would have been really sad tosee one of those positions go
unfilled to come here.
So we've actually recruitedthree full-time music therapists
over the course of the lastthree years from Melbourne,
Sydney and Brisbane from.
Melbourne, sydney and Brisbaneand as a private practice.
(30:56):
Working in private practiceprior to opening Creative
Therapy I didn't havenecessarily a lot of support.
I had supervision, but you knowit was quite a lonely space to
work in and I wanted to create ahub where there were multiple
music therapists, where we couldall be here to support one
(31:17):
another and collaborate and beable to grow the profession here
and grow the profile of musictherapy in particular here in.
Adelaide.
So, yeah, it's grown steadilyfrom me and my husband to
there's 11 of us here now, andthat includes five music
(31:40):
therapists, three speechpathologists and our admin team
and what about the NDIS?
Dana (31:47):
are they um friendly to music therapists?
Because I know like a few yearsago it was really difficult.
You had to do evidence-basedand show that that child really
needed music therapy.
How easy is it now for familiesto access music therapy through
the NDIS?
Natalie (32:04):
So the Australian Music Therapy Association is the
registering body of musictherapists across Australia.
So if you are looking for,music therapists, I encourage
you to make sure they areregistered with the Australian
Music Therapy Association.
And not a music teacher and nota music teacher and not a
support worker that uses music.
Dana (32:20):
Yes, all the rest of it yes.
Natalie (32:23):
And they have done an incredible amount of advocacy to
have music therapy recognisedas an evidence-based practice
and profession and if musictherapy has its own line item
within.
Dana (32:35):
The.
Natalie (32:35):
NDIS pricing arrangements.
So, if any, LAC or whoever elsesays to you music therapy is
not something NDIS will fund.
That's completely untrue.
It's actually in the pricingarrangements.
Dana (32:49):
So what if they could just have, like um, their uh allied
health pricing and then theycould take music therapy from
there, just like they takespeech ot whatever?
Natalie (33:00):
capacity building, capacity building, yeah and a
planner can tell you oh, we'regoing to give you funding for
speech therapy and ot andnothing else but in the end.
You have the choice as the planthe person who the plan is for
to say, okay.
Well, you know, I can see we'redoing really well in speech and
ot, but I want to try musictherapy.
(33:21):
We might do ot fortnightly andmusic therapy fortnightly and
see how we go.
So yeah, in the end.
It is up to the discretion ofthe person in how they want to
use their plan and that capacitybuilding funding.
Where you might run into alittle bit of, I guess, bother
is.
We have had people go to theappeals tribunal and they've
(33:45):
come back and said well, musictherapy is a duplication of
supports.
Well, music therapy is aduplication of supports and this
is quite a common thing that wecome across and that might be
because in our NDIS report we'vesaid, okay, we're working on
communication skills and theclient or participants also
accessing speech pathology, andthey're like well, you don't
need both because your speechpathologist is going to work on
(34:07):
communication skills.
So what's really important is toreally understand how music
therapy is going to complementthe other work that you're doing
in your therapy.
Dana (34:18):
So maybe if you're not accessing ot or you can't get
into an ot, you might accessmusic therapy to help with
regulation strategies alongsideyour speech therapy programming
and then you will encourage whatall of your therapists to work
together so that what'shappening in music therapy is
complementing speech and viceversa, and I think that's why
(34:38):
it's so important for familiesto share um, I know you know
people talk about privacy andconfidentiality, but I do think
that's why it's important forfamilies to be transparent with
their therapist, so then thetherapist and the other
supporting team can worktogether to ensure that they're
not working on the samecomponent, because goals can be
(35:04):
split up into differentcomponents.
So communication is very broadand, like you say, you can work
on regulation or interactionwith communication, while the
speech pathologist could beworking on comprehension and
social.
So or vice versa.
Natalie (35:19):
So that's so important as well, to give your therapist
time to write the report.
Dana (35:23):
Yes, and chat to each other before the report.
Natalie (35:25):
Yes, definitely you can do those cross recommendations
Definitely, definitely,definitely, yes, definitely, so
that you can do those crossrecommendations as well.
Dana (35:29):
Definitely, definitely, definitely so, natalie.
What type of clients do youwork with?
Natalie (35:37):
So I personally love working with the little ones.
I love working in earlychildhood, from, you know, birth
to five.
That's my jam.
And I love working with adultswith intellectual disability and
with teenagers.
So they're the sort of threemain areas and that's so broad.
Dana (35:57):
There's so much repertoire made it easy for myself.
Yeah, there's three differentareas.
Natalie (36:04):
Um.
So yeah, part of it is that Ijust love building those
relationships with the families,particularly in early childhood
, where maybe they're juststarting their journey of
comprehension of what'shappening what the child needs
and just having that knowledgebase to support them through,
(36:27):
you know, going and startingschool, that can be.
You know that's huge,especially in South Australia's
system.
It's pretty complex andsometimes seems a little unfair.
Dana (36:39):
Yeah, and do you guys have a wait list?
Natalie (36:43):
Well, it depends on the times and the days.
Dana (36:47):
Yes.
Natalie (36:48):
We've got some pretty good availability.
We've just brought on Luke,who's moved here from Brizzy um,
and he's an absolute champion,and so we've got a team of five
music therapists and as you knowpeople's plans change, people's
um, I guess, ability to committo things change.
So it's a pretty steady flow.
(37:09):
We kind of have a pretty goodflow of being able to provide a
service within a good time frame.
Dana (37:15):
That's great, and you do home home visits and clinic
school yeah so clinic andtelehealth as well.
Yeah, great, great, um, andwhat I'll do.
I will put your contact detailsin the notes below so parents
can contact.
I just want to ask what does ittake to become a music
(37:37):
therapist?
Like do you have to have amusic degree?
Or like how yeah, you do, soyou've got to go and get a music
degree, is that?
Natalie (37:44):
right, yeah, so Melbourne Uni has become a
little bit.
Not that they've become morelenient, but they do recognize
really high level skills withoutthe piece of paper so you need
to be able to read music.
Um you know, understand how toplay complex pieces on your main
instrument so I think the levelthat they expect is about an
(38:07):
ameb australian musiciansexamination board level seven
wow seven um, so I have adiploma in classical voice so
that's my um in my, in yes yeah,uh, but you know, roland, on
our team, kuhn and reena andluke have all done bachelor of
music in their chosen instrument.
(38:29):
So Rowan's a saxophonist but canplay guitar piano you know sing
as well so yeah, you need to bea really highly skilled
musician and then go on and getyour master's in music therapy.
Dana (38:40):
Because I can imagine some people listening will go oh, I
want to become a music therapist.
But you do need to do somebackground work before you just
go and do your music therapydegree and we're a big training
ground.
Natalie (38:52):
here we take a lot of the Masters Music Therapy
students that go through fromAdelaide, but we do occasionally
take observation students aswell, people who are really
seriously committed to studyingand pursuing.
Dana (39:04):
That's great, because people can come and see before
they commit to the long road.
Right, yes, right, people cancome and see before they commit
to the long road.
Yes, right, okay.
So wrapping up, natalie, whatare three recommendations you
could give to parents toincorporate music into their
child's daily routines?
Natalie (39:24):
Oh, I love this.
Okay, so music can be abeautiful way to encourage
transitions.
I love using music as a cue, soyou might use the same song at
the same time every day to cuefor teeth brushing, for example,
and you might use music as away to encourage pack away time.
(39:50):
So, there's a really great songby Sing and Grow Australia
which sounds a bit like a dancetechno track and it's so
motivating.
Like every time I hear it I'mlike do, do, do, do, and that's
a really wonderful way to helpkids pack away.
Get motivated Into the mood topack away as well, um, someone
(40:13):
told me this really funnyanecdote one day, where um they,
whenever they heard the um homeand away theme song yes, they
knew it was time to get ready togo to bed.
Dana (40:23):
Yeah, right, it's like seven o'clock, yeah, right how
funny is that?
Natalie (40:26):
so using I can understand that.
Yeah, I can understand.
Using music as a cue is areally lovely way to incorporate
music into your daily routine.
Music at night time is veryindividual, but generally, if
you are looking for music toplay to a child to help cue them
(40:48):
for sleep, you're looking atsomething around your 60 beats
per minute, which is yourresting heart rate.
That being said, if they'realready bouncing off the walls,
then putting on music at 60beats per minute isn't going to
be helpful.
Dana (41:02):
No, it's probably not going to work.
Natalie (41:04):
No, so we've actually got a really great blog on our
website about using music formood and regulation.
So the that explains how you'regoing to play music that meets
someone where they're at andthen gradually reduce the tempo
and the quality of the musicinto something more relaxing.
So you might, if you and I werelike dancing, do like dancing
(41:28):
music, and then we might put onsomething that's just a little
bit slower and then a little bitslower after that, until
eventually, maybe we're goinghome, yeah, and then we're going
.
Dana (41:37):
Oh, I want to go to bed now.
Good night, yeah right.
Natalie (41:41):
So it's about also understanding how music impacts
your individual child, butunderstanding that the different
qualities of music can alsoimpact them as well so
physiologically, our bodies willentrain to the beat or tempo of
the song so just like, ifyou're walking up the mall and
(42:01):
you hear a song coming out of ashop, you'll find that your step
will entrain or match the beatof that song.
Dana (42:08):
And that's the idea, basically that our bodies will
want to match that beat but it'skind of going to be not super
close, but it's going to beclose, yeah aligned with it,
yeah, right, and also, like yousay, our mood, so our state of
mind, and where we are, becauseI'm not always going to listen
to the same playlist, you know.
(42:29):
So that's a really great thingfor children to be able to.
You know people use it intransitions bedtimes.
You know their daily routinesand, yeah, that's great.
And not too many happybirthdays if it's not great for
the child.
Natalie (42:48):
And just know what your child needs.
Like if they need headphones orthey need to be out of the room
for that moment because,they're not ready.
Yeah yeah, the best ways towork for that.
Dana (42:57):
Thank you so much for having this chat.
That was great and I you know,like I say, I love music therapy
because I think music is such abig part of our lives and I
know for the children that I'veworked with like they're just
really they love beats, theylove music and it really gets
(43:22):
them into their happy.
Most of the children I workwith gets them into a happy
place.
So thank you, natalie, fortoday and I look forward to
maybe speaking with you in thefuture thanks for having me.
Hi, Natalie Oliveri, Welcome to the Empowered Parent
Podcast.
I'm so excited to have you onthe podcast because you are a
music therapist and musictherapy is very close to my
heart.
I've seen children transformbecause of music therapy and
even learn to speak if they havebeen non-speaking.
(00:24):
So you've got a great,innovative clinic in Adelaide
called Creative Therapy, andright now we are at your clinic
in the consulting room, so ifpeople hear some background
noise, we are live in the clinic.
Before we talk about yourbeautiful, wonderful clinic,
though, I would like to startoff by asking you why and how
(00:47):
did you become a music therapist?
Natalie (00:50):
Oh yes, what a profession.
There's not a day that goes bythat I don't regret becoming a
music therapist.
I had, I guess, a desire to wantto help people.
I went back to uni after beinga journalist and studied music
and just thought what am I doing?
I don't want to be a performer,what am I going to do with this
(01:13):
?
And revisited music therapy,which I had looked at when I was
in year 12 and just thought, ohman, what a pathway that's
going to take a long time for meto get to, to where I want to
be and yeah.
So I kind of took the long roadand applied for the master's
music therapy at MelbourneUniversity, got in and haven't
(01:36):
looked back so.
I haven't had the prerequisitesthat I needed and just sailed on
and became a registered musictherapist.
Dana (01:45):
And so what's your instrument?
I'm a vocalist, right?
So there is such a thing as avocal instrument, yeah.
Natalie (01:58):
I'm such a big advocate for music, for voice as an
instrument.
I get so annoyed when theschool my children go to send
out, oh, instrumental lessonsand voice, and I'm like no voice
is an instrument.
So yeah, it's a beautifulmedium to connect with people.
And even just using the voiceitself can be such a wonderful
(02:24):
meditative and wellbeing toolthat you know I love to teach
people to access, to use fortheir own wellbeing, and it can
be very regulating as well ifyou've got the right voice for
the right environment for theright, situation right and it
could be dysregulating as well,so yeah, very interesting right,
(02:47):
and it could be dysregulated aswell.
Dana (02:49):
So, yeah, very interesting .
Um, lots of families ask mewhat is the difference between a
music therapist?
Natalie (02:54):
and a music teacher.
So a music teacher's job is toteach someone how to make music
uh, music notation, musicianship, even understanding different
genres and styles.
So a music teacher will betrained in the pedagogy of music
, whereas a registered musictherapist will be trained in the
(03:16):
science and the physiologicalimpact of music on our bodies
and brains, and they willunderstand a variety of
different methods and theresearch behind those methods
that mean that music can be aneffective tool in helping
someone's health, functioningand wellbeing.
Dana (03:36):
So if someone's going to music therapy, does that mean
they need to be able to readnotes?
Not at all.
Natalie (03:44):
And that is the most beautiful thing about music
therapy as a tool.
Music as a tool to connect withsomeone within a therapeutic
relationship is just soeffective because it's very,
very rare that you will findsomeone that doesn't have some
sort of connection with music.
Most people have a favouritesong or a favorite genre or a
(04:07):
favorite band, um, or have heardmusic as a child or as an adult
or whatever it is.
Dana (04:14):
Uh, there's always an in with music when you're working
with someone, and I know my mumhad dementia and she well
towards the end of her life andmusic was the thing that really,
you know, brought that gleam inher eyes.
So it really stays with usalmost until the end doesn't it?
Natalie (04:36):
Yeah, music sits really deep From the beginning, from
the beginning.
Dana (04:38):
Yeah, it sits deep in our memory, yeah, and accesses so
many different parts of thebrain.
Natalie (04:44):
Yeah, because babies love music and then the elderly,
they love their music right, weran an early childhood music
session yesterday and I startedmy hello song and there was this
baby who would have been noteven 12 months old, sitting up
bopping along to the music.
In time, and I turned to theother music therapist who was
(05:04):
there with me.
We were just like, yes, science, like that kid's responding to
music in all the ways that theresearch shows it will.
Dana (05:13):
So amazing, yeah, amazing.
So you talked about the scienceof it.
What are the benefits of musicfor children, especially, let's
say, children that are wireddifferently?
Natalie (05:28):
Yeah, so you know so much more understanding of
neurodivergence in our community, in people in our community,
and what I think I can offer interms of an answer is that music
accesses so many differentparts of the brain.
(05:49):
So if people are wireddifferently, the chances are
that, you know, music is goingto access a part of the brain
that that person has a strengthin, and so there was a.
I just want to tell you quicklyabout a study that was done
recently and there was a controlgroup and an experimental group
(06:15):
, and in this group there's allautistic children and in the
control group the children weregiven instructions and in the
experimental group they weresung the instructions and the
children who were sung theinstructions were better able to
perform and execute the tasksthat were requested of them
(06:38):
because it was given to them ina melodic form, and I think that
what that demonstrates is it'saccessing the parts of the brain
that works.
It works for those kids.
The spoken word obviously justdidn't work as well, and that's
really exemplary of how musiccan make such a profound impact.
Dana (06:59):
And like I've read that the left brain is more language
focused and the right brain isall the creativity and the music
.
And I know myself when I'veworked with children they seem
to learn to speak through song,so they're singing faster than
they're speaking.
Do you find that?
Natalie (07:19):
yeah, I mean.
There's plenty of kids that wework with who are autistic, who
you know.
To say a sentence, it's justnot possible for them but they
can sing whole songs and, as amusic therapist, our role is to
find ways that that is useful tothem.
(07:42):
Yes, functional right, yeah,that that is useful to them.
Dana (07:45):
Yes, functional, right, yeah, and I think it's great
when the child has a favouritesong and when we talk about
gestalt learners or holisticlearners and they learn things
in chunks and just to maybetweak one little thing at a time
and they actually accept it andyou think, whoa, that's
fantastic because you canactually use the song to teach
(08:07):
routine, to teach interaction,to teach greeting.
And I know, sometimes we, whenwe're working with children, we
often, we often get intooperettas, because that's the
only way we can communicate withthem, you know, and that's
where the voice is beautiful,because then you don't need any
(08:28):
instrument.
And I always say to familiesdon't worry about the way you
sing, just sing.
And some children don't like it, right, talk to me about that.
Why sometimes mum can't sing tothe child?
The child will put their handson their ears, whereas someone
else could sing to the child.
The child will put their handson their ears whereas someone
else could sing to the child.
(08:49):
Why is that?
Natalie (08:51):
There could be lots of different reasons.
I think one possibleexplanation could be that, you
know, sometimes neurodivergentchildren have a really
incredible attunement to pitch.
So if it's being sung out oftune that could be really like
(09:12):
dysregulating that auditoryinput.
It's just a bit too much itcould be, because it's not
what's expected.
Dana (09:20):
Like mum is mum, and why are you singing?
Natalie (09:23):
Yeah, and also, why are you using that voice?
Dana (09:25):
that's yeah, right right, right, interesting yeah it could
be so many different things.
It's really hard to yeah andjust to keep trying and try
different things.
Natalie (09:37):
Yeah, it could be the quality, the tone, the, the
exact pitch isn't you know.
The pitch of what they'resinging isn't right, but maybe
the frequency is just afrequency, that they don't like.
Yeah, it could be so manydifferent things, and that's
where it's really important towork with the individual child.
Dana (09:53):
Yeah, and that's where I guess music therapists really
understand how to analyse thatpiece over time.
Natalie (10:01):
You know you guys do that and test and try and you
know, ask those questions withthe understanding of all the
different elements of music andmusicality.
Dana (10:09):
That it could be, yeah and what about the children that
love those deep sounding drums?
They want to get in the drum,stand on the drum.
What's that about?
Natalie (10:22):
you know, sensory integration and and that rule,
um, you know what does thischild need and enjoy and like
for?
Um, for regulation could be aform of self-stimulatory
behavior.
Dana (10:38):
Um, yeah, there's lots of different reasons, but that is a
really common yeah, I guess itcould reverberate in their whole
body, you know, and they couldfeel it.
Natalie (10:47):
Yeah, yeah, I've worked with kids who, like their
parents, would take them to a,you know, outdoor music festival
or something and they'll juststand dead in front of the
speaker.
Yes, feel that bass in theirbody.
Yeah, love it.
Dana (10:59):
Yeah, yeah I think that the drums are um a thing in.
I know I could see them in yourclinic and they're definitely.
When I saw them I'm like, yeah,we've got those drums in our
clinic because sometimes they'rethe things that get the
children in right.
Yeah, Some of the things don't.
I've heard people say that theycan't hold a note or a tune or
(11:24):
a tune and are tone deaf.
Is there such a thing, or iseveryone musical?
Natalie (11:32):
I'd like to say that, you know, everyone can sing, and
I don't ever discourage anyonefrom singing because it's such a
beautiful way to make yourselffeel good.
I don't know.
I honestly don't know theanswer to that question.
There's definitely people whofind it hard to perceive, pitch
and understand what's in tuneand what's not.
(11:53):
But I mean, I think most peoplewould be able to listen to a
song and know whether or notit's in tune or not.
Dana (12:01):
Yeah, and maybe as well if people have tried to sing.
It's like I remember at artschool my art teacher said oh,
that's not right, that's wrong.
And then after that I thought Ican't draw, I can't paint.
And you know, we sort of carrythese limiting beliefs with us
and they just get bigger andbigger, because people start
(12:23):
looking at you and you think arethey looking at me because I
can't sing?
Natalie (12:25):
or I see that as something different though
that's more, more, maybe like atraumatic experience.
Dana (12:31):
Yes, yes.
Natalie (12:32):
That's impacted that person's like you said belief in
themselves.
Dana (12:37):
Yes.
Natalie (12:38):
But I think everyone can give it a go.
Dana (12:40):
Yeah, it's more.
Natalie (12:42):
We have this perception in society with all these music
, talent shows and everything.
Oh, that's right when everyonefeels like they can be the judge
of who's good and who's not.
Dana (12:51):
Yes, and in the end.
Natalie (12:52):
you know, if you like doing it Do it, do it.
Dana (12:55):
Yeah, exactly.
Some children are constantlyhumming tunes to themselves or
sounds, while other childrenblock their ears when they hear
music or sounds.
Natalie, can you please speakto this?
Natalie (13:11):
Yeah, again, maybe another example of some stimming
self-stimulatory behaviour.
But there's this beautifullittle case study of a boy that
I've worked with over many yearsnow, and when he first came to
me he was completely avoided ofany kind of music.
I didn't want to be around it.
(13:33):
Music's very much part of thefamily home.
They weren't able to play music, which was really disappointing
for the family, and over time Iwas able to work with this
child to develop his toleranceof music and just out of trial
(13:54):
and error was able to first addvocalizing and then
accompaniment to thevocalization on guitar, and now
that child will tolerate musicbecause over time.
We really worked on it and Idon't know if you've heard this
(14:14):
really common situation thathappens with a lot of autistic
kids who can't express what itis that is having that impact on
them in that moment.
But lots of kids hate the songHappy Birthday yes, they do,
yeah.
Of kids hate the song happybirthday yes, they do, yeah.
And I, my belief is what itcomes down to is it's sudden,
(14:35):
it's incredibly loud and it'susually very off key, and so
we've done a lot of work.
I've done a lot of work for thislittle way to tolerate happy
birthday, because that issomething that, as a family, has
a big impact, because if you goto a family event or a friend's
birthday and you know that yourchild is going to be really
(14:59):
harshly impacted by somethingyou know is going to happen at
that party, whether it be thatthey have a meltdown or that
they just you know can'ttolerate it and need to be out
of the room or you need to gohome because it can be so
impactful.
Um, that that's a reallyimportant thing for family to be
able to, to be able to overcome, and so, uh, we started by
(15:24):
using the song five littlecandles, which I don't know if
you know that one, five littlecandles, straight and tall,
burning brightly, count them all.
Dana (15:34):
I blow with all my might, and now there are four little
candle lights, so we startedwith the cake, not and I'm
throwing out the- candlebeautiful.
Natalie (15:44):
It was a familiar concept, uh, and something that
was enjoyed and something thatwas done together.
Um, and then bridging that intookay, so when someone has a
birthday, what do we do?
We sing a song, we blow out thecandles and what's the song and
we're going to sing the song.
We're going to practicetolerating the song, so I don't
(16:08):
know if that really answers theinitial question, but so many
factors can be at play.
Working with that child's needsand where they're at is so
important, and working to theirstrengths.
So if they are humming, you canuse that in so many ways in
improvisation, in listening,responses, vocalisation, and
(16:32):
then if they're avoidant of thatauditory input, then working to
see how we can increase theircapacity to be able to tolerate
it.
Dana (16:44):
Talk to me.
You mentioned self-stimming.
What is that in your eyes andhow does that play out?
Because I know, um, you know,we're, uh, moving towards
neurofirming language.
So you know, I think we talkedabout the humming and how it can
(17:05):
be is that more likeself-soothing?
Natalie (17:08):
yes, exactly, yeah, yeah, so I'm probably using the
older language in that context,yeah, something that someone
will do that that feels good tothem, that they do to regulate.
Dana (17:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah and I think, um, you know, probably
the one, the kids that arehumming.
Maybe they're also blocking outthings, right, potentially,
because even like we're sittingin this room and I'm talking to
you but I can hear the echo ofmy voice come back, yes, and
sometimes children might notlike that, or the biofeedback.
(17:38):
So, yeah, and I know parents,often I wish you'd be quiet, but
that's not the right way.
I don't think, to sort ofencompass that neurodiversity
and, like you say, it's sobeautiful what you said, natalie
, that use that neurodiversityto engage and interact.
(17:59):
And yeah, it's beautiful,beautiful.
What about if your child likesmusic and you as a parent feel
you cannot sing or are sensitiveto sounds and music yourself?
I know I'm very sensitive inthe evenings Don't talk to me,
put that TV, you know, mute allthe commercials and things like
(18:20):
that.
Is that potentially a mismatchand a problem?
Natalie (18:25):
So if that family were to come to me as a music
therapist?
My job would be to support themto find ways that everyone in
that family can have their needsmet right.
So we would come up withstrategies so that if that child
needed access to music forregulation, that they could have
that access in ways thatweren't impacting other family
members, for example, alsotalking about the use of
(18:47):
headphones, how we can set up adevice, so that music can be
accessed in a way that you knowthat's a great idea.
So you know even something assimple as you give them access
to Spotify Kids and you put iton guided access.
Dana (19:00):
Yeah right.
Natalie (19:01):
So that they can't access YouTube videos or
whatever else, but they canaccess their music or their
playlists that they want with aset of headphones, not impacting
the rest of the family, andthey're getting what they need.
So just talking through thosereally simple strategies which
you know families just have somuch thrown at them.
There's often a lot of stressassociated with having a family
(19:24):
member who might beneurodivergent if there are
other factors at play.
So just being able to talkthrough what those options are,
setting up and creatingplaylists that are appropriate
for the child thinking aboutwhat sort of music is
appropriate to play at certaintimes of the day.
You're not going to want to beplaying, you know, something
(19:47):
that's really going to amp thechild up before bedtime, right,
those sorts of things right,yeah, so you've almost got um a
music menu.
Dana (19:56):
It's like a food menu and you can choose which one you
like.
Natalie (20:01):
You know it's beautiful and there's so much out there,
like with technology, we are sospoiled and there's so many
strategies, ideas, apps and theaccess that we have to music at
the moment is incredible whichcan also be overwhelming as a
music therapist.
Dana (20:17):
But yeah, you just come across kids who just have the
most outlandish taste and you'relike I better go home and
listen to that and figure it out.
What is?
Natalie (20:25):
that k-pop.
So many kids are into k-pop andso, like you know, I can't play
k-pop, I can't speak korean.
Dana (20:33):
So interesting, yeah you know, oh interesting interesting
um, and what about, um, thechildren that uh like to play a
specific segment of a video ormusic track over and, over, and,
over and over again?
What's the purpose of that forthe children?
Natalie (20:54):
so I've had chats with speeches in the past yes, yes it
could be a little bit thatgestalt learning yes, that
holistic learning yeah, learningin chunks again, self-soothing
or trying to, you know, reallyliking something and wanting to
hear it over and over.
You know I've worked with kidswho they'll flick like, they
(21:17):
won't even play a video for asecond.
Dana (21:19):
No.
Natalie (21:19):
And they'll just flick and flick, and flick and flick.
I think that's probably alittle bit to do with
Self-soothing visual stimulation.
Yeah, maybe the device itself.
Okay, those devices are soaddictive, maybe it's like more
just trying to get that in it'slike having a bowl of M&Ms in
front of you and you just keepeating them.
(21:42):
But then I've seen kids who theywill, for example, if they've
got a movie or something ontheir ipad and they'll be able
to find the exact same scene andthey'll play the same scene
over and over.
I don't know, I feel like it'sthat's sort of I guess, a little
bit out of the scope of youknow, music therapy, but yeah, I
(22:03):
see that a lot and you're, Idon't know.
It's a really good question.
Dana (22:07):
I don't know the question sometimes I don't know the
answer either, and that's why Ithought I'd bring it here,
because sometimes I think, is itthat they're trying to figure
it out?
Or they like it so much thatyou know they feel quite
comfortable with it, it makessense to them.
Everything else around thatchunk doesn't make sense.
So I'll stay in my chunk,i'll'll stay on my island, I
(22:28):
don't know like I don't knoweither.
So the other thing we did touchon this as well, but some
children learn to speak throughsongs and music, but not through
typical language stimulation.
Do you find that a lot?
And, you know, is it somethingthat parents need to be looking
(22:55):
more into, like if their childis really, you know, able to
recite all the wiggles or allthese different songs, but are
not speaking?
Is it something that parentsneed to encourage instead of
trying to do language simulationand just going to see the plain
old speech pathologist.
Natalie (23:15):
So this is where I believe collaboration within
teams is just so incrediblyimportant.
In those instances, the inputof a speech pathologist is
invaluable.
A music therapist can neverreplace what a speech
pathologist can do with a childbut, they can make
recommendations and use methodsthat maybe the speech
pathologist isn't aware of, orable to access, yeah, because of
(23:39):
the musical elements.
So there's a branch of musictherapy called neurologic music
therapy and all there's like 20standardized methods and
techniques that are used thatcross, you know, cognitive
skills and motor skills and andspeech, language, communication
skills and there's a particularmethod using mostly in early
(24:01):
childhood, early intervention,called developmental speech and
language through music, andthat's kind of your age old, you
know when, um, you kind of seethose, those videos and leave
the word off the end yes, yesyes, you know, and you're
prompting that speech center ofthe brain to go stars.
(24:22):
Yes, to try and prompt the childyes to utilize the words and
the whole idea behind that andand they are standardised
techniques, they have a lot ofresearch behind them is that
you're accessing differentneural pathways in the brain and
you're able to encourage thatspeech and the you guess the
(24:47):
motor planning and all that yeahto try and get that um outcome
in the child so music.
Therapists are generally trainedin in those areas and they
understand that um speech can beelicited through engagement in
music and obviously there's noone-size-fits-all.
(25:09):
There's certain methods thatcan be used and you know,
sometimes it's a bit of trialand error to see what works for
a certain child.
But definitely thatcollaboration with the speech
therapist is so important.
I'm working at the moment withone and they've put all of our
music therapy activities so I'mworking with a younger child.
So we have a set of activitiesthat we've been doing on the
(25:32):
prolo and what we're working onat the moment is just practicing
those pathways.
Dana (25:39):
Requesting what that child wants to do, and because they
find the activities motivatingthey're motivated to use the
prolo, which is sometimes halfthe battle.
Natalie (25:48):
Yes, yes, so it's yeah it's using music in different
ways to support the person, todevelop whatever area you're
working on, yeah and for thoseof you who don't know what the
prolo is, it's a talking device.
Dana (26:03):
The talker, the talker.
I know, I know, because therewill be some people listening
and they're like I know exactlywhat you mean, natalie but I'm
always thinking about the peoplethat don't know.
So how can music regulate anddysregulate?
Natalie (26:18):
So, yeah like I mentioned before, there can be
triggers and anyone who's had anemotional experience in their
lifetime for example, if you'veattended a funeral or a wedding
you're going to have memoriesassociated with the music
potentially that you've heard.
So dysregulation can occur, Iguess, on an emotional level
(26:44):
where you're triggered by a songbecause maybe it's associated
with a sad memory or happymemory exactly, um.
But then I think there's alsothe the side of it, where it's
like the actual auditorystimulation is just like I
mentioned before, the frequencyisn't right, or it's just they
(27:08):
find it jarring because you knoweveryone's so different and
there's going to be music that Ilike, that you don't absolutely
that's just across the boardwhether you're neurodivergent or
whatever else there's going tobe lots of different aspects and
what you were saying beforeabout music's use in dementia
(27:31):
this is where it's so importantwhere a music therapist is
involved, when music is used indementia care, because music can
be so triggering.
There's already a lot of thingsgoing on cognitively for that
person that has they're.
They might be impaired indifferent ways and so having
(27:54):
that real strong sense andunderstanding for how music can
impact a person while utilizingit, it can be really, really
important I think it would beimportant for even the highly
sensitive kids that have gonethrough a lot of trauma 100%.
You know, so, yeah.
Dana (28:16):
So, Natalie, let's get to the core of this little chat.
I love this practice creativetherapy here in Adelaide.
How did you come to have thisamazing practice, like, how did
you, how did you birth it?
Natalie (28:35):
well, I was working in private practice for a few years
and just there was just a hugedemand for music therapy
services in Adelaide.
I'm a very big advocate formusic therapy.
I'm also the chairperson on mystate committee for the
australian music therapyassociation and there's no
training course for musictherapy here in adelaide, so
(28:59):
it's such a small workforce,like in adelaide there's 30
music therapists here, ascompared with melbourne where
there's like four.
No.
Dana (29:08):
Sydney, and why is there no training here in Adelaide?
Natalie (29:13):
Oh, good question.
We would love for there to beone and as a South Australian
committee and on a nationallevel as well, we're advocating
for another course to be set upsomewhere in Australia and I
would love for that to be here.
But uni mergers and all thesethings that are going on for our
(29:33):
state at the moment might meanthat it might not happen for a
while, if it does happen at all.
But it's definitely somethingI've got my finger on the pulse
with.
There's a training course inMelbourne and one in Sydney.
There used to be one inBrisbane course in Melbourne and
one in Sydney.
(29:53):
There used to be one inBrisbane.
And, yeah, basically there's apretty small cohort of people
from Adelaide that train tobecome music therapists every
year.
There's an option throughMelbourne Uni where they can
access the course onlinepartially and then go there to
Melbourne.
So we probably have two orthree, maybe four, if we're
(30:14):
lucky graduate every year herein Adelaide.
So when I started the practice,it was with every intention of
trying to build the musictherapy workforce here in
Adelaide.
I didn't necessarily want torecruit from Adelaide because I
didn't want to take musictherapists from other positions.
So we have quite a number ofpositions in hospitals here from
Adelaide because I didn't wantto take music therapists from
other positions.
(30:34):
So we have quite a number ofpositions in hospitals here, and
I would have been really sad tosee one of those positions go
unfilled to come here.
So we've actually recruitedthree full-time music therapists
over the course of the lastthree years from Melbourne,
Sydney and Brisbane from.
Melbourne, sydney and Brisbaneand as a private practice.
(30:56):
Working in private practiceprior to opening Creative
Therapy I didn't havenecessarily a lot of support.
I had supervision, but you knowit was quite a lonely space to
work in and I wanted to create ahub where there were multiple
music therapists, where we couldall be here to support one
(31:17):
another and collaborate and beable to grow the profession here
and grow the profile of musictherapy in particular here in.
Adelaide.
So, yeah, it's grown steadilyfrom me and my husband to
there's 11 of us here now, andthat includes five music
(31:40):
therapists, three speechpathologists and our admin team
and what about the NDIS?
Dana (31:47):
are they um friendly to music therapists?
Because I know like a few yearsago it was really difficult.
You had to do evidence-basedand show that that child really
needed music therapy.
How easy is it now for familiesto access music therapy through
the NDIS?
Natalie (32:04):
So the Australian Music Therapy Association is the
registering body of musictherapists across Australia.
So if you are looking for,music therapists, I encourage
you to make sure they areregistered with the Australian
Music Therapy Association.
And not a music teacher and nota music teacher and not a
support worker that uses music.
Dana (32:20):
Yes, all the rest of it yes.
Natalie (32:23):
And they have done an incredible amount of advocacy to
have music therapy recognisedas an evidence-based practice
and profession and if musictherapy has its own line item
within.
Dana (32:35):
The.
Natalie (32:35):
NDIS pricing arrangements.
So, if any, LAC or whoever elsesays to you music therapy is
not something NDIS will fund.
That's completely untrue.
It's actually in the pricingarrangements.
Dana (32:49):
So what if they could just have, like um, their uh allied
health pricing and then theycould take music therapy from
there, just like they takespeech ot whatever?
Natalie (33:00):
capacity building, capacity building, yeah and a
planner can tell you oh, we'regoing to give you funding for
speech therapy and ot andnothing else but in the end.
You have the choice as the planthe person who the plan is for
to say, okay.
Well, you know, I can see we'redoing really well in speech and
ot, but I want to try musictherapy.
(33:21):
We might do ot fortnightly andmusic therapy fortnightly and
see how we go.
So yeah, in the end.
It is up to the discretion ofthe person in how they want to
use their plan and that capacitybuilding funding.
Where you might run into alittle bit of, I guess, bother
is.
We have had people go to theappeals tribunal and they've
(33:45):
come back and said well, musictherapy is a duplication of
supports.
Well, music therapy is aduplication of supports and this
is quite a common thing that wecome across and that might be
because in our NDIS report we'vesaid, okay, we're working on
communication skills and theclient or participants also
accessing speech pathology, andthey're like well, you don't
need both because your speechpathologist is going to work on
(34:07):
communication skills.
So what's really important is toreally understand how music
therapy is going to complementthe other work that you're doing
in your therapy.
Dana (34:18):
So maybe if you're not accessing ot or you can't get
into an ot, you might accessmusic therapy to help with
regulation strategies alongsideyour speech therapy programming
and then you will encourage whatall of your therapists to work
together so that what'shappening in music therapy is
complementing speech and viceversa, and I think that's why
(34:38):
it's so important for familiesto share um, I know you know
people talk about privacy andconfidentiality, but I do think
that's why it's important forfamilies to be transparent with
their therapist, so then thetherapist and the other
supporting team can worktogether to ensure that they're
not working on the samecomponent, because goals can be
(35:04):
split up into differentcomponents.
So communication is very broadand, like you say, you can work
on regulation or interactionwith communication, while the
speech pathologist could beworking on comprehension and
social.
So or vice versa.
Natalie (35:19):
So that's so important as well, to give your therapist
time to write the report.
Dana (35:23):
Yes, and chat to each other before the report.
Natalie (35:25):
Yes, definitely you can do those cross recommendations
Definitely, definitely,definitely, yes, definitely, so
that you can do those crossrecommendations as well.
Dana (35:29):
Definitely, definitely, definitely so, natalie.
What type of clients do youwork with?
Natalie (35:37):
So I personally love working with the little ones.
I love working in earlychildhood, from, you know, birth
to five.
That's my jam.
And I love working with adultswith intellectual disability and
with teenagers.
So they're the sort of threemain areas and that's so broad.
Dana (35:57):
There's so much repertoire made it easy for myself.
Yeah, there's three differentareas.
Natalie (36:04):
Um.
So yeah, part of it is that Ijust love building those
relationships with the families,particularly in early childhood
, where maybe they're juststarting their journey of
comprehension of what'shappening what the child needs
and just having that knowledgebase to support them through,
(36:27):
you know, going and startingschool, that can be.
You know that's huge,especially in South Australia's
system.
It's pretty complex andsometimes seems a little unfair.
Dana (36:39):
Yeah, and do you guys have a wait list?
Natalie (36:43):
Well, it depends on the times and the days.
Dana (36:47):
Yes.
Natalie (36:48):
We've got some pretty good availability.
We've just brought on Luke,who's moved here from Brizzy um,
and he's an absolute champion,and so we've got a team of five
music therapists and as you knowpeople's plans change, people's
um, I guess, ability to committo things change.
So it's a pretty steady flow.
(37:09):
We kind of have a pretty goodflow of being able to provide a
service within a good time frame.
Dana (37:15):
That's great, and you do home home visits and clinic
school yeah so clinic andtelehealth as well.
Yeah, great, great, um, andwhat I'll do.
I will put your contact detailsin the notes below so parents
can contact.
I just want to ask what does ittake to become a music
(37:37):
therapist?
Like do you have to have amusic degree?
Or like how yeah, you do, soyou've got to go and get a music
degree, is that?
Natalie (37:44):
right, yeah, so Melbourne Uni has become a
little bit.
Not that they've become morelenient, but they do recognize
really high level skills withoutthe piece of paper so you need
to be able to read music.
Um you know, understand how toplay complex pieces on your main
instrument so I think the levelthat they expect is about an
(38:07):
ameb australian musiciansexamination board level seven
wow seven um, so I have adiploma in classical voice so
that's my um in my, in yes yeah,uh, but you know, roland, on
our team, kuhn and reena andluke have all done bachelor of
music in their chosen instrument.
(38:29):
So Rowan's a saxophonist but canplay guitar piano you know sing
as well so yeah, you need to bea really highly skilled
musician and then go on and getyour master's in music therapy.
Dana (38:40):
Because I can imagine some people listening will go oh, I
want to become a music therapist.
But you do need to do somebackground work before you just
go and do your music therapydegree and we're a big training
ground.
Natalie (38:52):
here we take a lot of the Masters Music Therapy
students that go through fromAdelaide, but we do occasionally
take observation students aswell, people who are really
seriously committed to studyingand pursuing.
Dana (39:04):
That's great, because people can come and see before
they commit to the long road.
Right, yes, right, people cancome and see before they commit
to the long road.
Yes, right, okay.
So wrapping up, natalie, whatare three recommendations you
could give to parents toincorporate music into their
child's daily routines?
Natalie (39:24):
Oh, I love this.
Okay, so music can be abeautiful way to encourage
transitions.
I love using music as a cue, soyou might use the same song at
the same time every day to cuefor teeth brushing, for example,
and you might use music as away to encourage pack away time.
(39:50):
So, there's a really great songby Sing and Grow Australia
which sounds a bit like a dancetechno track and it's so
motivating.
Like every time I hear it I'mlike do, do, do, do, and that's
a really wonderful way to helpkids pack away.
Get motivated Into the mood topack away as well, um, someone
(40:13):
told me this really funnyanecdote one day, where um they,
whenever they heard the um homeand away theme song yes, they
knew it was time to get ready togo to bed.
Dana (40:23):
Yeah, right, it's like seven o'clock, yeah, right how
funny is that?
Natalie (40:26):
so using I can understand that.
Yeah, I can understand.
Using music as a cue is areally lovely way to incorporate
music into your daily routine.
Music at night time is veryindividual, but generally, if
you are looking for music toplay to a child to help cue them
(40:48):
for sleep, you're looking atsomething around your 60 beats
per minute, which is yourresting heart rate.
That being said, if they'realready bouncing off the walls,
then putting on music at 60beats per minute isn't going to
be helpful.
Dana (41:02):
No, it's probably not going to work.
Natalie (41:04):
No, so we've actually got a really great blog on our
website about using music formood and regulation.
So the that explains how you'regoing to play music that meets
someone where they're at andthen gradually reduce the tempo
and the quality of the musicinto something more relaxing.
So you might, if you and I werelike dancing, do like dancing
(41:28):
music, and then we might put onsomething that's just a little
bit slower and then a little bitslower after that, until
eventually, maybe we're goinghome, yeah, and then we're going
.
Dana (41:37):
Oh, I want to go to bed now.
Good night, yeah right.
Natalie (41:41):
So it's about also understanding how music impacts
your individual child, butunderstanding that the different
qualities of music can alsoimpact them as well so
physiologically, our bodies willentrain to the beat or tempo of
the song so just like, ifyou're walking up the mall and
(42:01):
you hear a song coming out of ashop, you'll find that your step
will entrain or match the beatof that song.
Dana (42:08):
And that's the idea, basically that our bodies will
want to match that beat but it'skind of going to be not super
close, but it's going to beclose, yeah aligned with it,
yeah, right, and also, like yousay, our mood, so our state of
mind, and where we are, becauseI'm not always going to listen
to the same playlist, you know.
(42:29):
So that's a really great thingfor children to be able to.
You know people use it intransitions bedtimes.
You know their daily routinesand, yeah, that's great.
And not too many happybirthdays if it's not great for
the child.
Natalie (42:48):
And just know what your child needs.
Like if they need headphones orthey need to be out of the room
for that moment because,they're not ready.
Yeah yeah, the best ways towork for that.
Dana (42:57):
Thank you so much for having this chat.
That was great and I you know,like I say, I love music therapy
because I think music is such abig part of our lives and I
know for the children that I'veworked with like they're just
really they love beats, theylove music and it really gets
(43:22):
them into their happy.
Most of the children I workwith gets them into a happy
place.
So thank you, natalie, fortoday and I look forward to
maybe speaking with you in thefuture thanks for having me.
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