Ever wondered how embracing neurodiversity can transform family life? Join us as we welcome Rebecca Challoner, the incredible founder of My Spirited Child and co-founder of PEKE Centres. Rebecca shares her powerful journey from a neurodivergent teacher to a devoted advocate for neurodivergent individuals and their families. Through her own experiences with ADHD and dyslexia, as well as raising neurodivergent children, she underscores the importance of affirming environments that celebrate strengths instead of aiming to 'cure' differences. Rebecca's initiatives have revolutionized market standards for neurodiversity-affirming practices, marking a critical shift from a medical to a social model of understanding neurodivergence.
https://www.myspiritedchild.com/; https://www.pekecentre.com.au/
danabaltutis.com, mytherapyhouse.com.au, https://mytherapyhouse.com.au/your-childs-therapy-journey/ https://www.danabaltutis.com/services
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Episode Transcript
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Dana Baltutis (00:05):
Hi, R rebecca Challoner, welcome to the
Empowered Parent Podcast.
I'm so excited to have you onthe podcast today because you
are the founder of my SpiritedChild, a wonderful organization
that does so much for theneurodivergent community, their
(00:26):
families, carers andprofessionals in Australia and
beyond.
You are also the co-founder ofPEKE Centers, which started in
Victoria when I Googled, becauseI'm in South Australia which
provide customized supportacross the lifespan, from
diagnosis to strength-basedtherapies and family supports,
(00:49):
specialising in autism, adhd,anxiety, sensory challenges and
regulation support.
On your website, I've read thatyou are neurodivergent yourself
, as are your two children.
I'm really, really keen tospeak to you today because I
view you as an empowered parentwho started helping not only
(01:13):
yourself and your children, buta whole community.
So welcome, R rebecca.
Thank you.
Rebecca Challoner (01:21):
Thank you for having me.
Dana Baltutis (01:22):
So, R rebecca, could you please share with the
listeners today a little bitabout your background and how
and why my Spirited Child andthe PEKE Centres came to be?
Rebecca Challoner (01:37):
Yeah, so I myself am ADHD, as you pointed
out, and dyslexic.
My kids are both ADHD and myoldest son also has an
intellectual disability um aboutit kind of all.
My journey probably started 25years ago when I started working
as a teacher to children, um,who were neurodivergent at the
(01:58):
time and that's kind of.
That was long before I had anykids and long before I knew I
was neurodivergent and that sortof started my passion, I
suppose.
Then, when I had my eldest sonand sort of had to grow my own
knowledge and to be able tosupport him, what I found was it
was really difficult to getknowledge and to get information
(02:23):
that was accurate and easy tofind, and so, based on that, I
started my Spirited Child.
At the time it was just a blogthis was 10 years ago as
something to just get thatinformation to other parents who
, like me, were just desperateto find accurate information in
an easy, easy way.
And from the blog it just grewand it grew to the events and
(02:46):
the resources and things.
And then with the Peke Centresmyself and Christina Keeble, who
is my other co-founder we asparents we were just sick of
taking our kids to places wherethey were treated like there was
something wrong with them andthey needed to be
cured.
And they went in and you alwayscome out feeling really, um,
(03:10):
just rubbish about your kids,you know, and their futures.
And we wanted to createsomewhere that was truly
affirming, where, when ourchildren went in the, the vibe
was absolutely nothing wrongwith you, you're perfect.
You're perfect exactly as youare.
Yes, we're going to help youwith the things that you're
struggling with Like it might beanxiety.
(03:32):
We're going to help you withyour mental health, whatever you
need, but it's what you need,not what society needs.
And when you leave here, you'regoing to walk out feeling great
about yourself and so that'syeah.
That was, I guess, why wecreated that one self, and so
that's yeah, that was, I guess,why we created that one.
So it's kind of all about.
Both of them are about sort ofhelping the neurodivergent
community just feel better, knowbetter and just generally do
(03:53):
better oh, I love that.
Dana Baltutis (03:55):
I love that and the name peak p-e-k-e for the
listeners um to where, if theywant Google?
Where did that come from?
Rebecca Challoner (04:06):
So at the time this was before I got
married, so my surname wasPerkins, so it was literally
just the first two letters of mysurname and the first two
letters of Christina's surnameP-E for Perkins and K-E for
Keeble.
Excuse me, though, Okay.
Dana Baltutis (04:22):
He's going.
Yes, I love that name, I lovethat name.
Rebecca Challoner (04:25):
And it was a bit of a double, a double
meaning, because it was oursurnames but also we would.
It was sort of the, the thoughtof people helping people to
reach their peak and just be thebest that they can be and how
many people now use your centresor have used your centres Like?
Dana Baltutis (04:44):
is it in the hundreds?
Is it in the thousands?
What are we looking at?
Because it was only established.
What was it?
2021?
Is that right?
Rebecca Challoner (04:52):
Yes, so three years ago we started the first
one and then in Melbourne's east, in Cranbourne, and then the
second one in Werribee.
We started 12 months ago.
Um, and that one, um, yeah, theboth of them are doing really
well.
Um, I'd say probably hundredsat this point because we've only
(05:14):
got the two.
So, yeah, probably hundreds ofpeople.
But I think the the biggerpicture for both of them is not
so much the clients that comedirectly to them, but the, the
position it puts the market in.
Um and I think with when we setup peak um, neurodiversity
affirming practice was onlyreally just getting talked about
(05:37):
and it certainly wasn't beingdone very well by many people,
and I think what we wanted to dowas set a standard across the
market.
So it wasn't so much just aboutus doing it.
We wanted to get as many othertherapy centers doing it as well
, and we also wanted to send avery clear message to any
therapy centers that were doingthe opposite to say that's not
(05:59):
okay.
It's not okay to do unaffirmingpractices.
It's not okay to do unaffirmingpractices.
It's not okay to do some ofthese really negative treatments
with kids that just do theopposite and have this sort of
persona of trying to cure kidswhen they don't need.
That's not what they need.
Dana Baltutis (06:21):
And do you work with parents of these children?
Like, what work do you do withthe parents?
Because sometimes it's themindset, right, because our
society is still very much um,it's moving more to a social
model, but it's very much amedical model, because that's,
the diagnosis comes from themedical uh institutions and then
(06:44):
the parents sort of carry thatand want to fix or cure right.
I've seen that a lot, yeahabsolutely.
Rebecca Challoner (06:51):
So, yeah, a lot of it is, whether it be
myself or Christina or whetherit be the therapists themselves.
RThere's a lot of parent
education going along all theway through the journey.
We also because Christina and Iobviously we both do a lot of
public speaking and we both do alot of events and PDs and that
sort of thing we're kind ofconstantly mixing the two to try
(07:15):
and get that message out there.
I think it's really reallyimportant that parents,
educators, professionals, allbegin to understand that that
mental health is.
It is explicitly tied toachievements, and when we say to
a kid, you're not good enoughand you need to be fixed, that
(07:36):
affects their mental health,which will always impact their
achievements.
So we're not we think we'rehelping them.
We're not.
When we, when we're tellingthem they need to be fixed and
cured and changed, we're nothelping them.
Um, so so.
So getting people to adjusttheir thinking, to understand
the importance of the socialmodel and the importance of
(08:00):
neuroaffirming practice and how,how accepting a kid for who
they are is absolutelyinherently important to
someone's self-esteem and mentalhealth.
Dana Baltutis (08:12):
And I also find, when I'm working with parents
and they are focusing on thechild changing and I believe you
know, I know that perception isprojection it's often the
parents have got the pain andthe healing that they need to do
within themselves to be able toaccept themselves and then
accept the child.
(08:33):
Do you find that, rebecca?
Rebecca Challoner (08:36):
Absolutely, and a lot of the time, and it's
hard.
I think it's hard for parents.
I think when we we we as adultswe were raised in a very
different environment wheremental health wasn't top of the
priority list or even midway upthe priority list, you know, and
help and children needed to beseen and not heard, and they
(08:58):
needed to just do as they weretold and um, and if a child did
something wrong it was becausethey were naughty, never mind
what might be going on for thatchild.
And and we, when we were raisedlike that, that becomes a core
part of who we are, because itwas what was taught to us in our
developmental period.
So for a lot of parentssometimes the knowing how to
(09:23):
change the way they're doingthings with the kids isn't
actually enough.
They know it, but being able todo it and put it into action is
really difficult.
It's a you know, it's a skill.
It takes years of practice.
Dana Baltutis (09:35):
And there's all the.
There's that whole new movementthat's out now.
It's been out for a while, butI think it's becoming more and
more popular.
Rebecca Challoner (09:43):
Conscious parenting, empowered parenting
do you guys use those terms atthe peak centers um we well, we
don't really use the term, thoseterms I suppose we do to a
point, but we more just talkabout um, be, you know, um, we
more talk about sort ofrelationship-based approaches,
(10:04):
connection-based approaches.
It's the same thing.
But yeah, we talk a lot aboutthe relational approach to
parenting and moving away frombehaviourism.
I myself, one of the things Ido a lot when I'm working with
parents, one-to-one or on a bigscale, is focus on um, how and
(10:26):
why relational approaches toparenting are so, so, very
important.
Because when, when we usebehaviorism, it's, you know,
theoretically, on paper, itworks, because kids will do what
they are told to do out of fearof the consequence.
But but yes, it works in theshort term.
(10:50):
But what you create is an adultwho is compliant and doesn't
know their own mind and can'tadvocate for themselves.
And, and you know, I think a lotof parents think that they want
children who comply and alwaysdo as they're told and everyone
goes, oh, isn't your child wellbehaved?
Parents think they want that,but what parents often don't
(11:12):
think about is what the theconsequence of that is when they
have an adult child, when theirchild is an adult, you know,
and they can't advocate forthemselves and they don't know
how to say no because they'vealways been told don't you say
no to me.
And they don't know how to sayno because they've always been
told don't you say no to me.
And they don't know how tostand up for themselves or have
self esteem, or have selfconfidence or know their own
(11:32):
worth or any of these things.
And we start to sort of realisethen that we actually probably
do want the child who's a littlebit, you know, who pushes
boundaries, and we want thechild who, who will, um, argue
or debate for themselves andadvocate for themselves, and we
want the child who sometimeswill, will say no to you.
You know it's hard as a parentto have a child say no, but we
(11:55):
want them to say no because weit's a very important skill that
we need to teach them.
So I think, um, I think for alot of parents, I think learning
that different approach andit's not all about do as you're
told or else you know I thinkthat's really important.
Dana Baltutis (12:12):
And also, I think the child's building their or
forming their identity right,creating their identity and who
they are in the world, as wellas boundaries, you know, and I
think that's so important,because then we say, oh, that
child's got very big, you knowopen boundaries or no boundaries
(12:33):
or constricted boundaries, soyou know that's all part of them
knowing where they end, wherethe world begins, and what they
like, what they don't like.
So, yeah, that's pretty amazing.
So you said you were aschoolteacher, is that right?
Rebecca Challoner (12:48):
Yeah, a long time ago, right.
Dana Baltutis (12:50):
So talk to me about how your peak centres and
then their schools becauseschools we're still not so much.
We are moving.
The schools are moving towardsthe relational model more and
more.
However, children do still havea place and they're seen but
not heard in the school system.
(13:12):
How do you advocate for that?
How do you advocate for thekids when you're interfacing
schools?
Because there are some reallyreally good schools but there
are still some children thathave had like real huge traumas
attending schools.
Rebecca Challoner (13:28):
Yeah, I think schooling is a big problem big
problem not just in this country, but globally.
I think I'm a big believer inthe education system needs to be
completely reinvented from theground up.
And one of the biggest problemsis, like I do, a lot of pds in
schools and I can walk into.
(13:48):
I've walked into some amazingschools where the teachers and
the principals of the school areso dedicated to you know I can
say you need to do this, thisand this and it's going to cost
them a ton of money and theyjust go.
Not a problem, it's done.
You know brilliant schools, butthe fact is, even in the best
schools that I've seen, they'restill working on.
(14:10):
They still are found.
Their foundations lie inbehaviorism.
That you know it's still.
The teacher is still miss suchand such and the kid is still
that's their first name and thekid they're still very strong.
You know there's no.
I always say connection andrelationships is the foundation
(14:31):
of a child feeling good aboutthemselves.
But you can't connect with achild if you're here and they're
there.
You cannot truly connect andthe basis of all school
foundations is that the teacheris here and the child is here,
and so, as great as someteachers are.
They're amazing.
The true connection, that trueconnection where a child really
(14:53):
does feel empowered and andtruly on the same level, cannot
be there in the school system asit stands.
Um, there are a few privateschools that are doing better,
because they're kind of doingthat, running by their own rules
a little bit, but not many, andI think there's a long way to
go before the school systemtruly starts treating kids how
(15:16):
they should be kids.
I also think that school anxietyI hear more, I get more emails
and messages from parents aboutschool anxiety than I do about
anything else it's the numberone thing that I get asked about
.
It is a massive problem.
I think these poor kids and,unfortunately, most parents,
(15:40):
just don't know what to do.
They don't know because becausetheir child is, you know,
really struggling with attendingschool.
But the, the, the school often,and and society and the
government all sort of say tothe parent you go, get your kid
in school, no matter what, getthem into school.
And so the parent feels thisunbelievable pressure to go
(16:01):
against their instincts whichsays my kid needs to be not at
school right now and push themin, and that's a big problem
that we have at the moment.
Dana Baltutis (16:11):
Yeah, it's a big topic, isn't it?
It's a big topic and, like yousay, it goes to many levels.
You know, it's not the teachers, it's not the principals, it's
the government, it's society and, like you say, it's worldwide.
It's not the principals, it's,it's the government, it's
society, it's and, like you say,it's worldwide.
(16:32):
It's not just here in Australia.
Yeah, so, uh, rebecca, you area neurodivergent parent.
What are your superpowers,besides my spirited child,
besides the peak centers,besides being a public speaker
and an educator?
What are your superpowers, doyou feel?
Rebecca Challoner (16:47):
um.
So I think, probably, um, Ithink I have two.
I think I have two superpowers,if you will, and I think both
of them are ADHD related.
One would be, um, like allADHDs, I'm extremely intuitive,
so when my kids are feeling, orquite often, other people's kids
, I sense it.
(17:07):
I think being highly intuitiveis really helpful when you're a
parent, I think.
The other one, which is, itcould be a superpower or it
could be the worst thing tohappen to someone.
It's a bit of both.
Both is because, um, like manyADHDers, I have the really
(17:28):
extreme case of rejection,sensitive dysphoria.
The way, the way I deal withthat is that I, um, I tend to
overachieve, so I become, I'vebecome this massive
perfectionist and this massiveoverachiever which um is.
I think if I was put in frontof a psychologist or a
psychiatrist, they'd probably go.
(17:48):
Probably not a good thing, butit is the reason I've achieved
everything.
I've achieved, um, so it's it.
I'd say it's the worst thingand the best thing rolled into
one um yeah, so you said umrejection, sensitive dysphoria.
Dana Baltutis (18:03):
Can you just explain that to the listeners a
little bit?
Unpack that.
Rebecca Challoner (18:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
You'll have to excuse my dogbarking, that's okay.
Dana Baltutis (18:12):
He has a really good time.
He wants to be on the podcastas well.
Rebecca Challoner (18:17):
There's two of them, two dogs and somebody's
obviously walking near thehouse.
Anyway, I'll stop in a secondnear the house.
Anyway, I'll stop in a second.
Um.
So, um, rejection, sensitivedysphoria, is a thing that
affects um a huge number of adhdis it does affect other people
who want adhd, but, but a lot ofadhd really struggle with it,
(18:37):
and what it is is it's like areally extreme reaction to um
failure or criticism, and I'dsay it's a very physiological
reaction.
So when we feel like we'refailing or we feel like we're
being criticized, we we feel it.
It's, it's painful, um, and anda lot of people will say, oh
(18:59):
well, nobody likes beingcriticized.
You know, and that's true, noone does like being criticized.
But for an ADHDer who struggleswith rejection sensitivity,
it's much more than a dislike.
It's very physically painful.
And because we have this fear offailure, this fear of criticism
, this fear, it's a fear ofjudgment.
(19:20):
Because we have that, it meansthat we naturally put certain
things into place, um,subconsciously for ourselves, to
protect ourselves against that.
One of those things, which isthe one I tend to do, is we
become perfectionists.
We have to win, we have tooverachieve.
We cannot lose at any cost.
(19:40):
Um, sometimes we may become likeunderachievers.
We may because we, we justdon't try, because if we don't
try we can't fail.
So we just give up and don'ttry at all.
We may.
Often, for ADHDs, they may lieor become defensive because to
get away from the risk ofanything being their fault, or
(20:05):
I'm trying to think, well,there's another one, I've missed
one, I can't think what it is.
Anyway, there's all thesethings that we do, these sort of
subconscious strategies that weput in place to protect
ourselves from the pain ofrejection sensitivity.
And I think for ADHDers,rejection sensitivity and I
think for ADHD is rejectionsensitivity as far as probably
(20:26):
the most harmful ADHDcharacteristic.
But, as I said, for me, yes,it's, it's, you know, it's
probably not the best for goodmental health, but it's the
thing that has, without a doubt,driven a lot of my success.
So, yeah, and has made theseamazing uh organizations for
(20:47):
other people and the communityright yeah, yeah, well, and and
I think, um, if you look at themost successful people in the
world, you know they're reallybig billionaires and people
running huge foundations.
A lot of them are adhd and Ithink the reason that happens is
partly because of this need to.
You know, this perfectionism,this overachievement, and also
(21:10):
they're very intuitive andbecause of it, they become very
ambitious.
So what you end up with issomeone who's really ambitious.
Adhd is very good athyperfocusing, so they can
hyperfocus on the things they'rereally passionate about.
They're ambitious, they're'rehyper focused, they're really
intuitive to what people needand you know, when you mix all
(21:32):
that into a, into a melting pottogether, you end up with,
oftentimes, really successfulpeople, um, so so I think adhd
is have have.
When they're supported and whenthey have people really help
them grow and help them buildthat self-esteem and that
confidence in themselves, youknow they can achieve the world.
(21:54):
It becomes quite incredible.
Dana Baltutis (21:57):
How did you find out all of this information,
rebecca, about yourself.
You know someone might belistening, listening, there
could be parents listening andthey're like, oh, this resonates
with me, but how do I know?
Who do I go to?
How did I, how did she, howdoes she know all this?
Rebecca Challoner (22:13):
um, years and years and years of research.
Um, I'm in a very fortunateposition because not only am I
ADHD, but my kids are both ADHDmy husband's ADHD.
I also work, obviously, in theindustry and I've been
researching it for years, soit's just a combination of tons
(22:34):
and tons of research, meetingand speaking with tons and
thousands of other people,whilst being able to intuitively
look and understand my kids,and I'm very good at self
understand my kids and I'm verygood at self-reflection, so I'm
very good at understanding wherethings are coming from in
myself, and I think that puts mein a really useful position to
(22:57):
be able to understand it at asort of probably a slightly
higher level than if I was justreading it.
You know.
Dana Baltutis (23:04):
Yeah, that's great.
So, rebecca, what are thechallenges you encounter as a
neurodivergent parent on a dailybasis and how do you overcome
them?
Just, you know little thingsevery day.
Rebecca Challoner (23:18):
Well, the biggest challenge, without a
doubt, is my youngest kid hasthe exact same ADHD challenges
as what I do, or very similar,and he struggles with the
emotional dysregulation.
I also struggle, struggle withemotional dysregulation.
Now the problem with that iswhen the two happen at the same
time.
(23:38):
If I'm having, I call it, a badadhd day, if I'm having a bad
adhd day and he's also having abad adhd day, which means his
behavior most 99% of the timeI'm I can do great and I do it
all right and I support him andbrilliant.
But every so often if I'mhaving a really high anxiety day
(24:00):
, I find that very difficult andit him having to go at me
triggers my rejection, sensitivedysphoria, and then we, and
then I don't deal with it.
Well, that 10, that's probablythe thing I find.
Uh, I'm all deal with it.
Well, that's probably the thingI find.
I'm all right with it now.
But that was the biggestchallenge I had to overcome as a
parent was learning how tocontrol my own dysregulation to
(24:29):
help my child with his.
That was.
It took probably three or fouryears of really high intensity
focus on that to try and developthat skill.
Um, the other thing, the otherthing that's a big, big
challenge for me is I strugglewith auditory sensory challenges
, because a lot of ADHD isstruggle with sensory sensory
processing.
Mine is auditory and my eldestson, who also has an
(24:54):
intellectual disability, he willoften make a lot of noises.
He has a lot of stims and hemakes a lot of noise and some of
them are very loud and some ofthem are very ongoing.
And he also does this beautifulthing which is also
anxiety-inducing for me, whichis he'll say mum.
(25:16):
At the start, in the middle andat the end of every single
sentence he says so, it's mum.
Can I mum have this mumEverything, every single
sentence, and by the end of somedays, especially if I'm having
a high-anxiety day, I find thatquite over.
That's a challenge.
Dana Baltutis (25:34):
How do you overcome that?
Like, are there things you doto ground yourself?
Or you know, like, becausesometimes I've heard parents
just say well, I just, you know,ignore that little piece, or
I'm more within myself.
Do you do anything like that,rebecca?
I am?
Rebecca Challoner (25:53):
So I'm phenomenally self-disciplined
when it comes to my kids.
So I am a big believer and Iknow that not everyone believes
this, but I believe that when Ihad kids, for me that became my
number one job, and so my needscome second to their needs,
which means that when he's doingthat especially, he does it
(26:14):
more.
When he's anxious even if I'manxious, I gotta I just gotta
deal with it.
So I will, um, almost do theopposite of what I tell people
to do, which is mask the crapout of myself to make sure that
he doesn't see that his, hisnoises or his words are in any
way inducing anxiety in me.
(26:36):
Um, if it's worst case scenario,I'll tag team with my husband.
We're pretty good, and if oneof the kids is really like if
one of us is having a bad a bitof a bad adhd day and we need a
bit of a rest, the other onewill tap.
We'll tap each other out andthen I'll get to go to the
bedroom and he'll just go oh,let me deal with you sort of
thing to the kids.
So we, we will tag team alittle bit, and I think that for
(27:00):
people who have got asupportive partner, that tapping
each other out when, when, whenit's needed, I think is very
helpful.
That's probably the best toolthat we have, I think.
Dana Baltutis (27:10):
How did you, how did you know that you and
neurodivergent, how did you findthat?
Find out like, did it just cometo you one day, or you always
had that feeling.
Or when you saw your kids, yousaw part, parts of yourself in
them.
How did?
Rebecca Challoner (27:24):
you?
Um, well, it was interestingbecause I didn't know I was um
neurodivergent until I was in my30s.
Um and I, and and it was justthrough all the research and
work I was doing to help otherpeople and to help my kids, I
just the more.
Very quickly I sort of justbecame aware that that that was
me.
Um, like most adhd is.
(27:45):
It took years of before Iactually went and got a
diagnosis.
After I knew I was clearly adhdum dyslexia.
I got diagnosed at universitywith dyslexia.
One of my lecturers picked itup but the ADHD.
And when I got that diagnosisit was the most self-esteem
building thing I've ever done inmy life.
(28:06):
All of a sudden, I'd grown upfeeling like I was a bit
annoying or feeling like I was abit too much for people, and
that always affected myself-esteem.
And when I got that diagnosis,all of a sudden there was a
reason for that and it wasn'tjust and I wasn't a bit annoying
and it wasn't about me being abit too much for people, and
(28:29):
that was the most affirmingthing I've ever done.
And when people ask me do youthink I should get a diagnosis?
I don't really need one, what?
What good is it going to do?
That's what good it's going todo.
It's going to empower you and Ithink, yeah, getting that
diagnosis was just the bestthing I ever did.
Dana Baltutis (28:45):
Great and talk to me about ADHD, for people who
don't really know what it is.
What is ADHD?
And I've seen, like on socialmedia, that people talk about
different types of ADHD.
Is that a thing?
Rebecca Challoner (28:59):
Yeah, so ADHD is.
It's, you know, much likeautism.
It's a spectrum.
So ADHD is the neurodivergentcondition where our brains work
a little bit differently throughdifferent ways and I won't go
too much into the neuroscienceof it right now because it might
get a bit too much for people,um, but essentially our brain
(29:20):
works differently, um, due to avariety of factors and and
because of the way an ADHD brainworks, there's loads and loads
of different characteristics ofADHD, but each person can sit
differently on that spectrum.
So, for example, a lot ofADHDers not all, but a lot will
(29:40):
struggle with sensory processing, but for some it might be
auditory sensory, like me.
For another person they mightbe fine with auditory sensory
processing but struggle withtactile sensory processing or
visual sensory processingthere's loads of.
I mean, essentially, adhd isalways characterised by the
distractibility side of things.
(30:02):
The title, the name ADHD, isvery misleading to people
because we don't have anattention deficit.
We have a variable attention,our attention.
We can pay very good attentionto things that interest us it's
interest-based.
We can't pay attention tothings that don't.
Not all ADHD is a hyperactive,so it's a mixture of a lot of
(30:29):
things.
So if I was to pinpointsomeone's ADHD on a spectrum,
for example.
If I was to take that spectrumand then sort of mark it out how
someone struggles, what I'd seeis everybody would be different
.
Every ADHD would be different.
But an ADHD would be differentto a neurotypical person because
a neurotypical person wouldn'tstruggle with most of the ADHD
(30:52):
things, whereas an ADHD willstruggle with, which they'll
have more things they strugglewith than they don't.
On that list, if that makessense, but there's a lot.
There's about 150characteristics of ADHD.
Dana Baltutis (31:05):
So, wow, there's a lot of things that could be
going on there wow, and let'stalk medication, because I know
there's I know some familiesI've worked with and the doctors
have suggested medication.
The families are veryanti-medication.
They're worried that theirchild's going to be a zombie.
(31:25):
Can you talk to that a bit,rebecca, please?
Rebecca Challoner (31:28):
Absolutely, I mean the first thing to say is
is ADHD, as well as is the mostcommon neurological condition in
existence.
But as well as being super,super common, unfortunately it
also comes with the mostmisunderstandings and the most
stigma and the anti-medicationideology I guess around.
(31:50):
Adhd is often a result of thestigma, which is really sad,
because if a child had epilepsyand they had to be medicated for
that, we wouldn't think twice.
Or diabetes or any otheranything else.
Actually, it's only with ADHDthat parents kind of and it's
because of society.
You know, I did it myself.
(32:10):
I remember when my eldest,who's now 18, was very young and
the first doctor he sawsuggested medication and my
first reaction was no, but Iwouldn't have said that in a
million years if it had beenepilepsy, it was.
It's purely around societalstigma that that comes from adhd
meds.
Although not everybody needs.
(32:32):
I'm not medicated.
So I can first of all say youknow I'm not medicated, but
everybody else in my householdis I'm the only one who isn't um
, and and I think ADHD meds areabsolutely, when you get the
right one, can be life-changingmy, my family, everyone in my
family.
If you were to take theirmedication away from them today,
their lives would wouldcollapse.
(32:54):
It's been completelylife-changing, um, and I think I
think the the two problems withadhd meds one is the stigma.
The other problem is becausethere are a variety of different
ones and there are differentones for a reason it's.
It's so that we can find theright one to suit each person,
(33:14):
but when people try the wrongone first, one that doesn't suit
them, it gives them this oh mygod, my child's going to be a
zombie because that person'schild was a zombie when they
took it and in actual fact, theyjust needed to try a different
one.
Um, my, my youngest son, he,when he first went onto
(33:34):
medication the first one hetried he became very, very um,
dysregulated, very angry.
It really had quite an extremeeffect on his emotions, but we
moved him off that and moved himonto a different one and then
he was brilliant and it was theabsolutely hands down the best
thing we ever did.
It's really really helped him,you know, feel himself and be
(33:56):
himself.
It hasn't changed hispersonality in any way.
It just allows him to focus andit allows him to not feel so
dysregulated.
So I'm I'm a big, even thoughI'm not medicated.
I'm actually a big fan ofmedication.
I think adhd meds are um one ofthe most, I think, the most
(34:16):
effective medication for anyneurological condition on the
planet.
They are, without a doubt, oneof the most tested medications
and, yeah, I think every timeI've met a parent who doesn't
want to medicate it, always whenyou investigate further, it
always comes down to their um,that stigma and things they've
(34:40):
heard on the grapevine um andworries and the worries are
always based on that stigma thatthey've encountered and I do.
Dana Baltutis (34:47):
I agree, rebecca.
I think it's also historicaland stories.
And Ritalin and you know yousee it on 60 Minutes and Current
Affair and you know it doesn'tthere's not really great
representation of it in themedia, even right yeah
absolutely the media, I thinkhas been the media is the one
that always propels stigma,always.
Rebecca Challoner (35:11):
So, yeah, I mean, all I can say is in my
experience, not just from my ownfamily but from the thousands
of families I've spoke to,whenever people have tried
medication and then beenpersistent, so tried the
different ones till they foundthe right one, they've in every
case had a really good umexperience.
(35:31):
I've I've the only time I'vemet people who haven't had a
good experience with it.
They've either tried the firstone and then that didn't work so
they've given up, or they'vehad a bad experience but they've
gone on to find the one thatsuits them.
So I think it is important.
Dana Baltutis (35:48):
Or sometimes I see people are doing their
self-prescription of themedication.
So they'll have the medication,they'll go oh, we upped it or
we dropped it.
Parents are doing it themselveswithout the doctor's approval,
and I think sometimes that'sdangerous too, because this
medication really does havecertain qualities about it that
(36:10):
you really need to either do itlong-term or specific times,
specific dosages, and you alwaysneed to go back to the doctor
if you really need to either doit long-term or specific times,
specific dosages, and you alwaysneed to go back to the doctor
if you're going to be changinganything in the medication.
Rebecca Challoner (36:22):
Absolutely.
I mean, at the end of the day,you know it is still a
prescribed medication, it's not.
You know you can't buy it offthe shelf, you know, so you must
.
It's really important thatpeople get the doctor before
changing dosages.
I know a lot of doctors becausegetting the right dose and it's
(36:43):
called titrating titrating themedication to find the exact
right amount and the right timesand things is really really
important.
It's a bit of a task to getthere, but you have to do it in
line with your doctor orpediatrician or psychiatrist.
You can't just go, I'm justgoing to do that myself.
You need to work with them toto get to that and and what I
(37:04):
mean?
Dana Baltutis (37:05):
should families be seeing just the GP or should
they be asking to see apediatrician or a psychiatrist?
I mean you mentioned thosethree.
That was my next question.
Um, what?
What are your experiences withthat around that?
Rebecca Challoner (37:19):
it depends where you are, because every
state has different um ways ofdoing things and every country
has different ways of doingthings.
I'm based in Victoria, so inVictoria you would go to the GP
and then be referred either tothe pediatrician for a child or
a psychiatrist for an adult, orsometimes a child psychiatrist
can do it as well but generallypaediatrician for a child and a
(37:41):
psychiatrist for an adult, andthen they're the ones, you see,
who will then work on themedication.
There is a program, um I know,um my a good friend of mine, dr
Dr Di Grocott, is working on atthe moment throughout Australia
to train GPs so that they canprescribe, because getting into
(38:01):
psychiatrists and pediatriciansthere's such a backlog it's
really difficult.
So she's, I know, workingreally hard at the moment to try
and help facilitate this.
There's a lot of other peopleworking on not you know, there's
other people working on it aswell um, so that GPs can
prescribe and so.
So there are, and will continueto be some GPs who can um, but
(38:23):
I think as a general rule at themoment we go pediatrician or
psychiatrist and do you find isthere a confusion around ADHD
and autism?
Dana Baltutis (38:34):
do you know the, the diagnosis or anything?
Do people just jump to autismstraight away and they don't
look at the adhd?
You know what's your experiencearound that?
Rebecca Challoner (38:46):
definitely, because the problem is autism's
autism and adhd is adhd, butthere is overlap.
There are certaincharacteristics that they share
um and and and.
A lot of the time because autismhas had more um, I believe has
had more effective publicitythan what ADHD has.
Adhd, it's just been a lot ofnegative focus, I think a lot of
(39:08):
the time when they're whensomebody's got or struggling
with the characteristics thatare shared, people see it as oh,
it must be autism.
For example, sensory processingdysregulation, anxiety, there's
all these things that areshared between the two um and if
people see that as being anautistic thing, they go this
(39:30):
child, this child keeps havingmeltdowns, this child can't deal
with um textures, this child,you know, and then they go oh,
it must be autism, but actuallythese are adhd things as well.
So you've got it.
You can't just look at thosethings that are shared.
It's really important to lookat the things that aren't shared
as well in the bigger picture.
And of course, there's peoplewho are autistic and ADHD and it
(39:53):
gets, you know, for theirlittle brains it gets really
complicated because they've gotthese two different conditions
battling it out, you know so itcan be quite complicated.
Dana Baltutis (40:03):
I could talk about this the whole day.
I love this topic.
Anyway, let's move to mySpirited Child, your wonderful
organisation.
What have your latest projectsbeen and how are your projects
funded, Rebecca?
Rebecca Challoner (40:19):
So they're all funded by me well, by me and
the people who pay for ticketsto go to things.
Depending on the event, somethings end up being we manage to
raise enough money to fund itcompletely, some we don't, so it
depends on the thing um, butessentially we, um, we've got,
we do as many events as we can,we can do every.
(40:41):
Every event, I think, is reallyimportant because it's not just
teaching people strategies, butit's getting, it's reducing
stigma and getting theinformation out there.
And for every hundred peoplethat attend an event and learn
truthful, factual informationand beat that stigma, they can
then spread that awarenessfurther afield.
(41:03):
So I think I mean, in the 10years that my Spirited Child has
been running, I think I wouldlike to hope that it's had a
huge impact on ADHD awareness inthis country, because you know,
there's probably maybe 20,000people have attended our events,
maybe more, and all those20,000 will have gone away and
(41:25):
spread that awareness and spreadthat information.
So I think, or hope, that it'sdoing good work and trying to
make a bit of a difference doyou?
Dana Baltutis (41:36):
you guys have conferences right.
Do you um record thoseconferences?
Can people listen to them onafter if they can't attend them?
You know, face to face oronline, it depends which one it
is so each one's different um.
Rebecca Challoner (41:51):
Some of them do get recorded and people can
access the recording afterwards.
We also do online events whichare all recorded um with the big
conferences.
So we have every state has itsown big adhd conference um.
Next weekend we've got thewestern australia adhd
conference um with those becausethey can't all be recorded
(42:13):
based on the venue and thefacilities we have to hand.
We do at the end of the year wedo an online ADHD conference
that runs the exact same formatfor all those people that
couldn't make it to one of thebig ones, so it runs exactly the
same as the big ones.
We call that the australianadhd conference online.
(42:35):
And then we also do throughoutthe year.
We do, like little little ones,little online seminars, which
usually are just me, orsometimes me and someone else um
going through whatever thetopic might be, so they're more
sort of concentrated.
So we might do one specific torejection, sensitive dysphoria,
(42:55):
or specific to anxiety, orspecific to schooling or
whatever um, and those arealways recorded and parents can
find that on your website, myspirited child.
Dana Baltutis (43:06):
So I'm going to have those in the in, in the
notes, in the podcast notes aswell, so parents can go to the
link and then you you've got amailing list that you would mail
them reminders or informationyes, we have.
Rebecca Challoner (43:20):
Yes, it's on the website, on the front page.
Just scroll down a bit andit'll say, um, you know, join
the community and and, and Ithink it says subscribe now or
something.
There's a button, um, and whenthey subscribe and it's free, uh
, obviously, to join, and thenthen they get notified before
anybody else when there's anevent going up.
It also every so often willsend out, like information on
(43:43):
topics, on something to them,just you know.
So the newsletter is prettygood for that.
Dana Baltutis (43:49):
Because let's go to your website.
Oh, that's my next question.
On your website, you're alwayslooking for volunteers.
Could you please talk aboutthat?
What would the volunteers do?
Why do you need them?
Rebecca Challoner (44:00):
So we have the volunteers at events to help
us run events, because eventsall the events we do cost huge
amounts of money and we try andkeep the ticket cost as low as
we can.
So the ticket cost doesn'toften cover the whole cost of
the event and if it does, itonly just covers it.
So we use as many volunteers aspossible to help the staff run
(44:25):
the day.
So when someone volunteers italso means that they get
obviously they get full accessto the day for free.
So they come in, they give us abit of a hand during, like the
registration period or duringthe lunch period and things like
that, and they get full accessto all the speakers.
They get a certificate at theend of it and they get a free um
.
We give them a free workbook asa just, as a thank you.
(44:47):
So they kind of.
Dana Baltutis (44:48):
That's amazing.
Rebecca Challoner (44:49):
That's so generous of you well it just it
gives it it kind of, you knowit's a bit of a win-win.
So it gives us a bit of helpand it gives them you know,
people who can't afford it itgives them the opportunity to
attend and not have to pay forit.
Dana Baltutis (45:02):
So and parents.
Can they use ndis funds to goto your events?
Rebecca Challoner (45:08):
yeah, absolutely yeah, we can um, we
can build ndis, so um, as longas they've got core budget to do
it.
Um, or they're, and they mustbe plan managed or self-managed.
We can't because we're not ndisregistered, so it can't be ndia
managed um.
I think most people are eitherplan managed or, uh,
self-managed and then they justhave to email into our team
(45:30):
admin at my spirited jobcom andwe send out an invoice to their
plan manager and it gets paidand their tickets get sent to
them.
Dana Baltutis (45:36):
Oh, beautiful, beautiful.
And also on your website,Rebecca, you wrote we do this
because we understand thatnavigating through the
neurodiversity maze can beextremely difficult, and it is
even harder to find reliable andeffective strategies and
information that you can use tohelp improve your life and the
life of your child on a dailybasis.
(45:58):
So when I read that, myquestion was what is the
neurodiversity made and has itbecome clearer in the last few
years and, if so, how?
Rebecca Challone (46:11):
Neurodiversity essentially is the idea, is the
principle that all brains aredifferent.
Um, one uh miss mistake.
I guess that I hear a lot ispeople will say that child is
neurodiverse.
Well, all children areneurodiverse.
Neurodiverse means everybody,it means all brains.
Neurodivergent is brains thatare different from the typical,
(46:31):
so brains that are autistic oradhd or Tourette's or
intellectual disabilities thosebrains are neurodivergent.
The the idea of theneurodiversity maze, I guess
what I'm sort of referring tothere is the fact that it's
people don't understand whatneurodiversity is understanding
that there are different brainsand how they can be different
(46:52):
and why they can be differentand and they can be different
and what that means and thestrategies and information that
go with it.
Dana Baltutis (47:00):
Yeah, that's what it is, I guess, and I love that
you know, because I do think atthe moment you know we're in
the infancy stage ofneuroaffirming practices and
people are sort of mixing upneurodiverse, neurodivergent,
unless you've had the trainingaround it.
So I love what you're sayingand I do believe that
(47:21):
everybody's neurodiverse.
But the people that have got isthat specific.
Do they have to have adiagnosis to be neurodivergent
or they can identify themselvesas neurodivergent?
Rebecca Challoner (47:33):
Absolutely, they can identify themselves.
I think, 100%.
Nobody knows us better than us,right?
Like I got diagnosed when I gotdiagnosed.
But I knew, I always knew deepdown, that my brain worked
differently from the majority.
I always knew that and so itwasn't necessarily that my brain
(47:53):
was less or worse, but it wasdifferent and I always knew it
was different.
So I think people absolutelyhave a right to recognise that
in themselves, that their braindoesn't quite work like the
majority of people and it'sspecial in its own unique way.
Yeah, I don't think I don't seeany reason why people I'm a big
(48:16):
believer that we can identifyhowever we want to identify
because we are the boss ofourselves and if somebody sees
that in themselves, then yep,100%, they are neurodivergent
because there is sometimes thatdebate isn't there in the
community that I'mneurodivergent because I've got
a diagnosis.
Dana Baltutis (48:35):
You don't have a diagnosis, you're self-diagnosed
, so you are not neurodivergent.
I think that is changing, butit has, because I think again,
it's like a birth.
It's a new birth coming out.
You know all about that.
Neuroaffirming and respectingneurodiversity is really huge.
So what are some reliable andeffective strategies to help
(48:56):
parents, help their children,improve their life on a daily
basis?
Like what would be four gemsthat you could share with us.
Rebecca Challoner (49:07):
Oh, wow, wow.
There's thousands, thousandsand thousands, and it depends
whether the child's adhd,autistic neurodivergent got
anxiety.
What's going on, um?
So I guess some general onesthat would apply to all children
, um, and all parents.
Number one would be stopfocusing on you being the boss
(49:27):
and them doing as they're told.
That would be.
That would be, hands down, thebiggest and most valuable
strategy any parent can ever dois focus on building a
connection.
Connection is the number one,most important thing, not just
in self-esteem, not just inmental health, but in future
(49:47):
life success, life happiness,life health, everything.
There's um.
There's a huge study I talkabout this study a lot, but
there's a huge study done byharvard university, um, by dr
robert waldinger.
It's been going on for, Ibelieve, about 80 years, or just
over 80 years now, and it'sstill going.
And what they're trying to lookat is what's the one thing that
(50:09):
makes life just overall thebest, like total well-being, how
long you live, how healthy youare, how happy you are, how
successful you are, everythingand the one thing that impacts
that whole well-being in totalis connection.
So we need to move away fromtrying to teach our children
(50:32):
discipline and doing as they'retold and compliance and all
these things, and start movingtowards the most important thing
for them when they're older,which is connection.
And, as I said before, youcannot connect if you think
you're up here and they're downhere, and they just us on this
earth to do as they're told byyou.
Um, so my number one strategyfor all parents, no matter
(50:55):
what's going on with your child,is try and connect with them
and I guess, and I guess sorry,rebecca, to interrupt, but I
guess, like some parents will goyeah, yeah, I am connecting.
Dana Baltutis (51:07):
So they're doing it, but they're not feeling it
and thinking it and the childknows, the child knows the
intent behind it.
They're like, ah, you're justtrying to trick me, you're
trying to get me to do whatyou're doing right.
So it really needs to come fromyour heart.
You really really need tobelieve that connection and
you're just doing it fromyourself.
(51:28):
You're not doing it just fromyour head, because Rebecca said
right, yeah, and you can't bedoing it from yourself.
Rebecca Challoner (51:32):
You're not doing it just on your head,
because Rebecca said right, yeah, and you can't be doing it
because you think that I know ifI connect with them, they're
going to do as I tell them more.
Yes, because you're not doingthat, you're not connecting.
Connecting is about meeting inthe middle, like you've got to
meet them, in other words.
In other words, you've got tonot just pull them up to where
you are, but you've got to pullyourself down.
(51:52):
Now, for a lot of people, theiregos don't like that.
So you've got to be able to letyour ego go and meet them in
the middle, which means givingthem power, letting them make
choices.
I don't, you know a lot ofparents are afraid of letting
their kid make choices.
Let them make choices.
Where are you going on yournext holiday?
Let them decide, you know, andparents kind of go well, I'm
(52:16):
going to let my child decidewhere we go.
Yeah, why not?
Dana Baltutis (52:19):
I can hear everyone going what we're going
to Disneyland every year.
Rebecca Challoner (52:27):
But if we want kids who are going to grow
up and have high self-esteem andfeel truly connected to their
parents, we need to give them asmuch say in what goes on as we
give ourselves.
Does that mean they can't havethey, they don't have boundaries
?
No, um, you know, like my childwould love to drink red bull,
(52:47):
but he's 12 and he can't drinkRed Bull because it's really bad
for him.
So I explained to him that Iget that he wants it and I get
why he wants it.
But my job, part of my job, isto look after his health.
So he can't have it.
But that's not because I don'twant, I want to take that power
away from him.
It's just because I have a jobto do which is look after his
health.
Um, so I understand it sucksand I get it, but that's a rule
(53:12):
I just have to enforce for yoursafety, you know.
And so you can have boundaries,but you can explain those
boundaries in a way to say tothem look, I get it.
It's not because I think I'mbetter than you, I'm more
important than you, that I'mmaking this rule.
It's just because part of myjob is to look after your health
, you know, or whatever thething may be.
Um, and I think I think I think,um, a lot, of, a lot of parents
(53:34):
will find that very difficultto do.
Um, but it's just reallyimportant to go.
Do you know what it's?
I'm not the boss, because whenwe raise kids in an environment
where they're not worth as muchas us, what you know, their
(53:56):
developmental years are spent ina household where they are the
lowest person in thatenvironment.
What do we think that does totheir mental health and their
self-esteem when they're older?
You know, and do you know whatit's hard work?
My youngest son.
So I've lived by this and I'velived by it best with my
youngest son because I learnedit sooner with him, and so he's
(54:17):
for me sometimes a bit of anuisance because he argues
everything and he debateseverything and he thinks he
knows better than me and hewants his say and he 100%
believes% believes rightly sothat his opinion and his
decisions matter as much as mine.
So where we go and what we doare just as much his choice as
(54:40):
mine.
Is that hard work as a parent?
Hell, yes, it's really hard work, but I guarantee when he's
older he's going to besuccessful, he's going to be
happy and he's going to havehigh self-esteem and so, yes,
it's hard for me for the nexthe's 12, so the next at least
six years.
But at least you know, my mominadvertently because she didn't
mean to, but she justinadvertently kind of did the
(55:01):
same thing with me and and itmeans that I'm really bossy,
massive control freak, um, but Ido, I will advocate for myself
and I'm doing all right in life.
So I think, um, yeah, it's hardfor parents to do, but we've
got to look at the biggerpicture of what and um, the kids
that are, you know that doadvocate for themselves.
Dana Baltutis (55:22):
They teach you as well, because then you've got
to come up with the reasons.
You've got to start being moreself-reflective and thinking
about oh yeah, why, why am Iasking him or her to do that
right?
Rebecca Challoner (55:34):
absolutely, parents often will say it's like
automatic no's, parents theyknow to things just because they
just they just feel like theycan't say too many yeses.
You know, it's likeautomatically no.
I have this policy where I willalways try and do an automatic
yes.
So whenever they ask, ask foranything, my answer in my head
is automatically yes, and thenI'll look for a reason for it to
(55:56):
be no.
And I think that's reallyimportant, because if I can't
find a good reason for it to beno, then actually it's a yes.
But if we want kids to havegood self-esteem which
ultimately is everything it'severything, it's the most
important thing.
If we want them to have goodself-esteem which ultimately is
everything, it's everything,it's the most important thing if
we want them to have goodself-esteem, then we've got to
give them choice.
(56:16):
We have to give them control.
We all need a sense of controlif we're going to feel good
about ourselves and we have tolet them know that sometimes
their decisions are better thanus and sometimes they can decide
things, they can know thingsbetter than us.
We don't always have to be theboss.
We, you know and, um, yeah,it's hard for parents to do that
(56:39):
.
It's definitely a skill todevelop.
I do think it took me four yearsat least to really get that
down.
But, um, but I see the rewardnow.
Um, you know, when I look at mykids, especially my youngest,
my, my eldest, I reward.
Now, you know, when I look atmy kids, especially my youngest,
my oldest, I messed it up, youknow he's.
I didn't do it right, I triedto do the whole.
I'm the boss, you're the kid,and I look at them now and one's
(57:01):
got really high self-esteem andreally high confidence and you
can see this amazing littleself-advocate person and the
other has lower self-esteem andhigher anxiety.
So I've seen it, you know, doneboth ways and I definitely
would do it the second way again.
Dana Baltutis (57:21):
But what an amazing learning journey your
children have gifted you in thislifetime 100%.
Rebecca Challoner (57:29):
I've definitely learned.
I've learned so much out ofthem.
Um, but I think the good thingis, you know, I speak to
thousands and thousands ofparents and at least I'm not
just preaching like I've livedit and I've done it.
I think nobody wants to listento someone just preaching at
them about what they read in atextbook.
Dana Baltutis (57:46):
You know oh, rebecca chall, thank you so much
for today.
You are an inspiration, you areamazing.
You're such a great advocate.
I love the way you just wearyour heart on your sleeve and
you just say what you feel.
And everything that you saidtoday really resonated with me
(58:11):
and I'm sure it's going toresonate with many, many
families.
And I wanted you on the showbecause I know that it's really
hard for families to hear youjust from day to day.
So I know what my familieswould want to be asking you and
that's why I wanted to have youon that show.
And again, again, thank you somuch, because I know you're
(58:34):
really busy.
I know you've got the ADHDconference in WA next weekend
because I know Sandy Bootham ispresenting there and she's
already been a speaker here.
So thank you again.
Thank you so much for your timeand you know you are a gift to
the community.
So thank you, rebecca.
(58:56):
Thank you, it's been lovely tospeak to you, thank you.
Hi, R rebecca Challoner, welcome to the
Empowered Parent Podcast.
I'm so excited to have you onthe podcast today because you
are the founder of my SpiritedChild, a wonderful organization
that does so much for theneurodivergent community, their
(00:26):
families, carers andprofessionals in Australia and
beyond.
You are also the co-founder ofPEKE Centers, which started in
Victoria when I Googled, becauseI'm in South Australia which
provide customized supportacross the lifespan, from
diagnosis to strength-basedtherapies and family supports,
(00:49):
specialising in autism, adhd,anxiety, sensory challenges and
regulation support.
On your website, I've read thatyou are neurodivergent yourself
, as are your two children.
I'm really, really keen tospeak to you today because I
view you as an empowered parentwho started helping not only
(01:13):
yourself and your children, buta whole community.
So welcome, R rebecca.
Thank you.
Rebecca Challoner (01:21):
Thank you for having me.
Dana Baltutis (01:22):
So, R rebecca, could you please share with the
listeners today a little bitabout your background and how
and why my Spirited Child andthe PEKE Centres came to be?
Rebecca Challoner (01:37):
Yeah, so I myself am ADHD, as you pointed
out, and dyslexic.
My kids are both ADHD and myoldest son also has an
intellectual disability um aboutit kind of all.
My journey probably started 25years ago when I started working
as a teacher to children, um,who were neurodivergent at the
(01:58):
time and that's kind of.
That was long before I had anykids and long before I knew I
was neurodivergent and that sortof started my passion, I
suppose.
Then, when I had my eldest sonand sort of had to grow my own
knowledge and to be able tosupport him, what I found was it
was really difficult to getknowledge and to get information
(02:23):
that was accurate and easy tofind, and so, based on that, I
started my Spirited Child.
At the time it was just a blogthis was 10 years ago as
something to just get thatinformation to other parents who
, like me, were just desperateto find accurate information in
an easy, easy way.
And from the blog it just grewand it grew to the events and
(02:46):
the resources and things.
And then with the Peke Centresmyself and Christina Keeble, who
is my other co-founder we asparents we were just sick of
taking our kids to places wherethey were treated like there was
something wrong with them andthey needed to be
cured.
And they went in and you alwayscome out feeling really, um,
(03:10):
just rubbish about your kids,you know, and their futures.
And we wanted to createsomewhere that was truly
affirming, where, when ourchildren went in the, the vibe
was absolutely nothing wrongwith you, you're perfect.
You're perfect exactly as youare.
Yes, we're going to help youwith the things that you're
struggling with Like it might beanxiety.
(03:32):
We're going to help you withyour mental health, whatever you
need, but it's what you need,not what society needs.
And when you leave here, you'regoing to walk out feeling great
about yourself and so that'syeah.
That was, I guess, why wecreated that one self, and so
that's yeah, that was, I guess,why we created that one.
So it's kind of all about.
Both of them are about sort ofhelping the neurodivergent
community just feel better, knowbetter and just generally do
(03:53):
better oh, I love that.
Dana Baltutis (03:55):
I love that and the name peak p-e-k-e for the
listeners um to where, if theywant Google?
Where did that come from?
Rebecca Challoner (04:06):
So at the time this was before I got
married, so my surname wasPerkins, so it was literally
just the first two letters of mysurname and the first two
letters of Christina's surnameP-E for Perkins and K-E for
Keeble.
Excuse me, though, Okay.
Dana Baltutis (04:22):
He's going.
Yes, I love that name, I lovethat name.
Rebecca Challoner (04:25):
And it was a bit of a double, a double
meaning, because it was oursurnames but also we would.
It was sort of the, the thoughtof people helping people to
reach their peak and just be thebest that they can be and how
many people now use your centresor have used your centres Like?
Dana Baltutis (04:44):
is it in the hundreds?
Is it in the thousands?
What are we looking at?
Because it was only established.
What was it?
2021?
Is that right?
Rebecca Challoner (04:52):
Yes, so three years ago we started the first
one and then in Melbourne's east, in Cranbourne, and then the
second one in Werribee.
We started 12 months ago.
Um, and that one, um, yeah, theboth of them are doing really
well.
Um, I'd say probably hundredsat this point because we've only
(05:14):
got the two.
So, yeah, probably hundreds ofpeople.
But I think the the biggerpicture for both of them is not
so much the clients that comedirectly to them, but the, the
position it puts the market in.
Um and I think with when we setup peak um, neurodiversity
affirming practice was onlyreally just getting talked about
(05:37):
and it certainly wasn't beingdone very well by many people,
and I think what we wanted to dowas set a standard across the
market.
So it wasn't so much just aboutus doing it.
We wanted to get as many othertherapy centers doing it as well
, and we also wanted to send avery clear message to any
therapy centers that were doingthe opposite to say that's not
(05:59):
okay.
It's not okay to do unaffirmingpractices.
It's not okay to do unaffirmingpractices.
It's not okay to do some ofthese really negative treatments
with kids that just do theopposite and have this sort of
persona of trying to cure kidswhen they don't need.
That's not what they need.
Dana Baltutis (06:21):
And do you work with parents of these children?
Like, what work do you do withthe parents?
Because sometimes it's themindset, right, because our
society is still very much um,it's moving more to a social
model, but it's very much amedical model, because that's,
the diagnosis comes from themedical uh institutions and then
(06:44):
the parents sort of carry thatand want to fix or cure right.
I've seen that a lot, yeahabsolutely.
Rebecca Challoner (06:51):
So, yeah, a lot of it is, whether it be
myself or Christina or whetherit be the therapists themselves.
RThere's a lot of parent
education going along all theway through the journey.
We also because Christina and Iobviously we both do a lot of
public speaking and we both do alot of events and PDs and that
sort of thing we're kind ofconstantly mixing the two to try
(07:15):
and get that message out there.
I think it's really reallyimportant that parents,
educators, professionals, allbegin to understand that that
mental health is.
It is explicitly tied toachievements, and when we say to
a kid, you're not good enoughand you need to be fixed, that
(07:36):
affects their mental health,which will always impact their
achievements.
So we're not we think we'rehelping them.
We're not.
When we, when we're tellingthem they need to be fixed and
cured and changed, we're nothelping them.
Um, so so.
So getting people to adjusttheir thinking, to understand
the importance of the socialmodel and the importance of
(08:00):
neuroaffirming practice and how,how accepting a kid for who
they are is absolutelyinherently important to
someone's self-esteem and mentalhealth.
Dana Baltutis (08:12):
And I also find, when I'm working with parents
and they are focusing on thechild changing and I believe you
know, I know that perception isprojection it's often the
parents have got the pain andthe healing that they need to do
within themselves to be able toaccept themselves and then
accept the child.
(08:33):
Do you find that, rebecca?
Rebecca Challoner (08:36):
Absolutely, and a lot of the time, and it's
hard.
I think it's hard for parents.
I think when we we we as adultswe were raised in a very
different environment wheremental health wasn't top of the
priority list or even midway upthe priority list, you know, and
help and children needed to beseen and not heard, and they
(08:58):
needed to just do as they weretold and um, and if a child did
something wrong it was becausethey were naughty, never mind
what might be going on for thatchild.
And and we, when we were raisedlike that, that becomes a core
part of who we are, because itwas what was taught to us in our
developmental period.
So for a lot of parentssometimes the knowing how to
(09:23):
change the way they're doingthings with the kids isn't
actually enough.
They know it, but being able todo it and put it into action is
really difficult.
It's a you know, it's a skill.
It takes years of practice.
Dana Baltutis (09:35):
And there's all the.
There's that whole new movementthat's out now.
It's been out for a while, butI think it's becoming more and
more popular.
Rebecca Challoner (09:43):
Conscious parenting, empowered parenting
do you guys use those terms atthe peak centers um we well, we
don't really use the term, thoseterms I suppose we do to a
point, but we more just talkabout um, be, you know, um, we
more talk about sort ofrelationship-based approaches,
(10:04):
connection-based approaches.
It's the same thing.
But yeah, we talk a lot aboutthe relational approach to
parenting and moving away frombehaviourism.
I myself, one of the things Ido a lot when I'm working with
parents, one-to-one or on a bigscale, is focus on um, how and
(10:26):
why relational approaches toparenting are so, so, very
important.
Because when, when we usebehaviorism, it's, you know,
theoretically, on paper, itworks, because kids will do what
they are told to do out of fearof the consequence.
But but yes, it works in theshort term.
(10:50):
But what you create is an adultwho is compliant and doesn't
know their own mind and can'tadvocate for themselves.
And, and you know, I think a lotof parents think that they want
children who comply and alwaysdo as they're told and everyone
goes, oh, isn't your child wellbehaved?
Parents think they want that,but what parents often don't
(11:12):
think about is what the theconsequence of that is when they
have an adult child, when theirchild is an adult, you know,
and they can't advocate forthemselves and they don't know
how to say no because they'vealways been told don't you say
no to me.
And they don't know how to sayno because they've always been
told don't you say no to me.
And they don't know how tostand up for themselves or have
self esteem, or have selfconfidence or know their own
(11:32):
worth or any of these things.
And we start to sort of realisethen that we actually probably
do want the child who's a littlebit, you know, who pushes
boundaries, and we want thechild who, who will, um, argue
or debate for themselves andadvocate for themselves, and we
want the child who sometimeswill, will say no to you.
You know it's hard as a parentto have a child say no, but we
(11:55):
want them to say no because weit's a very important skill that
we need to teach them.
So I think, um, I think for alot of parents, I think learning
that different approach andit's not all about do as you're
told or else you know I thinkthat's really important.
Dana Baltutis (12:12):
And also, I think the child's building their or
forming their identity right,creating their identity and who
they are in the world, as wellas boundaries, you know, and I
think that's so important,because then we say, oh, that
child's got very big, you knowopen boundaries or no boundaries
(12:33):
or constricted boundaries, soyou know that's all part of them
knowing where they end, wherethe world begins, and what they
like, what they don't like.
So, yeah, that's pretty amazing.
So you said you were aschoolteacher, is that right?
Rebecca Challoner (12:48):
Yeah, a long time ago, right.
Dana Baltutis (12:50):
So talk to me about how your peak centres and
then their schools becauseschools we're still not so much.
We are moving.
The schools are moving towardsthe relational model more and
more.
However, children do still havea place and they're seen but
not heard in the school system.
(13:12):
How do you advocate for that?
How do you advocate for thekids when you're interfacing
schools?
Because there are some reallyreally good schools but there
are still some children thathave had like real huge traumas
attending schools.
Rebecca Challoner (13:28):
Yeah, I think schooling is a big problem big
problem not just in this country, but globally.
I think I'm a big believer inthe education system needs to be
completely reinvented from theground up.
And one of the biggest problemsis, like I do, a lot of pds in
schools and I can walk into.
(13:48):
I've walked into some amazingschools where the teachers and
the principals of the school areso dedicated to you know I can
say you need to do this, thisand this and it's going to cost
them a ton of money and theyjust go.
Not a problem, it's done.
You know brilliant schools, butthe fact is, even in the best
schools that I've seen, they'restill working on.
(14:10):
They still are found.
Their foundations lie inbehaviorism.
That you know it's still.
The teacher is still miss suchand such and the kid is still
that's their first name and thekid they're still very strong.
You know there's no.
I always say connection andrelationships is the foundation
(14:31):
of a child feeling good aboutthemselves.
But you can't connect with achild if you're here and they're
there.
You cannot truly connect andthe basis of all school
foundations is that the teacheris here and the child is here,
and so, as great as someteachers are.
They're amazing.
The true connection, that trueconnection where a child really
(14:53):
does feel empowered and andtruly on the same level, cannot
be there in the school system asit stands.
Um, there are a few privateschools that are doing better,
because they're kind of doingthat, running by their own rules
a little bit, but not many, andI think there's a long way to
go before the school systemtruly starts treating kids how
(15:16):
they should be kids.
I also think that school anxietyI hear more, I get more emails
and messages from parents aboutschool anxiety than I do about
anything else it's the numberone thing that I get asked about
.
It is a massive problem.
I think these poor kids and,unfortunately, most parents,
(15:40):
just don't know what to do.
They don't know because becausetheir child is, you know,
really struggling with attendingschool.
But the, the, the school often,and and society and the
government all sort of say tothe parent you go, get your kid
in school, no matter what, getthem into school.
And so the parent feels thisunbelievable pressure to go
(16:01):
against their instincts whichsays my kid needs to be not at
school right now and push themin, and that's a big problem
that we have at the moment.
Dana Baltutis (16:11):
Yeah, it's a big topic, isn't it?
It's a big topic and, like yousay, it goes to many levels.
You know, it's not the teachers, it's not the principals, it's
the government, it's society and, like you say, it's worldwide.
It's not the principals, it's,it's the government, it's
society, it's and, like you say,it's worldwide.
(16:32):
It's not just here in Australia.
Yeah, so, uh, rebecca, you area neurodivergent parent.
What are your superpowers,besides my spirited child,
besides the peak centers,besides being a public speaker
and an educator?
What are your superpowers, doyou feel?
Rebecca Challoner (16:47):
um.
So I think, probably, um, Ithink I have two.
I think I have two superpowers,if you will, and I think both
of them are ADHD related.
One would be, um, like allADHDs, I'm extremely intuitive,
so when my kids are feeling, orquite often, other people's kids
, I sense it.
(17:07):
I think being highly intuitiveis really helpful when you're a
parent, I think.
The other one, which is, itcould be a superpower or it
could be the worst thing tohappen to someone.
It's a bit of both.
Both is because, um, like manyADHDers, I have the really
(17:28):
extreme case of rejection,sensitive dysphoria.
The way, the way I deal withthat is that I, um, I tend to
overachieve, so I become, I'vebecome this massive
perfectionist and this massiveoverachiever which um is.
I think if I was put in frontof a psychologist or a
psychiatrist, they'd probably go.
(17:48):
Probably not a good thing, butit is the reason I've achieved
everything.
I've achieved, um, so it's it.
I'd say it's the worst thingand the best thing rolled into
one um yeah, so you said umrejection, sensitive dysphoria.
Dana Baltutis (18:03):
Can you just explain that to the listeners a
little bit?
Unpack that.
Rebecca Challoner (18:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
You'll have to excuse my dogbarking, that's okay.
Dana Baltutis (18:12):
He has a really good time.
He wants to be on the podcastas well.
Rebecca Challoner (18:17):
There's two of them, two dogs and somebody's
obviously walking near thehouse.
Anyway, I'll stop in a secondnear the house.
Anyway, I'll stop in a second.
Um.
So, um, rejection, sensitivedysphoria, is a thing that
affects um a huge number of adhdis it does affect other people
who want adhd, but, but a lot ofadhd really struggle with it,
(18:37):
and what it is is it's like areally extreme reaction to um
failure or criticism, and I'dsay it's a very physiological
reaction.
So when we feel like we'refailing or we feel like we're
being criticized, we we feel it.
It's, it's painful, um, and anda lot of people will say, oh
(18:59):
well, nobody likes beingcriticized.
You know, and that's true, noone does like being criticized.
But for an ADHDer who struggleswith rejection sensitivity,
it's much more than a dislike.
It's very physically painful.
And because we have this fear offailure, this fear of criticism
, this fear, it's a fear ofjudgment.
(19:20):
Because we have that, it meansthat we naturally put certain
things into place, um,subconsciously for ourselves, to
protect ourselves against that.
One of those things, which isthe one I tend to do, is we
become perfectionists.
We have to win, we have tooverachieve.
We cannot lose at any cost.
(19:40):
Um, sometimes we may become likeunderachievers.
We may because we, we justdon't try, because if we don't
try we can't fail.
So we just give up and don'ttry at all.
We may.
Often, for ADHDs, they may lieor become defensive because to
get away from the risk ofanything being their fault, or
(20:05):
I'm trying to think, well,there's another one, I've missed
one, I can't think what it is.
Anyway, there's all thesethings that we do, these sort of
subconscious strategies that weput in place to protect
ourselves from the pain ofrejection sensitivity.
And I think for ADHDers,rejection sensitivity and I
think for ADHD is rejectionsensitivity as far as probably
(20:26):
the most harmful ADHDcharacteristic.
But, as I said, for me, yes,it's, it's, you know, it's
probably not the best for goodmental health, but it's the
thing that has, without a doubt,driven a lot of my success.
So, yeah, and has made theseamazing uh organizations for
(20:47):
other people and the communityright yeah, yeah, well, and and
I think, um, if you look at themost successful people in the
world, you know they're reallybig billionaires and people
running huge foundations.
A lot of them are adhd and Ithink the reason that happens is
partly because of this need to.
You know, this perfectionism,this overachievement, and also
(21:10):
they're very intuitive andbecause of it, they become very
ambitious.
So what you end up with issomeone who's really ambitious.
Adhd is very good athyperfocusing, so they can
hyperfocus on the things they'rereally passionate about.
They're ambitious, they're'rehyper focused, they're really
intuitive to what people needand you know, when you mix all
(21:32):
that into a, into a melting pottogether, you end up with,
oftentimes, really successfulpeople, um, so so I think adhd
is have have.
When they're supported and whenthey have people really help
them grow and help them buildthat self-esteem and that
confidence in themselves, youknow they can achieve the world.
(21:54):
It becomes quite incredible.
Dana Baltutis (21:57):
How did you find out all of this information,
rebecca, about yourself.
You know someone might belistening, listening, there
could be parents listening andthey're like, oh, this resonates
with me, but how do I know?
Who do I go to?
How did I, how did she, howdoes she know all this?
Rebecca Challoner (22:13):
um, years and years and years of research.
Um, I'm in a very fortunateposition because not only am I
ADHD, but my kids are both ADHDmy husband's ADHD.
I also work, obviously, in theindustry and I've been
researching it for years, soit's just a combination of tons
(22:34):
and tons of research, meetingand speaking with tons and
thousands of other people,whilst being able to intuitively
look and understand my kids,and I'm very good at self
understand my kids and I'm verygood at self-reflection, so I'm
very good at understanding wherethings are coming from in
myself, and I think that puts mein a really useful position to
(22:57):
be able to understand it at asort of probably a slightly
higher level than if I was justreading it.
You know.
Dana Baltutis (23:04):
Yeah, that's great.
So, rebecca, what are thechallenges you encounter as a
neurodivergent parent on a dailybasis and how do you overcome
them?
Just, you know little thingsevery day.
Rebecca Challoner (23:18):
Well, the biggest challenge, without a
doubt, is my youngest kid hasthe exact same ADHD challenges
as what I do, or very similar,and he struggles with the
emotional dysregulation.
I also struggle, struggle withemotional dysregulation.
Now the problem with that iswhen the two happen at the same
time.
(23:38):
If I'm having, I call it, a badadhd day, if I'm having a bad
adhd day and he's also having abad adhd day, which means his
behavior most 99% of the timeI'm I can do great and I do it
all right and I support him andbrilliant.
But every so often if I'mhaving a really high anxiety day
(24:00):
, I find that very difficult andit him having to go at me
triggers my rejection, sensitivedysphoria, and then we, and
then I don't deal with it.
Well, that 10, that's probablythe thing I find.
Uh, I'm all deal with it.
Well, that's probably the thingI find.
I'm all right with it now.
But that was the biggestchallenge I had to overcome as a
parent was learning how tocontrol my own dysregulation to
(24:29):
help my child with his.
That was.
It took probably three or fouryears of really high intensity
focus on that to try and developthat skill.
Um, the other thing, the otherthing that's a big, big
challenge for me is I strugglewith auditory sensory challenges
, because a lot of ADHD isstruggle with sensory sensory
processing.
Mine is auditory and my eldestson, who also has an
(24:54):
intellectual disability, he willoften make a lot of noises.
He has a lot of stims and hemakes a lot of noise and some of
them are very loud and some ofthem are very ongoing.
And he also does this beautifulthing which is also
anxiety-inducing for me, whichis he'll say mum.
(25:16):
At the start, in the middle andat the end of every single
sentence he says so, it's mum.
Can I mum have this mumEverything, every single
sentence, and by the end of somedays, especially if I'm having
a high-anxiety day, I find thatquite over.
That's a challenge.
Dana Baltutis (25:34):
How do you overcome that?
Like, are there things you doto ground yourself?
Or you know, like, becausesometimes I've heard parents
just say well, I just, you know,ignore that little piece, or
I'm more within myself.
Do you do anything like that,rebecca?
I am?
Rebecca Challoner (25:53):
So I'm phenomenally self-disciplined
when it comes to my kids.
So I am a big believer and Iknow that not everyone believes
this, but I believe that when Ihad kids, for me that became my
number one job, and so my needscome second to their needs,
which means that when he's doingthat especially, he does it
(26:14):
more.
When he's anxious even if I'manxious, I gotta I just gotta
deal with it.
So I will, um, almost do theopposite of what I tell people
to do, which is mask the crapout of myself to make sure that
he doesn't see that his, hisnoises or his words are in any
way inducing anxiety in me.
(26:36):
Um, if it's worst case scenario,I'll tag team with my husband.
We're pretty good, and if oneof the kids is really like if
one of us is having a bad a bitof a bad adhd day and we need a
bit of a rest, the other onewill tap.
We'll tap each other out andthen I'll get to go to the
bedroom and he'll just go oh,let me deal with you sort of
thing to the kids.
So we, we will tag team alittle bit, and I think that for
(27:00):
people who have got asupportive partner, that tapping
each other out when, when, whenit's needed, I think is very
helpful.
That's probably the best toolthat we have, I think.
Dana Baltutis (27:10):
How did you, how did you know that you and
neurodivergent, how did you findthat?
Find out like, did it just cometo you one day, or you always
had that feeling.
Or when you saw your kids, yousaw part, parts of yourself in
them.
How did?
Rebecca Challoner (27:24):
you?
Um, well, it was interestingbecause I didn't know I was um
neurodivergent until I was in my30s.
Um and I, and and it was justthrough all the research and
work I was doing to help otherpeople and to help my kids, I
just the more.
Very quickly I sort of justbecame aware that that that was
me.
Um, like most adhd is.
(27:45):
It took years of before Iactually went and got a
diagnosis.
After I knew I was clearly adhdum dyslexia.
I got diagnosed at universitywith dyslexia.
One of my lecturers picked itup but the ADHD.
And when I got that diagnosisit was the most self-esteem
building thing I've ever done inmy life.
(28:06):
All of a sudden, I'd grown upfeeling like I was a bit
annoying or feeling like I was abit too much for people, and
that always affected myself-esteem.
And when I got that diagnosis,all of a sudden there was a
reason for that and it wasn'tjust and I wasn't a bit annoying
and it wasn't about me being abit too much for people, and
(28:29):
that was the most affirmingthing I've ever done.
And when people ask me do youthink I should get a diagnosis?
I don't really need one, what?
What good is it going to do?
That's what good it's going todo.
It's going to empower you and Ithink, yeah, getting that
diagnosis was just the bestthing I ever did.
Dana Baltutis (28:45):
Great and talk to me about ADHD, for people who
don't really know what it is.
What is ADHD?
And I've seen, like on socialmedia, that people talk about
different types of ADHD.
Is that a thing?
Rebecca Challoner (28:59):
Yeah, so ADHD is.
It's, you know, much likeautism.
It's a spectrum.
So ADHD is the neurodivergentcondition where our brains work
a little bit differently throughdifferent ways and I won't go
too much into the neuroscienceof it right now because it might
get a bit too much for people,um, but essentially our brain
(29:20):
works differently, um, due to avariety of factors and and
because of the way an ADHD brainworks, there's loads and loads
of different characteristics ofADHD, but each person can sit
differently on that spectrum.
So, for example, a lot ofADHDers not all, but a lot will
(29:40):
struggle with sensory processing, but for some it might be
auditory sensory, like me.
For another person they mightbe fine with auditory sensory
processing but struggle withtactile sensory processing or
visual sensory processingthere's loads of.
I mean, essentially, adhd isalways characterised by the
distractibility side of things.
(30:02):
The title, the name ADHD, isvery misleading to people
because we don't have anattention deficit.
We have a variable attention,our attention.
We can pay very good attentionto things that interest us it's
interest-based.
We can't pay attention tothings that don't.
Not all ADHD is a hyperactive,so it's a mixture of a lot of
(30:29):
things.
So if I was to pinpointsomeone's ADHD on a spectrum,
for example.
If I was to take that spectrumand then sort of mark it out how
someone struggles, what I'd seeis everybody would be different
.
Every ADHD would be different.
But an ADHD would be differentto a neurotypical person because
a neurotypical person wouldn'tstruggle with most of the ADHD
(30:52):
things, whereas an ADHD willstruggle with, which they'll
have more things they strugglewith than they don't.
On that list, if that makessense, but there's a lot.
There's about 150characteristics of ADHD.
Dana Baltutis (31:05):
So, wow, there's a lot of things that could be
going on there wow, and let'stalk medication, because I know
there's I know some familiesI've worked with and the doctors
have suggested medication.
The families are veryanti-medication.
They're worried that theirchild's going to be a zombie.
(31:25):
Can you talk to that a bit,rebecca, please?
Rebecca Challoner (31:28):
Absolutely, I mean the first thing to say is
is ADHD, as well as is the mostcommon neurological condition in
existence.
But as well as being super,super common, unfortunately it
also comes with the mostmisunderstandings and the most
stigma and the anti-medicationideology I guess around.
(31:50):
Adhd is often a result of thestigma, which is really sad,
because if a child had epilepsyand they had to be medicated for
that, we wouldn't think twice.
Or diabetes or any otheranything else.
Actually, it's only with ADHDthat parents kind of and it's
because of society.
You know, I did it myself.
(32:10):
I remember when my eldest,who's now 18, was very young and
the first doctor he sawsuggested medication and my
first reaction was no, but Iwouldn't have said that in a
million years if it had beenepilepsy, it was.
It's purely around societalstigma that that comes from adhd
meds.
Although not everybody needs.
(32:32):
I'm not medicated.
So I can first of all say youknow I'm not medicated, but
everybody else in my householdis I'm the only one who isn't um
, and and I think ADHD meds areabsolutely, when you get the
right one, can be life-changingmy, my family, everyone in my
family.
If you were to take theirmedication away from them today,
their lives would wouldcollapse.
(32:54):
It's been completelylife-changing, um, and I think I
think the the two problems withadhd meds one is the stigma.
The other problem is becausethere are a variety of different
ones and there are differentones for a reason it's.
It's so that we can find theright one to suit each person,
(33:14):
but when people try the wrongone first, one that doesn't suit
them, it gives them this oh mygod, my child's going to be a
zombie because that person'schild was a zombie when they
took it and in actual fact, theyjust needed to try a different
one.
Um, my, my youngest son, he,when he first went onto
(33:34):
medication the first one hetried he became very, very um,
dysregulated, very angry.
It really had quite an extremeeffect on his emotions, but we
moved him off that and moved himonto a different one and then
he was brilliant and it was theabsolutely hands down the best
thing we ever did.
It's really really helped him,you know, feel himself and be
(33:56):
himself.
It hasn't changed hispersonality in any way.
It just allows him to focus andit allows him to not feel so
dysregulated.
So I'm I'm a big, even thoughI'm not medicated.
I'm actually a big fan ofmedication.
I think adhd meds are um one ofthe most, I think, the most
(34:16):
effective medication for anyneurological condition on the
planet.
They are, without a doubt, oneof the most tested medications
and, yeah, I think every timeI've met a parent who doesn't
want to medicate it, always whenyou investigate further, it
always comes down to their um,that stigma and things they've
(34:40):
heard on the grapevine um andworries and the worries are
always based on that stigma thatthey've encountered and I do.
Dana Baltutis (34:47):
I agree, rebecca.
I think it's also historicaland stories.
And Ritalin and you know yousee it on 60 Minutes and Current
Affair and you know it doesn'tthere's not really great
representation of it in themedia, even right yeah
absolutely the media, I thinkhas been the media is the one
that always propels stigma,always.
Rebecca Challoner (35:11):
So, yeah, I mean, all I can say is in my
experience, not just from my ownfamily but from the thousands
of families I've spoke to,whenever people have tried
medication and then beenpersistent, so tried the
different ones till they foundthe right one, they've in every
case had a really good umexperience.
(35:31):
I've I've the only time I'vemet people who haven't had a
good experience with it.
They've either tried the firstone and then that didn't work so
they've given up, or they'vehad a bad experience but they've
gone on to find the one thatsuits them.
So I think it is important.
Dana Baltutis (35:48):
Or sometimes I see people are doing their
self-prescription of themedication.
So they'll have the medication,they'll go oh, we upped it or
we dropped it.
Parents are doing it themselveswithout the doctor's approval,
and I think sometimes that'sdangerous too, because this
medication really does havecertain qualities about it that
(36:10):
you really need to either do itlong-term or specific times,
specific dosages, and you alwaysneed to go back to the doctor
if you really need to either doit long-term or specific times,
specific dosages, and you alwaysneed to go back to the doctor
if you're going to be changinganything in the medication.
Rebecca Challoner (36:22):
Absolutely.
I mean, at the end of the day,you know it is still a
prescribed medication, it's not.
You know you can't buy it offthe shelf, you know, so you must
.
It's really important thatpeople get the doctor before
changing dosages.
I know a lot of doctors becausegetting the right dose and it's
(36:43):
called titrating titrating themedication to find the exact
right amount and the right timesand things is really really
important.
It's a bit of a task to getthere, but you have to do it in
line with your doctor orpediatrician or psychiatrist.
You can't just go, I'm justgoing to do that myself.
You need to work with them toto get to that and and what I
(37:04):
mean?
Dana Baltutis (37:05):
should families be seeing just the GP or should
they be asking to see apediatrician or a psychiatrist?
I mean you mentioned thosethree.
That was my next question.
Um, what?
What are your experiences withthat around that?
Rebecca Challoner (37:19):
it depends where you are, because every
state has different um ways ofdoing things and every country
has different ways of doingthings.
I'm based in Victoria, so inVictoria you would go to the GP
and then be referred either tothe pediatrician for a child or
a psychiatrist for an adult, orsometimes a child psychiatrist
can do it as well but generallypaediatrician for a child and a
(37:41):
psychiatrist for an adult, andthen they're the ones, you see,
who will then work on themedication.
There is a program, um I know,um my a good friend of mine, dr
Dr Di Grocott, is working on atthe moment throughout Australia
to train GPs so that they canprescribe, because getting into
(38:01):
psychiatrists and pediatriciansthere's such a backlog it's
really difficult.
So she's, I know, workingreally hard at the moment to try
and help facilitate this.
There's a lot of other peopleworking on not you know, there's
other people working on it aswell um, so that GPs can
prescribe and so.
So there are, and will continueto be some GPs who can um, but
(38:23):
I think as a general rule at themoment we go pediatrician or
psychiatrist and do you find isthere a confusion around ADHD
and autism?
Dana Baltutis (38:34):
do you know the, the diagnosis or anything?
Do people just jump to autismstraight away and they don't
look at the adhd?
You know what's your experiencearound that?
Rebecca Challoner (38:46):
definitely, because the problem is autism's
autism and adhd is adhd, butthere is overlap.
There are certaincharacteristics that they share
um and and and.
A lot of the time because autismhas had more um, I believe has
had more effective publicitythan what ADHD has.
Adhd, it's just been a lot ofnegative focus, I think a lot of
(39:08):
the time when they're whensomebody's got or struggling
with the characteristics thatare shared, people see it as oh,
it must be autism.
For example, sensory processingdysregulation, anxiety, there's
all these things that areshared between the two um and if
people see that as being anautistic thing, they go this
(39:30):
child, this child keeps havingmeltdowns, this child can't deal
with um textures, this child,you know, and then they go oh,
it must be autism, but actuallythese are adhd things as well.
So you've got it.
You can't just look at thosethings that are shared.
It's really important to lookat the things that aren't shared
as well in the bigger picture.
And of course, there's peoplewho are autistic and ADHD and it
(39:53):
gets, you know, for theirlittle brains it gets really
complicated because they've gotthese two different conditions
battling it out, you know so itcan be quite complicated.
Dana Baltutis (40:03):
I could talk about this the whole day.
I love this topic.
Anyway, let's move to mySpirited Child, your wonderful
organisation.
What have your latest projectsbeen and how are your projects
funded, Rebecca?
Rebecca Challoner (40:19):
So they're all funded by me well, by me and
the people who pay for ticketsto go to things.
Depending on the event, somethings end up being we manage to
raise enough money to fund itcompletely, some we don't, so it
depends on the thing um, butessentially we, um, we've got,
we do as many events as we can,we can do every.
(40:41):
Every event, I think, is reallyimportant because it's not just
teaching people strategies, butit's getting, it's reducing
stigma and getting theinformation out there.
And for every hundred peoplethat attend an event and learn
truthful, factual informationand beat that stigma, they can
then spread that awarenessfurther afield.
(41:03):
So I think I mean, in the 10years that my Spirited Child has
been running, I think I wouldlike to hope that it's had a
huge impact on ADHD awareness inthis country, because you know,
there's probably maybe 20,000people have attended our events,
maybe more, and all those20,000 will have gone away and
(41:25):
spread that awareness and spreadthat information.
So I think, or hope, that it'sdoing good work and trying to
make a bit of a difference doyou?
Dana Baltutis (41:36):
you guys have conferences right.
Do you um record thoseconferences?
Can people listen to them onafter if they can't attend them?
You know, face to face oronline, it depends which one it
is so each one's different um.
Rebecca Challoner (41:51):
Some of them do get recorded and people can
access the recording afterwards.
We also do online events whichare all recorded um with the big
conferences.
So we have every state has itsown big adhd conference um.
Next weekend we've got thewestern australia adhd
conference um with those becausethey can't all be recorded
(42:13):
based on the venue and thefacilities we have to hand.
We do at the end of the year wedo an online ADHD conference
that runs the exact same formatfor all those people that
couldn't make it to one of thebig ones, so it runs exactly the
same as the big ones.
We call that the australianadhd conference online.
(42:35):
And then we also do throughoutthe year.
We do, like little little ones,little online seminars, which
usually are just me, orsometimes me and someone else um
going through whatever thetopic might be, so they're more
sort of concentrated.
So we might do one specific torejection, sensitive dysphoria,
(42:55):
or specific to anxiety, orspecific to schooling or
whatever um, and those arealways recorded and parents can
find that on your website, myspirited child.
Dana Baltutis (43:06):
So I'm going to have those in the in, in the
notes, in the podcast notes aswell, so parents can go to the
link and then you you've got amailing list that you would mail
them reminders or informationyes, we have.
Rebecca Challoner (43:20):
Yes, it's on the website, on the front page.
Just scroll down a bit andit'll say, um, you know, join
the community and and, and Ithink it says subscribe now or
something.
There's a button, um, and whenthey subscribe and it's free, uh
, obviously, to join, and thenthen they get notified before
anybody else when there's anevent going up.
It also every so often willsend out, like information on
(43:43):
topics, on something to them,just you know.
So the newsletter is prettygood for that.
Dana Baltutis (43:49):
Because let's go to your website.
Oh, that's my next question.
On your website, you're alwayslooking for volunteers.
Could you please talk aboutthat?
What would the volunteers do?
Why do you need them?
Rebecca Challoner (44:00):
So we have the volunteers at events to help
us run events, because eventsall the events we do cost huge
amounts of money and we try andkeep the ticket cost as low as
we can.
So the ticket cost doesn'toften cover the whole cost of
the event and if it does, itonly just covers it.
So we use as many volunteers aspossible to help the staff run
(44:25):
the day.
So when someone volunteers italso means that they get
obviously they get full accessto the day for free.
So they come in, they give us abit of a hand during, like the
registration period or duringthe lunch period and things like
that, and they get full accessto all the speakers.
They get a certificate at theend of it and they get a free um
.
We give them a free workbook asa just, as a thank you.
(44:47):
So they kind of.
Dana Baltutis (44:48):
That's amazing.
Rebecca Challoner (44:49):
That's so generous of you well it just it
gives it it kind of, you knowit's a bit of a win-win.
So it gives us a bit of helpand it gives them you know,
people who can't afford it itgives them the opportunity to
attend and not have to pay forit.
Dana Baltutis (45:02):
So and parents.
Can they use ndis funds to goto your events?
Rebecca Challoner (45:08):
yeah, absolutely yeah, we can um, we
can build ndis, so um, as longas they've got core budget to do
it.
Um, or they're, and they mustbe plan managed or self-managed.
We can't because we're not ndisregistered, so it can't be ndia
managed um.
I think most people are eitherplan managed or, uh,
self-managed and then they justhave to email into our team
(45:30):
admin at my spirited jobcom andwe send out an invoice to their
plan manager and it gets paidand their tickets get sent to
them.
Dana Baltutis (45:36):
Oh, beautiful, beautiful.
And also on your website,Rebecca, you wrote we do this
because we understand thatnavigating through the
neurodiversity maze can beextremely difficult, and it is
even harder to find reliable andeffective strategies and
information that you can use tohelp improve your life and the
life of your child on a dailybasis.
(45:58):
So when I read that, myquestion was what is the
neurodiversity made and has itbecome clearer in the last few
years and, if so, how?
Rebecca Challone (46:11):
Neurodiversity essentially is the idea, is the
principle that all brains aredifferent.
Um, one uh miss mistake.
I guess that I hear a lot ispeople will say that child is
neurodiverse.
Well, all children areneurodiverse.
Neurodiverse means everybody,it means all brains.
Neurodivergent is brains thatare different from the typical,
(46:31):
so brains that are autistic oradhd or Tourette's or
intellectual disabilities thosebrains are neurodivergent.
The the idea of theneurodiversity maze, I guess
what I'm sort of referring tothere is the fact that it's
people don't understand whatneurodiversity is understanding
that there are different brainsand how they can be different
(46:52):
and why they can be differentand and they can be different
and what that means and thestrategies and information that
go with it.
Dana Baltutis (47:00):
Yeah, that's what it is, I guess, and I love that
you know, because I do think atthe moment you know we're in
the infancy stage ofneuroaffirming practices and
people are sort of mixing upneurodiverse, neurodivergent,
unless you've had the trainingaround it.
So I love what you're sayingand I do believe that
(47:21):
everybody's neurodiverse.
But the people that have got isthat specific.
Do they have to have adiagnosis to be neurodivergent
or they can identify themselvesas neurodivergent?
Rebecca Challoner (47:33):
Absolutely, they can identify themselves.
I think, 100%.
Nobody knows us better than us,right?
Like I got diagnosed when I gotdiagnosed.
But I knew, I always knew deepdown, that my brain worked
differently from the majority.
I always knew that and so itwasn't necessarily that my brain
(47:53):
was less or worse, but it wasdifferent and I always knew it
was different.
So I think people absolutelyhave a right to recognise that
in themselves, that their braindoesn't quite work like the
majority of people and it'sspecial in its own unique way.
Yeah, I don't think I don't seeany reason why people I'm a big
(48:16):
believer that we can identifyhowever we want to identify
because we are the boss ofourselves and if somebody sees
that in themselves, then yep,100%, they are neurodivergent
because there is sometimes thatdebate isn't there in the
community that I'mneurodivergent because I've got
a diagnosis.
Dana Baltutis (48:35):
You don't have a diagnosis, you're self-diagnosed
, so you are not neurodivergent.
I think that is changing, butit has, because I think again,
it's like a birth.
It's a new birth coming out.
You know all about that.
Neuroaffirming and respectingneurodiversity is really huge.
So what are some reliable andeffective strategies to help
(48:56):
parents, help their children,improve their life on a daily
basis?
Like what would be four gemsthat you could share with us.
Rebecca Challoner (49:07):
Oh, wow, wow.
There's thousands, thousandsand thousands, and it depends
whether the child's adhd,autistic neurodivergent got
anxiety.
What's going on, um?
So I guess some general onesthat would apply to all children
, um, and all parents.
Number one would be stopfocusing on you being the boss
(49:27):
and them doing as they're told.
That would be.
That would be, hands down, thebiggest and most valuable
strategy any parent can ever dois focus on building a
connection.
Connection is the number one,most important thing, not just
in self-esteem, not just inmental health, but in future
(49:47):
life success, life happiness,life health, everything.
There's um.
There's a huge study I talkabout this study a lot, but
there's a huge study done byharvard university, um, by dr
robert waldinger.
It's been going on for, Ibelieve, about 80 years, or just
over 80 years now, and it'sstill going.
And what they're trying to lookat is what's the one thing that
(50:09):
makes life just overall thebest, like total well-being, how
long you live, how healthy youare, how happy you are, how
successful you are, everythingand the one thing that impacts
that whole well-being in totalis connection.
So we need to move away fromtrying to teach our children
(50:32):
discipline and doing as they'retold and compliance and all
these things, and start movingtowards the most important thing
for them when they're older,which is connection.
And, as I said before, youcannot connect if you think
you're up here and they're downhere, and they just us on this
earth to do as they're told byyou.
Um, so my number one strategyfor all parents, no matter
(50:55):
what's going on with your child,is try and connect with them
and I guess, and I guess sorry,rebecca, to interrupt, but I
guess, like some parents will goyeah, yeah, I am connecting.
Dana Baltutis (51:07):
So they're doing it, but they're not feeling it
and thinking it and the childknows, the child knows the
intent behind it.
They're like, ah, you're justtrying to trick me, you're
trying to get me to do whatyou're doing right.
So it really needs to come fromyour heart.
You really really need tobelieve that connection and
you're just doing it fromyourself.
(51:28):
You're not doing it just fromyour head, because Rebecca said
right, yeah, and you can't bedoing it from yourself.
Rebecca Challoner (51:32):
You're not doing it just on your head,
because Rebecca said right, yeah, and you can't be doing it
because you think that I know ifI connect with them, they're
going to do as I tell them more.
Yes, because you're not doingthat, you're not connecting.
Connecting is about meeting inthe middle, like you've got to
meet them, in other words.
In other words, you've got tonot just pull them up to where
you are, but you've got to pullyourself down.
(51:52):
Now, for a lot of people, theiregos don't like that.
So you've got to be able to letyour ego go and meet them in
the middle, which means givingthem power, letting them make
choices.
I don't, you know a lot ofparents are afraid of letting
their kid make choices.
Let them make choices.
Where are you going on yournext holiday?
Let them decide, you know, andparents kind of go well, I'm
(52:16):
going to let my child decidewhere we go.
Yeah, why not?
Dana Baltutis (52:19):
I can hear everyone going what we're going
to Disneyland every year.
Rebecca Challoner (52:27):
But if we want kids who are going to grow
up and have high self-esteem andfeel truly connected to their
parents, we need to give them asmuch say in what goes on as we
give ourselves.
Does that mean they can't havethey, they don't have boundaries
?
No, um, you know, like my childwould love to drink red bull,
(52:47):
but he's 12 and he can't drinkRed Bull because it's really bad
for him.
So I explained to him that Iget that he wants it and I get
why he wants it.
But my job, part of my job, isto look after his health.
So he can't have it.
But that's not because I don'twant, I want to take that power
away from him.
It's just because I have a jobto do which is look after his
health.
Um, so I understand it sucksand I get it, but that's a rule
(53:12):
I just have to enforce for yoursafety, you know.
And so you can have boundaries,but you can explain those
boundaries in a way to say tothem look, I get it.
It's not because I think I'mbetter than you, I'm more
important than you, that I'mmaking this rule.
It's just because part of myjob is to look after your health
, you know, or whatever thething may be.
Um, and I think I think I think,um, a lot, of, a lot of parents
(53:34):
will find that very difficultto do.
Um, but it's just reallyimportant to go.
Do you know what it's?
I'm not the boss, because whenwe raise kids in an environment
where they're not worth as muchas us, what you know, their
(53:56):
developmental years are spent ina household where they are the
lowest person in thatenvironment.
What do we think that does totheir mental health and their
self-esteem when they're older?
You know, and do you know whatit's hard work?
My youngest son.
So I've lived by this and I'velived by it best with my
youngest son because I learnedit sooner with him, and so he's
(54:17):
for me sometimes a bit of anuisance because he argues
everything and he debateseverything and he thinks he
knows better than me and hewants his say and he 100%
believes% believes rightly sothat his opinion and his
decisions matter as much as mine.
So where we go and what we doare just as much his choice as
(54:40):
mine.
Is that hard work as a parent?
Hell, yes, it's really hard work, but I guarantee when he's
older he's going to besuccessful, he's going to be
happy and he's going to havehigh self-esteem and so, yes,
it's hard for me for the nexthe's 12, so the next at least
six years.
But at least you know, my mominadvertently because she didn't
mean to, but she justinadvertently kind of did the
(55:01):
same thing with me and and itmeans that I'm really bossy,
massive control freak, um, but Ido, I will advocate for myself
and I'm doing all right in life.
So I think, um, yeah, it's hardfor parents to do, but we've
got to look at the biggerpicture of what and um, the kids
that are, you know that doadvocate for themselves.
Dana Baltutis (55:22):
They teach you as well, because then you've got
to come up with the reasons.
You've got to start being moreself-reflective and thinking
about oh yeah, why, why am Iasking him or her to do that
right?
Rebecca Challoner (55:34):
absolutely, parents often will say it's like
automatic no's, parents theyknow to things just because they
just they just feel like theycan't say too many yeses.
You know, it's likeautomatically no.
I have this policy where I willalways try and do an automatic
yes.
So whenever they ask, ask foranything, my answer in my head
is automatically yes, and thenI'll look for a reason for it to
(55:56):
be no.
And I think that's reallyimportant, because if I can't
find a good reason for it to beno, then actually it's a yes.
But if we want kids to havegood self-esteem which
ultimately is everything it'severything, it's the most
important thing.
If we want them to have goodself-esteem which ultimately is
everything, it's everything,it's the most important thing if
we want them to have goodself-esteem, then we've got to
give them choice.
(56:16):
We have to give them control.
We all need a sense of controlif we're going to feel good
about ourselves and we have tolet them know that sometimes
their decisions are better thanus and sometimes they can decide
things, they can know thingsbetter than us.
We don't always have to be theboss.
We, you know and, um, yeah,it's hard for parents to do that
(56:39):
.
It's definitely a skill todevelop.
I do think it took me four yearsat least to really get that
down.
But, um, but I see the rewardnow.
Um, you know, when I look at mykids, especially my youngest,
my, my eldest, I reward.
Now, you know, when I look atmy kids, especially my youngest,
my oldest, I messed it up, youknow he's.
I didn't do it right, I triedto do the whole.
I'm the boss, you're the kid,and I look at them now and one's
(57:01):
got really high self-esteem andreally high confidence and you
can see this amazing littleself-advocate person and the
other has lower self-esteem andhigher anxiety.
So I've seen it, you know, doneboth ways and I definitely
would do it the second way again.
Dana Baltutis (57:21):
But what an amazing learning journey your
children have gifted you in thislifetime 100%.
Rebecca Challoner (57:29):
I've definitely learned.
I've learned so much out ofthem.
Um, but I think the good thingis, you know, I speak to
thousands and thousands ofparents and at least I'm not
just preaching like I've livedit and I've done it.
I think nobody wants to listento someone just preaching at
them about what they read in atextbook.
Dana Baltutis (57:46):
You know oh, rebecca chall, thank you so much
for today.
You are an inspiration, you areamazing.
You're such a great advocate.
I love the way you just wearyour heart on your sleeve and
you just say what you feel.
And everything that you saidtoday really resonated with me
(58:11):
and I'm sure it's going toresonate with many, many
families.
And I wanted you on the showbecause I know that it's really
hard for families to hear youjust from day to day.
So I know what my familieswould want to be asking you and
that's why I wanted to have youon that show.
And again, again, thank you somuch, because I know you're
(58:34):
really busy.
I know you've got the ADHDconference in WA next weekend
because I know Sandy Bootham ispresenting there and she's
already been a speaker here.
So thank you again.
Thank you so much for your timeand you know you are a gift to
the community.
So thank you, rebecca.
(58:56):
Thank you, it's been lovely tospeak to you, thank you.
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