What if challenging behaviours aren't problems to fix, but signals showing us how a child's brain works? Dr Vanessa Spiller, clinical psychologist and FASD expert, revolutionises our understanding of neurodivergent children through her groundbreaking "Mind the Gaps" model.
Drawing from both professional expertise and lived experience as a foster carer, Dr Spiller explains that neurodiversity simply means brain-based differences - everyone has strengths and weaknesses. The real challenge often lies in the gap between what children are asked to do and the abilities they actually possess. Her approach visualises these abilities as a wheel - for neurodivergent children, this wheel resembles something from the Flintstones: jagged, bumpy, and making progress difficult without proper support.
Dr Spiller shares powerful insights about executive functioning - the mental flexibility, impulse control, and ability to link cause and effect that many neurodivergent children struggle with. Rather than forcing children into environments that don't fit their brains, she advocates for finding windows into learning through special interests. "If a child loves trains," she explains, "using Thomas the Tank Engine scenarios to teach cause and effect will be far more effective than abstract examples."
Her most heartfelt message speaks directly to parents: "You are the greatest resource your child has." Not the speech therapist, not the psychologist, but you. This shifts the focus from parents feeling they need to be the perfect solution to recognising themselves as an ongoing, evolving resource - experimenting, learning, and modelling the very flexibility we hope to teach our children.
Whether you're a parent, educator, or therapist, this conversation will transform how you understand and support neurodivergent children. Subscribe now to hear more episodes that help build a world where every child truly belongs.
https://www.fasdtrainingaustralia.com/Mind-the-Gaps-book
https://www.amazon.com.au/Explained-Brain-Workbook-Educators-everything/dp/0995353212
https://www.fasdtrainingaustralia.com/
https://everymomentmatters.org.au/vanessas-story/
danabaltutis.com, mytherapyhouse.com.au, https://mytherapyhouse.com.au/your-childs-therapy-journey/ https://www.danabaltutis.com/services
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Today I'm joined by Dr Vanessa Spiller, clinical
psychologist, educator trainer,who has dedicated her career to
supporting children and youngpeople with complex needs,
including fetal alcohol spectrumdisorder or FASD, and other
forms of neurodivergence.
(00:23):
So welcome, Dr Vanessa, and I'mso happy to have you on the
podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Thank you, Dana, and thank you for having me.
I can't wait to get into ourconversation.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I can't either, because I heard you at the
Neurodivergence and WellbeingConference and I was so in awe
of how you look at people who'vegot some complex challenges and
how you help other people intheir life understand them, and
I thought I've got to have youon the podcast because, vanessa,
(00:57):
just in one little place is notenough.
I've got to put you all overthe place.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Well, you may come to regret that, dana, but, um,
thank you very much.
It was.
It was lovely and and we can doa bit of mutual admiration
because I got to listen to youspeak as well and and hear about
all the fabulous things thatyou're doing in the ways that I
guess you structure and have, Iguess, created a little universe
around supporting people withneurodivergence as well.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
So I think we're a good combination, oh, definitely
, definitely, and so when Ifirst met you at the
Neurodivergence and WellbeingConference, you presented your
Mind the Gaps model, and I wasso struck by how practical and
compassionate this model is andI have ordered the book and we
(01:46):
are going to be applying it atmy therapy house.
So, instead of seeingbehaviours as problems, you help
us understand them as signs ofthe brain at work, which I love,
and show that the realchallenge is often the gap
between what a child is beingasked to do and the skills or
abilities they actually have,which I love.
(02:07):
Your Mind the Gaps model givesfamilies, carers and educators
and therapists a way to bridgethose gaps, not by expecting
children to try harder or besomething different, but by
providing the right supports,adjusting the environment and
teaching skills in a way thattruly fit that particular
(02:28):
child's brain.
And that's what I took, youknow, from your presentation,
which I loved.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
What a great summary.
I'm going to steal that summary.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
I'll send it to you, okay.
And what I really admire is howyou combine your expertise as a
psychologist with your livedexperience as a foster carer.
Is that right, vanessa?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
absolutely.
It's definitely theintersection between being a mum
, being a carer and now, to youknow, a young adult.
So you know, I guess we'restill parents and carers even
though our kids grow intoadulthood and the intersection
with my world as a psychologistand the work that I do there in
(03:12):
terms of understanding people'sbrains.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
So it was kind of a perfect intersection really, oh,
I love that because that'swhere your heart comes in right,
the heart and soul.
It's not just cognitive butit's like a visceral and a lived
experience.
So through the fetal alcoholspectrum disorder training
Australia and JumpstartPsychology, you've made the
complexities of neurodivergenceaccessible, hopeful and deeply
(03:38):
human, and that's what I love.
And just before we got on thepodcast today, you were saying
you were in a meeting and youwere so happy because the young
person that you were supportingis actually liked in her
environment.
And I absolutely love that andyou know we resonate with that,
(03:58):
because liking the young personthat you're working with and
just really appreciating theiryou know, talents and their
character is 90% of the job doneas far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Absolutely a liking and I think the liking comes out
of understanding the youngperson.
And you know, even in this,even in this meeting that I was
in, you know, one of the thingsI loved about and and you know,
even in this, even in thismeeting that I was in, you know,
one of the things I loved aboutit was, you know, we were
talking about a particularbehavioral symptom, so a
challenge that this young personhad had recently, and as we
(04:36):
were dissecting what was goingon and again, we were looking at
, you know, this young person'sbrain-based strengths and
weaknesses, and we were talkingabout, oh, you know, when we
realized what was going on, whenwe looked at what was
underlying this particularbehavioral symptom, which was,
you know, something to do withpersonal hygiene, we all were
(04:56):
able to go.
I can't believe we missed that.
I can't believe, actually, thereason this thing was happening
that was leading to, you know,personal hygiene issues and
physical health issues, wasactually because this thing that
we understood and we alreadyknew about this young person's
brain and the fact that theywere really concrete and really
(05:16):
literal and we had assumed thattheir understanding of you know
what it means to to do thisparticular hygiene thing was a
bit personal so I won't go intoit.
Yeah, yeah, they were just beingreally concrete and literal and
we'd missed it and this thinghad turned into, you know, quite
a big issue for it, and then wewere just kind of like, man,
(05:38):
how do we miss that?
We know this about their brain.
So we actually have to take itout of being this nuanced thing
that this person has to usetheir own interceptive skills to
understand and we just have toturn it into a habit and a
routine, um, because they'reexcellent routine, you know,
they're so good at that, andthat was as simple as the issue
(05:59):
was, um, but it was really aboutus going.
How do we forget this aboutthis person's brain?
We, you know, we know.
Yeah, isn't it fascinating?
Speaker 1 (06:09):
because sometimes these little things that
probably right in front of us,we don't see because we're
trying to complicate something.
You know, and, and it is sotrue, when we really look
through the lens of compassionand kindness, and that this
person is a person and wherethey're at developmentally, what
(06:30):
can we do to help them, youknow, overcome some of the
challenges that I'm sure if theyknew that they were doing it,
they wouldn't want to do it.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
They were just doing what their brain always does
with a whole range of otherthings, and they just happened
to be doing it with this on thisoccasion and we were just slow
to pick it up.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Oh man, I love the way your brain thinks, Vanessa.
I love it.
So let's dive in.
And this season, we are talkingabout neurodiversity.
And when you think aboutneurodiversity in your life and
in your work, what does it meanto you personally?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
So to me, neurodiversity is pretty simple,
really.
It's not overly complicated,it's really.
I'm referring to, and I'mthinking about, just simple
brain-based differences, thefact that everyone has a brain,
everyone has strengths andweaknesses, and it's about
recognizing those.
It's about helping people knowand understand their brains, and
(07:40):
so for me, that's the mostimportant thing we can do is to
know and understand our brainand to help know and understand
somebody else's brain.
And once we can do that, Ithink it enables us to create
and co-create a life that fitsthe brain that we have.
(08:03):
And I guess some of us do thatreally intuitively, like I mean,
I didn't set out to create, Ididn't go, oh gosh, this is the
kind of brain I have, these aremy strengths and weaknesses.
I think I'll go and create alife that fits that.
I kind of did it reallyintuitively and that's because I
have a very neurocommon brain,I think.
But for other people that isn'thow their brains work and for
(08:27):
some people they need someassistance in understanding the
brain that they've got, and theyneed some assistance in helping
other people understand thebrain that they've got.
But we can still create a lifethat fits them in their brain.
To me, neurodiversity is reallyabout understanding those
brain-based both strengths andweaknesses.
(08:49):
I don't see weaknesses as aproblem, so I know some people
don't like the term weaknesses,but I have no problem with
weaknesses, I think, mainlybecause I know I have lots of
them and there's lots of thingsI'm working on.
So I think that's the humancondition.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
That's not a judgment and they're almost like, not so
much weaknesses but things inmy life that I just don't, I
don't follow up on because Ichoose not to.
They're not my interest area.
Basically, let's go there.
I've got interest areas andnon-interest areas.
I'm just really interestedbecause I worked with a little
(09:29):
guy in the last couple of daysand you know he was.
He's almost 10 years old andhe's not even going to school
because school thinks that he istoo hard.
And I just kept thinking aboutyour model when I'm looking at
this boy now that I've heardabout your model, and just
thinking about what the gaps arefor him and that he doesn't
(09:53):
have the skills.
So he basically he's diagnosedwith various diagnoses and one
of them is that he does not haveimpulse control right.
So that means he just goes anddoes it and needs it and soon as
he sees it because his visualsystem is so strong and it's
almost like whew, I'm goingthere and now I'm going and now
(10:16):
I'm taking it and now I'mthrowing it right, and he hasn't
been able to think through that.
And what's really interestingis that people are working with
him, trying to work with him ina very structured way, you know,
sitting down with timers andcutting and pasting and and
everything else.
And I can see this little guyand he's looking at the timer
(10:38):
and he's cutting.
And if anyone saw me now, likeI'm actually looking at it
another way and my hand is herenext to my right ear and he's
actually doing that because heknows it's a routine.
But there's no joy in it,there's no meaning in it,
there's no purpose in it, Likehow can we help kids that are?
(10:59):
I guess they're complex, butthey're really like running
around and you know really justanything they see they'll grab
or they'll get up and they'll dosomething they have.
You know, some parents findthat really hard to go down the
medication route this child has.
They have just gone down themedication route.
That's helped him a lot.
(11:20):
I always say it just frees upthe space in the brain, right,
yeah?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
create some wiggle room for some kids and they just
need that wiggle room to beable to develop some skills or
to slow their thinking down andto help them problem solve
better.
It's a wiggle room creator.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that and, like the thingis, I always keep thinking
about well, what isneuroaffirming practice?
You know, is neuroaffirmingpractice that we superimpose our
ideas of what the eight ornine-year-old should be doing,
or do we support him around hisinterests, like, you know,
bubble play and things like that, even if developmentally he's
(12:02):
at the, you know, like aone-year-old child that likes to
explore?
So what are your thoughtsaround that?
You know, when we're looking atschool and things like that,
because I see some schools arenot as neuroaffirming as they
could be yet and I say yetbecause we are going down that
(12:24):
way, 100% yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Look, it's really challenging and I get it.
I have an enormous amount ofempathy for schools.
You know, I thought I wanted tobe a teacher very early in my
career and you know I did a yearof teaching at uni and went oh
my gosh, do I really want 30kids in my classroom?
And I was like, no, I'd ratherbe in a room with just one
(12:46):
person.
I think I can be more effectivewith just one person.
And you know, when you look ata classroom, your average
classroom has got, you know it'sprobably got I don't know 15
neuro common brains that arewired in a particular way, and
then it's got you know anotherfive brains that are you
particular way, and then it'sgot you know another five brains
that are, you know, moreneurodiverse, that are wired in
(13:09):
this way, and another three thatmight be wired in a slightly
different way.
You know it's a, you know it'sa juggling act, but everyone has
a right to an education withthe brain that they've got, and
so we do need to find some waysof solving that, but you know so
.
But I think we have to find away through that, and a part of
(13:30):
that is by understanding each ofthe brains that we have in our
space and when it comes tothings like executive
functioning.
So when you describe thatlittle person there, I think of
two brain domains.
So executive functioning, sothat mental flexibility, your
ability to manage your impulses,the ability to link cause and
effect, you know, in terms ofbrain domains it's just a domain
(13:53):
that gets kids in so muchtrouble in environments that
have an expectation that theyhave.
Good, that's one of the keyexpectations of being in a
classroom is that you'reactually going to have average
executive functioning for yourage.
That's a problem if you don'thave that common, you know,
(14:16):
executive functioning for yourage, because the whole room
isn't set up for you, theplayground isn't set up for you,
and so you can't meet thedemands of that environment.
And when you can't meet thedemands of that environment,
then you're going to respondwith the things that you do have
.
And quite often that's when we,these kids, kick into fight or
flight and they become flightersor fighters, or they become
(14:36):
some combination of the twofight or flight and they become
flighters or fighters, or theybecome some combination of the
two, and so you can try tosuperimpose that on a young
person, but they don't growexecutive functioning skills
overnight.
You know this takes decades todevelop, even in your common
people.
So, like you know, it justdoesn't work at the end of the
(14:58):
day.
If it's super imposing it wasgoing to work, it would have
worked a long time ago and weactually wouldn't have any of
these kids that have behavioralsymptoms in the classroom.
So I think we have no choicebut to adapt to their brain and
go okay, this young persondoesn't have great executive
functioning skills just yet.
So what's our window into this?
(15:18):
And typically our window intoit is the things that are there,
areas of hyperfocus, forexample.
There are areas of specialinterest, and so, again, we're
probably going to have to startwith those so that we can get
some opportunistic learning andfind and use them as a way of
starting to open up executivefunctioning, helping to link
(15:41):
cause and effect.
I was talking about this onlythis morning.
If you've got someone who issuper fascinated with trains and
they're really cognitivelyrigid and they're really
inflexible with the things theywant to talk about and they're
having lots of trouble withtheir executive functioning, we
can't sit them down and starttalking to them about cause and
effect and using some examplethat's really random that won't
(16:04):
light up their brain pathways.
You know we're going to have togo.
Okay, you know how do we startto open up cognitive flexibility
by using a Thomas the TankEngine scenario.
You know how do we go.
You know, thomas, you knowreally wanted to go to this
station, but the station masterwas saying actually, thomas, you
need to go and do these twoother jobs before you come back
(16:26):
to this station.
Um, so again, you know you can.
You can try to impose thatmodel of no, we're going to sit
down and talk about cause andeffect, and we're going to talk
about it in regards to I don'tknow cats.
We're going to talk about it inregards to I don't know cats.
We're going to talk about it inregards to your behaviour in
the classroom and the zones ofor in the playground, or what
you did to Johnny in theplayground.
(16:47):
Yeah, or which, of course, justgoes straight over their heads.
There's no engagement.
They might nod and they might,at their very best, kind of go
oh, yeah, yeah.
At their worst they just ignoreyou and their executive
functioning comes out rightthere and then in front of you,
or we pivot and we go okay, wecan have a window into executive
(17:10):
functioning using this areathat lights up their brain
pathways, and that's our firstplace.
And over time, if they developsome of those skills, then we
can expand it to these moreboring areas that don't light up
their brain pathways.
But we've got to go through theareas that work first.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Sorry, vanessa, and often I find that it's through
relationship that we can expand.
So when they trust us and whenwe are in their world, then they
go okay, you're okay becauseyou're talking my language.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Yeah, you understand me, you like me, you seem to get
me, or at least you're tryingto get me, and kids are pretty
good at working that out.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
So I want to talk about the important role that
you've played in this space ofadvocating for kids, and you
know the books that you'vewritten and all the work that
you do with the complex childrenyou work with today.
So could you tell us a littlebit about what you do now and
what is it that fuels yourpassion for creating belonging
(18:16):
and connection?
This could take our full 45minutes.
Well, I just love listening toyou, vanessa, and I'm sure the
listeners do too.
You're just compelling tolisten to.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Well, thank you, that's very generous.
You know, I think the thing,the first thing, that the first
role that I played was reallythat role as a mum.
And you know it was a role andmy passion came out of absolute,
sheer desperation.
You know being plunged in theworld of parenthood and wanting
(18:49):
to do a good job and having thisreally complex.
You know, really neurodiverseyoung person and me just trying
desperately to work him out andworking, you know, desperately
trying to understand him and andsome of it probably was also
based on fear, because I couldsee the trajectory, I could see
(19:11):
where things were heading if we,if I, didn't manage to
understand him and if I didn'tmanage to help him and me create
a world that gave him the, youknow, the best possible life
that he could have.
So I guess you know that thatpassion just comes out of, you
know, love we all fall in lovewith our kids and you know
(19:31):
wanting the best for them.
But yeah, and some of it didcome with.
You know, at that sense of fear, what happens if we don't?
What happens if we don't?
What happens if I don'tunderstand him?
What happens if other peopledon't understand him in this
world?
And you know I work in the areaof FASD, so I know what those
outcomes are and the outcomesare really dire and really
(19:51):
depressing.
So for me I just wasn't happywith that as an outcome for him
and, as like most parents, thatwas just like no, that's, that's
not where we're going.
And that did intersect, I guess,with the other roles that I
play, which would be, you know,the professional roles that I
have, so working as a clinicalpsychologist, and I worked in
(20:12):
child protection and familycounselling.
So, you know, trying to supportfamilies, you know, in really
complex circumstances.
And then, you know, trying tosupport families, you know, in
really complex circumstances.
And then, you know, trying tosupport adults.
And I just became reallyinterested in brains and the
role that the brain that we haveplays, I guess, on our life and
how our life plays out.
(20:33):
And then you know, again, out ofnecessity, you know I wanted to
be able to communicate that toother people because, again,
neurodiversity, neurocomplexity,these multi-layered things, you
know they're incrediblycomplicated and as professionals
we kind of love the languageand we love the jargon, but I
really quickly worked out thatdidn't help anybody else, so I
(20:55):
had to have a language forcommunicating this with his
teachers.
I had to have a language forcommunicating this with his
teachers.
I had to have a language forcommunicating it with schools
and principals and speechtherapists and OTs and
pediatricians and the soccercoach and you know every single
person in the lives of thesekids.
So that drove me, I guess, tobe an educator.
(21:18):
It drove me to write books anddevelop resources that try to
make these really, reallycomplex things as simple as they
can be and to make them reallyclear and succinct so that
people don't need to get a PhDto work out what do I do, how do
(21:38):
I best support this youngperson.
But we sort of all got drivenagain by necessity and by trying
to make other people's livessimpler as well, because I think
people want to do the best thatthey can to support these kids,
but they have no idea how.
They don't know what that lookslike on a day-to-day basis and
(21:59):
in everyday life.
And I love practicality and Ilike simplicity.
So I guess I've tried to createa whole system that people can
apply and so they can learnthese skills themselves.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
And that's your.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Mind the Gaps system.
Yeah, mind the Gaps.
The first one was actually, Icall it explain by brain.
So explain by brain is thebroader framework and that is.
You know, I didn't invent allthe different components of it.
I pinched from reallyknowledgeable people like Diane
Melbourne, who has theneurobehavioral approach for
(22:35):
FASD, from people like RossGreen, who has the collaborative
and proactive solutions, andpeople like Bruce Perry, who
have this phenomenal bodily ofresearch around trauma.
What I found is there was justshortcomings in all of those
frameworks and models.
They weren't quite right foreveryone with FASD, and so I've
(22:56):
basically tweakedaked those.
I've taken the best out ofthose frameworks and the best
out of that research and thebest out of that evidence base,
and then I've gone okay, this iswhat I know about how alcohol
in particular impacts on brains,but I also know how, I guess,
just brains work.
So how, how do I tweak this toto fit all of these really
(23:19):
diverse brains that I'msupporting?
And so that's my overallExplained by Brain framework,
and then the Mind the Gap stufffalls into what we call ability
mapping.
That's again, this is one ofthe practical tools that I use
to understand brains, explainbrains, describe behavioral
symptoms, so that people canunderstand why people do the
(23:41):
things that they do, even whenwe have no idea what might be
driving that or we think it'sdriven by something else, and to
design those supports andaccommodations and to work out
how we teach missing skills.
So it's sort of that.
Yeah, it's a component of thatbroader Explained by Bain
framework.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
And I love when you presented it was very visual
because you presented it as awheel and then when you mapped
where kids were on that wheel,the wheel wasn't round, the
wheel was jaggedy like theFlintstones.
Yes, and if the child's got aFlintstone wheel that they're
going on, I mean life is goingto be really rough and sometimes
(24:19):
the child's got a Flintstonewheel that they're going on.
I mean life is going to bereally rough and sometimes the
car's not even going to goforward.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
So I love that.
It's not going straight, it'snot going fast, it's a bumpy,
hard, really effortful wheel.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, yeah, just like in the Stone Ages.
Effortful wheel.
Yeah, yeah, just like in thestone ages.
So what with that?
When we talk about, you know,supporting kids with their skill
development, where there isthat gap, does that mean that,
is it like only psychologiststhat can do it, or is it a whole
team approach?
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Oh, it's absolutely a whole team approach.
Everyone has to be involved infilling in that gap because we
live in.
That gap is the world.
So it's everything that happensin the world.
That's the school, that's whenwe go to the cinema, it's when
we go to the shops, it's when wego to have a doctor's
appointment.
The world lives in that gap.
(25:19):
So we take our brain into everysingle environment that we go
into.
So we need supports andaccommodations.
Wherever our brain goes, weneed supports and accommodations
, and so it has to be somethingthat is, yeah, that is
contributed to by absolutelyeverybody in the world and
(25:40):
obviously health professionals.
We have a very particular rolein that in terms of invite, in
identifying where the gaps.
You know where supports andaccommodations needed, what some
of those might look likehelping other people, problem
solve, what, what they helpingpeople.
You know I often call myself atranslator, so you know I try to
(26:04):
translate this young person'sbrain into the environment that
they're in and you know what dowe need so that you can
understand them and they canunderstand you.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
So is the translator usually a psychologist, or it
can be any professional.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Look, it can be anyone who understands brains.
So, yeah, I mean, often it is apsychologist.
Because we love brains, we'realways talking about brains.
Oh, yes, definitely.
Yes, it's a kind of our breadand butter.
I think it's very natural forus to go there.
But, yeah, it can be a speechtherapist, an OT.
It can be some reallywell-educated parents and carers
(26:44):
, Like some of the parents andcarers I support.
You know they have some of themshould have a master's degree
in brains because they've reallydone the research and looked
into it.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
But yeah, often it is people like psychologists, just
because we love brains and thisframework you wrote it around
FASD is is it can be applied toany child.
Right, that's got complex.
Yeah, because that's what Ifound when I was listening to
your session.
I thought, oh, this can applyto so many children.
(27:18):
You don't only have to havefetal alcohol syndrome disorder.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
A hundred percent because everyone's got the same
brain domains.
I can ability map myself, I canability map my mum, I can
ability map my son, I canability map every client who
comes and sits in front of me.
Now I don't need to and I don'tability map everybody, although
probably subconsciously, I'vestarted to do that.
But you know, the vast majorityof people who come and see me
(27:46):
in my office, they don't come inwith FASD, they come in with a
whole variety of things.
And you know, as ourconversation unfolds and as I
get to know them in their life,I'm also getting to know them in
their brain.
And if it's appropriate, I doability mapping.
You know, people love again andmany will have.
(28:10):
They will have some kind ofdiagnosis or they suspect they
have a diagnosis, particularlyof things like autism and ADHD.
But also you know some of myadults who've been told that
they have borderline personalitydisorder, which, again, it's
just, it's not a very helpfuldiagnosis and it doesn't explain
(28:32):
much.
So but if we ability map theirbrains and go, you know what is
it that you struggle with?
Well, it's emotional regulation.
It's that.
You know, my stress system getskicked into fight or flight.
There's certainly some executivefunctioning difficulties, lots
of problems with impulsiveness,not really understanding the
consequences of my actions orbeing able to predict them well.
(28:53):
Sometimes I get reallyoverwhelmed.
So you know, that's aprocessing speed.
You know, sometimes I'm notreading the room well, so that
might be adaptive functioningand social skills.
Again, that's far more.
I think that's much more usefulfor them to understand.
Oh, these are just some of theweaknesses that I have, but I
(29:15):
also have strengths in this andI can build some skills in this
and my psychologist can help mewith understanding that.
They can help me to to work outwhat kind of environments I'm
going to be best suited to.
And it's, it's without judgment, it's just a description,
there's nothing functional andit's more.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Look it, it's not strengths-based, but it is
strengths-based, if you knowwhat I mean.
Yeah, so you know.
If you get a diagnosis, it'sreally like you've got a label
on your forehead and you'rethinking, oh my gosh, I've got
bipolar, I've got ADHD, I've gotASD, I've got this, I've got
that and all of thatsubjectivity you walk around
(30:00):
with that, you know, in the backof your mind.
So I love that, because it'svery individualized, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (30:06):
exactly, and it's like well, how do I best live my
life?
Knowing my strengths and myweaknesses, what, no matter what
everyone else calls them, ifsomeone gives them a diagnosis,
fine, but how do I live my lifewith these, these brain-based
strengths and weaknesses that Ihave?
Speaker 1 (30:22):
I love it.
I think I'm gonna map myselfwhen I get your book.
I'm gonna start with myself.
I'll start with myself.
So, vanessa, many of the peoplelistening are parents today.
If you could share just onemessage with them, what would
you really want them to takeaway?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Oh, just one message I guess it's a message that I
tell lots of parents and that isthat you are the greatest
resource your child has.
There is no, you know.
The speech therapist isn't thegreatest resource they have, or
their psychologist, their youknow behavior support
practitioner.
You, you, you are theirgreatest resource.
(31:02):
Educate yourself, educateeverybody that you know so that
they also understand your child.
Care for yourself, because, asthe greatest resource you know,
you're here for a long time, nota good time.
We want longevity, and thatmeans you looking after yourself
and making sure that you meetyour needs, but don't be afraid
(31:25):
to create and co-create ameaningful and purposeful life
for your child.
You can do that together, and Ithink that's our job as parents
is to imagine a future for ourchildren and work with them to
work out what it is that theywant for their life.
Yeah, and our job is to workout well, how do we get them
(31:47):
there.
So, you know, I think there'snobody who's a more important
resource to that than you.
So you've got to look afteryourself.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that I was actuallyworking with a mum today and we
do a little baseline assessment.
So I do a six-week program withthe parents and we score.
She scored herself at thebeginning and today was the
fifth week and she scoredherself full marks about feeling
confident in herself.
Oh isn't that great.
And I was like this is what thework is about, because she's
(32:22):
also supporting a young childthat you know has got some
challenges, but she could seethe future and that she was the
resource right, that she, thatshe was the child strength.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
I love that.
And you don't have to knoweverything to have that
confidence.
You do have to go.
I can problem solve and I canproblem solve with them and you
don't have to.
You won't know all the answers.
I have the skills to work itout and to work with them.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
And also, we talked a lot about problem solving and
that problem solving isn't aboutcoming up with a solution first
pop.
Like I know, for me as aproblem solver it could take
many different solutions until Icome up with oh, there it is,
you know.
So having confidence that thesolution will come, whether it's
(33:12):
going to be from yourself,confidence that the solution
will come, whether it's going tobe from yourself, from someone
else, something just drops intoyour lap from somewhere, or you
have an aha moment while you'rebrushing your teeth.
You know that's the way thebrain works, right?
It's not like.
And the more you actually focuson the problem, the harder it
is to solve often, I find andlook, good scientists right.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Good scientists, they love the experiment.
You know that's what we do andwe're experimenting with a
theory that I think this issomething that will make a
difference for my young person.
And you go out and you conductthe experiment and a good
scientist isn't looking for aparticular outcome.
I mean we're kind of well'tlooking for a particular outcome
(33:55):
.
I mean we kind of wereobviously hoping for a
particular kind of outcome whenwe were doing experiments with
our kids.
A really good scientist isinterested in the process and
says, okay, well, now I can rulethis one out, now I can rule
this one out, and now I cantweak this one, and I think we
got closer with this.
And so actually I think we needto do a little bit more of this
(34:15):
and I think that is a much.
That's a much healthier way toview the world in general and
we're not a failure.
We can't fail if we justcontinue to conduct these
experiments.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
That's right, and I think, when you were saying that
you are the greatest resourcefor your child, we also want
parents not to go gasp.
It's like you are perfect theway you are for your child and,
whatever happens, you willcontinue to grow.
Even if you think you're notcontinuing to grow, you are.
(34:50):
Just by one little interaction,just by seeing something,
hearing something, and the rightthings will come to you at the
right time.
That is what I believe and Ithink the parents that can
navigate their world like thatwithout fretting about oh, I'm
not good enough, I can't do that.
You know all these limitingbeliefs and decisions and I
always say to parents if youhave those, go and see a
(35:12):
professional, go and see apsychologist, because sometimes,
you know, our filters get inthe way of being the best we can
be in the moment with whatwe've got, and I guess that's
why you're there, vanessa, butyou know you are in Brisbane,
you're not here in Adelaide.
So so I think you know, but weneed to be, you know, reaching
(35:35):
out to professional help,because I do know a lot of
parents put themselves last andthey will get all the help they
can for their child but fortheir own mental, spiritual,
physical, emotional health.
They'll put that on the backburner and that's the, that's
the, the part that needs to benourished right.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Well, you've got to look after the resource, like
the resources, we've got tonurture it and support it and
we've got to let it rest when itneeds to rest and we've got to
grow it when it needs to grow.
Yeah, not the outcome.
No, we're not the solution,we're the resource.
So we have to.
We don't want to burn up all ofthe resource again.
(36:15):
We're here, we want to keepnourishing it.
We want to keep growing theresource and I think people
mistake being a resource withbeing the solution.
Oh, yes, we're, we're aresource.
Yes, a really important one.
We're not the only one, but weare not the solution.
No, and I love that we are notthe answer and we're never going
(36:38):
to find a answer Again.
I think so many parents I mean,and I know I wanted an answer,
goodness knows, I would haveloved an answer and it really
sucks that there's not an answer.
But the answer was I am theresource and I'm gonna have to
keep conducting experiments, youknow, potentially for the rest
(36:59):
of my life, and that's actuallyokay and and also when you're
conducting those experiments,you're growing yourself as a
human being.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
You know so that your child is your best growth.
You, you know in personaldevelopment.
For you it was alsoprofessional development, but
they are the key to yourpersonal development, you know,
as a human being, which I thinkis great, exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
And we're modelling.
We're modelling exactly what itis we want them to learn.
You know, I want my son tolearn.
You're going to make mistakes.
You're not going to get itright every time.
I want him to learn.
Life can be frustrating, but wecan cope and we can learn and
we can change and we can learnto be more flexible, Even when
that doesn't come naturally tous.
(37:44):
We can learn to be better at it.
So we actually role model thethings that we want them to do
as well.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
So I think that's lovely, that's huge, and I think
that openness isn't it, thatopenness to question yourself.
I know that there've beenparents that I've worked with
and it's always that, oh, mychild's got the problem and my
child's got this diagnosis andthis and this, but they're not
really looking at their ownprofile.
It's really important thatwe're open and we're looking at
(38:12):
our own profile.
It's really important thatwe're open and, as we're looking
at our own profile, it's okay.
It's not a judgment.
And I guess people that havestill got that fear, that shame,
that guilt, sadness, you knowcarrying that.
That's again where I believethat the psychologist is very
helpful for working with thoseand just normalising because
(38:33):
it's normal.
You know, everybody's got thatin different ways, yeah, but it
can be very personal for some.
Oh my gosh, okay, look how muchI can talk to you, okay.
So I like to ask all my gueststhis question what do you see as
your own neurodiverse strengthor difference that makes you
uniquely, you?
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Actually, I love that question when I because you
sent me the questions beforehand, or some of the questions
beforehand, and this one Iactually because I don't think
anyone's ever asked me this andI love it as a question and my
answer I think the people aroundme would agree.
I think a certain degree ofhyperfocus, you know obviously
(39:18):
talking about, there are certaintopics that light up my brain
pathways FASD, complexneurodiversity, pickleball.
There's a couple of areas that,for whatever reason, they light
up my brain pathways and I canjust dive into them and I have,
in terms of those particulartopics, I have incredible
(39:40):
attention to detail.
It's kind of a bit like rocketfuel.
I feel really passionate aboutit.
It enables me to be creative,and so I guess I think I'm just
really lucky that I've foundthese areas.
And again, that just happens tobe the way my brain is wired.
So when I find something thatlights up my brain pathways, I
(40:01):
can just delve right into it ata level of detail that most
people would just find tedious,and I can go yeah, but what does
that look like here?
Yeah, but what does that looklike there?
So how would we support that inthis environment?
Um, so my brain.
It loves to solve puzzles, itloves to find uh, I don't know
(40:24):
that.
It loves to solve puzzles, itloves to contemplate puzzles.
It's always looking to create aframework that that helps me to
understand stuff.
And then then I want to, then II get really passionate and I
want to explain it to someoneelse, because I get really
excited and I go let me tell youabout my framework.
What do you think about thisframework?
And then they go oh, yeah, no,it's a really good one.
Oh, except this.
And then I'm like oh right,yeah, I hadn't thought about
(40:46):
that.
Let me go, and let me go andthink about that some more and
I'll tweak my framework.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
I love that so much.
Oh, my goodness, when you talklike that, I can just hear
myself and I know my husbandprobably will be listening to
this and going.
She's like you, she's exactlylike you, because.
I do think that as well.
You know, and it's reallyimportant to find and own what
you're good at and what yourstrength is and what makes you
(41:12):
uniquely you and you know theother stuff they're not.
Like I say, it's not yourweakness, it's just that it's
not your focus area for thislifetime.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Yeah, and you know we get the choice about that.
You know, certainly, as I getolder, I'm saying that you know
what?
I don't have to structure mycareer in a way that sits me in
one particular job and I do thatjob, and I do that five days a
week, and you know it's in oneparticular setting.
I can actually go.
(41:42):
Oh, hang on, my brain actuallylikes variety.
My brain likes, you know, doingsome creative sort of writing
or you know, trying to, you know, design some kind of system.
It likes to do some education.
It likes sitting in front ofpeople, and as I've gotten older
, I'm like, oh, actually I get asay in this.
(42:03):
I can actually do that.
I can structure my work life tofit this brain that I have and
some of these things that I docare about and that I'm really
passionate about, and I'm reallygrateful for that.
That's an amazing thing to have.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
And so are we.
We're really, really grateful,because then we get the benefits
.
And to finish, what gives youhope when you think about the
future, a future whereneurodiversity is truly
celebrated and belonging ispossible for everyone.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
What gives me hope is , I think, my son.
You know, and and even I think,before we got started I was
talking about this particularclient that I'd just been in a,
you know, in a, you know, aconference call about.
What I love is that, again,they, they both came with this
(42:52):
incredible complexity and youknow lots of adversity, without
any doubt, but it gives me hopebecause, you know, for my son, I
see that he is created and iscreating this life that has
purpose and meaning for him, um,and you know it has all the
(43:12):
things that are important to himaround work, and work looks and
is structured differentlyperhaps to how it might be for
other people.
He's got relationships, he'sgot family, he has his special
interests, he's got some thingsthat light up his brain pathways
, he likes to travel and hecontributes to the community,
(43:34):
like for me that's so importantthat you know he's not just a
part of the community but he hasa role and he has
responsibilities in thecommunity and he's aware of
those and they're not a burden,they're actually, you know,
something that is, I think,really important to him and I
think that gives me hope andI've seen this in, I guess, this
(43:57):
other.
You know, in multiple of theyoung people I support, where we
start to see things sort ofturning and we start to see them
actually I don't know finding away of living that actually
works for them, a form ofschooling that works for them.
They have some dreams aroundyou know what kind of work they
(44:19):
want to do in the future and howthey want to contribute to
society and and to otherpeople's lives.
And for me, you know that'sagain that's what everyone wants
for their life.
So when I see young people withreally complex neurodiversity
striving for that and achievingthat that's I don't know that,
just you know it fills my heart.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
It's lovely, it does, and it makes the world better
right, because it's tapestry.
We're all a beautiful tapestryand we all need all the
different colours in thattapestry, exactly.
Wow, this really, this reallymade me feel up and this really
drove my brain and I'm just likeI was a bit tired before we got
on and now I'm just like whoa,I'm wired, I'm off to conquer
(45:05):
the world.
Vanessa, see you later.
I'm just a psychologist, I'mfine.
So thank you so much for beingpart of the Empowered Parent
Podcast, vanessa.
It was just-.
Thank you for inviting me.
You were so inspiring and ifthis conversation has inspired
the listener, you, I'd love foryou to share the episode with a
(45:27):
friend, leave a review or followalong so you don't miss any
episodes of our Neurodiversityseries in the future.
And together we can build aworld where every child, every
parent and every individualfeels they truly belong.
So thank you again, vanessa,for being part of the podcast
series.
Thank you so much.
Today I'm joined by Dr Vanessa Spiller, clinical
psychologist, educator trainer,who has dedicated her career to
supporting children and youngpeople with complex needs,
including fetal alcohol spectrumdisorder or FASD, and other
forms of neurodivergence.
(00:23):
So welcome, Dr Vanessa, and I'mso happy to have you on the
podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Thank you, Dana, and thank you for having me.
I can't wait to get into ourconversation.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I can't either, because I heard you at the
Neurodivergence and WellbeingConference and I was so in awe
of how you look at people who'vegot some complex challenges and
how you help other people intheir life understand them, and
I thought I've got to have youon the podcast because, vanessa,
(00:57):
just in one little place is notenough.
I've got to put you all overthe place.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Well, you may come to regret that, dana, but, um,
thank you very much.
It was.
It was lovely and and we can doa bit of mutual admiration
because I got to listen to youspeak as well and and hear about
all the fabulous things thatyou're doing in the ways that I
guess you structure and have, Iguess, created a little universe
around supporting people withneurodivergence as well.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
So I think we're a good combination, oh, definitely
, definitely, and so when Ifirst met you at the
Neurodivergence and WellbeingConference, you presented your
Mind the Gaps model, and I wasso struck by how practical and
compassionate this model is andI have ordered the book and we
(01:46):
are going to be applying it atmy therapy house.
So, instead of seeingbehaviours as problems, you help
us understand them as signs ofthe brain at work, which I love,
and show that the realchallenge is often the gap
between what a child is beingasked to do and the skills or
abilities they actually have,which I love.
(02:07):
Your Mind the Gaps model givesfamilies, carers and educators
and therapists a way to bridgethose gaps, not by expecting
children to try harder or besomething different, but by
providing the right supports,adjusting the environment and
teaching skills in a way thattruly fit that particular
(02:28):
child's brain.
And that's what I took, youknow, from your presentation,
which I loved.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
What a great summary.
I'm going to steal that summary.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
I'll send it to you, okay.
And what I really admire is howyou combine your expertise as a
psychologist with your livedexperience as a foster carer.
Is that right, vanessa?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
absolutely.
It's definitely theintersection between being a mum
, being a carer and now, to youknow, a young adult.
So you know, I guess we'restill parents and carers even
though our kids grow intoadulthood and the intersection
with my world as a psychologistand the work that I do there in
(03:12):
terms of understanding people'sbrains.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
So it was kind of a perfect intersection really, oh,
I love that because that'swhere your heart comes in right,
the heart and soul.
It's not just cognitive butit's like a visceral and a lived
experience.
So through the fetal alcoholspectrum disorder training
Australia and JumpstartPsychology, you've made the
complexities of neurodivergenceaccessible, hopeful and deeply
(03:38):
human, and that's what I love.
And just before we got on thepodcast today, you were saying
you were in a meeting and youwere so happy because the young
person that you were supportingis actually liked in her
environment.
And I absolutely love that andyou know we resonate with that,
(03:58):
because liking the young personthat you're working with and
just really appreciating theiryou know, talents and their
character is 90% of the job doneas far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Absolutely a liking and I think the liking comes out
of understanding the youngperson.
And you know, even in this,even in this meeting that I was
in, you know, one of the thingsI loved about and and you know,
even in this, even in thismeeting that I was in, you know,
one of the things I loved aboutit was, you know, we were
talking about a particularbehavioral symptom, so a
challenge that this young personhad had recently, and as we
(04:36):
were dissecting what was goingon and again, we were looking at
, you know, this young person'sbrain-based strengths and
weaknesses, and we were talkingabout, oh, you know, when we
realized what was going on, whenwe looked at what was
underlying this particularbehavioral symptom, which was,
you know, something to do withpersonal hygiene, we all were
(04:56):
able to go.
I can't believe we missed that.
I can't believe, actually, thereason this thing was happening
that was leading to, you know,personal hygiene issues and
physical health issues, wasactually because this thing that
we understood and we alreadyknew about this young person's
brain and the fact that theywere really concrete and really
(05:16):
literal and we had assumed thattheir understanding of you know
what it means to to do thisparticular hygiene thing was a
bit personal so I won't go intoit.
Yeah, yeah, they were just beingreally concrete and literal and
we'd missed it and this thinghad turned into, you know, quite
a big issue for it, and then wewere just kind of like, man,
(05:38):
how do we miss that?
We know this about their brain.
So we actually have to take itout of being this nuanced thing
that this person has to usetheir own interceptive skills to
understand and we just have toturn it into a habit and a
routine, um, because they'reexcellent routine, you know,
they're so good at that, andthat was as simple as the issue
(05:59):
was, um, but it was really aboutus going.
How do we forget this aboutthis person's brain?
We, you know, we know.
Yeah, isn't it fascinating?
Speaker 1 (06:09):
because sometimes these little things that
probably right in front of us,we don't see because we're
trying to complicate something.
You know, and, and it is sotrue, when we really look
through the lens of compassionand kindness, and that this
person is a person and wherethey're at developmentally, what
(06:30):
can we do to help them, youknow, overcome some of the
challenges that I'm sure if theyknew that they were doing it,
they wouldn't want to do it.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
They were just doing what their brain always does
with a whole range of otherthings, and they just happened
to be doing it with this on thisoccasion and we were just slow
to pick it up.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Oh man, I love the way your brain thinks, Vanessa.
I love it.
So let's dive in.
And this season, we are talkingabout neurodiversity.
And when you think aboutneurodiversity in your life and
in your work, what does it meanto you personally?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
So to me, neurodiversity is pretty simple,
really.
It's not overly complicated,it's really.
I'm referring to, and I'mthinking about, just simple
brain-based differences, thefact that everyone has a brain,
everyone has strengths andweaknesses, and it's about
recognizing those.
It's about helping people knowand understand their brains, and
(07:40):
so for me, that's the mostimportant thing we can do is to
know and understand our brainand to help know and understand
somebody else's brain.
And once we can do that, Ithink it enables us to create
and co-create a life that fitsthe brain that we have.
(08:03):
And I guess some of us do thatreally intuitively, like I mean,
I didn't set out to create, Ididn't go, oh gosh, this is the
kind of brain I have, these aremy strengths and weaknesses.
I think I'll go and create alife that fits that.
I kind of did it reallyintuitively and that's because I
have a very neurocommon brain,I think.
But for other people that isn'thow their brains work and for
(08:27):
some people they need someassistance in understanding the
brain that they've got, and theyneed some assistance in helping
other people understand thebrain that they've got.
But we can still create a lifethat fits them in their brain.
To me, neurodiversity is reallyabout understanding those
brain-based both strengths andweaknesses.
(08:49):
I don't see weaknesses as aproblem, so I know some people
don't like the term weaknesses,but I have no problem with
weaknesses, I think, mainlybecause I know I have lots of
them and there's lots of thingsI'm working on.
So I think that's the humancondition.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
That's not a judgment and they're almost like, not so
much weaknesses but things inmy life that I just don't, I
don't follow up on because Ichoose not to.
They're not my interest area.
Basically, let's go there.
I've got interest areas andnon-interest areas.
I'm just really interestedbecause I worked with a little
(09:29):
guy in the last couple of daysand you know he was.
He's almost 10 years old andhe's not even going to school
because school thinks that he istoo hard.
And I just kept thinking aboutyour model when I'm looking at
this boy now that I've heardabout your model, and just
thinking about what the gaps arefor him and that he doesn't
(09:53):
have the skills.
So he basically he's diagnosedwith various diagnoses and one
of them is that he does not haveimpulse control right.
So that means he just goes anddoes it and needs it and soon as
he sees it because his visualsystem is so strong and it's
almost like whew, I'm goingthere and now I'm going and now
(10:16):
I'm taking it and now I'mthrowing it right, and he hasn't
been able to think through that.
And what's really interestingis that people are working with
him, trying to work with him ina very structured way, you know,
sitting down with timers andcutting and pasting and and
everything else.
And I can see this little guyand he's looking at the timer
(10:38):
and he's cutting.
And if anyone saw me now, likeI'm actually looking at it
another way and my hand is herenext to my right ear and he's
actually doing that because heknows it's a routine.
But there's no joy in it,there's no meaning in it,
there's no purpose in it, Likehow can we help kids that are?
(10:59):
I guess they're complex, butthey're really like running
around and you know really justanything they see they'll grab
or they'll get up and they'll dosomething they have.
You know, some parents findthat really hard to go down the
medication route this child has.
They have just gone down themedication route.
That's helped him a lot.
(11:20):
I always say it just frees upthe space in the brain, right,
yeah?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
create some wiggle room for some kids and they just
need that wiggle room to beable to develop some skills or
to slow their thinking down andto help them problem solve
better.
It's a wiggle room creator.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that and, like the thingis, I always keep thinking
about well, what isneuroaffirming practice?
You know, is neuroaffirmingpractice that we superimpose our
ideas of what the eight ornine-year-old should be doing,
or do we support him around hisinterests, like, you know,
bubble play and things like that, even if developmentally he's
(12:02):
at the, you know, like aone-year-old child that likes to
explore?
So what are your thoughtsaround that?
You know, when we're looking atschool and things like that,
because I see some schools arenot as neuroaffirming as they
could be yet and I say yetbecause we are going down that
(12:24):
way, 100% yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Look, it's really challenging and I get it.
I have an enormous amount ofempathy for schools.
You know, I thought I wanted tobe a teacher very early in my
career and you know I did a yearof teaching at uni and went oh
my gosh, do I really want 30kids in my classroom?
And I was like, no, I'd ratherbe in a room with just one
(12:46):
person.
I think I can be more effectivewith just one person.
And you know, when you look ata classroom, your average
classroom has got, you know it'sprobably got I don't know 15
neuro common brains that arewired in a particular way, and
then it's got you know anotherfive brains that are you
particular way, and then it'sgot you know another five brains
that are, you know, moreneurodiverse, that are wired in
(13:09):
this way, and another three thatmight be wired in a slightly
different way.
You know it's a, you know it'sa juggling act, but everyone has
a right to an education withthe brain that they've got, and
so we do need to find some waysof solving that, but you know so
.
But I think we have to find away through that, and a part of
(13:30):
that is by understanding each ofthe brains that we have in our
space and when it comes tothings like executive
functioning.
So when you describe thatlittle person there, I think of
two brain domains.
So executive functioning, sothat mental flexibility, your
ability to manage your impulses,the ability to link cause and
effect, you know, in terms ofbrain domains it's just a domain
(13:53):
that gets kids in so muchtrouble in environments that
have an expectation that theyhave.
Good, that's one of the keyexpectations of being in a
classroom is that you'reactually going to have average
executive functioning for yourage.
That's a problem if you don'thave that common, you know,
(14:16):
executive functioning for yourage, because the whole room
isn't set up for you, theplayground isn't set up for you,
and so you can't meet thedemands of that environment.
And when you can't meet thedemands of that environment,
then you're going to respondwith the things that you do have
.
And quite often that's when we,these kids, kick into fight or
flight and they become flightersor fighters, or they become
(14:36):
some combination of the twofight or flight and they become
flighters or fighters, or theybecome some combination of the
two, and so you can try tosuperimpose that on a young
person, but they don't growexecutive functioning skills
overnight.
You know this takes decades todevelop, even in your common
people.
So, like you know, it justdoesn't work at the end of the
(14:58):
day.
If it's super imposing it wasgoing to work, it would have
worked a long time ago and weactually wouldn't have any of
these kids that have behavioralsymptoms in the classroom.
So I think we have no choicebut to adapt to their brain and
go okay, this young persondoesn't have great executive
functioning skills just yet.
So what's our window into this?
(15:18):
And typically our window intoit is the things that are there,
areas of hyperfocus, forexample.
There are areas of specialinterest, and so, again, we're
probably going to have to startwith those so that we can get
some opportunistic learning andfind and use them as a way of
starting to open up executivefunctioning, helping to link
(15:41):
cause and effect.
I was talking about this onlythis morning.
If you've got someone who issuper fascinated with trains and
they're really cognitivelyrigid and they're really
inflexible with the things theywant to talk about and they're
having lots of trouble withtheir executive functioning, we
can't sit them down and starttalking to them about cause and
effect and using some examplethat's really random that won't
(16:04):
light up their brain pathways.
You know we're going to have togo.
Okay, you know how do we startto open up cognitive flexibility
by using a Thomas the TankEngine scenario.
You know how do we go.
You know, thomas, you knowreally wanted to go to this
station, but the station masterwas saying actually, thomas, you
need to go and do these twoother jobs before you come back
(16:26):
to this station.
Um, so again, you know you can.
You can try to impose thatmodel of no, we're going to sit
down and talk about cause andeffect, and we're going to talk
about it in regards to I don'tknow cats.
We're going to talk about it inregards to I don't know cats.
We're going to talk about it inregards to your behaviour in
the classroom and the zones ofor in the playground, or what
you did to Johnny in theplayground.
(16:47):
Yeah, or which, of course, justgoes straight over their heads.
There's no engagement.
They might nod and they might,at their very best, kind of go
oh, yeah, yeah.
At their worst they just ignoreyou and their executive
functioning comes out rightthere and then in front of you,
or we pivot and we go okay, wecan have a window into executive
(17:10):
functioning using this areathat lights up their brain
pathways, and that's our firstplace.
And over time, if they developsome of those skills, then we
can expand it to these moreboring areas that don't light up
their brain pathways.
But we've got to go through theareas that work first.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Sorry, vanessa, and often I find that it's through
relationship that we can expand.
So when they trust us and whenwe are in their world, then they
go okay, you're okay becauseyou're talking my language.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Yeah, you understand me, you like me, you seem to get
me, or at least you're tryingto get me, and kids are pretty
good at working that out.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
So I want to talk about the important role that
you've played in this space ofadvocating for kids, and you
know the books that you'vewritten and all the work that
you do with the complex childrenyou work with today.
So could you tell us a littlebit about what you do now and
what is it that fuels yourpassion for creating belonging
(18:16):
and connection?
This could take our full 45minutes.
Well, I just love listening toyou, vanessa, and I'm sure the
listeners do too.
You're just compelling tolisten to.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Well, thank you, that's very generous.
You know, I think the thing,the first thing, that the first
role that I played was reallythat role as a mum.
And you know it was a role andmy passion came out of absolute,
sheer desperation.
You know being plunged in theworld of parenthood and wanting
(18:49):
to do a good job and having thisreally complex.
You know, really neurodiverseyoung person and me just trying
desperately to work him out andworking, you know, desperately
trying to understand him and andsome of it probably was also
based on fear, because I couldsee the trajectory, I could see
(19:11):
where things were heading if we,if I, didn't manage to
understand him and if I didn'tmanage to help him and me create
a world that gave him the, youknow, the best possible life
that he could have.
So I guess you know that thatpassion just comes out of, you
know, love we all fall in lovewith our kids and you know
(19:31):
wanting the best for them.
But yeah, and some of it didcome with.
You know, at that sense of fear, what happens if we don't?
What happens if we don't?
What happens if I don'tunderstand him?
What happens if other peopledon't understand him in this
world?
And you know I work in the areaof FASD, so I know what those
outcomes are and the outcomesare really dire and really
(19:51):
depressing.
So for me I just wasn't happywith that as an outcome for him
and, as like most parents, thatwas just like no, that's, that's
not where we're going.
And that did intersect, I guess,with the other roles that I
play, which would be, you know,the professional roles that I
have, so working as a clinicalpsychologist, and I worked in
(20:12):
child protection and familycounselling.
So, you know, trying to supportfamilies, you know, in really
complex circumstances.
And then, you know, trying tosupport families, you know, in
really complex circumstances.
And then, you know, trying tosupport adults.
And I just became reallyinterested in brains and the
role that the brain that we haveplays, I guess, on our life and
how our life plays out.
(20:33):
And then you know, again, out ofnecessity, you know I wanted to
be able to communicate that toother people because, again,
neurodiversity, neurocomplexity,these multi-layered things, you
know they're incrediblycomplicated and as professionals
we kind of love the languageand we love the jargon, but I
really quickly worked out thatdidn't help anybody else, so I
(20:55):
had to have a language forcommunicating this with his
teachers.
I had to have a language forcommunicating this with his
teachers.
I had to have a language forcommunicating it with schools
and principals and speechtherapists and OTs and
pediatricians and the soccercoach and you know every single
person in the lives of thesekids.
So that drove me, I guess, tobe an educator.
(21:18):
It drove me to write books anddevelop resources that try to
make these really, reallycomplex things as simple as they
can be and to make them reallyclear and succinct so that
people don't need to get a PhDto work out what do I do, how do
(21:38):
I best support this youngperson.
But we sort of all got drivenagain by necessity and by trying
to make other people's livessimpler as well, because I think
people want to do the best thatthey can to support these kids,
but they have no idea how.
They don't know what that lookslike on a day-to-day basis and
(21:59):
in everyday life.
And I love practicality and Ilike simplicity.
So I guess I've tried to createa whole system that people can
apply and so they can learnthese skills themselves.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
And that's your.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Mind the Gaps system.
Yeah, mind the Gaps.
The first one was actually, Icall it explain by brain.
So explain by brain is thebroader framework and that is.
You know, I didn't invent allthe different components of it.
I pinched from reallyknowledgeable people like Diane
Melbourne, who has theneurobehavioral approach for
(22:35):
FASD, from people like RossGreen, who has the collaborative
and proactive solutions, andpeople like Bruce Perry, who
have this phenomenal bodily ofresearch around trauma.
What I found is there was justshortcomings in all of those
frameworks and models.
They weren't quite right foreveryone with FASD, and so I've
(22:56):
basically tweakedaked those.
I've taken the best out ofthose frameworks and the best
out of that research and thebest out of that evidence base,
and then I've gone okay, this iswhat I know about how alcohol
in particular impacts on brains,but I also know how, I guess,
just brains work.
So how, how do I tweak this toto fit all of these really
(23:19):
diverse brains that I'msupporting?
And so that's my overallExplained by Brain framework,
and then the Mind the Gap stufffalls into what we call ability
mapping.
That's again, this is one ofthe practical tools that I use
to understand brains, explainbrains, describe behavioral
symptoms, so that people canunderstand why people do the
(23:41):
things that they do, even whenwe have no idea what might be
driving that or we think it'sdriven by something else, and to
design those supports andaccommodations and to work out
how we teach missing skills.
So it's sort of that.
Yeah, it's a component of thatbroader Explained by Bain
framework.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
And I love when you presented it was very visual
because you presented it as awheel and then when you mapped
where kids were on that wheel,the wheel wasn't round, the
wheel was jaggedy like theFlintstones.
Yes, and if the child's got aFlintstone wheel that they're
going on, I mean life is goingto be really rough and sometimes
(24:19):
the child's got a Flintstonewheel that they're going on.
I mean life is going to bereally rough and sometimes the
car's not even going to goforward.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
So I love that.
It's not going straight, it'snot going fast, it's a bumpy,
hard, really effortful wheel.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, yeah, just like in the Stone Ages.
Effortful wheel.
Yeah, yeah, just like in thestone ages.
So what with that?
When we talk about, you know,supporting kids with their skill
development, where there isthat gap, does that mean that,
is it like only psychologiststhat can do it, or is it a whole
team approach?
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Oh, it's absolutely a whole team approach.
Everyone has to be involved infilling in that gap because we
live in.
That gap is the world.
So it's everything that happensin the world.
That's the school, that's whenwe go to the cinema, it's when
we go to the shops, it's when wego to have a doctor's
appointment.
The world lives in that gap.
(25:19):
So we take our brain into everysingle environment that we go
into.
So we need supports andaccommodations.
Wherever our brain goes, weneed supports and accommodations
, and so it has to be somethingthat is, yeah, that is
contributed to by absolutelyeverybody in the world and
(25:40):
obviously health professionals.
We have a very particular rolein that in terms of invite, in
identifying where the gaps.
You know where supports andaccommodations needed, what some
of those might look likehelping other people, problem
solve, what, what they helpingpeople.
You know I often call myself atranslator, so you know I try to
(26:04):
translate this young person'sbrain into the environment that
they're in and you know what dowe need so that you can
understand them and they canunderstand you.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
So is the translator usually a psychologist, or it
can be any professional.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Look, it can be anyone who understands brains.
So, yeah, I mean, often it is apsychologist.
Because we love brains, we'realways talking about brains.
Oh, yes, definitely.
Yes, it's a kind of our breadand butter.
I think it's very natural forus to go there.
But, yeah, it can be a speechtherapist, an OT.
It can be some reallywell-educated parents and carers
(26:44):
, Like some of the parents andcarers I support.
You know they have some of themshould have a master's degree
in brains because they've reallydone the research and looked
into it.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
But yeah, often it is people like psychologists, just
because we love brains and thisframework you wrote it around
FASD is is it can be applied toany child.
Right, that's got complex.
Yeah, because that's what Ifound when I was listening to
your session.
I thought, oh, this can applyto so many children.
(27:18):
You don't only have to havefetal alcohol syndrome disorder.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
A hundred percent because everyone's got the same
brain domains.
I can ability map myself, I canability map my mum, I can
ability map my son, I canability map every client who
comes and sits in front of me.
Now I don't need to and I don'tability map everybody, although
probably subconsciously, I'vestarted to do that.
But you know, the vast majorityof people who come and see me
(27:46):
in my office, they don't come inwith FASD, they come in with a
whole variety of things.
And you know, as ourconversation unfolds and as I
get to know them in their life,I'm also getting to know them in
their brain.
And if it's appropriate, I doability mapping.
You know, people love again andmany will have.
(28:10):
They will have some kind ofdiagnosis or they suspect they
have a diagnosis, particularlyof things like autism and ADHD.
But also you know some of myadults who've been told that
they have borderline personalitydisorder, which, again, it's
just, it's not a very helpfuldiagnosis and it doesn't explain
(28:32):
much.
So but if we ability map theirbrains and go, you know what is
it that you struggle with?
Well, it's emotional regulation.
It's that.
You know, my stress system getskicked into fight or flight.
There's certainly some executivefunctioning difficulties, lots
of problems with impulsiveness,not really understanding the
consequences of my actions orbeing able to predict them well.
(28:53):
Sometimes I get reallyoverwhelmed.
So you know, that's aprocessing speed.
You know, sometimes I'm notreading the room well, so that
might be adaptive functioningand social skills.
Again, that's far more.
I think that's much more usefulfor them to understand.
Oh, these are just some of theweaknesses that I have, but I
(29:15):
also have strengths in this andI can build some skills in this
and my psychologist can help mewith understanding that.
They can help me to to work outwhat kind of environments I'm
going to be best suited to.
And it's, it's without judgment, it's just a description,
there's nothing functional andit's more.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Look it, it's not strengths-based, but it is
strengths-based, if you knowwhat I mean.
Yeah, so you know.
If you get a diagnosis, it'sreally like you've got a label
on your forehead and you'rethinking, oh my gosh, I've got
bipolar, I've got ADHD, I've gotASD, I've got this, I've got
that and all of thatsubjectivity you walk around
(30:00):
with that, you know, in the backof your mind.
So I love that, because it'svery individualized, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (30:06):
exactly, and it's like well, how do I best live my
life?
Knowing my strengths and myweaknesses, what, no matter what
everyone else calls them, ifsomeone gives them a diagnosis,
fine, but how do I live my lifewith these, these brain-based
strengths and weaknesses that Ihave?
Speaker 1 (30:22):
I love it.
I think I'm gonna map myselfwhen I get your book.
I'm gonna start with myself.
I'll start with myself.
So, vanessa, many of the peoplelistening are parents today.
If you could share just onemessage with them, what would
you really want them to takeaway?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Oh, just one message I guess it's a message that I
tell lots of parents and that isthat you are the greatest
resource your child has.
There is no, you know.
The speech therapist isn't thegreatest resource they have, or
their psychologist, their youknow behavior support
practitioner.
You, you, you are theirgreatest resource.
(31:02):
Educate yourself, educateeverybody that you know so that
they also understand your child.
Care for yourself, because, asthe greatest resource you know,
you're here for a long time, nota good time.
We want longevity, and thatmeans you looking after yourself
and making sure that you meetyour needs, but don't be afraid
(31:25):
to create and co-create ameaningful and purposeful life
for your child.
You can do that together, and Ithink that's our job as parents
is to imagine a future for ourchildren and work with them to
work out what it is that theywant for their life.
Yeah, and our job is to workout well, how do we get them
(31:47):
there.
So, you know, I think there'snobody who's a more important
resource to that than you.
So you've got to look afteryourself.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that I was actuallyworking with a mum today and we
do a little baseline assessment.
So I do a six-week program withthe parents and we score.
She scored herself at thebeginning and today was the
fifth week and she scoredherself full marks about feeling
confident in herself.
Oh isn't that great.
And I was like this is what thework is about, because she's
(32:22):
also supporting a young childthat you know has got some
challenges, but she could seethe future and that she was the
resource right, that she, thatshe was the child strength.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
I love that.
And you don't have to knoweverything to have that
confidence.
You do have to go.
I can problem solve and I canproblem solve with them and you
don't have to.
You won't know all the answers.
I have the skills to work itout and to work with them.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
And also, we talked a lot about problem solving and
that problem solving isn't aboutcoming up with a solution first
pop.
Like I know, for me as aproblem solver it could take
many different solutions until Icome up with oh, there it is,
you know.
So having confidence that thesolution will come, whether it's
(33:12):
going to be from yourself,confidence that the solution
will come, whether it's going tobe from yourself, from someone
else, something just drops intoyour lap from somewhere, or you
have an aha moment while you'rebrushing your teeth.
You know that's the way thebrain works, right?
It's not like.
And the more you actually focuson the problem, the harder it
is to solve often, I find andlook, good scientists right.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Good scientists, they love the experiment.
You know that's what we do andwe're experimenting with a
theory that I think this issomething that will make a
difference for my young person.
And you go out and you conductthe experiment and a good
scientist isn't looking for aparticular outcome.
I mean we're kind of well'tlooking for a particular outcome
(33:55):
.
I mean we kind of wereobviously hoping for a
particular kind of outcome whenwe were doing experiments with
our kids.
A really good scientist isinterested in the process and
says, okay, well, now I can rulethis one out, now I can rule
this one out, and now I cantweak this one, and I think we
got closer with this.
And so actually I think we needto do a little bit more of this
(34:15):
and I think that is a much.
That's a much healthier way toview the world in general and
we're not a failure.
We can't fail if we justcontinue to conduct these
experiments.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
That's right, and I think, when you were saying that
you are the greatest resourcefor your child, we also want
parents not to go gasp.
It's like you are perfect theway you are for your child and,
whatever happens, you willcontinue to grow.
Even if you think you're notcontinuing to grow, you are.
(34:50):
Just by one little interaction,just by seeing something,
hearing something, and the rightthings will come to you at the
right time.
That is what I believe and Ithink the parents that can
navigate their world like thatwithout fretting about oh, I'm
not good enough, I can't do that.
You know all these limitingbeliefs and decisions and I
always say to parents if youhave those, go and see a
(35:12):
professional, go and see apsychologist, because sometimes,
you know, our filters get inthe way of being the best we can
be in the moment with whatwe've got, and I guess that's
why you're there, vanessa, butyou know you are in Brisbane,
you're not here in Adelaide.
So so I think you know, but weneed to be, you know, reaching
(35:35):
out to professional help,because I do know a lot of
parents put themselves last andthey will get all the help they
can for their child but fortheir own mental, spiritual,
physical, emotional health.
They'll put that on the backburner and that's the, that's
the, the part that needs to benourished right.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Well, you've got to look after the resource, like
the resources, we've got tonurture it and support it and
we've got to let it rest when itneeds to rest and we've got to
grow it when it needs to grow.
Yeah, not the outcome.
No, we're not the solution,we're the resource.
So we have to.
We don't want to burn up all ofthe resource again.
(36:15):
We're here, we want to keepnourishing it.
We want to keep growing theresource and I think people
mistake being a resource withbeing the solution.
Oh, yes, we're, we're aresource.
Yes, a really important one.
We're not the only one, but weare not the solution.
No, and I love that we are notthe answer and we're never going
(36:38):
to find a answer Again.
I think so many parents I mean,and I know I wanted an answer,
goodness knows, I would haveloved an answer and it really
sucks that there's not an answer.
But the answer was I am theresource and I'm gonna have to
keep conducting experiments, youknow, potentially for the rest
(36:59):
of my life, and that's actuallyokay and and also when you're
conducting those experiments,you're growing yourself as a
human being.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
You know so that your child is your best growth.
You, you know in personaldevelopment.
For you it was alsoprofessional development, but
they are the key to yourpersonal development, you know,
as a human being, which I thinkis great, exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
And we're modelling.
We're modelling exactly what itis we want them to learn.
You know, I want my son tolearn.
You're going to make mistakes.
You're not going to get itright every time.
I want him to learn.
Life can be frustrating, but wecan cope and we can learn and
we can change and we can learnto be more flexible, Even when
that doesn't come naturally tous.
(37:44):
We can learn to be better at it.
So we actually role model thethings that we want them to do
as well.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
So I think that's lovely, that's huge, and I think
that openness isn't it, thatopenness to question yourself.
I know that there've beenparents that I've worked with
and it's always that, oh, mychild's got the problem and my
child's got this diagnosis andthis and this, but they're not
really looking at their ownprofile.
It's really important thatwe're open and we're looking at
(38:12):
our own profile.
It's really important thatwe're open and, as we're looking
at our own profile, it's okay.
It's not a judgment.
And I guess people that havestill got that fear, that shame,
that guilt, sadness, you knowcarrying that.
That's again where I believethat the psychologist is very
helpful for working with thoseand just normalising because
(38:33):
it's normal.
You know, everybody's got thatin different ways, yeah, but it
can be very personal for some.
Oh my gosh, okay, look how muchI can talk to you, okay.
So I like to ask all my gueststhis question what do you see as
your own neurodiverse strengthor difference that makes you
uniquely, you?
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Actually, I love that question when I because you
sent me the questions beforehand, or some of the questions
beforehand, and this one Iactually because I don't think
anyone's ever asked me this andI love it as a question and my
answer I think the people aroundme would agree.
I think a certain degree ofhyperfocus, you know obviously
(39:18):
talking about, there are certaintopics that light up my brain
pathways FASD, complexneurodiversity, pickleball.
There's a couple of areas that,for whatever reason, they light
up my brain pathways and I canjust dive into them and I have,
in terms of those particulartopics, I have incredible
(39:40):
attention to detail.
It's kind of a bit like rocketfuel.
I feel really passionate aboutit.
It enables me to be creative,and so I guess I think I'm just
really lucky that I've foundthese areas.
And again, that just happens tobe the way my brain is wired.
So when I find something thatlights up my brain pathways, I
(40:01):
can just delve right into it ata level of detail that most
people would just find tedious,and I can go yeah, but what does
that look like here?
Yeah, but what does that looklike there?
So how would we support that inthis environment?
Um, so my brain.
It loves to solve puzzles, itloves to find uh, I don't know
(40:24):
that.
It loves to solve puzzles, itloves to contemplate puzzles.
It's always looking to create aframework that that helps me to
understand stuff.
And then then I want to, then II get really passionate and I
want to explain it to someoneelse, because I get really
excited and I go let me tell youabout my framework.
What do you think about thisframework?
And then they go oh, yeah, no,it's a really good one.
Oh, except this.
And then I'm like oh right,yeah, I hadn't thought about
(40:46):
that.
Let me go, and let me go andthink about that some more and
I'll tweak my framework.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
I love that so much.
Oh, my goodness, when you talklike that, I can just hear
myself and I know my husbandprobably will be listening to
this and going.
She's like you, she's exactlylike you, because.
I do think that as well.
You know, and it's reallyimportant to find and own what
you're good at and what yourstrength is and what makes you
(41:12):
uniquely you and you know theother stuff they're not.
Like I say, it's not yourweakness, it's just that it's
not your focus area for thislifetime.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Yeah, and you know we get the choice about that.
You know, certainly, as I getolder, I'm saying that you know
what?
I don't have to structure mycareer in a way that sits me in
one particular job and I do thatjob, and I do that five days a
week, and you know it's in oneparticular setting.
I can actually go.
(41:42):
Oh, hang on, my brain actuallylikes variety.
My brain likes, you know, doingsome creative sort of writing
or you know, trying to, you know, design some kind of system.
It likes to do some education.
It likes sitting in front ofpeople, and as I've gotten older
, I'm like, oh, actually I get asay in this.
(42:03):
I can actually do that.
I can structure my work life tofit this brain that I have and
some of these things that I docare about and that I'm really
passionate about, and I'm reallygrateful for that.
That's an amazing thing to have.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
And so are we.
We're really, really grateful,because then we get the benefits
.
And to finish, what gives youhope when you think about the
future, a future whereneurodiversity is truly
celebrated and belonging ispossible for everyone.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
What gives me hope is , I think, my son.
You know, and and even I think,before we got started I was
talking about this particularclient that I'd just been in a,
you know, in a, you know, aconference call about.
What I love is that, again,they, they both came with this
(42:52):
incredible complexity and youknow lots of adversity, without
any doubt, but it gives me hopebecause, you know, for my son, I
see that he is created and iscreating this life that has
purpose and meaning for him, um,and you know it has all the
(43:12):
things that are important to himaround work, and work looks and
is structured differentlyperhaps to how it might be for
other people.
He's got relationships, he'sgot family, he has his special
interests, he's got some thingsthat light up his brain pathways
, he likes to travel and hecontributes to the community,
(43:34):
like for me that's so importantthat you know he's not just a
part of the community but he hasa role and he has
responsibilities in thecommunity and he's aware of
those and they're not a burden,they're actually, you know,
something that is, I think,really important to him and I
think that gives me hope andI've seen this in, I guess, this
(43:57):
other.
You know, in multiple of theyoung people I support, where we
start to see things sort ofturning and we start to see them
actually I don't know finding away of living that actually
works for them, a form ofschooling that works for them.
They have some dreams aroundyou know what kind of work they
(44:19):
want to do in the future and howthey want to contribute to
society and and to otherpeople's lives.
And for me, you know that'sagain that's what everyone wants
for their life.
So when I see young people withreally complex neurodiversity
striving for that and achievingthat that's I don't know that,
just you know it fills my heart.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
It's lovely, it does, and it makes the world better
right, because it's tapestry.
We're all a beautiful tapestryand we all need all the
different colours in thattapestry, exactly.
Wow, this really, this reallymade me feel up and this really
drove my brain and I'm just likeI was a bit tired before we got
on and now I'm just like whoa,I'm wired, I'm off to conquer
(45:05):
the world.
Vanessa, see you later.
I'm just a psychologist, I'mfine.
So thank you so much for beingpart of the Empowered Parent
Podcast, vanessa.
It was just-.
Thank you for inviting me.
You were so inspiring and ifthis conversation has inspired
the listener, you, I'd love foryou to share the episode with a
(45:27):
friend, leave a review or followalong so you don't miss any
episodes of our Neurodiversityseries in the future.
And together we can build aworld where every child, every
parent and every individualfeels they truly belong.
So thank you again, vanessa,for being part of the podcast
series.
Thank you so much.
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