May 6, 2024 • 54 mins
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Transparency between a content creator and their audience is a tough thing to build. What happens when a brand asks a creator to violate that trust?
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S12E9 | Series Episode 173
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Thank you, hello and welcome.
(00:33):
My name is Tom.
This is the Enthusiasm Project,season 12, episode 9.
And today we've got a finetopic all about some really fun
stuff that's been happening andto help me navigate this, I have
my lovely wife Heather backagain.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Wow, that's such a good hello, alrighty.
So today there's been a littlebit well, actually not today,
but recently there has been alittle bit of I don't know I
guess you could call it drama alittle bit of tea, happening in
the starting primarily in thecamera YouTube space, but then
spilling over into biggerconversations all about brands
(01:14):
and sponsorships and shillingand all of that kind of stuff,
shilling.
So that's we are, and there'sbeen a lot.
And if you're listening to this, you probably know some of the
stuff I'm'm referring to whichwe will kind of dive into,
because it sort of fitsperfectly into stuff we've
talked about a lot on thispodcast in the past.
But I didn't want to dive inright when all this stuff was
(01:34):
happening.
I wanted to kind of wait and,like, see some responses, form
some thoughts, let the dustsettle and then jump in.
But before before we do that,before we do that, I just have
to explain what we're using.
Today we are back on theRodecaster Pro 2 because in my
new office setup we can just putthe table in the middle.
We can face each other acrossthe table.
(01:55):
I've got the Rodecaster Pro 2on the table, two microphones.
It's super easy, peasy and Ireally love it, and I am using
the Earthworks Ethos on thegeneric condenser setting and
Heather is once again on theShure SM58 on my custom SM7B
preset, because I really, reallyreally liked how that sounded
last week and I just want to useit again this week.
(02:17):
Cool, so that's what we'reusing.
Okay, so where to begin?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
so I only know just tidbits of what you've kind of
shared.
I have.
You know I haven't beenfollowing, so maybe for the
people who don't know what'shappening you can give a little
bit of a tldr situation yeah,this all started with the
biggest troublemaker on youtube,one of the most controversial
creators on the platform, faroukfrom iPhone dough.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I laugh because he's absolutely not that at all.
He's been around forever.
I mean literally like the oneof his most popular videos,
which he mentioned in his videoabout Insta, was his GoPro Karma
review, which was GoPro's dronefrom like 10 years ago and
GoPro tried to make a drone.
It just wasn't good and he kindof said that he's like I would
(03:10):
like this to be good, but itjust doesn't work and he's great
.
He and he's, you know,definitely like an independent
creator does everything himselfand he is known for being like
just a pretty nice low key.
He is known for being like justa pretty nice low-key, super
fun, super kind of laid-back guy, and so when somebody like that
says something, you kind oflisten, because they don't
(03:31):
normally say those sorts ofthings.
So what happened?
Uh, right after nab which isvery funny because we got to
meet him briefly at nab rightacross in the insta360 booth,
just by coincidence, he was verynice.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
He was very nice, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
After that he had posted a thing on Instagram that
was it started in an Instagramstory and it was him.
It was like a thing postingscreenshots from an email that
was not to him but was tosomebody else.
And then it was a link to athing on threads.
So Instagram's like Twitteralternative, which neither you
(04:11):
and I are signed up for.
So normally I can't read thingson threads.
I don't know what kind of linkhe posted, but I could actually
read the thread on threads andit was.
Somebody had posted a coupledifferent email screenshots from
insta360 wanting to work withthem and saying specifically,
saying uh, we preferred, if youdid not disclose that, this,
(04:33):
that these videos are sponsored,because that feels more organic
and authentic and natural andand the person was like this is
insane, and they had twodifferent instances of being
asked that and then shared it onthreads, and so there was a
whole bunch of replies there.
Farouk saw that and you knowthis is at least what I saw on
on what I saw through my lens,so you know I could be wrong in
(04:57):
some cases, but from what I know, he saw that he had been
working with Insta 360,personally not liking the way
they were starting to do things.
And then he started.
He posted a thing that wassaying that he's going to stop
working with them for thesereasons, and then he also
followed that up with a YouTubevideo explaining basically
explaining this whole situation.
(05:18):
So I'll link to that video inthe show notes if you want to
know this like from the source,instead of you know hearsay
third party.
You want to know this like fromthe source instead of you know,
hearsay third party, whatever,you can go watch that.
But that's basically it was.
Insta has apparently beenasking people to not disclose
that videos are sponsored, whichis bad, like if that's what's
happening?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
that's bad and because it's wrong.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
It's wrong, it's like it's ethically wrong.
It's also straight up illegalin a lot of places, because you
have to, as a creator, as aninfluencer, whatever you want to
call it you have to disclose.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I want to make it clear that it's not an opinion.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, this is a thing that you could.
I forget what the fine is.
It's a massive fine.
It's like a five figure $50,000fine or something If you're
found guilty of not disclosingthings like this.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Don't know how often that's enforced, right, but the
ftc?
Uh wait, is it the fcc?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
oh, my god, I've been watching so many videos about
this.
Well, let me be yeah, yes, ftcokay, thank you, wow.
Thanks, mr mathers, 20 yearslater well, speaking of shady,
they were doing a couple thingsthat were not slim shady but big
shady and yeah so.
So that's that's essentiallywhat started this conversation,
(06:33):
which then delved into.
Once he said something othercreators popped up, not just
talking about insta but talkingabout other companies, and then
other creators popped up makingvideos that were just not even
about companies, just about thewhole system in general of like
sponsorships and products, andand then people popped up with
counterpoints.
There's been a whole thing thatkind of like started from this
(06:55):
one, this one incident here, andthat's I wanted to kind of look
at that from like every angle.
So, sticking with the instathing to just kind of wrap that
up and give some context, uh,have they responded?
Not that I'm aware of, okay, butsomebody in the thread on
threads which is a very funthing to say in the comments
(07:16):
there said they had had thissame issue last august and they
had been asked not to disclosestuff and they said, like we
can't do that, that's againstthe law, I need to disclose
things.
And they they said, like wecan't do that, that's against
the law, I need to disclosethings.
And they sort of called themout on it and they came back
saying oh, it's a translationerror, because it's a
China-based company.
English is not the firstlanguage that most people are
dealing with.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Oh, it's translation error, which is total bull.
I'll tell you that right now,because I don't know where the
headquarters is, but I used towork out of a WeWork, a
co-working space, in China yeah,no, in Long Beach, california,
and they had a headquartersthere.
And that's when you know thisis 2016.
So they were that might havebeen the only satellite office
(07:59):
at the time.
They've grown a lot, they'vegrown a lot, yeah, but no,
there's definitely on our coast.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah, have grown a lot.
They've grown a lot, yeah, butno, there's definitely on our
coast.
Yeah, no, I mean that.
It's a thing that I've heard uhused many times like
translation errors.
But it's funny because, likethere's no other translation
errors ever, like everythingelse is very clear, very well
written, very professional, easyto understand english, and
suddenly it's like, oh, no, no,no, that was, that was just a
translation error.
Um, what they had said to thisperson was we meant to make any
(08:28):
video that you want.
Don't make a commercial for it,don't make like a sponsored
video, but make your video thatfeels natural or whatever, which
would great.
I'd love it if a company I loveit when companies tell people
to do that.
The fact that then theycontinue to use the same
language repeatedly with othercreators makes me think that
wasn't a translation error.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Um, also, the fact that just wasn't a well, that
and like, if a random creatorreached out to you and asked for
a sponsorship, you wouldimmediately attach that with
money, so obviously you know themeaning of it I mean, if you're
the person who's in charge oflike doing sponsorship for a big
company obviously.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Obviously that's the case, and so in Farouk's video
he talked about how hisrelationship with them had
changed over the years.
It wasn't always like this.
I've worked with them twice inthe past, um, and both times
have been great.
They sent me the 1x2 360 cameraback in September of 2021 and
that was, you know, the wholeethics statement thing.
They're just like.
I think they had seen a video Idid on a Samsung 360 camera
(09:27):
years ago and it was socomplicated.
It was really cool.
It was so complicated to usethat.
Then they wanted to send methat.
It wasn't even when it wasreleased.
It was like months and monthsafter it was out.
It wasn't a new thing oranything, and I loved it because
it was so like they took thisreally complicated thing and
made it so easy.
There was no obligation on mypart.
(09:50):
I ended up making a video, likeI don't know, seven months
later because I had used it alot and really liked it.
And then maybe I think this waslate 2022 they sent me the link
webcam, the one that followsyou around a lot, which I also
liked and I was interested in.
I'm not a webcam guy, but I wascurious about some of the
higher end webcams with moreinteresting features, because
not everyone needs like settingup a streaming thing or a video
call thing.
You don't need a mirrorlesscamera, it's not right for
(10:12):
everybody.
And it was funny because I wason the B&H website like looking
at the Link webcam.
At this time I got an emailthat said, hey, do you want to
try our Link webcam?
Okay, it's the same thing.
It was like all the wholeethics statement.
So that was late 2022, maybeearly 2023, and both of my
experiences are the same.
They sent the thing and therewas basically no follow-up.
(10:33):
So that's kind of how it shouldbe based on what we had agreed
on.
But that's the only times I'veever interacted with them, done
anything with them no moneychanged hands, anything like
that.
Um, and apparently that's kindof how they used to be and it's.
It's only more recently thatthey've gotten a little more
aggressive.
From what I've heard othercreators say now in all these
(10:53):
different videos and things, andfrouk sort of guessed that the
reason for that was because whenthey were just the 360 camera
company they were dominating,but then they tried to branch
out into like more generalizedaction cameras and cameras and
now you're competing with djiand gopro, and of those three
big names, they're definitelylike the third place one.
(11:14):
And so now they're I don't knowwhat it is they're panicking.
They're trying to like reallyget stuff going.
They invested a lot of stuff inthese other things.
I don't know what it is.
Something shifted, maybe it'sthe management change or who
knows what.
Ow, oh, I really hit my knee onthe table right there.
But things changed ouch and uh,and that's kind of where we're
(11:34):
at now is people who've workedwith them for a long time have
noticed a notice, the changeeven before this, and just how
they're they're being dealt with, and so that's kind of the
insta 360 side of things whichis such a shame because it's I
don't, I don't, I don't knowpeople.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Money makes people weird, but like if you just kept
going and worked with creators,like, why do you?
Why do you have to be shady?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
it's the same.
I don't.
How do you the products are?
Speaker 2 (12:04):
good.
Why would you risk?
It takes one creator to just betransparent about what's
happening and you are done likeI cannot believe yeah, I don't
know how, because now like, okay, the real frustrating part is
the products are good.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah, why don't you?
Speaker 2 (12:18):
why do you have to be shady?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
that's why.
Why do you have to?
Speaker 2 (12:22):
and and now it's this weird thing too like I'm so
confused, like I want to be, Iwant to go talk to the vp of
marketing.
What was your?
Because obviously this is likenot just one person, right, this
is multiple people dealing withmultiple creators.
So was this a water coolerconversation?
(12:43):
Was this a meeting?
Was this a?
Do they have to like?
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, did someone go rogue and try to like juice up
some deals to impress their boss?
Or is this a company policy?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
I mean it shouldn't have happened, period.
It doesn't even Right, it'sjust such a shame.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
It's frustrating because the things are good.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I don't know how you come back from that in terms of
like organic marketing and it is, it's like one of the true
creator, focused companies,which is why it's so
disappointing.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yeah, and now it kind of makes you look at the
creators who are doing sponsoredor I guess maybe even not
anything any insta 360 content alittle bit like so did you say
yes to that?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
to?
The shady deal, I mean andthat's what like.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
One of the people who commented on Farouk's video was
iJustine, who does a lot ofInsta360 videos.
But I looked at her one for themost recent release, the X4,
and she says the video issponsored, says it in the video.
There's a thing on screen thatsays it's sponsored.
She checked the paid promotionbox that it's sponsored and the
first line of description isthat it's sponsored.
So it's sponsored and the firstline of the description is that
(13:50):
it's sponsored.
So it's very clear that it's asponsored video.
Thank you, we check some otherother creators, uh, peter
mckinnon being a good example.
Nothing in the description, noproduct thing checked.
Did not say it on screen, butdoes have a full screen pop-up
that says sponsored by insta360at 1 minute 50 seconds into the
video, didn't?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
check the box.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Didn't check the box.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Okay, see, that's not that.
I feel like that.
I feel like that's wrong.
I feel like, as YouTubecreators, we know like, when it
comes to how you do your titles,how you do your thumbnails,
dealer's choice, but no, when itcomes to we as a whole, as a
company, as a community, thisbox is here for a reason.
(14:26):
This is how this box is used.
It's not just for you, it'salso for the viewers that are
watching your content and foryou.
To that, I'm not cool with thatit's.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
I mean, I have opinions on the box because it
there's.
It's.
There's no clarification, likeif you get a six-figure
sponsorship deal or someonesends you a $20 product.
You check the same box and itgives the same disclaimer.
And I think the way some peoplekind of justify going around it
is checking the box is not anFTC requirement, it's a YouTube
guideline.
The FTC says you need todisclose it in all these
(14:58):
different ways saying it onscreen, putting it in
descriptions and it does say weencourage you to use platform I
forget the exact wording, butthey encourage you to use
platform.
I forget the exact wording, butthey encourage you to use
platform, specific things, butknow that that might not be
enough.
So if you just check the boxand do nothing else, that might
not be enough.
Um, but if we're all trying toplay in good faith which, yeah,
you know like it's good foreverybody, if everybody's kind
(15:20):
of playing, we all know thespirit of the box.
Well, it's also there is a thing.
So from a viewer standpoint, itdefinitely makes you kind of
question things and even withother companies in the past I
say no to most companies thatreach out but there have been
(15:40):
companies who say you know crazystuff, Like here we have this
like piece of crap product andwe want to pay you essentially
nothing and in return you giveus like 10 videos and four reels
and whatever you know, likekind of the most horrific brand
deal ever.
You need to post a thing on theembargo.
This is before, like I don'teven talk to these companies,
this is just in the cold emailthat shows up.
(16:01):
You know nope, delete, nope,delete, whatever.
But then you look whatever,that embargo date is june 1st or
something we'll say.
And then june 1st rolls aroundand you see all these videos pop
out and you know I knoweveryone has their individual
deals, but it's like wow, I kindof know what you agreed to you
know what you were approachedwith?
(16:22):
yeah, yeah, I know what I wasapproached with and I know
you're doing a thing for thepeople I was approached with and
now that's always kind of beena thing in the YouTube world.
But you don't know whatanyone's individual deals are,
so you can't assume.
But now that's even.
It's a little more open foreven viewers to understand like,
hey, this company operates thisway.
I don't work with them anymore.
(16:42):
But then the next week when acreator posts a video, working
with them.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
You know a viewer thinking critically might make
some connections or have somethoughts.
Here's the reason why I thinkit's like super shady, because
the most valuable resource for acreator, the most precious
valuable resource that leads tosuccess or growth or anything,
is the trust of their audience.
And so for you to even hint atcompromising that f you bro like
(17:16):
I mean and and that's the thingwhere it's like no company I
get that everyone is gonnahandle it differently,
everyone's got their individualthings, but it's such a fickle
thing as soon as trust iscompromised, that could be, you
know, months of trying to comeback from that, from as a
(17:38):
creator yeah, I don't and that'sso hard, you know in this case.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
We've talked about large channels who said I don't
know what.
I don't know what you know, say, the smallest creators they're
approaching are, in this case.
But if you're significantlysmaller, not doing this full
time, probably a lot less pulland influence than someone like
iPhonedo does or iJustine.
You can tell how long they'vebeen on the platform just based
(18:03):
on their names.
Um, you can tell how longthey've been on the platform
just based on their names, uh.
But if you're not that personand then this company approaches
you with a deal, that feelskind of weird, how do you even
navigate?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
How do you know what's weird?
Is this just?
Speaker 1 (18:11):
how it's done?
Are you going to be allured bythe, the flashy name that you've
seen big creators also workwith?
Are you going to feel safeworking with them because you've
seen bigger people working withthem?
Like You've seen bigger peopleworking with them.
There's so many, it's such ahard thing to navigate.
So that's that.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Do you have any gauge on how viewers feel Like?
Speaker 1 (18:36):
non-creators.
I mean just from the commentson the videos that I've been
putting out, which, like mostpeople, are at least the
comments I've seen most peopleare agreeing with the creators
on these different videos.
Because Farouk did his video, acouple other people have like
hinted, either online or invideos, about Insta360.
And then other people did justlike general what it's like
(18:57):
working with brand and branddeals, suck kind of videos, and
the comments of those arelargely supportive and largely
people like really appreciatingtransparency between the creator
and the viewer.
And then there's still peoplewho pop up Like I left a.
I left a comment on Farouk'svideo that said, wow, this made
me do a 180 on Insta 360, whichI was very proud of, um.
(19:17):
And then, like four days later,someone said, like who gives an
F?
Like if I want to buy this S,I'm just going to buy it.
If I want the 360 camera to buythis, like, okay, good for you.
I don't, the cameras are stillgood, but you know, in terms of
like running a business as a,yeah, like obviously we care,
(19:37):
you know.
Yeah, well, you know, I get itand it's.
It's frustrating, and it's thesame thing, though.
Um, it's the same.
I don't know it's frustrating,and it's the same thing, though
it's the same, I don't know,it's just frustrating because
the products are good.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yes, why did you have to say this?
Speaker 1 (19:49):
You had.
It's like taking.
You could have just kept going.
It's like if someone were tobuy a brand that is known
globally so much so that usingit is in the dictionary and then
change the entire brand to justa random letter from the
alphabet instead.
It's an insane deal.
Nobody would ever do such athing.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
So there have been lots of video responses to that.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Okay, um, mostly people like taking, taking their
own spin and like adding to it,not necessarily responding to
his, but now doing their ownversion.
That's what's created sort ofthis dialogue beyond just insta
360, and I think that's cool,but I also so okay.
It kind of has led to thisthing, though, where people are
(20:30):
saying like, yeah, brands suckand brand deals suck, and this,
that and the other thing, andnow it's like, okay, don't paint
it that.
I'm saying this, don't paint it, that everyone who does a brand
deal sucks.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Brand deals are not inherently evil.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Or shady or anything.
They can work out great.
It's all about how you navigatethat thing can work out great.
It's all about how you navigatethat thing.
And that also then led intothis conversation, where it
feels like a lot of peoplewatching these videos only feel
like negative reviews are honestyeah, no, you're only gonna say
positive things.
Because you're sponsored, whichyou know we've talked about here
.
Like, personally, I mean Idon't do.
(21:01):
I don't do a lot of sponsoredcontent.
Sometimes brands send stuff butby the time I've made a video
about it it means I like thething.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
I just don't want to spend my time making a video on
something that's the same thingabout, like why I don't write
negative yelp reviews yeah, Ijust like I don't want to draw
unless you've done somethingegregiously bad, then yeah,
that's one thing, but it's justnot worth my time.
I don't want to draw attentionto it.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
And also, you know, like as a Yelp review, I know
how bad one review can likedamage you know, and I don't
want to be the person who doesthat, if there's something that
I feel like it's almost like itneeds to be a public service
announcement, to make it likethis is bad and shady Exactly.
That's different, but that'spretty rare.
Most of the time it's personalopinion.
(21:49):
So if there's something in mysphere that comes out where it
feels like this should be onTom's channel and I don't say
anything about it, I don't makeany videos about it.
It shows you my level ofinterest or my opinion on the
thing, I don't know which one.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Plus.
It's so much more fun talkingabout things that you're excited
legit excited about.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah, I'd way rather do that than because then I'm
going to deal with you know ifit's a sponsorship, like
obviously there's a way to makeit work for everybody, you know.
Well, so that ties me into thensort of this other thing.
There's been all.
There's been this whole influxand I think it's kind of died
down now, which is why I wantedto wait, you know, a week or two
, to do this podcast.
It doesn't seem like thosevideos are popping up as much
(22:26):
anymore.
But then Heather, from thefellow filmmaker YouTube channel
who we also got to meet andhang out with at NAB.
She did a live stream last weekon her channel.
It was called there's a problemwith my channel and she.
She talked about this a lot andshe pushed back with a
different perspective.
(22:46):
That I thought was veryinteresting, because nobody else
I hadn't heard her perspectivebeing shared.
It was sort of everyone kind ofjumping on the brand deals,
suck train and you shouldn't beable to do.
You know, you shouldn't.
Basically, like no one shouldever make money off their
youtube channel, which is it's.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
It's just not a it's no, yeah, I don't know Hard no
to that, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
And that's me saying that.
That's that's how I felt to me,that that is an immature
viewpoint, because that's how Ifelt when I had no experience on
the platform and I was like,yeah, this is not a source of
income, this is not anything.
I had no experience, nomaturity on the platform and
that's what I felt like, and Ifeel like it's a gut reaction of
like.
Sure, in an ideal world,everybody can just do whatever
(23:30):
their heart desires at all times, with no.
Okay, that's not the world welive in and there are ways to
balance it.
But one of the things thatheather said in her stream was,
um, that she has gotten to apoint where, because she does
need her business to be abusiness, she doesn't.
She never accepts free products, she only accepts sponsorships.
(23:52):
So if a company wants to sendsomething, they also need to pay
her.
And I thought that was veryinteresting because that's
that's a different approach fromwhat I have.
But she explained it veryclearly.
She talked about running herthing as a business.
She's also, you know, she'sbeen at it for many years.
So I feel like she's built upcredibility and the thing with
her is she does, she sends thething they pay.
She uses it, test it out,reviews it, makes her video
(24:16):
about it and sometimes it'snegative, or you know, like she,
she is fair and balanced andthat's the thing.
That's the thing that popped upin a lot of the response videos
, which I didn't like because Ifelt like people were speaking
for me.
Where a big criticism was, ifpeople say the thing I've had to
say many times, they sent thisfor free, but I'm under no
obligation to say anything ormake a video or whatever, which
(24:37):
is true Whenever a company hassent anything to me for free,
ever.
I'm never under obligation tomake a video about it.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
You make that clear with that, the company.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yeah, I say no before I even talk about sending or
not sending anything.
I usually say no to most things.
If, for some reason, I havedecided that, yes, I would like
this thing to be sent, I sendthem the ethics statement page
and more than just here's a link.
Do you agree with it?
Because I don't even know ifthey're going to read that.
I specifically say I never makevideos in exchange for products
and you know I can't guaranteeanything.
(25:07):
Here's a link.
This expands it.
I give more details if it'srelevant to them specifically.
And if they come back and sayokay, I double check and say
okay, if you're I've used theterm if you're comfortable
sending this to a black hole,here's, here's our PO box at
that point and that's and that'sit.
And then usually the onlyfollow-up I'll do is I will
confirm with them once I receiveit, like, hey, I received a
(25:29):
thing today, thank you, becausethat just feels polite.
And they did send a thing.
I don't know if they know didyou get it or did you not get it
, and that's it.
And then, if I decide to do avideo on it at some point
sometimes I don't, sometimes itpops up in future videos or
whatever.
But the thing that was beingsaid in these videos was a lot
(25:51):
of people were saying I know youcan say that you don't care
about that, but that's BS, likethat's never true, because if
you say something bad, then thecompany doesn't want to send you
anything and you always want toprotect.
The company sends you stuff.
I'm like hey, don't speak forme or a bunch of other people
please, because I'm telling you.
The situation was a companysends something and there's no
obligation beyond that.
I can tell you from my point ofview.
(26:12):
I don't care if they sendanything else ever.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, like I have a whole I mean, but that's just
someone who just doesn't knowLike I get it, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
I'm hearing this in the videos from other creators.
Oh, creators, oh, I'm hearingthis in the videos from other
creators, oh creators, whichthen to me is like well, this
sort of tells me where you comefrom, when you say this.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Creators.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I really hear it from people in the comments who
maybe may or may not be othercreators, and lots of people
will say that kind of thing, butI have heard it from other
creators you want to keep thebrand.
You know you have to play thegame and you want to keep the
brand deal going, it's like, butyou this is more reason why
there needs to be a thing wherecreators who are up and running,
doing this thing can talkamongst each other.
(26:58):
Right, and you know it's, Idon't know and that's and, and
that's the thing where it's likeI don't want to be lumped in.
Just the the same way,everybody who does a brand deal
with Insta360 isn't necessarilydoing anything shady.
Look at Justine.
She followed every guidelineand more the required ones and
the recommended ones.
So no, I have zero feelingsabout her video being sponsored
(27:23):
when I watch it, because she'smade it super clear what the
situation is, and then I'llwatch the video.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
That's like I don't like it.
Like, oh, if somebody says thatthis was sent for free but
they're not under any obligation, they're still never going to
be honest about whatever thething is.
Or and the number of stuff thatI've, well, I have a whole
thing, but the number of stuffthat I've never talked about or
sent back or donated to charityor whatever, like it's a lot and
(27:51):
that just happens sometimes andthere's all kinds of different
reasons.
So I liked Heather's streambecause I felt like she pushed
back a little bit to sort ofthis like as a from the creator
perspective.
She pushed back Because thething that other creators
realize or don't realize is theysay something and it just it
can also just pile people on.
People love to hate youtubersand love to hate content
(28:13):
creators for one reason oranother.
And in her stream, oh, I wasvery active because I was like
outlining this podcast as herstream started and I was like,
oh my gosh, I have so manythoughts about this and and she
talked about the thing I justsaid the free products thing and
I said what I just said here inthe chat and her stream I said
you know, like I say that a lot,I've had to say that in videos
(28:35):
a lot and the thing I can sayfor myself is I 100% don't care
if the company ever does sendanything again Like it does not
matter.
And someone in the chat saidyeah, but us normies don't get
free products.
And so the argument is like evenif you receive a product,
you're receiving payment whichyou know like it's not.
(28:58):
It's not.
You're receiving a thing ofvalue which is what it says on
YouTube.
If you received anything ofvalue in exchange for this video
, you need to click this box.
Okay, if I received amicrophone, it could be a 300
microphone.
That's a thing of value.
I received.
Check this box.
Okay, I get that.
Is it the same as payment?
I don't know.
(29:18):
I can't pay our mortgage withthis microphone, like the bank
doesn't accept it as payment.
But I did receive a thing ofvalue.
The microphone cannot buy foodthe microphone cannot buy food
so even if you got all thesefree products and that's the
form of payment and you made abunch of videos, we still cannot
pay anything with all thatstuff well, and then, and then
it goes into yeah, but you'reable to make the videos and the
(29:40):
videos generate revenue, and youcould put an affiliate link in
the, in the description for thevideo.
So then you got paid because thething let you if they give you
a thing for free to let you earnmoney, which, like there,
that's not that that's untrue.
But then you're also forgettingthe part of where I made a
video and the thing that I couldnever say in the chat of
heather's live stream.
Uh, but I will say here whenthe guy said us normies don't
(30:02):
get free products, my thing thatI would have said to him was
did you also spend many yearsbuilding a channel like and?
And the example I have is likeif you start an entry-level job
position at a company on day oneand then you look at someone
who's been there for 15 yearsand you're like, oh, us normies
don't get the corner office withthe bigger salary, it's like,
(30:22):
well, no, not yet you could yeah, go ahead, you could, no one's
stopping you.
They have just done things thatyou have not yet done, to get to
a point where that's whathappens.
Like, did you spend seven yearsmaking 500 videos, and who
knows how many tens of thousandsof your own dollars or whatever
, to get, like, this free actioncamera or this microphone?
(30:44):
Like, yeah, yeah, normies don'tget free products.
I hate that.
You would say us normies.
That's the whole thing, though,and then that goes into another
thing, though, of like, okay,why accept anything for free?
Because this is something I'vethought many times.
It's like this pops up.
I have it's such a complexrelationship.
It can cause all these problems, miscommunications.
(31:05):
Why not never accept anythingfor free If there's something to
be on the channel, justsomething I paid for, which is
how the channel was when itstarted, obviously because I was
a normie quote unquote whowouldn't get anything for free.
So why not just do that, andthen you never have to have any
of these conversations?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Because then you say like I bought this.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Yeah, you just say, hey, you know, because.
Then you say, like I boughtthis.
Yeah, you just say, hey, youknow, there's plenty of stuff
that's on my channel all thetime that I bought that I never
have to then talk about BecauseI never have to click the box.
Regardless of anything, no onehas to think anything, Even
though I promise you when youbuy something with your own
(31:48):
money, like when I talk about mySony cameras, all three of
which I paid- full price for andlenses and everything.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
People were like oh, you say, this isn't sponsored.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
But it's totally BS.
This isn't sponsored.
They send you shills,everything my video about the M1
Mac mini.
When those came out, people arevery convinced that Apple sent
me that computer and that Ididn't just go to Best Buy and
buy it.
So there's a lose-lose therewhere, even if you buy something
, people don't believe that youdid unless you like.
Even if you put the receipt upon screen, I don't think anyone
would believe you.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
But well, that's not true, because you're now, you're
talking about I mean that's aspecific person yeah, that's a
minority, that's not everybodyyeah, I think most people,
especially on your channel, youknow, I think a large reason of
why you're uh, I don't know,I'll call them the true fans,
yeah coming back is because theythey know your ethic statement,
(32:34):
they know your approach and Ithink that's why they appreciate
your perspective on it which istrue in my case.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
That also means those people don't really care if it
was something I bought orsomething that was sent for free
, and so this is something.
This this is one of thosethings, like you were saying,
where we need like a thing forestablished creators to have
these conversations, becausewhen you're just starting out,
no one's going to send youanything.
It's not an option you have to.
If you want to featuresomething on a channel, you have
to buy it.
But then you get to this pointhere and I was very like well, I
(33:06):
just don't want to be sentstuff because I don't want to
deal with any of these things.
And then a thing that happenedas my channel grew is people
started sending messages hey,could you do a video about blank
?
And I would say like oh yeah, Idon't have that, sorry.
Like well, if you get it,people would even tell me I bet
if you reach out to the company,they would send you one, and
it's like and what I realizedwas it's kind of special that
(33:29):
somebody likes my videos enoughand the way I approach things
enough that they want to hear my, my specific opinion about this
thing.
I'm sure if they're doingresearch.
They're watching every videothey can find, every channel
they can find.
But it's really cool that theywant me to be included in that
group, right, like that's kindof a special thing.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
And so then I was thinking, okay, Because it goes
back to that sense of trust,right, like they appreciate your
perspective and if there'ssomething that they're looking
to compare or buy, well,wouldn't it be great if you
heard it from the person thatyou trust?
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah, and so what it kind of made me realize was well
, instead of trying to pleasethese people who are never going
to be happy and always thinkI'm a shady shill, no matter
what I do, what about trying toserve the people who like,
support and value what I do?
Right?
And so that means gettingsomething for free, like
(34:25):
sometimes because also we're notsuper rich and can't buy
everything for free.
There is kind of a thing oflike.
If something's like one to 200bucks typically and I'm
interested in it, then I don'tthink about it and I just order
it because you know that'sthat's pretty easy to justify.
But when we're talking aboutmore expensive things, most of
(34:45):
the time if it's not something Ineed, you know, like if I need
a new camera, I'm happy toinvest in the new camera because
I also don't have to make thedisclaimer like constantly
they're like oh well, I did sendit in every video.
Yeah, but there's other timeswhere it's like like a really
good example would be somethinglike the holliland mars wireless
video transmitter thing.
There are hd HDMI transmitters.
(35:07):
You put one, or there's atransmitter you put on your
camera, a receiver, you put yourcomputer recorder, whatever,
and you can transmit videowirelessly.
It's super cool.
It's like 700 bucks orsomething.
I was very curious about it.
I was not curious enough tospend $700 about it, but
especially when I was liketeaching and doing live
streaming stuff with thepandemic, I was like do these
wireless video things actuallywork?
And then Hollyland reached outand asked like hey, do you want
(35:30):
to try this out?
They were cool with the ethicsstatement.
So I said yes, because it wassomething I was curious about,
but not curious enough to investthat much of my own money in.
Now I know about it, I have anopinion about it, which is also
kind of part of it is like youknow, I feel like not only am I
(35:54):
curious about something like theMackie DLZ or the Boss
Gigcaster or whatever, but basedon what I do, it's beneficial
for me to actually understandthose things and have opinions
about them also.
So it's like there's kind ofthat part of it too, where just
being informed in your area,like I don't need to buy five
audio mixers as an individual.
If I were, if I were a normiewho didn't need to do this or or
wasn't in the position to beable to do this, I would just
buy one and stick with it tillit broke, yeah.
(36:17):
But there's, I feel like theidea of like being me being
well-informed or me being ableto I would guess I would call it
serve the people who supportwhat I do is work.
They don't care.
There's enough trust there thatthey don't think that I'm
saying something that I wouldn'tsay anyway just because
(36:38):
something was sent for free yeah, and that's something that you
built up over years yeah, thatguy who is a normie is like okay
, yeah, cool, but you couldtotally do this.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
But it's not just like you just start making
videos and that's it well, it isone of those.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
You call them like self-owns, because I would bet
in that guy's life there's areaswhere I'm a normie and he's you
know the I don't know what,what he's into or what he does
in his free time.
There's probably somethingwhere he gets maybe a little
special treatment, a little moreauthority, whatever you want to
call it that.
I wouldn't because I haven'tspent had the time that he has
spent building that up.
(37:14):
And that is true for everybodyand everything.
This is just one area of lifewhere things are a little
different, and so I was tryingto think, though, okay, if it,
if it, if it's not practical,it's not practical financially
to buy everything.
If you're like a product-focusedchannel and there's this weird
(37:35):
hesitation with getting stufffor free, what about not keeping
stuff?
What about stuff like sendingthings back to the companies or
using loaner programs, becausethose are kind of cool middle
grounds, right, like a companycould send me something and I
check it out, make a video.
When I'm done that, I just sendit back to them.
Or something I've done in thepast too is B&H has a loaner
(37:55):
program and I can just reach out.
I forget what they said, myprice limit was.
But they're like yeah, you know, just tell us you want to try
something.
They send it to me, I have 30days to use it and then I just
send it back and they're.
They're a middle ground ormiddle middleman sounds bad, but
they're not the manufacturer.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
And they, they, they know I'm not buying the thing,
but they just send it and that'sit.
So those are kind of cool, likesort of solutions, but even
those aren't perfect, and that'sthe thing that I feel like if
you're not a creator, you mightnot know, because it is very
helpful.
30 days really flies by, and ifyou're talking about something,
(38:34):
you know, if you're talkingabout something like a camera,
that can take a really long time.
I didn't really get the grip ofmy Sony cameras for like six
months, 30 days, and maybe if Ijust focus on that one thing all
day, every day, but if I'm thatinterested in something, I
would probably have just boughtit and not needed the loaner
program so it's like the 30 daywindow is sometimes just not
(38:56):
enough.
B&h is very good because theydon't care about what you say.
I have had other companiessimilar, like retailers offer to
send things, but what they willsay is if you don't like the
thing, send it back and checkout something else.
Like they.
Because even though they're notthe company, they still don't
want you to say, like this thingsucks, because then no one's
gonna buy it.
And so I have never loanedanything from anyone who has
(39:20):
said that bnh doesn't care.
They're just like yeah, let usknow what you want, they, they.
They understand.
Honest customer feedback andopinions are a good thing, but
still there's not always enoughtime, especially if you're
working on other things, to dealwith it in the amount of time.
Then there's also the thing oflike future comparisons.
(39:41):
Bronson and I were talkingabout this because we both have
a lot of microphones, because welike microphones Bronson from
Audio Hotline if you'relistening hi bronson and we were
talking about like how manymics we would have if we didn't
have youtube channels and wewouldn't each have one like
right, we would have many micsbecause we like it.
(40:01):
But we each definitely do havemicrophones that we wouldn't
have if we didn't have a youtubechannel, the reason being
because we keep them forcomparisons.
And that's why I even got mySM7B, which I really do like and
grew to love.
But the reason I got it wasjust because I knew anytime I
did a mic review, people willask how does it compare to the
SM7B?
So it made sense for me to havethat there.
And there are things like thatwhere it's like I don't
(40:23):
necessarily need this for me,but there's so many times we're
having this available to compareand and it makes you, uh,
create a thing that is morehelpful right to your audience.
Yeah and and stuff also getsupdates.
Like you know, like all themixers get firmware updates.
So if I, if I were to borrow aroadcaster for a month and
(40:45):
here's my opinion on it but ayear later it's gotten five
firmware updates and has allthese different features like
but now I don't, now my myexperience opinion everything's
totally out of date versus beingable to, like, stay up to date
on the thing that you'reinterested in, um, which is, I
say that coming from a place offun, like it's fun to to stay up
to date on this stuff.
(41:05):
And if I know people are goingto ask questions about it, I
like to at least try to givethem what I feel like is my most
accurate information at thetime.
So loaner programs and stuffcan be great, they're just not
the solution.
And then sending stuff back isanother one.
It would be great, I'd betotally fine.
Let me keep this as long as Ineed to and then just send it
back when I'm done.
(41:26):
Very few companies will let yousend stuff back yeah, which I
get.
It yeah, I get it.
They don't want to deal withthis.
What are they gonna?
It's like a return piece ofmerchandise.
They gotta like inventory ityeah, yeah a lot of companies
not fresh out of the box, youknow very few companies will, uh
, send you a shipping label sothey might say, like, if you
want to send it back, you can,but that's awesome when they are
(41:47):
based in another country acrossan ocean and now shipping is
going to be like 400 orsomething.
It's not practice.
So in theory I get what you'resaying.
Yeah, let me use this as longas I want and just send it back
to you.
They don't want the thing backor it's very expensive to send
back, which doesn't.
Again, it just doesn't makesense when you're just a person
(42:08):
trying to do, but I don't thinkpeople take those points into
consideration.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Of course, because they don't know which is like
you know yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
So those are kind of like my main thoughts on the
whole situation.
I wanted to point out the Instathing.
I wanted to talk about some ofthe other videos that have
popped up.
I really wanted to mentionHeather's stream, that kind of
pushed back a little bit, andthen sort of my thoughts on like
well, why even accept freestuff to begin with, because
then you don't have to deal withit if you never do that yeah um
(42:39):
.
So a couple last points.
I guess a thing that I did wantto did want to mention was, um,
this conversation isspecifically interesting to me
as someone who has talked aboutthis kind of thing and cares
about it a lot, from both aviewer and a creator standpoint,
and so we've talked about theethics statement page on my
(43:02):
website many times,no-transcript that have all
agreed to the ethics statementpage, and it was like it was a
thing that I was hesitant to dobecause I was kind of like, well
(43:23):
, you know, this is sort ofcalling things out and I was
trying to think like, why woulda brand not want to be listed
here If they agreed to dosomething with me?
Why would they not want to beon this page?
And the only reason I couldthink of would be because they
would not want to have the samedeal with other creators.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
You have now set an expectation.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Hey, this brand did this thing for Tom.
Why do they want to do adifferent thing for me?
And now you know, maybe they'rewilling to make that like, make
that exception for me, but notmake that exception for someone
else.
And my thought was well, ifthat's the case, screw that like
, yeah, exactly, I'm gonna tryto protect you.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
That's what I uh, that's what I've really
appreciated the way that you'vehandled your channel, because I
feel like you do it, so you'vedone it so differently from the
beginning and I think, like,especially when it comes to
integrity and ethics, honestly,I would go so far to say that
the way that you handle it islike completely unconventional.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
It's very weird.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Insane.
You know like people would belike.
There's literally talks atVidCon on how to make your
channel brand friendly.
You did the number one unbrandfriendly thing that you can do.
Um, but what I, what I've, whatI've seen happen since you do
these things, your viewers knowyou do these things and then
(44:52):
time passes by and it's fine isthat, in the world of content
creation, I believe thattransparency only makes
everything better, even if it'swild at first.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Like.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
I it, you know, I mean I think it's, I think it.
I don't know.
I don't know how other peoplehandle it, but from what I've
seen you do, it's like you are.
You are, by creating thisdocument, you're leaving money
on the table yes, a lot.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
You know, and so I can see why not every creator
would do that.
But if other, if other creatorswere to adopt this, you know, I
think it makes, I think ithelps creators as a whole.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Yeah, I mean, you know I, I know people have taken
and I didn't.
I'm not the one who came upwith the idea of having an
ethics statement anyway, whichI've talked about before, but I
also added that to the page tomake sure.
I got the idea from mr mobile'syoutube channel, which is like
a huge tech channel, and he hasa page on his website that goes
into excruciating detail on likehow he handles travel and hotel
(46:01):
accommodations and the reasonwhy I think it's different than
with you is because you're not amassive channel.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
You know like you're a I don't know small business
creator named tbd, normalcreator, average creator, middle
class creator, whatever youwant to call it.
Uh, you know where you to me, I, I hope it's clear that you do
not have this lavish, glamorouslifestyle where everything is
just you know.
(46:27):
You have all the disposableincome in the world to buy every
single thing that you arereviewing.
No, and even with heather'sapproach of like this is is my
business, this is my craft, andthis is why I approach it the
way that I do.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
Yeah, with two different approaches.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
And they're both fine .
And the thing that I liked whenI found the massive you know
channels because he even says inhis statement or his page I
forget what he calls it, but hesays that he doesn't even own
his channel.
It's owned by a company andhe's the one who runs the
channel.
But I really liked that.
I didn't even watch the stuff.
I heard him on a podcasttalking about it and I really
liked the transparency and Ithought there's no reason.
(47:07):
I, as I think this was, Iforget when I did the ethics
statements three or four yearsago, so it was, I don't know,
under 20,000 subscribers forsure.
It almost felt like overkillfor the time.
I was like if I could do thisfor myself, that would be cool.
And so I put mine together likethe first version of it, posted
it, and I got a lot of messagesfrom people saying I need to
(47:29):
take it down because it's goingto hurt me.
It's going to hurt brands andbrands, and the reason I wanted
to now, many years later, addspecific brands to it is because
it has turned brands awaythere's so many times.
I mean, by the time I get to thepoint where I'm even sending
that to somebody right likewe've are like they've already
(47:49):
cleared at least one hurdle inmy mind, but there's a lot of
times that I've sent that tothem and never heard anything
again yeah and that's that'swhat it is for.
Right, because when you look atthe list of brands that's there,
it's kind of amazing to havebeen able to cultivate a working
relationship.
They're quality.
It's something I'm proud of andI would hope they would be
(48:10):
proud too, but it's like it's avery select few and I feel like
it speaks to.
I feel like that speaks to theeffectiveness of doing things
this way, for me at least well.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
So, based on the brands that you've listed right,
see, this is this is how okay.
As an online content creator, Ican see how, like, obviously,
transparency is good for yourbusiness, right?
It's good for it's net good,right.
I can see how, uh, companiesare obviously a little more
(48:44):
discreet about theirtransparency and they might not
like it, but I do think it's anet good, especially for for
your I.
I guess my inkling is that thisis where it's going to end up
being, so maybe over here, it'skind of one of those things.
Like you know, two years fromnow, this is going to be the
(49:06):
normal thing, because we'verealized like it protects the
space for everyone the viewer,the creator and the business
partners.
That make the whole thing goyes, that make the whole thing
go is, and especially whenyou're alternative, alternative,
the other option is basicallyto be like hey, can you not tell
people that this is sponsored?
Like are you kidding?
(49:28):
Like why don't we just makethis win for everybody?
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Right and I think that's maybe why I've been so
interested in this is it feelslike a lot of creators and
viewers as a whole are sort oflike turning the corner to kind
of where we and I know a lot ofpeople who listen to this have
been for a while.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
And it kind of feels nice.
Okay, I know it's crazy, butmaybe it's not that crazy and
maybe it does make sense andthat's and it's hard.
I know when you're like a smallcreator and a brand approaches
you.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
I mean, it was me, that was me.
I got sent the $600 cool wheel,which, of course, I would never
buy.
Are you kidding?
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Right, when your channel was super small, I just
started getting out.
It's like a boosted boardcompetitor kind of.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
Thing.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
And it's, it's so hard, and the thing that I
didn't know how to navigate,that.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
I had no one to go to , I had no idea what the heck to
do.
But it's like you feelsuccessful because it's like oh,
look at this, like that's a lot, that's a high price product,
you know.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Yeah, and going back to you know, in the case of a
company like Insta saying don'tdisclose that something is
sponsored, obviously, like yousaid, they're risking your
channel's trust, your viewerstrust, like they're not looking
out in your best interest as acreator, exactly, and f that
like it takes one.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
In the world of content creation, where everyone
will pick apart your apology,couch video frame by frame, like
transparency and trust, is likethe most.
That's, that's the thing thatkeeps the whole thing going.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
Yes, and for somebody to ask you to compromise, that
is insane to me yes, and whenyou're a small creator, it can
be tricky, because sometimes abrand will say um, whether it's
a sponsored thing or they'resending you a product or
whatever.
They'll say like oh, we justlove your channel and what you
do.
Um, you know, we just want yourchannel and what you do.
You know, we just want, we justlove what you do.
Do this.
And then they send a thing andthen, if you agree, like, well,
(51:22):
I'll send you stuff for revision, all stuff.
They'll suddenly start tochange it a lot and you could
potentially find yourself going.
I thought you liked what I do.
Why are you changing everythingthat I do?
And the reason is they don'tactually care about you.
They care about your audienceand you are just.
They want their product.
You know whatever in yourstorefront on this street, they
(51:44):
want to be the window displayand they just whatever they need
to do to get in there.
They don't care about you.
That means the decisions they'remaking are not in your best
interest, and that even goes forthere can be times where you
feel like you have a goodworking relationship, but a
company like if they have aproduct release, if they have an
update, if they have somethingand they really want you to talk
about this thing or mayberelease a video by this date or
(52:04):
whatever that might not be inyour channel's best interest and
they're not trying to activelyharm your channel.
They only know what's in theirbest interest.
And their best interest is wespent, you know, three years
working on this product.
It's finally released.
Please tell people about it.
But you're like, well, I've gotthis whole plan of videos and
I'm in this type of contentright now.
So maybe that they're not, evenin the best case scenario,
(52:27):
they're not always aware of orable to look out for your best
interests, and you have to dothat for yourself and that's a
very hard thing to learn andnavigate as you grow as a
content creator.
Yeah, I don't know who wouldwanna as a content creator.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
Yeah, I don't know who would want to be a content
creator so hard.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
I mean it is the best .
Speaker 2 (52:46):
It is the best.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
These are the things, though, little things that pop
up that maybe, when you clickcreate channel, you didn't think
about.
Right, exactly, and so that'swhy I wanted to talk about that
today.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Yeah, and thank you for helping me figure that out.
It's a good conversation Iabout that today.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
Yeah, and thank you for helping me figure that out.
It's a good conversation, Ihave fun, and if you had fun or
you had thoughts you didn't havefun and you had thoughts you
can always send an email to Tomat enthusiasmprojectcom or go to
hi, my name is Tom dot com andclick the little voice memo
thing and then you'll have amessage in time for next week
week's episode, which is theseason 12 finale.
Cool, if people want to checkout more of what heather does,
(53:22):
where should they go?
heather just create on youtubeall right, uh, thank you for
listening.
I appreciate it very much.
I hope you have a safe, happy,healthy, fun rest of your week
and we will see you next timeyou.
Thank you, hello and welcome.
(00:33):
My name is Tom.
This is the Enthusiasm Project,season 12, episode 9.
And today we've got a finetopic all about some really fun
stuff that's been happening andto help me navigate this, I have
my lovely wife Heather backagain.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Wow, that's such a good hello, alrighty.
So today there's been a littlebit well, actually not today,
but recently there has been alittle bit of I don't know I
guess you could call it drama alittle bit of tea, happening in
the starting primarily in thecamera YouTube space, but then
spilling over into biggerconversations all about brands
(01:14):
and sponsorships and shillingand all of that kind of stuff,
shilling.
So that's we are, and there'sbeen a lot.
And if you're listening to this, you probably know some of the
stuff I'm'm referring to whichwe will kind of dive into,
because it sort of fitsperfectly into stuff we've
talked about a lot on thispodcast in the past.
But I didn't want to dive inright when all this stuff was
(01:34):
happening.
I wanted to kind of wait and,like, see some responses, form
some thoughts, let the dustsettle and then jump in.
But before before we do that,before we do that, I just have
to explain what we're using.
Today we are back on theRodecaster Pro 2 because in my
new office setup we can just putthe table in the middle.
We can face each other acrossthe table.
(01:55):
I've got the Rodecaster Pro 2on the table, two microphones.
It's super easy, peasy and Ireally love it, and I am using
the Earthworks Ethos on thegeneric condenser setting and
Heather is once again on theShure SM58 on my custom SM7B
preset, because I really, reallyreally liked how that sounded
last week and I just want to useit again this week.
(02:17):
Cool, so that's what we'reusing.
Okay, so where to begin?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
so I only know just tidbits of what you've kind of
shared.
I have.
You know I haven't beenfollowing, so maybe for the
people who don't know what'shappening you can give a little
bit of a tldr situation yeah,this all started with the
biggest troublemaker on youtube,one of the most controversial
creators on the platform, faroukfrom iPhone dough.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I laugh because he's absolutely not that at all.
He's been around forever.
I mean literally like the oneof his most popular videos,
which he mentioned in his videoabout Insta, was his GoPro Karma
review, which was GoPro's dronefrom like 10 years ago and
GoPro tried to make a drone.
It just wasn't good and he kindof said that he's like I would
(03:10):
like this to be good, but itjust doesn't work and he's great
.
He and he's, you know,definitely like an independent
creator does everything himselfand he is known for being like
just a pretty nice low key.
He is known for being like justa pretty nice low-key, super
fun, super kind of laid-back guy, and so when somebody like that
says something, you kind oflisten, because they don't
(03:31):
normally say those sorts ofthings.
So what happened?
Uh, right after nab which isvery funny because we got to
meet him briefly at nab rightacross in the insta360 booth,
just by coincidence, he was verynice.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
He was very nice, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
After that he had posted a thing on Instagram that
was it started in an Instagramstory and it was him.
It was like a thing postingscreenshots from an email that
was not to him but was tosomebody else.
And then it was a link to athing on threads.
So Instagram's like Twitteralternative, which neither you
(04:11):
and I are signed up for.
So normally I can't read thingson threads.
I don't know what kind of linkhe posted, but I could actually
read the thread on threads andit was.
Somebody had posted a coupledifferent email screenshots from
insta360 wanting to work withthem and saying specifically,
saying uh, we preferred, if youdid not disclose that, this,
(04:33):
that these videos are sponsored,because that feels more organic
and authentic and natural andand the person was like this is
insane, and they had twodifferent instances of being
asked that and then shared it onthreads, and so there was a
whole bunch of replies there.
Farouk saw that and you knowthis is at least what I saw on
on what I saw through my lens,so you know I could be wrong in
(04:57):
some cases, but from what I know, he saw that he had been
working with Insta 360,personally not liking the way
they were starting to do things.
And then he started.
He posted a thing that wassaying that he's going to stop
working with them for thesereasons, and then he also
followed that up with a YouTubevideo explaining basically
explaining this whole situation.
(05:18):
So I'll link to that video inthe show notes if you want to
know this like from the source,instead of you know hearsay
third party.
You want to know this like fromthe source instead of you know,
hearsay third party, whatever,you can go watch that.
But that's basically it was.
Insta has apparently beenasking people to not disclose
that videos are sponsored, whichis bad, like if that's what's
happening?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
that's bad and because it's wrong.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
It's wrong, it's like it's ethically wrong.
It's also straight up illegalin a lot of places, because you
have to, as a creator, as aninfluencer, whatever you want to
call it you have to disclose.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I want to make it clear that it's not an opinion.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, this is a thing that you could.
I forget what the fine is.
It's a massive fine.
It's like a five figure $50,000fine or something If you're
found guilty of not disclosingthings like this.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Don't know how often that's enforced, right, but the
ftc?
Uh wait, is it the fcc?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
oh, my god, I've been watching so many videos about
this.
Well, let me be yeah, yes, ftcokay, thank you, wow.
Thanks, mr mathers, 20 yearslater well, speaking of shady,
they were doing a couple thingsthat were not slim shady but big
shady and yeah so.
So that's that's essentiallywhat started this conversation,
(06:33):
which then delved into.
Once he said something othercreators popped up, not just
talking about insta but talkingabout other companies, and then
other creators popped up makingvideos that were just not even
about companies, just about thewhole system in general of like
sponsorships and products, andand then people popped up with
counterpoints.
There's been a whole thing thatkind of like started from this
(06:55):
one, this one incident here, andthat's I wanted to kind of look
at that from like every angle.
So, sticking with the instathing to just kind of wrap that
up and give some context, uh,have they responded?
Not that I'm aware of, okay, butsomebody in the thread on
threads which is a very funthing to say in the comments
(07:16):
there said they had had thissame issue last august and they
had been asked not to disclosestuff and they said, like we
can't do that, that's againstthe law, I need to disclose
things.
And they they said, like wecan't do that, that's against
the law, I need to disclosethings.
And they sort of called themout on it and they came back
saying oh, it's a translationerror, because it's a
China-based company.
English is not the firstlanguage that most people are
dealing with.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Oh, it's translation error, which is total bull.
I'll tell you that right now,because I don't know where the
headquarters is, but I used towork out of a WeWork, a
co-working space, in China yeah,no, in Long Beach, california,
and they had a headquartersthere.
And that's when you know thisis 2016.
So they were that might havebeen the only satellite office
(07:59):
at the time.
They've grown a lot, they'vegrown a lot, yeah, but no,
there's definitely on our coast.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah, have grown a lot.
They've grown a lot, yeah, butno, there's definitely on our
coast.
Yeah, no, I mean that.
It's a thing that I've heard uhused many times like
translation errors.
But it's funny because, likethere's no other translation
errors ever, like everythingelse is very clear, very well
written, very professional, easyto understand english, and
suddenly it's like, oh, no, no,no, that was, that was just a
translation error.
Um, what they had said to thisperson was we meant to make any
(08:28):
video that you want.
Don't make a commercial for it,don't make like a sponsored
video, but make your video thatfeels natural or whatever, which
would great.
I'd love it if a company I loveit when companies tell people
to do that.
The fact that then theycontinue to use the same
language repeatedly with othercreators makes me think that
wasn't a translation error.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Um, also, the fact that just wasn't a well, that
and like, if a random creatorreached out to you and asked for
a sponsorship, you wouldimmediately attach that with
money, so obviously you know themeaning of it I mean, if you're
the person who's in charge oflike doing sponsorship for a big
company obviously.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Obviously that's the case, and so in Farouk's video
he talked about how hisrelationship with them had
changed over the years.
It wasn't always like this.
I've worked with them twice inthe past, um, and both times
have been great.
They sent me the 1x2 360 cameraback in September of 2021 and
that was, you know, the wholeethics statement thing.
They're just like.
I think they had seen a video Idid on a Samsung 360 camera
(09:27):
years ago and it was socomplicated.
It was really cool.
It was so complicated to usethat.
Then they wanted to send methat.
It wasn't even when it wasreleased.
It was like months and monthsafter it was out.
It wasn't a new thing oranything, and I loved it because
it was so like they took thisreally complicated thing and
made it so easy.
There was no obligation on mypart.
(09:50):
I ended up making a video, likeI don't know, seven months
later because I had used it alot and really liked it.
And then maybe I think this waslate 2022 they sent me the link
webcam, the one that followsyou around a lot, which I also
liked and I was interested in.
I'm not a webcam guy, but I wascurious about some of the
higher end webcams with moreinteresting features, because
not everyone needs like settingup a streaming thing or a video
call thing.
You don't need a mirrorlesscamera, it's not right for
(10:12):
everybody.
And it was funny because I wason the B&H website like looking
at the Link webcam.
At this time I got an emailthat said, hey, do you want to
try our Link webcam?
Okay, it's the same thing.
It was like all the wholeethics statement.
So that was late 2022, maybeearly 2023, and both of my
experiences are the same.
They sent the thing and therewas basically no follow-up.
(10:33):
So that's kind of how it shouldbe based on what we had agreed
on.
But that's the only times I'veever interacted with them, done
anything with them no moneychanged hands, anything like
that.
Um, and apparently that's kindof how they used to be and it's.
It's only more recently thatthey've gotten a little more
aggressive.
From what I've heard othercreators say now in all these
(10:53):
different videos and things, andfrouk sort of guessed that the
reason for that was because whenthey were just the 360 camera
company they were dominating,but then they tried to branch
out into like more generalizedaction cameras and cameras and
now you're competing with djiand gopro, and of those three
big names, they're definitelylike the third place one.
(11:14):
And so now they're I don't knowwhat it is they're panicking.
They're trying to like reallyget stuff going.
They invested a lot of stuff inthese other things.
I don't know what it is.
Something shifted, maybe it'sthe management change or who
knows what.
Ow, oh, I really hit my knee onthe table right there.
But things changed ouch and uh,and that's kind of where we're
(11:34):
at now is people who've workedwith them for a long time have
noticed a notice, the changeeven before this, and just how
they're they're being dealt with, and so that's kind of the
insta 360 side of things whichis such a shame because it's I
don't, I don't, I don't knowpeople.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Money makes people weird, but like if you just kept
going and worked with creators,like, why do you?
Why do you have to be shady?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
it's the same.
I don't.
How do you the products are?
Speaker 2 (12:04):
good.
Why would you risk?
It takes one creator to just betransparent about what's
happening and you are done likeI cannot believe yeah, I don't
know how, because now like, okay, the real frustrating part is
the products are good.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah, why don't you?
Speaker 2 (12:18):
why do you have to be shady?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
that's why.
Why do you have to?
Speaker 2 (12:22):
and and now it's this weird thing too like I'm so
confused, like I want to be, Iwant to go talk to the vp of
marketing.
What was your?
Because obviously this is likenot just one person, right, this
is multiple people dealing withmultiple creators.
So was this a water coolerconversation?
(12:43):
Was this a meeting?
Was this a?
Do they have to like?
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, did someone go rogue and try to like juice up
some deals to impress their boss?
Or is this a company policy?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
I mean it shouldn't have happened, period.
It doesn't even Right, it'sjust such a shame.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
It's frustrating because the things are good.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I don't know how you come back from that in terms of
like organic marketing and it is, it's like one of the true
creator, focused companies,which is why it's so
disappointing.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yeah, and now it kind of makes you look at the
creators who are doing sponsoredor I guess maybe even not
anything any insta 360 content alittle bit like so did you say
yes to that?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
to?
The shady deal, I mean andthat's what like.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
One of the people who commented on Farouk's video was
iJustine, who does a lot ofInsta360 videos.
But I looked at her one for themost recent release, the X4,
and she says the video issponsored, says it in the video.
There's a thing on screen thatsays it's sponsored.
She checked the paid promotionbox that it's sponsored and the
first line of description isthat it's sponsored.
So it's sponsored and the firstline of the description is that
(13:50):
it's sponsored.
So it's very clear that it's asponsored video.
Thank you, we check some otherother creators, uh, peter
mckinnon being a good example.
Nothing in the description, noproduct thing checked.
Did not say it on screen, butdoes have a full screen pop-up
that says sponsored by insta360at 1 minute 50 seconds into the
video, didn't?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
check the box.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Didn't check the box.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Okay, see, that's not that.
I feel like that.
I feel like that's wrong.
I feel like, as YouTubecreators, we know like, when it
comes to how you do your titles,how you do your thumbnails,
dealer's choice, but no, when itcomes to we as a whole, as a
company, as a community, thisbox is here for a reason.
(14:26):
This is how this box is used.
It's not just for you, it'salso for the viewers that are
watching your content and foryou.
To that, I'm not cool with thatit's.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
I mean, I have opinions on the box because it
there's.
It's.
There's no clarification, likeif you get a six-figure
sponsorship deal or someonesends you a $20 product.
You check the same box and itgives the same disclaimer.
And I think the way some peoplekind of justify going around it
is checking the box is not anFTC requirement, it's a YouTube
guideline.
The FTC says you need todisclose it in all these
(14:58):
different ways saying it onscreen, putting it in
descriptions and it does say weencourage you to use platform I
forget the exact wording, butthey encourage you to use
platform.
I forget the exact wording, butthey encourage you to use
platform, specific things, butknow that that might not be
enough.
So if you just check the boxand do nothing else, that might
not be enough.
Um, but if we're all trying toplay in good faith which, yeah,
you know like it's good foreverybody, if everybody's kind
(15:20):
of playing, we all know thespirit of the box.
Well, it's also there is a thing.
So from a viewer standpoint, itdefinitely makes you kind of
question things and even withother companies in the past I
say no to most companies thatreach out but there have been
(15:40):
companies who say you know crazystuff, Like here we have this
like piece of crap product andwe want to pay you essentially
nothing and in return you giveus like 10 videos and four reels
and whatever you know, likekind of the most horrific brand
deal ever.
You need to post a thing on theembargo.
This is before, like I don'teven talk to these companies,
this is just in the cold emailthat shows up.
(16:01):
You know nope, delete, nope,delete, whatever.
But then you look whatever,that embargo date is june 1st or
something we'll say.
And then june 1st rolls aroundand you see all these videos pop
out and you know I knoweveryone has their individual
deals, but it's like wow, I kindof know what you agreed to you
know what you were approachedwith?
(16:22):
yeah, yeah, I know what I wasapproached with and I know
you're doing a thing for thepeople I was approached with and
now that's always kind of beena thing in the YouTube world.
But you don't know whatanyone's individual deals are,
so you can't assume.
But now that's even.
It's a little more open foreven viewers to understand like,
hey, this company operates thisway.
I don't work with them anymore.
(16:42):
But then the next week when acreator posts a video, working
with them.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
You know a viewer thinking critically might make
some connections or have somethoughts.
Here's the reason why I thinkit's like super shady, because
the most valuable resource for acreator, the most precious
valuable resource that leads tosuccess or growth or anything,
is the trust of their audience.
And so for you to even hint atcompromising that f you bro like
(17:16):
I mean and and that's the thingwhere it's like no company I
get that everyone is gonnahandle it differently,
everyone's got their individualthings, but it's such a fickle
thing as soon as trust iscompromised, that could be, you
know, months of trying to comeback from that, from as a
(17:38):
creator yeah, I don't and that'sso hard, you know in this case.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
We've talked about large channels who said I don't
know what.
I don't know what you know, say, the smallest creators they're
approaching are, in this case.
But if you're significantlysmaller, not doing this full
time, probably a lot less pulland influence than someone like
iPhonedo does or iJustine.
You can tell how long they'vebeen on the platform just based
(18:03):
on their names.
Um, you can tell how longthey've been on the platform
just based on their names, uh.
But if you're not that personand then this company approaches
you with a deal, that feelskind of weird, how do you even
navigate?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
How do you know what's weird?
Is this just?
Speaker 1 (18:11):
how it's done?
Are you going to be allured bythe, the flashy name that you've
seen big creators also workwith?
Are you going to feel safeworking with them because you've
seen bigger people working withthem?
Like You've seen bigger peopleworking with them.
There's so many, it's such ahard thing to navigate.
So that's that.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Do you have any gauge on how viewers feel Like?
Speaker 1 (18:36):
non-creators.
I mean just from the commentson the videos that I've been
putting out, which, like mostpeople, are at least the
comments I've seen most peopleare agreeing with the creators
on these different videos.
Because Farouk did his video, acouple other people have like
hinted, either online or invideos, about Insta360.
And then other people did justlike general what it's like
(18:57):
working with brand and branddeals, suck kind of videos, and
the comments of those arelargely supportive and largely
people like really appreciatingtransparency between the creator
and the viewer.
And then there's still peoplewho pop up Like I left a.
I left a comment on Farouk'svideo that said, wow, this made
me do a 180 on Insta 360, whichI was very proud of, um.
(19:17):
And then, like four days later,someone said, like who gives an
F?
Like if I want to buy this S,I'm just going to buy it.
If I want the 360 camera to buythis, like, okay, good for you.
I don't, the cameras are stillgood, but you know, in terms of
like running a business as a,yeah, like obviously we care,
(19:37):
you know.
Yeah, well, you know, I get itand it's.
It's frustrating, and it's thesame thing, though.
Um, it's the same.
I don't know it's frustrating,and it's the same thing, though
it's the same, I don't know,it's just frustrating because
the products are good.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yes, why did you have to say this?
Speaker 1 (19:49):
You had.
It's like taking.
You could have just kept going.
It's like if someone were tobuy a brand that is known
globally so much so that usingit is in the dictionary and then
change the entire brand to justa random letter from the
alphabet instead.
It's an insane deal.
Nobody would ever do such athing.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
So there have been lots of video responses to that.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Okay, um, mostly people like taking, taking their
own spin and like adding to it,not necessarily responding to
his, but now doing their ownversion.
That's what's created sort ofthis dialogue beyond just insta
360, and I think that's cool,but I also so okay.
It kind of has led to thisthing, though, where people are
(20:30):
saying like, yeah, brands suckand brand deals suck, and this,
that and the other thing, andnow it's like, okay, don't paint
it that.
I'm saying this, don't paint it, that everyone who does a brand
deal sucks.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Brand deals are not inherently evil.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Or shady or anything.
They can work out great.
It's all about how you navigatethat thing can work out great.
It's all about how you navigatethat thing.
And that also then led intothis conversation, where it
feels like a lot of peoplewatching these videos only feel
like negative reviews are honestyeah, no, you're only gonna say
positive things.
Because you're sponsored, whichyou know we've talked about here
.
Like, personally, I mean Idon't do.
(21:01):
I don't do a lot of sponsoredcontent.
Sometimes brands send stuff butby the time I've made a video
about it it means I like thething.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
I just don't want to spend my time making a video on
something that's the same thingabout, like why I don't write
negative yelp reviews yeah, Ijust like I don't want to draw
unless you've done somethingegregiously bad, then yeah,
that's one thing, but it's justnot worth my time.
I don't want to draw attentionto it.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
And also, you know, like as a Yelp review, I know
how bad one review can likedamage you know, and I don't
want to be the person who doesthat, if there's something that
I feel like it's almost like itneeds to be a public service
announcement, to make it likethis is bad and shady Exactly.
That's different, but that'spretty rare.
Most of the time it's personalopinion.
(21:49):
So if there's something in mysphere that comes out where it
feels like this should be onTom's channel and I don't say
anything about it, I don't makeany videos about it.
It shows you my level ofinterest or my opinion on the
thing, I don't know which one.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Plus.
It's so much more fun talkingabout things that you're excited
legit excited about.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah, I'd way rather do that than because then I'm
going to deal with you know ifit's a sponsorship, like
obviously there's a way to makeit work for everybody, you know.
Well, so that ties me into thensort of this other thing.
There's been all.
There's been this whole influxand I think it's kind of died
down now, which is why I wantedto wait, you know, a week or two
, to do this podcast.
It doesn't seem like thosevideos are popping up as much
(22:26):
anymore.
But then Heather, from thefellow filmmaker YouTube channel
who we also got to meet andhang out with at NAB.
She did a live stream last weekon her channel.
It was called there's a problemwith my channel and she.
She talked about this a lot andshe pushed back with a
different perspective.
(22:46):
That I thought was veryinteresting, because nobody else
I hadn't heard her perspectivebeing shared.
It was sort of everyone kind ofjumping on the brand deals,
suck train and you shouldn't beable to do.
You know, you shouldn't.
Basically, like no one shouldever make money off their
youtube channel, which is it's.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
It's just not a it's no, yeah, I don't know Hard no
to that, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
And that's me saying that.
That's that's how I felt to me,that that is an immature
viewpoint, because that's how Ifelt when I had no experience on
the platform and I was like,yeah, this is not a source of
income, this is not anything.
I had no experience, nomaturity on the platform and
that's what I felt like, and Ifeel like it's a gut reaction of
like.
Sure, in an ideal world,everybody can just do whatever
(23:30):
their heart desires at all times, with no.
Okay, that's not the world welive in and there are ways to
balance it.
But one of the things thatheather said in her stream was,
um, that she has gotten to apoint where, because she does
need her business to be abusiness, she doesn't.
She never accepts free products, she only accepts sponsorships.
(23:52):
So if a company wants to sendsomething, they also need to pay
her.
And I thought that was veryinteresting because that's
that's a different approach fromwhat I have.
But she explained it veryclearly.
She talked about running herthing as a business.
She's also, you know, she'sbeen at it for many years.
So I feel like she's built upcredibility and the thing with
her is she does, she sends thething they pay.
She uses it, test it out,reviews it, makes her video
(24:16):
about it and sometimes it'snegative, or you know, like she,
she is fair and balanced andthat's the thing.
That's the thing that popped upin a lot of the response videos
, which I didn't like because Ifelt like people were speaking
for me.
Where a big criticism was, ifpeople say the thing I've had to
say many times, they sent thisfor free, but I'm under no
obligation to say anything ormake a video or whatever, which
(24:37):
is true Whenever a company hassent anything to me for free,
ever.
I'm never under obligation tomake a video about it.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
You make that clear with that, the company.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yeah, I say no before I even talk about sending or
not sending anything.
I usually say no to most things.
If, for some reason, I havedecided that, yes, I would like
this thing to be sent, I sendthem the ethics statement page
and more than just here's a link.
Do you agree with it?
Because I don't even know ifthey're going to read that.
I specifically say I never makevideos in exchange for products
and you know I can't guaranteeanything.
(25:07):
Here's a link.
This expands it.
I give more details if it'srelevant to them specifically.
And if they come back and sayokay, I double check and say
okay, if you're I've used theterm if you're comfortable
sending this to a black hole,here's, here's our PO box at
that point and that's and that'sit.
And then usually the onlyfollow-up I'll do is I will
confirm with them once I receiveit, like, hey, I received a
(25:29):
thing today, thank you, becausethat just feels polite.
And they did send a thing.
I don't know if they know didyou get it or did you not get it
, and that's it.
And then, if I decide to do avideo on it at some point
sometimes I don't, sometimes itpops up in future videos or
whatever.
But the thing that was beingsaid in these videos was a lot
(25:51):
of people were saying I know youcan say that you don't care
about that, but that's BS, likethat's never true, because if
you say something bad, then thecompany doesn't want to send you
anything and you always want toprotect.
The company sends you stuff.
I'm like hey, don't speak forme or a bunch of other people
please, because I'm telling you.
The situation was a companysends something and there's no
obligation beyond that.
I can tell you from my point ofview.
(26:12):
I don't care if they sendanything else ever.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, like I have a whole I mean, but that's just
someone who just doesn't knowLike I get it, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
I'm hearing this in the videos from other creators.
Oh, creators, oh, I'm hearingthis in the videos from other
creators, oh creators, whichthen to me is like well, this
sort of tells me where you comefrom, when you say this.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Creators.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I really hear it from people in the comments who
maybe may or may not be othercreators, and lots of people
will say that kind of thing, butI have heard it from other
creators you want to keep thebrand.
You know you have to play thegame and you want to keep the
brand deal going, it's like, butyou this is more reason why
there needs to be a thing wherecreators who are up and running,
doing this thing can talkamongst each other.
(26:58):
Right, and you know it's, Idon't know and that's and, and
that's the thing where it's likeI don't want to be lumped in.
Just the the same way,everybody who does a brand deal
with Insta360 isn't necessarilydoing anything shady.
Look at Justine.
She followed every guidelineand more the required ones and
the recommended ones.
So no, I have zero feelingsabout her video being sponsored
(27:23):
when I watch it, because she'smade it super clear what the
situation is, and then I'llwatch the video.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
That's like I don't like it.
Like, oh, if somebody says thatthis was sent for free but
they're not under any obligation, they're still never going to
be honest about whatever thething is.
Or and the number of stuff thatI've, well, I have a whole
thing, but the number of stuffthat I've never talked about or
sent back or donated to charityor whatever, like it's a lot and
(27:51):
that just happens sometimes andthere's all kinds of different
reasons.
So I liked Heather's streambecause I felt like she pushed
back a little bit to sort ofthis like as a from the creator
perspective.
She pushed back Because thething that other creators
realize or don't realize is theysay something and it just it
can also just pile people on.
People love to hate youtubersand love to hate content
(28:13):
creators for one reason oranother.
And in her stream, oh, I wasvery active because I was like
outlining this podcast as herstream started and I was like,
oh my gosh, I have so manythoughts about this and and she
talked about the thing I justsaid the free products thing and
I said what I just said here inthe chat and her stream I said
you know, like I say that a lot,I've had to say that in videos
(28:35):
a lot and the thing I can sayfor myself is I 100% don't care
if the company ever does sendanything again Like it does not
matter.
And someone in the chat saidyeah, but us normies don't get
free products.
And so the argument is like evenif you receive a product,
you're receiving payment whichyou know like it's not.
(28:58):
It's not.
You're receiving a thing ofvalue which is what it says on
YouTube.
If you received anything ofvalue in exchange for this video
, you need to click this box.
Okay, if I received amicrophone, it could be a 300
microphone.
That's a thing of value.
I received.
Check this box.
Okay, I get that.
Is it the same as payment?
I don't know.
(29:18):
I can't pay our mortgage withthis microphone, like the bank
doesn't accept it as payment.
But I did receive a thing ofvalue.
The microphone cannot buy foodthe microphone cannot buy food
so even if you got all thesefree products and that's the
form of payment and you made abunch of videos, we still cannot
pay anything with all thatstuff well, and then, and then
it goes into yeah, but you'reable to make the videos and the
(29:40):
videos generate revenue, and youcould put an affiliate link in
the, in the description for thevideo.
So then you got paid because thething let you if they give you
a thing for free to let you earnmoney, which, like there,
that's not that that's untrue.
But then you're also forgettingthe part of where I made a
video and the thing that I couldnever say in the chat of
heather's live stream.
Uh, but I will say here whenthe guy said us normies don't
(30:02):
get free products, my thing thatI would have said to him was
did you also spend many yearsbuilding a channel like and?
And the example I have is likeif you start an entry-level job
position at a company on day oneand then you look at someone
who's been there for 15 yearsand you're like, oh, us normies
don't get the corner office withthe bigger salary, it's like,
(30:22):
well, no, not yet you could yeah, go ahead, you could, no one's
stopping you.
They have just done things thatyou have not yet done, to get to
a point where that's whathappens.
Like, did you spend seven yearsmaking 500 videos, and who
knows how many tens of thousandsof your own dollars or whatever
, to get, like, this free actioncamera or this microphone?
(30:44):
Like, yeah, yeah, normies don'tget free products.
I hate that.
You would say us normies.
That's the whole thing, though,and then that goes into another
thing, though, of like, okay,why accept anything for free?
Because this is something I'vethought many times.
It's like this pops up.
I have it's such a complexrelationship.
It can cause all these problems, miscommunications.
(31:05):
Why not never accept anythingfor free If there's something to
be on the channel, justsomething I paid for, which is
how the channel was when itstarted, obviously because I was
a normie quote unquote whowouldn't get anything for free.
So why not just do that, andthen you never have to have any
of these conversations?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Because then you say like I bought this.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Yeah, you just say, hey, you know, because.
Then you say, like I boughtthis.
Yeah, you just say, hey, youknow, there's plenty of stuff
that's on my channel all thetime that I bought that I never
have to then talk about BecauseI never have to click the box.
Regardless of anything, no onehas to think anything, Even
though I promise you when youbuy something with your own
(31:48):
money, like when I talk about mySony cameras, all three of
which I paid- full price for andlenses and everything.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
People were like oh, you say, this isn't sponsored.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
But it's totally BS.
This isn't sponsored.
They send you shills,everything my video about the M1
Mac mini.
When those came out, people arevery convinced that Apple sent
me that computer and that Ididn't just go to Best Buy and
buy it.
So there's a lose-lose therewhere, even if you buy something
, people don't believe that youdid unless you like.
Even if you put the receipt upon screen, I don't think anyone
would believe you.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
But well, that's not true, because you're now, you're
talking about I mean that's aspecific person yeah, that's a
minority, that's not everybodyyeah, I think most people,
especially on your channel, youknow, I think a large reason of
why you're uh, I don't know,I'll call them the true fans,
yeah coming back is because theythey know your ethic statement,
(32:34):
they know your approach and Ithink that's why they appreciate
your perspective on it which istrue in my case.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
That also means those people don't really care if it
was something I bought orsomething that was sent for free
, and so this is something.
This this is one of thosethings, like you were saying,
where we need like a thing forestablished creators to have
these conversations, becausewhen you're just starting out,
no one's going to send youanything.
It's not an option you have to.
If you want to featuresomething on a channel, you have
to buy it.
But then you get to this pointhere and I was very like well, I
(33:06):
just don't want to be sentstuff because I don't want to
deal with any of these things.
And then a thing that happenedas my channel grew is people
started sending messages hey,could you do a video about blank
?
And I would say like oh yeah, Idon't have that, sorry.
Like well, if you get it,people would even tell me I bet
if you reach out to the company,they would send you one, and
it's like and what I realizedwas it's kind of special that
(33:29):
somebody likes my videos enoughand the way I approach things
enough that they want to hear my, my specific opinion about this
thing.
I'm sure if they're doingresearch.
They're watching every videothey can find, every channel
they can find.
But it's really cool that theywant me to be included in that
group, right, like that's kindof a special thing.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
And so then I was thinking, okay, Because it goes
back to that sense of trust,right, like they appreciate your
perspective and if there'ssomething that they're looking
to compare or buy, well,wouldn't it be great if you
heard it from the person thatyou trust?
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah, and so what it kind of made me realize was well
, instead of trying to pleasethese people who are never going
to be happy and always thinkI'm a shady shill, no matter
what I do, what about trying toserve the people who like,
support and value what I do?
Right?
And so that means gettingsomething for free, like
(34:25):
sometimes because also we're notsuper rich and can't buy
everything for free.
There is kind of a thing oflike.
If something's like one to 200bucks typically and I'm
interested in it, then I don'tthink about it and I just order
it because you know that'sthat's pretty easy to justify.
But when we're talking aboutmore expensive things, most of
(34:45):
the time if it's not something Ineed, you know, like if I need
a new camera, I'm happy toinvest in the new camera because
I also don't have to make thedisclaimer like constantly
they're like oh well, I did sendit in every video.
Yeah, but there's other timeswhere it's like like a really
good example would be somethinglike the holliland mars wireless
video transmitter thing.
There are hd HDMI transmitters.
(35:07):
You put one, or there's atransmitter you put on your
camera, a receiver, you put yourcomputer recorder, whatever,
and you can transmit videowirelessly.
It's super cool.
It's like 700 bucks orsomething.
I was very curious about it.
I was not curious enough tospend $700 about it, but
especially when I was liketeaching and doing live
streaming stuff with thepandemic, I was like do these
wireless video things actuallywork?
And then Hollyland reached outand asked like hey, do you want
(35:30):
to try this out?
They were cool with the ethicsstatement.
So I said yes, because it wassomething I was curious about,
but not curious enough to investthat much of my own money in.
Now I know about it, I have anopinion about it, which is also
kind of part of it is like youknow, I feel like not only am I
(35:54):
curious about something like theMackie DLZ or the Boss
Gigcaster or whatever, but basedon what I do, it's beneficial
for me to actually understandthose things and have opinions
about them also.
So it's like there's kind ofthat part of it too, where just
being informed in your area,like I don't need to buy five
audio mixers as an individual.
If I were, if I were a normiewho didn't need to do this or or
wasn't in the position to beable to do this, I would just
buy one and stick with it tillit broke, yeah.
(36:17):
But there's, I feel like theidea of like being me being
well-informed or me being ableto I would guess I would call it
serve the people who supportwhat I do is work.
They don't care.
There's enough trust there thatthey don't think that I'm
saying something that I wouldn'tsay anyway just because
(36:38):
something was sent for free yeah, and that's something that you
built up over years yeah, thatguy who is a normie is like okay
, yeah, cool, but you couldtotally do this.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
But it's not just like you just start making
videos and that's it well, it isone of those.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
You call them like self-owns, because I would bet
in that guy's life there's areaswhere I'm a normie and he's you
know the I don't know what,what he's into or what he does
in his free time.
There's probably somethingwhere he gets maybe a little
special treatment, a little moreauthority, whatever you want to
call it that.
I wouldn't because I haven'tspent had the time that he has
spent building that up.
(37:14):
And that is true for everybodyand everything.
This is just one area of lifewhere things are a little
different, and so I was tryingto think, though, okay, if it,
if it, if it's not practical,it's not practical financially
to buy everything.
If you're like a product-focusedchannel and there's this weird
(37:35):
hesitation with getting stufffor free, what about not keeping
stuff?
What about stuff like sendingthings back to the companies or
using loaner programs, becausethose are kind of cool middle
grounds, right, like a companycould send me something and I
check it out, make a video.
When I'm done that, I just sendit back to them.
Or something I've done in thepast too is B&H has a loaner
(37:55):
program and I can just reach out.
I forget what they said, myprice limit was.
But they're like yeah, you know, just tell us you want to try
something.
They send it to me, I have 30days to use it and then I just
send it back and they're.
They're a middle ground ormiddle middleman sounds bad, but
they're not the manufacturer.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
And they, they, they know I'm not buying the thing,
but they just send it and that'sit.
So those are kind of cool, likesort of solutions, but even
those aren't perfect, and that'sthe thing that I feel like if
you're not a creator, you mightnot know, because it is very
helpful.
30 days really flies by, and ifyou're talking about something,
(38:34):
you know, if you're talkingabout something like a camera,
that can take a really long time.
I didn't really get the grip ofmy Sony cameras for like six
months, 30 days, and maybe if Ijust focus on that one thing all
day, every day, but if I'm thatinterested in something, I
would probably have just boughtit and not needed the loaner
program so it's like the 30 daywindow is sometimes just not
(38:56):
enough.
B&h is very good because theydon't care about what you say.
I have had other companiessimilar, like retailers offer to
send things, but what they willsay is if you don't like the
thing, send it back and checkout something else.
Like they.
Because even though they're notthe company, they still don't
want you to say, like this thingsucks, because then no one's
gonna buy it.
And so I have never loanedanything from anyone who has
(39:20):
said that bnh doesn't care.
They're just like yeah, let usknow what you want, they, they.
They understand.
Honest customer feedback andopinions are a good thing, but
still there's not always enoughtime, especially if you're
working on other things, to dealwith it in the amount of time.
Then there's also the thing oflike future comparisons.
(39:41):
Bronson and I were talkingabout this because we both have
a lot of microphones, because welike microphones Bronson from
Audio Hotline if you'relistening hi bronson and we were
talking about like how manymics we would have if we didn't
have youtube channels and wewouldn't each have one like
right, we would have many micsbecause we like it.
(40:01):
But we each definitely do havemicrophones that we wouldn't
have if we didn't have a youtubechannel, the reason being
because we keep them forcomparisons.
And that's why I even got mySM7B, which I really do like and
grew to love.
But the reason I got it wasjust because I knew anytime I
did a mic review, people willask how does it compare to the
SM7B?
So it made sense for me to havethat there.
And there are things like thatwhere it's like I don't
(40:23):
necessarily need this for me,but there's so many times we're
having this available to compareand and it makes you, uh,
create a thing that is morehelpful right to your audience.
Yeah and and stuff also getsupdates.
Like you know, like all themixers get firmware updates.
So if I, if I were to borrow aroadcaster for a month and
(40:45):
here's my opinion on it but ayear later it's gotten five
firmware updates and has allthese different features like
but now I don't, now my myexperience opinion everything's
totally out of date versus beingable to, like, stay up to date
on the thing that you'reinterested in, um, which is, I
say that coming from a place offun, like it's fun to to stay up
to date on this stuff.
(41:05):
And if I know people are goingto ask questions about it, I
like to at least try to givethem what I feel like is my most
accurate information at thetime.
So loaner programs and stuffcan be great, they're just not
the solution.
And then sending stuff back isanother one.
It would be great, I'd betotally fine.
Let me keep this as long as Ineed to and then just send it
back when I'm done.
(41:26):
Very few companies will let yousend stuff back yeah, which I
get.
It yeah, I get it.
They don't want to deal withthis.
What are they gonna?
It's like a return piece ofmerchandise.
They gotta like inventory ityeah, yeah a lot of companies
not fresh out of the box, youknow very few companies will, uh
, send you a shipping label sothey might say, like, if you
want to send it back, you can,but that's awesome when they are
(41:47):
based in another country acrossan ocean and now shipping is
going to be like 400 orsomething.
It's not practice.
So in theory I get what you'resaying.
Yeah, let me use this as longas I want and just send it back
to you.
They don't want the thing backor it's very expensive to send
back, which doesn't.
Again, it just doesn't makesense when you're just a person
(42:08):
trying to do, but I don't thinkpeople take those points into
consideration.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Of course, because they don't know which is like
you know yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
So those are kind of like my main thoughts on the
whole situation.
I wanted to point out the Instathing.
I wanted to talk about some ofthe other videos that have
popped up.
I really wanted to mentionHeather's stream, that kind of
pushed back a little bit, andthen sort of my thoughts on like
well, why even accept freestuff to begin with, because
then you don't have to deal withit if you never do that yeah um
(42:39):
.
So a couple last points.
I guess a thing that I did wantto did want to mention was, um,
this conversation isspecifically interesting to me
as someone who has talked aboutthis kind of thing and cares
about it a lot, from both aviewer and a creator standpoint,
and so we've talked about theethics statement page on my
(43:02):
website many times,no-transcript that have all
agreed to the ethics statementpage, and it was like it was a
thing that I was hesitant to dobecause I was kind of like, well
(43:23):
, you know, this is sort ofcalling things out and I was
trying to think like, why woulda brand not want to be listed
here If they agreed to dosomething with me?
Why would they not want to beon this page?
And the only reason I couldthink of would be because they
would not want to have the samedeal with other creators.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
You have now set an expectation.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Hey, this brand did this thing for Tom.
Why do they want to do adifferent thing for me?
And now you know, maybe they'rewilling to make that like, make
that exception for me, but notmake that exception for someone
else.
And my thought was well, ifthat's the case, screw that like
, yeah, exactly, I'm gonna tryto protect you.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
That's what I uh, that's what I've really
appreciated the way that you'vehandled your channel, because I
feel like you do it, so you'vedone it so differently from the
beginning and I think, like,especially when it comes to
integrity and ethics, honestly,I would go so far to say that
the way that you handle it islike completely unconventional.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
It's very weird.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Insane.
You know like people would belike.
There's literally talks atVidCon on how to make your
channel brand friendly.
You did the number one unbrandfriendly thing that you can do.
Um, but what I, what I've, whatI've seen happen since you do
these things, your viewers knowyou do these things and then
(44:52):
time passes by and it's fine isthat, in the world of content
creation, I believe thattransparency only makes
everything better, even if it'swild at first.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Like.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
I it, you know, I mean I think it's, I think it.
I don't know.
I don't know how other peoplehandle it, but from what I've
seen you do, it's like you are.
You are, by creating thisdocument, you're leaving money
on the table yes, a lot.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
You know, and so I can see why not every creator
would do that.
But if other, if other creatorswere to adopt this, you know, I
think it makes, I think ithelps creators as a whole.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Yeah, I mean, you know I, I know people have taken
and I didn't.
I'm not the one who came upwith the idea of having an
ethics statement anyway, whichI've talked about before, but I
also added that to the page tomake sure.
I got the idea from mr mobile'syoutube channel, which is like
a huge tech channel, and he hasa page on his website that goes
into excruciating detail on likehow he handles travel and hotel
(46:01):
accommodations and the reasonwhy I think it's different than
with you is because you're not amassive channel.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
You know like you're a I don't know small business
creator named tbd, normalcreator, average creator, middle
class creator, whatever youwant to call it.
Uh, you know where you to me, I, I hope it's clear that you do
not have this lavish, glamorouslifestyle where everything is
just you know.
(46:27):
You have all the disposableincome in the world to buy every
single thing that you arereviewing.
No, and even with heather'sapproach of like this is is my
business, this is my craft, andthis is why I approach it the
way that I do.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
Yeah, with two different approaches.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
And they're both fine .
And the thing that I liked whenI found the massive you know
channels because he even says inhis statement or his page I
forget what he calls it, but hesays that he doesn't even own
his channel.
It's owned by a company andhe's the one who runs the
channel.
But I really liked that.
I didn't even watch the stuff.
I heard him on a podcasttalking about it and I really
liked the transparency and Ithought there's no reason.
(47:07):
I, as I think this was, Iforget when I did the ethics
statements three or four yearsago, so it was, I don't know,
under 20,000 subscribers forsure.
It almost felt like overkillfor the time.
I was like if I could do thisfor myself, that would be cool.
And so I put mine together likethe first version of it, posted
it, and I got a lot of messagesfrom people saying I need to
(47:29):
take it down because it's goingto hurt me.
It's going to hurt brands andbrands, and the reason I wanted
to now, many years later, addspecific brands to it is because
it has turned brands awaythere's so many times.
I mean, by the time I get to thepoint where I'm even sending
that to somebody right likewe've are like they've already
(47:49):
cleared at least one hurdle inmy mind, but there's a lot of
times that I've sent that tothem and never heard anything
again yeah and that's that'swhat it is for.
Right, because when you look atthe list of brands that's there,
it's kind of amazing to havebeen able to cultivate a working
relationship.
They're quality.
It's something I'm proud of andI would hope they would be
(48:10):
proud too, but it's like it's avery select few and I feel like
it speaks to.
I feel like that speaks to theeffectiveness of doing things
this way, for me at least well.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
So, based on the brands that you've listed right,
see, this is this is how okay.
As an online content creator, Ican see how, like, obviously,
transparency is good for yourbusiness, right?
It's good for it's net good,right.
I can see how, uh, companiesare obviously a little more
(48:44):
discreet about theirtransparency and they might not
like it, but I do think it's anet good, especially for for
your I.
I guess my inkling is that thisis where it's going to end up
being, so maybe over here, it'skind of one of those things.
Like you know, two years fromnow, this is going to be the
(49:06):
normal thing, because we'verealized like it protects the
space for everyone the viewer,the creator and the business
partners.
That make the whole thing goyes, that make the whole thing
go is, and especially whenyou're alternative, alternative,
the other option is basicallyto be like hey, can you not tell
people that this is sponsored?
Like are you kidding?
(49:28):
Like why don't we just makethis win for everybody?
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Right and I think that's maybe why I've been so
interested in this is it feelslike a lot of creators and
viewers as a whole are sort oflike turning the corner to kind
of where we and I know a lot ofpeople who listen to this have
been for a while.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
And it kind of feels nice.
Okay, I know it's crazy, butmaybe it's not that crazy and
maybe it does make sense andthat's and it's hard.
I know when you're like a smallcreator and a brand approaches
you.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
I mean, it was me, that was me.
I got sent the $600 cool wheel,which, of course, I would never
buy.
Are you kidding?
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Right, when your channel was super small, I just
started getting out.
It's like a boosted boardcompetitor kind of.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
Thing.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
And it's, it's so hard, and the thing that I
didn't know how to navigate,that.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
I had no one to go to , I had no idea what the heck to
do.
But it's like you feelsuccessful because it's like oh,
look at this, like that's a lot, that's a high price product,
you know.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Yeah, and going back to you know, in the case of a
company like Insta saying don'tdisclose that something is
sponsored, obviously, like yousaid, they're risking your
channel's trust, your viewerstrust, like they're not looking
out in your best interest as acreator, exactly, and f that
like it takes one.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
In the world of content creation, where everyone
will pick apart your apology,couch video frame by frame, like
transparency and trust, is likethe most.
That's, that's the thing thatkeeps the whole thing going.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
Yes, and for somebody to ask you to compromise, that
is insane to me yes, and whenyou're a small creator, it can
be tricky, because sometimes abrand will say um, whether it's
a sponsored thing or they'resending you a product or
whatever.
They'll say like oh, we justlove your channel and what you
do.
Um, you know, we just want yourchannel and what you do.
You know, we just want, we justlove what you do.
Do this.
And then they send a thing andthen, if you agree, like, well,
(51:22):
I'll send you stuff for revision, all stuff.
They'll suddenly start tochange it a lot and you could
potentially find yourself going.
I thought you liked what I do.
Why are you changing everythingthat I do?
And the reason is they don'tactually care about you.
They care about your audienceand you are just.
They want their product.
You know whatever in yourstorefront on this street, they
(51:44):
want to be the window displayand they just whatever they need
to do to get in there.
They don't care about you.
That means the decisions they'remaking are not in your best
interest, and that even goes forthere can be times where you
feel like you have a goodworking relationship, but a
company like if they have aproduct release, if they have an
update, if they have somethingand they really want you to talk
about this thing or mayberelease a video by this date or
(52:04):
whatever that might not be inyour channel's best interest and
they're not trying to activelyharm your channel.
They only know what's in theirbest interest.
And their best interest is wespent, you know, three years
working on this product.
It's finally released.
Please tell people about it.
But you're like, well, I've gotthis whole plan of videos and
I'm in this type of contentright now.
So maybe that they're not, evenin the best case scenario,
(52:27):
they're not always aware of orable to look out for your best
interests, and you have to dothat for yourself and that's a
very hard thing to learn andnavigate as you grow as a
content creator.
Yeah, I don't know who wouldwanna as a content creator.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
Yeah, I don't know who would want to be a content
creator so hard.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
I mean it is the best .
Speaker 2 (52:46):
It is the best.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
These are the things, though, little things that pop
up that maybe, when you clickcreate channel, you didn't think
about.
Right, exactly, and so that'swhy I wanted to talk about that
today.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Yeah, and thank you for helping me figure that out.
It's a good conversation Iabout that today.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
Yeah, and thank you for helping me figure that out.
It's a good conversation, Ihave fun, and if you had fun or
you had thoughts you didn't havefun and you had thoughts you
can always send an email to Tomat enthusiasmprojectcom or go to
hi, my name is Tom dot com andclick the little voice memo
thing and then you'll have amessage in time for next week
week's episode, which is theseason 12 finale.
Cool, if people want to checkout more of what heather does,
(53:22):
where should they go?
heather just create on youtubeall right, uh, thank you for
listening.
I appreciate it very much.
I hope you have a safe, happy,healthy, fun rest of your week
and we will see you next timeyou.
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