July 7, 2025 • 13 mins
In today’s episode, I dig into one of the most confusing and underused rules in AD&D... dual classing. It’s only for humans. It takes serious stats. And it forces you to give up everything from your old class... for a while. So why do it? I break down how it works, where it gets messy, and when it might actually be worth the risk. If you’ve ever thought about turning your fighter into a wizard or your cleric into a thief, this is the episode for you.
#ADnD #DualClassing #OldSchoolRPG
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:17):
Hey, welcome back to the podcastEvil Dungeon Master Universe
Podcast. I am your host, Evil Dungeon
Master. Vince, Hopefully you're doing
well. It's Monday after a holiday
weekend. Hopefully you had a wonderful
holiday 4th of July. If you in the same States and
you're listening to this, happy 4th.
Anyway, ask the DM at the evil dm.com is my e-mail address and
(00:39):
the evil dm.com is my website. Patreon.com/the Evil DM is where
you can support me. So today we're going to talk a
little bit about dual class or the character with two classes
on page 33 of the Player's Handbook.
(01:00):
So unlike multiclass characters who are of non or semi human
race, the character with two classes must only be human to
attain the second class. The character must switch his or
her profession at some point. Thereafter, no progression in
the original class is possible. In order to switch from one
(01:21):
class to another, the character must have the ability score of
15 or more in the principal attribute ability of the
original class and a 17 or 18 inthe principal attributes or
attribute of the class. Change to note that nearly any
(01:43):
combination of class is thus possible, So cleric and a
fighter, Cleric and a paladin, blah blah blah.
Alignment will come in play intofactor here, because if you
heard the wrong alignment, say you're playing a neutral evil
thief. You can't obviously become a
lawful good paladin unless you're somehow switching your
(02:05):
alignment, and thus you'll take penalties for that.
So when a character apartment tosee his or her old profession
and becomes a new class, the character retains the number of
hit dice due to the character ofthe level or is a her level
class. However, all the functions of
the character are at first levelof experience for that is his or
(02:29):
her ability in the new class. Furthermore, if during the
course of the adventure the character resorts to the use of
any other capability or functions of his or her former
class, the character gains no experience for the adventure.
I've always thought that was a little harsh, that if you
(02:50):
accidentally do something of your former class, you lose all
experience for the adventure. I've never done that whatsoever.
I mean, if you're learning a newclass, sure.
OK so I'll step back here for a moment now when I've always DM
(03:11):
with dual classing and my logic behind dual classing is sure you
can learn a new class. You can pursue a new career in
quotes. A new class doesn't mean you
automatically forget what you knew in your previous class,
(03:32):
just like as if you know in reallife.
For example, if you were a computer tech and decided to go
to electrician school to become an electrician, obviously you're
going to be studying hard. You're going to progress in the
electrician class as best as youcan using those abilities on a
(03:54):
daily basis. It does not mean that some point
throughout the day you may do something on a computer or do
something that you were, you know, IT wise or computer
programming wise. Because you know those skills
and abilities. I don't think that you should
suffer losing all your experience for the day or the
(04:18):
game session just because you used an ability from your former
class. I understand the balance issue
that Gary's trying to say here. By doing this well you're dual
classing into something else so you should be restricted from
using the other things so you don't have an advantage over
(04:40):
other players. I don't look at it that way and
that's one of the things I don'tagree with.
Again I can house rule however Iwant but I'm not going to
penalize a character because he did 1 little thing.
Now with that said, if said player is constantly using his
old abilities and not new doing his new abilities as in leaning
(05:03):
hard on the old abilities because those are better or for
the time being works for the situation as the adventure, then
yeah, probably I would penalize them a little bit of experience
for but not lose all the experience.
So there's something there to think about.
Tell me what you do with your characters in your game as Adm.
(05:24):
So continuing along here, if a character wants to use the old
abilities without penalizing them, according to the book, you
need to obtain a level of experience that exceeds the
former class. And then you going forward you
would still have your new class abilities, but you'll get to mix
(05:46):
and match them as you please. So the example they give here is
a character with the ability scores of 15 strings, 17
Intelligence, 12 Wisdom, 10 Dexterity, 16 Constitution, and
seven Charisma is begins as a fighter.
After retaining 6th level, the player switches the character to
a magic user. This allows the character to
(06:07):
retain 610 sided hit dice, but for all the respects, he or she
must be a first level magic user, wearing no armor, carrying
those weapons usable by his or her new class only, and using
spells against components. When seventh level experience is
gained, however, the character gets a four sided hit dice for
(06:32):
additional hit points he or she can sustain at the new level.
Furthermore, the character can now carry but not wear armor and
weapons not normally used by themagic user, resorting and resort
to their use if need arises and not be penalized in respect to
experience as a magic user, for he or she has already surpassed
the new class disciplines of theformer.
(06:56):
Thus no harm accrues to his her experience as a magic user.
Note that does not allow spells while using armor Clad or Ellen
Fighter magic user is able to doso.
Looking at this, once you exceed, you can basically use
the things you were able to use.Obviously casting magical spells
(07:17):
in armor is not going to work, but it does allow you to wear
the armor in my opinion. I know it says you were able to
carry but not wear the armor. In my opinion, I would say you'd
be able to wear the armor, but you just not being able to cast
spells or be it a very, very heavy penalty for it, I would
(07:39):
think because you'd have you nowknow the you know how to wear
armor as a fighter magic user. Obviously they they don't want
you to wear armor because of thefact that you have to move
around a lot and they're not, they don't know how to use armor
so it becomes bulky and awkward,but you know how to use it.
If you're going for something that I use logic, a lot of these
(08:00):
things, most players don't dual class that are humans.
They just kind of just stick with whatever they have and just
move along. I've seen a few people do dual
classing in my time as a dungeonmaster.
I kind of like dual classing better than multi classing
because multi class is a pain inthe ass to figure out half the
(08:20):
time. I'll have to do another separate
episode on multiclassing and talk about that a little bit.
But the problem is the way it's written, a lot of people stay
away from it because they don't want to lose their experience.
And granted, I don't make peoplelose their experience because of
1 little this or, you know, a little off here or there, but
(08:44):
have you guys out there? What do you exactly do you do in
that situation? Do you follow the book by the
letter here or do you let maybe like an instance or two slide
because you know, the situation warrants it And common sense, I
don't know, it is weird to be a sixth level character and then
have to start at level 1 all over again.
(09:05):
And the only benefit you really have is the fact that you have a
hell of a lot of hit points, especially if you're going at
higher level back down to 1. Now, if your second level when
going back to first, not much ofa difference though if you were
a fighter, you have reasonable amount of say 20 hit points or
(09:26):
so to start as a magic user as opposed to having, you know, 4.
So I guess there's that that bonus there.
I mean, there's some good combinations that you can do.
Like a fighter goes through a cleric, he has a calling.
A thief becomes an illusionist because he thinks that that
(09:48):
might enhance his thieving abilities in the future, using
illusionist spells to help get him through jobs.
A Ranger sees a calling, you become a magic user.
When you hit the right level youbecome pretty badass.
As a Ranger you have access to these high level spells.
(10:09):
If you went high enough level for a Ranger then adding a
arcane spells on top of it. I mean why not?
Now the thing you have to worry about is so 6 levels.
Say you go for six levels and then you jump into a new one and
(10:32):
now you have to worry about following the path of the new
class. Now if you follow the path of
the new class and you start gaining levels in that and not
using your prior for six levels,for example, do you think that
the person needs a refresher forthe former or the, I guess yes,
(10:53):
the former class? Or do they automatically just
keep it in their minds? Now, I know me personally
looking at this from a differentpoint of view.
Me personally, if I haven't donesomething in a very long time, I
may forget certain things. So do I need to have a
refresher? Yeah, I'll look back into
certain things and refresh how to do them all over again.
(11:16):
Obviously just a quick refresher.
And I'm like, Oh yeah, that's right.
So if you're a magic user for six levels, and then you decide
that you want to become a fighter, for example, do you
lose the some of the abilities of a magic user or how their
methods work because you now just spent 6 or 7 levels or 7
(11:40):
would be levels fighting with a sword and armor on your back and
not picking up a book, not writing, not reading, not
studying. You have to get back into that
mindset. You may be would you make a
player character have to go seektheir masters out from the past
(12:00):
and maybe get a refresher course?
I mean, it'd be a great adventure hook.
I have to go find my master. I need to get a refresher course
in learning magic again so I cancast that while I swing my sword
in battle. I don't know.
So there's just some ideas of putting your head for dual
classing and how easy it really is.
(12:23):
But again, there's a lot at stake there, especially if you,
according to the rules botch anddecide to use your original
class abilities when you shouldn't.
Just never like that rule. Tell me what you think of the
comments below about this dual classing and how it works in
your game. You allow it, you not allow it.
I'm curious to see what you think.
(12:46):
Comment on Spotify and or on YouTube when you hear this.
With that said, I'm going to head out.
Keep original, keep it old school.
Goodnight. God bless everyone.
Hey, welcome back to the podcastEvil Dungeon Master Universe
Podcast. I am your host, Evil Dungeon
Master. Vince, Hopefully you're doing
well. It's Monday after a holiday
weekend. Hopefully you had a wonderful
holiday 4th of July. If you in the same States and
you're listening to this, happy 4th.
Anyway, ask the DM at the evil dm.com is my e-mail address and
(00:39):
the evil dm.com is my website. Patreon.com/the Evil DM is where
you can support me. So today we're going to talk a
little bit about dual class or the character with two classes
on page 33 of the Player's Handbook.
(01:00):
So unlike multiclass characters who are of non or semi human
race, the character with two classes must only be human to
attain the second class. The character must switch his or
her profession at some point. Thereafter, no progression in
the original class is possible. In order to switch from one
(01:21):
class to another, the character must have the ability score of
15 or more in the principal attribute ability of the
original class and a 17 or 18 inthe principal attributes or
attribute of the class. Change to note that nearly any
(01:43):
combination of class is thus possible, So cleric and a
fighter, Cleric and a paladin, blah blah blah.
Alignment will come in play intofactor here, because if you
heard the wrong alignment, say you're playing a neutral evil
thief. You can't obviously become a
lawful good paladin unless you're somehow switching your
(02:05):
alignment, and thus you'll take penalties for that.
So when a character apartment tosee his or her old profession
and becomes a new class, the character retains the number of
hit dice due to the character ofthe level or is a her level
class. However, all the functions of
the character are at first levelof experience for that is his or
(02:29):
her ability in the new class. Furthermore, if during the
course of the adventure the character resorts to the use of
any other capability or functions of his or her former
class, the character gains no experience for the adventure.
I've always thought that was a little harsh, that if you
(02:50):
accidentally do something of your former class, you lose all
experience for the adventure. I've never done that whatsoever.
I mean, if you're learning a newclass, sure.
OK so I'll step back here for a moment now when I've always DM
(03:11):
with dual classing and my logic behind dual classing is sure you
can learn a new class. You can pursue a new career in
quotes. A new class doesn't mean you
automatically forget what you knew in your previous class,
(03:32):
just like as if you know in reallife.
For example, if you were a computer tech and decided to go
to electrician school to become an electrician, obviously you're
going to be studying hard. You're going to progress in the
electrician class as best as youcan using those abilities on a
(03:54):
daily basis. It does not mean that some point
throughout the day you may do something on a computer or do
something that you were, you know, IT wise or computer
programming wise. Because you know those skills
and abilities. I don't think that you should
suffer losing all your experience for the day or the
(04:18):
game session just because you used an ability from your former
class. I understand the balance issue
that Gary's trying to say here. By doing this well you're dual
classing into something else so you should be restricted from
using the other things so you don't have an advantage over
(04:40):
other players. I don't look at it that way and
that's one of the things I don'tagree with.
Again I can house rule however Iwant but I'm not going to
penalize a character because he did 1 little thing.
Now with that said, if said player is constantly using his
old abilities and not new doing his new abilities as in leaning
(05:03):
hard on the old abilities because those are better or for
the time being works for the situation as the adventure, then
yeah, probably I would penalize them a little bit of experience
for but not lose all the experience.
So there's something there to think about.
Tell me what you do with your characters in your game as Adm.
(05:24):
So continuing along here, if a character wants to use the old
abilities without penalizing them, according to the book, you
need to obtain a level of experience that exceeds the
former class. And then you going forward you
would still have your new class abilities, but you'll get to mix
(05:46):
and match them as you please. So the example they give here is
a character with the ability scores of 15 strings, 17
Intelligence, 12 Wisdom, 10 Dexterity, 16 Constitution, and
seven Charisma is begins as a fighter.
After retaining 6th level, the player switches the character to
a magic user. This allows the character to
(06:07):
retain 610 sided hit dice, but for all the respects, he or she
must be a first level magic user, wearing no armor, carrying
those weapons usable by his or her new class only, and using
spells against components. When seventh level experience is
gained, however, the character gets a four sided hit dice for
(06:32):
additional hit points he or she can sustain at the new level.
Furthermore, the character can now carry but not wear armor and
weapons not normally used by themagic user, resorting and resort
to their use if need arises and not be penalized in respect to
experience as a magic user, for he or she has already surpassed
the new class disciplines of theformer.
(06:56):
Thus no harm accrues to his her experience as a magic user.
Note that does not allow spells while using armor Clad or Ellen
Fighter magic user is able to doso.
Looking at this, once you exceed, you can basically use
the things you were able to use.Obviously casting magical spells
(07:17):
in armor is not going to work, but it does allow you to wear
the armor in my opinion. I know it says you were able to
carry but not wear the armor. In my opinion, I would say you'd
be able to wear the armor, but you just not being able to cast
spells or be it a very, very heavy penalty for it, I would
(07:39):
think because you'd have you nowknow the you know how to wear
armor as a fighter magic user. Obviously they they don't want
you to wear armor because of thefact that you have to move
around a lot and they're not, they don't know how to use armor
so it becomes bulky and awkward,but you know how to use it.
If you're going for something that I use logic, a lot of these
(08:00):
things, most players don't dual class that are humans.
They just kind of just stick with whatever they have and just
move along. I've seen a few people do dual
classing in my time as a dungeonmaster.
I kind of like dual classing better than multi classing
because multi class is a pain inthe ass to figure out half the
(08:20):
time. I'll have to do another separate
episode on multiclassing and talk about that a little bit.
But the problem is the way it's written, a lot of people stay
away from it because they don't want to lose their experience.
And granted, I don't make peoplelose their experience because of
1 little this or, you know, a little off here or there, but
(08:44):
have you guys out there? What do you exactly do you do in
that situation? Do you follow the book by the
letter here or do you let maybe like an instance or two slide
because you know, the situation warrants it And common sense, I
don't know, it is weird to be a sixth level character and then
have to start at level 1 all over again.
(09:05):
And the only benefit you really have is the fact that you have a
hell of a lot of hit points, especially if you're going at
higher level back down to 1. Now, if your second level when
going back to first, not much ofa difference though if you were
a fighter, you have reasonable amount of say 20 hit points or
(09:26):
so to start as a magic user as opposed to having, you know, 4.
So I guess there's that that bonus there.
I mean, there's some good combinations that you can do.
Like a fighter goes through a cleric, he has a calling.
A thief becomes an illusionist because he thinks that that
(09:48):
might enhance his thieving abilities in the future, using
illusionist spells to help get him through jobs.
A Ranger sees a calling, you become a magic user.
When you hit the right level youbecome pretty badass.
As a Ranger you have access to these high level spells.
(10:09):
If you went high enough level for a Ranger then adding a
arcane spells on top of it. I mean why not?
Now the thing you have to worry about is so 6 levels.
Say you go for six levels and then you jump into a new one and
(10:32):
now you have to worry about following the path of the new
class. Now if you follow the path of
the new class and you start gaining levels in that and not
using your prior for six levels,for example, do you think that
the person needs a refresher forthe former or the, I guess yes,
(10:53):
the former class? Or do they automatically just
keep it in their minds? Now, I know me personally
looking at this from a differentpoint of view.
Me personally, if I haven't donesomething in a very long time, I
may forget certain things. So do I need to have a
refresher? Yeah, I'll look back into
certain things and refresh how to do them all over again.
(11:16):
Obviously just a quick refresher.
And I'm like, Oh yeah, that's right.
So if you're a magic user for six levels, and then you decide
that you want to become a fighter, for example, do you
lose the some of the abilities of a magic user or how their
methods work because you now just spent 6 or 7 levels or 7
(11:40):
would be levels fighting with a sword and armor on your back and
not picking up a book, not writing, not reading, not
studying. You have to get back into that
mindset. You may be would you make a
player character have to go seektheir masters out from the past
(12:00):
and maybe get a refresher course?
I mean, it'd be a great adventure hook.
I have to go find my master. I need to get a refresher course
in learning magic again so I cancast that while I swing my sword
in battle. I don't know.
So there's just some ideas of putting your head for dual
classing and how easy it really is.
(12:23):
But again, there's a lot at stake there, especially if you,
according to the rules botch anddecide to use your original
class abilities when you shouldn't.
Just never like that rule. Tell me what you think of the
comments below about this dual classing and how it works in
your game. You allow it, you not allow it.
I'm curious to see what you think.
(12:46):
Comment on Spotify and or on YouTube when you hear this.
With that said, I'm going to head out.
Keep original, keep it old school.
Goodnight. God bless everyone.
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