September 26, 2023 • 34 mins
Screenwriter, producer, and author Julian David Stone joins the podcast to discuss his new novel, IT'S ALIVE, and the fascinating story about the last-minute casting of Frankenstein.
The story involves Bela Lugosi, who was at the height of his popularity having just come off his hit DRACULA (1931), and Boris Karloff, a relatively unknown journeyman actor. And pulling the strings is young 23-year-old Junior Laemmle, head of production at Universal Pictures and son of studio founder Carl Laemmle. Along the way we meet director James Whale, discuss the involvement of Lon Chaney, and explore the backdrop of 1930s Hollywood. It's a fascinating look into the real-life events behind one of the most enduring films and most important developments in the evolution of the Universal Monsters.
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Purchase FRANKENSTEIN 4K on Amazon
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hello and welcome to the extras, where we take you
behind the scenes of yourfavorite TV shows, movies and
animation and their release ondigital DVD, blu-ray and 4k or
your favorite streaming site.
I'm Tim Lager host.
Well, as regular listeners ofthe podcast know, I enjoy having
writers on the show, so I'mexcited today to have Julian
Stone joining us.
Julian has written screenplaysfor Disney, paramount, sony and
(00:31):
MGM.
He's written the full-lengthplay the Elvis Test and he's
produced short-formdocumentaries on Frank Sinatra
for Warner Brothers.
He's the author of severalbooks, including his most recent
book it's Alive, which is anovelization of the three days
leading up to the start ofproduction on the 1931 monster
classic Frankenstein.
(00:52):
Hi, julian, it's great to haveyou on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Hi, how you doing Great to be here.
Thanks so much for having me on.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Well, we met at a book fair and I already had the
book because I had bought it atDark Delicacies there at Burbank
, but you signed it for me.
That was fun to meet you inperson and that's when I think
we said, hey, let's do thispodcast closer to obviously,
halloween October Great time ofthe year to do that.
And then I've been noticingover the last few months you've
(01:23):
been doing some presentationsand everything about the story
that's included in the book.
So I'm looking forward togetting into that discussion
with you.
But as I was going through yourbio I noticed you did a project
or a play, I guess, on Elvis.
You did the short documentarieson Frank Sinatra.
So what's the background orinterest in music that led you
(01:46):
to those?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Sure, that's a great question, boy.
That goes back kind of to thebeginning when I was first sort
of getting interested in thefilm business.
I was concurrently, like a lotof teenagers, obsessed with rock
and roll and I realized veryquickly that once I picked up a
guitar my rock and roll careerended about five minutes later
when I realized I couldn'treally play.
(02:08):
But since I loved film andphotography, I started
photographing rock and rollconcerts and that just led to a
whole other life that I had as ateenager in my early 20s when I
used to photograph rock androll concerts.
In fact I have a book out alsoof the adventures that I had
back then called no CamerasAllowed my career as an outlaw
rock and roll photographer.
(02:29):
So I've concurrently had thislife in the world of music, but
it was related because it was asa photographer and also as a
filmmaker.
So it's always been a verystrong passion of mine and I was
thrilled to have those otherprojects come along related to
music and then for the Sinatrapieces that you did for Warner
Brothers, were those used aslike extras in one of their home
(02:51):
entertainment releases.
That's exactly what they were.
There were two different piecesthat I did.
The first one appeared on aFrank Sinatra Christmas release
it was called Silent Night andthey found an old vocal track of
Frank singing Silent Night andthey extracted his vocal.
So they got together as manyliving members of Frank
(03:12):
Sinatra's original band torecord this new accompaniment to
go with this vocal track thatthey had extracted.
And they did this twice, bothwith the Silent Night session,
which was released on aChristmas album, and a few years
later on another greatest hitsalbum called Body and Soul.
And again the same thing.
They got as many of the bandmembers together and I
(03:33):
documented the session and Ialso interviewed all of them
about what it was like workingwith Sinatra, touring with them,
and they had amazing storiesbecause these guys had been with
Sinatra for years and years.
And I also interviewed membersof the family, tina and Frank,
junior and Nancy.
So it was just a great projectall around.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Well, we talked a lot about the Warner Archive
releases on this podcast andthey've had a number of Elvis
releases lately, which you know.
The movies you can love morehate them, but the music in them
is always a big thing for thefans, and so another one's
coming out, so it's kind of fun.
I found it kind of interestingto see that on your bios.
(04:14):
So, but obviously you haveanother interest which is horror
and that's the.
That's the premise or thebackstory for this book and I
really enjoyed reading the book.
It's a very easy read, you know.
It's a page turner in thatsense, and I really enjoyed the
setup where you basically beginat the weekend before production
(04:35):
is to begin on Frankenstein.
But tell us a little bit.
Let's go back.
Tell us a little bit about whatkind of got you thinking that
you wanted to do this bookproject and then how you started
to kind of put it together.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Sure.
So I grew up like a lot of kidsa fan of the horror films.
When I was a lot younger, inthe early 70s, I was kind of the
original generation of monsterkids.
Then, you know, I got older andmoved into other interests and
I rediscovered the films manyyears later as an adult and I
saw them as completely differentthings, far more complex and
interesting.
And at this point I was workingin the film business.
(05:09):
You sort of went through mycredits and I was working as a
screenwriter and a filmmaker.
So I was got interested in whatwent on behind the scenes in the
making of the horror, of thehorror films.
And as I started to read aboutthem I eventually landed on the
character of Carl Lemley Jr, orjunior Lemley, who was at the
age of 21, running UniversalStudios, and he was the person
(05:31):
who personally chose to make theoriginal five, the classic
cornerstone of the UniversalMonster Cycle Dracula,
frankenstein, the Mummy, theInvisible man and Bride of
Frankenstein.
And I couldn't get my head pastthe fact that there was a 21
year old running a film studio,running Universal Studios, and
(05:52):
that he had chosen to make thesefilms.
So that's when I started toalso, you know, again, I was a
writer.
At this point I said there'sgot to be a story there and I
sort of jumped in and started tolook into who junior was and
also I wanted to know why.
Why did he choose to make thesefilms?
And that's what ended up.
I landed on this moment rightbefore the making of
(06:13):
Frankenstein, because it was theperfect moment where really the
cycle launches into what wethink of it today.
He's already had a success withDracula and now they want to
follow it up with Frankenstein,and everybody thought he was
crazy to make Dracula, and noweverybody thinks he's even
crazier to do Frankensteinbecause he got lucky with
Dracula.
Frankenstein is going to be adisaster.
(06:34):
Everybody is telling him,especially his father who
started the studio, and juniordecides nope, he's going to do
it anyway.
And I just found that anamazing moment.
Plus, you have a little knownfact about Boris Karloff and
Bella Lagos see that originally,when Frankenstein was first put
together, it was going to beBella Lagos see as the monster,
not Boris Karloff.
(06:55):
And this final decision aboutwho it ended up being buy all of
the records that are out therecame down almost to the last
minute before the beginning ofshooting.
So this is the moment I choseto write about this interplay
between these three Legends carllemley jr, boris carloff and
bella go see, trying to figureout how, the how this film is
all gonna come together and goon to become the legendary film
(07:18):
that we know it as.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, I talk to authors who are film historians
and they write in a terrificbooks about the background on
directors and studio heads anddifferent things, but they're
more kind of more of a filmhistory read.
This is a total novel and it'sreally fun because you you bring
us into the world of hollywoodof that time.
(07:42):
Obviously, we've got theperspective of junior here and
it's his story, but you did afun job.
I really enjoyed Just kind ofas you jump to the different
characters.
You got the bella, what's goingthrough his mind and why he was
making his decisions, and thenboris and then the interplay
between junior and his fatherand I thought that was so
(08:04):
fascinating, is really fun and Ican see your background as a
screenwriter, of course, instorytelling.
So it's a terrific read.
I really enjoyed that and Ihighly recommend it for people
who are interested in readingthat story as a novel verses a,
you know, purely kind ofacademic take on this was you
know this was happening, thatwas happening.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
There's a lot of fun stuff in the world, some of the
the fun stuff that you enjoyedin terms of when you were
researching that, putting thattogether sure, I love doing
research and, yes, it is a workof fiction, it's historical
fiction, but I Try to stay asclose to the facts as often as
possible.
It's where I took liberties isthat, you know, there are scenes
that we don't really know whatexactly was said and I sort of
(08:47):
created them based on all of thehistorical record, to the best
of my knowledge.
I love everything about it.
What I what I really?
I again, I love doing research.
In fact, I can get kind ofcarried away with it To the
point that I have to sort of sayno, stop researching, you have
to start writing.
Research is so fun and I wantedto capture who these people
(09:08):
were at this moment and I wantedpeople.
You know, people think ofbellagosian boris carloff as
legends, which they are, but thereality is they were actors
Trying to have a career and atthe time that the story takes
place, boris carloff for lack ofa better term is a struggling
actor.
He's been in hollywood for tenyears, he's in his early forties
(09:28):
and he's been in over eightymovies.
And you know, even though hedone that many films, it was two
days one studio, two days atanother studio, maybe a week if
he was lucky.
He was a struggling actor andthe go see, at the moment of the
story, was at the highest pointhis career would ever reach.
He would have other moments ofsuccess, but he was never a
bigger star than he was rightafter dracula and it was a real
(09:51):
turning point for everybodyinvolved.
And so it was fun bringing thatto life and just showing who
carloff was as a person, that hehad to keep the perseverance
that he showed in his desire Tobe a successful actor.
You know it's it's a lot tospend ten years in hollywood and
he been acting for even a lotlonger than that trying to make
it, and I just wanted to showthat in a man go see also, you
(10:13):
know, here is a person who now,at this moment, is his success,
but what a life he had beforethen.
He been a star twice before intwo different countries, first
in his home country of hungaryand then in germany.
Then he comes to america andagain achieve stardom, and the
last two examples were even inhis home language it's really
quite a remarkable story.
(10:35):
So it was fun bringing that tolife and also just all of the
fun of hollywood.
One of my favorite scenes isthat it's again based on the
truth.
There was a legendary pokergame that samuel goldwin would
have and the studio heads wouldplay at this game and I love the
notion of that of these guyssitting down and playing.
And there were stories and Isort of reference this of
Sometimes people would lose andget in debt, so part to pay off
(10:58):
the debt, to be like, okay, youcan have barbers tam work for
one picture.
You know I just the notion thatthese guys are bargaining with
their stars with something thatwas just Two irresistible to
turn down.
And you know another thing,being a huge fan of the horror
films, I love jack pierce, themakeup artist who created for
all of these films.
(11:19):
So I wanted to go into thatmakeup room and describe what
that was like being made up byhim.
So I have a scene that takesplace there with carloff being
made up by jack pierce.
So that's really the fun of it.
You can just go wherever youwant to go and people have
responded very much the way youdid with about how well, the
story moves forward and I justwanted to keep it moving, with
(11:40):
the scene sort of jumping fromthe point of view of the three
different characters, and that'swhy people come back and call
it a page turner, which I'mreally pleased to hear that,
because that was the goal andPerhaps it comes from my
screenwriting background whereyou gotta keep it moving.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Yeah, the biggest sin of screenwriting, of course, is
to be boring.
You gotta keep it moving, keepit going and accelerating that
action.
One scene needs to build on theother and everything.
But you also take the time togo with little bit interior
monologue with each of theprinciples, so that you do you
do get that background on whythey're at this point and why
(12:15):
they're making the decisions.
You know why bell is makingthat decision.
He's finally reachedrecognition and you want me to
cover my face with all thismakeup so the people can't see
me.
I mean, that makes a ton ofsense of why he really didn't
want to do it and why, of course, boris carloff was like more
than willing, because as astruggling actor, he's not gonna
(12:35):
turn down an opportunity tobecome an a list and work on a
list.
You know type of picture.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Absolutely.
You know it.
Yeah, it was.
You know, boris was happy tohave the job and, look, oh, she
was frustrated by the fact thatyou know all he been through to
become a star and now they wantto cover his face up, and so
that's part of the legend, ofwhy he turned it down, that he
wasn't happy with that, and hereferred to the character is a
mute scarecrow and he said youknow, I'm an actor, I don't play
(13:03):
that role, so that that was abig part of it and I wanted to
bring all of that to life.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
A couple other little interesting things that popped
in my mind is that Boris, inthis portrayal of the monster,
you would think, well, we'retalking, just the industry is
coming out of silence, right.
And you do talk about how Boriswas brought to Hollywood or
first got his break because hewas a stage actor so he could
talk.
(13:29):
And that was some interestingbackground that the industry was
really looking for stage actorsas talkies began because they
knew that, okay, they know howto deliver lines and project and
do all these things that we nowneed, that we didn't need a
couple years ago.
And yet within that he's goingto portray a monster that has
very few lines and this actuallygoes back almost as almost a
(13:52):
throwback to more of a silenttype style of emoting.
But I just said that thatJeff's deposition was quite
interesting and added a lot tothe story.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, you know, that was the truth.
You know, like I said, he'd beenin Hollywood for 10 years, but
for 10 years before that he hadtraveled around in these
traveling theater companies.
He did this for years all overthe United States and Canada,
where they would go into a townand in the course of a week they
would do like seven or eightdifferent plays, like a
different play every day,sometimes two different plays in
(14:22):
the same day.
Then often on the last day theywould redo the play that had
been the most popular amongstthe audiences that had come to
see it, and then they wouldtravel over the weekend and on
to the next town.
So he had had a ton of stageexperience.
So when yeah, when the moviestarted to talk, like you said,
just a few years beforeFrankenstein was made, he was
(14:46):
very primed to be able to slideright in, as he had a lot of
experience in it.
But no, the irony is is thathis big breakthrough came in a
role where he didn't speak.
But he's so remarkable in thefilm it really just blows me
away every time I see it.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
And we're not going to do any spoilers here and we
don't want to over talk the bookitself, but I think the story,
a lot of the stuff we're talkingabout, is known, it's out there
and you've put it into aterrific read for that.
But at the end there a few ofthe things that you drop in.
I was like, ah, okay, on whatBoris did to kind of bring the
character to life.
(15:22):
And then the poker game wasterrific fun.
I really enjoyed that and I'mglad you went there Because I
mean, we know about these thingsbut you really took us into it
and the background of it.
That was a lot of fun.
So how much of that interplaybetween junior, that tension
between junior and his father,was really happening at that
(15:44):
time or that weekend?
Or how much did you condense,kind of like who's going to take
over the control of the studio?
And are we really going to gointo monster films and really
put our prestige on the line?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
That is 100% true.
Carl Lemley Sr had founded thestudio.
He put junior in charge of thestudio when he was 21.
And right away, almost from thebeginning, there was a friction
about even though Carl Sr hadput him in charge about what
junior was choosing to do.
Junior being younger and ofanother generation, he wanted to
change what Universal was doing.
(16:19):
Universal in the 20s had becomefamous for kind of more rural
fare.
They made a lot of westerns,films that didn't play in the
big cities, and junior wanted tochange that.
And so almost from the momenthe came in and this is sort of a
line that I use in mypresentation junior did what any
kid with a rich father would do.
He started spending the oldman's money and he started
(16:40):
making these big, lavishproductions that were musicals
and stuff that for the most parthis father stayed away from.
So there was already a littlebit of tension there.
And then when he turned intothe monster films, carl Sr
thought it was the worst thing.
He just said this is not thetype of material we should be
doing.
Nobody will want to see it.
But junior had a differentvision.
(17:00):
He was from a differentgeneration and he felt they
would and he persisted and,thankfully for all of us monster
kids there's some of the oldestfilms that are the most famous.
I mean, universal is building amonster land right now, 90
years after these films came out, down in Orlando, and it's a
testament to the staying power.
And his father was completelyagainst them.
(17:22):
And again, this is from mypresentation.
There's a quote that I sort ofend with, which is from Carl
Lemley Sr where he says you know, as to you know the horror
films, that was all junior, hewas the one that wanted to do it
.
We were all against it and heshowed us all, and that was only
a few films in.
They had no idea that here wewould be 90 years later, you
(17:43):
know, still talking about thesefilms.
So, yes, that that wasabsolutely true.
His father was dead set againstit.
You know, like any father withhis son, you know, is often
questions the choices that thathe makes and in the case of this
it was the family business andhe, even more so, had conflicts
with him and they, you know,they fought, like father and son
(18:03):
, but you know, typically do.
But they were very, very closeand they had a fascinating
relationship, you know, all theway through their, their lives.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yeah, and it's a fascinating time period, isn't
it?
If film history, becauseeverything was so new and people
just didn't know, and we lookback and we just take for
granted that, oh, of course, youknow why not take that risk.
But this was a huge, huge risk.
I mean, people had done somehorror in the silent areas.
(18:34):
There were some movies there,but in talkies and just the
amount of money that they spenton this was was a huge risk.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
No question.
Yes, there had been some horrorfilms, but they didn't call
them that yet.
That's another interestingthing that comes out of this,
the success of Frankenstein.
In the 20s there were creep.
They would call them mysteriesor thrillers or shockers.
They weren't called horrorfilms yet but by and large the
studios didn't go super deep inthem.
Most of the universal had alittle bit of a history with
(19:07):
Phantom of the Opera, the manwho laughs, things like that.
But this was a very differentstory, starting with Dracula.
With Dracula, it's not an act.
All of those other films whenyou started with supernatural
elements, by the end of the filmit was revealed that, oh, it
was really a person who wasbehind it, somebody who was
doing something for greed or forlust.
(19:29):
I call it, for lack of a betterterm, the Scooby-Doo reveal.
It's like, oh no, it's thisperson who has been doing it.
It's not really a Phantom, thatsort of thing.
Dracula was very different.
In Dracula it's not somebodypretending to be a vampire, it
really is a vampire.
Dracula is a vampire who canonly be killed with a stake
(19:50):
driven through his chest intohis heart.
This is pretty gruesome stuff.
None of the studios wantedanything to do with it.
Nosferatu had been made about10 years earlier, but that was
made in Europe.
The major studios thought thistype of creepy material was to
be avoided.
Even after the success ofDracula they still thought it
(20:10):
was to be avoided.
It was after Frankenstein was ahit Again.
Frankenstein had been aroundfor a long time.
Edison had made a shortone-realer of it some 20 years
before, but it doesn't.
If anybody's ever seen it, youwouldn't even recognize it
compared to what we think of asFrankenstein.
The studios wanted no part ofit, but Junior persisted.
(20:31):
After Frankenstein, everybodyjumped on board.
You can just go and look at theStarting about 32, every
studio's got some horror filmand they started calling them
horror films.
Up until then, like I said,they were mysteries, they were
shockers.
Now they've decided oh, this isgoing to be around for a while,
we're going to call them horrorfilms.
It begins and the universalcycle goes on for another 25
(20:54):
years.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Yeah, it's a fascinating story and really a
fun one to dig into in readingyour book.
When you do the presentations,you talk about Lemley more so
than the film itself.
How is that different to yourpresentations from the book?
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Sure, that's a great question.
The book takes place, like yousaid, the days leading up to the
beginning of production ofFrankenstein and follows the
story concurrently between CarlLemley Jr, boris Karloff and
Bella Ligosi.
They all have equal footingmoving through that period
leading up to the beginning ofproduction.
My presentation is entirely onCarl Lemley Jr.
(21:35):
It's basically the man behindthe monsters, where you've got
all these famous characters andall these famous people around
it and nobody's heard of the guywho's most responsible for it.
I tell the whole story of CarlLemley Jr, starting from the
beginning to the end of his lifeand even the period after
universal.
The concentration is definitelyon the horror films.
(21:56):
It's a fascinating story evenbefore you get to where I
compressed it into those threedays.
I tell all the backstory of allthe different things that went
on over the months leading up tothe beginning of Frankenstein.
We're going to cast this person, know that person.
We can't get them.
It's really a great story.
Then Jr's whole life is veryfascinating, as is Carl Lemley
(22:17):
Sr's.
The presentation tells thewhole story of Carl Lemley Jr,
with an emphasis on the monsters.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
One thing we didn't really talk about I want to go
back to you for a second was inthe book.
You do talk about Lon Chaneyand some of his impact.
Previously to this.
There was a little bit therewith Lon Chaney and I guess in
some of his films that informedBella Ligosi's performance in
Dragla and then Boris inFrankenstein.
(22:47):
I think you even referencedthat they had both met him.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yeah, that was another neat thing.
When I did the research I waslike, oh wow, what a great way
to work him into the story,because he's kind of the
godfather of this type of.
He's like the first sort ofhorror star.
Originally, jr Lemley wantedLon Chaney to play Dracula and
they were in negotiations and bysome accounts even had made a
(23:11):
deal and then, unfortunately,Chaney was very sick and he
passed away before they startedshooting the film.
That's when Jr then startedsearching and eventually ended
up on Ligosi.
Ligosi had done it on Broadwayand even though he originated
the role and had been a big hit,he wasn't Jr's first choice.
Eventually he was hired, butLigosi would complain years
(23:33):
later that he was given the roleafter every actor in town was
auditioned and their pets.
Thankfully he eventually gotthere, but Chaney absolutely.
He had a history with Universal.
He made some of his earliestfilms at Universal before
leaving, and part of the storyof bringing him back for Dracula
(23:55):
besides Jr thinking he wasperfect for the role was a nice
story about his return to thestudio, the studio where his
career had really taken off.
And yes, that is true that bothLegosi and Karloff knew him a
little bit, particularly Karloff.
Karloff used to tell a storyabout leaving a studio from one
(24:15):
of his little short jobs one dayand Cheney spotting him and
offering him a ride across townor wherever he was going,
because Cheney was a star andnaturally had a nice car.
Karloff was most likely lookingto go take the bus, and during
this ride they were talkingabout the business, and Cheney
gave him some advice that he'dalways talk about, which was you
(24:35):
need to find something as aperformer that will make you
stand out, and so that may haveinformed some of the things that
Karloff did later, becauseCheney clearly found his place
with the man of a thousand facesand all of the stuff that he
did.
Legosi didn't know him as well,but had some encounters with
him, and I believe there's somebelief that he was a background
(24:59):
early in his time in Hollywoodor in the film business in I
think it's the what's that?
Film, the Clown who Laughs, orone of the mid-twenties Cheney
films.
There's some belief that Legosiwas in that film in an
uncredited role, and that'sperhaps where they had some
interactions too.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Yeah, it's so fascinating.
I guess the one other person Iwant to talk about, before we
kind of wrap this up, was thedirector, james Whale.
I mean, I don't think we shouldfinish without talking about
him, because he's so importantat the story as well.
And you weave him in andthere's an interesting kind of
back and forth on who is goingto direct this and then you know
(25:38):
he wants one guy and thenjuniors jumping around making
changing his mind, I should say,or seemingly changing his mind,
but there's also exteriorforces of other people changing
their minds.
But in researching this, whatdid you kind of learn or what
was interesting about JamesWhale?
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Well, james Whale, to me, is one of two people that
is really responsible for whythe films are still so popular
all these years later.
You know you made reference tothere being other horror films
that were made in the 20s.
You know Nosferatu, cabinet ofDr Calgary.
Well, those are amazing filmsbut they're very dry.
The reason that the universalfilms to me have continued to be
(26:19):
so successful and then wererediscovered in the 50s and the
60s by a new audience ofchildren is the humor that is in
them, that they're dark andthey're fascinating, but they
also have a very light touch tothem and that's what James Whale
brought to it.
He had this very interestingEnglish sense of humor and it's
all over those original films,because of the five that you
(26:41):
know I mentioned, that sort ofare the cornerstone of the cycle
.
He directed three of them andhis sensibility carried on
beyond.
You know just the films that hedid.
So that's what he brought to it.
He was a soldier in World War Iand eventually entered the
theater in England and made hisname, directing on stage and
(27:02):
then also doing a filmadaptation of the play that made
him a famous, called Journey'sEnd.
That's what brought him toHollywood.
People saw this film adaptationof Journey's End.
Everybody wanted his services.
Junior won the battle for himand he started working for
Universal.
So that's really what hebrought to it.
And there was anotherinteresting thing about him and
(27:24):
I also talk about this which Isort of foreshadowed with some
of the appeal, becauseeverything with Junior was about
wanting to be about the future,not the past.
James Whale as a filmmaker hadno experience in the silent era.
He was entirely a filmmaker ofthe sound era, so he had none of
the sort of trappings of thatprevious way that films have
(27:45):
been made and I believe that'ssomething else that he brought
to it.
He did some interesting thingswith sound in Frankenstein.
That was again from somebodywho had only grown up in that
world.
And you also mentioned that theoriginal writer and director of
Frankenstein was Robert Flore,who was a French director who
was starting to make his name,and he gave the initial pitch to
(28:06):
Junior about how to do the film.
But when Junior got James Whaleon the payroll at Universal and
loved the work that he wasdoing for Universal, james Whale
made a film a previous film forhim called Waterloo Bridge.
He told him you can have anyfilm you want here that we have
in development, and James Whalesaid I want to do Frankenstein.
(28:27):
So unfortunately, as it oftenworks out in Hollywood, that was
the end of Robert Flore and incame James Whale.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah, though, though Flore and and Sydney Fox, who is
a character in your story aswell, and Working on another
film together, I guess the onewith with Bella, right.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Exactly so that they all sort of get I hate to use
the term consolation prize, butall of them were.
You know we're supposed to be,with the exception of Sydney Fox
.
But Legosi and Flore weresupposed to do Frankenstein.
They end up doing murders inthe room, or which Flore directs
Bella, legosi Stars in andSydney Fox, who with who did
(29:08):
have a relationship with juniorLemley and she's the love
interest throughout my novel.
She also ends up on murders inthe room, or again.
Obviously, all you know All ofthat is based on fact.
That is a film that they, theyall did together.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Now, where can people find the book?
I mean, I'll have links to iton the podcast show notes, but
do you also have a website andother places that people can
follow you?
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
You can check out everythingI'm doing at julian
davidstonecom.
I'm also busy on on Facebookand you know all the social
medias.
You can get the book at Amazon.
You can get autographed copiesdirectly from me off of the
website and it's at.
It's at bookstores too.
Those aren't signed copies butyou can Although you can go to
(29:52):
Larry Edmonds.
Actually, if everybody knowsthat place in Hollywood, they
have some signed copies of mine.
Yeah, so those you know that'sthe place to get at Amazon,
julian davidstonecom, and youcan also see some of the stuff
about some of the other projectsthat we talked about.
They're also there.
I have some fun little shortfilms I made around some of my
adventures in the rock and rollYears when I, when I was doing
(30:13):
all of that are also includedthere and I'm doing these
presentations.
I don't know when this, thispodcast, is gonna air, but I'm
gonna be at monster Paloozadoing an encore presentation of
my junior Lemley thepresentation.
I did it there six months agoand it went very, very well, so
they asked me to come back anddo it again and I'm gonna do the
presentation again and then atthe end I'm gonna do a panel
(30:36):
discussion with I don't know ifyou know, I don't know if you
know Antonia Carlotta.
She's a, the grand niece ofCarl Lemley Jr.
She's gonna join me for a Q&Aat the end of that to talk about
her family's legacy of horror.
And and you know, just as aquick side note, that's been one
of the most gratifying thingssince the book came out was so
many members of the Lemleyfamily Reached out to me and
(30:57):
they were so happy about thebook because many of them knew
junior late in life he lived allthe way almost into the 80s.
So they were, you know, theywere very happy to see him
getting this attention, you know, which I feel he deserves, and
they felt he would have lovedthe book and and all of that and
just as a quick side note Also,almost none of them really knew
(31:18):
the family's history withUniversal, which was so
fascinating because I talk aboutthis in the Presentation in the
30s they lose the studio.
So if you think about it, all ofthese, it's a, it's a very
large family and all of thesepeople later who didn't know
them at the time, who wereyounger, they said that they
never talked about it because toCarl Lemley Sr and junior it
(31:40):
was a business they lost.
So you know, we look at it now.
My god, if I had anything to dowith the founding of Universal,
that's all I talk about it.
They said he never talked aboutit because it was kind of a
sore spot.
So you know, I feel that alsohas contributed to why he hasn't
gotten the acclaim that hedeserved for really being the
person who got all of thisstarted.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yeah, well, I'll have links to your website and
people can kind of see whatyou're up to, and if you're in
the LA area, you have theseevents coming up in In September
and October.
It seems to have really hit anerve with people and they're
really enjoying hearing aboutthis history Maybe, like you
said, a little forgotten historythat you're able to bring a
(32:21):
spotlight back on.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah, no, I the presentation.
I try to make it really fun andif you see the notes you know
there's a little bits of it thatpeople have put up.
You know I try to make itentertaining because you know
that's why we like those filmsthey're fun, they're
entertaining and junior had anexciting life.
I mean, this is a 21 year oldin the 20s, late, early 30s,
running a movie studio.
How can that not be a fun story?
(32:43):
Try to tell it in that context.
You know, and I've been verypleased, and you know I Want to
do as many of the presentationsas I can.
It's really fun for me and andfor the audience.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Well, julian, this has been a fun conversation and,
like I said, I highly recommendthe book for people who kind of
enjoy a fictionalized versionof these stories and insights,
and it's a quick read.
It's a fun read and Perfect forthis time of the year as we
enter the horror season ofOctober.
So thanks for coming on thepodcast.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Oh, thank you.
It's been great chatting withyou.
Just just a blast.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
But that was a really fun conversation with writer
Julian stone.
As mentioned, I'll have linksto his book and his website in
the podcast show notes so youcan order it there and Get more
information on his appearancesthat are coming up.
If you're on social media, besure and follow the show on
Facebook, twitter or InstagramTo continue the conversation and
(33:46):
to be a part of our community.
And check out our YouTubechannel, as we are posting more
videos there all the time,including this conversation with
Julian stone, and if you're afan of Warner Brothers, you're
invited to a new Facebook groupcalled the Warner archive and
Warner Brothers Catalog group.
To look for that link on theFacebook page or in the podcast
show notes.
Until next time you've beenlistening to Tim Lard, stay
(34:09):
slightly obsessed.
Hello and welcome to the extras, where we take you
behind the scenes of yourfavorite TV shows, movies and
animation and their release ondigital DVD, blu-ray and 4k or
your favorite streaming site.
I'm Tim Lager host.
Well, as regular listeners ofthe podcast know, I enjoy having
writers on the show, so I'mexcited today to have Julian
Stone joining us.
Julian has written screenplaysfor Disney, paramount, sony and
(00:31):
MGM.
He's written the full-lengthplay the Elvis Test and he's
produced short-formdocumentaries on Frank Sinatra
for Warner Brothers.
He's the author of severalbooks, including his most recent
book it's Alive, which is anovelization of the three days
leading up to the start ofproduction on the 1931 monster
classic Frankenstein.
(00:52):
Hi, julian, it's great to haveyou on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Hi, how you doing Great to be here.
Thanks so much for having me on.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Well, we met at a book fair and I already had the
book because I had bought it atDark Delicacies there at Burbank
, but you signed it for me.
That was fun to meet you inperson and that's when I think
we said, hey, let's do thispodcast closer to obviously,
halloween October Great time ofthe year to do that.
And then I've been noticingover the last few months you've
(01:23):
been doing some presentationsand everything about the story
that's included in the book.
So I'm looking forward togetting into that discussion
with you.
But as I was going through yourbio I noticed you did a project
or a play, I guess, on Elvis.
You did the short documentarieson Frank Sinatra.
So what's the background orinterest in music that led you
(01:46):
to those?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Sure, that's a great question, boy.
That goes back kind of to thebeginning when I was first sort
of getting interested in thefilm business.
I was concurrently, like a lotof teenagers, obsessed with rock
and roll and I realized veryquickly that once I picked up a
guitar my rock and roll careerended about five minutes later
when I realized I couldn'treally play.
(02:08):
But since I loved film andphotography, I started
photographing rock and rollconcerts and that just led to a
whole other life that I had as ateenager in my early 20s when I
used to photograph rock androll concerts.
In fact I have a book out alsoof the adventures that I had
back then called no CamerasAllowed my career as an outlaw
rock and roll photographer.
(02:29):
So I've concurrently had thislife in the world of music, but
it was related because it was asa photographer and also as a
filmmaker.
So it's always been a verystrong passion of mine and I was
thrilled to have those otherprojects come along related to
music and then for the Sinatrapieces that you did for Warner
Brothers, were those used aslike extras in one of their home
(02:51):
entertainment releases.
That's exactly what they were.
There were two different piecesthat I did.
The first one appeared on aFrank Sinatra Christmas release
it was called Silent Night andthey found an old vocal track of
Frank singing Silent Night andthey extracted his vocal.
So they got together as manyliving members of Frank
(03:12):
Sinatra's original band torecord this new accompaniment to
go with this vocal track thatthey had extracted.
And they did this twice, bothwith the Silent Night session,
which was released on aChristmas album, and a few years
later on another greatest hitsalbum called Body and Soul.
And again the same thing.
They got as many of the bandmembers together and I
(03:33):
documented the session and Ialso interviewed all of them
about what it was like workingwith Sinatra, touring with them,
and they had amazing storiesbecause these guys had been with
Sinatra for years and years.
And I also interviewed membersof the family, tina and Frank,
junior and Nancy.
So it was just a great projectall around.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Well, we talked a lot about the Warner Archive
releases on this podcast andthey've had a number of Elvis
releases lately, which you know.
The movies you can love morehate them, but the music in them
is always a big thing for thefans, and so another one's
coming out, so it's kind of fun.
I found it kind of interestingto see that on your bios.
(04:14):
So, but obviously you haveanother interest which is horror
and that's the.
That's the premise or thebackstory for this book and I
really enjoyed reading the book.
It's a very easy read, you know.
It's a page turner in thatsense, and I really enjoyed the
setup where you basically beginat the weekend before production
(04:35):
is to begin on Frankenstein.
But tell us a little bit.
Let's go back.
Tell us a little bit about whatkind of got you thinking that
you wanted to do this bookproject and then how you started
to kind of put it together.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Sure.
So I grew up like a lot of kidsa fan of the horror films.
When I was a lot younger, inthe early 70s, I was kind of the
original generation of monsterkids.
Then, you know, I got older andmoved into other interests and
I rediscovered the films manyyears later as an adult and I
saw them as completely differentthings, far more complex and
interesting.
And at this point I was workingin the film business.
(05:09):
You sort of went through mycredits and I was working as a
screenwriter and a filmmaker.
So I was got interested in whatwent on behind the scenes in the
making of the horror, of thehorror films.
And as I started to read aboutthem I eventually landed on the
character of Carl Lemley Jr, orjunior Lemley, who was at the
age of 21, running UniversalStudios, and he was the person
(05:31):
who personally chose to make theoriginal five, the classic
cornerstone of the UniversalMonster Cycle Dracula,
frankenstein, the Mummy, theInvisible man and Bride of
Frankenstein.
And I couldn't get my head pastthe fact that there was a 21
year old running a film studio,running Universal Studios, and
(05:52):
that he had chosen to make thesefilms.
So that's when I started toalso, you know, again, I was a
writer.
At this point I said there'sgot to be a story there and I
sort of jumped in and started tolook into who junior was and
also I wanted to know why.
Why did he choose to make thesefilms?
And that's what ended up.
I landed on this moment rightbefore the making of
(06:13):
Frankenstein, because it was theperfect moment where really the
cycle launches into what wethink of it today.
He's already had a success withDracula and now they want to
follow it up with Frankenstein,and everybody thought he was
crazy to make Dracula, and noweverybody thinks he's even
crazier to do Frankensteinbecause he got lucky with
Dracula.
Frankenstein is going to be adisaster.
(06:34):
Everybody is telling him,especially his father who
started the studio, and juniordecides nope, he's going to do
it anyway.
And I just found that anamazing moment.
Plus, you have a little knownfact about Boris Karloff and
Bella Lagos see that originally,when Frankenstein was first put
together, it was going to beBella Lagos see as the monster,
not Boris Karloff.
(06:55):
And this final decision aboutwho it ended up being buy all of
the records that are out therecame down almost to the last
minute before the beginning ofshooting.
So this is the moment I choseto write about this interplay
between these three Legends carllemley jr, boris carloff and
bella go see, trying to figureout how, the how this film is
all gonna come together and goon to become the legendary film
(07:18):
that we know it as.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, I talk to authors who are film historians
and they write in a terrificbooks about the background on
directors and studio heads anddifferent things, but they're
more kind of more of a filmhistory read.
This is a total novel and it'sreally fun because you you bring
us into the world of hollywoodof that time.
(07:42):
Obviously, we've got theperspective of junior here and
it's his story, but you did afun job.
I really enjoyed Just kind ofas you jump to the different
characters.
You got the bella, what's goingthrough his mind and why he was
making his decisions, and thenboris and then the interplay
between junior and his fatherand I thought that was so
(08:04):
fascinating, is really fun and Ican see your background as a
screenwriter, of course, instorytelling.
So it's a terrific read.
I really enjoyed that and Ihighly recommend it for people
who are interested in readingthat story as a novel verses a,
you know, purely kind ofacademic take on this was you
know this was happening, thatwas happening.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
There's a lot of fun stuff in the world, some of the
the fun stuff that you enjoyedin terms of when you were
researching that, putting thattogether sure, I love doing
research and, yes, it is a workof fiction, it's historical
fiction, but I Try to stay asclose to the facts as often as
possible.
It's where I took liberties isthat, you know, there are scenes
that we don't really know whatexactly was said and I sort of
(08:47):
created them based on all of thehistorical record, to the best
of my knowledge.
I love everything about it.
What I what I really?
I again, I love doing research.
In fact, I can get kind ofcarried away with it To the
point that I have to sort of sayno, stop researching, you have
to start writing.
Research is so fun and I wantedto capture who these people
(09:08):
were at this moment and I wantedpeople.
You know, people think ofbellagosian boris carloff as
legends, which they are, but thereality is they were actors
Trying to have a career and atthe time that the story takes
place, boris carloff for lack ofa better term is a struggling
actor.
He's been in hollywood for tenyears, he's in his early forties
(09:28):
and he's been in over eightymovies.
And you know, even though hedone that many films, it was two
days one studio, two days atanother studio, maybe a week if
he was lucky.
He was a struggling actor andthe go see, at the moment of the
story, was at the highest pointhis career would ever reach.
He would have other moments ofsuccess, but he was never a
bigger star than he was rightafter dracula and it was a real
(09:51):
turning point for everybodyinvolved.
And so it was fun bringing thatto life and just showing who
carloff was as a person, that hehad to keep the perseverance
that he showed in his desire Tobe a successful actor.
You know it's it's a lot tospend ten years in hollywood and
he been acting for even a lotlonger than that trying to make
it, and I just wanted to showthat in a man go see also, you
(10:13):
know, here is a person who now,at this moment, is his success,
but what a life he had beforethen.
He been a star twice before intwo different countries, first
in his home country of hungaryand then in germany.
Then he comes to america andagain achieve stardom, and the
last two examples were even inhis home language it's really
quite a remarkable story.
(10:35):
So it was fun bringing that tolife and also just all of the
fun of hollywood.
One of my favorite scenes isthat it's again based on the
truth.
There was a legendary pokergame that samuel goldwin would
have and the studio heads wouldplay at this game and I love the
notion of that of these guyssitting down and playing.
And there were stories and Isort of reference this of
Sometimes people would lose andget in debt, so part to pay off
(10:58):
the debt, to be like, okay, youcan have barbers tam work for
one picture.
You know I just the notion thatthese guys are bargaining with
their stars with something thatwas just Two irresistible to
turn down.
And you know another thing,being a huge fan of the horror
films, I love jack pierce, themakeup artist who created for
all of these films.
(11:19):
So I wanted to go into thatmakeup room and describe what
that was like being made up byhim.
So I have a scene that takesplace there with carloff being
made up by jack pierce.
So that's really the fun of it.
You can just go wherever youwant to go and people have
responded very much the way youdid with about how well, the
story moves forward and I justwanted to keep it moving, with
(11:40):
the scene sort of jumping fromthe point of view of the three
different characters, and that'swhy people come back and call
it a page turner, which I'mreally pleased to hear that,
because that was the goal andPerhaps it comes from my
screenwriting background whereyou gotta keep it moving.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Yeah, the biggest sin of screenwriting, of course, is
to be boring.
You gotta keep it moving, keepit going and accelerating that
action.
One scene needs to build on theother and everything.
But you also take the time togo with little bit interior
monologue with each of theprinciples, so that you do you
do get that background on whythey're at this point and why
(12:15):
they're making the decisions.
You know why bell is makingthat decision.
He's finally reachedrecognition and you want me to
cover my face with all thismakeup so the people can't see
me.
I mean, that makes a ton ofsense of why he really didn't
want to do it and why, of course, boris carloff was like more
than willing, because as astruggling actor, he's not gonna
(12:35):
turn down an opportunity tobecome an a list and work on a
list.
You know type of picture.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Absolutely.
You know it.
Yeah, it was.
You know, boris was happy tohave the job and, look, oh, she
was frustrated by the fact thatyou know all he been through to
become a star and now they wantto cover his face up, and so
that's part of the legend, ofwhy he turned it down, that he
wasn't happy with that, and hereferred to the character is a
mute scarecrow and he said youknow, I'm an actor, I don't play
(13:03):
that role, so that that was abig part of it and I wanted to
bring all of that to life.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
A couple other little interesting things that popped
in my mind is that Boris, inthis portrayal of the monster,
you would think, well, we'retalking, just the industry is
coming out of silence, right.
And you do talk about how Boriswas brought to Hollywood or
first got his break because hewas a stage actor so he could
talk.
(13:29):
And that was some interestingbackground that the industry was
really looking for stage actorsas talkies began because they
knew that, okay, they know howto deliver lines and project and
do all these things that we nowneed, that we didn't need a
couple years ago.
And yet within that he's goingto portray a monster that has
very few lines and this actuallygoes back almost as almost a
(13:52):
throwback to more of a silenttype style of emoting.
But I just said that thatJeff's deposition was quite
interesting and added a lot tothe story.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, you know, that was the truth.
You know, like I said, he'd beenin Hollywood for 10 years, but
for 10 years before that he hadtraveled around in these
traveling theater companies.
He did this for years all overthe United States and Canada,
where they would go into a townand in the course of a week they
would do like seven or eightdifferent plays, like a
different play every day,sometimes two different plays in
(14:22):
the same day.
Then often on the last day theywould redo the play that had
been the most popular amongstthe audiences that had come to
see it, and then they wouldtravel over the weekend and on
to the next town.
So he had had a ton of stageexperience.
So when yeah, when the moviestarted to talk, like you said,
just a few years beforeFrankenstein was made, he was
(14:46):
very primed to be able to slideright in, as he had a lot of
experience in it.
But no, the irony is is thathis big breakthrough came in a
role where he didn't speak.
But he's so remarkable in thefilm it really just blows me
away every time I see it.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
And we're not going to do any spoilers here and we
don't want to over talk the bookitself, but I think the story,
a lot of the stuff we're talkingabout, is known, it's out there
and you've put it into aterrific read for that.
But at the end there a few ofthe things that you drop in.
I was like, ah, okay, on whatBoris did to kind of bring the
character to life.
(15:22):
And then the poker game wasterrific fun.
I really enjoyed that and I'mglad you went there Because I
mean, we know about these thingsbut you really took us into it
and the background of it.
That was a lot of fun.
So how much of that interplaybetween junior, that tension
between junior and his father,was really happening at that
(15:44):
time or that weekend?
Or how much did you condense,kind of like who's going to take
over the control of the studio?
And are we really going to gointo monster films and really
put our prestige on the line?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
That is 100% true.
Carl Lemley Sr had founded thestudio.
He put junior in charge of thestudio when he was 21.
And right away, almost from thebeginning, there was a friction
about even though Carl Sr hadput him in charge about what
junior was choosing to do.
Junior being younger and ofanother generation, he wanted to
change what Universal was doing.
(16:19):
Universal in the 20s had becomefamous for kind of more rural
fare.
They made a lot of westerns,films that didn't play in the
big cities, and junior wanted tochange that.
And so almost from the momenthe came in and this is sort of a
line that I use in mypresentation junior did what any
kid with a rich father would do.
He started spending the oldman's money and he started
(16:40):
making these big, lavishproductions that were musicals
and stuff that for the most parthis father stayed away from.
So there was already a littlebit of tension there.
And then when he turned intothe monster films, carl Sr
thought it was the worst thing.
He just said this is not thetype of material we should be
doing.
Nobody will want to see it.
But junior had a differentvision.
(17:00):
He was from a differentgeneration and he felt they
would and he persisted and,thankfully for all of us monster
kids there's some of the oldestfilms that are the most famous.
I mean, universal is building amonster land right now, 90
years after these films came out, down in Orlando, and it's a
testament to the staying power.
And his father was completelyagainst them.
(17:22):
And again, this is from mypresentation.
There's a quote that I sort ofend with, which is from Carl
Lemley Sr where he says you know, as to you know the horror
films, that was all junior, hewas the one that wanted to do it
.
We were all against it and heshowed us all, and that was only
a few films in.
They had no idea that here wewould be 90 years later, you
(17:43):
know, still talking about thesefilms.
So, yes, that that wasabsolutely true.
His father was dead set againstit.
You know, like any father withhis son, you know, is often
questions the choices that thathe makes and in the case of this
it was the family business andhe, even more so, had conflicts
with him and they, you know,they fought, like father and son
(18:03):
, but you know, typically do.
But they were very, very closeand they had a fascinating
relationship, you know, all theway through their, their lives.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yeah, and it's a fascinating time period, isn't
it?
If film history, becauseeverything was so new and people
just didn't know, and we lookback and we just take for
granted that, oh, of course, youknow why not take that risk.
But this was a huge, huge risk.
I mean, people had done somehorror in the silent areas.
(18:34):
There were some movies there,but in talkies and just the
amount of money that they spenton this was was a huge risk.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
No question.
Yes, there had been some horrorfilms, but they didn't call
them that yet.
That's another interestingthing that comes out of this,
the success of Frankenstein.
In the 20s there were creep.
They would call them mysteriesor thrillers or shockers.
They weren't called horrorfilms yet but by and large the
studios didn't go super deep inthem.
Most of the universal had alittle bit of a history with
(19:07):
Phantom of the Opera, the manwho laughs, things like that.
But this was a very differentstory, starting with Dracula.
With Dracula, it's not an act.
All of those other films whenyou started with supernatural
elements, by the end of the filmit was revealed that, oh, it
was really a person who wasbehind it, somebody who was
doing something for greed or forlust.
(19:29):
I call it, for lack of a betterterm, the Scooby-Doo reveal.
It's like, oh no, it's thisperson who has been doing it.
It's not really a Phantom, thatsort of thing.
Dracula was very different.
In Dracula it's not somebodypretending to be a vampire, it
really is a vampire.
Dracula is a vampire who canonly be killed with a stake
(19:50):
driven through his chest intohis heart.
This is pretty gruesome stuff.
None of the studios wantedanything to do with it.
Nosferatu had been made about10 years earlier, but that was
made in Europe.
The major studios thought thistype of creepy material was to
be avoided.
Even after the success ofDracula they still thought it
(20:10):
was to be avoided.
It was after Frankenstein was ahit Again.
Frankenstein had been aroundfor a long time.
Edison had made a shortone-realer of it some 20 years
before, but it doesn't.
If anybody's ever seen it, youwouldn't even recognize it
compared to what we think of asFrankenstein.
The studios wanted no part ofit, but Junior persisted.
(20:31):
After Frankenstein, everybodyjumped on board.
You can just go and look at theStarting about 32, every
studio's got some horror filmand they started calling them
horror films.
Up until then, like I said,they were mysteries, they were
shockers.
Now they've decided oh, this isgoing to be around for a while,
we're going to call them horrorfilms.
It begins and the universalcycle goes on for another 25
(20:54):
years.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Yeah, it's a fascinating story and really a
fun one to dig into in readingyour book.
When you do the presentations,you talk about Lemley more so
than the film itself.
How is that different to yourpresentations from the book?
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Sure, that's a great question.
The book takes place, like yousaid, the days leading up to the
beginning of production ofFrankenstein and follows the
story concurrently between CarlLemley Jr, boris Karloff and
Bella Ligosi.
They all have equal footingmoving through that period
leading up to the beginning ofproduction.
My presentation is entirely onCarl Lemley Jr.
(21:35):
It's basically the man behindthe monsters, where you've got
all these famous characters andall these famous people around
it and nobody's heard of the guywho's most responsible for it.
I tell the whole story of CarlLemley Jr, starting from the
beginning to the end of his lifeand even the period after
universal.
The concentration is definitelyon the horror films.
(21:56):
It's a fascinating story evenbefore you get to where I
compressed it into those threedays.
I tell all the backstory of allthe different things that went
on over the months leading up tothe beginning of Frankenstein.
We're going to cast this person, know that person.
We can't get them.
It's really a great story.
Then Jr's whole life is veryfascinating, as is Carl Lemley
(22:17):
Sr's.
The presentation tells thewhole story of Carl Lemley Jr,
with an emphasis on the monsters.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
One thing we didn't really talk about I want to go
back to you for a second was inthe book.
You do talk about Lon Chaneyand some of his impact.
Previously to this.
There was a little bit therewith Lon Chaney and I guess in
some of his films that informedBella Ligosi's performance in
Dragla and then Boris inFrankenstein.
(22:47):
I think you even referencedthat they had both met him.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yeah, that was another neat thing.
When I did the research I waslike, oh wow, what a great way
to work him into the story,because he's kind of the
godfather of this type of.
He's like the first sort ofhorror star.
Originally, jr Lemley wantedLon Chaney to play Dracula and
they were in negotiations and bysome accounts even had made a
(23:11):
deal and then, unfortunately,Chaney was very sick and he
passed away before they startedshooting the film.
That's when Jr then startedsearching and eventually ended
up on Ligosi.
Ligosi had done it on Broadwayand even though he originated
the role and had been a big hit,he wasn't Jr's first choice.
Eventually he was hired, butLigosi would complain years
(23:33):
later that he was given the roleafter every actor in town was
auditioned and their pets.
Thankfully he eventually gotthere, but Chaney absolutely.
He had a history with Universal.
He made some of his earliestfilms at Universal before
leaving, and part of the storyof bringing him back for Dracula
(23:55):
besides Jr thinking he wasperfect for the role was a nice
story about his return to thestudio, the studio where his
career had really taken off.
And yes, that is true that bothLegosi and Karloff knew him a
little bit, particularly Karloff.
Karloff used to tell a storyabout leaving a studio from one
(24:15):
of his little short jobs one dayand Cheney spotting him and
offering him a ride across townor wherever he was going,
because Cheney was a star andnaturally had a nice car.
Karloff was most likely lookingto go take the bus, and during
this ride they were talkingabout the business, and Cheney
gave him some advice that he'dalways talk about, which was you
(24:35):
need to find something as aperformer that will make you
stand out, and so that may haveinformed some of the things that
Karloff did later, becauseCheney clearly found his place
with the man of a thousand facesand all of the stuff that he
did.
Legosi didn't know him as well,but had some encounters with
him, and I believe there's somebelief that he was a background
(24:59):
early in his time in Hollywoodor in the film business in I
think it's the what's that?
Film, the Clown who Laughs, orone of the mid-twenties Cheney
films.
There's some belief that Legosiwas in that film in an
uncredited role, and that'sperhaps where they had some
interactions too.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Yeah, it's so fascinating.
I guess the one other person Iwant to talk about, before we
kind of wrap this up, was thedirector, james Whale.
I mean, I don't think we shouldfinish without talking about
him, because he's so importantat the story as well.
And you weave him in andthere's an interesting kind of
back and forth on who is goingto direct this and then you know
(25:38):
he wants one guy and thenjuniors jumping around making
changing his mind, I should say,or seemingly changing his mind,
but there's also exteriorforces of other people changing
their minds.
But in researching this, whatdid you kind of learn or what
was interesting about JamesWhale?
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Well, james Whale, to me, is one of two people that
is really responsible for whythe films are still so popular
all these years later.
You know you made reference tothere being other horror films
that were made in the 20s.
You know Nosferatu, cabinet ofDr Calgary.
Well, those are amazing filmsbut they're very dry.
The reason that the universalfilms to me have continued to be
(26:19):
so successful and then wererediscovered in the 50s and the
60s by a new audience ofchildren is the humor that is in
them, that they're dark andthey're fascinating, but they
also have a very light touch tothem and that's what James Whale
brought to it.
He had this very interestingEnglish sense of humor and it's
all over those original films,because of the five that you
(26:41):
know I mentioned, that sort ofare the cornerstone of the cycle
.
He directed three of them andhis sensibility carried on
beyond.
You know just the films that hedid.
So that's what he brought to it.
He was a soldier in World War Iand eventually entered the
theater in England and made hisname, directing on stage and
(27:02):
then also doing a filmadaptation of the play that made
him a famous, called Journey'sEnd.
That's what brought him toHollywood.
People saw this film adaptationof Journey's End.
Everybody wanted his services.
Junior won the battle for himand he started working for
Universal.
So that's really what hebrought to it.
And there was anotherinteresting thing about him and
(27:24):
I also talk about this which Isort of foreshadowed with some
of the appeal, becauseeverything with Junior was about
wanting to be about the future,not the past.
James Whale as a filmmaker hadno experience in the silent era.
He was entirely a filmmaker ofthe sound era, so he had none of
the sort of trappings of thatprevious way that films have
(27:45):
been made and I believe that'ssomething else that he brought
to it.
He did some interesting thingswith sound in Frankenstein.
That was again from somebodywho had only grown up in that
world.
And you also mentioned that theoriginal writer and director of
Frankenstein was Robert Flore,who was a French director who
was starting to make his name,and he gave the initial pitch to
(28:06):
Junior about how to do the film.
But when Junior got James Whaleon the payroll at Universal and
loved the work that he wasdoing for Universal, james Whale
made a film a previous film forhim called Waterloo Bridge.
He told him you can have anyfilm you want here that we have
in development, and James Whalesaid I want to do Frankenstein.
(28:27):
So unfortunately, as it oftenworks out in Hollywood, that was
the end of Robert Flore and incame James Whale.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah, though, though Flore and and Sydney Fox, who is
a character in your story aswell, and Working on another
film together, I guess the onewith with Bella, right.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Exactly so that they all sort of get I hate to use
the term consolation prize, butall of them were.
You know we're supposed to be,with the exception of Sydney Fox
.
But Legosi and Flore weresupposed to do Frankenstein.
They end up doing murders inthe room, or which Flore directs
Bella, legosi Stars in andSydney Fox, who with who did
(29:08):
have a relationship with juniorLemley and she's the love
interest throughout my novel.
She also ends up on murders inthe room, or again.
Obviously, all you know All ofthat is based on fact.
That is a film that they, theyall did together.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Now, where can people find the book?
I mean, I'll have links to iton the podcast show notes, but
do you also have a website andother places that people can
follow you?
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
You can check out everythingI'm doing at julian
davidstonecom.
I'm also busy on on Facebookand you know all the social
medias.
You can get the book at Amazon.
You can get autographed copiesdirectly from me off of the
website and it's at.
It's at bookstores too.
Those aren't signed copies butyou can Although you can go to
(29:52):
Larry Edmonds.
Actually, if everybody knowsthat place in Hollywood, they
have some signed copies of mine.
Yeah, so those you know that'sthe place to get at Amazon,
julian davidstonecom, and youcan also see some of the stuff
about some of the other projectsthat we talked about.
They're also there.
I have some fun little shortfilms I made around some of my
adventures in the rock and rollYears when I, when I was doing
(30:13):
all of that are also includedthere and I'm doing these
presentations.
I don't know when this, thispodcast, is gonna air, but I'm
gonna be at monster Paloozadoing an encore presentation of
my junior Lemley thepresentation.
I did it there six months agoand it went very, very well, so
they asked me to come back anddo it again and I'm gonna do the
presentation again and then atthe end I'm gonna do a panel
(30:36):
discussion with I don't know ifyou know, I don't know if you
know Antonia Carlotta.
She's a, the grand niece ofCarl Lemley Jr.
She's gonna join me for a Q&Aat the end of that to talk about
her family's legacy of horror.
And and you know, just as aquick side note, that's been one
of the most gratifying thingssince the book came out was so
many members of the Lemleyfamily Reached out to me and
(30:57):
they were so happy about thebook because many of them knew
junior late in life he lived allthe way almost into the 80s.
So they were, you know, theywere very happy to see him
getting this attention, you know, which I feel he deserves, and
they felt he would have lovedthe book and and all of that and
just as a quick side note Also,almost none of them really knew
(31:18):
the family's history withUniversal, which was so
fascinating because I talk aboutthis in the Presentation in the
30s they lose the studio.
So if you think about it, all ofthese, it's a, it's a very
large family and all of thesepeople later who didn't know
them at the time, who wereyounger, they said that they
never talked about it because toCarl Lemley Sr and junior it
(31:40):
was a business they lost.
So you know, we look at it now.
My god, if I had anything to dowith the founding of Universal,
that's all I talk about it.
They said he never talked aboutit because it was kind of a
sore spot.
So you know, I feel that alsohas contributed to why he hasn't
gotten the acclaim that hedeserved for really being the
person who got all of thisstarted.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yeah, well, I'll have links to your website and
people can kind of see whatyou're up to, and if you're in
the LA area, you have theseevents coming up in In September
and October.
It seems to have really hit anerve with people and they're
really enjoying hearing aboutthis history Maybe, like you
said, a little forgotten historythat you're able to bring a
(32:21):
spotlight back on.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah, no, I the presentation.
I try to make it really fun andif you see the notes you know
there's a little bits of it thatpeople have put up.
You know I try to make itentertaining because you know
that's why we like those filmsthey're fun, they're
entertaining and junior had anexciting life.
I mean, this is a 21 year oldin the 20s, late, early 30s,
running a movie studio.
How can that not be a fun story?
(32:43):
Try to tell it in that context.
You know, and I've been verypleased, and you know I Want to
do as many of the presentationsas I can.
It's really fun for me and andfor the audience.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Well, julian, this has been a fun conversation and,
like I said, I highly recommendthe book for people who kind of
enjoy a fictionalized versionof these stories and insights,
and it's a quick read.
It's a fun read and Perfect forthis time of the year as we
enter the horror season ofOctober.
So thanks for coming on thepodcast.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Oh, thank you.
It's been great chatting withyou.
Just just a blast.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
But that was a really fun conversation with writer
Julian stone.
As mentioned, I'll have linksto his book and his website in
the podcast show notes so youcan order it there and Get more
information on his appearancesthat are coming up.
If you're on social media, besure and follow the show on
Facebook, twitter or InstagramTo continue the conversation and
(33:46):
to be a part of our community.
And check out our YouTubechannel, as we are posting more
videos there all the time,including this conversation with
Julian stone, and if you're afan of Warner Brothers, you're
invited to a new Facebook groupcalled the Warner archive and
Warner Brothers Catalog group.
To look for that link on theFacebook page or in the podcast
show notes.
Until next time you've beenlistening to Tim Lard, stay
(34:09):
slightly obsessed.
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