October 22, 2024 • 37 mins
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Have you ever wondered if your parenting style is more fear-driven than love-inspired? Join us as we sit down with Kyle and Sarah Wester, licensed professional counselors and parenting coaches, who have navigated the tumultuous waters of parenting and marriage, despite having different upbringings and temperaments. Kyle opens up about the initial challenges he faced and how relying on old, ineffective parenting tools eventually led to a complete transformation in their approach. They share their journey towards The Art of Raising Humans, which focuses on fostering growth and connection in both parenting and marriage.
Kyle and Sarah discuss the profound shift from fear-based control to nurturing love and understanding, allowing them to appreciate each other's strengths and build a harmonious family dynamic.
The episode celebrates imperfections, urging parents to embrace them as gateways to deeper family connections. Kyle and Sarah show how self-awareness and vulnerability can turn stressful moments into valuable learning experiences, modeling love and open communication within the family. They invite listeners to see their children as catalysts for personal growth and transformation while fostering a supportive environment for open dialogue and positive discipline.
Download their FREE parenting guide and learn how to get on the same page with your partner and parent together with compassion, resilience, and shared values.
The Thriving Family Accelerator provides an easy, 3-step process to lower stress, parent as a united team, and enjoy a true friendship with your spouse & relationship with your kids. Sign up now for this live parent coaching with proven methods for positively engaging your family and redistributing the mental load.
Give $20 to keep the mic on. We're a 501 c(3) non-profit and produce this show for parents around the globe.
Discover the secrets to building a connected + thriving family. All you'll need is a few minutes of your week—it's easy!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey, welcome back.
Parents.
Listen, if you've ever justfound yourself thinking like you
know what my spouse and I havetotally different upbringings,
completely differenttemperaments and personalities
and like I think this is goingto just destroy our marriage,
like I'm not sure how we'regoing to make this work while
we're raising little humans surehow we're going to make this
(00:27):
work while we're raising littlehumans?
Well, I want you to tune in forthe duration of this episode,
because I have a couple on ourshow today, kyle and Sarah
Wester, and they are going to besharing about their own story
and how they took what seemedvery different from their
upbringings and turned that intoan opportunity to grow closer
(00:49):
to one another.
So, without further ado,welcome to the show, kyle and
Sarah.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Hello.
Thank you, Jordan, for havingus on.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Hi, glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
So awesome.
Let me just share a little bitabout you guys with our audience
.
So, kyle, you're a licensedprofessional counselor.
So are you, sarah both of youso married, both licensed
professional counselors,parenting coaches.
Kyle, you've been an elementaryschool counselor for like seven
years and also worked withchildren then for 20 years over
(01:22):
20 years and then you guys havethree kids of your own right.
You have kids from eight to 14years old and you started this
awesome coaching and counselingbusiness called the Art of
Raising Humans 10 years ago, andthen you also host a podcast
called Art of Raising Humans.
(01:43):
These people are busy in theirhomeschooling their kids too, so
they got it going on in Tulsa,oklahoma, and so we just want to
dive into your story.
Share with us where thispassion for helping other
parents and starting thisbusiness to really coach parents
to raise awesome kids came fromin your experience.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Well, jordan, I'd say it came from just a place of
gratitude of all the people thathave spoken into our lives
along the way, some really greatexperts who have really taught
us this art of parenting,because before we met those
people it wasn't going well.
And it wasn't going well in thesense of you know, we see a lot
of couples who have theseexperiences where when they're
(02:29):
first married like we weremarried before, we had kids for
like six years and I was lovingit.
I was loving just being withSarah because she's awesome, and
many times Sarah was like youready to have kids, yet You're
like, no, no, no, not yet, notyet Cause I just love us.
And I was kind of I had thisimmature fear that maybe some
dads who are listening canrelate to.
I thought once we have kids, Iprobably won't see you near as
(02:50):
much, I won't have near as muchtime with my wife, and I'd heard
all these horror stories abouthow, you know, you just don't
get to connect anymore and just,your time is always taken and I
knew how dedicated of a mom shewas going to be.
But then, eventually, as wefinished our master's degrees
and as we're like, okay, it'stime.
Then we had kids and I assumed,because we're counselors, I
(03:12):
mean we've had whole classesjust on resolving conflict and
knowing who you are and like oh,we've worked through all our
stuff and we both were workingwith kids.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Yes so we were kind of in the kid world.
I worked at an agency, heworked in the school system by
that point, and so we were justall counseling kids, all that
stuff.
So we thought, all right, thisis, this is going to go.
Pretty well, we're set up wellfor this situation.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Yeah, this is going to be super simple.
And as we had kids once again,she was fantastic at it I was
kind of confused about how to dothe baby stuff.
I mean, I realized in allhonesty, I don't think I'd ever
held a baby, except for maybe myniece when she was born and
that's it.
So, like, sarah just seemed sogood at it and it was kind of
(03:56):
easy for me those first fewyears to kind of back out and
just be kind of like, hey, cool,you got it.
Awesome, you know.
And it was almost like, becauseI didn't want to feel
incompetent or stupid, Idefinitely was scared.
There was moments where sheleft me home alone with the baby
and said, hey, it's really easy, just feed her this bottle
while I'm at work.
Oh my gosh, those wereterrifying moments because I
(04:19):
would be holding the baby andshe wouldn't be eating and I'd
be having pictures of my babydying and then her divorcing me
and it was like this is not whatI expected having a kid to be.
So it was very difficult to seethis going well, but even then
we managed.
We were getting through allthat and doing well we're
(04:39):
counseling.
I figured it would eventuallycome to me.
I'm helping a lot of kids atthe school.
But then when the second camealong, jordan, oh man, that then
put more responsibility on myshoulders to be much more
involved with our oldest and man, our oldest, she had all the
big feelings, jordan.
She felt things big, sheexpressed it big and I was
(05:01):
starting to do what was done inmy home which was dominate those
feelings with my anger, youknow.
So I started becoming a dad whowas quick to anger, quick to
yell, quick to threatenpunishment.
You know, to take these tactics.
It's the only tools I had and Iwas going to use those and
Sarah just wasn't going to haveit.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
No.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
She's like not under my roof, we're not doing it this
way.
Yes, that's right.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
So you know, you kind of think you're on the same
page and then you have kids andthen you realize all the ways
you're not on the same page.
You know, because there were somany things that we had already
worked through, we were alreadyin agreement on, but then, man,
throwing a kid in there, youjust it really brings things to
light that you didn't even knowwere going to come up and just
(05:50):
wouldn't even land on your radaruntil you're in that moment
with this child and mypersonality versus his
personality and our backgroundsand all those things were just
colliding.
And I knew I remember thismoment when she was about two
and a half or three maybe, andjust hearing him dealing with
(06:11):
her big emotions in ways that Iwas not okay with, typically at
like three in the morning likethree in the morning, when she
woke up and wouldn't go back tosleep.
And I remember kind of beingworried because I had already
talked to him and I'd workedwith little kids for a long time
and so I was definitely I hadshifted some in my beliefs, I
was definitely very comfortableand confident in the direction I
wanted to go with beingpeaceful and emotion coaching
(06:34):
and all this stuff.
And he was not seeing it and Iremember thinking what are, what
are we going to do?
Because this isn't going to,this isn't going to work for me
and I was kind of worried.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, and at that point, jordan, I was just at a
loss, for what else are youwanting to do?
And I knew we had hadconversations along the way
where she had said listen, I'mhelping kids who've been
physically and sexually abusedat her agency and I'm teaching
them how not to use fear.
I'm teaching them that fearisn't good for those kids and if
(07:08):
our kids don't have that sametrauma, why would our kids need
that?
How is it helpful to us?
And even, to be honest with you, when you looked at scriptures
where God says perfect lovedrives out all fear, because
fear has to do with punishment.
When you look at the mostwidely said command in the
entire Bible is fear not youstart to see that fear isn't
(07:29):
something that I believe Godwants us to use.
But I just thought you have to.
You just have to use it.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
You got to scare these kids into obedience people
.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Come on, really, I was using it because I think I
was so scared because I had seena lot of couples, jordan, that
this had happened to.
Where they were in love, it wasgoing great.
Then they have kids and, likeSarah's saying, all this new
stuff bubbles to the surface,stuff that you never would have
spoken about or talked about,even though it was there.
But these beautiful littlehumans bring it to light and now
(07:59):
all of a sudden it's causing ariff in your family and at that
time even I was counseling somekids going through divorce and
the parents would say I want youto tell these kids that it's
not their fault.
And I would say I agree withyou, it's not their fault, but
it sure seems like it, and I betthey're going to see it that
way too, because it looks likeall the arguments you're having
are about them and about how youdisagree about it.
So I saw that same dancestarting to happen between us
(08:23):
and I didn't know how to changeit.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
What?
What was the turning point,what?
What kind of happened to whereyou go?
Okay, we have got to get on thesame page here, because I can
relate to what you're saying.
I mean my husband and I, andstill to this day that you know
we have.
Now we have teenagers and onemoving out, and so there's
constantly a new phase ofparenting that you haven't
experienced yet, and so it'slike how are we going to handle
this?
They're driving.
How are we going to handle this?
They're trying to make adecision about college or flight
(08:52):
school or whatever it is, andso you continually have to come
back and recalibrate as a coupleand be this united team to
figure out where you're goingnext.
So this is something we have tocontinue to do throughout our
journey in parenting.
So what was it for you?
That kind of like, okay, welike.
(09:14):
Did you come to this pointwhere you, you decided on a part
like a particular parentingstyle?
Or adopted like a theory orsomething.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
It was eventually.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
it was that, but it started Eventually kind of
created a so to speak systemthat, just like you said, new
things come up and we just keepcycling through that same system
Whenever those new things comeup.
Whenever my view and his viewkind of collide, we can use that
same thing.
But we had this moment thatsort of started all of that,
(09:44):
where I was on one side, he wason one side and a completely
different side, and we'rethinking what are we going to do
now?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, and it was really a life-changing moment
where, totally unconnected to mykids, I convinced the
elementary school to fly me toFlorida to just learn from this
lady who's good at changingschools.
Her name's Dr Becky Bailey, andDr Becky Bailey was going to
help me and these otherprofessionals learn how to look
at behavior a different way.
(10:10):
Right?
Instead of it being somethingyou demand from kids, it's
something you teach them.
And so she's really big on thebrain science from Dr Dan Siegel
and talking about what thebrain looks like when we are
afraid and what it looks likewhen we are safe and secure in
the relationships around us, andit just looks completely
different, like that's actuallywhen we're open to learning and
changing.
(10:30):
And so, to be honest with you,jordan, like I'm watching this
at the conference, thinking I'mgoing to go help all these kids
at the school, and, um, I'm, I'mjust in tears and I'm just
seeing what I'm doing to mychildren.
I'm looking at what fear doesthat?
It actually raises kids to notbe self-controlled.
It raises them to need me tocontrol them.
I'm actually like perpetuatingthe very thing I'm trying to
(10:52):
stop.
It also raises them to be verykind of selfish and
self-protective instead ofcaring and loving and giving,
because they're scared, you know.
And so, as I saw that, Iactually called Sarah.
I was in Florida, I called herup and I just told Sarah it's
going to change From now on.
I am not buying into fear beinga greater tool than love.
I'm actually going to buy intothe fact that love never fails
(11:15):
and that love is stronger thanfear.
Fear is what I use when I'mweak.
Fear isn't something I use whenI'm strong.
I'm fear isn't something I usewhen I'm strong.
I'm making myself look strong,but but I'm not actually being
strong.
And so Sarah finally had somehope that I was going to do it
differently.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
I think, yes, yes, I was.
I remember that moment when hecalled and I was standing in my
living room and actually ourkids were playing at my feet and
and it did give me a lot ofhope and and really it was just
sort of the catalyst.
It was the moment where, okay,now there's, there was this I
don't know if maybe trust is theright word, but where he, it
(11:53):
increased our trust in eachother and it created this
openness so then we could moveinto doing these other things
that helped us and that we stilldo today.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
And that that, to answer your question, jordan,
that's where I think thecatalyst Sarah's talking about
was.
All of a sudden, I saw thatSarah was for me.
Before that, I thought Sarahwas against me, that Sarah was
trying to change me.
Sarah thought there wassomething wrong with me that she
needed to change and I couldn'tsee that Sarah was actually
trying to help me do it better,like she believed in my ability
to be a better father and that'sall she was asking me to be
(12:27):
open to was that idea.
But I saw it as her judging meor criticizing me and that kind
of stuff.
So that was the catalyst to theframework.
That's kind of the foundationalthing that we do is we trust
completely that the other is forthe other.
Right, I'm for her, she's forme.
Even in those moments where itlooks like I'm against you, I
(12:48):
actually want to be for you.
I just don't know how else tosay it right now.
So it looks like I'm againstyou, but I actually I'm for you
because it benefits us and ourkids if we're for each other.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Yes, 100%.
That's why I brought you on theshow, because, listen, we can
tell our spouse.
I've read this book.
I've learned this new thing.
There's this new strategy whereyou don't do timeouts, you do
time-ins and your spouse is likethis sounds awful, like our
kids are going to be running theshow.
This is an imbalance of power.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
We are going to lose.
Yes, well, I thought it was alack of control.
I thought it was weak.
I thought it was like oh, youwant me to be you, Sarah?
Well, I'm not you, and that'sthe reason why we got married is
because you're going to be goodcop.
I'll be bad cop.
That's what we have to do.
That's how this thing works out.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yes.
So you got this training andthe light bulb comes on and
you're kind of like, whoa, I'mseeing this from a totally
different perspective.
You come back home.
What did you guys kind of startdoing behavior wise to change
the way that you were parenting,from this place of fear or
discipline and consequences tothis loving kind of positive
(14:01):
discipline technique?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Yeah, well, we first of all decided upon hey, we need
to figure out, really, what arethe strengths and weaknesses
that we bring into this thing,instead of me judging you as
like weak and soft and me asstrong and like that.
I don't actually think that'show God's created us.
So I actually think, sarah, whenI look at you, your kindness is
(14:23):
a strength, like the fact thatyou don't get mad quickly is
good, that isn't bad right, andthen Sarah was able to say you
know what I love about you, andshe was able to point out the
obviously the flip of the cointo my weaknesses, which was my
passion, and that I candefinitely be intense and that
I'm a I can lead and I can verybe very assertive, right.
(14:45):
But then Sarah was like but whenyou slip over into the fear
stuff, you turn aggressive andyou know all those kinds of
things Right.
So we had this really goodconversation that happened over
a span of several days and weeks, months of just us, like you
know, what I see in you that Ireally admire is this, and she's
like I really admire that aboutyou, and like we started seeing
it as we're coming.
(15:06):
As you know, not perfect people, it's not our goal.
We have these imperfections inus that I think God is going to
use to actually help form ourkids into healthier human beings
.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
So good.
So you didn't go for thepractical, like, okay, now that
I'm back home, we're not doingtimeouts, we're doing time-ins.
You were like, whoa, let's stepback, let's pull back.
Let's kind of look at ourtemperament, our personalities,
our strengths and weaknesses.
Let's like sit in that for awhile and let that kind of
marinate.
Or let us steep ourselves inwho we were created to be, our
(15:40):
weaknesses and our strengths andthen form an appreciation for
each other's strengths andweaknesses, accept those gifts
and then honor those and seethat as complementarity.
I love that word, because it'slike your gifts, complement each
other as one right.
Yeah, yeah, because if you staythe other way.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
You stay in this place of judgment and you're
looking for what's going wrongand you really have to shift to
this position of being able toreframe things and look at how
you can grow together and and wewe do this still now, but where
his strengths, you know, I willrely on and sort of tap him
into a situation You're like,hey, it's your turn because
(16:22):
you're really good at this, orvice versa, he him into a
situation.
You're like, hey, it's yourturn because you're really good
at this, or vice versa, he'lltap me in.
It's like, hey, you take careof this because you're really
good at that part, and so we usethat to help our family as a
whole.
And so we definitely had tostep back and we knew each
other's personality really wellinside of marriage or even
working or friendship, but tolook at each other as a parent
(16:45):
and what they're bringing to thetable.
And we can always grow.
You know, I hope I grow incertain areas and he grows in
areas too.
But this starting point of, okay, this is what we have and we're
constantly going to be workingand growing, but let's see how
we can team up together and weneeded that foundation to trust
and to go forward, and we neededto also, I'd say.
(17:06):
The next thing I'd like to jumpinto is just, we also had to
revisit where the paradigm wewere parenting from.
You know, you have theseautopilot things that happen in
your head and we needed to beaware of those Cause, like the
good cop, bad thing didn'thappen in my home.
So when he sometimes will feellike I'm saying, oh, it's your
turn to be bad cop or he'll comein as bad cop, that's, that's
(17:27):
something that's autopilot forhim, but it's not for me, but it
helped me so much to realize.
Oh, you think, when there's aconflict, I'm asking you to come
in as the big bad guy.
And you know, make the kids dowhat I'm asking.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
So that really helped me just even that one little
thing.
But there's all thoseconversations about like what
was your, what happened in thesemoments in your childhood?
Yeah, when are you kind ofacting out of?
Speaker 2 (17:54):
And we'd never had those conversations.
You know, and that's what Ihope all your listeners hear is
we really started buying into inthat, in that kind of second
step that Sarah's talking about,that our kids are tools that
God is using to transform usinto the people we've actually
prayed to become Like, withoutall their idiosyncrasies,
(18:15):
without all of their little, theways in which conflict arises
because of them, that he'sactually shaping and forming us
into better human beings becauseof that, not in spite of them,
that he's actually shaping andforming us into better human
beings because of that, not inspite of it.
So I think that was a big partof it was like, oh, we need to
start seeing these conflicts notas moments to push away from
each other, like we had beendoing, because fear would say
that Fear would say push themaway, go put them in timeout or
(18:37):
go do like fear would say thatit's like no, no, these are
times to draw closer.
So during these conflicts weagreed we want conflict to be an
opportunity for intimacy, anopportunity to understand each
other.
Jordan, I told you we were juston vacation in California this
past week and there were severaltimes where I was stressed and
(18:57):
overwhelmed and tired and I blewup at the kids and instead of
beating myself up about that,man, the car rides we had
because we were driving a lotthrough all these national parks
man, we had some of the best,deepest conversations with the
kids where I just said hey, kids, what did you think about that
moment?
What did you think about whatjust happened back there?
Here's what was going on in myhead.
(19:18):
Can you tell what was going onin yours?
And actually I made the mistakeof having the Airbnb too far
away from Yosemite, but it endedup not being a mistake, because
those car rides went by so fastand Sarah and I would get back
and be like dang.
That was like one of the bestconversations we've had.
And it was all because I wasimperfect, it was all because I
(19:40):
acted in a way I didn't want to.
But then I was able to go backand without any shame, just with
humility of just saying, man,what can we learn about
ourselves through this thing?
And so I think, going back towhen we first started, those
were conversations we were nothaving because I was afraid of
what she'd say to me, that she'dsay I don't like how you're
doing this or doing this, butonce I really be like Sarah is
(20:02):
for me, she wants this thing towork.
She's not like undermining meand wanting this all to suck for
us.
So once I believed that then Icould have daily conversations
with her where she could give me, and then she'd say what would
you suggest I could have donedifferently?
And then I could give herinsight.
It was like, oh God, this is socool that we're not exactly the
same.
It's so cool that we see thesemoments differently but we have
(20:25):
the same focus.
And, jordan, this is important.
We had to believe once againthat fear is not helpful.
Like I do not want to have thatat our home.
So anytime I bring it, if Ibring the fear, it's not helpful
.
Like, even if I quote unquotegot what I wanted or got the
outcome, it's inevitably goingto hurt us.
It doesn't help us grow intobrave, courageous, responsible,
(20:48):
caring people.
It just causes us to be afraidfor ourselves.
Yeah, yeah.
So, having that as a beliefreally helped those
conversations, you know.
So, in going back, man, therewas so much insight that Sarah
helped me see and I helped herher see in ways we were, uh,
parented that were like you know, I love this about my parents,
I love this about your parents,but I would like not to do this
(21:10):
and I and I shared.
Sarah would say the same thingback.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yeah, we were able to have these conversations where
maybe like uh, in, for example,in his family, yelling was
common and they did a lot ofyelling In my family we didn't.
But the flip side of that is wealso kind of would sweep things
under the rug maybe, or wecouldn't share certain feelings,
or you know.
So it was sort of like, okay, Ilove the peace that was in my
home, but I want to bring thistoo.
(21:35):
And he was like, okay, I lovethat we could talk, but maybe we
don't need to yell.
So we were able to come and say, okay, let's set this part
aside from my childhood, let'stake this with us.
And then the next thing waswhat do we want to add?
What are we going to bring intoour family?
And so we start having thosekinds of conversations to create
(22:00):
the home environment and the.
You know, how do we want tonurture, how do we want to
discipline, how do we want to doall these things as a family?
Yeah, so going back to that,question you asked.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
That's where we started.
Making those decisions was on.
That third step was like whichexperts do we align with this
idea?
We need to start, okay.
So once we got then, I got toconnect with Dr Laura Markham,
who wrote peaceful parent, happyKids.
I got to journey with her forsix months and Sarah was just
loving that because I'm justlike, for six months I'm meeting
with Dr and I tell you what,jordan, every time we had a
(22:32):
disagreement back then I couldget Dr Markham on the phone and
I could actually talk to her andI'd be like you know what?
Let's see what Dr Markham wouldsay.
Every time she would agree withSarah, and so I'd be like, oh,
I do have so much growth, I dohave so much growth.
But the way Markham said itbecause once again I felt like
she was for me I was like thisis interesting when Markham says
the same thing that Sarah issaying, I'm much more receptive
(22:53):
and open.
Oh, I think because I'm notscared that Markham thinks I'm a
bad husband, whereas I'm scaredthat my wife does so once again
, that's why fear doesn't helpme is I'm not receptive to the
love and the, the, the ideas mywife has Cause.
I'm afraid she's saying I'mfailing, that I'm becoming my
dad or something like that, andand and I had to like let go of
(23:13):
that.
So then I could be moreopen-handed and receptive to her
feedback that she had.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yes, so I I hear you saying you know, at the
beginning it was like I'mfearful, I don't quite know what
I'm doing in this babyparenting thing.
You know, I don't want toreally weigh in because I don't
want to look like an idiot.
It's all this fear of judgment,Right.
And then there's a paradigmshift where it's like, wait,
this woman is for me, Like weare on the same team, and if
she's for me, then the thingshe's suggesting I can take, as
(23:43):
you know, constructive feedbackon how I can make a more
peaceful home and not use fearin our parenting.
And I love the openness andjust the candor about like when
it comes from someone else it'snot.
your spouse, Like everybodywonders why is that?
Why?
Why is it so much differentwhen I've been telling you the
(24:04):
same thing for 10 years but thenJohnny down the block brings it
up and you're like that's agreat idea?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
but you're so right Kyle.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Like it's the fear thing.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yes, yeah, well, and I'll give you an example of
where this was.
This was kind of like themoment where I'm like this is
phenomenal, I love it when Iwould come home.
There's a few weeks where Iwould come home from work.
It'd be late at night.
Back then I was working twojobs and I would come home late
at night and Sarah would alreadybe home with the kids and I
would hear Abby, our youngest,who's now 14.
She was like yelling at Sarahjust in her face.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
She was in that really big emotion preschool
toddler phase and so all thefeelings were super big and
after a day of daycare and timeto get you know time for bed,
she's exhausted, she's spent,and so we'd see a lot of big
emotions.
And so I would come home, hearher yelling the first time,
which is what he saw as soon ashe walks in the door.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
As soon as I walk in, I hear that and I think this
would not happen in my home.
This is not happening to my.
So I come in there, and thenI'm embarrassed to say this,
Jordan, but I would tell Sarahjust to leave the room.
I said get out of the room,Like you, let me take it, Cause
I thought, okay, look you, yourlittle nice thing ain't working.
So now, now I've got to come in.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
All that empathy.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yeah, I got, I got, I got to come in, I got to let
Abby know that I can get biggerand stronger, stop being so loud
.
And then I remember one nightthat happened I came out to I
was so mad at Sarah.
I was so mad at Sarah for hermaking me be the bad cop, like I
didn't want to do that.
I never wanted to have thatrelation with my kids.
(25:31):
It was like, because you refuseto be tough, I've got to be the
tough one.
So I came in the living room andSarah's on the couch and we're
we, at this point, had gotteninto this routine of having
these nightly parentingconversations, of just kind of
reevaluating what's working,what isn't.
Are we staying aligned with ourvalues, about how we want love
to be stronger than fear, and soforth.
And so I say to her I said youknow, what really upsets me is
(25:54):
how you're so passive that youmake me become aggressive.
And then she looked at me andsaid that's funny, because I
feel like I have to be passivebecause I know how aggressive
you're going to be.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
It's that teeter-totter effect.
We're trying to reach thatequilibrium.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
And so then I was like, how did you turn that on
me?
Like I was totally the rightone here, you're the wrong one.
So I sat down, I calmed down aminute and just said then what
do you suggest we do?
And she said I would suggest wedo what we've been reading and
what we've been learning.
And I said what's that?
She said why don't we try beingassertive, like we don't have
to be passive, we don't have tobe aggressive, let's be
assertive.
I said what does that mean?
And she said when you come home, if you hear Abby yelling at me
(26:30):
, just come in and ask if I needyour help.
If I say no, then walk away.
And I said then what do youwant me to do?
Sit on the couch, maybe prayfor me, maybe think some
positive thoughts about me,cause she's like I'm doing my
best and I've got to learn howto do this with Abby and Abby's
got to be confident.
I can do it with her too.
(26:50):
And so, man, it was interesting,jordan, when I sat on that
couch I was expecting it alljust to blow up in Sarah's face,
but I was doing my best to tryto pray for her.
And then I heard Abby within afew minutes, crying and then
hugging her mom and then calmingdown.
And then I was like, dang, thatwas actually kind of effective.
So then the next night that Iwalked in, do you need my help?
(27:10):
She's like, no, I sit on thecouch.
I'm like, oh, I can't wait tolearn, I want to hear what
Sarah's doing.
So.
So then I was like, wow, that'sinteresting.
But then there were nights whereI came home and she was kind of
tired too and she'd say, yeah,could you help me?
And then I found I didn't comein all tough and big and strong.
Instead I was like, oh, I'mgoing to try to do that thing
Sarah was doing last time.
I'm going to like, I'mseriously going to empathize and
(27:31):
listen to, and I actually likehow this feels, rather than me
screaming at her and trying tointimidate a four-year-old
little girl, right?
And so I just like, oh, so, sothat was a big lesson on like
man, if we worked together, manwe would be so it'd be so
beautiful and so powerful.
Because because the word we usea lot in our home is we
(27:52):
co-create together we wouldco-create the family we want.
And that's probably the laststep, that, as we started to say
what do we want this to looklike?
What kind of discipline do wewant to do?
Now, let's invite the kids intothis, because it's their family
too.
I want to invite them intoco-creating the family they want
to have.
And then, when they know theyhave that kind of power, jordan,
(28:14):
it helps them feel likeanything in the family we can
grow and change, like nobody'sstuck in place.
Dad's open to my feedback, andif dad's open, then I'm going to
be open to his feedback, youknow.
And so it makes it to where thefollow-up conversations after
things go sideways.
The kids are open to them, thekids want to have those talks,
(28:35):
and so that's what happened inthe car ride from Yosemite was
some really open-handed,open-hearted moments where we
co-created a different outcometo what had just occurred that
day.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
I love it.
I'm listening and just thinkingof the difference in the culture
of your family from operatingfrom that place of fear-based
parenting to love-basedparenting, and it reminds me of
what we talk about all the timeat Families of Character is just
that.
You know, we come with all thesedifferences in personalities
(29:08):
and temperaments and upbringings, but if we can unite ourselves
around a common goal or a commontheme, a mission for our family
, where you know love neverfails and fear isn't a part of
our family, then it breaks downall that division, it breaks
down all of the differences andhelps us come together in unity,
(29:30):
right?
And so the other thing that isjust so beautiful about what
you're talking about is thisidea of really employing
humility as husband and wife,right?
Hey, can I offer you somefeedback?
Yes, I need some right now.
Great, you know, I'd love tooffer you some feedback.
(29:51):
Yes, please help me, you know.
And then demonstrating this infront of your children and
constantly being like, oh man, Idid that thing again.
I blew up back there atYosemite, you know, like what
was happening for you guys right.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
And what was so cool, jordan, as you're saying that
I'm thinking of, a moment thatreally touched me was on our
drive back from Disneyland.
I'd gotten upset at Disneylandand there was a little bit where
I was hanging back from thefamily and part of me was
hanging back because I felt likemaybe the four of them are
better off without me around,because I get mad and I lose my
cool and I act like a jerk and Idon't want that.
(30:27):
And so in telling the kids thatof what was going on in my mind
, why I was hanging back and notnecessarily always walking with
them as a family, because I waskind of dealing with that
internal stuff is my 12-year-oldson said dad, what would have
helped you in those moments,like what would have helped you?
And I said, brandon, you know,what would have helped me Is if
someone would have told me theylove me just as I am and love
(30:49):
all the parts of me myweaknesses, my strengths Because
in that moment I didn't love mejust as I am.
I wanted to be somebody else andI was kind of sick of myself.
And so it was really cool where, a couple of days later, I was
upset about something and mydaughter Abby comes over, puts
her arm around me and says dad,I love all of you.
It was so cool and I was likethat's exactly what.
(31:10):
I was so cool that sheremembered that and did it
because it was exactly.
I never had articulated that tothe kids but I thought it was
such a cool moment to articulatebecause I bet they need that
too.
And that's actually at the core.
When we're saying love neverfails, we're not talking about
like oh, you're just never mad,you're like.
To me, love is strong, it ispowerful and at the core of our
(31:32):
family is one of my favoritequotes from an author I love
named Brennan Manning, and it'sthat God loves you just as you
are and not as you should be,because none of us are as we
should be.
And that was a piece.
Sarah made that a Father's Daygift one year, got that put on a
piece of wood and we put it upin our house and I wanted the
kids to see that and kind of getthat in their heart, because
(31:53):
that's at the core of whatpeaceful parenting is, that's at
the core of what consciousdiscipline is and these other
types of approach that they'rereally grabbing a hold of this
idea that it's through acceptingyou just as you are, that love
is what empowers us to have thecourage to change and to
actually do it better.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
So good, so so good.
I'm letting this just settle infor myself as I hear you and
it's just so beautiful, one ofthe things I love about the two
of you and I'm new to yourpodcast, I'm kind of new to your
community, but I love just thevulnerability and the visuals
that you're giving us.
Like yeah, I pout sometimes Idid this myself on vacation.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
I was totally pouting .
Speaker 1 (32:40):
But just to be able to give your kids, like the
words.
Obviously you've said whatwould have helped you in this
situation, son, because he wasable to say dad, what would have
helped you in that situation?
So, knowing that, man, our kidsare sponges, they are
constantly learning from us andwe're giving them language we
(33:02):
want them to use on themselves.
So it's important that we'reusing language that will help
them in the future, right, sofor them to be able to just say
dad, what could we have donedifferent?
So that you didn't hang backand be feeling ashamed of
yourself back there.
And for you to have that likewhere you're not trying to be
tough and be like you know what.
(33:22):
Never mind, I got this and thatwas just me being a jerk, but,
like you know, being vulnerableand saying I just want you to
tell me that you love every partof me, like just even in my
failings and my mess ups andeverything, because to me that's
a huge part of love.
Is just repairing thoseruptures right?
It's just, you know, beingwilling to call yourself out and
(33:45):
go.
I am not perfect.
None of us are like, let'slaugh about it later you know
and embrace it.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Yeah Well, and even that's not the goal, it'd be a
gross goal, sarah's, my goal wasto be perfect parents.
I actually don't think that'shelpful to your kids, because
your kids actually want to knowyou're imperfect, because it
allows them to be imperfect.
So the more you're honest aboutthat, the more it frees them to
then be able to be receptiveand open to growing and changing
.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Totally, Sarah.
Did you have a thought youwanted to share?
Speaker 3 (34:15):
No, I just I love all of that.
I love, um, that we can beimperfect humans, so our
children can be imperfect humans.
And when we come around eachother, it's not to take
responsibility for the other,you know, like he still owned
his responsibility and how heacted.
But then we can have thisconversation about what's going
(34:36):
on internally for us and how wecan come around each other in
those moments.
You know, because we ask ourchildren when they're upset,
what, what would help you?
But you know I can see you'rereally mad or sad or whatever it
might be.
What can help you?
And it's not to give themwhatever they want, but it's
like how can I come alongsideyou?
How can I help you hold thisbig feeling that you're feeling?
Speaker 2 (34:59):
you?
How can I help?
Speaker 3 (34:59):
you hold this big feeling that you're feeling and
um, and to know you're not alonein it, and to just, yes, to not
be a go to your room until thatfeeling is gone or buried deep
enough.
But, it's like how can we sittogether in this Cause?
We, we are a family.
We can help each other, we canjourney together.
We're not alone, and so I lovethe power of those conversations
and the modeling as we'reimperfectly modeling it, but
(35:21):
modeling it how to do this, howto come together and and care
for each other in ourimperfections, and that's what
frees us.
It's that love that frees us togrow.
It's that love that frees us toto not live in the shame of our
imperfections.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Yeah, but well, and going back to one last thing
I'll say, jordan, about that youwere talking about how our son
had that ability to voice.
These things is something thatreally impacted me too.
That Dr Becky Bailey taughtback at that first conference
was how little kids up to aboutseven or eight they don't have a
little voice in their head.
You know that they don't havethe ability to like talk to
(35:56):
themselves in their own mindlike we do, but she says when
that comes online that thatvoice is going to sound like
ours.
And that actually that's thegift that we give our kids, is
that voice, and it's really thevoice that's in our heads as
parents.
When stuff hits the fan, thethings we say are the voices in
(36:16):
our head that typically camefrom our own parents.
So she talks about beingintentional, about the voice
you're going to give them.
And all these moments where youuse fear or intimidation or
shame, you're actually justgiving them this lifelong voice
in their head to speak to themin that way.
And that's where I was, likeman, love is so powerful,
(36:37):
because if you can actually givethem a different voice, an
encouraging one, a hopeful one,then they're not constantly
battling that voice in everysituation.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yes, so good.
I just I love that that fromzero to seven, it's like you're
kind of programming them andtheir internal dialogue.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yes, yes, it's so important and and I wonder too
um, I'm thinking out loud aboutthis, but like how the age of
reason comes online at seven,right?
So it's like they've stacked upall of these words that we've
given them and then their brainis developing to a certain point
and then it's all of a suddenlike they're online and like,
whoa, we can have conversations.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
One thing I would add to that, too, is, as believers,
I really believe too, that alot of times, people have a hard
time hearing God's voicebecause it sounds so different
than the ones they heard growingup.
Right, like him whispering tothem I love you just as you are.
It sounds like a lie and likeno, it's actually true, it's not
a lie, right, and so that thatthat to me was so important, to
us as people of faith, is Iwanted my kids, when they heard
(37:44):
God say will you follow me, thatthey'll say yeah, because your
voice sounds just like myparents.
It sounds like it's an easytransition, instead of it going.
Follow you, where where are wegoing?
Is it going to be scary?
I said they trust that thefollow me is like oh yeah,
that's what my parents like.
The way we see discipline, theroot word of that is disciple,
(38:04):
right, and we see all disciplineas something we're doing with
you, not to you.
We're hand in hand, doing thediscipline with you, because
we're wanting to beself-disciplined people.
We want to give you the abilityto be self-disciplined too, and
so, hand in hand, we'recreating how to be more
disciplined in these moments,and I just think that's
eventually going to make iteasier for them to transition
(38:25):
into following somebody elsethat's even more loving.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
So true, so so true.
I love this.
So I want to get back to likethe practical.
Okay, you and Sarah had thismoment.
You're like we need to get toknow each other and like figure
out where we came from and andappreciate each other's
strengths.
Now do you have a resource forparents to be able to have this
conversation?
(38:49):
And I just want to emphasizethat you guys did this after you
had kids and started parenting.
It wasn't like you got marriedand you went let's learn about
each other and do this courseand right, so it's never too
late.
You can have kids in highschool and go.
We need to come back to thetable and like rewind 20 years
and figure out where we camefrom.
So do you have a resource forus?
Speaker 3 (39:09):
Yeah, and and what we use.
Even what we use, I'd say,different things are going to
come up in different stages.
So even though we did it whenthey were young, we have to
revisit this all the timebecause the expectations on now
we have teenagers, so myexpectations on what that looks
like to parent a teenager, to bea teenager in a home, are going
(39:29):
to be different than his.
So it is something that we comeback around to and so we kind
of put together a littleworkbook that you can use and
questions.
We found helpful thoughts andthings that we've worked through
together that help bring lightto things so we can make
decisions and create somethingtogether going forward.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Yeah, so we'll include that, give that to you
for the show notes, and we hopewhat it does inspire some
parents to sit down and just beable to have these conversations
, these open-handed, trustingconversations about each other,
to where these conflicts cancreate more understanding and
more intimacy with them and, tobe honest, with you, it's what
their kids want, like their kids.
I was a kid who wished myparents would have done this,
(40:11):
and if someone would have comealong with this tool, it would
have been an amazing answer toprayer that my parents are
actually sitting down andbelieving that they are for each
other and that they're going towant to not just dictate things
to us but to actuallyunderstand each other and then
invite us into that process oflike co-creating this family.
That that would be amazing, sothat tool would be great.
And then also I want to anyparents who are listening this
(40:32):
too and say hey, man, I wouldreally like some coaching in
some of those areas.
They can always reach out to me, jordan, at Kyle, at
ArtofRaisingHumanscom, and theycan reach out and we can set up
like a Zoom meeting to just seeif they're a good fit for the
coaching program we do.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
I totally recommend Kyle's coaching program.
I've already referred a fewcouples from our Thriving Family
Accelerator.
We have intimate conversationsabout what's happening in our
homes and our marriages and howconnected we are or how we're on
different pages, and I'vealready sent you a couple of
people.
So highly recommend what you'redoing, kyle, because you do
have this counseling andcoaching practice where you are
(41:10):
walking with parents, getting inthe trenches with them and then
giving them some very practicaltools to kind of align
themselves as a team, as aunited parenting team, to move
forward in love with their kids.
So this is so good.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
So so good and yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
I was just going to say also, we have the podcast,
which you've mentioned, and we'dlove people to join us on
Facebook, Instagram, TikTok.
Well, what we're doing there isconstantly doing reels, that
kind of expand the conversationthat we've had on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Check them out on social media and
artofraisinghumanscom, and I'mjust going to put this out there
.
I'm going to invite you backbecause there's so much more we
can talk about.
And I really want to bookmarkthis idea of like positive
discipline and this conceptcoming from a male therapist and
(42:06):
father and married man to othermen, because I just think this
is something that's kind of beenhidden under a bushel basket,
which it's not, shouldn't beright.
And it's this light to the world, to our spouse, to our kids,
and so let's, let's just do thatin the future.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
That'd be awesome.
We'd love that.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
So good.
Well, kyle and Sarah, thank youfor being on the show.
Thank you for sharing how youknow conflict in our marriage,
conflict in our family, can beused as opportunity for intimacy
, how love never fails.
And you know, fear is just whatI use when I'm feeling weak.
(42:48):
So, embracing this idea of loveas a family and that fear has no
place here and that our beliefin God and what we were created
to do and how we are created toco-create this family and this
amazing culture of teamwork, isjust where it's all at.
So thank you for being on theshow and, guys, check out the
(43:10):
show notes for all the links toKyle and Sarah and the art of
raising humans.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
Thank you for having us.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
That was awesome, so good.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
You guys are so awesome.
Thank you for sharing You'rewelcome and and.
Hey, welcome back.
Parents.
Listen, if you've ever justfound yourself thinking like you
know what my spouse and I havetotally different upbringings,
completely differenttemperaments and personalities
and like I think this is goingto just destroy our marriage,
like I'm not sure how we'regoing to make this work while
we're raising little humans surehow we're going to make this
(00:27):
work while we're raising littlehumans?
Well, I want you to tune in forthe duration of this episode,
because I have a couple on ourshow today, kyle and Sarah
Wester, and they are going to besharing about their own story
and how they took what seemedvery different from their
upbringings and turned that intoan opportunity to grow closer
(00:49):
to one another.
So, without further ado,welcome to the show, kyle and
Sarah.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Hello.
Thank you, Jordan, for havingus on.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Hi, glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
So awesome.
Let me just share a little bitabout you guys with our audience
.
So, kyle, you're a licensedprofessional counselor.
So are you, sarah both of youso married, both licensed
professional counselors,parenting coaches.
Kyle, you've been an elementaryschool counselor for like seven
years and also worked withchildren then for 20 years over
(01:22):
20 years and then you guys havethree kids of your own right.
You have kids from eight to 14years old and you started this
awesome coaching and counselingbusiness called the Art of
Raising Humans 10 years ago, andthen you also host a podcast
called Art of Raising Humans.
(01:43):
These people are busy in theirhomeschooling their kids too, so
they got it going on in Tulsa,oklahoma, and so we just want to
dive into your story.
Share with us where thispassion for helping other
parents and starting thisbusiness to really coach parents
to raise awesome kids came fromin your experience.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Well, jordan, I'd say it came from just a place of
gratitude of all the people thathave spoken into our lives
along the way, some really greatexperts who have really taught
us this art of parenting,because before we met those
people it wasn't going well.
And it wasn't going well in thesense of you know, we see a lot
of couples who have theseexperiences where when they're
(02:29):
first married like we weremarried before, we had kids for
like six years and I was lovingit.
I was loving just being withSarah because she's awesome, and
many times Sarah was like youready to have kids, yet You're
like, no, no, no, not yet, notyet Cause I just love us.
And I was kind of I had thisimmature fear that maybe some
dads who are listening canrelate to.
I thought once we have kids, Iprobably won't see you near as
(02:50):
much, I won't have near as muchtime with my wife, and I'd heard
all these horror stories abouthow, you know, you just don't
get to connect anymore and just,your time is always taken and I
knew how dedicated of a mom shewas going to be.
But then, eventually, as wefinished our master's degrees
and as we're like, okay, it'stime.
Then we had kids and I assumed,because we're counselors, I
(03:12):
mean we've had whole classesjust on resolving conflict and
knowing who you are and like oh,we've worked through all our
stuff and we both were workingwith kids.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Yes so we were kind of in the kid world.
I worked at an agency, heworked in the school system by
that point, and so we were justall counseling kids, all that
stuff.
So we thought, all right, thisis, this is going to go.
Pretty well, we're set up wellfor this situation.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Yeah, this is going to be super simple.
And as we had kids once again,she was fantastic at it I was
kind of confused about how to dothe baby stuff.
I mean, I realized in allhonesty, I don't think I'd ever
held a baby, except for maybe myniece when she was born and
that's it.
So, like, sarah just seemed sogood at it and it was kind of
(03:56):
easy for me those first fewyears to kind of back out and
just be kind of like, hey, cool,you got it.
Awesome, you know.
And it was almost like, becauseI didn't want to feel
incompetent or stupid, Idefinitely was scared.
There was moments where sheleft me home alone with the baby
and said, hey, it's really easy, just feed her this bottle
while I'm at work.
Oh my gosh, those wereterrifying moments because I
(04:19):
would be holding the baby andshe wouldn't be eating and I'd
be having pictures of my babydying and then her divorcing me
and it was like this is not whatI expected having a kid to be.
So it was very difficult to seethis going well, but even then
we managed.
We were getting through allthat and doing well we're
(04:39):
counseling.
I figured it would eventuallycome to me.
I'm helping a lot of kids atthe school.
But then when the second camealong, jordan, oh man, that then
put more responsibility on myshoulders to be much more
involved with our oldest and man, our oldest, she had all the
big feelings, jordan.
She felt things big, sheexpressed it big and I was
(05:01):
starting to do what was done inmy home which was dominate those
feelings with my anger, youknow.
So I started becoming a dad whowas quick to anger, quick to
yell, quick to threatenpunishment.
You know, to take these tactics.
It's the only tools I had and Iwas going to use those and
Sarah just wasn't going to haveit.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
No.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
She's like not under my roof, we're not doing it this
way.
Yes, that's right.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
So you know, you kind of think you're on the same
page and then you have kids andthen you realize all the ways
you're not on the same page.
You know, because there were somany things that we had already
worked through, we were alreadyin agreement on, but then, man,
throwing a kid in there, youjust it really brings things to
light that you didn't even knowwere going to come up and just
(05:50):
wouldn't even land on your radaruntil you're in that moment
with this child and mypersonality versus his
personality and our backgroundsand all those things were just
colliding.
And I knew I remember thismoment when she was about two
and a half or three maybe, andjust hearing him dealing with
(06:11):
her big emotions in ways that Iwas not okay with, typically at
like three in the morning likethree in the morning, when she
woke up and wouldn't go back tosleep.
And I remember kind of beingworried because I had already
talked to him and I'd workedwith little kids for a long time
and so I was definitely I hadshifted some in my beliefs, I
was definitely very comfortableand confident in the direction I
wanted to go with beingpeaceful and emotion coaching
(06:34):
and all this stuff.
And he was not seeing it and Iremember thinking what are, what
are we going to do?
Because this isn't going to,this isn't going to work for me
and I was kind of worried.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, and at that point, jordan, I was just at a
loss, for what else are youwanting to do?
And I knew we had hadconversations along the way
where she had said listen, I'mhelping kids who've been
physically and sexually abusedat her agency and I'm teaching
them how not to use fear.
I'm teaching them that fearisn't good for those kids and if
(07:08):
our kids don't have that sametrauma, why would our kids need
that?
How is it helpful to us?
And even, to be honest with you, when you looked at scriptures
where God says perfect lovedrives out all fear, because
fear has to do with punishment.
When you look at the mostwidely said command in the
entire Bible is fear not youstart to see that fear isn't
(07:29):
something that I believe Godwants us to use.
But I just thought you have to.
You just have to use it.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
You got to scare these kids into obedience people
.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Come on, really, I was using it because I think I
was so scared because I had seena lot of couples, jordan, that
this had happened to.
Where they were in love, it wasgoing great.
Then they have kids and, likeSarah's saying, all this new
stuff bubbles to the surface,stuff that you never would have
spoken about or talked about,even though it was there.
But these beautiful littlehumans bring it to light and now
(07:59):
all of a sudden it's causing ariff in your family and at that
time even I was counseling somekids going through divorce and
the parents would say I want youto tell these kids that it's
not their fault.
And I would say I agree withyou, it's not their fault, but
it sure seems like it, and I betthey're going to see it that
way too, because it looks likeall the arguments you're having
are about them and about how youdisagree about it.
So I saw that same dancestarting to happen between us
(08:23):
and I didn't know how to changeit.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
What?
What was the turning point,what?
What kind of happened to whereyou go?
Okay, we have got to get on thesame page here, because I can
relate to what you're saying.
I mean my husband and I, andstill to this day that you know
we have.
Now we have teenagers and onemoving out, and so there's
constantly a new phase ofparenting that you haven't
experienced yet, and so it'slike how are we going to handle
this?
They're driving.
How are we going to handle this?
They're trying to make adecision about college or flight
(08:52):
school or whatever it is, andso you continually have to come
back and recalibrate as a coupleand be this united team to
figure out where you're goingnext.
So this is something we have tocontinue to do throughout our
journey in parenting.
So what was it for you?
That kind of like, okay, welike.
(09:14):
Did you come to this pointwhere you, you decided on a part
like a particular parentingstyle?
Or adopted like a theory orsomething.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
It was eventually.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
it was that, but it started Eventually kind of
created a so to speak systemthat, just like you said, new
things come up and we just keepcycling through that same system
Whenever those new things comeup.
Whenever my view and his viewkind of collide, we can use that
same thing.
But we had this moment thatsort of started all of that,
(09:44):
where I was on one side, he wason one side and a completely
different side, and we'rethinking what are we going to do
now?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, and it was really a life-changing moment
where, totally unconnected to mykids, I convinced the
elementary school to fly me toFlorida to just learn from this
lady who's good at changingschools.
Her name's Dr Becky Bailey, andDr Becky Bailey was going to
help me and these otherprofessionals learn how to look
at behavior a different way.
(10:10):
Right?
Instead of it being somethingyou demand from kids, it's
something you teach them.
And so she's really big on thebrain science from Dr Dan Siegel
and talking about what thebrain looks like when we are
afraid and what it looks likewhen we are safe and secure in
the relationships around us, andit just looks completely
different, like that's actuallywhen we're open to learning and
changing.
(10:30):
And so, to be honest with you,jordan, like I'm watching this
at the conference, thinking I'mgoing to go help all these kids
at the school, and, um, I'm, I'mjust in tears and I'm just
seeing what I'm doing to mychildren.
I'm looking at what fear doesthat?
It actually raises kids to notbe self-controlled.
It raises them to need me tocontrol them.
I'm actually like perpetuatingthe very thing I'm trying to
(10:52):
stop.
It also raises them to be verykind of selfish and
self-protective instead ofcaring and loving and giving,
because they're scared, you know.
And so, as I saw that, Iactually called Sarah.
I was in Florida, I called herup and I just told Sarah it's
going to change From now on.
I am not buying into fear beinga greater tool than love.
I'm actually going to buy intothe fact that love never fails
(11:15):
and that love is stronger thanfear.
Fear is what I use when I'mweak.
Fear isn't something I use whenI'm strong.
I'm fear isn't something I usewhen I'm strong.
I'm making myself look strong,but but I'm not actually being
strong.
And so Sarah finally had somehope that I was going to do it
differently.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
I think, yes, yes, I was.
I remember that moment when hecalled and I was standing in my
living room and actually ourkids were playing at my feet and
and it did give me a lot ofhope and and really it was just
sort of the catalyst.
It was the moment where, okay,now there's, there was this I
don't know if maybe trust is theright word, but where he, it
(11:53):
increased our trust in eachother and it created this
openness so then we could moveinto doing these other things
that helped us and that we stilldo today.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
And that that, to answer your question, jordan,
that's where I think thecatalyst Sarah's talking about
was.
All of a sudden, I saw thatSarah was for me.
Before that, I thought Sarahwas against me, that Sarah was
trying to change me.
Sarah thought there wassomething wrong with me that she
needed to change and I couldn'tsee that Sarah was actually
trying to help me do it better,like she believed in my ability
to be a better father and that'sall she was asking me to be
(12:27):
open to was that idea.
But I saw it as her judging meor criticizing me and that kind
of stuff.
So that was the catalyst to theframework.
That's kind of the foundationalthing that we do is we trust
completely that the other is forthe other.
Right, I'm for her, she's forme.
Even in those moments where itlooks like I'm against you, I
(12:48):
actually want to be for you.
I just don't know how else tosay it right now.
So it looks like I'm againstyou, but I actually I'm for you
because it benefits us and ourkids if we're for each other.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Yes, 100%.
That's why I brought you on theshow, because, listen, we can
tell our spouse.
I've read this book.
I've learned this new thing.
There's this new strategy whereyou don't do timeouts, you do
time-ins and your spouse is likethis sounds awful, like our
kids are going to be running theshow.
This is an imbalance of power.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
We are going to lose.
Yes, well, I thought it was alack of control.
I thought it was weak.
I thought it was like oh, youwant me to be you, Sarah?
Well, I'm not you, and that'sthe reason why we got married is
because you're going to be goodcop.
I'll be bad cop.
That's what we have to do.
That's how this thing works out.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yes.
So you got this training andthe light bulb comes on and
you're kind of like, whoa, I'mseeing this from a totally
different perspective.
You come back home.
What did you guys kind of startdoing behavior wise to change
the way that you were parenting,from this place of fear or
discipline and consequences tothis loving kind of positive
(14:01):
discipline technique?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Yeah, well, we first of all decided upon hey, we need
to figure out, really, what arethe strengths and weaknesses
that we bring into this thing,instead of me judging you as
like weak and soft and me asstrong and like that.
I don't actually think that'show God's created us.
So I actually think, sarah, whenI look at you, your kindness is
(14:23):
a strength, like the fact thatyou don't get mad quickly is
good, that isn't bad right, andthen Sarah was able to say you
know what I love about you, andshe was able to point out the
obviously the flip of the cointo my weaknesses, which was my
passion, and that I candefinitely be intense and that
I'm a I can lead and I can verybe very assertive, right.
(14:45):
But then Sarah was like but whenyou slip over into the fear
stuff, you turn aggressive andyou know all those kinds of
things Right.
So we had this really goodconversation that happened over
a span of several days and weeks, months of just us, like you
know, what I see in you that Ireally admire is this, and she's
like I really admire that aboutyou, and like we started seeing
it as we're coming.
(15:06):
As you know, not perfect people, it's not our goal.
We have these imperfections inus that I think God is going to
use to actually help form ourkids into healthier human beings
.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
So good.
So you didn't go for thepractical, like, okay, now that
I'm back home, we're not doingtimeouts, we're doing time-ins.
You were like, whoa, let's stepback, let's pull back.
Let's kind of look at ourtemperament, our personalities,
our strengths and weaknesses.
Let's like sit in that for awhile and let that kind of
marinate.
Or let us steep ourselves inwho we were created to be, our
(15:40):
weaknesses and our strengths andthen form an appreciation for
each other's strengths andweaknesses, accept those gifts
and then honor those and seethat as complementarity.
I love that word, because it'slike your gifts, complement each
other as one right.
Yeah, yeah, because if you staythe other way.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
You stay in this place of judgment and you're
looking for what's going wrongand you really have to shift to
this position of being able toreframe things and look at how
you can grow together and and wewe do this still now, but where
his strengths, you know, I willrely on and sort of tap him
into a situation You're like,hey, it's your turn because
(16:22):
you're really good at this, orvice versa, he him into a
situation.
You're like, hey, it's yourturn because you're really good
at this, or vice versa, he'lltap me in.
It's like, hey, you take careof this because you're really
good at that part, and so we usethat to help our family as a
whole.
And so we definitely had tostep back and we knew each
other's personality really wellinside of marriage or even
working or friendship, but tolook at each other as a parent
(16:45):
and what they're bringing to thetable.
And we can always grow.
You know, I hope I grow incertain areas and he grows in
areas too.
But this starting point of, okay, this is what we have and we're
constantly going to be workingand growing, but let's see how
we can team up together and weneeded that foundation to trust
and to go forward, and we neededto also, I'd say.
(17:06):
The next thing I'd like to jumpinto is just, we also had to
revisit where the paradigm wewere parenting from.
You know, you have theseautopilot things that happen in
your head and we needed to beaware of those Cause, like the
good cop, bad thing didn'thappen in my home.
So when he sometimes will feellike I'm saying, oh, it's your
turn to be bad cop or he'll comein as bad cop, that's, that's
(17:27):
something that's autopilot forhim, but it's not for me, but it
helped me so much to realize.
Oh, you think, when there's aconflict, I'm asking you to come
in as the big bad guy.
And you know, make the kids dowhat I'm asking.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
So that really helped me just even that one little
thing.
But there's all thoseconversations about like what
was your, what happened in thesemoments in your childhood?
Yeah, when are you kind ofacting out of?
Speaker 2 (17:54):
And we'd never had those conversations.
You know, and that's what Ihope all your listeners hear is
we really started buying into inthat, in that kind of second
step that Sarah's talking about,that our kids are tools that
God is using to transform usinto the people we've actually
prayed to become Like, withoutall their idiosyncrasies,
(18:15):
without all of their little, theways in which conflict arises
because of them, that he'sactually shaping and forming us
into better human beings becauseof that, not in spite of them,
that he's actually shaping andforming us into better human
beings because of that, not inspite of it.
So I think that was a big partof it was like, oh, we need to
start seeing these conflicts notas moments to push away from
each other, like we had beendoing, because fear would say
that Fear would say push themaway, go put them in timeout or
(18:37):
go do like fear would say thatit's like no, no, these are
times to draw closer.
So during these conflicts weagreed we want conflict to be an
opportunity for intimacy, anopportunity to understand each
other.
Jordan, I told you we were juston vacation in California this
past week and there were severaltimes where I was stressed and
(18:57):
overwhelmed and tired and I blewup at the kids and instead of
beating myself up about that,man, the car rides we had
because we were driving a lotthrough all these national parks
man, we had some of the best,deepest conversations with the
kids where I just said hey, kids, what did you think about that
moment?
What did you think about whatjust happened back there?
Here's what was going on in myhead.
(19:18):
Can you tell what was going onin yours?
And actually I made the mistakeof having the Airbnb too far
away from Yosemite, but it endedup not being a mistake, because
those car rides went by so fastand Sarah and I would get back
and be like dang.
That was like one of the bestconversations we've had.
And it was all because I wasimperfect, it was all because I
(19:40):
acted in a way I didn't want to.
But then I was able to go backand without any shame, just with
humility of just saying, man,what can we learn about
ourselves through this thing?
And so I think, going back towhen we first started, those
were conversations we were nothaving because I was afraid of
what she'd say to me, that she'dsay I don't like how you're
doing this or doing this, butonce I really be like Sarah is
(20:02):
for me, she wants this thing towork.
She's not like undermining meand wanting this all to suck for
us.
So once I believed that then Icould have daily conversations
with her where she could give me, and then she'd say what would
you suggest I could have donedifferently?
And then I could give herinsight.
It was like, oh God, this is socool that we're not exactly the
same.
It's so cool that we see thesemoments differently but we have
(20:25):
the same focus.
And, jordan, this is important.
We had to believe once againthat fear is not helpful.
Like I do not want to have thatat our home.
So anytime I bring it, if Ibring the fear, it's not helpful
.
Like, even if I quote unquotegot what I wanted or got the
outcome, it's inevitably goingto hurt us.
It doesn't help us grow intobrave, courageous, responsible,
(20:48):
caring people.
It just causes us to be afraidfor ourselves.
Yeah, yeah.
So, having that as a beliefreally helped those
conversations, you know.
So, in going back, man, therewas so much insight that Sarah
helped me see and I helped herher see in ways we were, uh,
parented that were like you know, I love this about my parents,
I love this about your parents,but I would like not to do this
(21:10):
and I and I shared.
Sarah would say the same thingback.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yeah, we were able to have these conversations where
maybe like uh, in, for example,in his family, yelling was
common and they did a lot ofyelling In my family we didn't.
But the flip side of that is wealso kind of would sweep things
under the rug maybe, or wecouldn't share certain feelings,
or you know.
So it was sort of like, okay, Ilove the peace that was in my
home, but I want to bring thistoo.
(21:35):
And he was like, okay, I lovethat we could talk, but maybe we
don't need to yell.
So we were able to come and say, okay, let's set this part
aside from my childhood, let'stake this with us.
And then the next thing waswhat do we want to add?
What are we going to bring intoour family?
And so we start having thosekinds of conversations to create
(22:00):
the home environment and the.
You know, how do we want tonurture, how do we want to
discipline, how do we want to doall these things as a family?
Yeah, so going back to that,question you asked.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
That's where we started.
Making those decisions was on.
That third step was like whichexperts do we align with this
idea?
We need to start, okay.
So once we got then, I got toconnect with Dr Laura Markham,
who wrote peaceful parent, happyKids.
I got to journey with her forsix months and Sarah was just
loving that because I'm justlike, for six months I'm meeting
with Dr and I tell you what,jordan, every time we had a
(22:32):
disagreement back then I couldget Dr Markham on the phone and
I could actually talk to her andI'd be like you know what?
Let's see what Dr Markham wouldsay.
Every time she would agree withSarah, and so I'd be like, oh,
I do have so much growth, I dohave so much growth.
But the way Markham said itbecause once again I felt like
she was for me I was like thisis interesting when Markham says
the same thing that Sarah issaying, I'm much more receptive
(22:53):
and open.
Oh, I think because I'm notscared that Markham thinks I'm a
bad husband, whereas I'm scaredthat my wife does so once again
, that's why fear doesn't helpme is I'm not receptive to the
love and the, the, the ideas mywife has Cause.
I'm afraid she's saying I'mfailing, that I'm becoming my
dad or something like that, andand and I had to like let go of
(23:13):
that.
So then I could be moreopen-handed and receptive to her
feedback that she had.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yes, so I I hear you saying you know, at the
beginning it was like I'mfearful, I don't quite know what
I'm doing in this babyparenting thing.
You know, I don't want toreally weigh in because I don't
want to look like an idiot.
It's all this fear of judgment,Right.
And then there's a paradigmshift where it's like, wait,
this woman is for me, Like weare on the same team, and if
she's for me, then the thingshe's suggesting I can take, as
(23:43):
you know, constructive feedbackon how I can make a more
peaceful home and not use fearin our parenting.
And I love the openness andjust the candor about like when
it comes from someone else it'snot.
your spouse, Like everybodywonders why is that?
Why?
Why is it so much differentwhen I've been telling you the
(24:04):
same thing for 10 years but thenJohnny down the block brings it
up and you're like that's agreat idea?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
but you're so right Kyle.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Like it's the fear thing.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yes, yeah, well, and I'll give you an example of
where this was.
This was kind of like themoment where I'm like this is
phenomenal, I love it when Iwould come home.
There's a few weeks where Iwould come home from work.
It'd be late at night.
Back then I was working twojobs and I would come home late
at night and Sarah would alreadybe home with the kids and I
would hear Abby, our youngest,who's now 14.
She was like yelling at Sarahjust in her face.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
She was in that really big emotion preschool
toddler phase and so all thefeelings were super big and
after a day of daycare and timeto get you know time for bed,
she's exhausted, she's spent,and so we'd see a lot of big
emotions.
And so I would come home, hearher yelling the first time,
which is what he saw as soon ashe walks in the door.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
As soon as I walk in, I hear that and I think this
would not happen in my home.
This is not happening to my.
So I come in there, and thenI'm embarrassed to say this,
Jordan, but I would tell Sarahjust to leave the room.
I said get out of the room,Like you, let me take it, Cause
I thought, okay, look you, yourlittle nice thing ain't working.
So now, now I've got to come in.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
All that empathy.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yeah, I got, I got, I got to come in, I got to let
Abby know that I can get biggerand stronger, stop being so loud
.
And then I remember one nightthat happened I came out to I
was so mad at Sarah.
I was so mad at Sarah for hermaking me be the bad cop, like I
didn't want to do that.
I never wanted to have thatrelation with my kids.
(25:31):
It was like, because you refuseto be tough, I've got to be the
tough one.
So I came in the living room andSarah's on the couch and we're
we, at this point, had gotteninto this routine of having
these nightly parentingconversations, of just kind of
reevaluating what's working,what isn't.
Are we staying aligned with ourvalues, about how we want love
to be stronger than fear, and soforth.
And so I say to her I said youknow, what really upsets me is
(25:54):
how you're so passive that youmake me become aggressive.
And then she looked at me andsaid that's funny, because I
feel like I have to be passivebecause I know how aggressive
you're going to be.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
It's that teeter-totter effect.
We're trying to reach thatequilibrium.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
And so then I was like, how did you turn that on
me?
Like I was totally the rightone here, you're the wrong one.
So I sat down, I calmed down aminute and just said then what
do you suggest we do?
And she said I would suggest wedo what we've been reading and
what we've been learning.
And I said what's that?
She said why don't we try beingassertive, like we don't have
to be passive, we don't have tobe aggressive, let's be
assertive.
I said what does that mean?
And she said when you come home, if you hear Abby yelling at me
(26:30):
, just come in and ask if I needyour help.
If I say no, then walk away.
And I said then what do youwant me to do?
Sit on the couch, maybe prayfor me, maybe think some
positive thoughts about me,cause she's like I'm doing my
best and I've got to learn howto do this with Abby and Abby's
got to be confident.
I can do it with her too.
(26:50):
And so, man, it was interesting,jordan, when I sat on that
couch I was expecting it alljust to blow up in Sarah's face,
but I was doing my best to tryto pray for her.
And then I heard Abby within afew minutes, crying and then
hugging her mom and then calmingdown.
And then I was like, dang, thatwas actually kind of effective.
So then the next night that Iwalked in, do you need my help?
(27:10):
She's like, no, I sit on thecouch.
I'm like, oh, I can't wait tolearn, I want to hear what
Sarah's doing.
So.
So then I was like, wow, that'sinteresting.
But then there were nights whereI came home and she was kind of
tired too and she'd say, yeah,could you help me?
And then I found I didn't comein all tough and big and strong.
Instead I was like, oh, I'mgoing to try to do that thing
Sarah was doing last time.
I'm going to like, I'mseriously going to empathize and
(27:31):
listen to, and I actually likehow this feels, rather than me
screaming at her and trying tointimidate a four-year-old
little girl, right?
And so I just like, oh, so, sothat was a big lesson on like
man, if we worked together, manwe would be so it'd be so
beautiful and so powerful.
Because because the word we usea lot in our home is we
(27:52):
co-create together we wouldco-create the family we want.
And that's probably the laststep, that, as we started to say
what do we want this to looklike?
What kind of discipline do wewant to do?
Now, let's invite the kids intothis, because it's their family
too.
I want to invite them intoco-creating the family they want
to have.
And then, when they know theyhave that kind of power, jordan,
(28:14):
it helps them feel likeanything in the family we can
grow and change, like nobody'sstuck in place.
Dad's open to my feedback, andif dad's open, then I'm going to
be open to his feedback, youknow.
And so it makes it to where thefollow-up conversations after
things go sideways.
The kids are open to them, thekids want to have those talks,
(28:35):
and so that's what happened inthe car ride from Yosemite was
some really open-handed,open-hearted moments where we
co-created a different outcometo what had just occurred that
day.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
I love it.
I'm listening and just thinkingof the difference in the culture
of your family from operatingfrom that place of fear-based
parenting to love-basedparenting, and it reminds me of
what we talk about all the timeat Families of Character is just
that.
You know, we come with all thesedifferences in personalities
(29:08):
and temperaments and upbringings, but if we can unite ourselves
around a common goal or a commontheme, a mission for our family
, where you know love neverfails and fear isn't a part of
our family, then it breaks downall that division, it breaks
down all of the differences andhelps us come together in unity,
(29:30):
right?
And so the other thing that isjust so beautiful about what
you're talking about is thisidea of really employing
humility as husband and wife,right?
Hey, can I offer you somefeedback?
Yes, I need some right now.
Great, you know, I'd love tooffer you some feedback.
(29:51):
Yes, please help me, you know.
And then demonstrating this infront of your children and
constantly being like, oh man, Idid that thing again.
I blew up back there atYosemite, you know, like what
was happening for you guys right.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
And what was so cool, jordan, as you're saying that
I'm thinking of, a moment thatreally touched me was on our
drive back from Disneyland.
I'd gotten upset at Disneylandand there was a little bit where
I was hanging back from thefamily and part of me was
hanging back because I felt likemaybe the four of them are
better off without me around,because I get mad and I lose my
cool and I act like a jerk and Idon't want that.
(30:27):
And so in telling the kids thatof what was going on in my mind
, why I was hanging back and notnecessarily always walking with
them as a family, because I waskind of dealing with that
internal stuff is my 12-year-oldson said dad, what would have
helped you in those moments,like what would have helped you?
And I said, brandon, you know,what would have helped me Is if
someone would have told me theylove me just as I am and love
(30:49):
all the parts of me myweaknesses, my strengths Because
in that moment I didn't love mejust as I am.
I wanted to be somebody else andI was kind of sick of myself.
And so it was really cool where, a couple of days later, I was
upset about something and mydaughter Abby comes over, puts
her arm around me and says dad,I love all of you.
It was so cool and I was likethat's exactly what.
(31:10):
I was so cool that sheremembered that and did it
because it was exactly.
I never had articulated that tothe kids but I thought it was
such a cool moment to articulatebecause I bet they need that
too.
And that's actually at the core.
When we're saying love neverfails, we're not talking about
like oh, you're just never mad,you're like.
To me, love is strong, it ispowerful and at the core of our
(31:32):
family is one of my favoritequotes from an author I love
named Brennan Manning, and it'sthat God loves you just as you
are and not as you should be,because none of us are as we
should be.
And that was a piece.
Sarah made that a Father's Daygift one year, got that put on a
piece of wood and we put it upin our house and I wanted the
kids to see that and kind of getthat in their heart, because
(31:53):
that's at the core of whatpeaceful parenting is, that's at
the core of what consciousdiscipline is and these other
types of approach that they'rereally grabbing a hold of this
idea that it's through acceptingyou just as you are, that love
is what empowers us to have thecourage to change and to
actually do it better.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
So good, so so good.
I'm letting this just settle infor myself as I hear you and
it's just so beautiful, one ofthe things I love about the two
of you and I'm new to yourpodcast, I'm kind of new to your
community, but I love just thevulnerability and the visuals
that you're giving us.
Like yeah, I pout sometimes Idid this myself on vacation.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
I was totally pouting .
Speaker 1 (32:40):
But just to be able to give your kids, like the
words.
Obviously you've said whatwould have helped you in this
situation, son, because he wasable to say dad, what would have
helped you in that situation?
So, knowing that, man, our kidsare sponges, they are
constantly learning from us andwe're giving them language we
(33:02):
want them to use on themselves.
So it's important that we'reusing language that will help
them in the future, right, sofor them to be able to just say
dad, what could we have donedifferent?
So that you didn't hang backand be feeling ashamed of
yourself back there.
And for you to have that likewhere you're not trying to be
tough and be like you know what.
(33:22):
Never mind, I got this and thatwas just me being a jerk, but,
like you know, being vulnerableand saying I just want you to
tell me that you love every partof me, like just even in my
failings and my mess ups andeverything, because to me that's
a huge part of love.
Is just repairing thoseruptures right?
It's just, you know, beingwilling to call yourself out and
(33:45):
go.
I am not perfect.
None of us are like, let'slaugh about it later you know
and embrace it.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Yeah Well, and even that's not the goal, it'd be a
gross goal, sarah's, my goal wasto be perfect parents.
I actually don't think that'shelpful to your kids, because
your kids actually want to knowyou're imperfect, because it
allows them to be imperfect.
So the more you're honest aboutthat, the more it frees them to
then be able to be receptiveand open to growing and changing
.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Totally, Sarah.
Did you have a thought youwanted to share?
Speaker 3 (34:15):
No, I just I love all of that.
I love, um, that we can beimperfect humans, so our
children can be imperfect humans.
And when we come around eachother, it's not to take
responsibility for the other,you know, like he still owned
his responsibility and how heacted.
But then we can have thisconversation about what's going
(34:36):
on internally for us and how wecan come around each other in
those moments.
You know, because we ask ourchildren when they're upset,
what, what would help you?
But you know I can see you'rereally mad or sad or whatever it
might be.
What can help you?
And it's not to give themwhatever they want, but it's
like how can I come alongsideyou?
How can I help you hold thisbig feeling that you're feeling?
Speaker 2 (34:59):
you?
How can I help?
Speaker 3 (34:59):
you hold this big feeling that you're feeling and
um, and to know you're not alonein it, and to just, yes, to not
be a go to your room until thatfeeling is gone or buried deep
enough.
But, it's like how can we sittogether in this Cause?
We, we are a family.
We can help each other, we canjourney together.
We're not alone, and so I lovethe power of those conversations
and the modeling as we'reimperfectly modeling it, but
(35:21):
modeling it how to do this, howto come together and and care
for each other in ourimperfections, and that's what
frees us.
It's that love that frees us togrow.
It's that love that frees us toto not live in the shame of our
imperfections.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Yeah, but well, and going back to one last thing
I'll say, jordan, about that youwere talking about how our son
had that ability to voice.
These things is something thatreally impacted me too.
That Dr Becky Bailey taughtback at that first conference
was how little kids up to aboutseven or eight they don't have a
little voice in their head.
You know that they don't havethe ability to like talk to
(35:56):
themselves in their own mindlike we do, but she says when
that comes online that thatvoice is going to sound like
ours.
And that actually that's thegift that we give our kids, is
that voice, and it's really thevoice that's in our heads as
parents.
When stuff hits the fan, thethings we say are the voices in
(36:16):
our head that typically camefrom our own parents.
So she talks about beingintentional, about the voice
you're going to give them.
And all these moments where youuse fear or intimidation or
shame, you're actually justgiving them this lifelong voice
in their head to speak to themin that way.
And that's where I was, likeman, love is so powerful,
(36:37):
because if you can actually givethem a different voice, an
encouraging one, a hopeful one,then they're not constantly
battling that voice in everysituation.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yes, so good.
I just I love that that fromzero to seven, it's like you're
kind of programming them andtheir internal dialogue.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yes, yes, it's so important and and I wonder too
um, I'm thinking out loud aboutthis, but like how the age of
reason comes online at seven,right?
So it's like they've stacked upall of these words that we've
given them and then their brainis developing to a certain point
and then it's all of a suddenlike they're online and like,
whoa, we can have conversations.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
One thing I would add to that, too, is, as believers,
I really believe too, that alot of times, people have a hard
time hearing God's voicebecause it sounds so different
than the ones they heard growingup.
Right, like him whispering tothem I love you just as you are.
It sounds like a lie and likeno, it's actually true, it's not
a lie, right, and so that thatthat to me was so important, to
us as people of faith, is Iwanted my kids, when they heard
(37:44):
God say will you follow me, thatthey'll say yeah, because your
voice sounds just like myparents.
It sounds like it's an easytransition, instead of it going.
Follow you, where where are wegoing?
Is it going to be scary?
I said they trust that thefollow me is like oh yeah,
that's what my parents like.
The way we see discipline, theroot word of that is disciple,
(38:04):
right, and we see all disciplineas something we're doing with
you, not to you.
We're hand in hand, doing thediscipline with you, because
we're wanting to beself-disciplined people.
We want to give you the abilityto be self-disciplined too, and
so, hand in hand, we'recreating how to be more
disciplined in these moments,and I just think that's
eventually going to make iteasier for them to transition
(38:25):
into following somebody elsethat's even more loving.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
So true, so so true.
I love this.
So I want to get back to likethe practical.
Okay, you and Sarah had thismoment.
You're like we need to get toknow each other and like figure
out where we came from and andappreciate each other's
strengths.
Now do you have a resource forparents to be able to have this
conversation?
(38:49):
And I just want to emphasizethat you guys did this after you
had kids and started parenting.
It wasn't like you got marriedand you went let's learn about
each other and do this courseand right, so it's never too
late.
You can have kids in highschool and go.
We need to come back to thetable and like rewind 20 years
and figure out where we camefrom.
So do you have a resource forus?
Speaker 3 (39:09):
Yeah, and and what we use.
Even what we use, I'd say,different things are going to
come up in different stages.
So even though we did it whenthey were young, we have to
revisit this all the timebecause the expectations on now
we have teenagers, so myexpectations on what that looks
like to parent a teenager, to bea teenager in a home, are going
(39:29):
to be different than his.
So it is something that we comeback around to and so we kind
of put together a littleworkbook that you can use and
questions.
We found helpful thoughts andthings that we've worked through
together that help bring lightto things so we can make
decisions and create somethingtogether going forward.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Yeah, so we'll include that, give that to you
for the show notes, and we hopewhat it does inspire some
parents to sit down and just beable to have these conversations
, these open-handed, trustingconversations about each other,
to where these conflicts cancreate more understanding and
more intimacy with them and, tobe honest, with you, it's what
their kids want, like their kids.
I was a kid who wished myparents would have done this,
(40:11):
and if someone would have comealong with this tool, it would
have been an amazing answer toprayer that my parents are
actually sitting down andbelieving that they are for each
other and that they're going towant to not just dictate things
to us but to actuallyunderstand each other and then
invite us into that process oflike co-creating this family.
That that would be amazing, sothat tool would be great.
And then also I want to anyparents who are listening this
(40:32):
too and say hey, man, I wouldreally like some coaching in
some of those areas.
They can always reach out to me, jordan, at Kyle, at
ArtofRaisingHumanscom, and theycan reach out and we can set up
like a Zoom meeting to just seeif they're a good fit for the
coaching program we do.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
I totally recommend Kyle's coaching program.
I've already referred a fewcouples from our Thriving Family
Accelerator.
We have intimate conversationsabout what's happening in our
homes and our marriages and howconnected we are or how we're on
different pages, and I'vealready sent you a couple of
people.
So highly recommend what you'redoing, kyle, because you do
have this counseling andcoaching practice where you are
(41:10):
walking with parents, getting inthe trenches with them and then
giving them some very practicaltools to kind of align
themselves as a team, as aunited parenting team, to move
forward in love with their kids.
So this is so good.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
So so good and yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
I was just going to say also, we have the podcast,
which you've mentioned, and we'dlove people to join us on
Facebook, Instagram, TikTok.
Well, what we're doing there isconstantly doing reels, that
kind of expand the conversationthat we've had on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Check them out on social media and
artofraisinghumanscom, and I'mjust going to put this out there
.
I'm going to invite you backbecause there's so much more we
can talk about.
And I really want to bookmarkthis idea of like positive
discipline and this conceptcoming from a male therapist and
(42:06):
father and married man to othermen, because I just think this
is something that's kind of beenhidden under a bushel basket,
which it's not, shouldn't beright.
And it's this light to the world, to our spouse, to our kids,
and so let's, let's just do thatin the future.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
That'd be awesome.
We'd love that.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
So good.
Well, kyle and Sarah, thank youfor being on the show.
Thank you for sharing how youknow conflict in our marriage,
conflict in our family, can beused as opportunity for intimacy
, how love never fails.
And you know, fear is just whatI use when I'm feeling weak.
(42:48):
So, embracing this idea of loveas a family and that fear has no
place here and that our beliefin God and what we were created
to do and how we are created toco-create this family and this
amazing culture of teamwork, isjust where it's all at.
So thank you for being on theshow and, guys, check out the
(43:10):
show notes for all the links toKyle and Sarah and the art of
raising humans.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
Thank you for having us.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
That was awesome, so good.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
You guys are so awesome.
Thank you for sharing You'rewelcome and and.
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