Episode Summary:
This week on The Fandom Portals Podcast, Aaron is joined by Australian filmmaker Michael Papaeleftheriou, who takes us deep into the creative and logistical journey behind his short film Crossroads. From early Blockbuster inspiration to navigating the Australian indie scene, Michael shares how he evolved from directing no-budget shorts with friends to producing a festival-ready film built on intention, precision, and growth. They unpack the challenges of casting, editing, and creative control—and the power of learning through collaboration and setbacks.
Topics:
- Discovering filmmaking through Kevin Smith DVDs and Blockbuster
- Transitioning from early shorts (Park Bench) to Crossroads
- Writing with intention: marketability vs. message
- Building professionalism in indie filmmaking
- The casting process: filtering for commitment and trust
- Working with experienced actors (Shane Rodrigo, Leanne Mauro)
- Relationship between director and DOP
- Post-production challenges: staying over-prepared
- Navigating film festival submissions via FilmFreeway
- Why fear fades when preparation meets confidence
- Tips for emerging filmmakers and screenwriters
Call to Action:
Loved Michael’s story?
Follow his journey via @crossroadsfilmjournal and stay tuned for the Crossroads release post-festival. Here: https://www.instagram.com/crossroadsfilmjournal/?locale=en
Website: https://www.michaelpapaeleftheriou.com/crossroads
IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm6916328/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@michaelpapaeleftheriou
Crossroads Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-FCpvlexTA
Don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review, and join our mailing list at fandomportalspodcast.com for exclusive filmmaker interviews, giveaways, and deep dives into fandom and craft.
Apple Podcast Tags:
Indie Filmmaking, Australian Cinema, Kevin Smith Inspiration, Crossroads Short Film, Directing Tips, Short Film Festivals, Fandom Portals Podcast, Geek Freaks Network, Film School Advice, Casting Process, Behind the Scenes, Creative Control, Writing for Screen, Crime Genre, Emerging Filmmakers
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Thank you you.
Hi everybody from the fandomportals community.
It's aaron here and I wouldlike to proudly introduce you to
our newest guest, whose name isMichael Papalef-Berot.
He's an Australian filmmaker,director and producer and also
dabbles in a little bit ofacting and writing.
And Michael works in the indiescene and has recently put his
short film, crossroads, intosome of the film festival scenes
(01:42):
around the world.
That was a really great chatwith Michael.
He revealed a lot of hisprocess in terms of filmmaking
and he was also a really niceguy to talk to.
It was really awesome to get toknow him, and he has also
agreed to appear on the FandomPortals podcast again to discuss
one of his favorite movies, theMatrix.
So please enjoy this episode ofthe Fandom Portals podcast
(02:05):
featuring the Australianfilmmaker, michael
Papeleff-Thoreau.
Welcome to the Fandom Portalspodcast, the podcast that
(02:26):
explores how fandoms can helpyou learn and grow.
I'm your host, aaron Davies,and today I'm joined by Michael
Pape Elefero.
Michael is a filmmaker, awriter, producer and editor, and
he's got a short coming outwhich is called Crossroads.
Thank you for joining me,michael.
How are you today?
I'm awesome, aaron.
Thanks for having me.
Very, very welcome.
(02:47):
Now, we were talking beforeabout how you've gone on a
pretty big journey in terms ofyour filmmaking career.
Some credits to you.
You've done some short films,including Park Bench, no Way Out
and Crossroads, over the lastcouple of years, and we might
get into those a little bitlater.
But before we do, I wanted totalk to you about what sort of
inspired you to jump into thisfield.
(03:09):
What led you into thefilmmaking scene?
It's obviously a passion ofyours.
I can tell by how muchdedication and work you've put
into these projects.
So where did it all start?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
for you.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
So what happened?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
was I just finished my like.
It was like the last day of Idon't know if you guys have the
hsc in in queensland yeah, wehave something similar it was
the last day, like just finishedthe last test, and like I was
like, all right, mom, like youowe me for some reason, you owe
me, take me to blockbuster.
I'm getting like I'm gettingfive movies at once, um, so I
did that and then um had a bitof an epiphany where I realized,
like I I was always familiarwith the characters Jay and
(03:48):
Silent Bob, but I just assumedthey were like in one movie and
then I saw that they were on thecover of another movie and I
was like, what, you can't justlike put the same characters in
different movies.
That's like that's illegal,right.
So I rented Morat's and when Isaw that that, like Kevin Spieth
had just stuck his charactersin other movies, I was like, oh
(04:08):
well, if he's allowed to do that, then I'm allowed to make
movies, right.
Like the logic somehow clicked.
And then on all the movies thatI rented, I just consumed the
special features and like by theend of that week I was like, oh
, I want to do filmmaking Schoolengineering.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, oh man, we have that in common because I think,
like Blockbuster Video was justan experience for anyone that
kind of grew up in the 90s.
You'd go there and your weekendwas just fully planned for you
with whatever you rented out.
But I think, like those 90sfilmmakers, they kind of made
well, made sort of filmmakinglook accessible because they
Because they started from reallynothing, they hired their
(04:43):
friends to be in these kinds ofmovies and then they made
careers out of these sorts ofthings, like we recently just
did Jersey Girl on the podcast,which is a Kevin Smith movie as
well, when he went to go into amore sort of serious run without
the Silent Jay and Silent Bob.
But yeah, it's just funny tosee how that kind of thing can
develop into a career.
(05:04):
But I think there is a lot ofbarriers for a lot of people
where it seems out of reach.
And very much like you, Iconsume a lot of the special
features on dvds as well, so andit does kind of open the door
for it and it's sort of my toesin like curiosity wise and I'm
starting to talk to some peopleabout it, but I don't know if
I'd go down the sort offilmmaking route, but kudos to
you for doing it.
Man seems like a bigundertaking.
You started in writing, is thatcorrect?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
not.
I did start in writing.
I've sort of pivoted towardswriting.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
It's just so much more accessible and like it's
easier to be honest yeah, I canfully see that because, um, the
only thing that I would thinkabout writing was that it kind
of when you hand that script orthat that screenplay over,
you're kind of handing overcreative control, I guess you
can say, or the vision of how itwill look on the screen.
(05:51):
With your, with your sort offilmmaking experience, you've
done work as a, an actor, adirector and a producer.
What kind of roles have youfound?
And an editor as well, whatkind of roles have you found?
Is your preferred for one, andwhich one do you think is the
most challenging in terms ofthose spaces in film?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I'm gonna go with like the the cop-out answer and
just say you know, preferred islike writer, director.
That's like everyone'squote-unquote dream, um.
But I feel like I've developeda bit of a specialty for
producing.
You know, you go to film schooland like you learn about all
the fancy art stuff, but forsome reason, like you sort of,
(06:34):
yeah, there's a big deficit injust getting things done and
like that is actually what youneed to be doing, especially if
you, you know, not just paymoney to go to film school, but
like pay time.
That's a.
That's something that a lot ofpeople don't realize.
If you're gonna to take athree-year full-time course,
it's like three years that youcould have been doing something
else.
So you have to like make themost of those three years.
And you know, the best thingabout film school is like you
(06:56):
have free equipment, essentially, that you can rent, so you
should really just be making asmuch stuff happen as possible.
I think that's sort of where mystrength is, even though I
don't really do it too oftenanymore.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
And I think the connections as well correct me
if I'm wrong, but all of thepeople that you kind of meet in
film school are people that youcould potentially work with
later.
But also at the time whenyou're working with them, it's
good to, in a collaborativeexperience, you know, bounce off
of each other instead of doingeverything all by yourself,
which is pretty big as well.
So you said you went to filmschool and the sort of like with
(07:32):
the state of Australian filmsand especially indie films right
now.
Was it ever like a confrontingthing for you?
Like you said, you sort ofjumped into it after your HSC.
Was it ever confrontingthinking that the Australian
space isn't so large?
Jesse, was ever confrontingthinking that the Australian
space isn't so large, like whatwere some of the challenges in
terms of of making a film for anAustralian space?
And then obviously we had likeCOVID-19 as well, which would
(07:54):
have impacted the industry too.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
I don't think I ever got far enough to really give
you a serious answer withregards to that.
There is something like awkwardthat I've realized as I've kept
making more and more not makingmore, but like writing more and
more.
You know, when you, I think,when you come up in the
Australian circuit, everyone islike very quote unquote arts,
(08:16):
healthy, all the stories like,even even like in film school,
not just with regards to whatgets made, but in film school
you're surrounded by people thatare, you know, quote-unquote
visionaries or, uh,quote-unquote.
You know they, they wantstories that it's like, oh, the
human spirit and all this andthat.
(08:37):
But you know, most of themovies that get made especially,
but most of the movies thatjust get made in general, are
you know marketable things thatyou could see in a cinema.
Um, I think that is, it's a.
It's a sort of shame that wedisregard those a little bit,
because I feel like australiancinema sort of shoots itself in
the foot and even when somethingawesome does come out, it's
(08:58):
like it's not supported, becauseI think, you know, the
consensus is that, oh, if it'saustralian, then it's going to
boring.
Meanwhile we've got everyone atfilm school being like, oh,
like you know, these stories arealso like special, but, you
know, no one cares.
And if no one cares, then likewell, I can be able to make more
, and that's the catch 22.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Has that influenced your writing at all?
Because I know that somewriters do write to the market,
but other people write to sortof express a vision.
So has that sort of influencedyour writing, or are you one of
those people that really want tosort of express what you you
feel that you want to express?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
it probably did influence my writing in the
wrong way.
At the beginning.
It really hampered me, you know, especially when you go to film
school and you're learningabout like theme and you know,
like, what is your story saying?
And I've I've been lucky andlike I got caught up in that
stuff and then I got luckyenough to really surround myself
with the right kind of otherwriters, and you know that
(09:56):
stuff's all crap because at theend of the day, like, if you
can't write something that'sinteresting, no one cares about
what you have to say.
Like there's been so many youknow up-and-coming writers that
are like you know, he's myscript, I'll read, I'll give him
feedback, and then they'll belike, oh, but you know, but you
don't understand the story.
It's like, well, like Iunderstand it, I just don't care
because, like you haven't donea good job of writing and, to be
(10:17):
honest, like that sort ofblockbuster-y stuff where it's
like something simple, forexample, like, like you know,
there's a character in a hallwaythey want to get from one side
of a hallway to the other sideof the hallway and there's all
these obstacles, whether it's,like you know, furniture or
another character that's tryingto like like, stop them, then
maybe there's another characterchasing them.
These are the sort of the simple, you know tools of scene work
(10:40):
that you really need to get goodat if you want to make
something interesting.
It's like that's the basics andthe basics and people sort of
fuck go those because you knowthey have this like grand theme
and it's sort of like you'remissing the work.
You're missing doing likelifting like 10 kilos on the
bench press and you're goingstraight to like 100 kilos.
No one cares about your themeif you can't like write it in a
(11:02):
good way.
So yeah, hindered me at thestart, but I sort of got lucky
enough to surround myself withthe right people.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, and I think from following your like,
because I've sort of had a bitof a look at your Instagram
journal that you did forCrossroads, which we'll talk
about really soon but I like howopen and honest you were a bit
in the process through that andI think it was really like it
(11:31):
made it accessible, but it wasalso, I want to say it seemed
therapeutic for you to sort ofput it down in that way.
Chronologically, I think I sawone of your reels where you said
, on the down days or the lowpoints, on the days, you'll
you'll go and you'll look backat all of the things that you've
put on this journal forcrossroads and it will show you
how far you've kind of come.
So I guess my question is fromfrom my park bench to crossroads
(11:53):
, what's?
When you went to approachcrossroads as your, as your
short film that you were goingto do, it obviously took a very
different approach.
You said you wanted to diveright in.
Basically, can you explain alittle bit about crossroads and
a little bit about that processof transitioning from a project
that I think you said you castyour friends in and things like
(12:14):
that, to something likecrossroads, where it's a little
bit more sort of professionaland something that you want to
really dive into so my earlierprojects were, like you know,
very much the the fantasy oflike filmmaking where it's like
yep, just get your friends, solet's see what we could do and
like let's learn as well, andthat was great, like there were
great learning opportunities.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Like you know, I made some big mistakes with the
earlier films, especially ParkBench like the audio is horrible
, but you know I use the thoseearlier films as like stepping
stones and like as as a way tolearn.
Um, I didn't really like Isubmitted to a few festivals and
never got in, which makes sense, but the goal there was just to
(12:59):
learn.
And the goal with crossroadswas to like sort of reverse
engineer a career.
So, like I I sort of started atthe end with Crossover.
It's like I want money to makea feature.
How do I get money to make afeature?
Like I took a meeting withScreen New South Wales and they
said, well, you know, afterwe've looked at you know I had a
chat with them, like a videochat, sort of like I'm doing now
.
I told them this is, this iswhat I've done, this is what I'm
(13:20):
doing.
And they said, okay, like you,to get funding is to make a
short film.
You've got to hit these markers, you've got to get accepted to
such and such festival and thenyou'll be eligible for funding.
So now I'm the firstengineering things.
Okay, gonna make a short film.
I'm gonna make it like to thehighest quality as I can.
I've been writing heaps ofcrime, so like let's put in the
(13:41):
crime genre.
You know, all the mistakes frommy earlier films were like the
unpredictable elements.
All right, let's keep it at onelocation.
We're not going to even movelocations, it's going to be
indoors.
So like there's no, because withpark bench it was, it was
better to be a four-day shootended up being a two-day shoot
and then from that we went to aone-day shoot because when we
(14:02):
got to location the wind was sointense like I had I prepared
the audio equipment, we had likea blink, we had everything, but
the wind was so intense thatthe actors faces like you could
tell that they were just beingbombarded by a sand.
And like there's like a once ina year sort of a windstorm and
(14:22):
yeah, like that doesn't happenoften, but when you're renting
your equipment, when you'regetting like people to work on
your film, you sort of want tomake the most of it.
So I didn't want that variable.
So like now we're indoors andyeah, I just that's where I went
and I guess I wrote somethingto from there.
Like I wrote the script to thesetting and I wanted to get two
(14:43):
characters, because that's sortof like the minimum you need for
like something juicy, and itsort of just wrote itself from
there.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
To be honest, so when you, when you're writing
crossroads, you picked afamiliar genre, like like crime,
uh, that you sort of werecomfortable with at the time,
and then your location scoutingyou were.
You picked a single sort ofspace.
I guess it was an instance ofmoving parts, like keeping
elements within your control.
Would that be accurate?
Speaker 2 (15:07):
yeah, and that that was a big thing that I learned
from the earlier films,especially park bench.
An instance of moving partslike keeping elements within
your control, would that beaccurate?
Yeah, and that was a big thingthat I learned from the earlier
films, especially.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Park Bench, which was outdoors.
Yeah, I think all thosestepping stones really sort of
paid off into this final sort ofvision for you With Crossroads
as well.
You explained in your videojournal about the process of
casting and how you initiallywent for an approach that was
pretty open and then, when youclosed that and made it a little
bit more difficult, it was alittle bit more beneficial for
(15:37):
you.
Did you want to talk about whatyou've learned about casting
from your Crossroads experienceas well?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah.
So again, coming from likethose early days where you've
got like bright, wide open eyesand you know you think the world
is all sort of like flowery,you quickly, once you sort of
like corner yourself and you'relike because to make crossroads,
like I went back home to likework with my network essentially
, so I had limited time there,so I was like I had some big
(16:07):
constraints and that sort oflike I started out being like oh
, like you know, it's open toeveryone.
You know, I only need likethese basic things, like I just
need a headshot and you knowI'll look at your profile and
I'll figure out, like from yourprofile if you're good enough
and that, just like I startedgetting like I enough and that,
just like I started getting likeI had a female character and I
(16:29):
started having like, for example, like males applying you know
just ridiculous stuff.
That was like sort of wastingmy time.
I ended up being like all right, if you want to apply, like I'm
gonna put a make you put in alot more work, I'm gonna have
you like have a headshot, I'mgonna have you answer these
questions and, like you know, alot of people didn't even answer
(16:50):
the question, so it's like allright, like you don't even,
you're not serious, you're noton this level, because, like
you're not even following thosesort of instructions.
Like I need you to read thescript, I need you to do a self
tape, um, and like all thisstuff.
Like I know that actors hate allthe work that they have to do
beforehand, but it's like if I,if I don't make you guys do the
work, it's like I've got to dothe work, um, and I was just at
(17:11):
a point where, like I just Isort of just didn't care, like I
was, and the thing is like noneof these things really dictated
like what, like whether theactor would get the role, like,
like I wasn't going to be, likeoh well, that's it, you're out.
It's sort of just a thing oflike how committed are you to
this?
Because, like, I've had anactor pull out of a project like
(17:33):
on the day, and it's like Ican't afford any of that stuff
for this one.
So it was sort of just like atest to see how committed they
were.
And then, once they showed methat I was like quite responsive
to you know, getting back tothem and you know, organizing
like a proper audition,sometimes even like for my actor
, like I went to his house, likeI drove like one and a half
hours to his house to auditionhim and like I was willing to do
(17:56):
that because he had put someeffort in and I I knew that if I
, if it was, if it was right forthe part, then like why
wouldn't I spend that time?
Speaker 1 (18:05):
yeah, and that's that .
That's a uh buy--in as well.
If they're going to actuallyput in the effort to send you
the things that you want to orarrange a meeting with you and
meet with you, it gives themthat buy-in and it gives you
that confidence that they'regoing to apply themselves to the
project and they know thatyou're making something
authentically as well.
That was Shane Rodrigo, correct.
That's your primary actor.
(18:25):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, shaneRodrigo, correct.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
That's your primary actor yeah, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
What were some of the challenges in terms of casting?
What were some of the benefitsas well, of working with some
pretty experienced actors?
Because you had Shane Rodrigoand you had Leanne Mauro Is that
how you say her surname LeanneMauro Mauro?
Yeah, so you had a couple ofexperienced actors.
What was it like working withsome people that were
(18:48):
experienced in the field?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
basically, it was probably the best thing that
like I've ever experienced withregards to filmmaking.
You know I can like with myearlier shorts, like I I wanted
to use friends, I wanted tolearn.
I didn't want to like getprofessionals and be like hey.
So like I'm this new guy andlike I just need you to like do
what I say.
(19:09):
Like I wanted to like sort ofbuild myself up and it was fun
working with my actor friends,my non-actor friends.
It was fun working with likepeople at my level but they
really challenged me to, likeyou know, become like a way
better director and theyactually taught me heaps and,
(19:31):
honestly, more than any otherproject, like I felt like I had
people in my corner.
Like I feel like you know, whenyou're doing these like smaller
projects, you're always pushingpeople.
But and another thing, with likestarting out as a filmmaker,
you tend to cast actors that arelike in their twenties and you
know that's fine, like that'ssort of the stories that you're
(19:51):
writing about, but they probablydon't have all that much to
teach you.
So this was like me having achance to work with people that
you know had sort of gonethrough the ropes kind of bit
and who also didn't really wantto be messed around with, like
they didn't want their timewasted, and because of that I
(20:13):
felt like, oh, do I hear it?
Like these two people arealmost pulling me along, like
they're sort of helping me.
So I I learned apes just fromlike working with them.
We did a lot of rehearsals and,honestly, like that was
probably like my favoriteexperience of the film, just
like working with two phenomenalactors it sounds like it was
was pretty rewarding as well.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
And then with the like the, the set and the actual
sort of shooting, there was alot of things that sort of led
up to the day, like the day thatyou were sort of shooting all
the scheduling and things likethat.
There was a quite a few poststhat I saw around the shot list
and the scheduling and the calllist and things like that.
Can you talk to some of thechallenges that was in the
(20:55):
post-production of the shortfilm?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
With regards to the lead-up, it's so weird because I
went back to Sydney and Ithought I would shoot three
short films like while I wasthere, and you know that quickly
became one short film.
A big part of that was like meand my dob like trying to find
time for each other, oh yeah.
So that quickly went to oneshort and you know I regret that
(21:23):
there were some days that hewas free, that I prioritized
work and I realized I shouldhave just, you know, called in
sick, taking a day off, becausewe weren't really able to get
the shot list at 110 beforegetting on set.
We weren't really able to getthe schedule 110 and these sort
of documents like there's noreason that you should be able
to have them like set in stonelike a month before the shoot.
(21:44):
And what happens on everyproject is that, like the day
before the shoot, people arelike rushing around like oh,
what are we doing?
And it's like we, why isn'tthis stuff already set in stone?
Like we, when we get to set, weshould just be focused on
shooting, we should just befocused on executing, not coming
up with a plan.
So that was a bit of a shame,but it sort of worked out
(22:06):
because in my head you can neverbe over prepared.
So, for example, with parkbench, like I wanted to shoot it
over four nights, we shot itover one night and I was happy
with all the shots that we gotbecause I was over prepared.
I knew exactly what shots wecould lose.
I knew what shots, like, weshould take extra time on, get
extra takes.
I knew what shots we could justget away with doing one take
(22:26):
because I was over prepared.
And you know when the accidentshappen on set, that's when
being over prepared becomesbeing just regular prepared.
But if you, if you think you'regoing to get away with just
being regular, like a regularamount of prepared, and then an
accident happens, well you're,you're feeling screwed,
essentially, so we could havedone better.
But I think that's how italways is, like in the lead up,
(22:48):
like you can always do better.
Um, with the post-production, Ihad two weeks to edit it.
I sort of you know I wasleading simian.
I wanted to just get it wrappedbecause what I was going to do
was disassemble my computer andtake it with me and who knows,
maybe my the airline would losemy luggage, maybe I don't know.
So just said I'm finishing thefilm, I'm finishing editing
(23:09):
before I leave, and from thereit was honestly pretty smooth.
Like I worked with some like myday up.
He did the color grade, he wasquite busy.
I worked with a professionalsound mixer.
She was quite busy.
When they did what they did, itwas like wow.
I don't usually watch my, Idon't really like going back to
watch my own stuff, but I'vewatched this film like quite a
(23:30):
few times because I just Ireally like it for once yeah,
that's really good to hear, man,because when you put so much
work into something, lookingback on it, reflecting as always
, because we're always our ownWest Critter, can't we as well?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
when you're looking back at your own work, you the
little nuances, or the slightlittle thing that you might have
missed in a scene, or if thisover here was moved slightly,
like all those little things,because, yeah, you are so close
to the, to the project youmentioned before about your dop
and yourself, I think for me, Ihaven't really well, I've
underestimated the importance ofthe relationship between the
director and the dop.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
It sounds like it's really important I think any
relationship that's a goodrelationship is important and it
just sort of happens to be that, you know, michael is my DOP
considering we get the same namebut he's probably been my
closest collaborator throughout,like all my projects, because
we're just sort of on the samewavelength.
We've sort of always been inthe same sort of position.
(24:23):
You know, when he pushes, Ipull, when I push, he pulls.
We're just like we know eachother.
And you know, I remember, likeyou know, shane is just such a
particular actor.
He was like, yeah, you know, sohow are you and your DAP?
Because he's sticking back totimes where, like, he's in a
direct and DAP fight on set,which is not, you know, it's not
(24:43):
abnormal.
And I was like, yeah, look,we're great, like we.
Probably we will have a bit ofa back and forth on set, but
it's just because we don't needto, we can skip the pleasantries
, like sort of thing.
So it is really nice havingthat relationship with just
anyone.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
It just so happens to be that it is with my DAP and
you know, I wouldn't know how towork with someone else at this
point thinking about the, thepost-production of the film,
because I know for me likepodcasting, editing like this is
the fun part basically, butediting is the worst kind of
thing to get yourself motivatedto do and keep that momentum and
just keep sort of pushing alongWith your editing process.
(25:22):
What's involved in editing ashort film and what were some of
the drawbacks and challengesthat you had to to get the end
production that you're obviouslyreally happy with?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I would say the biggest challenge was trying to
watch it with a fresh pair ofeyes when, like that's
impossible.
You know, there was, there'sthis one sequence of cuts where
it's like, you know, in like twoseconds it's like four cuts,
five cuts.
And my, on my first run, like Ihad compressed that because I
(25:59):
had seen the footage so manytimes that the cuts were all
registered to me as like fluid.
But the challenge for me waslike how do I get these cuts
fluid for a first time viewerthat doesn't know what the next
shot is, whose brain isn't aheadof the shots.
So that was my first.
That was the most challengingpart.
But, to be honest, the rest ofit was pretty easy because,
again, just being over prepared,like the film was essentially
(26:21):
edited before we startedshooting, like I already knew
what was what it was going to be.
There were a few sort of happyaccidents along the way, like my
dvp turned three different shotsetups into one um, so that
dictated how the edit flowed.
But you know, again, like I'mjust, I'm just the type of
person that's over prepared.
And the thing about if you'renot going to be over prepared,
(26:44):
what you're going to do isyou're going to be like all
right, well, I need a, I need awide shot of these two people
talking.
And now I need an over theshoulder shot of the whole
conversation.
Now I need it.
From the other angle.
It's like, well, okay, that'sjust, like, that's just wasted,
like I don't know how long, butlike way too much.
If I know that I don't want theover the shoulder shots until
like five minutes into the film,the film, like we don't need to
(27:10):
do any, we don't need to wastetime with that.
So you know, being over overprepared like it doesn't just
help the day go smoother and andlike it doesn't just help you
stay ahead of schedule, but italso helps you just, you know,
be a much more consciousdirector and editor.
And yeah, I gotta say, like itwas, it's actually like a pretty
easy edit.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
That's really.
Yeah, that's really good tohear, because I know that
sometimes it can be a little bitof a bog down, but yeah,
because it went so well.
I think that some of the someof the things that you talked
about in your, your videojournal was the fact that you
you now sort of would approachprojects without a sort of level
of of fear attached to it, likethere was a little bit of
(27:46):
nervousness going into thisproject.
Did you want to explain that?
And then the process afterwardswhere you sort of let that go
yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
So, like I think, for every project, you you're sort
of scared, um, you know, uh, man, I hate to, I hate to get like
what's it called a self-help oneveryone, um, but I was watching
this interview with GeorgeSt-Pierre, who's an MMA fighter.
The way he breaks down thingsreally resonates with me.
And he was saying, like, youknow, there's this element of
(28:17):
fear where and he's trying tobreak down fear like, what is
fear?
Like, why am I feeling fear?
And he's like, well, the fearis coming because I don't have
confidence.
Why aren't I confident?
It's feeling fear.
And he's like, well, the fee iscoming because I don't have
confidence.
Why aren't I confident?
It's because I haven't preparedproperly.
So, like, how do you overcomethat fear?
You prepare, you know whatyou're going to do, you practice
your scenarios, you testyourself and then when you get
there, the nerves will wash awaybecause you have prepared and I
(28:42):
guess it's like you're notfacing the unknown.
You know what's going to happenwhen this happens.
You know what's going to happenwhen this happens.
You know what's going to happenwhen this goes wrong.
And I think, you know, everyfilmmaker is sort of sort of
does have a healthy amount offear.
But if I just if I go back toliterally every set I've ever
been on, the fear comes fromlike not being prepared and you
(29:08):
know this was the first timewhere my preparation met
expectations and because of that, like it's you know it's not an
unknown variable for me anymoreLike I know that if I prepare
in this way, I will get these,like I should get these results.
Now, don't get me wrong, ifthere's a windstorm, I can't
help that.
But the fact that I wentthrough like a project like this
(29:31):
from start to finish and gotlike great results like that,
that unhealthy vr has justwashed away because you know, if
they, if they got me to directlike avengers 10, like most
people are going to be like ohmy gosh, oh my gosh, whereas I
would just be like, well,avengers 10 is literally
crossroads, but like there's alot more scenes in it and it's
going to be like I don't know, abit under 10 times longer, like
(29:53):
there's not the only thingthat's changed is like the
runtime, but the fact that I cando one scene, which crossroads
was essentially like one scene,but the fact that I can do that
to like this level, that I'msatisfied with all the unhealthy
fear is gone now and everythingdoes look so professional.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I've seen the trailer that's available, that you've
shot as well and the actors do abrilliant job and the
lighting's perfect as well.
I think that that fear thatyou're talking about that's gone
.
It's learning through doing,which is like.
I'm a teacher by profession,and that's literally the best
way that kids learn as well isgetting them into this space and
actually allowing them to toexperience something themselves,
(30:33):
instead of sort of telling themhow it's going to be and what
they should know.
It's really like the best sortof sort of learning.
So I think from this project itsounds like that you've you've
got a lot of sort of takeawaysand a lot of things that you
could bring into other projectsand, I guess, a larger network
of people you could sort of talkto about different things as
well.
In your newer role, as you said, you pivoted into sort of
(30:58):
writing.
Do you think that you would goback to do something in terms of
filmmaking, directing again orsoon, or are you pretty
satisfied in the in the writingspace right now?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
yeah, I'm beyond satisfied with writing.
To be honest, if I did for therest of my life I'd be happy,
professionally or not.
But you know I I definitelywould be open to pivot back into
filmmaking down the line.
It's just that, like you know,crossroads was like six months
of, like you know, working likea laboring job and saving up and
then spending all that money onlike 15 minutes, less than 15
(31:37):
minutes, of film.
Actually I don't think I've gotthat in me again.
Like you know, I need, I needsomething else to happen, like I
need to, you know, get somefunding.
Or I need, like I need someoneelse to come and say hey,
michael, like I want to workwith you, like let's, let's do
something together.
But for me to just like carryeverything or almost everything
and like drag everyone elsealong and give up sort of six
(32:00):
months of my time, is like Idon't think I could do that
again.
And the thing is like I couldmake an even simpler film.
But I really enjoy the processof that collaboration.
Um, like I could shoot a filmall by myself if I wanted to,
but honestly that wouldn'treally interest me.
Like the process of that wouldinterest me.
I know there's a lot.
A lot of people say, oh, you'vegot to do everything yourself,
you've got to learn by doingyourself, and I get that.
(32:22):
But, like you know, thosespecial features that I saw on
those DVDs, like thosefilmmakers of the 90s, their
thing wasn't making films ontheir own, like that was their
thing, was like making films andcollaborating, and that's what
drew me into this in the firstplace.
So I would hate to lose that,but at the same time I'm not in
a place where I can do that tothe level that I'm happy with,
(32:42):
without sacrificing heaps oftime and money which I just I
don't have.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Yeah, and I can understand that too, because it
can take a lot out of you tocreate something like this.
It's almost like a I don't know, like a 12-week challenge or
something like.
It's just so intensive for thatshort amount of time and you're
running at this certain sort oflevel and then you know once
that's sort of over.
I guess that's my question foryou as well.
When this sort of wrapped andwhen it finished and everything
(33:07):
was edited and you watched thefilm for the final time, what
were some of the feelings thatyou experienced, knowing that
this was done and it was done tothe quality that you kind of
were happy with and werecomfortable releasing to the
public?
Speaker 2 (33:21):
It's just relief.
Like you know, a lot of people,a lot of people ask me like are
you happy?
Are you happy?
And like I don't know, like I'mnot happy, I'm just, I'm just
very relieved, relieved thatit's like of a good quality and
that it's finished.
But with that said, it's likeit's sort of still not finished,
because I'm again and thereason why I made the, the
(33:43):
journal, is because, you know, Ifeel like I'm at a level where
it's like once you have somesuccess at this level, you sort
of it's not in your bestinterest to share that success,
to share how you're navigatingthis, because there's so many um
, there's so many things thathappen that are unspeakable.
You don't want to say them andsort of tarnish not number one.
(34:07):
It's like you don't want totarnish what you're doing, but
number two is like you don'twant to tell other people about
this, because if everyone jumpedin on this, then like it's
going to make it harder for you.
So a big thing for me is like,once you hit this level, it's
like there's no information,like people are not forthcoming.
So I was trying, I think, witha, with the journal, was to sort
(34:27):
of share that experience andyeah, so.
So the thing is it's notfinished because I I didn't
realize.
But this whole film festivalthing is its own, like other
battle, and I'm just learningthat now.
So you know, I am I'm stilldoing marketing, like I'm still
like I'm doing these podcasts,like i'm'm constantly updating
the press kit, I'm emailing likefestival directors, I'm working
(34:52):
on a post art that's like ofgreat quality.
You know, being able to thinkabout it from a festival
director's point of view wasn'tsomething that I really
considered before.
Like you know, if you have likea subpar poster, most festivals
are trying to like raise theirlevel of prestige with your film
.
If you have a subpar poster,it's sort of like saying it's
(35:14):
sort of like me with the actors,like I'm not passing the
scratch test, so why would they,why would they put my film in
when I don't even have a goodposter?
If that makes sense, yeah, Idon't even have a good poster if
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Yeah, it's almost like it's not benefiting them to
have your film in theirfestival, even if it might be
good.
Like the poster is what sort ofsells it?
It sounds like the festivalgame is like a whole nother
ballpark.
There's lots of little minilessons that you sort of going
on through this journey, likeyou finished the filming, you've
done the editing and the postand now it's like marketing and
film festivals.
Are there festivals?
(35:46):
Are there any that you've sortof submitted to that you could
tell us about, and what was theprocess like for for actually
submitting?
Speaker 2 (35:50):
to those film festivals.
Yeah, and just just toreiterate, like there is,
there's a lot of stuff that I'velearned that I I'm not going to
talk about on the instagramjust yet, because the instagram
is meant to be like thismarketing thing.
So if, like a film fest, if afestival director goes to the
instagram and sees me saying, oh, like, these are the negative,
these are the things you've gotto watch out for with festivals,
it's sort of like, say, well, Idon't want this guy to come to
(36:10):
my festival because he's goingto talk shit.
Um, so like, I'm forced to likesort of stop being honest on
that until the festival run isover.
So I am learning, but I'm justI'm not able to share right now
publicly on that.
But yes, the process essentiallycomes down to one or two things
.
You're either going to apply ona on a festival's website or
(36:33):
you're going to apply on filmfreeway, which essentially it's
this.
It's this website that connectsto other festivals.
I haven't submitted to anyfestivals directly, because I've
realized that if you areprestigious enough to not use
film freeway, then you'reprobably not going to be open to
(36:54):
taking my film.
Not that it's like bad oranything, but like I'm not that
well like there's.
There's nothing else that I'vedone that's big enough to get me
into these.
So that level of prestigiousfestival, if that makes sense.
So it's basically just beingfilm freeway and that
essentially just comes down toyou uploading your film uh, you
know, putting a director's bio,putting information on your cast
(37:16):
and crew, a poster trailer,like you can put everything on a
film freeway and then youessentially just choose what
festival you want to submit toand you submit it.
Like you can put everything ona freeway and then you
essentially just choose whatfestival you want to submit to
and you submit.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
It's pretty streamlined, yeah, so that's
accessible to anybody who sortof has made or is a filmmaker
that is aspiring.
So what sort of tips would yoube able to give to these
aspiring filmmakers now, havingdone quite a few short films
yourself and being on a numberof like filmmaking sets and
being in the writing game for alittle while?
What's something that you'dtell somebody that's either just
(37:50):
starting their career or isjust sort of developed their
first or second film?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
so, yeah, let's start from the bottom and go to the
top.
Um, if you, if you, if youhaven't done any, even made any
films before, um, you need tojust get on set some like
volunteer, you have to volunteer, you have to.
When I first started like youneeded to volunteer, like it was
crazy to think that you'regoing to get on set and like get
paid.
Now it's sort of like shifted abit where it's like you're
(38:19):
crazy to think you're going toget on set, like you're going to
be able to get anyone on setvolunteering.
I, if you've got nothing, ifyou've got no experience on set,
like you're going to be able toget anyone on set volunteering.
If you've got nothing, ifyou've got no experience, you
need to volunteer.
You need to just offer yourwork for free, just to learn and
to network a little bit.
If you're going to film school,you need to be shooting
something every week.
It doesn't have to be a shortfilm, it can just be a scene,
(38:40):
but you need to.
The whole point of film schoolis to network and to build a
portfolio.
So you know, if you, if you'reshooting stuff consistently,
you're doing both of those Likefrom there, I would really just
encourage people to just keepactive in their network.
Like, if you've my thing, like,once I finished film school, I
sort of like I had my networkand I just thought, like these
are the guys that I'm going tobe with forever.
(39:02):
And you know, when I went backto make Crossroads, like I
brought on three people from mynetwork Like they were, you know
, my DAP, the camera assistantand my producer, my co-producer,
I should say but I don't thinkthey had made any narrative
projects since, like the lasttime we had worked together, so
(39:25):
like there was a little bit of agap with them, but everyone
else, like had just moved onfrom filmmaking completely.
So you really need to just youneed to constantly be growing
your network, because if you'renot growing it, it's it's
actually dwindling, and that'ssomething that I've noticed is
very important in writing, likeyou know, I dabbled in writing
(39:48):
for 10 years and I never wroteanything that was half decent.
I met three other writers thatwere sort of like on my level,
had my vibe, and in two yearsI've like, like I'm a pretty
good writer now, yeah, like, soit's important.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Yeah, networking I think is really important.
And networking I think isreally important and, like with
the writing space, I thinkthere's a lot of people out
there that can tell you sort ofhow to do it or lots of like
short courses that can tell youall the different things that
you need to know broadly.
But I think it's a lot aboutfinding what works for you, and
you said you know, finding thepeople that you sort of vibe
with what?
Finding the people that youvibe with what do you enjoy to
write?
(40:23):
Now?
Is it still in the crime vein?
Are you looking elsewhere?
What sort of things?
Speaker 2 (40:33):
excite you in terms of writing.
Now, generally it's alwayscrime.
It's just such a great way toput people in situations that
refuel truth, if that makessense.
Um, you know, sink or swim.
There's not many other genresthat are sink or swim, and the
thing about crime is like youcan, you know you could get
(40:54):
someone like walter white andbreak me bad just like the
average guy, put him in thislike really insane scenario and
then, like we're gonna see whathe's made of, whereas, like you
know, even action, all right,let's put this like special ops
guy in a crazy situation wherehe already knows what to do, and
that you know.
That's not like you know.
That's just not where I vibe, Ifind.
(41:15):
I find like my thing withwriting is like just putting
people in these sort ofscenarios that are way above
them and they're sort of notequipped enough to handle, and
it's like, well, how do youhandle that?
Now?
I think that is an element ofwriting that's really
interesting to me and becausethat crime is is up there yeah,
I think for crime as well.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
If you're looking at character, I think it also shows
such a vast spectrum ofcharacters because you know,
obviously you're lookingwhatever criminals you're kind
of looking at, but even theprotagonists in a crime sort of
drama is looking at differentaspects of humanity which would
be interesting to explore aswell, I'd imagine yeah, like you
(41:58):
know, the godfather is on oneside of the spectrum and like
breaking bad is on the otherside of the spectrum, like those
are Bad is on the other side ofthe spectrum.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Like those are two way, like two very different
starting positions, two verydifferent characters, but you
know they're still in the crimegenre, so there is a lot of
variance with it.
Like you can start with, youknow, you can start with like
the average guy who's like nevercommitted a crime before, or
you could start with like a mobboss, and yeah, there's a lot of
room between that spectrum forwhat you just said.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
So I completely agree yeah, and I think that's that's
what sort of draws me to crimeanyway.
Is this the, the character andthe characterization and the way
that that's put to screen ishow relatable is this person
that may be doing somethingthat's absolutely abhorrent, but
there is like a human aspect tothem that sort of draws you to
that.
Or then, alternatively, with anantagonist, with a protagonist,
(42:47):
is, you know, putting them likethis regular person that you
would absolutely relate to?
Putting them in a situationwhen it's absolutely unthinkable
and watching them do things inthat vein and then having the
audience sort of question thatas well in themselves.
So I think the relationshipbetween character and audience
in crime is really, really good,and I think it's also a really
good way to provide tension asthe story goes on, because, as
(43:10):
you said, the stakes are asingle swim or life or death in
a lot of cases.
So that's really awesome.
Man, do you have a favoritego-to crime TV show or movie?
That is just your thing.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Better Call always like just up there for me, you
know, and it's crime, like onthe surface it's crime, but
there's like so much of that,you know, fancy lovey-dovey
character stuff as well, likeit's the.
The genre just has so much roomfor that.
And that's another thing where,like a lot of going back to
like our earlier discussion, Ithink a lot of australians are,
(43:48):
like you know, reluctant toattach their thing to a genre.
But you know, better coursealways just such a awesome
exploration of character orcharacters, I should say, and
it's, it's in the crime genre.
Honestly, your last statement,just really, you said it
(44:09):
perfectly.
I'd just truly be repeatingwhat you said.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
Yeah, no thanks man.
Yeah, I just.
I really like the crime genreas well, and I think that it's
one that shows the true sort ofbase of all aspects of humanity.
So are you the type of personas well when you're writing, do
you are actually viewing thingslike that?
Looking at dialoguespecifically, because I know
(44:32):
that some people have said, whenthey're doing screenwriting and
things like that, dialogue canbe particularly hard to to get
and write authentically.
Is that something that you findas a challenge?
Speaker 2 (44:43):
um, big time.
I, to be honest, I don't thinkI've ever done it.
You know, dialogue is sort ofthe last thing you want to do
and it's it's sort of like don'tget me wrong like I'll write
dialogue as we go and like I'lltry to do a good job of it.
But, to be honest, you're nevergoing to do an amazing job of
dialogue if everything else is,like you know, perfect.
Um, and, to be honest, I don'tthink I've ever gone into that
(45:06):
point where I'm just like Ithink I'll just sit here and do
dialogue today becauseeverything else is ready.
It's like I just it's, it's anever, never ending battle.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
Yeah, looking at, this whole project in your
career so far, we usually sortof end with a with the most
valuable takeaway.
So from your, your experiencewith like crossroads or park
bench, or even in your career sofar, we usually sort of end
with a most valuable takeaway.
So from your experience withlike Crossroads or Park Bench,
or even in your writing sort ofexperience, what's something
that you would share as a mostvaluable takeaway for you or the
(45:33):
biggest learning that hasoccurred for you in the space of
filmmaking for you so far?
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Yeah, I think if I'm just going to get to something
that's really applicable, thatanyone listening can take away
and do, is just write somethinga little bit more mature and,
you know, cast two experiencedactors to pull it off.
You know, you can.
I feel like you know, when youmake it, like when you produce a
(46:03):
film, when you direct a film,everyone that comes on board is
coming on board for variousreasons.
Generally it's like to to getsomething on their portfolio to
help themselves out.
That's why money is so good,because once you pay people,
it's like all right, well, I canlike now I'm here for money and
the way that I get the money isby doing a good job for this
guy, not doing a good job formyself, but with actors, like if
(46:28):
you, if you write somethingthat requires actors that are a
bit older, because again, likecoming from the film school days
, like it's just like, oh yeah,everyone is like a hit 20 year
old and they're like doing 20year old things and it sort of
limits you like I cast adaptersthat have a wave of experience
and, for the first time, like Iwas really just sitting down and
(46:52):
like learning from someone elseand I never had that experience
before, like I sort of regretnot doing it earlier, because I
would have come so much further,so much faster if I just
elected to work with moreexperienced actors.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
So that's definitely something yeah, pulling out the
best in you as well.
I think is is what I'm hearingjust because they're able to
communicate with you what theirsort of intentions are.
What they're reading is withthe script, but then also in
that working relationship withyou, in that professionalism, it
sounds like it was a reallyrewarding experience.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
A hundred percent and like the way that actors break
down a script is like it'salmost like the best writing
education I got.
Like you know, I did.
I did a few subjects of writingat uni and, like the actors,
the actors know better than theteachers, to be honest, because
they have to.
They have to, otherwise theyjust say they're just going up
(47:46):
and essentially BSing, which,yeah, you might BS yourself
through like the beginning, butif you're going to be doing it
for so many years 10, 20 yearsyou're going to learn a thing or
two and you're going to stopdoing that.
So I feel like they actuallygot me to become a better a way
better writer, because you know,not just because of what you
said, but because they had a lotof questions and those
questions make you think andthey make you have answers and
(48:09):
they make you, you know, putthat in the script, at it like
next time, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
Yeah, that does.
Yeah, michael, thanks forjoining me today and I really do
appreciate it.
Can you tell our listenerswhere we might be able to find
Crossroads when it does release?
And everybody should also checkout your IMDb and your film
journal, which we'll link in theshow notes below so you guys
can all track Michael's stuff.
But where can we findCrossroads and when can we
(48:35):
expect it to be released forpeople to look at and see?
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Yeah, I would guess that in about a year I'll
release it online, becausethat's just how many festivals
I've submitted to and you, youcan't submit, you can't put it
online before you finish afestival run.
Essentially, um, so in about ayear, just, you know, go to go
to my Instagram crossroads filmjournal.
There's a there's a link treethere to my YouTube channel.
(48:59):
It'll be on that and yeah, Iwould, just, I would urge any,
any, really any filmmaker thatis, like you know, doesn't have
their professional career likeahead of them set in stone check
out the, the Instagram because,like, I went from the start of
the process and I'm stillupdating, like it's.
You know, I wasn't shy about,like, being forthcoming with my
(49:22):
mistakes and as, as we finishthe festival run, I will not be
shy about being forthcoming withmy mistakes and, as we finish
the festival run, I will not beshy about revealing all.
There's just such a big jumpbetween your first couple of
learner projects and yourquote-unquote big shop project
that people don't want to talkabout, and I'm more than happy
(49:43):
to talk about that and sharethat information because you
know it's.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
It's opening the door , I think, for people, but it's
also showing that it'saccessible.
Well, this is what it did forme, anyway, when I sort of saw
it, and also, again, thatforthcomingness that you said,
that openness, that honestyBecause, like you're a guy, just
you said that openness, thathonesty because you're a guy
just like myself, like anybodyelse that's out there, and
you're doing these things thateverybody looks at on the silver
(50:12):
screen, on the big screen, andit's endearing.
And it's also great to see thebehind the scenes for those of
us who like that sort of thingand the challenges that a
regular sort of person is goingthrough when they're doing what
they may be dreaming of doing orwhat they've thought of doing
or things like that.
So I actually I found yourInstagram journal like a really
good follow, so I definitelyrecommend everybody do that as
(50:33):
well.
It'll be in the show notesbelow, so keep going on it, man.
I'll be following you along.
It'll be good.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Thank you Likewise.
I really loved the episode thatyou recommended me it.
Thank you likewise, I reallyloved that.
Your your love the episode thatyou recommended me.
That definitely took a fewnotes from my writing.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
So, oh, yeah, likewise, yeah, jeremy Drysdale.
He was a good talk man, it wasreally good.
I hope to do more things likethis, and that's sort of the
purpose of our guest spots,anyway, is just to teach people
things that they want to learnabout in the space of film, of
fandom.
So I appreciate you coming onand sharing your part and doing
your thing.
Thanks for having me, noworries, and I'll see you guys
next time.
All right, thank you bye.
Thank you you.
Hi everybody from the fandomportals community.
It's aaron here and I wouldlike to proudly introduce you to
our newest guest, whose name isMichael Papalef-Berot.
He's an Australian filmmaker,director and producer and also
dabbles in a little bit ofacting and writing.
And Michael works in the indiescene and has recently put his
short film, crossroads, intosome of the film festival scenes
(01:42):
around the world.
That was a really great chatwith Michael.
He revealed a lot of hisprocess in terms of filmmaking
and he was also a really niceguy to talk to.
It was really awesome to get toknow him, and he has also
agreed to appear on the FandomPortals podcast again to discuss
one of his favorite movies, theMatrix.
So please enjoy this episode ofthe Fandom Portals podcast
(02:05):
featuring the Australianfilmmaker, michael
Papeleff-Thoreau.
Welcome to the Fandom Portalspodcast, the podcast that
(02:26):
explores how fandoms can helpyou learn and grow.
I'm your host, aaron Davies,and today I'm joined by Michael
Pape Elefero.
Michael is a filmmaker, awriter, producer and editor, and
he's got a short coming outwhich is called Crossroads.
Thank you for joining me,michael.
How are you today?
I'm awesome, aaron.
Thanks for having me.
Very, very welcome.
(02:47):
Now, we were talking beforeabout how you've gone on a
pretty big journey in terms ofyour filmmaking career.
Some credits to you.
You've done some short films,including Park Bench, no Way Out
and Crossroads, over the lastcouple of years, and we might
get into those a little bitlater.
But before we do, I wanted totalk to you about what sort of
inspired you to jump into thisfield.
(03:09):
What led you into thefilmmaking scene?
It's obviously a passion ofyours.
I can tell by how muchdedication and work you've put
into these projects.
So where did it all start?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
for you.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
So what happened?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
was I just finished my like.
It was like the last day of Idon't know if you guys have the
hsc in in queensland yeah, wehave something similar it was
the last day, like just finishedthe last test, and like I was
like, all right, mom, like youowe me for some reason, you owe
me, take me to blockbuster.
I'm getting like I'm gettingfive movies at once, um, so I
did that and then um had a bitof an epiphany where I realized,
like I I was always familiarwith the characters Jay and
(03:48):
Silent Bob, but I just assumedthey were like in one movie and
then I saw that they were on thecover of another movie and I
was like, what, you can't justlike put the same characters in
different movies.
That's like that's illegal,right.
So I rented Morat's and when Isaw that that, like Kevin Spieth
had just stuck his charactersin other movies, I was like, oh
(04:08):
well, if he's allowed to do that, then I'm allowed to make
movies, right.
Like the logic somehow clicked.
And then on all the movies thatI rented, I just consumed the
special features and like by theend of that week I was like, oh
, I want to do filmmaking Schoolengineering.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, oh man, we have that in common because I think,
like Blockbuster Video was justan experience for anyone that
kind of grew up in the 90s.
You'd go there and your weekendwas just fully planned for you
with whatever you rented out.
But I think, like those 90sfilmmakers, they kind of made
well, made sort of filmmakinglook accessible because they
Because they started from reallynothing, they hired their
(04:43):
friends to be in these kinds ofmovies and then they made
careers out of these sorts ofthings, like we recently just
did Jersey Girl on the podcast,which is a Kevin Smith movie as
well, when he went to go into amore sort of serious run without
the Silent Jay and Silent Bob.
But yeah, it's just funny tosee how that kind of thing can
develop into a career.
(05:04):
But I think there is a lot ofbarriers for a lot of people
where it seems out of reach.
And very much like you, Iconsume a lot of the special
features on dvds as well, so andit does kind of open the door
for it and it's sort of my toesin like curiosity wise and I'm
starting to talk to some peopleabout it, but I don't know if
I'd go down the sort offilmmaking route, but kudos to
you for doing it.
Man seems like a bigundertaking.
You started in writing, is thatcorrect?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
not.
I did start in writing.
I've sort of pivoted towardswriting.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
It's just so much more accessible and like it's
easier to be honest yeah, I canfully see that because, um, the
only thing that I would thinkabout writing was that it kind
of when you hand that script orthat that screenplay over,
you're kind of handing overcreative control, I guess you
can say, or the vision of how itwill look on the screen.
(05:51):
With your, with your sort offilmmaking experience, you've
done work as a, an actor, adirector and a producer.
What kind of roles have youfound?
And an editor as well, whatkind of roles have you found?
Is your preferred for one, andwhich one do you think is the
most challenging in terms ofthose spaces in film?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I'm gonna go with like the the cop-out answer and
just say you know, preferred islike writer, director.
That's like everyone'squote-unquote dream, um.
But I feel like I've developeda bit of a specialty for
producing.
You know, you go to film schooland like you learn about all
the fancy art stuff, but forsome reason, like you sort of,
(06:34):
yeah, there's a big deficit injust getting things done and
like that is actually what youneed to be doing, especially if
you, you know, not just paymoney to go to film school, but
like pay time.
That's a.
That's something that a lot ofpeople don't realize.
If you're gonna to take athree-year full-time course,
it's like three years that youcould have been doing something
else.
So you have to like make themost of those three years.
And you know, the best thingabout film school is like you
(06:56):
have free equipment, essentially, that you can rent, so you
should really just be making asmuch stuff happen as possible.
I think that's sort of where mystrength is, even though I
don't really do it too oftenanymore.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
And I think the connections as well correct me
if I'm wrong, but all of thepeople that you kind of meet in
film school are people that youcould potentially work with
later.
But also at the time whenyou're working with them, it's
good to, in a collaborativeexperience, you know, bounce off
of each other instead of doingeverything all by yourself,
which is pretty big as well.
So you said you went to filmschool and the sort of like with
(07:32):
the state of Australian filmsand especially indie films right
now.
Was it ever like a confrontingthing for you?
Like you said, you sort ofjumped into it after your HSC.
Was it ever confrontingthinking that the Australian
space isn't so large?
Jesse, was ever confrontingthinking that the Australian
space isn't so large, like whatwere some of the challenges in
terms of of making a film for anAustralian space?
And then obviously we had likeCOVID-19 as well, which would
(07:54):
have impacted the industry too.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
I don't think I ever got far enough to really give
you a serious answer withregards to that.
There is something like awkwardthat I've realized as I've kept
making more and more not makingmore, but like writing more and
more.
You know, when you, I think,when you come up in the
Australian circuit, everyone islike very quote unquote arts,
(08:16):
healthy, all the stories like,even even like in film school,
not just with regards to whatgets made, but in film school
you're surrounded by people thatare, you know, quote-unquote
visionaries or, uh,quote-unquote.
You know they, they wantstories that it's like, oh, the
human spirit and all this andthat.
(08:37):
But you know, most of themovies that get made especially,
but most of the movies thatjust get made in general, are
you know marketable things thatyou could see in a cinema.
Um, I think that is, it's a.
It's a sort of shame that wedisregard those a little bit,
because I feel like australiancinema sort of shoots itself in
the foot and even when somethingawesome does come out, it's
(08:58):
like it's not supported, becauseI think, you know, the
consensus is that, oh, if it'saustralian, then it's going to
boring.
Meanwhile we've got everyone atfilm school being like, oh,
like you know, these stories arealso like special, but, you
know, no one cares.
And if no one cares, then likewell, I can be able to make more
, and that's the catch 22.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Has that influenced your writing at all?
Because I know that somewriters do write to the market,
but other people write to sortof express a vision.
So has that sort of influencedyour writing, or are you one of
those people that really want tosort of express what you you
feel that you want to express?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
it probably did influence my writing in the
wrong way.
At the beginning.
It really hampered me, you know, especially when you go to film
school and you're learningabout like theme and you know,
like, what is your story saying?
And I've I've been lucky andlike I got caught up in that
stuff and then I got luckyenough to really surround myself
with the right kind of otherwriters, and you know that
(09:56):
stuff's all crap because at theend of the day, like, if you
can't write something that'sinteresting, no one cares about
what you have to say.
Like there's been so many youknow up-and-coming writers that
are like you know, he's myscript, I'll read, I'll give him
feedback, and then they'll belike, oh, but you know, but you
don't understand the story.
It's like, well, like Iunderstand it, I just don't care
because, like you haven't donea good job of writing and, to be
(10:17):
honest, like that sort ofblockbuster-y stuff where it's
like something simple, forexample, like, like you know,
there's a character in a hallwaythey want to get from one side
of a hallway to the other sideof the hallway and there's all
these obstacles, whether it's,like you know, furniture or
another character that's tryingto like like, stop them, then
maybe there's another characterchasing them.
These are the sort of the simple, you know tools of scene work
(10:40):
that you really need to get goodat if you want to make
something interesting.
It's like that's the basics andthe basics and people sort of
fuck go those because you knowthey have this like grand theme
and it's sort of like you'remissing the work.
You're missing doing likelifting like 10 kilos on the
bench press and you're goingstraight to like 100 kilos.
No one cares about your themeif you can't like write it in a
(11:02):
good way.
So yeah, hindered me at thestart, but I sort of got lucky
enough to surround myself withthe right people.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, and I think from following your like,
because I've sort of had a bitof a look at your Instagram
journal that you did forCrossroads, which we'll talk
about really soon but I like howopen and honest you were a bit
in the process through that andI think it was really like it
(11:31):
made it accessible, but it wasalso, I want to say it seemed
therapeutic for you to sort ofput it down in that way.
Chronologically, I think I sawone of your reels where you said
, on the down days or the lowpoints, on the days, you'll
you'll go and you'll look backat all of the things that you've
put on this journal forcrossroads and it will show you
how far you've kind of come.
So I guess my question is fromfrom my park bench to crossroads
(11:53):
, what's?
When you went to approachcrossroads as your, as your
short film that you were goingto do, it obviously took a very
different approach.
You said you wanted to diveright in.
Basically, can you explain alittle bit about crossroads and
a little bit about that processof transitioning from a project
that I think you said you castyour friends in and things like
(12:14):
that, to something likecrossroads, where it's a little
bit more sort of professionaland something that you want to
really dive into so my earlierprojects were, like you know,
very much the the fantasy oflike filmmaking where it's like
yep, just get your friends, solet's see what we could do and
like let's learn as well, andthat was great, like there were
great learning opportunities.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Like you know, I made some big mistakes with the
earlier films, especially ParkBench like the audio is horrible
, but you know I use the thoseearlier films as like stepping
stones and like as as a way tolearn.
Um, I didn't really like Isubmitted to a few festivals and
never got in, which makes sense, but the goal there was just to
(12:59):
learn.
And the goal with crossroadswas to like sort of reverse
engineer a career.
So, like I I sort of started atthe end with Crossover.
It's like I want money to makea feature.
How do I get money to make afeature?
Like I took a meeting withScreen New South Wales and they
said, well, you know, afterwe've looked at you know I had a
chat with them, like a videochat, sort of like I'm doing now
.
I told them this is, this iswhat I've done, this is what I'm
(13:20):
doing.
And they said, okay, like you,to get funding is to make a
short film.
You've got to hit these markers, you've got to get accepted to
such and such festival and thenyou'll be eligible for funding.
So now I'm the firstengineering things.
Okay, gonna make a short film.
I'm gonna make it like to thehighest quality as I can.
I've been writing heaps ofcrime, so like let's put in the
(13:41):
crime genre.
You know, all the mistakes frommy earlier films were like the
unpredictable elements.
All right, let's keep it at onelocation.
We're not going to even movelocations, it's going to be
indoors.
So like there's no, because withpark bench it was, it was
better to be a four-day shootended up being a two-day shoot
and then from that we went to aone-day shoot because when we
(14:02):
got to location the wind was sointense like I had I prepared
the audio equipment, we had likea blink, we had everything, but
the wind was so intense thatthe actors faces like you could
tell that they were just beingbombarded by a sand.
And like there's like a once ina year sort of a windstorm and
(14:22):
yeah, like that doesn't happenoften, but when you're renting
your equipment, when you'regetting like people to work on
your film, you sort of want tomake the most of it.
So I didn't want that variable.
So like now we're indoors andyeah, I just that's where I went
and I guess I wrote somethingto from there.
Like I wrote the script to thesetting and I wanted to get two
(14:43):
characters, because that's sortof like the minimum you need for
like something juicy, and itsort of just wrote itself from
there.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
To be honest, so when you, when you're writing
crossroads, you picked afamiliar genre, like like crime,
uh, that you sort of werecomfortable with at the time,
and then your location scoutingyou were.
You picked a single sort ofspace.
I guess it was an instance ofmoving parts, like keeping
elements within your control.
Would that be accurate?
Speaker 2 (15:07):
yeah, and that that was a big thing that I learned
from the earlier films,especially park bench.
An instance of moving partslike keeping elements within
your control, would that beaccurate?
Yeah, and that was a big thingthat I learned from the earlier
films, especially.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Park Bench, which was outdoors.
Yeah, I think all thosestepping stones really sort of
paid off into this final sort ofvision for you With Crossroads
as well.
You explained in your videojournal about the process of
casting and how you initiallywent for an approach that was
pretty open and then, when youclosed that and made it a little
bit more difficult, it was alittle bit more beneficial for
(15:37):
you.
Did you want to talk about whatyou've learned about casting
from your Crossroads experienceas well?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah.
So again, coming from likethose early days where you've
got like bright, wide open eyesand you know you think the world
is all sort of like flowery,you quickly, once you sort of
like corner yourself and you'relike because to make crossroads,
like I went back home to likework with my network essentially
, so I had limited time there,so I was like I had some big
(16:07):
constraints and that sort oflike I started out being like oh
, like you know, it's open toeveryone.
You know, I only need likethese basic things, like I just
need a headshot and you knowI'll look at your profile and
I'll figure out, like from yourprofile if you're good enough
and that, just like I startedgetting like I enough and that,
just like I started getting likeI had a female character and I
(16:29):
started having like, for example, like males applying you know
just ridiculous stuff.
That was like sort of wastingmy time.
I ended up being like all right, if you want to apply, like I'm
gonna put a make you put in alot more work, I'm gonna have
you like have a headshot, I'mgonna have you answer these
questions and, like you know, alot of people didn't even answer
(16:50):
the question, so it's like allright, like you don't even,
you're not serious, you're noton this level, because, like
you're not even following thosesort of instructions.
Like I need you to read thescript, I need you to do a self
tape, um, and like all thisstuff.
Like I know that actors hate allthe work that they have to do
beforehand, but it's like if I,if I don't make you guys do the
work, it's like I've got to dothe work, um, and I was just at
(17:11):
a point where, like I just Isort of just didn't care, like I
was, and the thing is like noneof these things really dictated
like what, like whether theactor would get the role, like,
like I wasn't going to be, likeoh well, that's it, you're out.
It's sort of just a thing oflike how committed are you to
this?
Because, like, I've had anactor pull out of a project like
(17:33):
on the day, and it's like Ican't afford any of that stuff
for this one.
So it was sort of just like atest to see how committed they
were.
And then, once they showed methat I was like quite responsive
to you know, getting back tothem and you know, organizing
like a proper audition,sometimes even like for my actor
, like I went to his house, likeI drove like one and a half
hours to his house to auditionhim and like I was willing to do
(17:56):
that because he had put someeffort in and I I knew that if I
, if it was, if it was right forthe part, then like why
wouldn't I spend that time?
Speaker 1 (18:05):
yeah, and that's that .
That's a uh buy--in as well.
If they're going to actuallyput in the effort to send you
the things that you want to orarrange a meeting with you and
meet with you, it gives themthat buy-in and it gives you
that confidence that they'regoing to apply themselves to the
project and they know thatyou're making something
authentically as well.
That was Shane Rodrigo, correct.
That's your primary actor.
(18:25):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, shaneRodrigo, correct.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
That's your primary actor yeah, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
What were some of the challenges in terms of casting?
What were some of the benefitsas well, of working with some
pretty experienced actors?
Because you had Shane Rodrigoand you had Leanne Mauro Is that
how you say her surname LeanneMauro Mauro?
Yeah, so you had a couple ofexperienced actors.
What was it like working withsome people that were
(18:48):
experienced in the field?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
basically, it was probably the best thing that
like I've ever experienced withregards to filmmaking.
You know I can like with myearlier shorts, like I I wanted
to use friends, I wanted tolearn.
I didn't want to like getprofessionals and be like hey.
So like I'm this new guy andlike I just need you to like do
what I say.
(19:09):
Like I wanted to like sort ofbuild myself up and it was fun
working with my actor friends,my non-actor friends.
It was fun working with likepeople at my level but they
really challenged me to, likeyou know, become like a way
better director and theyactually taught me heaps and,
(19:31):
honestly, more than any otherproject, like I felt like I had
people in my corner.
Like I feel like you know, whenyou're doing these like smaller
projects, you're always pushingpeople.
But and another thing, with likestarting out as a filmmaker,
you tend to cast actors that arelike in their twenties and you
know that's fine, like that'ssort of the stories that you're
(19:51):
writing about, but they probablydon't have all that much to
teach you.
So this was like me having achance to work with people that
you know had sort of gonethrough the ropes kind of bit
and who also didn't really wantto be messed around with, like
they didn't want their timewasted, and because of that I
(20:13):
felt like, oh, do I hear it?
Like these two people arealmost pulling me along, like
they're sort of helping me.
So I I learned apes just fromlike working with them.
We did a lot of rehearsals and,honestly, like that was
probably like my favoriteexperience of the film, just
like working with two phenomenalactors it sounds like it was
was pretty rewarding as well.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
And then with the like the, the set and the actual
sort of shooting, there was alot of things that sort of led
up to the day, like the day thatyou were sort of shooting all
the scheduling and things likethat.
There was a quite a few poststhat I saw around the shot list
and the scheduling and the calllist and things like that.
Can you talk to some of thechallenges that was in the
(20:55):
post-production of the shortfilm?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
With regards to the lead-up, it's so weird because I
went back to Sydney and Ithought I would shoot three
short films like while I wasthere, and you know that quickly
became one short film.
A big part of that was like meand my dob like trying to find
time for each other, oh yeah.
So that quickly went to oneshort and you know I regret that
(21:23):
there were some days that hewas free, that I prioritized
work and I realized I shouldhave just, you know, called in
sick, taking a day off, becausewe weren't really able to get
the shot list at 110 beforegetting on set.
We weren't really able to getthe schedule 110 and these sort
of documents like there's noreason that you should be able
to have them like set in stonelike a month before the shoot.
(21:44):
And what happens on everyproject is that, like the day
before the shoot, people arelike rushing around like oh,
what are we doing?
And it's like we, why isn'tthis stuff already set in stone?
Like we, when we get to set, weshould just be focused on
shooting, we should just befocused on executing, not coming
up with a plan.
So that was a bit of a shame,but it sort of worked out
(22:06):
because in my head you can neverbe over prepared.
So, for example, with parkbench, like I wanted to shoot it
over four nights, we shot itover one night and I was happy
with all the shots that we gotbecause I was over prepared.
I knew exactly what shots wecould lose.
I knew what shots, like, weshould take extra time on, get
extra takes.
I knew what shots we could justget away with doing one take
(22:26):
because I was over prepared.
And you know when the accidentshappen on set, that's when
being over prepared becomesbeing just regular prepared.
But if you, if you think you'regoing to get away with just
being regular, like a regularamount of prepared, and then an
accident happens, well you're,you're feeling screwed,
essentially, so we could havedone better.
But I think that's how italways is, like in the lead up,
(22:48):
like you can always do better.
Um, with the post-production, Ihad two weeks to edit it.
I sort of you know I wasleading simian.
I wanted to just get it wrappedbecause what I was going to do
was disassemble my computer andtake it with me and who knows,
maybe my the airline would losemy luggage, maybe I don't know.
So just said I'm finishing thefilm, I'm finishing editing
(23:09):
before I leave, and from thereit was honestly pretty smooth.
Like I worked with some like myday up.
He did the color grade, he wasquite busy.
I worked with a professionalsound mixer.
She was quite busy.
When they did what they did, itwas like wow.
I don't usually watch my, Idon't really like going back to
watch my own stuff, but I'vewatched this film like quite a
(23:30):
few times because I just Ireally like it for once yeah,
that's really good to hear, man,because when you put so much
work into something, lookingback on it, reflecting as always
, because we're always our ownWest Critter, can't we as well?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
when you're looking back at your own work, you the
little nuances, or the slightlittle thing that you might have
missed in a scene, or if thisover here was moved slightly,
like all those little things,because, yeah, you are so close
to the, to the project youmentioned before about your dop
and yourself, I think for me, Ihaven't really well, I've
underestimated the importance ofthe relationship between the
director and the dop.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
It sounds like it's really important I think any
relationship that's a goodrelationship is important and it
just sort of happens to be that, you know, michael is my DOP
considering we get the same namebut he's probably been my
closest collaborator throughout,like all my projects, because
we're just sort of on the samewavelength.
We've sort of always been inthe same sort of position.
(24:23):
You know, when he pushes, Ipull, when I push, he pulls.
We're just like we know eachother.
And you know, I remember, likeyou know, shane is just such a
particular actor.
He was like, yeah, you know, sohow are you and your DAP?
Because he's sticking back totimes where, like, he's in a
direct and DAP fight on set,which is not, you know, it's not
(24:43):
abnormal.
And I was like, yeah, look,we're great, like we.
Probably we will have a bit ofa back and forth on set, but
it's just because we don't needto, we can skip the pleasantries
, like sort of thing.
So it is really nice havingthat relationship with just
anyone.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
It just so happens to be that it is with my DAP and
you know, I wouldn't know how towork with someone else at this
point thinking about the, thepost-production of the film,
because I know for me likepodcasting, editing like this is
the fun part basically, butediting is the worst kind of
thing to get yourself motivatedto do and keep that momentum and
just keep sort of pushing alongWith your editing process.
(25:22):
What's involved in editing ashort film and what were some of
the drawbacks and challengesthat you had to to get the end
production that you're obviouslyreally happy with?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I would say the biggest challenge was trying to
watch it with a fresh pair ofeyes when, like that's
impossible.
You know, there was, there'sthis one sequence of cuts where
it's like, you know, in like twoseconds it's like four cuts,
five cuts.
And my, on my first run, like Ihad compressed that because I
(25:59):
had seen the footage so manytimes that the cuts were all
registered to me as like fluid.
But the challenge for me waslike how do I get these cuts
fluid for a first time viewerthat doesn't know what the next
shot is, whose brain isn't aheadof the shots.
So that was my first.
That was the most challengingpart.
But, to be honest, the rest ofit was pretty easy because,
again, just being over prepared,like the film was essentially
(26:21):
edited before we startedshooting, like I already knew
what was what it was going to be.
There were a few sort of happyaccidents along the way, like my
dvp turned three different shotsetups into one um, so that
dictated how the edit flowed.
But you know, again, like I'mjust, I'm just the type of
person that's over prepared.
And the thing about if you'renot going to be over prepared,
(26:44):
what you're going to do isyou're going to be like all
right, well, I need a, I need awide shot of these two people
talking.
And now I need an over theshoulder shot of the whole
conversation.
Now I need it.
From the other angle.
It's like, well, okay, that'sjust, like, that's just wasted,
like I don't know how long, butlike way too much.
If I know that I don't want theover the shoulder shots until
like five minutes into the film,the film, like we don't need to
(27:10):
do any, we don't need to wastetime with that.
So you know, being over overprepared like it doesn't just
help the day go smoother and andlike it doesn't just help you
stay ahead of schedule, but italso helps you just, you know,
be a much more consciousdirector and editor.
And yeah, I gotta say, like itwas, it's actually like a pretty
easy edit.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
That's really.
Yeah, that's really good tohear, because I know that
sometimes it can be a little bitof a bog down, but yeah,
because it went so well.
I think that some of the someof the things that you talked
about in your, your videojournal was the fact that you
you now sort of would approachprojects without a sort of level
of of fear attached to it, likethere was a little bit of
(27:46):
nervousness going into thisproject.
Did you want to explain that?
And then the process afterwardswhere you sort of let that go
yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
So, like I think, for every project, you you're sort
of scared, um, you know, uh, man, I hate to, I hate to get like
what's it called a self-help oneveryone, um, but I was watching
this interview with GeorgeSt-Pierre, who's an MMA fighter.
The way he breaks down thingsreally resonates with me.
And he was saying, like, youknow, there's this element of
(28:17):
fear where and he's trying tobreak down fear like, what is
fear?
Like, why am I feeling fear?
And he's like, well, the fearis coming because I don't have
confidence.
Why aren't I confident?
It's feeling fear.
And he's like, well, the fee iscoming because I don't have
confidence.
Why aren't I confident?
It's because I haven't preparedproperly.
So, like, how do you overcomethat fear?
You prepare, you know whatyou're going to do, you practice
your scenarios, you testyourself and then when you get
there, the nerves will wash awaybecause you have prepared and I
(28:42):
guess it's like you're notfacing the unknown.
You know what's going to happenwhen this happens.
You know what's going to happenwhen this happens.
You know what's going to happenwhen this goes wrong.
And I think, you know, everyfilmmaker is sort of sort of
does have a healthy amount offear.
But if I just if I go back toliterally every set I've ever
been on, the fear comes fromlike not being prepared and you
(29:08):
know this was the first timewhere my preparation met
expectations and because of that, like it's you know it's not an
unknown variable for me anymoreLike I know that if I prepare
in this way, I will get these,like I should get these results.
Now, don't get me wrong, ifthere's a windstorm, I can't
help that.
But the fact that I wentthrough like a project like this
(29:31):
from start to finish and gotlike great results like that,
that unhealthy vr has justwashed away because you know, if
they, if they got me to directlike avengers 10, like most
people are going to be like ohmy gosh, oh my gosh, whereas I
would just be like, well,avengers 10 is literally
crossroads, but like there's alot more scenes in it and it's
going to be like I don't know, abit under 10 times longer, like
(29:53):
there's not the only thingthat's changed is like the
runtime, but the fact that I cando one scene, which crossroads
was essentially like one scene,but the fact that I can do that
to like this level, that I'msatisfied with all the unhealthy
fear is gone now and everythingdoes look so professional.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I've seen the trailer that's available, that you've
shot as well and the actors do abrilliant job and the
lighting's perfect as well.
I think that that fear thatyou're talking about that's gone
.
It's learning through doing,which is like.
I'm a teacher by profession,and that's literally the best
way that kids learn as well isgetting them into this space and
actually allowing them to toexperience something themselves,
(30:33):
instead of sort of telling themhow it's going to be and what
they should know.
It's really like the best sortof sort of learning.
So I think from this project itsounds like that you've you've
got a lot of sort of takeawaysand a lot of things that you
could bring into other projectsand, I guess, a larger network
of people you could sort of talkto about different things as
well.
In your newer role, as you said, you pivoted into sort of
(30:58):
writing.
Do you think that you would goback to do something in terms of
filmmaking, directing again orsoon, or are you pretty
satisfied in the in the writingspace right now?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
yeah, I'm beyond satisfied with writing.
To be honest, if I did for therest of my life I'd be happy,
professionally or not.
But you know I I definitelywould be open to pivot back into
filmmaking down the line.
It's just that, like you know,crossroads was like six months
of, like you know, working likea laboring job and saving up and
then spending all that money onlike 15 minutes, less than 15
(31:37):
minutes, of film.
Actually I don't think I've gotthat in me again.
Like you know, I need, I needsomething else to happen, like I
need to, you know, get somefunding.
Or I need, like I need someoneelse to come and say hey,
michael, like I want to workwith you, like let's, let's do
something together.
But for me to just like carryeverything or almost everything
and like drag everyone elsealong and give up sort of six
(32:00):
months of my time, is like Idon't think I could do that
again.
And the thing is like I couldmake an even simpler film.
But I really enjoy the processof that collaboration.
Um, like I could shoot a filmall by myself if I wanted to,
but honestly that wouldn'treally interest me.
Like the process of that wouldinterest me.
I know there's a lot.
A lot of people say, oh, you'vegot to do everything yourself,
you've got to learn by doingyourself, and I get that.
(32:22):
But, like you know, thosespecial features that I saw on
those DVDs, like thosefilmmakers of the 90s, their
thing wasn't making films ontheir own, like that was their
thing, was like making films andcollaborating, and that's what
drew me into this in the firstplace.
So I would hate to lose that,but at the same time I'm not in
a place where I can do that tothe level that I'm happy with,
(32:42):
without sacrificing heaps oftime and money which I just I
don't have.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Yeah, and I can understand that too, because it
can take a lot out of you tocreate something like this.
It's almost like a I don't know, like a 12-week challenge or
something like.
It's just so intensive for thatshort amount of time and you're
running at this certain sort oflevel and then you know once
that's sort of over.
I guess that's my question foryou as well.
When this sort of wrapped andwhen it finished and everything
(33:07):
was edited and you watched thefilm for the final time, what
were some of the feelings thatyou experienced, knowing that
this was done and it was done tothe quality that you kind of
were happy with and werecomfortable releasing to the
public?
Speaker 2 (33:21):
It's just relief.
Like you know, a lot of people,a lot of people ask me like are
you happy?
Are you happy?
And like I don't know, like I'mnot happy, I'm just, I'm just
very relieved, relieved thatit's like of a good quality and
that it's finished.
But with that said, it's likeit's sort of still not finished,
because I'm again and thereason why I made the, the
(33:43):
journal, is because, you know, Ifeel like I'm at a level where
it's like once you have somesuccess at this level, you sort
of it's not in your bestinterest to share that success,
to share how you're navigatingthis, because there's so many um
, there's so many things thathappen that are unspeakable.
You don't want to say them andsort of tarnish not number one.
(34:07):
It's like you don't want totarnish what you're doing, but
number two is like you don'twant to tell other people about
this, because if everyone jumpedin on this, then like it's
going to make it harder for you.
So a big thing for me is like,once you hit this level, it's
like there's no information,like people are not forthcoming.
So I was trying, I think, witha, with the journal, was to sort
(34:27):
of share that experience andyeah, so.
So the thing is it's notfinished because I I didn't
realize.
But this whole film festivalthing is its own, like other
battle, and I'm just learningthat now.
So you know, I am I'm stilldoing marketing, like I'm still
like I'm doing these podcasts,like i'm'm constantly updating
the press kit, I'm emailing likefestival directors, I'm working
(34:52):
on a post art that's like ofgreat quality.
You know, being able to thinkabout it from a festival
director's point of view wasn'tsomething that I really
considered before.
Like you know, if you have likea subpar poster, most festivals
are trying to like raise theirlevel of prestige with your film
.
If you have a subpar poster,it's sort of like saying it's
(35:14):
sort of like me with the actors,like I'm not passing the
scratch test, so why would they,why would they put my film in
when I don't even have a goodposter?
If that makes sense, yeah, Idon't even have a good poster if
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Yeah, it's almost like it's not benefiting them to
have your film in theirfestival, even if it might be
good.
Like the poster is what sort ofsells it?
It sounds like the festivalgame is like a whole nother
ballpark.
There's lots of little minilessons that you sort of going
on through this journey, likeyou finished the filming, you've
done the editing and the postand now it's like marketing and
film festivals.
Are there festivals?
(35:46):
Are there any that you've sortof submitted to that you could
tell us about, and what was theprocess like for for actually
submitting?
Speaker 2 (35:50):
to those film festivals.
Yeah, and just just toreiterate, like there is,
there's a lot of stuff that I'velearned that I I'm not going to
talk about on the instagramjust yet, because the instagram
is meant to be like thismarketing thing.
So if, like a film fest, if afestival director goes to the
instagram and sees me saying, oh, like, these are the negative,
these are the things you've gotto watch out for with festivals,
it's sort of like, say, well, Idon't want this guy to come to
(36:10):
my festival because he's goingto talk shit.
Um, so like, I'm forced to likesort of stop being honest on
that until the festival run isover.
So I am learning, but I'm justI'm not able to share right now
publicly on that.
But yes, the process essentiallycomes down to one or two things
.
You're either going to apply ona on a festival's website or
(36:33):
you're going to apply on filmfreeway, which essentially it's
this.
It's this website that connectsto other festivals.
I haven't submitted to anyfestivals directly, because I've
realized that if you areprestigious enough to not use
film freeway, then you'reprobably not going to be open to
(36:54):
taking my film.
Not that it's like bad oranything, but like I'm not that
well like there's.
There's nothing else that I'vedone that's big enough to get me
into these.
So that level of prestigiousfestival, if that makes sense.
So it's basically just beingfilm freeway and that
essentially just comes down toyou uploading your film uh, you
know, putting a director's bio,putting information on your cast
(37:16):
and crew, a poster trailer,like you can put everything on a
film freeway and then youessentially just choose what
festival you want to submit toand you submit it.
Like you can put everything ona freeway and then you
essentially just choose whatfestival you want to submit to
and you submit.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
It's pretty streamlined, yeah, so that's
accessible to anybody who sortof has made or is a filmmaker
that is aspiring.
So what sort of tips would yoube able to give to these
aspiring filmmakers now, havingdone quite a few short films
yourself and being on a numberof like filmmaking sets and
being in the writing game for alittle while?
What's something that you'dtell somebody that's either just
(37:50):
starting their career or isjust sort of developed their
first or second film?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
so, yeah, let's start from the bottom and go to the
top.
Um, if you, if you, if youhaven't done any, even made any
films before, um, you need tojust get on set some like
volunteer, you have to volunteer, you have to.
When I first started like youneeded to volunteer, like it was
crazy to think that you'regoing to get on set and like get
paid.
Now it's sort of like shifted abit where it's like you're
(38:19):
crazy to think you're going toget on set, like you're going to
be able to get anyone on setvolunteering.
I, if you've got nothing, ifyou've got no experience on set,
like you're going to be able toget anyone on set volunteering.
If you've got nothing, ifyou've got no experience, you
need to volunteer.
You need to just offer yourwork for free, just to learn and
to network a little bit.
If you're going to film school,you need to be shooting
something every week.
It doesn't have to be a shortfilm, it can just be a scene,
(38:40):
but you need to.
The whole point of film schoolis to network and to build a
portfolio.
So you know, if you, if you'reshooting stuff consistently,
you're doing both of those Likefrom there, I would really just
encourage people to just keepactive in their network.
Like, if you've my thing, like,once I finished film school, I
sort of like I had my networkand I just thought, like these
are the guys that I'm going tobe with forever.
(39:02):
And you know, when I went backto make Crossroads, like I
brought on three people from mynetwork Like they were, you know
, my DAP, the camera assistantand my producer, my co-producer,
I should say but I don't thinkthey had made any narrative
projects since, like the lasttime we had worked together, so
(39:25):
like there was a little bit of agap with them, but everyone
else, like had just moved onfrom filmmaking completely.
So you really need to just youneed to constantly be growing
your network, because if you'renot growing it, it's it's
actually dwindling, and that'ssomething that I've noticed is
very important in writing, likeyou know, I dabbled in writing
(39:48):
for 10 years and I never wroteanything that was half decent.
I met three other writers thatwere sort of like on my level,
had my vibe, and in two yearsI've like, like I'm a pretty
good writer now, yeah, like, soit's important.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Yeah, networking I think is really important.
And networking I think isreally important and, like with
the writing space, I thinkthere's a lot of people out
there that can tell you sort ofhow to do it or lots of like
short courses that can tell youall the different things that
you need to know broadly.
But I think it's a lot aboutfinding what works for you, and
you said you know, finding thepeople that you sort of vibe
with what?
Finding the people that youvibe with what do you enjoy to
write?
(40:23):
Now?
Is it still in the crime vein?
Are you looking elsewhere?
What sort of things?
Speaker 2 (40:33):
excite you in terms of writing.
Now, generally it's alwayscrime.
It's just such a great way toput people in situations that
refuel truth, if that makessense.
Um, you know, sink or swim.
There's not many other genresthat are sink or swim, and the
thing about crime is like youcan, you know you could get
(40:54):
someone like walter white andbreak me bad just like the
average guy, put him in thislike really insane scenario and
then, like we're gonna see whathe's made of, whereas, like you
know, even action, all right,let's put this like special ops
guy in a crazy situation wherehe already knows what to do, and
that you know.
That's not like you know.
That's just not where I vibe, Ifind.
(41:15):
I find like my thing withwriting is like just putting
people in these sort ofscenarios that are way above
them and they're sort of notequipped enough to handle, and
it's like, well, how do youhandle that?
Now?
I think that is an element ofwriting that's really
interesting to me and becausethat crime is is up there yeah,
I think for crime as well.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
If you're looking at character, I think it also shows
such a vast spectrum ofcharacters because you know,
obviously you're lookingwhatever criminals you're kind
of looking at, but even theprotagonists in a crime sort of
drama is looking at differentaspects of humanity which would
be interesting to explore aswell, I'd imagine yeah, like you
(41:58):
know, the godfather is on oneside of the spectrum and like
breaking bad is on the otherside of the spectrum, like those
are Bad is on the other side ofthe spectrum.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Like those are two way, like two very different
starting positions, two verydifferent characters, but you
know they're still in the crimegenre, so there is a lot of
variance with it.
Like you can start with, youknow, you can start with like
the average guy who's like nevercommitted a crime before, or
you could start with like a mobboss, and yeah, there's a lot of
room between that spectrum forwhat you just said.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
So I completely agree yeah, and I think that's that's
what sort of draws me to crimeanyway.
Is this the, the character andthe characterization and the way
that that's put to screen ishow relatable is this person
that may be doing somethingthat's absolutely abhorrent, but
there is like a human aspect tothem that sort of draws you to
that.
Or then, alternatively, with anantagonist, with a protagonist,
(42:47):
is, you know, putting them likethis regular person that you
would absolutely relate to?
Putting them in a situationwhen it's absolutely unthinkable
and watching them do things inthat vein and then having the
audience sort of question thatas well in themselves.
So I think the relationshipbetween character and audience
in crime is really, really good,and I think it's also a really
good way to provide tension asthe story goes on, because, as
(43:10):
you said, the stakes are asingle swim or life or death in
a lot of cases.
So that's really awesome.
Man, do you have a favoritego-to crime TV show or movie?
That is just your thing.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Better Call always like just up there for me, you
know, and it's crime, like onthe surface it's crime, but
there's like so much of that,you know, fancy lovey-dovey
character stuff as well, likeit's the.
The genre just has so much roomfor that.
And that's another thing where,like a lot of going back to
like our earlier discussion, Ithink a lot of australians are,
(43:48):
like you know, reluctant toattach their thing to a genre.
But you know, better coursealways just such a awesome
exploration of character orcharacters, I should say, and
it's, it's in the crime genre.
Honestly, your last statement,just really, you said it
(44:09):
perfectly.
I'd just truly be repeatingwhat you said.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
Yeah, no thanks man.
Yeah, I just.
I really like the crime genreas well, and I think that it's
one that shows the true sort ofbase of all aspects of humanity.
So are you the type of personas well when you're writing, do
you are actually viewing thingslike that?
Looking at dialoguespecifically, because I know
(44:32):
that some people have said, whenthey're doing screenwriting and
things like that, dialogue canbe particularly hard to to get
and write authentically.
Is that something that you findas a challenge?
Speaker 2 (44:43):
um, big time.
I, to be honest, I don't thinkI've ever done it.
You know, dialogue is sort ofthe last thing you want to do
and it's it's sort of like don'tget me wrong like I'll write
dialogue as we go and like I'lltry to do a good job of it.
But, to be honest, you're nevergoing to do an amazing job of
dialogue if everything else is,like you know, perfect.
Um, and, to be honest, I don'tthink I've ever gone into that
(45:06):
point where I'm just like Ithink I'll just sit here and do
dialogue today becauseeverything else is ready.
It's like I just it's, it's anever, never ending battle.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
Yeah, looking at, this whole project in your
career so far, we usually sortof end with a with the most
valuable takeaway.
So from your, your experiencewith like crossroads or park
bench, or even in your career sofar, we usually sort of end
with a most valuable takeaway.
So from your experience withlike Crossroads or Park Bench,
or even in your writing sort ofexperience, what's something
that you would share as a mostvaluable takeaway for you or the
(45:33):
biggest learning that hasoccurred for you in the space of
filmmaking for you so far?
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Yeah, I think if I'm just going to get to something
that's really applicable, thatanyone listening can take away
and do, is just write somethinga little bit more mature and,
you know, cast two experiencedactors to pull it off.
You know, you can.
I feel like you know, when youmake it, like when you produce a
(46:03):
film, when you direct a film,everyone that comes on board is
coming on board for variousreasons.
Generally it's like to to getsomething on their portfolio to
help themselves out.
That's why money is so good,because once you pay people,
it's like all right, well, I canlike now I'm here for money and
the way that I get the money isby doing a good job for this
guy, not doing a good job formyself, but with actors, like if
(46:28):
you, if you write somethingthat requires actors that are a
bit older, because again, likecoming from the film school days
, like it's just like, oh yeah,everyone is like a hit 20 year
old and they're like doing 20year old things and it sort of
limits you like I cast adaptersthat have a wave of experience
and, for the first time, like Iwas really just sitting down and
(46:52):
like learning from someone elseand I never had that experience
before, like I sort of regretnot doing it earlier, because I
would have come so much further,so much faster if I just
elected to work with moreexperienced actors.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
So that's definitely something yeah, pulling out the
best in you as well.
I think is is what I'm hearingjust because they're able to
communicate with you what theirsort of intentions are.
What they're reading is withthe script, but then also in
that working relationship withyou, in that professionalism, it
sounds like it was a reallyrewarding experience.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
A hundred percent and like the way that actors break
down a script is like it'salmost like the best writing
education I got.
Like you know, I did.
I did a few subjects of writingat uni and, like the actors,
the actors know better than theteachers, to be honest, because
they have to.
They have to, otherwise theyjust say they're just going up
(47:46):
and essentially BSing, which,yeah, you might BS yourself
through like the beginning, butif you're going to be doing it
for so many years 10, 20 yearsyou're going to learn a thing or
two and you're going to stopdoing that.
So I feel like they actuallygot me to become a better a way
better writer, because you know,not just because of what you
said, but because they had a lotof questions and those
questions make you think andthey make you have answers and
(48:09):
they make you, you know, putthat in the script, at it like
next time, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
Yeah, that does.
Yeah, michael, thanks forjoining me today and I really do
appreciate it.
Can you tell our listenerswhere we might be able to find
Crossroads when it does release?
And everybody should also checkout your IMDb and your film
journal, which we'll link in theshow notes below so you guys
can all track Michael's stuff.
But where can we findCrossroads and when can we
(48:35):
expect it to be released forpeople to look at and see?
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Yeah, I would guess that in about a year I'll
release it online, becausethat's just how many festivals
I've submitted to and you, youcan't submit, you can't put it
online before you finish afestival run.
Essentially, um, so in about ayear, just, you know, go to go
to my Instagram crossroads filmjournal.
There's a there's a link treethere to my YouTube channel.
(48:59):
It'll be on that and yeah, Iwould, just, I would urge any,
any, really any filmmaker thatis, like you know, doesn't have
their professional career likeahead of them set in stone check
out the, the Instagram because,like, I went from the start of
the process and I'm stillupdating, like it's.
You know, I wasn't shy about,like, being forthcoming with my
(49:22):
mistakes and as, as we finishthe festival run, I will not be
shy about being forthcoming withmy mistakes and, as we finish
the festival run, I will not beshy about revealing all.
There's just such a big jumpbetween your first couple of
learner projects and yourquote-unquote big shop project
that people don't want to talkabout, and I'm more than happy
(49:43):
to talk about that and sharethat information because you
know it's.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
It's opening the door , I think, for people, but it's
also showing that it'saccessible.
Well, this is what it did forme, anyway, when I sort of saw
it, and also, again, thatforthcomingness that you said,
that openness, that honestyBecause, like you're a guy, just
you said that openness, thathonesty because you're a guy
just like myself, like anybodyelse that's out there, and
you're doing these things thateverybody looks at on the silver
(50:12):
screen, on the big screen, andit's endearing.
And it's also great to see thebehind the scenes for those of
us who like that sort of thingand the challenges that a
regular sort of person is goingthrough when they're doing what
they may be dreaming of doing orwhat they've thought of doing
or things like that.
So I actually I found yourInstagram journal like a really
good follow, so I definitelyrecommend everybody do that as
(50:33):
well.
It'll be in the show notesbelow, so keep going on it, man.
I'll be following you along.
It'll be good.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Thank you Likewise.
I really loved the episode thatyou recommended me it.
Thank you likewise, I reallyloved that.
Your your love the episode thatyou recommended me.
That definitely took a fewnotes from my writing.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
So, oh, yeah, likewise, yeah, jeremy Drysdale.
He was a good talk man, it wasreally good.
I hope to do more things likethis, and that's sort of the
purpose of our guest spots,anyway, is just to teach people
things that they want to learnabout in the space of film, of
fandom.
So I appreciate you coming onand sharing your part and doing
your thing.
Thanks for having me, noworries, and I'll see you guys
next time.
All right, thank you bye.
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