DragonHeart (1996) – Part Two: The fall of King Einon and Bowen's Heroes Journey. Nostalgic Fantasy and the value of Persistence. - The Fandom Portals Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Fandom Portals podcast, the
podcast that explores howfandoms can help us learn and
grow.
This podcast is part two of ourDragonheart Runs, episode 28,
part two, and in this episodeyou will find out all about
Aynan and Bowen and theircharacter arcs, including the
Spoilt King trope and the Hero'sJourney trope.

(00:21):
We also look in our Real Dealsegment about the acting, the
plot structure and also thescore, to see what makes
Dragonheart a memorable andnostalgic film, and in our most
valuable takeaways we talk aboutpersistence, and we also talk
about the difference between achildhood viewing of nostalgia
and an adult rewatch of a moviethat has definitely become a

(00:42):
cult classic.
We also got some fan mail thisepisode that we read out, so if
you are a person who would loveto send us some fan mail, make
sure you do so.
Our email is fandomportals atgmailcom if you have a movie
recommendation for us.
So if you want to give usfeedback, we would love to hear
from you.
So that email address isfandomportals at gmailcom.

(01:03):
We hope to hear from you and wehope you enjoy this episode.
Hello everybody and welcome tothe Fandom Portals podcast.

(01:25):
I'm here with Brash, as always.
How you going, brash Fadingstuff.
I'm buying a lightsaber.
He's buying a lightsaber.
He's scrolling the Timuaddiction plate.
Guys, he's buying one of thosedog vacuum heads that we were
talking about last week.
Guys, last time we spoke to youwe were talking about
Dragonheart, the 1996 now cultclassic movie that is starring
Dennis Quaid and Sean Conneryand also Dina Mayer.

(01:46):
It is directed by Rob Cohen andif you haven't already,
definitely go and check out ourpart one, where we go and talk
about all the CGI elements andhow they brought Draco the
dragon to life.
So if you're curious about that, definitely go and check it out
.
Now, dragonheart for those ofyou that don't know is a movie

(02:10):
about the last dragon and adisillusioned dragon slaying
knight who must unite to stop anevil king who was granted
partial immortality.
In this episode we're going tobe looking at some characters in
the name of bowen and iron andwe're going to be also looking
at our real deal segment and ourmost valuable takeaway segment.
But before we do that, guys, atthe end of every single episode
we always ask you to send usfeedback.
And you know, somebody, knowsomebody actually did brash.
We got some feedback Feedback.
Yeah, we got some Feedback.
We got some fan mail, so we'regoing to read it out right now

(02:31):
for you guys.
And if you're a person whowants to like this absolute
legend, send us some feedback,send us some fan mail, then you
can do so at our email address,which is fandomportals at
gmailcom.
Now, this person's name is Mikeand they're from Virginia, usa.
Ready One, two, three, hi Mike.
Hi Mike.
How you going, mike, virginiaUSA.
He writes to us and says I foundyour podcast in the last month

(02:53):
or so and I have since listenedto all of your episodes.
I found your discussionsinsightful and I appreciate the
wide range of topics.
I consider myself a pop culturegeek.
I love comics, tv games, movies, etc.
As a movie lover, I find greatpleasure in introducing people
to great, lesser known films.
In this vein, I would like tosuggest that you watch and maybe

(03:15):
review slash discuss, one of myfavorite movies, which is
called Suicide Kings.
It has an amazing cast,including Christopher Walken,
dennis Leary and a post-Roseanneslash, pre-big Bang, johnny
Galecki, to name a few.
I've often brought it up inconversations, but I don't think
I've ever met someone who hadseen it.
If you haven't seen it, I hopeyou'll give it a try.

(03:35):
Either way, I thank you foryour work you put into each
episode.
Your efforts are greatlyappreciated and I wish you the
best of success in your podcast.
Thank you very much, mike.
It is great to hear some fanssending us in some emails.
So if you are a person likeMike and want to send us some
emails, do so, which isfandomportals at gmailcom.
Can't thank you enough.

(03:55):
His suggestion of Suicide Kingsis definitely going to go on
our community watch list for ourCommunity Portals Picks episode
.
But yeah, I was just blown away.
We got some fan mail.
That is absolutely awesomebecause, yeah, as a podcaster,
sometimes you release this stuffand it's like sending it out
into the void to never get heardever again.
But we got one, so it's likelanding your first big fish.
Thank you, mike from Virginia,usa.

(04:16):
You're awesome, mike, thank you, thank you.
This episode we're definitelystill talking about dragon heart
guys and this is the analysisepisode we're going to be giving
you some deep dives on thecharacters, uh, some of the uh
insights, and we're definitelygoing to be rating it at the end
to tell you whether we thinkthis is a movie that is going on
our fandom portals on board ornot.
So we're going to kick it offwith our portals perspective

(04:38):
segment.
All right.
The popcorn perspectives is asegment where the hosts take one
character from the movie eachand analyze their development
and growth throughout the movie.
We express to our co-host howthis character should be viewed
in your own opinion and themeaningful connections the
character arc has made along theway.
So, brash, your character wasAynan, mine was Bowen.

(05:03):
Do you want to go first,because I feel like there is a
lot we could talk about in termsof Aynan.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yes, nice, I'll go first Aynan.

Speaker 1 (05:11):
He is played by David Thouis.
Yeah, difficult last name,difficult last name Thouis
Thouis.
It sounds like you're sayingLewis with a lisp, lewis, lewis.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
Lewis, lewis, yes, david, amazing actor, also plays
um.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Professor Lupin.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
Professor Lupin, the werewolf character from wow.
Thanks Ace, thanks Ace.
Um, yes, plays Professor Lupin,the werewolf character in Harry
Potter also, as mentioned inthe last episode.
Um, he was also in Legends aswell.
I love Legends it's like one ofmy favourite movies of all time
, but in the last episode he wasalso in Legends as well.
I love Legends.
It's like one of my favoritemovies of all time.

(05:48):
But, yes, aynan, the characterof Aynan, the character that is
so easy to hate.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
Absolutely.
I think that the best partabout him is how much you can
hate him.
Oh yeah.
Just throughout the entiremovie, even his younger self.
I think, yeah, that's where itall started.
Hey, because you know that itstarts off with, obviously,
bowen and Iron and having thatduel.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
And you can see he's a little bit like as much as
Bowen is trying to be like hey,if you want to be an awesome,
cool knight, you have to followthe code and everything like
that and be heroic and be niceand all that kind of jazz.
But straight off the bat youcan tell he's a little brat
Kronk.
I don't know what's his name,let's call him.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
Kronk, we know it's Vrok or Brock or something like
that.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Yeah, brock as soon as he rocks up and is like, hey,
man, we're at war and yourfather's gonna destroy this
whole entire village, he's like,ooh, bloodshed.
And then fucks and buggers off.
It's At all.
He's just a terrible, terribleperson.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
But then you see him.
He sneaks onto the battlefieldand finds his father who's just
got who?
Here's a nitpick, Pick the nit.
Why would the king, who'sleading this army, say it, ride
into an area by himself, with noother soldiers, just to get

(07:04):
mobbed?

Speaker 1 (07:05):
and killed.
Pure neomaniac.
I 100% agree.
I 100% agree, yes.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
If Brock should have sepulchred himself or some shit
because he failed as a knight?
Because who lets their king gooff by themselves?

Speaker 1 (07:22):
It's definitely a it's an underling job to go and
burn the houses of the peasantsthat you're now marauding.
He's like.

Speaker 2 (07:28):
You know what?
I'm just going to ride off bymyself and just settle.
I'll blaze all these houses.
You know what that's going tomake people come out Exactly and
then kill me because I'm bymyself, because I didn't bring
protection at all.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
But then from that we also get the first little
picture of like we were kind ofhinting at the fact that maybe
this guy's a little bit of abrat, maybe this guy's a little
bit boiled, you might say.
But after this sort of scene,when his father is mobbed and
tragically killed by thepeasants we see Einan just
become absolutely evil in myopinion.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
Goes for the crown.
The father's still alive triesto hold on to it.
He's like no, die, die, it'smine.
Give me the crown, it's minewhich begs the question for me.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
You know, bowen's been training this, this young
gentleman, this prince, for allhis life, supposedly.
Uh, and he and his mothereventually then go to beg the
dragon for his, his life and hisforgiveness and to say, yes,
he's a knight of the old codeand he's following the old code
and Bowen's teaching him the oldcode and he's such a good
person and he's such a goodknight.
But you can see that there isthat element of bloodshed in him

(08:31):
, you can see that he's brattyand from 30 seconds with the
character, we can tell that he'sa bad egg.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, 100%, but they still go ahead and and Dra, like
his bat, yep, and they're like,oh no, it's going to be good.
I swear to God, we'll make surehe's good.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
Swear it.
We'll make sure he's good.
Swear it.
He must swear it.
Swear it, yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
It's like, yeah, I'm going to be good, cool, but not
for me.
Here's half my heart.

Speaker 1 (08:58):
Exactly, and you know the actor that played Ayn
performing thing in that wholesegment and even for iron and
for the whole time, the worstthing that is performing in
regards and surrounding iron ishis wig.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
what an atrocious piece of headgear if, if you
want to make you hate someonehaving a really bad haircut that
just and like just seeing itmakes you angry, it's probably a
good way to set up a bad guy,because you just already hate
them just because of their hair.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
Yeah absolutely um.
One thing that was funny withme, though, is when those
characters were first introduced, the two characters of bowen
and einan.
Usually a way that um directorssubconsciously pitch you one
side or the other is they dressthe character that's supposed to
be evil in dark colors and thecharacter that's supposed to be
good in light colors, and whenwe first are introduced to these
two characters, einan's wearingwhites and golds and bowen's

(09:46):
wearing blacks and silvers.
So there's that sort of flip,and you also are introduced to
the scene where they're.
They're, you know, trainingeach other, but bowen's being
quite um, we'll say playful, buthe's actually teasing him, and
at one point he even like slapshim in the in the face there,
and he's supposed to be thiseducational figure in his life,
but he's really just humiliatinghim in this moment and it's
just like why did this kid endup becoming a brat and hating

(10:08):
everybody?
Oh, it's because everybody'sbeen shitting on him his entire
life.
But yeah, I think that wasreally interesting that they did
that, whereas they put the goodcharacter in lighter colors and
the oh sorry, the goodcharacter in darker colors and
the evil character in thelighter colors.
And I think that wasintentionally done, because
otherwise we're giving thesehints that einan's a little bit
of a prick, but we're we're notfully realizing it and we kind

(10:28):
of have to believe that dracowould believe that there is some
good in him, because otherwisewe'll be looking at this dragon
that's been living for hundredsof years and wonder what a
stupid choice he's making andwhy.
So yeah, I think that thathappening early on in the movie
was good, but literally like 10seconds after he leaves that
dragon's cave and he swears onthe old code that he will be an

(10:50):
honorable man and he'll dojustice to the heart.
That's what he wants to do.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
I want to build up a castle.
That's going to take a lot ofpeople, a lot of manpower.
I don't care.
Yep, Ah, okay.
Well, he's immediately justgone from.
I swear I'm going to be good toExactly.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
He's immediately just gone from.
I swear I'm gonna be good toyeah, exactly right, and I yeah,
I think he in that momentthat's when we're like, ah, here
we go.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yep, yeah, the complication has begun.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
He's already failed yeah, so let's go into a little
bit more with iron and whathappens to him later on in the
story.
Um, how does david continue toplay this character in a manner
that absolutely makes us hatehim?
I mean?

Speaker 2 (11:24):
mean he just doesn't change.
It's like he's a bratty childand then grows up to be a bratty
child, but just with more power, yep.
And then he has his cast ofgoons with him, one including
his I can't remember his name.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
Brock or Fenton Fenton, fenton's Jason Isaacs.
Jason Isaacs this was his firstspeaking and proper sort of
role in a movie and he does itamazing.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
He actually does.
He does it amazing.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
I love his character he plays a snake in the grass
really well, yeah, he's thevillain in the Patriot and he is
absolutely cutthroat.
That performance in the Patriotis 100% stellar from Jason
Isaacson.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
And there's Captain Hook too in Pan.
Yes, no, his cast of goons hehas with him definitely adds to
his menace.
Yeah, because Brock likes tohurt people and Arnon takes joy
in that.
So he gets Brock to hurt asmany people as possible.
He enjoys it.

(12:27):
Fenton plays to his ego, sortof ramps him up to do horrible
things, thinking that Aynanenjoys this, like taxing the
roads.
Yeah, aynan enjoys thedastardliness of it all, so
Fenton hypes him up to shoot thearrow to kill Kara's father and

(12:50):
Fenton's there egging him on todo it.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
Oh yeah betting him and gambling with him and things
like that too.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
It plays off of it and makes him even worse of a
person, because the peoplearound him at that time are
pretty much doing it to benefitthemselves, but in doing so,
just continue to make Ayn aworse and worse and worse person
.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
He's continually being validated in his poor
behavior is how you would say itin a school setting, in a
school setting yes, he'scontinually being validated by
the people around him and that'show you see bullies arise is if
there's a group mentality bythe people around him.
And that's how you see bulliesarise, as if there's a group
mentality, and they'recontinually just sort of egging
people and getting what theywant.
Basically, and being the king,he would definitely get exactly
what he wants, which is why hebutts heads so much with Kara,
because he obviously wants tohave her hand in marriage and

(13:38):
she's obviously very wellopposed to that for a lot of
good reasons and very, veryheadstrong and very determined
to thwart any sort of plans thathe has.
He's also not very bright and Idon't know if he's a little bit
just subconsciouslyself-depreciative, because I
remember a scene in the moviewhere he looks to Kara after you
know he's killed her father andhe says to her you know he's

(14:01):
going to take her and put her inthe dungeons and things like
that, and he says, you know,I'll have to think up a fate for
you that's worse than death.
And then in the very next scenehe's got her in the dungeon
bedroom, like you know, dungeonbedroom in a castle, okay, but
he's got her in the dungeonbedroom.
And in the very next scene hesays I'd like that he's an

(14:23):
absolute worm.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
Realistically, that is a bit worse than that.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
That is exactly a bit worse than that, I know.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
And the thing is it's such he's such an interesting
character in that when we seehim he's a snob as Brad getting
trained.
And then we cut 12 years in thefuture and him and Bowen have a
fight and he pretty much bestsBowen.
Yep, he goes from the kid thatBowen was training, that was

(14:55):
useless, to being able to gotoe-to-toe with Bowen Yep.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
to never finding victory in the dirt, to finding
victory in the water.

Speaker 2 (15:00):
Yeah, yeah, but that sort of like huh huh for someone
who is now became king andprobably, probably didn't really
have anyone who would actuallytrain him properly because they
wouldn't want to either hurt himor offend him for fear of
getting put, made a slave orkilled.

(15:20):
How do you get so good with thesword?

Speaker 1 (15:23):
yeah, no, no, I 100% agree with that, because he's
also very good with a bow.

Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, and with a bow.
I can probably understand thebow, because he probably goes
hunting and that's a big egoboost when you kill prey.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
He probably won't.
He's probably the best with abow in the movie after Brother
Gilbert.
Yeah, brother Gilbert, holyhell.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
It's like Robert Vincente, when he's got that
arrow, that the homing arrowjust always hits the target.

Speaker 1 (15:49):
Always hits the target.
But yeah, I think that he's,even when he is reintroduced to
the dragon Draco, and thatdynamic with Draco and Aynan is
very important for the movie aswell, because you know, Draco
says it.
He says he put his faith inhumanity because he thought that
this would be a way for hiskind and humankind to sort of

(16:10):
interact, especially, if you'rethinking about it as well, if
the dragon sort of saves theking, that's a very to a normal
person and a good person you'dthink, okay, well, that is a
creature that I can bestow somehonor on, that is a creature
that you know, we can have thisrelationship with, but obviously
completely forgets about thedragon of draco and his kind,
goes into hiding pretty much and, yeah, dragons are pretty much

(16:30):
forgotten about.
So there is that shame thatdraco would feel as a as he
trusts this individual and theword of the, the word of the
mother and bowen, and yeah, Ijust think that he's just a very
vile character.
But I do like what you saidbefore about how he does not
change and from the start to theend of the movie he's a very
vile character.
But I do like what you saidbefore about how he does not
change and from the start to theend of the movie he's a very
two dimensional villain, almostcartoonishly evil as well.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
I reckon he like from all the whole movie he is the
same, but this is where I thinksplitting this movie into two
would have been beneficial.
So once he learns of the dragonand learns that he's pretty
much immortal as long as thedragon lives, he sort of
switches up from being thatalmost cartoonish villain to

(17:13):
being a lot more evil andsinister.
Killing his own mother, yes.
Then capturing the dragon andgoing to war with the village.
It sort of switches up from himbeing this almost carefree
villain to being something alittle bit more on the serious

(17:34):
note.
He seems to just get moremenacing.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah, that's our transition into the third act in
the end act where he almostbecomes the warlord king, where
he gathers his forces, gathershis army, and he's like no mercy
.
He doesn't care if his men dieor if all of his people hate him
.
He just literally wants thethings that he wants and he
wants the conquest.
So he'll go and he'll burn theforest and he'll go and he'll
say scatter or die.
There's no unity amongst histroops, it's literally every man

(18:01):
for himself, but fight for theking.
And then you know, as soon asit gets bad he'll piss off and
everybody else will die in hiswake.
So he can be protected.
But and even, as you weresaying, you know being betrayed
in that manner by his mother whohired the dragon hunters, so to
speak, and him figuring thatout as well.
He really becomes malicious inthat manner and he says one of
the best lines in the wholemovie.

(18:22):
That's very, very quotable.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
He's like how unmotherly of you yes, how
unmotherly and in his voice too.
Yeah, like that, it's just,it's just so, it just hits the
right mark.
Yeah, because he doesn't.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
He doesn't really get to play on the immortal part of
the fact that he finds out he'simmortal because of the dragon
yeah, there's only really aboutI don't know five to ten minutes
of the movie where he's reallyplaying and banking and using
strategically his, his immortalstatus.
Do you think, like we weretalking about how he doesn't
change and he doesn't reallyhave an arc?
But do you think his arc isthat he just falls deeper and
deeper down that hole?

Speaker 2 (18:54):
oh I think like you don't.
It doesn't really seem likethat until the very end, and
then it's like, oh, I would haveliked to seen more of this
development.
Yep, yep, but you don't getthat chance because but yeah, I
think he's definitely.

Speaker 1 (19:06):
He is a simple villain.
You know he's evil.
For this reason, he'sdefinitely the king slash,
spoiled prince archetype whojust wants what they want the
whole time.
And I think for this movie itkind of works, because you don't
really need more complicationsaround that.
In a family friendly fantasyfilm, you need to know the
person that you want to hate andyou need to hate them for a
good reason, and I think that hedefinitely pulls that off.

(19:28):
So I think, yeah, I thinkGuinan's a very hateable
character, but I think he'shateable for Good reason.
Yeah, well, yeah, for the Rightreason.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
You're supposed to hate him, yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
All right, let's go on to Bowen Bow.
To Bowen Bowen is the exactopposite of Ion.
He's the antithesis of ourvillain character.
He is the hero and as a result,he kind of goes on a classic
hero's journey.
The hero's journey archetype isused a lot in writing.
It was made by Joseph Campbelland it goes through seven to
nine stages of a hero's typicaljourney where in the start of
the movie he's definitelyintroduced to us in the ordinary

(20:01):
world is the trope that it'scalled where he actually goes.
And you know you, us in theordinary world, is the trope
that it's called where heactually goes.
And you know you can see himtraining Ainen, and he's a
knight and he's very enamored bythe old code, he's got those
Arthurian values that we talkedabout and you know he's holding
these idealistic beliefs beforehe eventually goes into this
transformative state and theaction that transforms him is

(20:21):
basically Ainen.
His ward is injured and he hasto go and then, you know, save
him through the dragon.
However, ainen goes out and, aswe spoke about before, he's
immediately, you know, wantingto enslave the village.
But for Bowen, he doesn't seethat tyranny until he gets the
heart.
So he attributes the dragon'sheart to witchcraft and as a

(20:41):
result of that, that's hisshattering in terms of his
idealistic views and beliefs.
So he has to start going down anew path.
Or that call to action is wherehe's really trying to get the
dragon's heart with his motherand to save Ainen.
And then he's got thatshattering event where he

(21:01):
realizes that the ward he wasactually trying to protect and
the ward that he's been workingwith this whole time is actually
an absolute prick, yeah, yeah.
So, um, you know, when he, whenhe confronts einan, when he's
about to burn out kara'sfather's eyes, and you know, he
has that embracing moment wherehe's head to head with einan and
he actually sits there and hesays you know, uh, you know what

(21:24):
, what's happened to you?
You're bewitched, stop this.
That's when you can see that hehas that absolute turning
moment where his completebeliefs in the code or in the
order of anything is absolutelygone and he starts to walk onto
a new path.
He refuses the call and becomesa dragon slayer, which is the
complete opposite of what hischaracter was before.
These honor bound beings of oldmagic and old code vibes in the

(21:48):
dragon is something completethat he literally wants to
eradicate and destroy from fromthis world.
So he, he ends up becoming moreof an anti-hero than a hero.
And this was the interestingthing for me, because I reckon
his shift in into this part,like where he he's the dragon
slayer.
I think he me, because I reckonhis shift in into this part,
like where he's the dragonslayer, I think his shift after
meeting draco, which is anotherpart of the hero's journey,

(22:09):
meeting the mentor I think thathappened way too quick in this
movie and he, he really so heseems like a character that
really just wants to believe inthe old code but he's just been
hurt and disillusioned by it forso long.
And I think that once he metdraco and he actually had a
conversation with draco and theysort of bonded after being in
each other's mouths for so longand you know, um, yeah, the the

(22:30):
two days or whatever, or thethree days that they spent doing
that, I think that he sort ofthat's when he transitioned
again into actually taking upthe mantle and trying to move
towards, um, actually realizingthe truth about Aynan.
Because, yeah, I think for you,does he present as a as a hero
to you or an antihero?
What do you think about Bowen?

Speaker 2 (22:50):
See, this is where my remembering of this movie
wavers.
So I forgot about the wholefact that he went around and
actually killed dragon themiddle, the middle act of the
story.
Yeah, I, from when I was causeI hadn't watched it since I was
young my memory was that he wasalways befriended by Draco and

(23:12):
for some reason in my head,initially I thought Bolin was
the one with half the dragonheart.
And they went around and theydid the fake dragon killings for
money, yep, until they'recalled up for a higher purpose,
to defeat a tyranny.
When I rewatched it I realisedthis was definitely not the case
, definitely not, definitely not.
And like for me, bowen, I think, is a character I least like

(23:38):
yep, more so because it's justbecause I agree that everything
moved too quickly.
So I guess I understand hethinks dragons did it.
He starts killing dragonsbecause he thinks dragons did it
.
At no point was he like hmm,maybe I should stop what Iron's
doing.
Instead, I'll just kill everydragon because I'm angry.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yeah, and he was looking for the one, the one,
the one dragon that did it, andthen realized later on that if
he had done that anyway, hewould have killed Iron anyway.
But yeah, I think it and thenrealize later on, if you had
done anyway, we killed on anyway.
So, um, yeah, but yeah, I thinkthat, um, that that whole
middle act where he's, he'sgoing around slaying the dragons
, that's the one, that, that's,that's the bit.
That's a kind of off taste forme, because you know he's
supposed to be this old knightthat's following the code of
valor and, yes, he does throwthat away, but then he's, he's

(24:20):
changing his character yearsyeah, yeah, yeah, he's changing.
His character is that he goesand he hates dragons and he
wants to kill all the dragons,but then he immediately goes in
league with one to scameverybody out of money, and that
was not something that he wasever indulging in, ever, like he
didn't care about money.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
He'd do it because and then he did it to spite
Aynet.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, he's like.
Oh, he's like, he's like anyway to get the money from the
crown, yeah, he just says thatline.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
I've forgotten it exactly, but I think it's
something like it's not the pay,it's the pleasure yeah,
pleasure of Of actually findingand killing the dragons.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
So yeah, all the pleasure of killing dragons, but
when he's talking about takingthe gold he's like, oh, I don't
mind taking the gold out ofIron's pocket.
So are you still trying totrack down these dragons and
things?
For Ain's sake because it seemslike you don't like Ain now
either.

Speaker 1 (25:12):
anyway, the contradictory thing for me as
well is in the third act of themovie, when he actually goes and
tries to defeat Ain and raise arebel army against Ain, he's
literally raising the samerebels as he just conned with
this dragon ploy before.
Like he's going through and inthe three or four villages that
he conned he's saying come andfight with me and let's get the
oppressor, who's Aynan.
But the only oppressor thatthey really see is the guy that

(25:34):
came in and killed the dragonquotes, who didn't really kill
the dragon to be fair, though,there he didn't actually get
paid by trying to use the womanas the payment.
Yes, that's true, kara ends upbeing the payment, but yeah,
100%.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
And also is Bone immortal, because in 12 years he
hasn't aged a day he has notaged a day, whereas they even
aged up.
Brock, he was old and he wentgrey and old, yep and Bone's,
just like oh, I'm the same as Iwas 12 years ago.

(26:10):
And now I've got Kara here, whowas a child when I was what?

Speaker 1 (26:14):
maybe in my late 20s, 30s, yeah, and now we look like
we could possibly be the sameage Exactly.
Yeah, no, I agree.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
And he's like, oh, and now I might be in love with
this Kara.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah, I definitely got those vibes too.
You know, I think that thosesorts of things is why I do like
Bowen as a character.
But I definitely sort ofgravitate towards heroic
characters.
But he has a little bit ofmuddiness in the middle which I
think is supposed to replicatethe refusal of the call of
action and then him actuallygoing and realizing and crossing
the threshold into becoming thehero again.
But I just think it got toomuddy.
It was almost like they didn'thave the correct direction for
him or they didn't have a planto get him towards the end, or

(26:50):
they had the beginning and theend sorted in their brain and
the middle was just like let'sjust have some fun building the
relationship between Bowen andDraco where they can both go and
just play shark's tail 10 yearsbefore it actually happened,
see what I would have liked.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
I would have liked an Anakin Obi-Wan style of mentor
student where Arnon was beingmentored by this knight who
follows the old order, but ayoung knight Like.
Maybe they could have got likea younger actor.
So Arnon in that was probablylike what 10 to 12.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
10 to 12.
Like age, yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
And they could have had like a 19, 20-year-old, like
only a few years older knight,who probably is only a recent
knight, but a knight of the oldorder.
And as like his first sort ofknightly sort of thing is to
train the young prince who,because for a knight to be
training the prince it wouldn'tbe like a big deal, whereas if

(27:49):
it was like, say, a knight whowas like the king's right hand
man, that's sort of a big deal.
Knight, he's training the youngprince boy how to use a sword.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
I really like that, because then that would give us
reason to believe that Bowen isignorant enough to think that
Aynan was not evil.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
Whereas we're looking at Dennis Quaid playing Bowen.

Speaker 2 (28:11):
now he's supposed to be a seasoned knight.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
Yeah, having mentored Aynan for so long and us now
supposed to be believing that hethinks Aynan is a lovely and
beautiful boy, and it's just toofar gone.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
It could be like the thing where they were friends,
sort of in a way, so he was theteacher on.
It could be like the thingwhere, like, they were friends,
so it's sort of in a way, so hewas, he was the teacher, he was
teaching me how to fight.
But because they were so closerin like, because they're closer
in age, they could have beenfriends.
Yeah, and because he wasfriends and he's teacher and he
was a young knight like he, thatcould have been, like he could
have only seen his friends iniron.

(28:42):
And so when the dragon's like,oh no, this guy's got dark, he's
like what are you talking about?
he's my friend yeah and thenthat way, when, 12 years later,
david Quaid how he looks andeverything would be sorry,
dennis Quaid how he looks andeverything would be, would make
sense.
Make sense, yeah, that theylook closer in age, where,
because Dennis would then be, orBowen would be only like five

(29:06):
years older than both Kara andAynan, yeah like, yeah, there is
that sort of muddiness in themiddle.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
And then there's the, the mentor relationship that he
was for Aynan.
Um, he definitely then goes andhas like a student mentor
relationship with Draco and thenthat's sort of the heart of the
movie and I really like thefact that they become friends.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
But like the vehicle for that might not have been so
great it was really quick andfor someone who outright hates
will's been to eight outrighthate dragons to then become
going and putting a warm blanketon him and sharing stories
amongst the stars and likenaming him and things.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah, it definitely seems very, very quick through
that middle section, uh, andthen obviously it gets to the
end of the, the hero's journey,where the hero has to go through
the supreme ordeal, which islike it's Draco's sacrifice.
He has to basically kill hisfriend in order to vanquish the
world of the ultimate evil,which is Aynan at this point,
and he struggles to do that.
So you do definitely see areturn to form, like he returns

(29:59):
back to how he was at the verystart a knight of the old code
and an honorable knight.
And it's more epitomized in thescene we mentioned earlier,
with him being in Avalon and,you know, re-quoting the old
code lines.
He definitely goes through thatsort of transition, but again
that sort of happens very, veryquickly again and it all builds
up to, you know, the return ofthe hero, which is when Draco

(30:21):
goes to the stars and then Bowenis honored in a manner where
he's like a selfless knight andyou know, brother Gilbert says
Kara and Bowen led the army ofpeasants into an era of freedom
and prosperity after that.
So he definitely does gothrough this hero's journey
pattern with a little bit ofmightiness in the middle, but I

(30:42):
agree his transformation isabrupt and I also think at the
start he's very much motivatedby vengeance and revenge, as
opposed to an injury likejustice, like he's not trying to
serve justice as a knight ofthe old code should, or as
somebody who, you know, he's nottrying to correct an injustice
like he perceives it.
He's actually being veryvengeful.

(31:02):
He's going out and killing allof the dragons because one of
them hurt his beliefs.
Yeah, which is not knightly.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
No, not at all.
Yeah, the thing is, the wholething is set up.
He blames the dragon for Ironsgoing bad.
But how much does Bowen andIrons' mother do to stop this?
Because it seems like Irons'mother does nothing.
There would have been signsbefore he was that age that he
was a bloody prick yeah, butlike even, but even, like after

(31:34):
the dragon heart thing, he justlet him start slipping that way
and like the mother, like, yes,he is now technically the king,
but it's still the mother.
The mother still was like thequeen.
Surely she had enough, I don'tknow, power or something to be
like hey man this isn't cool.

Speaker 1 (31:53):
Yeah, it might be an idea to not, not, not enslave of
people exactly like we can dothis.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
Like it might take, might take a bit longer, but we
can do this the right way bylike hiring people and paying
them to for the work, um,instead of, you know, enslaving
a whole people.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
So yeah, I think he's definitely a flawed hero and
sometimes that works in a story,but he's just a little bit
inconsistent for me to to lookat his character and be like,
okay, like he's definitely goingon this, this righteous hero
journey where he slipped.
He slips in the middle but he,he comes back through.
But I think the way that heslips is absolutely converse to
how his character is represented.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, I think how they got from point A to point B
had way too many Details alongthe way.
Details, yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
Too many dragon slaying along the way.
All right, let's go to our realdeal segment.
All right, the real dealsegment.
All right.
The real deal segment is wherewe randomly select a criteria or
a lens to view the moviethrough and we discuss elements
with the intention of findingout whether it can be rated
positively or negatively.

(32:58):
Each week.
The names of these positive andnegative criteria will reflect
a fun element of the movie andwe will range the topics from
cinematography all the way tocharacter development, villains,
themes, score, all those sortsof things.
So if something is good thisweek, brash, we're going to rate
it as to the stars, to thestars, right, and if something

(33:19):
is bad, we're going to name it.
The oldest joke in the book,and probably one of the most dad
jokiest lines in the wholeentire Dragonheart movie, is the
peasants are revolting becauseit's revolting.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
Yeah, because they're revolting and they're also just
revolting.

Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah, they're rebels, but they're revolting.
So let's generate our firstpiece of criteria for our Real
Deal segment.
Okay, and we have generated upthe acting performances.
Did you want to start with thisBrash or did you want me to?

Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yeah, performances.
Did you want to start with thisbrash or did you want me to?
Yeah, I'll start.
Yep, go for it.
Um, I enjoyed the acting ofpretty much everyone.
Okay, everyone did an amazingjob, like I can't even say,
because for me all thecharacters were really good.
I just think maybe the storylet them down a little bit and
possibly a bit of the writing.
Yep, um, especially for pauldennis yes, he, yep.
Especially for Paul Dennis yes,he got a bad rap for this one,
absolutely.
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah, and I can understand why,because his character just

(34:13):
seems so all over the place.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
Yep, especially with his accent.
Yeah, like, at some point he'sa little bit Irish.
At some point I was wonderingwhy he was the only American in
a very British setting, and atother times I'm just like oh
he's turned his pirate on.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
He's being a pirate right now it's for the pleasure
but yeah, I think that giving megold.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
I think it's so hard to act to nothing, which is what
he had to do a lot of the time.
A lot of his emotional sceneswere pitted toward a cut out
like a 10 foot dragon's headmade from Henson Studio or just
simply two tennis balls or astick, and he was basically
given the hardest job and somepeople say that he did well in

(34:57):
regards to his job and somepeople said that he kind of
dropped the ball.
But I think that's also coupledwith the fact that some people
don't really like Bowen'scharacter and sometimes people
conflate the character and theactor together.
He's definitely my leastfavorite, but unfortunately
that's.
He's a big part of the movie.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
He is a big part of the movie and unfortunately it
is because of the way hischaracter is written.
I think it's a big part of whyit seems so not great.

Speaker 1 (35:25):
Yeah, I'm wondering if it's more fluid in the
novelization for the movie,because they obviously are
allowed to to add more in andhave more scenes.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
And then there'll be more.
It's like Lord of the Ringsthere's more detail, yep, in it,
whereas here it has to becondensed.
Yeah, a little bit, cause Ithink that's the worst part
about Bowen, because Bowen issuch a big part of the movie and
so much time happens betweenstart to finish.
But we have to see that in anhour and a half.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (35:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:54):
And I think you know we were talking about King Einan
before.
He is a very sort ofcartoonishly evil character, but
I think he plays that well,yeah, and his is just
straightforward, straightforward, exactly right.
Let's talk about Sean Connery'sperformance as Draco.
What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (36:07):
I love Sean Connery's performance.
I think Sean Connery is aperfect choice for a dragon.
I agree, he's regal in the waythat he speaks.

Speaker 1 (36:20):
He's even played King Arthur before.
He's played King Arthur and theScottish accent and the
Scottish dialect that he has avery recognisable voice but also
very regal balances that humourand wisdom really well.
And the way that they expresshis face on Draco is just like
it's almost like he was on thescreen.
You know he was good.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, 100% Patrick Stewart, who voiced the other
Dragonheart movies.
They always pick someone who'sand I think this is a great
choice.
They always pick someone whosevoice is either sort of unique
or just that like patrickstewart, like recognizable
recognizable but he's also verylike um.

(36:56):
If you've watched star trek andhe's like so, it's very regal.
His voice has that age andwisdom to it.
Yep, patrick stewart's has thatum sort of elegance and that um
importance and, like the like,that dignity to it.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
Yep, yeah, it's almost.
He embodies this, uh, thisnobility, and for a fantasy
setting, I feel very brave whenI hear sean connery's voice.
I guess is one way to thinkabout it as well, and I, as
we've said before, I love how heswitches it up between his.
He can be extremely ferociousand angry, as a dragon should be
, because they are a wild andferocious creature, but they've
also got this sentimentality andsoftness and the fantastical

(37:39):
sort of fantasy lore keepers inthat sort of space, and Sean
Connery does all of that interms of the way that he sounds
when you hear his voice.
If he was actually alive now, Iwish that he would do like
sleep stories for the Calm app,because I would listen to that
all day.
Yes, you're drifting off tosleep.
Sweet dreams, my pretty.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
I just yeah, but yeah , and that's the thing he brings
to like the voices of things,unlike Patrick Stewart and John
H, the thing he brings to likevoices, the voices of things, um
, unlike patrick stewart andjohn hurt, he has that one where
.
So patrick stewart being angryin a dragon's voice, like dragon
, I don't, I couldn't reallypicture it, yeah, whereas sean
connery, I can picture him beinga ferocious dragon and then I

(38:21):
can also picture him being sortof, um, that soft, kindhearted
wisdom in it and he sort ofbrings that duality, whereas
like, say, yeah, john Hurt, Ican see him like even in the
Merlin show, like his dragon ismeant to be very like
knowledgeable and that helpingout Merlin.
Yeah, there was a few timesthere where he gets angry, but
it just doesn't really have theimpact.

Speaker 1 (38:42):
He was 100% the draw card for this movie.
I think when they were lookingat casting somebody, they knew
it had to be somebody with arecognizable voice.
They knew it had to be anA-list actor because it also
gave authenticity to what theywere doing.
They were doing somethingexperimental.
They were working withtechnology that had never been
trialed, so if somebody wasgoing to jump on board it had to
be an A-list actor that peoplewould come to the cinema to see

(39:02):
Especially, come to the cinemato see Especially fantasy,
exactly.
And who better than SeanConnery, who had dipped his toe
in the genre before, who hasthat professional atmosphere
towards his acting and,according to sources as well, it
did also say Sean Connery wasvery enthusiastic to appear in
this movie because it was sortof cutting edge using different
sorts of technology and, as Isaid before, he's very happy

(39:25):
about the acting requirements ofthe job.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
He never had to go outside of the studio.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah, exactly so I think.
Yeah, he definitely pulled itoff.
Another person I want tomention before we rate this is
Caro, who's played by Dina Meyer.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (39:39):
Very famous for playing Diz in Starship Troopers
, I think for her in 1996, shewas a very, very, very good
portrayal of a female warrior onscreen.
Director Rob Cohen said that heneeded to cast somebody who
could believably wield beauty,you might say, where they're
sort of slender and feminine andthings like that.
But I think they went the rightdirection with Kara in terms of

(40:11):
her warrior nature but alsolike the heart that she brought
to the movie as well.
I think she did good and it'sredheads yes brave like, really
brave, Like any sort of.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
I think the only thing I would have liked more is
if she had some sort of likeScottish accent slightly yep,
yep.
With the redhead Scottishaccent I could be like 100%, be
like damn, she's automatically awarrior to me in my mind.
Yeah, yeah, see, and then, butit also, it's not a long again,
it's so squished and condensed.
But there is that part where sheis, the little bow and arrow

(40:48):
showing her how to wield twoaxes.
Yep, and you can see at thestart of the house she's like
pulling a bit, like hitting himwith the flaccid blades, not
sort of getting the strikes.
And then Bowen's like you'remaking it too difficult for
yourself, fully mansplaining.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
Yeah, mansplaining.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
You're making it too difficult for yourself by just
flailing around and trying to beall like suave and tricky and
shit.
Just be like you just need tosurvive.
You need to kill and surviveand it's like, just do it simply
because you can get yourselfkilled otherwise.
But then, yeah, she, in her ownright, is so.
I wish they had made her alittle bit more warrior-like,

(41:26):
because when she gets captured,she still becomes the damsel in
distress again.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
She does, yeah, she does play that tropes on
occasion too, and you knowthat's very common during the
90s and that's obviouslysomething that movies are trying
to sort of step away from now.
But Does she kill?
Yes, brock Brock.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Yes, and I think that was fucking amazing, His last
words.

Speaker 1 (41:45):
I noted this as well his last words were a girl, a
girl, yeah, and he says it twice.
He's like a girl, a girl.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
So I think they definitely the fact that he got
killed by a girl.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
they knew what they were doing but her acting
performance in that totallybelievable, as the fact that she
was absolutely repulsed by him.
Because how could you not bewhen?
They're wearing a wig like thatso I think she did a good job

(42:14):
too.
Let's give our final verdictson this one.
Is it to the stars or is it?
The peasants are revolting.
What do you think?

Speaker 2 (42:21):
I have to say To the Stars Yep, with a slight
Revolting Bowen, revolting Maybe, just a, you know, to the Stars
revo.

Speaker 1 (42:31):
Yep, yep, yep, I like that.
I'm probably exactly the same.
I think it's a To the Stars forall of the characters, boosted
very much by Sean Connery'svoice performance.
I think the only downside to itis Dennis Quaid's performance
as Bowen.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
I think, uh, yeah, that's probably the only more,
not so much that he's aboutactive.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
I think it's just, unfortunately, how his character
is written all right, let's seewhat is up next on our
generator.
All right, so it's come up withthe plot structure and the
analysis and we kind of wentthrough this one.
We're talking about bowen andalso iron, and so we might just
touch on it briefly.
I think this definitely has athree-act structure.
There is the start and thebeginning, where we obviously

(43:12):
get introduced to all thecharacters in the world, and
then in the middle it gets thatlittle bit muddy that we talked
about and then towards the endit it starts to pick sort of
back up and sharpen.
Uh, but those transitionshappen very, very quickly.
So I think for the structurethere's also quite a number of
holes, like we were talkingabout before.
That definitely served to movethe story along, most notably
the king writing off on his own,and then also towards the end,

(43:36):
when everybody's convenientlyplaced in the right time and the
right place to go and rescueDraco, and then also the
absolute story element where youknow King Einan's defeated and
destroyed, so thereforeeverybody that's in his employ
immediately disappear.
There's no other revoltingafter that or no competition

(43:56):
after that.
It's just like a convenientsort of plot device.
So I think for me it's got thisweak structure but it does have
some moments of emotional core.
I think that is definitely thestrength of the movie, where
that emotional core sits betweenbowen and draco and you know
that epic send-off at the end.
I will talk about that because Ias a kid I cried and even when

(44:16):
I was watching it recently, as a35 year old man, like I get
this thing where I get tinglysand like goosebumps and stuff
whenever I hear that soundtrackand that To the Stars, and I
think that ending was reallywell paid off and that just is a
testament to Rob Cohen'sdirection in terms of how to
finish a story.
So I think for me, I think as aconsistent sort of approach,

(44:38):
I'm probably going to have tosay it's the Peasants Are
Revolting for the story.
For me, what about you?

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Yeah, I have to say the same.
So what I thought Dragonheartwas in my head was not.
I rewatched in my head thestory made sense.
The overarching story, yeah, Iget it.
Yeah, the idea is good, yeah,but the bits and pieces in
between it just make it makelike, yeah, the whole middle of

(45:04):
that movie I was sort of likegoing that doesn't make sense.
Yep, that doesn't make sense.
Yep, that doesn't make sense.
I'm like you.
You just deathly hate thesepeople or hate these dragons.
Yet you're gonna be friendswith one.
Wait till it scars down.
You're meant to really hatethese things and then, when you
find out that it's a dragon withhalf the heart, you're like, oh
, okay, yeah just brushes overthat fact and it's like, yeah,

(45:29):
my thing with that is he.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
He spoke to this dragon in the cave when it was
giving iron in his heart how doyou not know the voice,
recognize the voice and also howmany of the dragons that he is
killing is speaking to him.
So how many does he have alittle conversation with?

Speaker 2 (45:41):
um, I don't know how that that's a bit of plausible.
And if he's trying to find theone that, like that, has the
heart but he kills these dragonsdoesn't get no dragons can talk
because he's talked aboutbefore.
He doesn't get any informationoff of them, he just kills them.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
He just kills them and it's like, oh, maybe he
checks afterwards and looks tosee if they've got half a heart
or not.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
Yeah, Cut out the heart and see if it's there.

Speaker 1 (46:01):
All right.
So what are you giving this forthe?

Speaker 2 (46:02):
Oh yeah, peasants are revolting.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
All right, very good, so we're in agreeance of that.
All right, a musical score thatis produced by Randy Edelman, I
believe, and to me I'm going tosay it right off the bat this
is to the stars.
I have been listening to thisin my car for the last two days.
As you know, I am a lover oforchestral music.

(46:27):
I think that when we'resupposed to like, for example,
bowens, I think that the scorefor Bowen does a better job of
portraying his character thanthe character does.
because you know there's thatsort of playfulness and that
knightly sort of virtue throughthe start, where it's kind of
the timpani orchestra sort ofplaying, and then when it gets
to the really gravity-filledpart, that's that brave, honour

(46:48):
and code-filled.
Knight Draco's theme that playstowards the end when he's
flying off into the stars, justpacks you with emotional
resonance and that's exactlywhat a film's score should do.
it should be something thatguides the emotionality of the
film and you know we talkedabout highlight the yeah,
highlight the moments exactly wetalked about, like what moments
you should feel something inand what moments you should not
feel something in and, in thatway, what you should be feeling.

(47:10):
So we talked before about howthere was.
There's that line that I saidbefore where we remember how
movies make us feel, not whathappens in the movie, and when
we remember what makes, likewhat parts of a movie makes us
feel a certain way.
It's always coupled with asoundtrack element or a musical
element, and I feel like this isprobably the best part of this
movie for me, apart from SeanConnery voicing the dragon.

(47:32):
The score for me is fantastic.
A couple of nights this week Ifell asleep to the finale
soundtrack and just because itwas so, it's so beautiful and
it's so just resonant of thestory and it takes me to like a
fantasy place and it fills mewith feelings of nostalgia from
going to the movies with mygrandmother.
It's just that's what musicshould do.
Yeah, so for me this is a verymuch and very strong to the

(47:53):
stars.
What about you?

Speaker 2 (47:54):
um, yeah, no, I'm the same to the stars.
Some of my favorite ones arewhen the botched dragon killing
happens and he falls into thelake and then they start the
chase between the cannibalvillagers and the rest of them
and it's sort of that cat andmouse sort of playful, sort of
trilling sort of stuff.

(48:16):
And like my brother Gilbert'slike running around um trying to
like persuade them not to do itand like that, just the backing
music to that is just yeah,love that kind of shit and um,
especially the music played whenBollandre doing his yes, his
oath.
His oath.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
Yeah, really good and resounding and like full of
gravity in that moment as well,like you can tell that that's,
that's a really powerfulcharacter.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
Yeah, like you can tell that that this is his, like
this is his final form yes, yes, yeah, exactly, that's a good
way to put it.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
So, yeah, I think, I think that the, the is
absolutely just to the stars forme.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
Yeah, definitely to the stars.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
All right, that is the end of our Real Deal segment
.
Now we're going to move intoour most valuable takeaways.
All right, so our most valuabletakeaways, where we discuss the
most important thing we learnedfrom the media that we have
watched.
It could be something thatextends our knowledge or
something that we can apply toour life.
It can be as simple as a pieceof dialogue that stuck with us,

(49:17):
or a thematic and moral lesson,or a technical piece of cinema.
I might start with this one,the thing that I was trying to
pull like a moral lesson fromthe movie, and I really couldn't
get there, because I think themoral lessons I was trying to
find were coming from Bowen'scharacter, and he's just too
scattered for me.
So I think the thing thatintrigued me most about this
movie was the fact that there isthat massive difference between

(49:38):
the nostalgic childhood viewingand the reality of the rewatch.
So for me I think you know thereasons I tried to look at the
reasons why I absolutely lovethis as a child, and it was.
It was because, you know, therewas that hero's journey for
Bowen.
There was somebody that I knewwas the good guy and somebody
that I knew was the bad guy andthat is very good for a child
watching a movie.
You know I have somebody toback and I have somebody who I'm

(49:59):
supposed to hate.
There is also a wise and very,extremely lovable dragon, to the
point where when I was watchingthis usually in movies like
this, I do turn them off when mychildren walk in the room, but
when, like, draco was on the TV,my son was absolutely enamored
by this dragon and my daughtercalled it a ra, because that's
what she calls dinosaurs.
So it's like it's thatenamoring, magical thing and for
somebody as young as you knowsix, for me, when I watch this

(50:22):
and you're seeing a talkingdragon on the screen, it's
magical and it's it's reallyjust pulls that sort of mythical
vibe from it.
And I think there is also somevery clear moral lessons in this
movie as well, which is why ithits so nostalgically.
You know, there is the honor ofthe knights, there's the
corruption of Aynan and the king, there is the sacrifice that is

(50:42):
played by Draco and there'sjust that good and evil in a
fantasy sort of setting in thestory.
And then also the CGI at thetime absolutely spectacular.
Now, like, probably not so much, but at the time it was
revolutionary and spectacular, Ithink it was.
Now, looking at it, you're verycritical and you're looking at
it through a very critical lens,having watched lots of movies

(51:08):
from then on.
But, as I said before, I stillfelt at the ending the same way
I felt when I was a kid, when Iwatched this, and that's what
movies are supposed to do.
So for me, my most valuabletakeaway is the fact that
sometimes, sometimes when you'rewatching a movie, I feel like
that sometimes seeing a perfectfilm isn't the best technically.
Sometimes a perfect film foryou is like a meaningful one, or

(51:29):
one that shaped yourimagination, or one that really
pushed you into storytelling.
And you know I've done aDungeons and Dragons podcast.
I've loved fantasy all my life.
This has influenced me, likethis dragon movie in 1996 with
Sean Connery, with shonky CGIand a really scatty hero played
by Dennis Quaid.
Like it influenced me.
And it's not the best movie,but it's still one that I love.
So that's why I found it reallyhard to rate, which we'll get

(51:50):
to very soon.
But my most valuable takeawayis that is that you know,
sometimes a movie has flaws, butan imperfect film can leave a
lasting impression.
Perseverance, love it, so getthrough this movie even though
it's bad um.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
I think perseverance um plays a big part in pretty
much all of the characters inthis.
So cara caras is to um.
Even though all of her peopleare enslaved, her father's
enslaved, she still tries to getpeople moving, to get them to
rise up to stand up forthemselves, even when her father

(52:26):
is killed.
She then still, instead of sheperseveres.
She perseveres and keeps going,tries to kill Iron and gets
captured, escapes, tries to findsomeone else who can help her
build an army to take on iron.
And she keeps going, even bowen.
So there's a line which I foundin the movie where bowen says

(52:46):
to draco I no longer try tochange the world, dragon, I just
try to get by in it.
And draco says yes, well, it'sbetter than death, I suppose.
And Bowen then has a shot atDraco with oh is it?
I should think you welcomeddeath.
You know the last of your kind,all your friends dead, hunted,
wherever you go.
And then Draco, do you delightin reminding me?

(53:08):
Yes, not, I do long for death,but fear it.
And then Bowen says why, asidefrom your misery, what's to lose
?
And Draco's like my soul, yeah,but I I feel like like both of
those guys in that moment, likethey're both just trying to get
by and the like balance had hisworld shattered, is like his

(53:30):
oath is dashed yeah, he's puttrust in somebody and it was
turned out to be a shitty ideash idea.
And now the person who he wasmeant to help and meant to lead
to be a good person and a goodking is doing the complete
opposite and, as a failure, hisonly motivation now is just to
get by but keep going.
Because there's just somethingin the back of his mind that

(53:55):
he's like no, you can't justgive up, you've got to keep
going.
And then eventually, that'swhen he like, meets Draco and
then eventually meets Kara, andeventually they rise up and
eventually they right the wrong.
That happened years ago.
And the same with Draco.
Like, yeah, like, as Bond said,like all your, your whole
entire race is dead.
I've killed them all, yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
Um is dead.
I've killed them all.
Yeah, um, you've got nothingleft to live for.
He's like, yeah, it's true, buthe's like what are you doing?
Because I fear it, I, thisstuff I can live for.
There's like his existence hasmeaning, not just because he's
alive, but also because, like heis the last one, he, I am the
last one.
Uh, I do, I do, um, but yeah, Ithink that's a really powerful
quote that you pulled out there,because it shows both of those
characters connecting on areally emotional level.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
That couldn't be more different, really, and both of
them having that united view ofpersevering through a very tough
time yeah, because both both ofthem at that time realistically
don't have anything to live forand they don't have anyone and
they don't have anyone live for,don't have anything to live for
, but they're still both willingto fight tooth and nail to stay

(54:58):
alive when they both fight eachother.
They've got like.
They've realistically gotnothing like.
For 12 years, balan's beenchasing his tail trying to save
Aynan from something that hereally honestly couldn't save
him from, and Draco's the lastof his kind and he's a male.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
Yep, so there's no future prospects.
No more unless they can becomea seahorse Until you watch
Dragonheart New Beginning True,true, true, true and there's a
secret baby.
Yeah, there's a secret baby.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
But yeah, and they've both got really nothing going
for them, but they still fighttooth and nail to survive each
other.
And then eventually they'relike, oh man, we've got friends.
And then it's like, hey, asyour friend, you need to kill me
, yeah, and that sort of bringsin that two people that have got

(55:46):
nothing coming together tocreate a bond and then
unfortunately, at the end whichmakes it so powerful having to
sever that bond for the good ofmankind, yeah, that bond for the
good of mankind.

Speaker 1 (55:56):
Yeah, and yeah, I think that that severing comes
at the like the sacrifice of theself but obviously the
betterment of everybody else,and I think it also those two
characters both believed thatthat was the right thing to do
because of, even though theywere so different, as we said,
they were drawn together throughthis perseverance, but they

(56:16):
also had a shared vision of theold code, Him being a creature
of the old code and him being aknight of the old code.
Yeah, I think that that's areally good takeaway in terms of
perseverance, because both andall characters in that movie
definitely exhibit it.
Good job.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
Brash, I do want to say that scene when he renews
his oath when I was watching itand then when Draco comes back
out for me for some reason, Ithought that Draco was saying
the voice, saying the voice.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
I thought that as a kid yeah, as a kid, I thought
that too.
And then I found out it wasactually like the voice of.
King Arthur.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
Yeah, in the commentary it is the voice of
King Arthur but I thought forsure, for some reason I thought
it been Sean Connery as his KingArthur character.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
His might defends the weak.
No, we would have known.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
Yeah, for some reason I thought it was him, but I
thought he was downplaying hisaccent in it, but I still
thought he was the one voicingit.
All right, let's rate it.

Speaker 1 (57:10):
Okay, brash, this is the fandom portals on a board.
This is where we rate ourmovies and place them on our
letterbox on a board.
This is where we rate ourmovies and place them on our
letterbox on a board.
The board can be followed andtracked on letterbox at fandom
portals.
Uh, so far, the leading movieis the crow, which has an
average of 4.25 from Brash andmyself's rating.
Uh, we both give this movie ascore out of five and we take
the average to see where it willsit.

(57:32):
So, as I said, this is a veryhard watch for me, or a hard
rating for me, because you'rereally picking.
I'm picking myself whether I'mgoing to rate a movie highly
because it has made me feel alot and I have a lot of
nostalgia attached to it, orwhether I'm going to give it a
realistic score in terms of itstechnical how it actually holds
up.
How it actually holds up.

(57:52):
That's what I'm struggling with.
I was going to say I'll let yougo first.

Speaker 2 (57:59):
Sorry, two and a half okay because I think the two
and a half is purely the um,like most of the actors and
acting, the score and um, how.
Even though it's it's rough,the visuals are still, for that
time, really good.
The story for me is what let itdown.

(58:19):
There are good story beats,like the ending really nice.
The start, it was all right.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
Bits and pieces in the middle were good, yeah,
moments of heartfelt and awesomeand awesome.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
Draco singing good the fake killing yeah, Risen up.
Kara good Falling into themarsh good yeah.
Rizanuk Kara Good Falling intothe marsh Good, good, yeah.
But there's so many other partswhere I was like, for me it's
just forgettable, and I thinkthat's why the story in my head
was different to what I remember, because I think so, yes, two
and a half for me.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
All right.
So if I was to rate this withmy heart, I would give it five
out of five, but I think I willstick in the vein of our podcast
and I'll probably give it athree, because I think that I
cannot underappreciate the CGIat the time.
I know, looking at it now, alot of people do have some
gripes with it.

Speaker 2 (59:07):
It was great.

Speaker 1 (59:07):
Yeah, but I think at the time just to animate Draco's
lips in the way that they did,and not everything matches the
words, but it is revolutionaryfor the time, and trying to
mimic a human's mouth onto adragon-shaped skull is very
difficult and it pulls off.
They pull it off, not tomention the flying sequences
across the sky.
They replaced a plane, theyflew over a plane and then they

(59:30):
replaced that plane with Draco.
I think that technologically itis absolutely profound.
Sean Connery's performanceawesome.
Technologically it isabsolutely profound.
Sean Connery's performanceawesome.
The good versus evil and thesimplicity of that story is
something that's awesome for afamily-friendly fantasy film.
And yeah, as we said, there'ssome story elements in the
middle act that don't fit.
Some of the acting is a littlebit choppy as well, and then,
yeah, there's just some beatsthat don't quite fit it.

(59:52):
So for me it's a three.
For Brash it's a a 2.5.
Let's see where it sits.
All right, so that puts dragonheart at the 10th position,
which means it still sits in thetop 10 of the fandom portals on
a board, which is awesome.
Top 10 is nothing to be shy of,considering that we have 27
episodes out.
Not too bad, um, and then youknow, maybe in the future it'll
remain in the top 10, we'll see,but uh, definitely, if you like

(01:00:13):
fantasy films and you wantsomething to show your kids when
they're about, you know, sevento twelve, it's probably hitting
that age range, I think.
Yeah, I think that that is areally good score for it.
All right, so let's do oursign-offs.
Okay, this has been the phantomportals podcast.
We want to thank you guys forjoining us, as always, and if
you wanted to add a viewingchoice to our communities watch

(01:00:35):
list, then you can do so onLetterboxd and you can also join
us on Threads and Instagram andReddit, where you can put those
suggestions in or even justcomment on some of the posts
that we put up asking for youropinions, because sometimes we
read them out on the show.
We want to thank Mike againfrom Virginia in USA for sending
us that fan mail.
If you're a person that has along form question or if you
want to send us a movierecommendation on emails, then

(01:00:58):
you can do so at our emailaddress, which is fandom portals
at gmailcom.
All right, that is us from thefandom portals podcast, aaron,
signing out to the stars.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
Brush to the stars well, thanks for joining us and
hope you enjoyed the episode.
So, yeah, now down on ourpodcast, we'll be talking about
gabriel.
Uh, for those who know what'sabout, it's about the struggles
between good and evil, betweenheaven and hell, on our little
mortal plane that is Earth.
Keep a lookout for that one.
I personally like that movie,and it's one that I suggested

(01:01:28):
that we have a look at, or Aaronto have a look at, because I've
seen it and he hasn't.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
Yes, so definitely go in and do your homework for
next week, guys.
That is Gabriel we're going tobe looking at.
But yeah, thank you so much forjoining us guys.
We really do appreciate it andwe'll catch you guys later.
Cheers, cheers, cheers.

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DragonHeart (1996) – Part Two: The fall of King Einon and Bowen's Heroes Journey. Nostalgic Fantasy and the value of Persistence.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}DragonHeart (1996) – Part Two: The fall of King Einon and Bowen's Heroes Journey. Nostalgic Fantasy and the value of Persistence.