Summary
Aaron and guest Tia Jackson delve into Guillermo del Toro's 2022 adaptation of Pinocchio. They explore the themes of grief, love, and acceptance, particularly through the character of Geppetto, who grapples with the loss of his son. The conversation also highlights the unique animation style and the emotional depth of the characters, including Sebastian J. Cricket, who serves as a moral compass. The discussion culminates in reflections on the film's rich storytelling and its exploration of individuality, unconditional love, neurodivergence and acceptance.
Guest: Tia Jackson
Podcast: The Alien Effect Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-alien-effect/id1753337509
Takeaways
- The podcast celebrates the joy of fandoms and personal obsessions.
- Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio is a dark retelling that explores deep themes.
- Geppetto's character is a complex portrayal of grief and growth.
- The animation style is a labor of love, showcasing intricate details.
- Sebastian J. Cricket serves as both a conscience and a character with depth.
- The film explores the idea of unconditional love versus conditional love.
- Pinocchio's journey reflects the struggle for acceptance and individuality.
- The film's themes resonate with neurodivergent experiences.
- The exploration of life, death, and purpose is central to the narrative.
- The film's rich storytelling allows for multiple interpretations and insights.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Fandoms and Podcasts
03:57 Exploring Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio
15:51 Character Analysis: Geppetto's Grief and Growth
22:59 The Role of Sebastian J. Cricket
33:52 Themes of Love, Loss, and Acceptance
40:45 Final Thoughts and Takeaways
Soundbites
"Childhood loves will stay with you, and childhood fears definitely do." - Tia Jackson
"Uniqueness isn't a flaw to be corrected, but a truth to be embraced." - Aaron Davies
Apple Tags
Pinocchio, Guillermo del Toro, stop motion animation, fandom, neurodivergence, childhood fears, identity, grief, acceptance, The Alien Effect podcast, Tia Jackson, storytelling, film analysis, creativity, emotional journey
Contact Us:
Website: https://www.fandomportalspodcast.com/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@FandomPortals
Instagram: instagram.com/fandomportals/?locale=en
Threads: threads.net/@fandomportals
Email: fandomportals@gmail.com
Letterboxd: https://letterboxd.com/fandomportals
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone.
On this episode of the PhantomPortals podcast, I spoke to Tia
Jackson from the Alien Effectpodcast.
She was a really wonderfulguest to have on.
We had a beautiful discussionabout Pinocchio from 2022 that
was directed by Guillermo delToro.
In this episode, we looked atGeppetto's complex character and
how he suffered through grief,but also growth.
(00:20):
We also looked at how the filmexplores unconditional love
versus conditional love and,lastly, we looked at how
Pinocchio's journey sometimesresonates with some
neurodivergent experiences aswell.
So make sure you go and checkout Tia Jackson's podcast, the
Alien Effect Podcast.
The link to that will be in theshow notes below, guys, and we
hope you enjoy this discussion.
(00:41):
Welcome to the Fandom Portalspodcast, the show that explores
how fandoms can help us learnand grow.
Today, I'm joined by a veryspecial guest.
(01:02):
Her name is Tia Jackson and sheis the producer of the Alien
Effect podcast.
Very special guest.
Her name is Tia Jackson and sheis the producer of the Alien
Effect podcast.
How are you going today, Tia?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah, good, thank you , producer.
Sounds so fancy.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
I put it on the end of all of my emails so I sound
really professional.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
But if you record and if you edit your own podcast,
you're technically a producer.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
This is true.
This is true.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
So, yeah, thank you so much for joining me.
Today.
We're here to talk about themovie Pinocchio, made in 2022.
It was directed by Guillermodel Toro.
There was also another onebrought out in 2022, directed by
Robert Zemeckis, which was theDisney one, which I think they
did to compete.
But before we get into that,tia, did you want to tell us a
little bit about your podcast,the Alien Effect, how it began,
why you started it, that kind ofthing.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah, sure, so it's something I'd been meaning to
start for years, but last year Ifinally got around to it.
So it's called the Alien Effect.
But my whole sort of gimmick isthat it's actually nothing to
do with aliens, but rather it'sabout that feeling you get when
you love something so much.
You think the feeling mightburst out of your chest, like in
the film Alien.
So I'm all DHD, so autistic andADHD, and it's a feeling I get
(02:08):
quite frequently when I'mobsessed with different fandoms
and different pieces ofentertainment.
So that was always how I'd sortof explain how excited I got
about something.
And so, yeah, I wanted to starta podcast to celebrate that and
to share that with other peopleand hear what they're obsessed
with as well.
And the name also worked,because I often feel like a
little alien in a human suit,which I know is quite common for
(02:28):
neurodivergent people as anexperience.
And, yeah, I have a guest oneach episode.
They tell me about the thingsthey're obsessed with and they
can recommend me something aswell.
And yeah, it's just really fun.
It's just basically geeking outabout whatever people want to
talk about.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, I can definitely relate.
As we talked about before, I'mneurodivergent as well ADHD so I
relate strongly to the feelingof just getting really fixated
on something in particular.
That's part of the reason why Istarted the Fandom Portals
podcast, because I had all thisknowledge and nowhere to put it,
and so somebody wants to listento it, surely.
So yeah, I kind of deep diveinfrequently, but the topic
changes all the time.
So, you know, film and TV, kindof fandoms media is where it
usually finds itself, and thepodcasting platform that we're
(03:11):
on here kind of lends itselfperfectly to that kind of deep
dive and that kind of, you know,big obsession.
But yeah, I can definitelyrelate.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, no, and I love your podcast as well.
Like you said, it's a greatspace to be able to just geek
out and share those obsessionswith people.
It's really fun and you tend tofind your people in this
community.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
That's it.
Yeah, I've actually found thecommunity pretty welcoming,
especially on Threads.
Threads is probably one of thebetter places to find community
and get engagement and thingslike that.
It's a little bit more genuine.
I've done the Reddit thing hereand there, but that's like 60,
40% toxic to non-toxic, so inthe, in the, in the bad end of
the ratio.
So there's a lot of people onthere that just want to say
(03:55):
their opinions in a nasty wayand I'm sort of leaning against
away from that.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
But but yeah, thread seems to be going okay.
It's good so far and I think ithas been an adjustment for a
lot of the community sincetwitter went up in flames,
because I think that was a bigplatform for people to connect.
So it's nice that fred's isgoing well so far so far, so
good.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
So thanks for your compliment on the podcast as
well.
I really like yours.
You recently had a guest on mfrom verbal diorama, so I'll put
the link in the show notes tothat episode for our people to
go and check that out, becauseyou guys had a really great
discussion just geeking outabout, you know, the, the mummy
and all different kinds of stufflike that, but you also talked
a little bit about podcasting aswell through that.
So, yeah, you have some reallygreat guests on your show and
(04:36):
I'm thank you.
Yeah, I'm a big fan, so good tohave you on lovely.
All right, let's dive in.
Hey.
So this Pinocchio is a darkretelling of the classic tale.
It's infused with themes of war, fatherhood, obedience and
morality.
It's stop motion, which isprobably the best thing about it
in my opinion.
And the aesthetic is rich.
It's visual design.
It invites viewers to reallyreflect on identity, grief and
(04:58):
what it means to be truly alive.
So I'll flick to you, tia, whatwas your first impressions of
this movie?
Had you watched it before?
What did you think of it afteryou?
Speaker 2 (05:10):
you watched it and kind of watch your history with
Pinocchio as well, because it'sa story that's been around
forever.
Yeah, so, um, I mean I didn'tknow it was a book first and
foremost, until I was likelooking into this film.
But I was very familiar withthe, the Disney version, the
original Disney version.
Obviously it was one of the VHStapes that my nana and granddad
had, so that's when we watcheda lot when we were there and I
remember really loving it butjust having so much fear around
(05:31):
it like childhood bit, likeparticularly monstro, which I'm
sure we'll get more into later,but terrifying yeah, I'm
actually gobsmacked becauseeveryone in my entire life that
hears that I have a terriblefear of whales to this day they
treat me with so much shock.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
I've never met anyone that has the same reason for
fearing that kind of thing untilnow, because literally
Pinocchio is the reason whywhales and deep ocean and things
like that and massive seacreatures freak me out so much
because of monstros.
So I can completely relate andI can't believe that I've
actually found somebody thatfeels that way too, because I'm
the same Like.
I watched the Pinocchio VHS asa child and even scenes in I
(06:14):
think they called it PleasureIsland in the Disney version
where they start turning intodonkeys.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
So, creepy in the donkeys.
Yeah, I love donkeys.
Now, they're one of my favoriteanimals, you know, as are.
I'm sorry to like break yourheart on this one, but I do love
whales, but I'm still scared ofmonstros.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
No, that's okay.
I associated the monstro withwhales and hated all of them
ever since.
It's fair, it's fair.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
It's.
You know I've spoken a fewtimes before on my podcast but
like it tends to be, likechildhood loves will stay with
you and childhood fearsdefinitely do.
Like I am the same with sleepand beauty in the spindle
horrible.
Yeah, monstro was justhorrendous, and the and pleasure
island and I I think, havingwatched this film and reflecting
on the undertones of that, Iwonder how much of that was me
(06:59):
absorbing like shame and guiltand not, yeah, and you know,
disobedience and all of thosethings, or was it was.
Was it just that it was creepyvisually?
I don't know, but it's.
It's such a weird one, that1940 version, because you've got
all of that really dark stuff,but then some of the the other
bits are so aesthetically cuteand pleasing and warm and you've
(07:19):
got figaro the cat and clearfish and like geppetto and his
little nighty and I love all ofthat stuff.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Exactly, and you know the warmth of the blue fairy
and how she grants that wish forGeppetto and Jiminy Cricket,
just all around became like amascot for.
Disney, yeah, proper gen,absolutely yeah, and you know
doing his best to help Pinocchioout.
Yeah, even the song, you know,wish Upon a Star, that kind of
is the anthem really for Disney.
(07:47):
So it really traveled reallyfar, considering the themes in
the movie are, as you said,quite kind of dark.
So, yeah, I watched it as a kid, just like you did, and there's
been lots and lots of versionsof this as the years have gone
on.
Each time I've met with thesame sort of feeling, general
sort of fear, but I kind ofsteered clear away from the
(08:09):
Pinocchio story until this onecame out.
I haven't seen the Disneyremake, the 2022 Disney remake
live action, but I've heard it'snot all.
It's sort of cracked up to be.
Have you seen it, tia?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
I think I've watched bits, but a few friends said
just don't bother because it'snot great.
And I think it was such amistake for them to do it at the
same time as this one,particularly because, you know,
especially when this one wasanother animation to the highest
level, you could Well, yeah,like obviously stop motion, but
the highest caliber you couldcreate, and then just yeah, it
(08:42):
kind of had everything going forit too.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
It had, like, Tom Hanks, Geppetto, Robert Zemeckis
those two paired together forForrest Gump before, so you're
like it should win.
But yeah, it just didn'tcommunicate that to audiences
and I think it did have a lot todo with the fact that Guillermo
brought this one out.
He'd been working on it forthree years prior and, as you
said, that stop motion is justsort of breathtaking.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
It is of breathtaking .
It is and I think a lot ofpeople generally aren't keen on
the live action remakes and Ithink that the yeah, that
contrast of seeing guillermo'swork and how much heart and love
had gone into it versus just amoney-making like sort of rehash
soulless rehash, yeah, so yeahyeah, um, speaking of that love
and speaking of that, thatstop-motion animation, we might
dive into a little bit aboutthat because that's, as I've
(09:26):
said, probably the mostbreathtaking part of this movie
and the most visually impressive.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
These models, these puppets, were all handmade.
They combine various differentstop motion features and
technology that's developed overyears and years.
We're talking Pinocchio, forexample, is a 3D printed puppet.
His face, they have lots ofdifferent sort of face
replacements that they use forvarious different shots and some
of the puppets as well sort ofhad animatronic faces that they
(09:50):
could sort of push and squeezeand move.
That looked a little bit morelike latex driven, and I love
the choice that they made tomake pinocchio that 3d printed
puppet as opposed to the latex,because he's obviously far apart
from being that human.
It's kind of part of the, theactual story that he's so far
removed from humanity.
But yeah, I just thought thatstop motion was just absolutely
(10:10):
beautiful.
What were your thoughts of itwhen you watched it?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
yeah, it was my favorite element of of the film
as well.
Yeah, I'm really excited I sawI haven't had a chance to watch
it yet, but they've got thebehind the scenes like special
on netflix about it as well andI'm very excited to watch that
because it is just it's.
It's one of those examples ofwhen an art form is at its
highest level.
There's so many beautiful smalldetails, like one that stood
(10:36):
out to me quite early on is whenhe's carving carlo's shoes and
just just the wood shavings andlike the movement of everything.
Yeah, every single detail, likeand frame has has love in in
this, in this film.
It's it's just mesmerizing,really breathtaking to to see,
and especially when you thentake a step back and think how
(10:57):
much work went into this and howlong did it take to put all
this together um it'smind-blowing yeah, yeah, so it's
.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
It's 24 frames per second, which means like 24
different movements of thecharacter for every second.
And then they, they also didthe maths and they said that
there was about five seconds offootage per animator per week
and they had over 60 animatorson the project over the
three-year period.
It was in production for over athousand days.
They had, you know, over athousand puppets as well that
were created.
(11:24):
And they didn't cut any cornersas well, because you, when I'm
making something for claymation,for example, you just make your
simple sort of sausage man andyou move along as best that you
can, because then you don't haveto worry about, you know,
moving hair, moving vests,things like that.
But even the character of, say,volpe, for example, with his
long illust hair, arced nose andthen that billowing overcoat,
(11:46):
the way that that moves andswishes, is almost sort of
natural.
That was a deliberate choice todo and it obviously would have
put in a thousand times morework to pull off correctly.
And not only that, thatdeliberate sort of choice to
animate those elements ofcharacter design, but I also
found it really endearing thatcharacters would have mistakes
animated, and I heard guillermotalking about this when he did
(12:08):
his behind the scenes where youcan see it, when sort of
spazitura goes to to knock onvolpe's door.
He kind of goes to knock andhe's like oh, I don't know about
that, and he scratches his faceand then he knocks again.
I'm like that would have takenthat's like three seconds of
animation, which therefore wouldhave taken about a week to
animate him just thinking aboutknocking on the door.
So I'm like those mistakes arejust sort of animated in to make
it seem like it's so real.
(12:30):
And, as you said about thecarving with the wooden shoes, I
love the scene when Geppettohad a little bit too much to
drink and was obviously carvingPinocchio, because when he was
putting things down, like thebottle would go down and it
would knock like a nail and thenthey'd have to animate the nail
rolling around and even thosetiny little things that they
just had to animate.
They didn't just stop when itcame to animating the characters
(12:51):
, it was just mind-blowing yeah,it really is.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Like it is just I don't know how else to say it
beyond that, but I think youcould watch this an infinite
amount of times and findsomething new each time, because
there is so much detail inthere.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
I 100% agree.
It's a masterpiece.
Do you remember the scene whenSpazitura was kind of like
swinging down the lights andgoing through the sort of
carnival sequence and then inthe background there was lots of
different claymation puppetslike lifting weights or moving
things around the area and sortof jumping through the carnival
sequence?
There he was on his way to sortof Volpe's caravan at that
point oh, yeah, yeah, and thatshot there.
(13:27):
It was shot with a roving camera, so it was a moving camera that
went across, but it was alsothat was 24 seconds of film and
it was just one of the mostelaborate and beautiful pieces
that I've ever seen.
That's probably my favoritescene of the movie, just for how
artistic it is.
But yeah, it's just, you know,60 handcrafted sets as well.
(13:47):
All the set design was made.
You know, the churches, theboats, the townships, volpe's
sort of theater production thatwas all kind of made.
It was just, yeah, it's amazing.
Yeah, it's no wonder that itwon the Oscar for Best Animator
Featuring 2023.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
It would have been criminal for it not to win,
wouldn't it?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
What they've done with them all.
Now I wonder if they're in amuseum or exhibition or
something.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
I would hope so, because unless Guillermo kept
them.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah maybe?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah, because there was heaps of them actually,
because they didn't just keepone puppet per character, they
had multiple, obviously forvarious different reasons, and
they were all about 13 inchestall, so just a little bit
bigger than a Subway sandwich.
But some of the ones that theydid were actually really huge,
like Pinocchio's head, forexample.
They made a really large-scaleone of Pinocchio's head so they
(14:35):
could animate Jiminy Cricketmoving up his nose.
Yeah, because it would havebeen harder to do it in a
smaller scale.
So it's just like the thoughtand the care that sort of went
through that and it wasobviously a labor of love.
And I think kiamo has afondness for these kinds of
stories, because he's obviouslydone pinocchio now but then he's
moving now into doingfrankenstein as well, which is
sort of like another I was goingto say actually the, the, when
(14:57):
you know he's, he's drunk andmaking pinocchio, it's very
frankenstein influence, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
with the storm outside and everything.
I loved it actually, that scene.
It this time watching it.
I don't know if you've seenParks and Rec before, but
there's a.
There's a meme of like did awould a depressed person make
this?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
you've seen that one no, I haven't seen that one, but
I can definitely attest to itbecause I loved that, that
initial scene when Pinocchiofirst wakes up for the first
time.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
He's like barely human in the way that he moved
Like that is so horrific andFrankenstein-like.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
But I love that they started that way because it
shows his growth from likeliterally not knowing how to be
a human to then becoming one ofthe kindest and nicest boys to
ever walk the planet Earth.
I agree completely with youthat storm sequence outside the
scene where he's sort ofcrafting, completely
Frankenstein-like, and there area lot of similarities in that
vein too.
So I can definitely see it,yeah.
(15:51):
So let's move on.
Now We'll go to having a littlebit of a look at some of the
characters and how they sort ofgrew across the picture or
across the movie.
So, as we're looking at sort ofGeppetto, we kind of start with
him and he's like I don't knowhow to say this sensitively, but
like he's a grieving fatherbecause he's obviously lost his
(16:12):
son and I can't imagine the kindof grief that that would impart
on somebody.
But I feel like it's beenportrayed on screen just so
beautifully well, especially thetimes after Carlo passes away,
because he is very rough aroundthe edges.
Geppetto is at the start of themovie.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yeah, I mean, I hadn't seen this until a few
months ago when we talked aboutcovering it, and the first time
I watched it, that openingsequence with Carlo was my
highlight of the film.
I re-watched it again thismorning actually, and I enjoyed
the whole film more overall onthe second watch.
But yeah, the pain and emotionthey pack into that and his
(16:53):
grief afterwards is justhorrendous to watch.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Really heartbreaking.
But but you know, in a veryhuman way you have all those
feelings of frustration towardshim as well, because he is just
obviously coming from a place ofpain and grief.
He's so awful to Pinocchio inthe beginning, through such a
(17:21):
wealth and roller coaster ofemotions with him, considering
how briefly he's on screen, likelike you are straight in there
with him and and just in thiscomplete, complete turbulence
that he's obviously goingthrough as well.
But yeah, he is a flawedcharacter.
But I guess that so much ofthat exploration is is that you
know, parents are just peopletoo, trying their best, and and
(17:43):
I think there's definitely,definitely it flips a lot
between that perspective of theway parents see the world and
are trying their best and theway it's then interpreted to the
child.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it'sincredible.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, and I think that Geppetto, through his flips
and flops in grief, is part ofPinocchio's journey obviously as
well, because he's quitegrief-stricken, obviously
creates Pinocchio in that wayand he doesn't really want a
piece of him to start with, butthen he kind of embraces that
idea, thinking that he'sactually found his replacement
(18:17):
for his son.
And part of the learning thatGeppetto goes through as well is
learning that you know thatlove that he had for Carlo is
special, but it's a differentkind of love that he's going to
have to grow for Pinocchio,because Pinocchio is a different
sort of child and a verydifferent boy in that space.
But even with that sort ofdifference in his mind, I still
(18:40):
like that Geppetto sort ofchampioned and protected
Pinocchio's individualism infront of all the townspeople as
well.
So when they were calling himhorrible names and things like
that, he sort of took him homeand had words to him.
But then there was thatbeautiful scene where he's kind
of telling him a story andtucking him into bed.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
And he's treating him like a son, basically, him like
a son, basically.
So there is that element to himthat is caring towards
Pinocchio, despite the fact thatthe outside pressures are
telling him that your child isdifferent.
So that's another element ofGeppetto that I really really
connected to and liked as well,and obviously, throughout all
(19:21):
Pinocchio stories, geppetto is acharacter that is extremely
determined to find his son whenhe goes missing and and you know
, correct the mistake that hemade, which I think is something
that a lot of parents canrelate to.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
All the time, you know doing your best, basically
and I think you know obviously Isaid he was, he was awful to
pinocchio.
But I will say it's no offenseto anyone who has kids and I'm
sure this is yourself includedbut those early scenes when
pinocchio first wakes up is likethe best advert for me not to
have children.
It's like horrifying, it's likejust carnage toddler just
smashing the place that's aTuesday in this house it was
(19:51):
more the it's the screaming forthe hot chocolate.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
I was like, oh no, that was so real but but yeah, I
like even that that part there,when he's screaming for the hot
chocolate.
And you know, podesto, podestro, podesto, he's, he's there and
and so screaming for the hotchocolate, and you know, pedesto
, pedestro, pedesto, he's thereand so is the priest.
Geppetto was kind of liketrying to play face and he was
just like no, no, go and sitover there.
And then he's just like here,have the hot chocolate.
It's like what parent hasn'tdone that?
(20:14):
It's just like go, yeah, I meanlike it would definitely be
what I'd do.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
But, you're just saying as well about him just
trying to replace Carlo and thenaccepting Pinocchio.
I guess he drowns his grief indrink and then he still isn't
dealing with it.
With Pinocchio he's just likegreat, I've replaced Carlo, I've
just put a plaster over it.
But it's not actually until hedeals with it and lets Carlo go
(20:40):
that he can love Pinocchio inthe way that he actually should.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Yeah, and I think a big person in helping him get
through that is obviouslyPinocchio, but also the cricket,
which is Sebastian J Cricket orsomething like that in this one
.
Not Jiminy like usual, he's sogood played by Ewan McGregor.
I think they cast him perfectly.
Yeah, absolutely.
He's got that English sort ofdeadpan delivery in his comedy,
but he's also very emotionallyheartfelt in the way that he
(21:05):
speaks as well.
Yeah, I think that jiminycricket.
He also said you know very,very critical line in the movie.
He said you know the boy lovesyou for who you are.
Is it too much for you to dothe same for him?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
basically so I'm gonna say that scene.
It's like you know, we seethese kind of renditions all the
time of people's like brains orconscious, like them, talking
to them from an outsidemanifestation.
But yeah, that was obviouslylike when you think that's his
conscience talking that's himhaving a go at himself.
Really it's yeah, it's a reallyamazing scene.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yeah, yeah, and I also like that they didn't play
Sebastian Cricket in this asthat, the same way that they did
Jiminy basically in theoriginal Disney, not only by
design, but he sort of startedthe others grow and it just goes
to show how many livesPinocchio kind of touched in the
way that he was so individuallyand unapologetically himself
(22:13):
and I really liked how he, likeSebastian, would advocate for
Pinocchio in that sort of mannerand, as you said as well, you
know he is that sort ofconscience on the side and but
he's also sort of his owncharacter.
You said as well, you know heis that sort of conscience on
the side and but he's also sortof his own character as well.
But he plays that consciencecharacter not only for pinocchio
but also for geppetto.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
I think that's that's really awesome part of his
character and himself really,because I think he, you know,
like his motivations do change,as you say, and he grows and
there's something, yeah, verynice about just trying to
observe life and write about itwith those kind of motivations
and then actually realizing youwant to be a part of it.
Yeah, all very beautiful.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Absolutely and I think that at the two things I
think them putting the runninggag in that you just get
squished all the time is when hestarts to try and sing.
A song is great.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Actually because Hugh McGregor's voice is amazing.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
So you're like oh great.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Cut it short, yeah, because Hugh McGregor's voice is
amazing.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So you're like, oh great, cut it short.
Yeah, that's it.
But then the second thing is atthe end, when he starts trying
to present his life in thisscholarly manner, he ends up
sort of giving away a wish thatcould give him really anything
to bring back Pinocchio, whichis the complete selfless act act
and an amazing turnaround forthat sort of character to go
through as well.
So I think sebastian is justyeah, I'm gonna say it, I think
(23:26):
he's better than jiminy yeah, no, he is, he is, you know, the.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
There's obviously a lot more depth to this version
and he is a much more roundedand interesting character
because he's, he's, goes on hisown journey, like you say, where
original jiminy's just yeah,he's kind of all time absolutely
he's pushing that obedience,isn't he, which is good boys do
this.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
And actually he does start off that way as well,
because he, he says to toPinocchio.
He says you must obey, you haveto do as your papa says.
And then Pinocchio turns around, says, but I don't want to do
what my papa says.
And then he goes okay, well,then you must do your best and
that's all you can do.
So yeah, I think it was veryearly on that we learned that
Pinocchio kind of wasn't goingto move in the same sort of
(24:09):
transitional way as the originalPinocchio did Like, to the
point where, at the end of this,when they're talking about him
being a real boy, it looked verydifferent in this movie as well
.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, he's still his puppet self.
It's just, you know, mortal toan extent.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
It's not necessarily defined in clear-cut terms.
Yeah, yeah, I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah, I thought that was interesting because I think
it would have been in thisversion to go through all of
that exploration of acceptinghim for who he is.
It would have then been totallyoff to to change his form.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I absolutely agree, because I think he not only
learned to accept himself well,he always accepted himself it
was kind of the environmentaround him that was needing to
sort of go through thatacceptance.
But then for him to then conformto that environment by looking
like everybody else, I thinkyou're right.
I think it would have beentotally off.
I think the real boy elementfor me comes from he actually
(25:02):
learned how to feel, I guess,and mature in his sort of
feelings, because at the startyou know he's demanding hot
chocolate, he's acting onimpulse, he's sort of
emotionally loud all the time,and then he sort of learns to
become very empathetic becausehe's obviously expressing a lot
of emotions as a very emotionalbeing.
But then the flip side of thatis you also sort of can
(25:24):
recognize a lot of thoseemotions from other people which
he ends up doing.
One thing from Pinocchio thatsort of did strike me in this is
the concept of howconditionally loved he is at
times, which I think is veryevident in the Volpe sort of arc
, when he's being used basicallyand exploited for his talent.
But then even, I think, forGeppetto, as we were saying
(25:46):
before, he is very well lovedwhen he's acting good like Carlo
, did be a good boy like Carlo,but then when he was presenting
behaviours that were consideredobtrusive, then he would be
called a burden, and I thinkthat that sort of conditional
love is something that wasreally sort of stood out to me
as well as a theme in this movie.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And I think it's obviously evenmore sort of I can't think of
what the word is sort ofprevalent in Geppetto, literally
like creating Pinocchio in onenight.
It's kind of like he didn't.
You look at parenthood andthings, and people don't ask to
be brought into the world.
If you're making that choiceyou can't then you know you have
(26:26):
the responsibility and you'vegot to got to love them
unconditionally really so it's,yeah, a really interesting part
of both of their journeys reallyand it definitely explains.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
You know, in the 1940 disney version you get the
impression planicchio just runsoff because he wants, he's got
all of that temptation, whereasthis is much more about him
wanting validation and and loveand approval really yeah, that's
such a good point as amasterful change in my opinion
as well, because it it excuse myignorance of pinocchio from the
(26:56):
1940s, but it kind of changeshim from being that sort of
brattish, childlike sort ofcharacter, which I do say that
he expressed a lot of innocenceof childhood there, but also can
come off as a little bitbrattish to this kid that really
just wants that acceptance andwants and he's also kind of
ignorant to it as well at thestart.
But as his journey goes on hekind of realizes that he doesn't
really fit in in places and hisjourney is how can he be
(27:21):
himself and fit in this world ofof fascist italy?
And I think guillermo did anamazing job by putting it in
that kind of environment,because that environment and
that part of history in infascist italy was all about
control and obedience formity.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah, and all of pinocchio's behavior is coming
from a place of curiosity.
They say you've got to obeyyour father?
Why?
Well, you just have to, youhave to go.
They say you've got to obeyyour father why?
Well, you just have to.
You have to go to schoolbecause you just have to.
He's not allowed to questionanything.
Yeah, and obviously with thebackdrop of fascist Italy,
people are not actually allowedto question the system and have
(27:59):
their own.
There's even a line actuallyisn't there from I've forgotten
the character's name where hesays oh, he's a free-thinking
individual spirit.
We don't like that.
Yeah, we don't like that at all.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
I thought it was really interesting just to
mention off your point thatPinocchio was displaying all
these abhorrent qualities ofindividualism.
And then, you know, podestro'sanswer to that was send him to
school.
I thought that was pretty funny.
It was just like, well, that'llturn him into, you know, a
smart boy.
And then Pedestro's conditionallove we might say for Pinocchio
(28:30):
then enhances when he realizesthat he can be useful in a
warlike environment.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, that was the first time I watched this.
It was a bit of a because Iwent in quite blind, so it of a
like because I.
I went in quite blind so it wasa bit of a shock to have this
backdrop, but you know it, itjust, it just really works and
it definitely works thematicallywith with everything else going
on.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
No, I think combining pinocchio and candlewick, as
well as two different sort ofchildhood characters, together,
was really smart, becausecandlewick's obviously a product
of the system and pinocchio isdefinitely not.
So putting them together, youcan see the absolute differences
between the two boys.
But then there's that beautifulscene where they're sort of in
their bunks and they're talkingabout how they reflect upon how
(29:15):
their fathers treat them, andyou could say that they both
have experienced very similarthings in terms of their their
fathers treating them aparticular way, and obviously
one coming from a place ofextreme grief and one coming
from conformity to agovernmental oppressive system.
And I think that, even thoughthey have those differences,
(29:35):
pinocchio and Candlewick arestill able to connect on the
fact that they really just wantto be loved by their father for
who they are.
And it gets to the point whereCandlewick actually says at the
end, when he's confronted withthe the choice of of shooting
pinocchio, he said I may beafraid and I may be weak in your
eyes, but I can still say no toyou.
And he learns that frompinocchio, which I think is
(29:55):
absolutely beautiful and goesback to the point where we were
talking about how pinocchioliterally changes everybody he
touches through his individualself, which is a beautiful
reflection of, and also abeautiful advocation of being
yourself in different sort ofsituations, especially
oppressive ones.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
So I found it.
I've noticed it more this time.
I found it a bit of a shamethat they don't really explain
what happens to candlewick, likeyou see that I think he crawls
out of the wreckage after thatexplosion but he doesn't come
back again I suppose you knowkind of that's war.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Maybe he doesn't and I think that I think his, his
story purpose you might say,kind of ended there where you
can sort of say you know he's,he's done that sort of purpose
for pinocchio and he inpinocchio's story.
But for pinocchio, poor thing,he went from that environment
straight to being, you know,strapped to a piece of wood by
volpe and lit on fire.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
So that sort of thing and obviously spazitura is very
like similar sort of story toto what candlewick's going
through with his father and thatyou know, those scenes are sort
of back to back of him finallystanding up to to volpe and yeah
, I mean, I say him, I don'tknow spazitura is yeah, I'm not
sure either.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I'm not sure if they've they gender or them.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
See who it was voiced by then.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Yeah, absolutely, and .
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Cate Blanchett, which is amazing.
It blew my mind because thewood spirit and death.
I thought that was CateBlanchett because I do get her
and Tilda Swinton's voicesconfused quite a lot.
And then I IMDb'd it and I waslike, yeah, there's Cate
Blanchett, okay yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
No, it okay.
Yeah, no, I I.
I saw an interview with her andshe is a massive fan of
guillermo's work and he sheheard that he was working on
this movie, pinocchio, and hesaid I will do any part that he
will give me.
And he said, well, I only reallyhave, because he was gonna.
He was gonna do sound effectsfor spazitore.
And he said I really only have.
Like, I could do spazitore, youcould do the voice of a monkey.
And she goes I I'll do it.
Yeah, so she just loves workingwith him so much and I can
attest that I would do anythingto be a part of this movie too.
(31:50):
But it has a pretty phenomenalvoice cast too.
You know, obviously we saidEwan McGregor.
There's David Bradley asGeppetto, who was obviously Mr
Filch in Harry Potter.
Ron Perlman, who is a frequentcollaborator with Guillermo del
Toro.
He was Hellboy and he playedPodesto.
His deep voice can't bemistaken for anybody.
But then also Finn Wolfhardfrom Stranger Things.
(32:12):
Yeah, he was, what would yousay now Candlewick.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Yeah, yeah, he's a really nice voice, it's good.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yeah, oh, and obviously Christoph Waltz as
well, whose voice isunmistakable.
All right, Were you ready totalk about your most valuable
takeaways from the movie Tia?
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think for me it's thefinal line of the film.
That's when it sort of reallyhad the big impact on me.
Is that what happens happensand then we're gone.
And obviously the film doesexplore life and our purpose and
death and all of those things.
Just as a side note.
The death sort of sequences arebeautiful.
(32:53):
I really death and all of thosethings.
Just as a side note the deathsort of sequences are beautiful.
I really really loved all ofthose.
But yeah, I guess you've evengot the sand timers there and
this concept of us all being onborrowed time and it being short
and what you're going to dowith that time.
And I think it's reallyinteresting that the film
explores religion and thenobviously fascism and these
(33:14):
ideas of higher powers thatpeople are serving, but
ultimately, the one that mattersis is your loved ones and and
being selfless and and livingfor other people and and just
just appreciating the life youhave as well.
And I think on the flip side ofthat, you know, this idea that
it's fleeting also explores thatyou can find life after grief,
(33:37):
obviously for geppetto,pinocchio at the end as well,
continuing without all of hisfriends and just, yeah, the
beauty of that and yeah, I thinkjust all of those those scenes
tie in beautifully and that wassort of what really hit me most
in the film yeah, I, I agree,because I feel like that's also
a lesson that Pinocchio learnsthrough the movie as well,
(33:57):
because those first few timesthat he well, the first time
obviously it was a bit of ashock, but then after that the
way he talks about death is justlike, yeah, I've died lots of
times, it's fine.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
And he ends up then making those sort of sacrifices
because he kind of knows thatthere is no consequence, you
might say, to those kinds ofsacrifices, but what makes them
a sacrifice is that you'relosing something pretty
significant.
And then he, he actually comesto that conclusion when he
obviously has to give up hisimmortality to save geppetto at
(34:24):
that time.
So I I think that that that isa beautiful takeaway.
But it's also a beautifullesson that the characters sort
of go through in this space andI completely agree, those
sequences of death and even likethe sand timers and and how
beautifully backlit thoseplaying animated characters are
in that space, and the rabbitsas well, and just they kind of
flipped it on that sort oftongue-in-cheek, humorous tone
(34:45):
at that point.
One of my favorite sort ofdeath scenes that sort of
happened was when pinocchio gotshot, but then it sort of it
snapped from the gunshot to him,just busting out of the coffin.
There he is, it's you again yeah, exactly, and then you know,
obviously Sebastian's thereplaying cards with them at the
end.
But I really love the fact thatGuillermo was able to explore
(35:06):
grief and obviously death, butthen the meaning of life through
that as well, and the fact thatit, as you said, that sort of
fleeting instance that makes itimportant and the fact that you
know Pinocchio ends up carryingSebastian with him always, you
know, in his heart.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Oh God yeah, that broke me.
Yeah, really broke me, andobviously it then finishes on
the acorn as well like abeautiful cyclical thing as well
, and I think it sort ofexplores the what happens
happens and then we're gone.
It's the accepting that we all,we all have to go at some point
.
Also, I guess the kind of themeaningless of life.
(35:41):
But what then, on the flip side, what gives our life meaning?
And I think the exploration ofreligion, like I said, is really
interesting.
I think the fact carlo getsblown up in a church in a random
act that wasn't supposed tohappen, without any real meaning
to it.
It's just.
It's kind of like exploring howthat kind of is how it goes.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
There were kind of a few sort of religious parallels
in the movie as well, especiallywhere, you know, pinocchio
first saw the efficacy of Jesusin the church and he says he's
wooden and they all love him.
Why don't they love me?
I thought that was reallybrilliant and really sort of
insightful.
But then also, as the moviewent on, I sort of started to
notice from that point on thesimilarities between that jesus
(36:24):
effigy and pinocchio as he sortof traveled along the film,
because when volpe sort ofstraps him to the piece of wood
he's obviously in a sort ofcrucifix situation there, and
then after he gets blown upafter fighting the dogfish, he's
missing the same arm as theJesus at the start was missing
too.
So I'm not sure what they'resort of going for there, but
even like the resurrection, youknow that he sort of goes
(36:46):
through at that point.
Yeah, that might be somethingI'll have to sort of dive a
little bit deeper into, but Ithink that there's definitely
some some undertones there thatneed to be explored and it might
just be, you know, back ontothat life, death and and fate
and destiny sort of situations.
But yeah, I think that that'sreally really, really insightful
.
All right, my takeaway was thatobviously, uniqueness isn't a
(37:08):
flaw to be corrected, but it isa truth to be embraced, and it
kind of speaks to, obviously,children that are kind of
emotionally intense.
And I can relate to thisbecause I was a child that was
pretty emotionally intense attimes, being told that you're
too disruptive, too sensitive,too emotional, especially as a
guy as well.
(37:29):
That's kind of the transitionthat I went through with this
movie and I like the fact thatwhen they looked at pinocchio in
this film, it didn't frame itas like a deficit, because he
was obviously trying to behimself in this and he was sort
of the world kind of refused tomake space for for pinocchio in
that that space, and when hecouldn't replace carlo, he's
(37:50):
obviously seeking thatconnection as well, because in
the film pinocchio actually saidwas carlo a good boy and
geppetto said yes and he goeswell, I'll be just like carlo,
because he kind of wants thatconnection and he wants that
affection and that kind ofresembled like masking to me,
like, and and also especiallywhen he was performing in front
of everybody and he was just sohappy.
(38:12):
And you look at his sort of face, as soon as the curtain closes
because he's away from hisfather and the the score
undertoning, you know, the papasong, he's obviously really sad,
but then in front of everybodyhe's just so happy all the time.
So I kind of spoke to that sortof masking quality that a lot
of neurodivergent children sortof go through as well.
And then, you know, there wasthe painful line of why can't
you be a good boy just likecarlo?
(38:33):
It kind of reflects thatexperience that a lot of parents
go through, where they struggleto accept a child that's sort
of neurodivergent and theexpectations of sort of society
on those neurodivergent kids.
And especially with geppetto,because it was like he was a man
that was unlearning the beliefthat love has to be earned
through conformity.
He had to learn to lovepinocchio for who he is and not
(38:55):
for what he wanted him to be orwhat he thought he could be, and
I thought that was justbeautifully represented in this
movie wow, that's.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
That's really beautiful and um all makes
perfect sense.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Yeah, amazing yeah, I that's like I really really
enjoy this, take and love thismovie because I feel like it
speaks to a lot of differenthuman qualities and I feel like
it's so amazing because anybodythat watches it can obviously
take something different from it.
But also, each time you watchit, you could take something
different from it, not justvisually but also thematically.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
It's so layered and rich.
I was just admiring on therewatch today.
Rich, isn't it?
Like even just I was justadmiring on the rewatch today,
like obviously you've got the,the genius decision to make
everyone to use puppets to havea film about a puppet, but
obviously with the backdrop ofthe war.
People are just puppets in warand propaganda.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
So yeah, I mean that you can just, yeah, layers and
layers and layers and layersit's so clever and I think that,
yeah, the most beautiful partfor me is obviously the fact
that they didn't make him a realboy at the end.
I really love that part because, as you touched on, you know,
if he changed it wouldn't havefit the tone of the film.
But also, he's real because hefeels and he is loved because of
(40:03):
who he is and not for who heturns into or how obedient he is
, and you know, he can behimself safely and fully and
without shame, and that's that'sprobably the most beautiful
part of this story that I sortof came across.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
I yeah, I'm gonna have to watch it again yeah in
mind now well, I I hope thatit's a good rewatch because, as
we said, you know you can takeit into lots of different spaces
.
But, yeah, okay, tia, I want toreally thank you for joining me
.
This has been an amazing andbeautiful chat about a movie
that I really do hold dear, andthank you for coming on the
podcast.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
You're so welcome.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Did you want to just tell us where everybody on the
internet can find you as well,and we'll have all these notes
in the show notes for everybodyas well.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
This is tia jackson guys yeah, so you can find me on
social media.
So instagram, freds and bluesky at the alien effect pod, or
you can email me at the alieneffect pod at gmailcom.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
So, yeah, feel free to get in touch and yeah, enjoy
geek out with a lot of differentguests that tia has, so you do
weekly episodes, tia fortnightly, but I I might be spacing out a
bit more because it's timeconsuming Absolutely, and you
know we talked a little bitabout it at the start, but it's
a really big undertaking.
You know we do this to express aneed or because we love it so
(41:23):
much, but it does take a littlebit of time and I really do
appreciate your time today to beon the show.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
It's been an absolute joy, honestly.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Yeah, I'll happily chat any times.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Thank you, you're always welcome as well if you
want to.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Yeah absolutely, and yeah, that's it for me.
I'll catch you guys later.
Thanks, that was tia jacksonfrom the alien effect podcast,
and we discussed everything todo with pinocchio.
One of the things that reallyresonated with me in that
episode, guys, was how much wediscussed pinocchio wanting to
be accepted for his true self.
(41:57):
It's because of this that theFandom Portals podcast is, from
now on, going to be doingmulti-episode runs on a single
most valuable takeaway or theme,and we'll be fitting various
different movies into that theme, various different movies into
that theme.
So what this means is, for thenext three to four weeks, we're
going to be looking at filmsthat really focus on the theme
(42:18):
of becoming your true self, andBrash and I are going to be
looking at three to fourdifferent movies, one per
episode that really exploresdifferent facets of that theme
of becoming your true self.
We're approaching 50 episodes,guys, and we're also approaching
one year of the Fandom Portalspodcast and we've evolved quite
a lot through that time.
So if you've been on thisjourney with us, please send us
(42:40):
an email because we will bereading some out on our 50th
episode celebration.
Thank you to those people whohave stuck around, to new
followers and old.
We really do appreciate yourlistenership, and the community
that we've built here at FandomPortals is an open one.
That is one of my favoriteplaces to discuss all the things
that I love, so thank you formaking it so welcoming.
(43:01):
Thank you for interacting withus online and also through our
podcasts and YouTube channels.
There's much more to come fromthe Fandom Portals podcast guys.
We want to thank you for beinga part of the journey so far.
We hope you enjoy the new formatcoming forward, which is
focusing on various differentthemed arcs as we move forward.
So please make sure that youfollow, check out all the links
(43:23):
in the show notes for anyupdates and also join our
mailing list, which is on ourwebsite at
wwwfandomportalspodcastcom.
With that mailing list, we'llsend you one email a month that
tells you everything that'scoming up on the podcast, and
you'll also be the first one toknow about any giveaways that we
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(43:44):
So go and head to that websiteand become a part of the
community today.
We'll catch you next time.
All right, bye-bye.
Hi everyone.
On this episode of the PhantomPortals podcast, I spoke to Tia
Jackson from the Alien Effectpodcast.
She was a really wonderfulguest to have on.
We had a beautiful discussionabout Pinocchio from 2022 that
was directed by Guillermo delToro.
In this episode, we looked atGeppetto's complex character and
how he suffered through grief,but also growth.
(00:20):
We also looked at how the filmexplores unconditional love
versus conditional love and,lastly, we looked at how
Pinocchio's journey sometimesresonates with some
neurodivergent experiences aswell.
So make sure you go and checkout Tia Jackson's podcast, the
Alien Effect Podcast.
The link to that will be in theshow notes below, guys, and we
hope you enjoy this discussion.
(00:41):
Welcome to the Fandom Portalspodcast, the show that explores
how fandoms can help us learnand grow.
Today, I'm joined by a veryspecial guest.
(01:02):
Her name is Tia Jackson and sheis the producer of the Alien
Effect podcast.
Very special guest.
Her name is Tia Jackson and sheis the producer of the Alien
Effect podcast.
How are you going today, Tia?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah, good, thank you , producer.
Sounds so fancy.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
I put it on the end of all of my emails so I sound
really professional.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
But if you record and if you edit your own podcast,
you're technically a producer.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
This is true.
This is true.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
So, yeah, thank you so much for joining me.
Today.
We're here to talk about themovie Pinocchio, made in 2022.
It was directed by Guillermodel Toro.
There was also another onebrought out in 2022, directed by
Robert Zemeckis, which was theDisney one, which I think they
did to compete.
But before we get into that,tia, did you want to tell us a
little bit about your podcast,the Alien Effect, how it began,
why you started it, that kind ofthing.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah, sure, so it's something I'd been meaning to
start for years, but last year Ifinally got around to it.
So it's called the Alien Effect.
But my whole sort of gimmick isthat it's actually nothing to
do with aliens, but rather it'sabout that feeling you get when
you love something so much.
You think the feeling mightburst out of your chest, like in
the film Alien.
So I'm all DHD, so autistic andADHD, and it's a feeling I get
(02:08):
quite frequently when I'mobsessed with different fandoms
and different pieces ofentertainment.
So that was always how I'd sortof explain how excited I got
about something.
And so, yeah, I wanted to starta podcast to celebrate that and
to share that with other peopleand hear what they're obsessed
with as well.
And the name also worked,because I often feel like a
little alien in a human suit,which I know is quite common for
(02:28):
neurodivergent people as anexperience.
And, yeah, I have a guest oneach episode.
They tell me about the thingsthey're obsessed with and they
can recommend me something aswell.
And yeah, it's just really fun.
It's just basically geeking outabout whatever people want to
talk about.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, I can definitely relate.
As we talked about before, I'mneurodivergent as well ADHD so I
relate strongly to the feelingof just getting really fixated
on something in particular.
That's part of the reason why Istarted the Fandom Portals
podcast, because I had all thisknowledge and nowhere to put it,
and so somebody wants to listento it, surely.
So yeah, I kind of deep diveinfrequently, but the topic
changes all the time.
So, you know, film and TV, kindof fandoms media is where it
usually finds itself, and thepodcasting platform that we're
(03:11):
on here kind of lends itselfperfectly to that kind of deep
dive and that kind of, you know,big obsession.
But yeah, I can definitelyrelate.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, no, and I love your podcast as well.
Like you said, it's a greatspace to be able to just geek
out and share those obsessionswith people.
It's really fun and you tend tofind your people in this
community.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
That's it.
Yeah, I've actually found thecommunity pretty welcoming,
especially on Threads.
Threads is probably one of thebetter places to find community
and get engagement and thingslike that.
It's a little bit more genuine.
I've done the Reddit thing hereand there, but that's like 60,
40% toxic to non-toxic, so inthe, in the, in the bad end of
the ratio.
So there's a lot of people onthere that just want to say
(03:55):
their opinions in a nasty wayand I'm sort of leaning against
away from that.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
But but yeah, thread seems to be going okay.
It's good so far and I think ithas been an adjustment for a
lot of the community sincetwitter went up in flames,
because I think that was a bigplatform for people to connect.
So it's nice that fred's isgoing well so far so far, so
good.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
So thanks for your compliment on the podcast as
well.
I really like yours.
You recently had a guest on mfrom verbal diorama, so I'll put
the link in the show notes tothat episode for our people to
go and check that out, becauseyou guys had a really great
discussion just geeking outabout, you know, the, the mummy
and all different kinds of stufflike that, but you also talked
a little bit about podcasting aswell through that.
So, yeah, you have some reallygreat guests on your show and
(04:36):
I'm thank you.
Yeah, I'm a big fan, so good tohave you on lovely.
All right, let's dive in.
Hey.
So this Pinocchio is a darkretelling of the classic tale.
It's infused with themes of war, fatherhood, obedience and
morality.
It's stop motion, which isprobably the best thing about it
in my opinion.
And the aesthetic is rich.
It's visual design.
It invites viewers to reallyreflect on identity, grief and
(04:58):
what it means to be truly alive.
So I'll flick to you, tia, whatwas your first impressions of
this movie?
Had you watched it before?
What did you think of it afteryou?
Speaker 2 (05:10):
you watched it and kind of watch your history with
Pinocchio as well, because it'sa story that's been around
forever.
Yeah, so, um, I mean I didn'tknow it was a book first and
foremost, until I was likelooking into this film.
But I was very familiar withthe, the Disney version, the
original Disney version.
Obviously it was one of the VHStapes that my nana and granddad
had, so that's when we watcheda lot when we were there and I
remember really loving it butjust having so much fear around
(05:31):
it like childhood bit, likeparticularly monstro, which I'm
sure we'll get more into later,but terrifying yeah, I'm
actually gobsmacked becauseeveryone in my entire life that
hears that I have a terriblefear of whales to this day they
treat me with so much shock.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
I've never met anyone that has the same reason for
fearing that kind of thing untilnow, because literally
Pinocchio is the reason whywhales and deep ocean and things
like that and massive seacreatures freak me out so much
because of monstros.
So I can completely relate andI can't believe that I've
actually found somebody thatfeels that way too, because I'm
the same Like.
I watched the Pinocchio VHS asa child and even scenes in I
(06:14):
think they called it PleasureIsland in the Disney version
where they start turning intodonkeys.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
So, creepy in the donkeys.
Yeah, I love donkeys.
Now, they're one of my favoriteanimals, you know, as are.
I'm sorry to like break yourheart on this one, but I do love
whales, but I'm still scared ofmonstros.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
No, that's okay.
I associated the monstro withwhales and hated all of them
ever since.
It's fair, it's fair.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
It's.
You know I've spoken a fewtimes before on my podcast but
like it tends to be, likechildhood loves will stay with
you and childhood fearsdefinitely do.
Like I am the same with sleepand beauty in the spindle
horrible.
Yeah, monstro was justhorrendous, and the and pleasure
island and I I think, havingwatched this film and reflecting
on the undertones of that, Iwonder how much of that was me
(06:59):
absorbing like shame and guiltand not, yeah, and you know,
disobedience and all of thosethings, or was it was.
Was it just that it was creepyvisually?
I don't know, but it's.
It's such a weird one, that1940 version, because you've got
all of that really dark stuff,but then some of the the other
bits are so aesthetically cuteand pleasing and warm and you've
(07:19):
got figaro the cat and clearfish and like geppetto and his
little nighty and I love all ofthat stuff.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Exactly, and you know the warmth of the blue fairy
and how she grants that wish forGeppetto and Jiminy Cricket,
just all around became like amascot for.
Disney, yeah, proper gen,absolutely yeah, and you know
doing his best to help Pinocchioout.
Yeah, even the song, you know,wish Upon a Star, that kind of
is the anthem really for Disney.
(07:47):
So it really traveled reallyfar, considering the themes in
the movie are, as you said,quite kind of dark.
So, yeah, I watched it as a kid, just like you did, and there's
been lots and lots of versionsof this as the years have gone
on.
Each time I've met with thesame sort of feeling, general
sort of fear, but I kind ofsteered clear away from the
(08:09):
Pinocchio story until this onecame out.
I haven't seen the Disneyremake, the 2022 Disney remake
live action, but I've heard it'snot all.
It's sort of cracked up to be.
Have you seen it, tia?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
I think I've watched bits, but a few friends said
just don't bother because it'snot great.
And I think it was such amistake for them to do it at the
same time as this one,particularly because, you know,
especially when this one wasanother animation to the highest
level, you could Well, yeah,like obviously stop motion, but
the highest caliber you couldcreate, and then just yeah, it
(08:42):
kind of had everything going forit too.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
It had, like, Tom Hanks, Geppetto, Robert Zemeckis
those two paired together forForrest Gump before, so you're
like it should win.
But yeah, it just didn'tcommunicate that to audiences
and I think it did have a lot todo with the fact that Guillermo
brought this one out.
He'd been working on it forthree years prior and, as you
said, that stop motion is justsort of breathtaking.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
It is of breathtaking .
It is and I think a lot ofpeople generally aren't keen on
the live action remakes and Ithink that the yeah, that
contrast of seeing guillermo'swork and how much heart and love
had gone into it versus just amoney-making like sort of rehash
soulless rehash, yeah, so yeahyeah, um, speaking of that love
and speaking of that, thatstop-motion animation, we might
dive into a little bit aboutthat because that's, as I've
(09:26):
said, probably the mostbreathtaking part of this movie
and the most visually impressive.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
These models, these puppets, were all handmade.
They combine various differentstop motion features and
technology that's developed overyears and years.
We're talking Pinocchio, forexample, is a 3D printed puppet.
His face, they have lots ofdifferent sort of face
replacements that they use forvarious different shots and some
of the puppets as well sort ofhad animatronic faces that they
(09:50):
could sort of push and squeezeand move.
That looked a little bit morelike latex driven, and I love
the choice that they made tomake pinocchio that 3d printed
puppet as opposed to the latex,because he's obviously far apart
from being that human.
It's kind of part of the, theactual story that he's so far
removed from humanity.
But yeah, I just thought thatstop motion was just absolutely
(10:10):
beautiful.
What were your thoughts of itwhen you watched it?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
yeah, it was my favorite element of of the film
as well.
Yeah, I'm really excited I sawI haven't had a chance to watch
it yet, but they've got thebehind the scenes like special
on netflix about it as well andI'm very excited to watch that
because it is just it's.
It's one of those examples ofwhen an art form is at its
highest level.
There's so many beautiful smalldetails, like one that stood
(10:36):
out to me quite early on is whenhe's carving carlo's shoes and
just just the wood shavings andlike the movement of everything.
Yeah, every single detail, likeand frame has has love in in
this, in this film.
It's it's just mesmerizing,really breathtaking to to see,
and especially when you thentake a step back and think how
(10:57):
much work went into this and howlong did it take to put all
this together um it'smind-blowing yeah, yeah, so it's
.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
It's 24 frames per second, which means like 24
different movements of thecharacter for every second.
And then they, they also didthe maths and they said that
there was about five seconds offootage per animator per week
and they had over 60 animatorson the project over the
three-year period.
It was in production for over athousand days.
They had, you know, over athousand puppets as well that
were created.
(11:24):
And they didn't cut any cornersas well, because you, when I'm
making something for claymation,for example, you just make your
simple sort of sausage man andyou move along as best that you
can, because then you don't haveto worry about, you know,
moving hair, moving vests,things like that.
But even the character of, say,volpe, for example, with his
long illust hair, arced nose andthen that billowing overcoat,
(11:46):
the way that that moves andswishes, is almost sort of
natural.
That was a deliberate choice todo and it obviously would have
put in a thousand times morework to pull off correctly.
And not only that, thatdeliberate sort of choice to
animate those elements ofcharacter design, but I also
found it really endearing thatcharacters would have mistakes
animated, and I heard guillermotalking about this when he did
(12:08):
his behind the scenes where youcan see it, when sort of
spazitura goes to to knock onvolpe's door.
He kind of goes to knock andhe's like oh, I don't know about
that, and he scratches his faceand then he knocks again.
I'm like that would have takenthat's like three seconds of
animation, which therefore wouldhave taken about a week to
animate him just thinking aboutknocking on the door.
So I'm like those mistakes arejust sort of animated in to make
it seem like it's so real.
(12:30):
And, as you said about thecarving with the wooden shoes, I
love the scene when Geppettohad a little bit too much to
drink and was obviously carvingPinocchio, because when he was
putting things down, like thebottle would go down and it
would knock like a nail and thenthey'd have to animate the nail
rolling around and even thosetiny little things that they
just had to animate.
They didn't just stop when itcame to animating the characters
(12:51):
, it was just mind-blowing yeah,it really is.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Like it is just I don't know how else to say it
beyond that, but I think youcould watch this an infinite
amount of times and findsomething new each time, because
there is so much detail inthere.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
I 100% agree.
It's a masterpiece.
Do you remember the scene whenSpazitura was kind of like
swinging down the lights andgoing through the sort of
carnival sequence and then inthe background there was lots of
different claymation puppetslike lifting weights or moving
things around the area and sortof jumping through the carnival
sequence?
There he was on his way to sortof Volpe's caravan at that
point oh, yeah, yeah, and thatshot there.
(13:27):
It was shot with a roving camera, so it was a moving camera that
went across, but it was alsothat was 24 seconds of film and
it was just one of the mostelaborate and beautiful pieces
that I've ever seen.
That's probably my favoritescene of the movie, just for how
artistic it is.
But yeah, it's just, you know,60 handcrafted sets as well.
(13:47):
All the set design was made.
You know, the churches, theboats, the townships, volpe's
sort of theater production thatwas all kind of made.
It was just, yeah, it's amazing.
Yeah, it's no wonder that itwon the Oscar for Best Animator
Featuring 2023.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
It would have been criminal for it not to win,
wouldn't it?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
What they've done with them all.
Now I wonder if they're in amuseum or exhibition or
something.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
I would hope so, because unless Guillermo kept
them.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah maybe?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah, because there was heaps of them actually,
because they didn't just keepone puppet per character, they
had multiple, obviously forvarious different reasons, and
they were all about 13 inchestall, so just a little bit
bigger than a Subway sandwich.
But some of the ones that theydid were actually really huge,
like Pinocchio's head, forexample.
They made a really large-scaleone of Pinocchio's head so they
(14:35):
could animate Jiminy Cricketmoving up his nose.
Yeah, because it would havebeen harder to do it in a
smaller scale.
So it's just like the thoughtand the care that sort of went
through that and it wasobviously a labor of love.
And I think kiamo has afondness for these kinds of
stories, because he's obviouslydone pinocchio now but then he's
moving now into doingfrankenstein as well, which is
sort of like another I was goingto say actually the, the, when
(14:57):
you know he's, he's drunk andmaking pinocchio, it's very
frankenstein influence, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
with the storm outside and everything.
I loved it actually, that scene.
It this time watching it.
I don't know if you've seenParks and Rec before, but
there's a.
There's a meme of like did awould a depressed person make
this?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
you've seen that one no, I haven't seen that one, but
I can definitely attest to itbecause I loved that, that
initial scene when Pinocchiofirst wakes up for the first
time.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
He's like barely human in the way that he moved
Like that is so horrific andFrankenstein-like.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
But I love that they started that way because it
shows his growth from likeliterally not knowing how to be
a human to then becoming one ofthe kindest and nicest boys to
ever walk the planet Earth.
I agree completely with youthat storm sequence outside the
scene where he's sort ofcrafting, completely
Frankenstein-like, and there area lot of similarities in that
vein too.
So I can definitely see it,yeah.
(15:51):
So let's move on.
Now We'll go to having a littlebit of a look at some of the
characters and how they sort ofgrew across the picture or
across the movie.
So, as we're looking at sort ofGeppetto, we kind of start with
him and he's like I don't knowhow to say this sensitively, but
like he's a grieving fatherbecause he's obviously lost his
(16:12):
son and I can't imagine the kindof grief that that would impart
on somebody.
But I feel like it's beenportrayed on screen just so
beautifully well, especially thetimes after Carlo passes away,
because he is very rough aroundthe edges.
Geppetto is at the start of themovie.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yeah, I mean, I hadn't seen this until a few
months ago when we talked aboutcovering it, and the first time
I watched it, that openingsequence with Carlo was my
highlight of the film.
I re-watched it again thismorning actually, and I enjoyed
the whole film more overall onthe second watch.
But yeah, the pain and emotionthey pack into that and his
(16:53):
grief afterwards is justhorrendous to watch.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Really heartbreaking.
But but you know, in a veryhuman way you have all those
feelings of frustration towardshim as well, because he is just
obviously coming from a place ofpain and grief.
He's so awful to Pinocchio inthe beginning, through such a
(17:21):
wealth and roller coaster ofemotions with him, considering
how briefly he's on screen, likelike you are straight in there
with him and and just in thiscomplete, complete turbulence
that he's obviously goingthrough as well.
But yeah, he is a flawedcharacter.
But I guess that so much ofthat exploration is is that you
know, parents are just peopletoo, trying their best, and and
(17:43):
I think there's definitely,definitely it flips a lot
between that perspective of theway parents see the world and
are trying their best and theway it's then interpreted to the
child.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it'sincredible.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, and I think that Geppetto, through his flips
and flops in grief, is part ofPinocchio's journey obviously as
well, because he's quitegrief-stricken, obviously
creates Pinocchio in that wayand he doesn't really want a
piece of him to start with, butthen he kind of embraces that
idea, thinking that he'sactually found his replacement
(18:17):
for his son.
And part of the learning thatGeppetto goes through as well is
learning that you know thatlove that he had for Carlo is
special, but it's a differentkind of love that he's going to
have to grow for Pinocchio,because Pinocchio is a different
sort of child and a verydifferent boy in that space.
But even with that sort ofdifference in his mind, I still
(18:40):
like that Geppetto sort ofchampioned and protected
Pinocchio's individualism infront of all the townspeople as
well.
So when they were calling himhorrible names and things like
that, he sort of took him homeand had words to him.
But then there was thatbeautiful scene where he's kind
of telling him a story andtucking him into bed.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
And he's treating him like a son, basically, him like
a son, basically.
So there is that element to himthat is caring towards
Pinocchio, despite the fact thatthe outside pressures are
telling him that your child isdifferent.
So that's another element ofGeppetto that I really really
connected to and liked as well,and obviously, throughout all
(19:21):
Pinocchio stories, geppetto is acharacter that is extremely
determined to find his son whenhe goes missing and and you know
, correct the mistake that hemade, which I think is something
that a lot of parents canrelate to.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
All the time, you know doing your best, basically
and I think you know obviously Isaid he was, he was awful to
pinocchio.
But I will say it's no offenseto anyone who has kids and I'm
sure this is yourself includedbut those early scenes when
pinocchio first wakes up is likethe best advert for me not to
have children.
It's like horrifying, it's likejust carnage toddler just
smashing the place that's aTuesday in this house it was
(19:51):
more the it's the screaming forthe hot chocolate.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
I was like, oh no, that was so real but but yeah, I
like even that that part there,when he's screaming for the hot
chocolate.
And you know, podesto, podestro, podesto, he's, he's there and
and so screaming for the hotchocolate, and you know, pedesto
, pedestro, pedesto, he's thereand so is the priest.
Geppetto was kind of liketrying to play face and he was
just like no, no, go and sitover there.
And then he's just like here,have the hot chocolate.
It's like what parent hasn'tdone that?
(20:14):
It's just like go, yeah, I meanlike it would definitely be
what I'd do.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
But, you're just saying as well about him just
trying to replace Carlo and thenaccepting Pinocchio.
I guess he drowns his grief indrink and then he still isn't
dealing with it.
With Pinocchio he's just likegreat, I've replaced Carlo, I've
just put a plaster over it.
But it's not actually until hedeals with it and lets Carlo go
(20:40):
that he can love Pinocchio inthe way that he actually should.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Yeah, and I think a big person in helping him get
through that is obviouslyPinocchio, but also the cricket,
which is Sebastian J Cricket orsomething like that in this one
.
Not Jiminy like usual, he's sogood played by Ewan McGregor.
I think they cast him perfectly.
Yeah, absolutely.
He's got that English sort ofdeadpan delivery in his comedy,
but he's also very emotionallyheartfelt in the way that he
(21:05):
speaks as well.
Yeah, I think that jiminycricket.
He also said you know very,very critical line in the movie.
He said you know the boy lovesyou for who you are.
Is it too much for you to dothe same for him?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
basically so I'm gonna say that scene.
It's like you know, we seethese kind of renditions all the
time of people's like brains orconscious, like them, talking
to them from an outsidemanifestation.
But yeah, that was obviouslylike when you think that's his
conscience talking that's himhaving a go at himself.
Really it's yeah, it's a reallyamazing scene.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yeah, yeah, and I also like that they didn't play
Sebastian Cricket in this asthat, the same way that they did
Jiminy basically in theoriginal Disney, not only by
design, but he sort of startedthe others grow and it just goes
to show how many livesPinocchio kind of touched in the
way that he was so individuallyand unapologetically himself
(22:13):
and I really liked how he, likeSebastian, would advocate for
Pinocchio in that sort of mannerand, as you said as well, you
know he is that sort ofconscience on the side and but
he's also sort of his owncharacter.
You said as well, you know heis that sort of conscience on
the side and but he's also sortof his own character as well.
But he plays that consciencecharacter not only for pinocchio
but also for geppetto.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
I think that's that's really awesome part of his
character and himself really,because I think he, you know,
like his motivations do change,as you say, and he grows and
there's something, yeah, verynice about just trying to
observe life and write about itwith those kind of motivations
and then actually realizing youwant to be a part of it.
Yeah, all very beautiful.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Absolutely and I think that at the two things I
think them putting the runninggag in that you just get
squished all the time is when hestarts to try and sing.
A song is great.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Actually because Hugh McGregor's voice is amazing.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
So you're like oh great.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Cut it short, yeah, because Hugh McGregor's voice is
amazing.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So you're like, oh great, cut it short.
Yeah, that's it.
But then the second thing is atthe end, when he starts trying
to present his life in thisscholarly manner, he ends up
sort of giving away a wish thatcould give him really anything
to bring back Pinocchio, whichis the complete selfless act act
and an amazing turnaround forthat sort of character to go
through as well.
So I think sebastian is justyeah, I'm gonna say it, I think
(23:26):
he's better than jiminy yeah, no, he is, he is, you know, the.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
There's obviously a lot more depth to this version
and he is a much more roundedand interesting character
because he's, he's, goes on hisown journey, like you say, where
original jiminy's just yeah,he's kind of all time absolutely
he's pushing that obedience,isn't he, which is good boys do
this.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
And actually he does start off that way as well,
because he, he says to toPinocchio.
He says you must obey, you haveto do as your papa says.
And then Pinocchio turns around, says, but I don't want to do
what my papa says.
And then he goes okay, well,then you must do your best and
that's all you can do.
So yeah, I think it was veryearly on that we learned that
Pinocchio kind of wasn't goingto move in the same sort of
(24:09):
transitional way as the originalPinocchio did Like, to the
point where, at the end of this,when they're talking about him
being a real boy, it looked verydifferent in this movie as well
.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, he's still his puppet self.
It's just, you know, mortal toan extent.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
It's not necessarily defined in clear-cut terms.
Yeah, yeah, I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah, I thought that was interesting because I think
it would have been in thisversion to go through all of
that exploration of acceptinghim for who he is.
It would have then been totallyoff to to change his form.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I absolutely agree, because I think he not only
learned to accept himself well,he always accepted himself it
was kind of the environmentaround him that was needing to
sort of go through thatacceptance.
But then for him to then conformto that environment by looking
like everybody else, I thinkyou're right.
I think it would have beentotally off.
I think the real boy elementfor me comes from he actually
(25:02):
learned how to feel, I guess,and mature in his sort of
feelings, because at the startyou know he's demanding hot
chocolate, he's acting onimpulse, he's sort of
emotionally loud all the time,and then he sort of learns to
become very empathetic becausehe's obviously expressing a lot
of emotions as a very emotionalbeing.
But then the flip side of thatis you also sort of can
(25:24):
recognize a lot of thoseemotions from other people which
he ends up doing.
One thing from Pinocchio thatsort of did strike me in this is
the concept of howconditionally loved he is at
times, which I think is veryevident in the Volpe sort of arc
, when he's being used basicallyand exploited for his talent.
But then even, I think, forGeppetto, as we were saying
(25:46):
before, he is very well lovedwhen he's acting good like Carlo
, did be a good boy like Carlo,but then when he was presenting
behaviours that were consideredobtrusive, then he would be
called a burden, and I thinkthat that sort of conditional
love is something that wasreally sort of stood out to me
as well as a theme in this movie.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And I think it's obviously evenmore sort of I can't think of
what the word is sort ofprevalent in Geppetto, literally
like creating Pinocchio in onenight.
It's kind of like he didn't.
You look at parenthood andthings, and people don't ask to
be brought into the world.
If you're making that choiceyou can't then you know you have
(26:26):
the responsibility and you'vegot to got to love them
unconditionally really so it's,yeah, a really interesting part
of both of their journeys reallyand it definitely explains.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
You know, in the 1940 disney version you get the
impression planicchio just runsoff because he wants, he's got
all of that temptation, whereasthis is much more about him
wanting validation and and loveand approval really yeah, that's
such a good point as amasterful change in my opinion
as well, because it it excuse myignorance of pinocchio from the
(26:56):
1940s, but it kind of changeshim from being that sort of
brattish, childlike sort ofcharacter, which I do say that
he expressed a lot of innocenceof childhood there, but also can
come off as a little bitbrattish to this kid that really
just wants that acceptance andwants and he's also kind of
ignorant to it as well at thestart.
But as his journey goes on hekind of realizes that he doesn't
really fit in in places and hisjourney is how can he be
(27:21):
himself and fit in this world ofof fascist italy?
And I think guillermo did anamazing job by putting it in
that kind of environment,because that environment and
that part of history in infascist italy was all about
control and obedience formity.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah, and all of pinocchio's behavior is coming
from a place of curiosity.
They say you've got to obeyyour father?
Why?
Well, you just have to, youhave to go.
They say you've got to obeyyour father why?
Well, you just have to.
You have to go to schoolbecause you just have to.
He's not allowed to questionanything.
Yeah, and obviously with thebackdrop of fascist Italy,
people are not actually allowedto question the system and have
(27:59):
their own.
There's even a line actuallyisn't there from I've forgotten
the character's name where hesays oh, he's a free-thinking
individual spirit.
We don't like that.
Yeah, we don't like that at all.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
I thought it was really interesting just to
mention off your point thatPinocchio was displaying all
these abhorrent qualities ofindividualism.
And then, you know, podestro'sanswer to that was send him to
school.
I thought that was pretty funny.
It was just like, well, that'llturn him into, you know, a
smart boy.
And then Pedestro's conditionallove we might say for Pinocchio
(28:30):
then enhances when he realizesthat he can be useful in a
warlike environment.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, that was the first time I watched this.
It was a bit of a because Iwent in quite blind, so it of a
like because I.
I went in quite blind so it wasa bit of a shock to have this
backdrop, but you know it, itjust, it just really works and
it definitely works thematicallywith with everything else going
on.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
No, I think combining pinocchio and candlewick, as
well as two different sort ofchildhood characters, together,
was really smart, becausecandlewick's obviously a product
of the system and pinocchio isdefinitely not.
So putting them together, youcan see the absolute differences
between the two boys.
But then there's that beautifulscene where they're sort of in
their bunks and they're talkingabout how they reflect upon how
(29:15):
their fathers treat them, andyou could say that they both
have experienced very similarthings in terms of their their
fathers treating them aparticular way, and obviously
one coming from a place ofextreme grief and one coming
from conformity to agovernmental oppressive system.
And I think that, even thoughthey have those differences,
(29:35):
pinocchio and Candlewick arestill able to connect on the
fact that they really just wantto be loved by their father for
who they are.
And it gets to the point whereCandlewick actually says at the
end, when he's confronted withthe the choice of of shooting
pinocchio, he said I may beafraid and I may be weak in your
eyes, but I can still say no toyou.
And he learns that frompinocchio, which I think is
(29:55):
absolutely beautiful and goesback to the point where we were
talking about how pinocchioliterally changes everybody he
touches through his individualself, which is a beautiful
reflection of, and also abeautiful advocation of being
yourself in different sort ofsituations, especially
oppressive ones.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
So I found it.
I've noticed it more this time.
I found it a bit of a shamethat they don't really explain
what happens to candlewick, likeyou see that I think he crawls
out of the wreckage after thatexplosion but he doesn't come
back again I suppose you knowkind of that's war.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Maybe he doesn't and I think that I think his, his
story purpose you might say,kind of ended there where you
can sort of say you know he's,he's done that sort of purpose
for pinocchio and he inpinocchio's story.
But for pinocchio, poor thing,he went from that environment
straight to being, you know,strapped to a piece of wood by
volpe and lit on fire.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
So that sort of thing and obviously spazitura is very
like similar sort of story toto what candlewick's going
through with his father and thatyou know, those scenes are sort
of back to back of him finallystanding up to to volpe and yeah
, I mean, I say him, I don'tknow spazitura is yeah, I'm not
sure either.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I'm not sure if they've they gender or them.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
See who it was voiced by then.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Yeah, absolutely, and .
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Cate Blanchett, which is amazing.
It blew my mind because thewood spirit and death.
I thought that was CateBlanchett because I do get her
and Tilda Swinton's voicesconfused quite a lot.
And then I IMDb'd it and I waslike, yeah, there's Cate
Blanchett, okay yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
No, it okay.
Yeah, no, I I.
I saw an interview with her andshe is a massive fan of
guillermo's work and he sheheard that he was working on
this movie, pinocchio, and hesaid I will do any part that he
will give me.
And he said, well, I only reallyhave, because he was gonna.
He was gonna do sound effectsfor spazitore.
And he said I really only have.
Like, I could do spazitore, youcould do the voice of a monkey.
And she goes I I'll do it.
Yeah, so she just loves workingwith him so much and I can
attest that I would do anythingto be a part of this movie too.
(31:50):
But it has a pretty phenomenalvoice cast too.
You know, obviously we saidEwan McGregor.
There's David Bradley asGeppetto, who was obviously Mr
Filch in Harry Potter.
Ron Perlman, who is a frequentcollaborator with Guillermo del
Toro.
He was Hellboy and he playedPodesto.
His deep voice can't bemistaken for anybody.
But then also Finn Wolfhardfrom Stranger Things.
(32:12):
Yeah, he was, what would yousay now Candlewick.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Yeah, yeah, he's a really nice voice, it's good.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yeah, oh, and obviously Christoph Waltz as
well, whose voice isunmistakable.
All right, Were you ready totalk about your most valuable
takeaways from the movie Tia?
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think for me it's thefinal line of the film.
That's when it sort of reallyhad the big impact on me.
Is that what happens happensand then we're gone.
And obviously the film doesexplore life and our purpose and
death and all of those things.
Just as a side note.
The death sort of sequences arebeautiful.
(32:53):
I really death and all of thosethings.
Just as a side note the deathsort of sequences are beautiful.
I really really loved all ofthose.
But yeah, I guess you've evengot the sand timers there and
this concept of us all being onborrowed time and it being short
and what you're going to dowith that time.
And I think it's reallyinteresting that the film
explores religion and thenobviously fascism and these
(33:14):
ideas of higher powers thatpeople are serving, but
ultimately, the one that mattersis is your loved ones and and
being selfless and and livingfor other people and and just
just appreciating the life youhave as well.
And I think on the flip side ofthat, you know, this idea that
it's fleeting also explores thatyou can find life after grief,
(33:37):
obviously for geppetto,pinocchio at the end as well,
continuing without all of hisfriends and just, yeah, the
beauty of that and yeah, I thinkjust all of those those scenes
tie in beautifully and that wassort of what really hit me most
in the film yeah, I, I agree,because I feel like that's also
a lesson that Pinocchio learnsthrough the movie as well,
(33:57):
because those first few timesthat he well, the first time
obviously it was a bit of ashock, but then after that the
way he talks about death is justlike, yeah, I've died lots of
times, it's fine.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
And he ends up then making those sort of sacrifices
because he kind of knows thatthere is no consequence, you
might say, to those kinds ofsacrifices, but what makes them
a sacrifice is that you'relosing something pretty
significant.
And then he, he actually comesto that conclusion when he
obviously has to give up hisimmortality to save geppetto at
(34:24):
that time.
So I I think that that that isa beautiful takeaway.
But it's also a beautifullesson that the characters sort
of go through in this space andI completely agree, those
sequences of death and even likethe sand timers and and how
beautifully backlit thoseplaying animated characters are
in that space, and the rabbitsas well, and just they kind of
flipped it on that sort oftongue-in-cheek, humorous tone
(34:45):
at that point.
One of my favorite sort ofdeath scenes that sort of
happened was when pinocchio gotshot, but then it sort of it
snapped from the gunshot to him,just busting out of the coffin.
There he is, it's you again yeah, exactly, and then you know,
obviously Sebastian's thereplaying cards with them at the
end.
But I really love the fact thatGuillermo was able to explore
(35:06):
grief and obviously death, butthen the meaning of life through
that as well, and the fact thatit, as you said, that sort of
fleeting instance that makes itimportant and the fact that you
know Pinocchio ends up carryingSebastian with him always, you
know, in his heart.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Oh God yeah, that broke me.
Yeah, really broke me, andobviously it then finishes on
the acorn as well like abeautiful cyclical thing as well
, and I think it sort ofexplores the what happens
happens and then we're gone.
It's the accepting that we all,we all have to go at some point
.
Also, I guess the kind of themeaningless of life.
(35:41):
But what then, on the flip side, what gives our life meaning?
And I think the exploration ofreligion, like I said, is really
interesting.
I think the fact carlo getsblown up in a church in a random
act that wasn't supposed tohappen, without any real meaning
to it.
It's just.
It's kind of like exploring howthat kind of is how it goes.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
There were kind of a few sort of religious parallels
in the movie as well, especiallywhere, you know, pinocchio
first saw the efficacy of Jesusin the church and he says he's
wooden and they all love him.
Why don't they love me?
I thought that was reallybrilliant and really sort of
insightful.
But then also, as the moviewent on, I sort of started to
notice from that point on thesimilarities between that jesus
(36:24):
effigy and pinocchio as he sortof traveled along the film,
because when volpe sort ofstraps him to the piece of wood
he's obviously in a sort ofcrucifix situation there, and
then after he gets blown upafter fighting the dogfish, he's
missing the same arm as theJesus at the start was missing
too.
So I'm not sure what they'resort of going for there, but
even like the resurrection, youknow that he sort of goes
(36:46):
through at that point.
Yeah, that might be somethingI'll have to sort of dive a
little bit deeper into, but Ithink that there's definitely
some some undertones there thatneed to be explored and it might
just be, you know, back ontothat life, death and and fate
and destiny sort of situations.
But yeah, I think that that'sreally really, really insightful
.
All right, my takeaway was thatobviously, uniqueness isn't a
(37:08):
flaw to be corrected, but it isa truth to be embraced, and it
kind of speaks to, obviously,children that are kind of
emotionally intense.
And I can relate to thisbecause I was a child that was
pretty emotionally intense attimes, being told that you're
too disruptive, too sensitive,too emotional, especially as a
guy as well.
(37:29):
That's kind of the transitionthat I went through with this
movie and I like the fact thatwhen they looked at pinocchio in
this film, it didn't frame itas like a deficit, because he
was obviously trying to behimself in this and he was sort
of the world kind of refused tomake space for for pinocchio in
that that space, and when hecouldn't replace carlo, he's
(37:50):
obviously seeking thatconnection as well, because in
the film pinocchio actually saidwas carlo a good boy and
geppetto said yes and he goeswell, I'll be just like carlo,
because he kind of wants thatconnection and he wants that
affection and that kind ofresembled like masking to me,
like, and and also especiallywhen he was performing in front
of everybody and he was just sohappy.
(38:12):
And you look at his sort of face, as soon as the curtain closes
because he's away from hisfather and the the score
undertoning, you know, the papasong, he's obviously really sad,
but then in front of everybodyhe's just so happy all the time.
So I kind of spoke to that sortof masking quality that a lot
of neurodivergent children sortof go through as well.
And then, you know, there wasthe painful line of why can't
you be a good boy just likecarlo?
(38:33):
It kind of reflects thatexperience that a lot of parents
go through, where they struggleto accept a child that's sort
of neurodivergent and theexpectations of sort of society
on those neurodivergent kids.
And especially with geppetto,because it was like he was a man
that was unlearning the beliefthat love has to be earned
through conformity.
He had to learn to lovepinocchio for who he is and not
(38:55):
for what he wanted him to be orwhat he thought he could be, and
I thought that was justbeautifully represented in this
movie wow, that's.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
That's really beautiful and um all makes
perfect sense.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Yeah, amazing yeah, I that's like I really really
enjoy this, take and love thismovie because I feel like it
speaks to a lot of differenthuman qualities and I feel like
it's so amazing because anybodythat watches it can obviously
take something different from it.
But also, each time you watchit, you could take something
different from it, not justvisually but also thematically.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
It's so layered and rich.
I was just admiring on therewatch today.
Rich, isn't it?
Like even just I was justadmiring on the rewatch today,
like obviously you've got the,the genius decision to make
everyone to use puppets to havea film about a puppet, but
obviously with the backdrop ofthe war.
People are just puppets in warand propaganda.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
So yeah, I mean that you can just, yeah, layers and
layers and layers and layersit's so clever and I think that,
yeah, the most beautiful partfor me is obviously the fact
that they didn't make him a realboy at the end.
I really love that part because, as you touched on, you know,
if he changed it wouldn't havefit the tone of the film.
But also, he's real because hefeels and he is loved because of
(40:03):
who he is and not for who heturns into or how obedient he is
, and you know, he can behimself safely and fully and
without shame, and that's that'sprobably the most beautiful
part of this story that I sortof came across.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
I yeah, I'm gonna have to watch it again yeah in
mind now well, I I hope thatit's a good rewatch because, as
we said, you know you can takeit into lots of different spaces
.
But, yeah, okay, tia, I want toreally thank you for joining me
.
This has been an amazing andbeautiful chat about a movie
that I really do hold dear, andthank you for coming on the
podcast.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
You're so welcome.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Did you want to just tell us where everybody on the
internet can find you as well,and we'll have all these notes
in the show notes for everybodyas well.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
This is tia jackson guys yeah, so you can find me on
social media.
So instagram, freds and bluesky at the alien effect pod, or
you can email me at the alieneffect pod at gmailcom.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
So, yeah, feel free to get in touch and yeah, enjoy
geek out with a lot of differentguests that tia has, so you do
weekly episodes, tia fortnightly, but I I might be spacing out a
bit more because it's timeconsuming Absolutely, and you
know we talked a little bitabout it at the start, but it's
a really big undertaking.
You know we do this to express aneed or because we love it so
(41:23):
much, but it does take a littlebit of time and I really do
appreciate your time today to beon the show.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
It's been an absolute joy, honestly.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Yeah, I'll happily chat any times.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Thank you, you're always welcome as well if you
want to.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Yeah absolutely, and yeah, that's it for me.
I'll catch you guys later.
Thanks, that was tia jacksonfrom the alien effect podcast,
and we discussed everything todo with pinocchio.
One of the things that reallyresonated with me in that
episode, guys, was how much wediscussed pinocchio wanting to
be accepted for his true self.
(41:57):
It's because of this that theFandom Portals podcast is, from
now on, going to be doingmulti-episode runs on a single
most valuable takeaway or theme,and we'll be fitting various
different movies into that theme, various different movies into
that theme.
So what this means is, for thenext three to four weeks, we're
going to be looking at filmsthat really focus on the theme
(42:18):
of becoming your true self, andBrash and I are going to be
looking at three to fourdifferent movies, one per
episode that really exploresdifferent facets of that theme
of becoming your true self.
We're approaching 50 episodes,guys, and we're also approaching
one year of the Fandom Portalspodcast and we've evolved quite
a lot through that time.
So if you've been on thisjourney with us, please send us
(42:40):
an email because we will bereading some out on our 50th
episode celebration.
Thank you to those people whohave stuck around, to new
followers and old.
We really do appreciate yourlistenership, and the community
that we've built here at FandomPortals is an open one.
That is one of my favoriteplaces to discuss all the things
that I love, so thank you formaking it so welcoming.
(43:01):
Thank you for interacting withus online and also through our
podcasts and YouTube channels.
There's much more to come fromthe Fandom Portals podcast guys.
We want to thank you for beinga part of the journey so far.
We hope you enjoy the new formatcoming forward, which is
focusing on various differentthemed arcs as we move forward.
So please make sure that youfollow, check out all the links
(43:23):
in the show notes for anyupdates and also join our
mailing list, which is on ourwebsite at
wwwfandomportalspodcastcom.
With that mailing list, we'llsend you one email a month that
tells you everything that'scoming up on the podcast, and
you'll also be the first one toknow about any giveaways that we
have and any special guests wehave coming up on the show.
(43:44):
So go and head to that websiteand become a part of the
community today.
We'll catch you next time.
All right, bye-bye.
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