The World of Hollywood Stunts with Stephen Koepfer. Insights and Safety on Set

Summary
Aaron interviews veteran stunt performer Steven Koepfer, who shares his journey into the world of stunts and martial arts. They discuss the importance of safety in stunt work, the various roles within the stunt industry, and the evolving perception of stunts in Hollywood. Steven also provides insights into his experiences working on major films like John Wick, Ray Donovan, The Walking Dead and upcoming Hollywood productions Eugine the Machine and  Caught Stealing. He emphasizes the importance of taking opportunities and managing risks in the stunt profession.

Guest: Stephen Koepfer, Stunt Performer/Co-ordinator

Podcast: Film Fights with Friends

Takeaways: 

• Steven Koepfer's journey into stunts was inspired by iconic films.
• Martial arts played a crucial role in Steven's stunt career.
• Safety is a top priority in stunt work, with a focus on risk management.
• The relationship between stunt doubles and actors can greatly impact performance.
• TV shows often have tighter schedules, increasing pressure on stunt performers.
• Stunt coordinators have significant responsibilities regarding safety and planning.
• Pain management is a common challenge for stunt performers.
• The stunt industry is evolving, with increasing recognition and respect.

Sound Bites:

"The biggest thing to look out for is complacency. More injuries happen on the stuff we consider easy day-to-day stuff." - Stephen Koepfer

"Safety is a team sport, it's not one person. Everyone on set should feel empowered to speak up if something seems unsafe." - Stephen Koepfer

"I was nervous. I was now on John Wick 2, the biggest set I'd ever been on. A lot of people are watching, you know, this rookie, how is he going to handle that pressure?" - Stephen Koepfer

Chapters
05:36 Steven Koepfer's Journey into Stunts
08:44 The Role of Martial Arts in Stunt Performance
11:15 Working on John Wick and the Stunt Industry
17:42 Understanding Stunt Roles and Responsibilities
23:21 Becoming a Stunt Coordinator
26:41 Safety in Stunts and Managing Risks
37:41 Pain Management and Wear and Tear in Stunt Work
41:49 Differences Between TV and Film Stunt Work
48:25 The Relationship Between Stunt Doubles and Actors
54:05 Future Aspirations in the Stunt Industry
56:38 The Changing Perception of Stunts in Hollywood
01:02:22 Final Takeaway and Advice for Aspiring Stunt Performers

Apple Tags: 

Stunt Performer, Martial Arts, Film Industry, John Wick, Safety on Set, Stunt Coordination, Hollywood Stunts, Action Movies, Film Fig

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone.
It's Aaron here from the FandomPortals podcast.
This week's episode, we featurestunt performer and coordinator
Stephen Keffer.
He is an amazing guest tolisten to, guys.
He's actually worked on lots ofprojects, everything from John
Wick 2 all the way from theWalking Dead and anything in
between.
In this episode, we talk abouthis breadth of work.

(00:20):
We also talk about how to keepsafe on sets when you're
performing stunts, and you canreally hear his passion for the
industry, guys.
He's a martial artist by tradeas well, and he also gives us
some really great insights atthe end of the podcast that
inspires others to go ahead andfollow their dream, because he

(00:41):
turned his niche martial artsform into a career.
So if you love this podcast,guys, we would love for you to
share it with a friend, and wehope you enjoy this episode with
Stephen Kepfer.

(01:07):
Welcome to the Fandom Portalspodcast, the podcast that
explores how fandoms can help uslearn and grow.
I'm Aaron, a teacher andlifelong film fan, and each week
we are on this podcast toexplore the stories that we love
, to learn more about ourselvesand the world that shapes us.
Today we're diving into thehigh-impact world of stunts with
someone who has thrown punches,dodged bullets and leapt off

(01:28):
buildings for their favoritecharacters.
Joining us today is theincredible Stephen Kepfer, a
veteran stunt performer, martialartist and fight choreographer.
Stephen's worked on everythingfrom American Horror Story, ray
Donovan, to the Blacklist.
With a resume full ofaction-packed titles and a
passion for the craft, he's oneof the people who's making magic
truly physical.
How are you going today,stephen?

(01:48):
It's good to have you on thepodcast.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
Hey, great to be here , man.
I'm glad to be coming here tohappen.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, me too.
Me too.
First of all, I wanted to plug,and give you a chance to plug,
your podcast, which is the FilmFights with Friends.
That which is the Film Fartswith Friends, that is a passion
project of yours.
Did you want to give us alittle bit of a rundown on what
that's all about?

Speaker 2 (02:08):
Well, sure, thanks, man.
My partner, paul Veraci, who'salso a stunt performer, started
this, well, you know, over ayear ago.
Basically, the short story isI've been on.
I had been on like over 50podcasts in the last, you know
not like, not last year,obviously, but 50 podcasts in
the last, you know, not like notlast year, obviously, but like
over the last decade or so.
And a longtime editor that Iwork with started a small studio

(02:31):
here in New York with a soundengineer, rich Butler, and they
were tired of working foreverybody else.
They started their own smallstudio and they were like Steve,
you've been on so many podcasts, you need to have your own
podcast, all right.
So I was like, ok, so like I doeverything.
I said, hey, you've been on somany podcasts, you need to have
your own podcast now, right.
So I was like, okay, so like Ido everything.
I said, hey, paul, you want todo a podcast.
So Paul was like, yeah, let'sdo it.
And honestly, that's how itstarted and we wanted to you

(02:56):
know, not do a quote, unquotestunt podcast.
We wanted to do more of afilmmaking podcast.
So we do talk about stunts alot, obviously, but we have
actors, directors, makeupartists you know anybody from
any craft in the filmmakingbusiness will come on our show.
The central kernel is fightscenes.
So every episode starts with afight scene that the guest was

(03:17):
involved with in some way, andthen we organically go from
there.
We try to start with how thefight scene is written in the
script and take it all the waythrough to the final cut what
changed, what didn't, how'd youget there?
And then you know then aboutour guest's career in the
industry and like wherever.
It's a pretty organicconversation.
We don't do any pre-interviewsor anything like that.

(03:39):
We just let it fly, you know.
So it's been fun.
It's been fun, I think we're.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
This weekend we'll be recording episodes 37 and 38
yeah, I've been able to catch acouple of episodes and I like
the fact that, on the YouTubesat least, you have like a table
in the middle of you two guysand you change up the decor of
the table for every guest thatyou have.
I think that's really, reallyunique.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
It's really good we try to bring in.
Like Paul, my partner is alsohardcore into collectibles.
He has a small business withanother partner and I've always
been, since I was a kid I wasStar Wars figures, right, just
collecting stuff.
So I have, we both.
Between the two of us, wealmost always have something for
the table that fits our guests,you know.

(04:22):
So, like, for example, thisweekend.
By the time, I don't know whenthis drops, but this episode
that we're recording thisweekend won't drop until
September.
But we're doing a remake roundtable, right.
So it's.
We have two prior guests comingon.
They're not telling us whattheir choices are, but it's
their favorite remake and theirleast favorite remake, right?
Oh, nice.
So, and none of us know whatthe others are choosing, right?

(04:45):
So I know for myself, I'mpicking the thing as my favorite
remake, and then one of myleast favorite remakes will be
peter jackson's king kong.
But I was at the premiere forpeter jackson's king kong, so I
have all this cool stuff to puton the table.
You know, like from from thepremiere.
So yeah, we try to, we try tocustomize it.
You know, if I have a star warsthing, we, we try to customize
it.
You know, if I have a Star Warsthing, we have Star Wars.

(05:06):
If we do, if we know we'redoing.
You know Christmas, we do thewhole Charlie Brown.
We put Christmas lights allover our table and stuff.
We try to dress it up eachepisode, personalize it a bit.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah, that's good.
We have that in common with theStar Wars figurines too.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
I definitely grew up with a couple of those.
I don't know if any of themwould be worth any money, though
, because I played with themuntil they were dirty and yuck.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
I'm a nerd, you have her on a boat, buy one to keep
in the box one to open up andplay with.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
That's smart.
I have this one right here.
Hold on, I have this one.
This one is an original.
Empire Strikes Back theCogtower pilot.
But what makes it valuable isthey say that Free revenge of
the Jedi figure with six proofsof purchase.
This is before the recall, whenthey were promoting Revenge of
the Jedi.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
Oh, instead of Return of the Jedi.
Yeah, exactly, yeah, wow.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
And I saved this one from when I was a kid.
I bought this and never openedit, and now it's like branded
and all protected.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
I was going to say it looks clean, as that's so good,
totally.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
We're nerds like that .
I think our podcast strikes anice balance between technical
know-how of filmmaking and also,you know, the nerd factor.
And then every once in a whilewe'll do a Stephen Paul only
episode where we kind of justdive into our nerd, our nerd
selves more.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
It sounds good.
All right, if you haven'tfollowed it already, listeners,
make sure you go and check outthe Film Fights podcast.
Steve, I want to wind it back abit because you are very
passionate about the stunts andin the stunt world and martial
arts.
I want to know what was yourpath into the stunt world like.
Were there any movies or heroesthat sort of inspired you to
jump into the craft?

Speaker 2 (06:53):
yeah, 100 man, I mean like any kid born, and I was
born in the late 60s, so by thetime I started really paying
attention it was the spielbergyears, you know.
It was like, and or at leastthe 80s, 70s and 80s movies.
So Empire Strikes Back morethan Star Wars itself, although
Star Wars was certainly an epicmoment for me.
I, you know, I definitelyremember going to see that with

(07:15):
my father and we were actuallyon a road trip, you know, my dad
, every year we'd do like thisfather-son trip somewhere.
And then this movie came out,star Wars.
We're like, oh, let's go checkthat out.
You know it's like, oh my God.
And back then I was like, youknow, you had to wait, wait,
wait, wait, another three yearstill the next one came out.
And then when Empire came out,I was blown away.

(07:37):
Still my favorite of all the IP, with the exception, I say, of
like probably Rogue One is mynumber two now.
But then, and then just thatyear, the next year came out
Raiders of the Lost Ark, andthat really really tapped into
something about me as a13-year-old boy and like my
ideas of manhood and adventureand like all this kind of stuff.

(07:59):
And then by then I kind of knewI wanted to be a filmmaker or
somehow involved in film andlike so at that time I was kind
of day camp, you know, as a kid,but my parents were sending me
to filmmaking camp.
So already back then we wereshooting every summer we would
script to screen, shoot and editsomething.
As you know kids and they wereI guess our counselors were the

(08:22):
film students at, like, new YorkInstitute of Technology here
but so I really got into it.
And then, you know, my fatherhad a Super 8 camera so we would
shoot stuff on film andactually edit it, you know, with
scotch tape and scissors andmake our own little films.
So I wanted to be into it, forinto this business forever
basically.

(08:42):
But I kind of didn't want to bea performer, I wanted to be the
makeup guy.
Like back then my library, mybedroom library, was like all
the behind the scenes, thehow-to, the makeup.
And then I'd say the next moviethat really was influential to
me was American War from London.
Oh, nice, john Landis.
Like that movie blew me away.

(09:04):
You know that movie blew meaway.
You know that movie blew meaway and, you know, never went
back.
Man, you know, I ended up as aperformer because of martial
arts.
Like, martial arts kind ofbrought me there, you know.
But before I ever startedperforming stunts, I was already
making documentaries and andother things, like from behind
the cameras.
And then, you know, one day alight bulb went out because a

(09:25):
stunt coordinator I met said oh,you should really think about
stunts.
You've got all this skill andyou've got all this skill.
You should put it together.
And that was 2014 or somethinglike that.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yeah, yeah, so 2013, something like that I was gonna
ask about your, your martialarts background, because I
wanted to know if that sort ofnaturally sort of wove itself
into your film career.
And obviously you spoke thenabout some early mentors that
helped you sort of break intothe industry.
Did you want to discuss howthat sort of pathway and that

(09:55):
avenue of martial arts hashelped you along the way?

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Sure, I mean martial arts.
My life, like a lot of peoplein this business, my life has
been, all you know, my windingroad of other careers and things
that I've done before.
I actually was able to make aliving as a martial artist and
then as a in the film industry.
But I started martial arts whenI was seven or eight.
My mom put me in like karatedaycare.

(10:18):
You know.
I was a lash key camp.
Both my parents worked.
And then my mom was a professorat Queens College she's a
geneticist and a biologyprofessor Ashkey camp both my
parents worked.
And then my mom was a professorat Queens College.
She's a geneticist and abiology professor.
So she would.
They had a program at thecollege for faculty kids, you
know you could put them in there.
So I went into karate, notasking for it, but that's just
where she put me, planted theseed, you know.

(10:43):
And then by the time I was inhigh school I started on my own
training and I did that for acouple of years, gathered no
expertise, you know, likeseven-year-old kid, seven
eight-year-old kid.
But by the time I got to highschool and I could choose for
myself what I wanted to do, Iwent back to martial arts Been
ever since.
So back then it was Taekwondoand that was like great Olympic
Taekwondo.
That was Taekwondo.

(11:09):
That was when Taekwondo was inthe Olympics.
So I did that for many yearsand then, you know, I got my
black belt and I was teachingthat for a while.
Then I moved over to Sanshao,which is Chinese kickboxing,
like Sandah Sanshao it'sbasically like MMA without the
wrestling, it's just kick out,punching and throwing, and I did
that for many years.
And then I met my Samba coachin 1989 and it's been Samba ever
since.
And then in 2003, I opened myown school.
So I've been running my ownschool.

(11:30):
And then in 2000, like 2005, Iquit my day job to do that, to
take the leap and do that fulltime, you know, to see if it
worked.
And it worked, you know that'sso good.
Yeah, and I was studying Samba.
For those who don't know, it'sa russian style, it's basically
like john wick they try toemulate as a sambo guy.

(11:50):
In fact his character issupposed to be a sambo guy and
that's how I got to work onthose movies.
But you know, before I actuallygot into the industry officially
, seven was my first real joband it was on the tv show human
weapon, which was where theywould travel around the world
and do all the different martialarts and stuff.
And I was an advisor on thesambo episode.
Right, they found me because ofmy youtube channel.

(12:14):
So, like you know, in 2005 Istarted, I started putting up
sambo instructionals on youtubeand then they found me and then
a couple years later I I get acall from Chad Stahelski, who is
people who know he's thedirector, you know, the
co-founder of 8711 and thedirector, the first John Wick

(12:34):
and he I got a call andbasically invited me to work on
the movie as a consultant.
Come by the rehearsals.
We need, we wanted to, we wantto see how a Sambo person would
do certain things.
I wasn't even in the screenactress guild yet, so it was
like all just come on by andhang out and and see how you
like it.
But when I asked him how hefound me, he said he was always

(12:55):
subscribed, sharing youtubechannel man.
I was like, oh, this is awesome, you know.
So for everybody out there, yoursocial media is really
important, you know like I don'tconsider youtube social media,
but at the time it was kind ofsocial media ish.
You know we didn't really havelike what we have now back then.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
But yeah, it's be careful, what you put out there
it could, it could help you, itcould hurt you, yeah I
definitely agree, yeah yeah, inmy case it helped big time yeah,
I think it's a really great wayfor like exposure, obviously in
the early days for you withyour your work on on john wick.
You mentioned that that wasprobably one of the first sort
of film sets that you worked on.

(13:33):
Is that correct?
And if if so, like what wasthat experience like when you
went there?
You went on as a sambo coach.
What was the day-to-day likefor you is what I'm sort of
asking sure?

Speaker 2 (13:44):
well, I, when I when I worked on 2, john Wick 2, I
was never on set.
I was always just in rehearsalsand working with the Scott team
behind the scenes.
I was never even on the set.
So I mean, it was cool.
I got to work with JJ Perry,who was the supervising stunt
coordinator, and obviously meetKeanu Reeves and work with the
whole team, jackson Spidell andEric Brown and all these guys

(14:06):
who, like people who payattention, now know who they are
, but maybe back then theydidn't know who they were Then
and I wasn't union yet, right,so I wasn't on the set.
But then shortly after that Igot into the union and then Chad
called me and said hey, youwant to work on three, and so my
role on three was predominantlyalso not on set, although I did

(14:27):
spend a couple days on set asthe Sambo coach in the theater
the training scene in thetheater, with Angelica Eastman
in that scene, when Keanu comesback to the theater and all the
kids are training Sambo and allthe girls are training ballet,
which, of course, now is thesegue to ballerina.
Right, that's the timelinethere.

(14:48):
So, but for about two months,before that ever happened, I was
working with with 8711 oncasting all those Sambo kids.
So we were holding theauditions at my, at my gym.
At my gym and because I'm intouch with that community here
in the United States, I was ableto invite all the Russian kids

(15:09):
and Russian coaches and all thatstuff to come audition for that
scene.
And then I was also workingwith Wardrobe and you know,
basically providing them samplesof what authentic uniforms
would look like and then alsoproviding them with footage of
my training in Russia anddifferent Eastern European
countries so they can get asample of what an authentic sort

(15:33):
of, you know, like you ever see, the movie Warrior, right, with
Tom Hardy, right.
So you had the super high-techgym, and then you had the
dingy-tech gym, and then you hadthe, the dingy gym, you know,
and so the, the Savo trainingfacility in the theater, was
supposed to be closer to the gym, the type of gym, not the
high-tech, super tech soviet,you know, like rocky floor, you
know like kind of thing.

(15:53):
So it was like I had video oftraining in places like that.
So I provided that to them,worked with casting, worked with
word, I was working witheverything.
And then finally I was on setfor the for two days.
That scene was two days shootingand on set my job was to
basically what they call specialability coordinator.
So special ability performersare they're above background but

(16:16):
they're below stunts, sothey're like people in the scene
for those listening.
There are people in the scenefor those listening.
There are people in the scenethat have a skill that you want
in the scene.
So like if you know, like whenJames Bond walks into a training
facility and you got guysthrowing each other and beating
each other up and traininghand-to-hand combat in the
background, those would bespecial ability people.
Like there are people that aremaybe trying to get into the

(16:37):
union as stunt performers orthey just have a skill that we
need in the scene.
So and somebody has to tellthem what to do.
So that was me right.
So I was the one kind ofdirecting what was happening
with all those Sambo people inthat scene.
It was really, really fun.
You know it was.
It was a ton of fun, got tomeet, like it was.
It was actually Actually, Ididn't know I was going to do
that.
So I show up on set justthinking I'm going to hang out

(17:00):
and get to be a coach in thescene and then I hear on the
walkie talkie Chad is like Ineed Sambo Steve on set.
I need Sambo Steve on set.
Like Sambo Steve is my name,yep.
So I go on set and he brings meover to introduce me to the
director of photography, danLaston, and then he's like Steve

(17:22):
, this is Dan, dan is Steve.
He's like okay, so we needsomething going on over here.
We need something going on overhere.
This is how we're going toshoot it, this is where the
cameras are Okay.
And then Chad grabs a PA, givesthe PA to me and says you just
do it, you just make it happen.
Like that was it.
He just put me in charge infront of everybody.
So for me, as a new person inthe industry, that was actually
really important.
Right One, I was nervous.

(17:42):
I was nervous as heck.
Now, on a big you know this isa big movie production, biggest
set I'd ever been on, and a lotof people are watching.
You know this rookie, how is hegoing to handle that pressure?
So it was it was fun but nervewracking and but it did help me
level up.
You know, in the businessPeople saw that I don't crack
under pressure.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yeah, that's really good.
What an opportunity and what anexperience as well from Chad
Stileski to work on such a likea blockbuster movie as well, but
also to be thrown in and, youknow, put your passion and your
training to work in somethingthat was really going to be and
really combine those twoelements.
You know film and then alsomartial arts to lead that sort
of team and it obviously didwell for you as well Through

(18:23):
your discussion.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
In Stombo specifically.
Right, like, how often doesthat come along?
Like you know, people, likeeverybody in the stunt business,
gets in, sort of gets in thedoor for something, and then
they just have to start learningeverything else that they don't
know, right?
So, like, how many other Sambomovies are there going to be?
So I got lucky, like that'sthat I got in because of
fighting at Sambo.

(18:45):
But then it's like, okay, well,now I have to learn how to
drive.
Now I have to learn how to dothis.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
Now I have to let you you have to go back to drawing
board because you can't make acareer off of doing a very niche
thing.
So I was very lucky, yeah, andI think those movies as well the
John Wick franchise reallyreinvigorated the action
franchise for the modern era aswell.
They started as a very sort ofarthouse, underrated sort of

(19:10):
experience, but now they'redefinitely a staple, as you said
.
You know, the Ballerina serieshas started to come out as well.
Through your discussion there,you talked about a lot of
different sort of roles in the,the stunt profession.
Myself I'm a little bit of arookie in the in the stunt field
.
I know about stunt doubles, Iknow stunt coordinators and,
obviously, stunt performers.
What are, what are some ofthose roles that occur on set

(19:32):
for people that are into stunts,and which ones have you
preferred to perform throughyour career?

Speaker 2 (19:39):
well, basically I would say there's different
answers to that question.
So, like, from a contractualperspective, there's two
contracts.
Basically it was Screen ActorsGuild here in this country
anyway.
You can either get the stuntperformer contract or you can
get a stunt coordinator contract.
That's it.
Those are the two.
You're either the coordinatoror the performer.
But in reality you could get astunt performer contract but

(20:03):
your job role might be a stuntrigger, for example.
Right.
So like for those not thosedon't know the rigger is the
person who's handling all thewire work, all the, you know,
flying people Generally on theset.
You'll have riggers that arewith IATSE, which is the stage
and the stage workers union, andthen you have stunt riggers.

(20:26):
So basically all rigging thathas nothing to do with a human
being they handle, right.
Any rigging that has to do withflying a person or manipulating
a human being in space, thenthe stunt riggers do it.
So a stunt rigger would be onekey role.
I mean, basically they havestunt double, obviously, which

(20:46):
is still under a stunt performercontract, but you would be
doubling.
Then they have what's calledutility stunts, which is
basically you're hired to dowhatever they need.
So the people that get thosejobs are the people who are very
well-rounded.
You're a good driver, you're agood, you know.
You know some rigging.

(21:07):
You're a good fighter, you'reyou know.
You have lots of differentskills.
Maybe you're a good safetyperson.
Maybe you know fire you know,maybe you know fight
choreography.
Maybe you know how to shootthree of this you knows.
You might know how to shoot andedit 3Ds.
So if they want to hire somebodywho's going to be able to
bounce from job to job, thatwould be a utility stunts

(21:28):
contract, you know.
So under a utility stuntscontract you could also be a
stunt double, for example.
But if I want a stunt doublecontract, technically I'm not
supposed to do anything elseexcept that.
So the utility is anall-encompassing type thing.
Then you've got stuntcoordinator, right, and then
you've got what's called acovering stunt coordinator.

(21:49):
Maybe the stunt coordinatorneeds you to cover him because
he's going to be on a differentunit that day.
So you might get hired on astunt coordinator contract just
for that day or a couple of days.
The covering stunt coordinatoris not available.
Within the performer world, asmany expertise as you can think
of, there's a specialist thatdoes it.

(22:10):
You know driving people, fire,fire experts, water experts, you
name it.
There's an expertise you knowlike.
I know a guy who's aprofessional skateboarder that's
what got him in the business ora guy named Eddie Fiola.
He was actually one of theriggers when I worked on devs
for Alex Garland's TV show.

(22:31):
One of the riggers, eddie Fiola, actually got into the business
decades ago in the movie Rad.
I don't know the movie Rad theBMX movie.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's always there.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
Any Fiola is credited for creating freestyle BMX,
right, so that's what got him inthe business.
But when I met him all theseyears later, he's a ringer, you
know.
So something gets him in thedoor.
But if you want to stay in thebusiness, you have to learn all
these different things.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah, it sounds like versatility is the key for a
stunt performer.
There, Obviously, there are allthose different roles.
So how does the coordinator fitinto that as well?
So you said there were twodifferent sorts of contracts.
All these ones sort of fallunder the stunt performer With
the coordinator.
That sounds like a boss leveljob, you might say.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
Yeah well, coordinator say yeah well,
coordinator is a department head, right, so the department a
stunt coordinator sometimes.
I've spoken to manycoordinators.
I've coordinated a few swallerindependent films and stuff.
It's not only my main gig, eveneven on those, you're, you're
dealing with budgets, you'redealing with hiring, you're
dealing with risk assessments,you're dealing with all the
safety stuff regarding stuntstunt days.
You know like so it's a stuntday.
You're, you're the main stuffregarding stunt days.
You know like, so if it's astunt day, you're the main man

(23:43):
regarding safety.
So you've got a lot ofresponsibility that you have to
cover.
And I know a lot of stuntcoordinators that would prefer
not to be coordinators on a celllevel because they get taken
out of the creative fun stuff.
You know what I mean.
They're too busy being adepartment head.
So, casting you know like wedon't have agents really, so

(24:04):
it's all word of mouth or whoyou know.
So they're looking at casting.
So it's a very high pressuredjob.
You know that you have toreally be a good administrator,
you have to be a good leader andyou're going to, let's say, the
script calls for something thatyou're not an expert at, but
you're going to have to knowenough to find the expert, to

(24:26):
consult, to hire, you know, tohire for this.
So coordinating is theoperative word there.
You're coordinating the entirestunt department and it's a lot.
Most coordinators will have anassistant coordinator because
they can do it all, and they'llhave a stunt PA usually or an
administrator that can do allthat stuff for you and it's a
big job, it's a really big jobyeah, and you've said as well

(24:49):
that you've done a few smallersort of stunt coordinating roles
.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
But you've also told me that you've.
You're just about to start youryour first sort of feature
stunt coordinator role in Eugenein the machine that's coming
out this year so people shouldlook out for it.

Speaker 2 (25:03):
I don't know when.
I know it's been picked up fordistribution.
That was my first feature thatI was the key stunt coordinator.
It's not a huge action movie.
It was just in my wheelhouse,perfect for a first, like time,
you know, in the in thecoordinator's chair, as it were.
But a of fights, a couple ofsmall falls like very manageable

(25:24):
stuff.
That's in my wheelhouse.
No pyrotechnics, no, you know,no fancy rigging, none of that.
It was basically all fights andfalls, the bread and butter
stuff Of the stunt mode yeah.
Yeah, yeah, totally, and yeah,starring Scott Glenn and Jim
Gaffigan.
It's a great story.
I don't want to give away anyof that, but you guys should
definitely check it out.
Working with a legend likeScott Glenn was everything you

(25:47):
had hoped it would be.
He's just, he's badass, Even at80 plus years old, you know,
still challenging people to pushup, push up competitions and
stuff.
And you know, he would the bestthat he would tell he would
tell he would, you know, tellstories on set, talk about
legendary movies he was in, youknow.
And then I would go back to thehotel that night and get on my

(26:09):
laptop and like go back andre-watch these movies, because
now I have like a differentcontext, and like, oh, he just
told us all these amazingstories about urban cowboy
working with deborah winger, youknow.
And then, like I'd have to goback and watch that scene, I'm
like, oh yeah, now I see whathe's talking about.
You know, like there's a scenein urban cowboy For those who
haven't seen it, it's when JohnTravolta is is the guy who is

(26:31):
like the mechanical bull rider,His girlfriend is girlfriend,
he's a factory worker, but he,you know, on this he's on his
off time, he's in the bar ridingthe mechanical bull and doing
that whole thing.
He's like kind of a wannabecowboy, right.
And then his girlfriend isDebra Winter and she kind of
gets smitten for the real cowboywho is Scott Glenn, right.

(26:53):
So they go to the rodeo andScott Glenn gets on the bull and
he's about to ride the bull andthe bull throws him in the pen.
He gets thrown between the balland the wall of the pen.
He's crushed in there and hewas telling me that actually he
broke his arm Like he.
That actually happened.
That whole scene, if you watchit.
He gets thrown by the bull,gets up on the bull and then

(27:15):
rides it.
But he broke his arm for real,got up on a pole with a broken
arm and rode, rode the pole forthe scene.
I mean it's just like you knowthe old days of of of stuff.
You know what I mean.
It's like it's.
It's just great, though there'snot too many guys I can have
left, like that old school.
You know, yeah, Man's hero,yeah, zero meaning man.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
I have a couple of questions from some listeners as
well.
Just while we're touching onthat, rich, one of our listeners
.
He says injuries must come withthe territory.
Have there been any that havereally stuck with you just
working on that broken arm thatyou spoke about there and like
when safety is a really bigconcern?
There's lots of people thatsort of coordinate, that sort of
position and do the riskassessments and things like that

(28:01):
.
As a stunt person, if youassess a stunt or something and
all the tests have been done, doyou have a say in whether you
go ahead and perform that if youyourself think it's safe to do,
or is there any sort of backand forth in that space?
And yes, obviously injuries area thing of the business.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
Sure, I mean's.
It's a great question, rich, Imean.
Everybody always asks you knowabout injuries.
Honestly, I've had more.
I've had more, knock on wood,I've had more serious injuries
in my martial arts career thanin my career.
But the biggest problem I wouldsay no problem the biggest
thing to look out for iscomplacency.

(28:40):
So when you're on a set, a justput all the risk assessments
and the planning aside for asecond.
I would say more injuries happenon stuff that we consider easy
day-to-day stuff.
You know, more concussionshappen on simple falls or,
quote-unquote, simple wire gags.
Maybe you're doing a small handpull, you know something like

(29:03):
that.
Like those are the ones where Ithink people take their eye off
the ball and you know oh, we'vedone this a thousand times,
it'll be fine, you know.
But if you look, if you lookfor, if you look through OSHA,
which is the Occupational SafetyHealth Administration in the
United States, they'llinvestigate incidents after

(29:24):
there's an incident at aworkplace.
In our case, the workplace is abill set Across the board.
I've read tons of OSHA reportsAcross the board.
Those sets are being cited fornot having contingency plans for
failure, for not properlyplaying for failure right, so
not having an ambulance on setor not having you know the

(29:47):
proper this or that or whatever.
You know so, and I thinkthere's a lot of what's called
normalization of deviance, andso what that means is you do
something wrong enough andnothing happens.
You start to believe thatyou're not doing it wrong and
then something happens.
You know, but I was doingeverything right.
It's like no, it actuallyweren't, you were just getting

(30:08):
lucky all the time, you know.
So, having said that, safety isa team sport, it's not one
person.
And so to the question like doI have the authority to step up
and say no 100%?
I do.
The problem is is there's somuch pressure to not say no, you

(30:29):
know.
And so I think it's veryimportant for the first AD, who
is the first AD is technicallyin charge of safety on a set,
even above the stunt coordinator.
Usually it's the first AD whowill run the safety meetings and
you know if they might ask thestunt coordinator to speak to
something, but it's usually thefirst AD that runs it.

(30:52):
The stunt coordinator, obviously, regarding the stunt itself, is
the person who did all the riskassessments and stuff like that
.
People should be encouraged tothrow out questions, any
questions, you know, it's likeguaranteed in the safety thing,
somebody has somebody has a ishaving a hesitation, maybe
warranted, maybe not, but moreoften than not people won't

(31:14):
speak up.
There's too much pressure onthe performer to do it.
You know, I at my age I don'tgive a shit'm gonna be like, if
there's something, if there'ssomething that like I don't want
to do, I I just won't do it orI'll just say, hey, is there
another way we can tell thisstory without doing this?
You know, like when you'retalking about assessing risk,

(31:34):
basically let's say you discoveryou, you, you're gonna do a
stunt.
Let's say it's a discover you,you're going to do a stunt.
Let's say it's a stairfall,right, and so you say, oh,
there's hazards involved withthis stairfall.
Or you look at what are thehazards?
Maybe it's about theenvironment, the environmental
specific.
Maybe it's the type of stairs.
Maybe it's there's a bastard,maybe there's no bastard.

(31:54):
Maybe it's the length of thestairfall.
Maybe it's a two-personstairfall.
Maybe you know you're, theground is concrete at the bottom
.
Maybe it's a two-person stairfall.
Maybe you know the ground isconcrete at the bottom.
Maybe it's a stair fall intowater.
I mean, there's all differentthings, right.
So you assess the hazard.
Then you have to decide is thathazard worth it?
Like, can we still tell thestory and replace something and

(32:17):
just completely get rid of thathazard?
Like maybe we don't even needto be dealing with that hazard?
You know, maybe we can cutsomething out and still tell the
same story and get rid of thataltogether, because in the end,
stunts are about telling thestory, right.
It's not about like, can we dothe coolest thing?
It's about telling the storythat the director wants to tell

(32:39):
and maybe we don't have to doall this stuff.
So let's say you can't cut outthe hazard, you can't avoid it.
Then what can we substitute?
Do we have to do a stair falldown 40 stairs?
Maybe we can just do it down 20, you know.
So you start looking at how youcan substitute things to
minimize, to help minimize therisk.
Let's say you can't substituteit, then you would go to like

(33:03):
engineering-type mitigation.
So, okay, I did a stair falldown in a factory on blue bloods
.
Right, it was just metal stairswith metal banisters in a
factory, right.
So what did they do?
They actually covered thestairs with molded rubber to

(33:23):
make it look like corrugatedmetal right, so that would be
and that's an engineering typeof mitigation of risk.
You know, I'm still going tofall down the stairs and and, to
be honest, that rubber was hardor it was like I was like, did
you guys even put anything onhere?
Because it was, mostimportantly like talk about,

(33:43):
well, I'll get to it.
But so let's say there's anengineering way that you can
mitigate a risk, right, let'ssay, after engineering, then
there's what's calledadministrative mitigation, which
is training people.
Right, you train.
You train your workers, youtrain your performers, you train
everybody, right, you train.
You train your workers, youtrain your performers, you train
everybody.
And then the last way of dealingwith a risk, which is the least

(34:05):
successful way of dealing witha risk, is ppe, right, personal
protective stuff like haseverybody knows ppe from covid,
right, but it's like it also islike harnesses and elbow pads
and hip gear and mouth guard,like that's all PPE.
And the only time you use PPEis when you haven't been able to
eliminate a risk, right?

(34:26):
So that's the one stage in thatwhole thing where you can't
eliminate a risk.
So, for example, that stairfall, the wardrobe that I was
wearing did not allow me to wearpads.
You know what I mean.
So the pad and stairs were evenmore important.
You know.
So, like, basically, wheneveryou look at a stunt, you want to
go through these stages.
Do we even need to do this?

(34:47):
We do need to do this.
Can we change it up?
If we change it up, can we addsome other you know stuff to
help soften the blow, and so onand so on and so on.
And you should do that forevery stunt that that's
happening.
And here's the thing, let's,and you should do that for every
stunt that's happening.
And here's the thing.
Let's say you're on set and thedirector says and this happens
to me.
I'll give you an example.
The director says you know what?

(35:07):
I'd like to shoot it this way.
And then you start from scratch.
If you don't go through thatlittle click in your mind, that
little process, again, that'swhere injuries happen.
Most injuries happen whenpeople are rushing, they're not
paying attention or whatever.
I was doing a wire gang wherewe had rehearsed it.
We had rehearsed it as just astraight up pull right.

(35:34):
It was in this movie, saveYourselves.
You guys can check it out.
It's a really great sci-fimovie and so on.
The first one that gets killedby the aliens during an alien
invasion, right?
So I'm running through theforest, upstate new york.
I'm running through the forest,actually right near woodstock
where the the concert, thehistoric concert, was.
I'm running through the forestbeing chased by an alien.

(35:55):
You don't see the alien becausethey're doing it like jaws,
right but right.
But I'm being chased.
I'm in my underwear, like thestory is, like the alien
interrupted way.
I'm getting ready for work inthe morning, so I'm just hauling
ass through the woods andsimultaneously there's the two
protagonists, this couple.
They're sitting in a canoe.

(36:16):
They're a couple having arelationship problem, so they're
trying to get time away.
See, the whole plot of thismovie is they're a couple having
a relationship problem, sothey're trying to get time away.
See, the whole plot of thismovie is they're trying to save
their relationship and theirfriend gives them a cabin in the
woods.
Go tax on time away, get offthe grid, turn off your phones,
get off the internet, turneverything off.
So they totally get off thegrid and at that moment is when

(36:39):
the alien invasion happens.
So they have no idea what'shappening in the world around
them.
And so they're meditating inthis canoe and they're cutting
back and forth to me beingchased by the alien.
So I get to the top of the stonewall and the way we rehearsed
it was.
I get to the top of the stonewall and I'm waiting for, like

(37:00):
for help, save me, save me.
And then the alien is like afrog.
It has a long toe, which is thewire pole right.
So then I was saying save me,save me.
And then I'm gone and they hearme scream and they open their
eyes and they're like.

(37:22):
The directors were like and Iactually agree with them and
they were like you know, ifyou're really right for your
life, you wouldn't stop at thetop of this wall and just you,
just keep running.
You know, they were like let'stry it that way.
But we didn't rehearse it after, we didn't go back and do the
process right.
So they were like okay, we'llrun up to the wall.
So now we did what's acombination of what's called a

(37:45):
dead man.
So for those listening, a deadman.
It's like when you're runningand you run out of wire and you
get pulled like.
A example would be like you'reon a horse, you know, and you're
you're gonna try and go under atree branch, but the branch
hits you in the head.
So they measure it.
So you run out of wire justbefore you hit the branch and
then so you'll get pulled offthe horse by the wire but it

(38:06):
looks like you hit the treebranch right.
So that's a dead man.
But then we added the.
We added a dead man aspect towhat was just going to be a
static bolt which increased thevelocity, to what was just going
to be a static bolt, whichincreased the velocity,
increased everything.
We had 25 feet of pad for mylanding track on the other side

(38:26):
of that wall from the pole.
When we added me, running up tothe pole, I cleared the pads.
There was so much velocity Ijust landed hard on the ground
into almost into a tree, into athorn.
Bush Got my arm all ripped upbecause we didn't rehearse it.
We didn't say like, oh wait,we're changing this, let's just
do a quick rehearsal.
We didn't, we just went rightto it because there's pressure,

(38:49):
the cameras are rolling, it'sindependent film, time is money,
blah, blah, blah, you know.
So you have to go through thatprocess.
That's a long one.
Did Wade answer that question?
But in the end, everybody onset.
There's a hierarchy, right,there's a hierarchy on set who
can say what, when, who.
When it comes to safety, thereshould be no hierarchy.
The lowest person on the totempole if they see something

(39:09):
unsafe, they should say it.
You know what's the worst thatcould happen, like, oh no, we
got it.

Speaker 1 (39:15):
Thanks for letting us know, though you know shouldn't
shouldn't stay quiet onanything about safety yeah, I
think it goes back to that oldadage that safety is everyone's
business, especially when itcomes to to film sets like that.
Uh, it sounds like through yourcareer you've, you've, you've
obviously had some incidenceslike that.
But you said also that throughyour martial arts you've, you've
suffered some injuries, and I'msure some stunt performers have

(39:36):
also had some pretty biginjuries as well.
I have christian, who's myformer gridiron coach.
He's got some injuries of hisown.
He says how does stuntperformers manage pain, as it
must be part of the job, and howdo you personally deal with the
wear and tear of stunt work inthe industry?

Speaker 2 (39:53):
Yeah, it's two different questions.
But the wear and tear.
You definitely have to stay fit.
You know you have to.
I mean I'm not going to sayanything that would be
surprising.
You know you have to manageyour diet.
You have to get physicaltherapy if you need it.
You have to take care of yourbody.
You know you're a professionalathlete, essentially right, so

(40:14):
you have to just maintain yourbody.
Pan is just something you dealwith.
You get used to dealing with it.
You know, for some reason thebody is really good at blocking
that all out.
When you're on set and they sayaction, you, you don't say
anything, you don't feelanything, you just do it, you

(40:34):
just pop into it.
You know it's all.
The other times, like when Iwake up in the morning, it takes
me 10 minutes for my knees tolike yeah, yeah, totally.
But like, for example, likethat stair fall I told you about
, I have in my left leg from mymartial arts career, not from my
stunts career I have like 11screws and a plate in my left
leg.
I broke my leg in two placesabout 15 years ago.

(40:57):
At some point during that stairfall my ankle dinged the
banister of the stairs.
I have no idea.
When I watched the video amillion times in the slow ocean
I can't quite tell.
It wasn't like a transverse hit, it was probably just a
ricochet like yeah, like aglancing blow glancing, yeah,

(41:19):
and the whole day after the.
You know I did that.
I did it once.
They were happy.
You know I didn't have to do itagain.
I was hanging out on sethelping a stock coordinator move
all the pads, put everythingaway, just just chilling glad.
Good day went to, went to mytrailer tanzantan Day.
After I wrapped, get out ofwardrobe, blah, blah, blah.
I drive home, take a shower.

(41:39):
Everything feels fine,everything's cool.
I sit down on my couch to playPlayStation.
I put my phone up and I look atmy ankle and it's swollen like
this big.
I'm like, how did I not, howdid I not?
I had the biggest egg on there,like where I, where I hit and
it was like so painful.
All of a sudden I'm like, oh myGod, that hurts, you know.

(42:00):
Meanwhile, the last six hours Ididn't feel a thing, you know.
So there is definitely thispsychological thing about pain,
you know.
But you, just, you just end upsucking it up.
You know, if you do feel it,you, you stock it up, get the
job done and hopefullytransition to more behind the
camera jobs later as you get abit more experience.

Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah, it sounds like there's like a threshold and
also probably that adrenaline aswell to perform the task and so
like focus orientated in yourjob, that it just sort of goes
by the by the wayside at theyou're super focused, you know,
like before the director, beforethey call action, you're for me
anyway.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
I've got television on everything I've got to do,
especially if it's an actinglike, if I have to say dialogue,
that scares me more than anystunt.
You know, I'm not a trainedactor, so I get you know we'll,
we'll all get these roles whereyou have to deliver a few lines
if you're a bad guy or like,whatever I'm like.
Oh my God, I did.
I did a job on that show,hunters on Amazon, and I get

(43:02):
killed by Sister Harriet and sheputs a gun and blows my head
off, right.
But I had a couple of lies.
I had to say to her I didn'tcare about the backfall, I
didn't care that I was fallingwithout a pad or anything like
that and I had no pads on.
Like, that doesn't bother me atall.
When they said action and I hearher going through the party and

(43:23):
she's asking people, you know,you know this guy, do you know
this guy?
And I knew she was going toapproach me and I had my lines
to say.
I was so nervous.
Plus, I had to do it in aGerman accent, you know, because
I was playing a german.
That was like hiding in thestates for like, only here is
that?
Yeah, so I was.
I get real nervous about theacting stuff.
I don't get so nervous aboutstuff.

(43:44):
It comes down to your focus.

Speaker 1 (43:46):
Yeah, yeah, and it comes to that comfortability
sort of thing.
You know you've probably done amillion falls in your in your
time and that's just sort ofsecond nature to you.
But then, yeah, with the, withthe talking on the, on camera
stuff, it's just a wholedifferent ballgame.
And then, combining the two,it's like your brain's working
in two different spaces at once.
Yeah, totally yeah, let's goback to your body of work,
because you've started to dosome work on a film that's

(44:08):
coming out called CaughtStealing starring Austin Butler.
I believe it's a sort of a darkcomedy and it says you've got a
driving credit on this one.
So so what?
What did that involve?
What was your set experiencelike working on something that
is coming out now?

Speaker 2 (44:23):
Yeah, that was that was.
That was a fun couple of days.
I got to work on that job.
Outscaling is based on a noveland it's a Darren Darren
Aronofsky movie, which, by theway, is a kind of a full circle
moment for me because, rememberI told you before, there was a
stunt coordinator who suggestedI go into stunts because I had
these skills.
The reason the reason that Imet him was because I had

(44:44):
produced a proof of concept backin 2013 or 2014.
And it was a friend of minewho's a writer was pitching a TV
show and I produced the proofof concept and then I also
choreographed the fight scene init.
It was like an MMA fight,probably in my wheelhouse, right

(45:06):
, but anyway, because we had AlIaclenta from UFC was in the
proof of concept and I've knownAl since he's like 16 or 17.
And so he was in the proof ofconcept and I've known Al since
he's like 16 or 17.
And so he was in our film.
And then Darren Aronofsky wasconsidering at that time doing a
TV show, so we got called in topitch the show to his people,
right, and I met the stockcoordinator there, and then the

(45:27):
rest is history.
He's the one that suggested Ithink about stunts as a career.
Aronofsky never picked up a TVshow.
He never did a TV show.
But all these years later I getto work on an Aronofsky movie
for the first time, so that waspretty cool To the job on set.
I was basically brought in to dowhat they call indie driving
and so light what I wouldconsider light, very light stunt

(45:50):
work.
I was in the hot seat for alittle bit, but it was a couple
of days of playing a cab driverdriving around downtown
Manhattan in the suns.
And then there's one scenewhere Bad Bunny runs across the
street not paying attention andI have to almost hit him.
He was almost hit by a car.
So when you see the movie,that'll be me.
But it was fun.

(46:11):
It was like and the only actualmember of the cast that I met
because I spent the whole twodays sitting in a car, you know,
just waiting for my, for myaction and over and over again
and and doing that kind of stuff.
But I didn't meet in makeup.
I meet this guy and he's like hewas just so excited to be there

(46:31):
.
He's like, oh my God, I can'tbelieve I'm in this movie and
this is amazing.
And he was just so I thought.
I thought he must be like a newrookie guy, you know, like
fresh face.
I didn't recognize him Blingingclean shade of face, like kind
of shorter back, like stocky guy.
And then I then I found thatafterwards as action Brosnan
rosman, like the rapper right.

(46:52):
So I was like oh my god,there's actual rosman.
I had no idea, dude, but likeso he's in the movie.
So that was a cool littlemoment.
But honestly it was just a funtwo days of driving a car,
driving a car on carol, you know, and then almost saying goodbye
yeah, put that on the resumeyeah, yeah, yeah um, you've done
a lot of different sort of workin in the tv and the action

(47:13):
sort of movie space.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
What are the biggest differences in terms of being on
set for those types of things,or does the work really not
change between those two sortsof spaces?

Speaker 2 (47:22):
Well, I will say, probably 85% of what I do is TV,
and you know so I haven't beenon too many.
I've been on, like you know,five or six feature films.
I would say, though, thebiggest difference with features
, generally speaking, is you dohave more time.
You have more time when you'redoing TV shows, especially if

(47:43):
they're cross-boarding, which,for those listening, meaning
you're filming multiple episodesat a time out of order.
We got to get this episode done.
Maybe you've got seven or eightshoot days per episode, so
there's not a lot of rehearsaltime.
There's not.
It's like, so, I would say, fora performer, if you're working

(48:04):
on tv and you you have to know100 what you say, if you have to
be able to do what you're, sayyou're you can do to get the job
, because there's no, most ofthe time you're showing up on
set and performing with norehearsal time.
If you're lucky, they mighthave an early call or pre-call

(48:24):
where you could rehearse alittle bit.
You know what I mean, but eveneven yeah, I mean, I think
there's only really been one ortwo shows that I've been on
where they've had a lot ofrehearsal for fights you know,
like I I doubled leo raz on onthe show, crowded room for apple
and there's a couple of bigfight stands in there, where

(48:45):
that was it.
You just show up on set and theyshow you the previs maybe or
where they the coordinator, hadworked out what they want in the
fight, and you just watch itand learn it right there and do
it.
You know, like you don't have alot of time to prep, so you
have to, I think, be like the.
Obviously the stuff is lesscomplicated because you don't

(49:06):
have like weeks to rehearse andtrain and do whatever you do on
a movie.
So you might get, let's say, a12 or 15 beat fight for a TV
show, but you have to do itright now, like there's no time.
There's no time to play it Likeyou have to do it right now and
make a look at.
You know you don't have time towork out the kinks really.
So I would say it's probablythe biggest.
The biggest thing is time, yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
Do you think that sort of increases the pressure
as well?
Obviously you said that youhave to get it right, but the
pressure and then obviously wewere talking before about the
safety element and going throughthe checklists of those sort of
safety concerns Working on theTV is there more pressure to
actually get it right first time?

Speaker 2 (49:45):
Oh for sure they you know we joke.
We say you want to be a one anddone person, you want to get it
done once, like on that stairfall.
They loved it the first time.
They don't have to waste timedoing it again.
I was on an episode of DeadCity Walking Dead recently where
I had to do a little ball LikeI get pulled killed by a zombie

(50:07):
right, and we had rehearsed itone way.
I mean we didn't have advancedrehearsal, we were just on set.
We rehearsed it one way acouple times the director wanted
to try it a different way andit didn't really work a
different way.
But he was getting reallyfrustrated because, you know, I
mean we only did it like fourtimes and it was just not a lot.
But every time it's like let'sget this done, let's get this

(50:29):
done.
You know it's like there's alot of that kind of pressure.
There's a lot of that kind ofpressure.
He wasn't mean about it, butyou could just tell yeah, nature
of the business kind of.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
thing.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
There's definitely, especially, I would say, if you
have kids on set, like we had,under 18-year-old on set.
So now you have even lesslimited time because there's
child labor laws.
They can only work for X amountof hours, so now you're adding
additional time pressure to getstuff done.
So definitely, tv, tv, it's thetime pressure.

(51:02):
Yeah, some people like that.
I don't mind, I don't mind thepressure.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
I find she'll bring the pressure you've done some
work as a stunt double across afew tv shows.
You've doubled henry winklerand eddie marsden as well.
I've I've heard that therelationship between the stunt
double and the actor can be likequite important.
Is that sort of true to say, oror is it more just like a both
of you sort of get your jobsdone in isolation?

(51:27):
What's?
What's the relationship therelike between actor and double?

Speaker 2 (51:31):
it could be.
It can be both of those.
So, for example, like EddieMarson, I doubled for the run of
a show for a whole season,right.
So we got to work together alot and so that relationship was
important because I was goingto be there all the time, you
know, and so you want to be,even though, let's say, I

(51:51):
doubled him.
I worked with him for fourdifferent fights.
Only one of those fights I hadto be on camera because he was
really good enough to to do ithimself, but we had to teach him
it.
Part of my job is to help teachhim with the stunt coordinator,
teaching the choreography torehearse it.
And, like Ray Donovan, we werelucky.
We got two rehearsal days forevery fight, right.

(52:12):
So for so we had two days andthen I was set the third day.
So we got some good rehearsaltime.
And you want to have that goodrelationship because in between
the takes I was set he wouldcome up to me how did that look?
Did that sell?
He feels comfortable around him.
You know what I mean.
But the Henry Winkler job, forexample, it was like one day I

(52:32):
was in and out, that's it.
It was just in and out for afight stand, you know you don't
really have much of arelationship.
I've doubled a lot of people.
I doubled Beck Bennett onSaturday Night Live.
You know it's like come in forone day, do the stuff for him,
go home, you know.
So then you have the flip side.
I doubled Zach Grenier on RayDonovan and he also played.

(52:53):
He played the mayor on RayDonovan.
So I doubled him too.
And then he got Dev in.
You know the Alex Garlis show,and he's the one that helped
bring me over because we hadsuch a good relationship.
So then I ended up training himfor this fight scene at my
studio before we went out toCalifornia.
So in that case, again, it'sabout having a good relationship

(53:15):
, you know.
But in the end my job is tosupport their ability to do what
they have to do right.
It's not really about me at all.
So I'm very happy if they cando it all themselves, like
that's, it's, that's the best.
Like for the, for the show,that's the best.
If it's their pace, it's themdoing it.
But sometimes it's not.

(53:36):
You know, like in Devs there's ascene where he has to climb out
on the ledge of a building tostop Sonia Mizuno from
committing suicide.
So they that we shot that overfour days, two days of it.
This is like on a six, aboutsix stories up.
They had a giant scaffold builtup to level the the ledge and

(54:00):
sonny was, you know, and zachdid it, did it themselves
because if they fell they werein full two feet to a to a
padded scaffold, right.
But those two days, myself andlinda jewel, who was sonya's
double, had to learn the lines.
We had to memorize how theymoved, we had to mimic them and

(54:21):
then day three and day four ofthat shoot, we take the scaffold
away and we redo the wholeentire scene with us saying the
lines and everything.
You know what I mean.
It's like doing the scene andtrying to be them.
And this was for the droneshots or for the crane shots and
shots from the ground, lookingup all the shots that were not

(54:42):
close-ups, you know so.
But again, that's about therelationship, because I'm
spending two days with him upthere in the building like
talking with him, helping him,like with with the physical
actions of climbing over thisrailing and climbing over there
and how you're going to do it,and then so you have to find
this thing, that this, thislittle ground that he feels is

(55:03):
comfortable for him, but I alsothen have to be comfortable, so
it's like it's a lot of practice, yeah, but you can't do it if
you're not getting along.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
No absolutely yeah, especially in a show like Ray
Donovan.
I know that Eddie Marsden playsa character that is a boxer, so
nailing his movements isprobably really important if you
were going to actually doublehim on set.
Yep, yep.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
There's a moment, there's a scene in that season.
One of the fight scenes is abar fight, right?
So Eddie was also training witha boxer, with a boxing coach,
on very specific Irish styleboxing right for the character,
and so.
But Eddie has this thing wherehe would keep his pinky out.

Speaker 1 (55:47):
He would be like it was weird he'd be like close
your.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
If you guys go watch it, you'll see his little pinky
is always kind of sticking out alittle bit.
And so we had to do this bigbar fight, like four on three
bar fight.
And so we come in a pre-callfor like two hours literally we,
the stunt coordinator, dr ham,choreographs the whole fight
with us that morning.
There's no rehearsal, like whatwe're talking about for this

(56:11):
one.
And then when we shoot thewides, right, we shoot the wides
, we do the whole fight with allthe stunt doubles, you know,
because we're talking about forthis one.
And then when we shoot thewides, right, we shoot the wides
, we do the whole fight with allthe stunt doubles.
You know, because we're allcrashing into tables and all
this stuff.
And then when I come out, theDP was like holy shit, I thought
you were Eddie, like becausethey were at the matters and
they were like you've had thematters, I was so good.

(56:32):
We thought you were Eddie, Iwas about the manners I was so
good.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
We thought we were eddie.
I was like no, not eddie, sothat's the compliment you want,
right?
Yeah, totally, absolutely.
That's so good.
You've obviously done a lot ofwork in front of the camera and
you're starting to do a littlebit more behind.
Do you think you?
Do you think you would like topursue more of that coordination
sort of role, or are you happycontinuing to get the the sort
of stunt roles and advising andhelping the, the actors, perform

(56:55):
these stunts to the best oftheir ability?
What would your preferred sortof future look like?
I guess you could say in thestunt business, good question.

Speaker 2 (57:02):
I mean I like all of it.
I really do like all of it, youknow.
So I like, I honestly think I'ma good producer, like you know.
I have that sort of organizedbrand, so I think that is sort
of organized brand, so I thinkthat is sort of a superpower on
the short films and other thingsthat I've served as a producer
on.
It's like I'm pretty good withthat.
I enjoy that organizationalside of things, you know, and

(57:24):
being a creative producer too,where I'm also advising on some
of the creative aspects of theproduction.
But I don't I enjoy coordinating.
You know I don't ever seemyself, I don't aspire to be
like a coordinator of you know,of being giant feature.
Like I've talked to too many ofthose guys where, like again,
like they feel like they're kindof taken out of the fun stuff.

(57:46):
You know, I like I likecoordinating independent fellows
because you're still sort ofpart of that whole process.
You know know of really divingin and how do we tell the story?
You know, like, like eugene themarine, the one that I that I
worked on was scott glenn, uh,the director, hank benford.

(58:06):
That was his second feature andhe's also a lifelong wrestler
and a jujitsu gal, right.
So it was so much fun because,to come up with the fight scenes
, it was Hank and myself andanother friend of Hank's.
We just got together at my gymall together.
I mean, how often do you shootpre-vis with the director doing
the fight choreography?

(58:27):
Yeah, it's like so much fun,you know, and so I like that
part of it.
So whatever engages my creativebrain is enjoyable, you know, I
mean just recently I can'tmention who the actor was, but
just recently we were I rentedout my space to a production to

(58:47):
come in and just use to train.
You know they sent the trainerwith this actor because they had
to train a very specific skill,definitely something I would
not have been able to teach them, but they used my space because
they were in New York and justeven that was so much fun being
able to be there and just totalk with them and watch the
process, watch how the.

(59:10):
Jojo Eusebio was the person Iwas training up, so you guys can
look it up.
Jonathan Eusebio was the personthat was trained up, so you
guys can look it up.
Jonathan Eusebio is a legendarystock coordinator, new director
too.
But I basically like thecollaboration, I think, if it
comes down to it, I really enjoycollaboration.
I really enjoy engaging thecreative side of my brand and
whenever all is said, I honestlydon't care, as long as I get to

(59:32):
do it as long as it's workingand it's in what you love.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
Hey, yeah, yeah.
We'll take a few minutes now tohave a chat about the
recognition of the stuntindustry across Hollywood,
because I know that some peoplehave mentioned it as being like
the ugly stepsister of Hollywood, and you know like, for example
, the Oscars just recently havesaid that they're going to be
awarding a stunt category award,have said that they're going to
be awarding a stunt categoryaward.
What are your thoughts on howthe perception of stunts has

(59:58):
changed throughout the years?

Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
culminating in that, obviously, sort of Oscar
recognition that they're goingfor now.
I mean, I would say I haven'tbeen in long enough to see the
full arc of change of perception.
Yep, but if I were to go backto my childhood, nobody, you
know, I didn't go to my highschool guidance counselor and
they didn't tell me like, hey,there's this job, that there's
this called a stuntman.
Yeah, there's no clear pathway,is there?
Yeah, yeah, it's like you justdon't know about it.

(01:00:25):
So I think the fact that it's aknown thing now is very
different, obviously, like Imean, take a, you know, there
are stud performers in the earlydays that nobody knew existed
because the productions were soinvested in keeping it secret
that the actors were not doingit all themselves?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like you know,douglas Fairbanks had a stunt

(01:00:48):
double.
Nobody talks about that.
They I mean not that he wasn'tamazing, but he had a stunt
double you know, Dick Talvichwas his name, by the way.
You guys got to look it up,richard Talvich.
He was one of the early silentera, early days of talkies stunt
guys.
They would bring him in duringlunch breaks and they would film
scenes, you know, and then hewas gone by the time they came

(01:01:09):
back to shoot.
So it's very different.
It's so far different, right.
So it's very different thanit's so far different right.
That now the stunts and thebehind the scenes, how they did
it, is how they market the money.
So, like it's, it's thecomplete opposite of being
secret.
It's the complete opposite ofthe man behind the curtain, you
know.
So, and it's a very interestingtime in in the stunt business

(01:01:33):
because there's all thisparanoia that we're going to be
replaced by AI and all this kindof stuff and at the same time,
more and more people areinterested in practical stunts
than ever before.
So it's this weird sort ofjuxtaposition of what's going on
in the culture right now.
I'm personally not too worriedabout AI, like, I think there'll

(01:01:54):
always be a place, there willalways be directors that want to
do things practical.
There will always be anaudience for people who want
things practical.
So I'm not too stressed aboutit.
I feel like, not that it's nota worrisome thing, but I feel
like it's overstated.
I feel like the paranoia isoverstated.

Speaker 1 (01:02:09):
Yeah, I think that's fair to say as well.
I think human, human create,like getting a few people into a
room creatively is somethingthat ai really just can't
replicate, especially when itcomes to, like your fight
choreography, working in themoment, just doing those kind of
physical things.
It's very difficult for an aito sort of generate that kind of
thing.
But yeah, I think you're right,because the like, the stunts
and the marketing behind thestunt sometimes sells the movie,

(01:02:31):
like mission impossible, builta franchise on it, for example.
But yeah, I think it's, it'sgood to hear that Dunstard
getting their day in the sun andthey're, they're sort of being
more respected or not morerespected, but they're, they're
being shown to people more oftenbecause people do definitely
put their, their bodies on theline for for the art and I mean.

(01:02:51):
I think, spectacle too.

Speaker 2 (01:02:52):
I think the recognition you asked about the
Oscars.
I think the recognition youasked about the Oscars.
I think the recognition isgreat.
It's not something that Ipersonally would have went to
the mat for.
Like I don't.
I think it's great that we haveit.
I think it's deserved.
But if I was going to choosesomething to fight for, there's
other things I would fight for,like mandatory ambulances on set

(01:03:13):
.
Like I would fight for thatbefore I fight for an Oscar.
100%.
So I think there are moreimportant things to fight for
regarding set safety and theculture of filmmaking than an
Oscar.

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
And it's an evolving space, isn't it?
It's constantly moving towardthat direction, because I think
everybody is concerned withbeing more safe for the actors
and performers that are goingabout it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Yeah, all right, I mean the flip, the flip side is
the oscars might help thatthough.
Like yeah, you know, it's all,it's all tied together like the
publicity of that might mightmake it more talked about in the
public space.
But you know, like I mean howwe hear about deaths and serious
injuries all the time and itstill hasn't sparked a movement

(01:03:57):
in the industry.
It's still, you know, stillevery time somebody dies or is
maimed or is severely hurt orwhatever there's about, you know
, three or four days of peopletalking about it in the tabloids
or in the trades and thenthey're just up to the same old
cowboy mentality, you know.
So something has to call onoutside the industry, in my

(01:04:20):
opinion.
I think change like the industryabsolutely can change.
We've changed for hashtag MeToo.
Right, they created a whole newparadigm of how to work in, you
know, with regard to sexuallyexplicit things, sexually
suggestive things, like how toprotect people in that space.
They completely changed theindustry.
Same thing with COVID.

(01:04:41):
Look how fast the industryresponded to COVID.
But the deaths on set and theserious injuries on set have yet
to cause that kind of movementin the industry and that's kind
of sorry.
So I think something is goingto have to happen from outside
the industry.
There's going to have to bepressure from outside the
industry and that's and that'skind of so, I think, something
that's going to have to happenfrom outside the industry.
There's going to have to bepressure from outside the
industry, like was with COVIDand the hashtag and stuff, to

(01:05:03):
make the industry change.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
Yeah Well, for the safety of everybody, I hope it
kind of moves in that sort ofsort of space as well.
Yeah Well, yeah, thanks so muchfor coming on the show.
I really do appreciate yourtime and really appreciate your
insight.
It was such a great chat.
Before we sign off, we alwayssort of finish with a most
valuable takeaway from yourcareer or a lesson you've

(01:05:25):
learned from a mentor orsomebody that you've worked with
, or just from your experienceon set, so leaving our listeners
with a valuable sort oftakeaway from your career I I
would say I mean, there's been,there's a lot of it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
I I think the one thing that I find myself
suggesting to people a lot islike, for example, we'll talk
about my career and people willbe like, oh man, that's so cool.
I've always wanted to do that.
You know, I always thought thatmaybe I could do this.
But like, if you, if anybodyout there and it doesn't have to
be stunts, I mean whatever itis there's if you have a voice

(01:06:03):
in your head saying try this,whatever it is something that
you're passionate about, and youhave the other voice in your
head saying you know theimposter syndrome, or whatever,
the other boy saying you'llnever make it, don't even bother
, just like, tell that othervoice to shut the fuck up, walk
through that door and try what'sthe worst that can happen it

(01:06:24):
doesn't work the best I can haveit works.
You know I mean so, like we.
Every day we have doors thatopen to us.
Sometimes we see them,sometimes we don't see them, but
they, they're always opening.
There's always opportunitiesappearing.
And just do it, man.
Just take the opportunity thatcomes.
Have faith that it'll meansomething.

(01:06:45):
Don't let the negative voicetell you not to do something
that you want to do.
That would be my one piece ofadvice.
I like that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
And I feel like you've actually lived that too.
Obviously, through your, you'vebeen put in situations where,
with the John Wick sort of moviethat you were talking about
before, where you hadn'texperienced or done anything
like that before, but you jumpedin and you did the best that
you could in the time and it'sobviously led to a lot more
opportunities that happen.
So I think that's really validand, yeah, you've a living

(01:07:14):
example of it too.
So, again, thank you so muchfor your time.
I really do appreciate it.
Listeners, make sure you go andcheck out the Film Fights with
Friends podcast.
They can find that everywhere.
Is that right, steve?

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
Yeah, pretty much everywhere on YouTube and if you
want the video, it's on YouTubeand we drop a lot of behind the
scenes footage and B-roll, soit's worth watching the video if
you're into video podcasting,but we're also pretty much
everywhere Apple, spotify,amazon.
You know we syndicateeverywhere.
It's an audio podcast too.
Yeah, yeah, very good.

Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
So, yeah, go and check that out, guys.
We really do appreciate it andthank you again, steve.
It's been an amazing chat andthank you for your time.
Yeah, thank you, and thanks forgetting up so early to do this.
Really, really generous to bearound.
I'm not a morning person.

(01:08:03):
I appreciate it.
No, I definitely appreciateyour time, so it wasn't a
trouble at all.
All right, thank you, see youlater, take care.