January 13, 2021 • 35 mins
In this episode, Savannah and Julie unpack what it means to be forced feminized, as it applies to male-to-female crossdressers and trans-women. Julie regales Savannah with her experiences with interpersonal interactions, and Savannah responds with her own perspective and experiences. Can a man really be forced into feminization? Or, is that just fictional fantasy erotica stories? And, what does it actually mean to be "forced"? The psychology is fascinating, to be sure.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
understanding the feminine cross-dressing experience.
I'm span of hog, crossdresser and author of the living with
cross-dressing book series, and I'm Julie Rubenstein proud Ally
and co-founder of fox and hanger.com a feminine styling
(00:27):
and life coaching service for crossdressers.
And transgender women. Hey, Savannah.
Hey, Julie, how are you today? I'm doing fabulous.
How are you? Great to connect with you again.
As always on Sunday. Guess what day it is today?
What's today today is the fox and the Phoenix podcast, but it
(00:48):
is also the day where we get to discuss a topic that both you
and I have knowledge and information about but we like to
unpack it and develop them. A better understanding and
that's the whole topic of forcedfeminization.
Hey, hey, whoa, I mean, so you're talking about like if I
(01:09):
was standing on the street corner and an unmarked van came
up and slit open and for feminists would like drag me
inside and take me back to the warehouse to force me into
women's clothing. I mean, yes, and no.
Oh, okay. So no that is not the teaser.
That is not what we are talking about.
(01:32):
Alright, we are talking about a concept that has kind of its
come up for me a lot through theclients.
I've worked with and just the name force feminization is
something that instantly I get like a gut reaction of like I'm
not going to force them to do anything.
I consent culture but actually alarge part of it.
(01:55):
The main part of it is consent it is it is absolutely cousin,
but it could I back up to the stand on a street corner and
having the people like like you grabbed me off the street and
take me forcibly to some unknownlocation force me to wear
women's clothing and then forcedme onto hormones and force me
into breast augmentation and do all these things against my will
(02:16):
that is a huge huge like Sure, in terms of erotica if fiction I
can't tell you know what this istalking to his talking about
like if you go to fiction Mania or TG stories or different
places like that. I mean they have there's a lot
of like fan writers who write specifically to this very very
(02:40):
non consent culture of forcing somebody to become a woman and
it's uh, it's um, very erotic and very it's like a turn-on
like, you know these these You know crossdressers and whoever
else can like read these storiesand feel like oh my God, I'm
giving up everything. I'm part of this story and how
much control yeah. Wow.
(03:01):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean really is something
to be like being afraid to take a next step into a feminine
world and defining a feminine Spirit by its those stories like
a look at if you just took it all out of my hands and it just
happened to me. I would be so happy once the
results were there, but that's that's Fiction that's fiction.
(03:22):
Right? That's I want to like make that
clarification because what you and I need to talk about is not
about erotica or fiction in thisidea of like all against my will
and I was forced or hypnotized or whatever into you know, a
female role of female role but into the real and practical idea
(03:48):
of what forced ation is which there is a little bit of charge
and eroticism to it sure to it being kind of attractive.
Yeah, right. Yes not always but the idea that
I'm not a man. I was just say as men.
We I'm not a man spoiler not a man, but just the idea of let's
(04:15):
say, all right, so I'm going to put it in terms of being a woman
so I know I've heard That for women the idea of being
dominated is very attractive. So do you think that the idea is
such a turn-on because as a malespecies there's this pressure to
(04:35):
make all the decisions to be on this white horse for your
family, you know for your spousefor your colleagues and just the
idea of having someone forced address on you.
If that's if that's your idea ofwhat a woman looks like to force
feminization on to do think that's very erotic because you
(04:59):
don't have to make all the decisions.
Someone else is the more powerful one and you're kind of
the submissive weak individual. Yeah.
Yeah. There's so much psychology to
what you just said. So let's unpack that the female
of the species and again, I'm not this is grain of salt.
So please don't take it as you know verbatim.
(05:20):
But the human take notes and a Sharpie.
No, no, please put that down. But the idea that the female of
the species is the weaker of thespecies is the dominated or the
submissive one to be a man and then quote unquote be forced to
be in this docile in dominated role in and of itself is
(05:44):
symbolic. There's a lot of some symbology
to I'm going to force you into aFrench maid.
Outfit because in the male brain, there's so many conceits
already attributed to a French maid like do they serve me there
in this skimpy little outfit, you know, it's all very
(06:05):
feminine. It's all very, you know, there's
an Allure to it and there's a kink to it that if I were to be
put into the outfit I would kindof feel humiliated as a man, but
then like kind of like being drawn or forced into this role
of Servitude in this very feminine way that fulfills that
(06:26):
part of the brain that is telling the mail.
It's like you are now in his role you are now this female
creature by the fact that you'vedone this clothing and are now
in this role that only women have, you know in our brains and
I keep on thinking about this idea of like men manly men
(06:46):
getting in touch with their femininity that and itself is I
understand how some would look at that as humiliating or
shameful or something that they would only do if they decided
that they wanted to be humiliated and shamed and maybe
even forced there's so much to this topic and I have had
(07:10):
several clients that one asking their intention.
They say things to me like like find me clothes online where I
feel humiliated. Well, what kind of clothing
would that be? Well, that's what that's exactly
what I asked and then together we kind of got into the many
(07:31):
different ways that that could look for them.
And one of the ways that it could look for them.
Is this whole you know, sissy culture.
Yeah you an impact that a littlewith me.
I mean, yeah, I don't know that much about the sissy culture
other than it kind of goes back to the same psychology of
Relinquishing control, you know,you are you're being told what
(07:55):
to do your dress in a very satiny Petticoat e you all the
all these kind of fineries that is that we have attributed to
this type of person. You know, your when are we at
our most vulnerable most vulnerable when we were babies
when we were little girls. I mean I'm speaking to my
(08:16):
gender, but it has been reflected in this kind of sissy
culture. The idea that if I was to Google
or if I was to search on Etsy sissy dresses or sissy culture
look that up. There's a lot of freely.
There's a lot of Frills. There's a lot of pink like
there's almost like a very Sheenpink like it's almost like how
(08:41):
you think of dressing a sexy baby.
That was like kind of 80s like before babies were like it was
on Trend to literally dress babies as Lized beings literally
maybe you ever seen a baby in like thigh-highs because I have
no I have not. Oh, yeah.
It's a thing now and it's disgusting but we live in a in a
(09:06):
very over sexualized culture. So there's that piece.
Is that babies today little literal when babies are being
dressed like very kinky very well.
That's weird. It's wrong and a lot of
different ways. Look it up.
I know I will do we look I guessI'm writing that down right now
with my Sharpie because that is something I want to learn more
(09:27):
about. You know, I um, it's something
that I've noticed my daughter isturning 9, so I'm not exactly in
it. But I have taken note of it over
the past couple of years that babies are, you know, get these
socks that come up to their thighs.
Yeah lace and Frills, but back to the sissy baby little girl
(09:49):
culture. There's there.
It's a lot of pink. It's a lot of satin.
There's like this particular color pink.
There's a purple. There's almost like that baby
yellow. It's almost like you have a
color palette of like five or six different choices.
Yeah, right. You got the Frills.
You've got these Bloomers that almost look like diapers and I
(10:11):
haven't even gotten to the like Lolita.
I'm just talking about the most vulnerable.
Let's be a baby little girl, right?
Well, I mean he was goes up to like Goes from like the baby but
you still dress in it. Like said that Little Bo Peep
kind of motif where your even asyour quote-unquote growing
through these stages where you're still dressed in a very
(10:32):
I'm going to my first communion or I'm gonna go in as very kind
of like a Grimm fairy tale type of like dress with like the
petticoats all underneath it andit's right very sexualized in
today's world. But yet in our brains we have so
Associated that idea or that look or that concept.
Went to being very feminized that while as a man.
(10:54):
I would be humiliated to be dressed that way.
But if you go ahead and you wantthat service of being dressed
that way which then goes back tothe fact that force feminization
really is not forced because you're paying for the service,
you know, it's there's a humiliation of like, oh my God.
(11:16):
I'm now this person that says person did to me and it's a very
very like, Hurt on, right and just out of the fact that
someone me peeking out someone'sclothes and saying you are going
to wear. This is very erotic for people
me being this this mistress kindof Dom Dom personality that says
(11:39):
you will wear this and I try to approach every client with with
loving-kindness, right? And so within that there's that
middle ground of Wanting to meetthis person's needs, right?
So for me, I think this Middle Ground has come from just
describing the hunt process and kind of what I found before.
(12:01):
They see the lookbook. I think that's the happy medium
that we have come come to and I say, oh you're going to feel so
humiliated like this is awesome.Like you're not forcing anything
but you're saying you're gonna feel this way when you see what
I'm going to show you again. If you do this, you know, you're
gonna feel and that That meets their needs.
Yeah and throughout the lookbookthere the style notes that every
(12:27):
article of clothing has the linkattached to it as well as a
style note, but I will make it Iwill tap into that vulnerability
and that charge that they crave and tune into that with my
description. Right?
Like for example are Bloomers, you know, you will feel
embarrassed and and then tune into the texture of the item,
(12:49):
which is So another huge Kink a huge piece of it.
Is that sensory piece? Yes.
So the silkiness verse this structured button down what they
wear during their mail mode suddenly, they're humiliated.
So let's go there, you know you the silky satin.
So what you've done basically isbridged the gap between the
(13:11):
Practical quote-unquote force feminization and the literary
erotica that we talked about at the top of the show.
Where you are, they're getting they're getting like in this
moment. They're getting into this story
that you're telling them withoutyou forcing them to practically
do anything for your psyche. Oh my god, when you wear these
(13:31):
you're gonna be so dot dot and that's turned that's that is
erotic storytelling can do many things and if you are, right, I
mean any sort of literary work can have an impact and there
really is no difference to it being called erotica because Is
deemed it as such and oh that's XXX rated versus 50 Shades of
(13:54):
Grey which every housewife in America has red because it was
erotic and forbidden. But yet now it's three movies.
That's perfect. And it's in his guys and is
perfect for what you're doing. I think what we wanted to talk
about. What we want to talk about is
the idea that the culture of force feminization like we said
is not forced know again, maybe he's picking me up on a street
(14:17):
corner and nobody's like dragging me.
Chloroform in me too. I wake up one day with like, you
know, ee boobs in a vagina that doesn't happen a lot of
chloroform. It made me chuckle.
Oh my God. I'm so groggy.
What was this big pressure on mychest?
Yeah, and it's not as your new boobs that somebody your ex-wife
(14:39):
like, you know pay somebody a million dollars to do to you,
you know, that's not the case that case is in reality case the
case in reality is that for Feminization as we said is
typically a service is to be something that you go into
knowingly and willingly but whatit does do is it does take some
(15:01):
responsibility out of your handsbecause wind your put into the
hands of her professional that is going to assist you or has
the expertise to transform you, you know, some sort of makeup
service and somebody who might have a variety of wigs and a
variety of costumes that you canwear to put you into that put
you into that persona. Ona but what did it was it doing
(15:21):
you you made the appointment youput down your credit card or
your cash you've done these things that are allowing you to
them be fulfilled. So something you're maybe not
ready to do on your own like you're not going to go to the
store. You're not going to buy these
things. You're not going to go online
and buy a wig and shoes. If you're not ready for that.
You can always go to a service that will quote unquote force
(15:46):
you to do it, but at the end of the day it really is you Being
ready at that particular moment in that particular way to say,
you know what? I'm ready to go.
See somebody who specializes in male to female Transformations
and then you go do it and then you find out it's like I put my
life in this person's hands transform me facially with with
(16:07):
all the the body contouring stuff and with his dress and
then he spin you around and lookin the mirror, you know, like,
oh my God, I can't believe I could look this way.
Right and I think that over the Years, especially as my
coaching. My feminization coaching
practice has kind of expanded. I found a way to find my voice
(16:28):
when it comes to being more of adominating presence using
language like you were going to write you were going to wear bra
and panties every day this week.Okay, and then the following
week you are going to wear bra and panties and you are going to
add a wig. I mean, I just I'm not saying I
just said that last week, but I literally Just said that last
(16:50):
week. So I think that finding my voice
in this whole thing and gaining the confidence knowing that that
is what this person wants or needs in something that I'm
like, okay in order to meet my intention for them and their
intention is to transform as a female and not everyone just
(17:11):
like with learning disabilities or learning challenges or
anything not everyone learns thesame way just like not
everyone's feminisation. In Journey is the same right?
Some people need especially being conditioned as mail their
entire life. They need someone that's going
to be this strong force and say this is what is going to happen.
(17:34):
But even so I will then check inand be like, are you okay with
that? Because that goes back to your
nature it does and I it's more how do you feel about that?
And are you okay what I just didhim.
My voice was no. Got a few little Katie.
Oh, right, you're trying to get you trying to get them to
process what's happening. You're trying to get them to
(17:57):
feeling in articulate the like or dislike or the ambivalence to
what's being done and that is getting them to to understand
that and feel it and kind of Center it right and maybe it's
just for my own Comfort level. I need to know that they're
okay. Everyone needs something a
little bit different and I'm a professional you are.
(18:19):
So while you're there to to you you open your hand and allow
them to take your hand and you walk with them on their Journey.
You're not dragging them forwardon their Journey, you know to
get to that next step. But if they say drag me I take a
moment and say let me get back to you.
Let me think about what that means and how I convinced.
(18:42):
It is my job to meet them where they're at.
And it was my job to figure out how to best care for them within
my my ethics just stretch that little bit Yeah and just makes
sense. Yeah, you are you're providing
the service to to the degree they want so again it goes but
(19:02):
it counts he goes. We keep talking about force
feminization as a title in like this kinky BDSM kind of idea,
but when it comes to feminization like said, there is
no such thing as being forced. There's only the fact that the
person is saying to you Julie, please I need you to do this for
(19:23):
me in this manner. And again, they're they're
telling you what they need, right?
It's not you like saying you will, you know, I'm going to
whip you until you decide you'reready to do it.
Nah, I'm gonna make you buy these boots on sale at
T.J.Maxx.com and you will pay full price.
Whoa, whoa easy easy. That's all right.
(19:44):
That might be going way over thetop.
I don't think anybody's gonna cross the line.
You never want to play. Yeah.
I know we're kind of like we're on began during off like in two
different areas of this but to get back to the main point and
we kind of keep reiterating is that Force them ization at his
(20:05):
heart is strictly a way to allowthe mail to find or discover or
be presented their feminine Persona or a feminine energy in
a way that is currently outside the scope of their willingness
to do on their own and I find that to be the case even for me
(20:27):
when I was in in New York in the90s when I was married, you know
couple of her friends. I came over and they did my
makeup for me and we went out orthey took me shopping and they
were more Dead Mother's anythingelse, but they provided me a
service in their friendship. That was purely something I
wasn't ready willing or had the understanding or a capacity to
(20:49):
do on my own. So the idea is like I could
like. Oh, let me look up the course
pack of that those days. There was no such thing as the
services that I was aware of, but they existed.
There's like Miss Vera's finishing school.
There's like all So like kind ofservices out there that provide
these types of services that either allow you to experience a
(21:10):
kink the way you want it like I want be dressed as a sissy and
I'm going to serve you or I'm going to like being on my hands
and knees and you're going to put your boots on my back and
I'm going to serve as an ottomanfor you or you will tell me what
to do and I'll have to do I meanthose things exist and they're
all kind of like versions of this feminization process that
(21:33):
you either get. Get you there mentally get you
there physically get you there in a way that you would not have
done for yourself until and thatmight be your link kink in the
might make you very happy for the rest of your life or also my
provide you that springboard to be okay with your femininity and
be okay with like not just beingin somebody's dungeon or being
(21:55):
in somebody's makeup chair to bespun around to be seen in their
Studio. It might be that turning point
or that Point that says, oh my God, I could be this somebody
else did it for me by realize? Oh my God.
I can be this woman right? I can be this feminine Persona,
right and I it's interesting because a few of the clients
(22:15):
that I met fairly recently have been transgender and their end
goal has been to transition intoa quote full female.
So there has been the whole cross-dressing piece more of a
focus on a Eroticism, you know, especially like the the school
(22:36):
the naughty schoolgirl and then there's this real deep Longing
To kind of humiliate almost likeit could flip the genders almost
like to humiliate the man in theman.
That was the man shell that theywere stuck with all these years
and to emerge as this as the female that they are and so the
(22:58):
idea is when I metaphorically, you know, turn this chair around
that they see the woman Not onlythe Woman Within but the woman
on the outside that suddenly theoutside match the inside them in
order to get there. It had to be done with the kind
of guidance that involves some Force.
Yeah. Yeah.
(23:19):
So it's very interesting. I can't speak to the fact that
it's mostly crossdressers most some are transitioning
transgender women. So it's a real mixed bag and
it's fascinating. There's so much to it.
Yeah. A lot of it can derive from this
fantasy fiction like we talked about at the beginning and then
some of it not at all. Some of it can come from a place
(23:41):
a very like a childhood place where the last time they
remember, you know, being forcedto dress a certain way and would
like the idea of you remember having to get dressed up to go
to an event and not wanting to wear a tie or not wanting to I
remember not wanting to wear certain dress and my mom's kind
of made me or for wanting to wear my hair back in a ponytail
(24:03):
and she Forced me to kind of wear it down for me.
It's what I want to be feminine.I want to dress a certain way,
but I've never been forced to dress a way that I wasn't
comfortable with as a boy or I mean I hate ties.
I will say that at the outset. I hate ties.
I hear anything that constricts the neck.
I just don't feel comfortable with that in general, but I'll
(24:25):
do it because I know that's a convention if you're going to a
wedding funeral and event, you know, that's expected.
But then I've also realized overthe years.
That it might be expected but it's not a mandate.
You know, I don't have to wear atie.
If I don't really want to I'll just wear something else.
That's very dressy but more me so yeah, I agree with you.
I've had that those all those those milestones and says, oh
(24:48):
you have to go to the funeral guy where you know suit, I don't
wanna so that's just more of a personal choice and people
forcing me. But socially the idea was I
should wear these things in a certain way, right?
What's appropriate for the event?
Right, right. So I think that was kind of
drummed Into Me Maybe by parentsor by Society but like, you
know, I hit my 40s and I'm like,you know what?
(25:10):
I'm dressed the way I want I'll wear this nice vest and my dress
shirt that's open in like just kind of have that more
metrosexual kind of look that a stuffy Ty and I don't want to
get too far off the topic but like if you go to a wedding and
we're like a spoon die and stufflike that.
You can pull off a Converse likewe have already discussed this
(25:32):
like mammals like for sure. Like there's a certain
percentage of people that can pull off a Converse which is
like, you know, I'm not a giant fuck you too, like the bride and
groom but it's basically like it's a statement.
Yeah, Ryan don't even notice andPSI were Converse down the
freakin aisle at my wedding gown, but I digress I think that
(25:54):
there is absolutely ways now to look appropriate and put your
own personal comfort and yeah onit.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
I mean how many me how many women do you know go to a
wedding reception and kick off those mandatory heels throw them
under the table because there are going to be in stockings or
the ballet slippers for the restof the night.
(26:15):
Oh my mother-in-law carries likea drawstring bag like it.
Yeah, so it's like it's like we do things because we're supposed
to male or female as we just mentioned.
And again, there's really no absolute.
Why do we have to do it? Why do I have a little concern
away? Because you know, somebody told
us Supposed to and just I need sure if someone tells me you
(26:37):
have to go left. You have to go life.
Like I will go right so freakinghard unless you like drugged me
and cuffed me and like stuck me in a van and like literally
painted on lipstick. Like if I don't want to wear
lips, I don't know. I don't think I'd be one of
those clients that I could just do this.
Please force me make me it wasn't there's a whole point
(26:58):
right? It's like, please force me wait
you're saying please but you want to be before.
Yeah that kind of makes No senseto me.
So and again, that's That's the basis is like when I went and I
had my first makeover. I just said okay.
I'm here. I'm little scared.
I don't know I came in mail mode.
I'm here and you're treated me nicely and you're taking me to
(27:18):
your little side office with themakeup chair and all the wigs
and stuff all around it and she's like, well, what do you
want me to do Mike? I'm your canvas to do whatever
you want because I didn't know Imean wasn't forcing me to do
anything. But again, it's at surface to
say I don't know what I need to be.
(27:38):
I don't know what I'm supposed to look like.
I don't know what my feminine expression is or should be like
what is best for me? There's one thing I always look
this way, you know, like I don'tknow that's not a good idea.
I'm just saying but yeah, it's like they when I got spun around
I was like, oh wow, that's something I could see.
Being developed further for me. It's really interesting.
(27:59):
As you're talking my mind. I'm listening and my mind is
flashing to all of these closetsthat I cleaned out where I
literally was like you need to get rid of this because you just
told me it has no place in your life.
Like I had like a list of like different things and like
there's such resistance or like just the whole experience of
(28:20):
shopping with someone and tryingsomething on that.
They're a little like, that's not my style and I Just like you
paid for service. Please.
Trust me. Overall my God.
Yes - try it on you turn around and there's that moment that I
miss very much and I don't get it by choice.
(28:41):
I don't get it a lot because I don't work with a lot of people
in person. The malls are closed My Life
Choices have changed in terms ofmy job.
But this moment where they see themselves where they've been
this totally submissive. Vulnerable I will do it.
I will take I will I'm paying for this I signed up for this
willing participant and they seethemselves for the first time in
(29:06):
in a piece of clothing that actually fits their body.
Hello. It is a magical moment or they
see themselves as beautiful for the first time like those
moments. I have shared with people and
they involve such vulnerability.I've never looked at it as like
force feminisation or forced. However, you want to fill in
that blank. But it kind of is like they
(29:28):
signed up for it and I did add some pressure added more
pressure than I would like, but I'm sure they liked and they
trusted me and they felt safe. So whether it be believing
someone when they say trust me let go of this item in your
closet stick it in a trunk and if you're not, you know crying
(29:50):
about it in a couple of months, but in the trash, yeah, that is
you're giving someone else permission.
Into play with your life in sucha way.
I do and also based on that story you are forcing them or
they are forcing themselves to put themselves in your hand to
be like, I would never wear thatjump that jumper or that Romper
(30:15):
and you're like, oh no this would be perfect for you and
then they have to trust that you're right if they like no, I
would never wear that because I know in the car behind me and
then you present that to them and you Quote unquote force them
to try it on and then it turned around in the dressing room the
three-sided mirrors and say oh my God, this looks amazing on
(30:36):
me. You did force them to do it
outside their own comfort zone because they didn't know that it
could be possible. So that's where you're forced to
yeah, that's really the only wayI could see is really a forcing
of them to rely on you to put their trust in you to put their
trust in whoever that person is that's going to provide this
service to say I Can do this foryou I can get you to where you
(30:59):
say you would like to be but youhave to trust me and that is a
huge obstacle to overcome for a lot of people huge.
Yeah huge and it's I want to geta bumper sticker at one point.
Like if my business was a bumpersticker.
It would be I would never think about putting that together.
I would never thought that that would look good.
(31:21):
But because having someone else show you what's possible.
Well for yourself beyond your own limited mind or your limited
scope or your comfort level of you know, mixing and matching a
capsule wardrobe of these particular muted tones, and then
someone suddenly shows you colorand texture and cut and this is
(31:42):
what actually fits you. Did.
You know that you've been wearing something that was two
sizes too big. Yeah how many years?
I mean, it's an oral or a shoe that didn't fit because that's
what you thought. She should feel like it is.
Yes, oh my goodness believable. It's just unbelievable.
Well, it's like me I go the opposite way.
(32:02):
I was like this dress is three sizes too small and I look like
a sausage link, but I feel pretty are like you might feel
pretty but you only look at it. Yeah, I like crossdressers in
the heels. Their idea of a sexy heel is a
Surface certain amount of inchesand just you know, add a
freaking wedge to that and that's fine because it actually
(32:23):
it gives you the height without giving you the Right there all
these tricks that if you allow someone in to be like let me
show you how it's done. That is so vulnerable.
It is it is a lot of people as men to make that choice or make
that decision to surrender your masculinity or a couple things
(32:45):
one one, you're surrendering your masculinity for this want
of a female presentation Persona, whatever and to you're
saying, oh my God, I'm putting my life in this.
Other person's hands both both very vulnerable situations and
ideas and Concepts. So yeah, you are forcing
yourself to rely on somebody else in to put trust in somebody
(33:09):
else. So again, if that's only thing
that we can say is forced its that it's forcing to do
something for yourself to be whoyou really want to be and I say
we could go on for hours and hours and hours I may because
again, this is psychology goes into BDSM goes into sis.
Keishon goes to 2. Yeah, you know the infant
(33:31):
Dynamic there's so many things that were just scratching the
surface on I totally agree. We're just scratching the
surface and it would be amazing if when this episode airs if in
the comment section people who could just go freaking wild
sharing their stories with forcefeminization sharing questions,
(33:52):
they have sharing anything and everything regarding to
regarding this topic. Epic and that we can revisit it
absolutely and try to make covermore ground.
Yeah, there's so much to it. We're just giving you the tip of
the iceberg. There's so much more depth to it
this almost more psychology to it and we know what we know from
(34:13):
your clients and for my experience, but yes, I want to
hear from others. I want to hear from you the
listener. It says I remember the first
time I paid for the surface or Iwent to miss Vera School
finishing school, right? Did this subsists afire?
Yeah, yeah, all those things have like why why did you do it?
How did it make you feel? What was the end result?
(34:35):
I mean did it change the course of who you are in your
authenticity? Yeah.
Those are amazing stories to hear ya Savannah.
I adore you adore you as well and tune in next time to The Fox
and the Phoenix podcast. Thanks for joining us on this
journey. Bye for now until next.
(35:01):
You can find me on Facebook at Savannah hawk or at living with
cross-dressing and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's ha UK and to learn more go to my website
living with cross-dressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and hanger or at MTF style as well as on
our website at Fox and hanger.com.
(35:25):
Julie it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses. Anchor copyright 2021.
Yes nailed it. We would love to hear from you
because your story matters. Please comment and share on
Facebook at Fox and Phoenix podcast or on Instagram at the
(35:47):
fox and Phoenix podcast underscore.
You're listening to The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
understanding the feminine cross-dressing experience.
I'm span of hog, crossdresser and author of the living with
cross-dressing book series, and I'm Julie Rubenstein proud Ally
and co-founder of fox and hanger.com a feminine styling
(00:27):
and life coaching service for crossdressers.
And transgender women. Hey, Savannah.
Hey, Julie, how are you today? I'm doing fabulous.
How are you? Great to connect with you again.
As always on Sunday. Guess what day it is today?
What's today today is the fox and the Phoenix podcast, but it
(00:48):
is also the day where we get to discuss a topic that both you
and I have knowledge and information about but we like to
unpack it and develop them. A better understanding and
that's the whole topic of forcedfeminization.
Hey, hey, whoa, I mean, so you're talking about like if I
(01:09):
was standing on the street corner and an unmarked van came
up and slit open and for feminists would like drag me
inside and take me back to the warehouse to force me into
women's clothing. I mean, yes, and no.
Oh, okay. So no that is not the teaser.
That is not what we are talking about.
(01:32):
Alright, we are talking about a concept that has kind of its
come up for me a lot through theclients.
I've worked with and just the name force feminization is
something that instantly I get like a gut reaction of like I'm
not going to force them to do anything.
I consent culture but actually alarge part of it.
(01:55):
The main part of it is consent it is it is absolutely cousin,
but it could I back up to the stand on a street corner and
having the people like like you grabbed me off the street and
take me forcibly to some unknownlocation force me to wear
women's clothing and then forcedme onto hormones and force me
into breast augmentation and do all these things against my will
(02:16):
that is a huge huge like Sure, in terms of erotica if fiction I
can't tell you know what this istalking to his talking about
like if you go to fiction Mania or TG stories or different
places like that. I mean they have there's a lot
of like fan writers who write specifically to this very very
(02:40):
non consent culture of forcing somebody to become a woman and
it's uh, it's um, very erotic and very it's like a turn-on
like, you know these these You know crossdressers and whoever
else can like read these storiesand feel like oh my God, I'm
giving up everything. I'm part of this story and how
much control yeah. Wow.
(03:01):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean really is something
to be like being afraid to take a next step into a feminine
world and defining a feminine Spirit by its those stories like
a look at if you just took it all out of my hands and it just
happened to me. I would be so happy once the
results were there, but that's that's Fiction that's fiction.
(03:22):
Right? That's I want to like make that
clarification because what you and I need to talk about is not
about erotica or fiction in thisidea of like all against my will
and I was forced or hypnotized or whatever into you know, a
female role of female role but into the real and practical idea
(03:48):
of what forced ation is which there is a little bit of charge
and eroticism to it sure to it being kind of attractive.
Yeah, right. Yes not always but the idea that
I'm not a man. I was just say as men.
We I'm not a man spoiler not a man, but just the idea of let's
(04:15):
say, all right, so I'm going to put it in terms of being a woman
so I know I've heard That for women the idea of being
dominated is very attractive. So do you think that the idea is
such a turn-on because as a malespecies there's this pressure to
(04:35):
make all the decisions to be on this white horse for your
family, you know for your spousefor your colleagues and just the
idea of having someone forced address on you.
If that's if that's your idea ofwhat a woman looks like to force
feminization on to do think that's very erotic because you
(04:59):
don't have to make all the decisions.
Someone else is the more powerful one and you're kind of
the submissive weak individual. Yeah.
Yeah. There's so much psychology to
what you just said. So let's unpack that the female
of the species and again, I'm not this is grain of salt.
So please don't take it as you know verbatim.
(05:20):
But the human take notes and a Sharpie.
No, no, please put that down. But the idea that the female of
the species is the weaker of thespecies is the dominated or the
submissive one to be a man and then quote unquote be forced to
be in this docile in dominated role in and of itself is
(05:44):
symbolic. There's a lot of some symbology
to I'm going to force you into aFrench maid.
Outfit because in the male brain, there's so many conceits
already attributed to a French maid like do they serve me there
in this skimpy little outfit, you know, it's all very
(06:05):
feminine. It's all very, you know, there's
an Allure to it and there's a kink to it that if I were to be
put into the outfit I would kindof feel humiliated as a man, but
then like kind of like being drawn or forced into this role
of Servitude in this very feminine way that fulfills that
(06:26):
part of the brain that is telling the mail.
It's like you are now in his role you are now this female
creature by the fact that you'vedone this clothing and are now
in this role that only women have, you know in our brains and
I keep on thinking about this idea of like men manly men
(06:46):
getting in touch with their femininity that and itself is I
understand how some would look at that as humiliating or
shameful or something that they would only do if they decided
that they wanted to be humiliated and shamed and maybe
even forced there's so much to this topic and I have had
(07:10):
several clients that one asking their intention.
They say things to me like like find me clothes online where I
feel humiliated. Well, what kind of clothing
would that be? Well, that's what that's exactly
what I asked and then together we kind of got into the many
(07:31):
different ways that that could look for them.
And one of the ways that it could look for them.
Is this whole you know, sissy culture.
Yeah you an impact that a littlewith me.
I mean, yeah, I don't know that much about the sissy culture
other than it kind of goes back to the same psychology of
Relinquishing control, you know,you are you're being told what
(07:55):
to do your dress in a very satiny Petticoat e you all the
all these kind of fineries that is that we have attributed to
this type of person. You know, your when are we at
our most vulnerable most vulnerable when we were babies
when we were little girls. I mean I'm speaking to my
(08:16):
gender, but it has been reflected in this kind of sissy
culture. The idea that if I was to Google
or if I was to search on Etsy sissy dresses or sissy culture
look that up. There's a lot of freely.
There's a lot of Frills. There's a lot of pink like
there's almost like a very Sheenpink like it's almost like how
(08:41):
you think of dressing a sexy baby.
That was like kind of 80s like before babies were like it was
on Trend to literally dress babies as Lized beings literally
maybe you ever seen a baby in like thigh-highs because I have
no I have not. Oh, yeah.
It's a thing now and it's disgusting but we live in a in a
(09:06):
very over sexualized culture. So there's that piece.
Is that babies today little literal when babies are being
dressed like very kinky very well.
That's weird. It's wrong and a lot of
different ways. Look it up.
I know I will do we look I guessI'm writing that down right now
with my Sharpie because that is something I want to learn more
(09:27):
about. You know, I um, it's something
that I've noticed my daughter isturning 9, so I'm not exactly in
it. But I have taken note of it over
the past couple of years that babies are, you know, get these
socks that come up to their thighs.
Yeah lace and Frills, but back to the sissy baby little girl
(09:49):
culture. There's there.
It's a lot of pink. It's a lot of satin.
There's like this particular color pink.
There's a purple. There's almost like that baby
yellow. It's almost like you have a
color palette of like five or six different choices.
Yeah, right. You got the Frills.
You've got these Bloomers that almost look like diapers and I
(10:11):
haven't even gotten to the like Lolita.
I'm just talking about the most vulnerable.
Let's be a baby little girl, right?
Well, I mean he was goes up to like Goes from like the baby but
you still dress in it. Like said that Little Bo Peep
kind of motif where your even asyour quote-unquote growing
through these stages where you're still dressed in a very
(10:32):
I'm going to my first communion or I'm gonna go in as very kind
of like a Grimm fairy tale type of like dress with like the
petticoats all underneath it andit's right very sexualized in
today's world. But yet in our brains we have so
Associated that idea or that look or that concept.
Went to being very feminized that while as a man.
(10:54):
I would be humiliated to be dressed that way.
But if you go ahead and you wantthat service of being dressed
that way which then goes back tothe fact that force feminization
really is not forced because you're paying for the service,
you know, it's there's a humiliation of like, oh my God.
(11:16):
I'm now this person that says person did to me and it's a very
very like, Hurt on, right and just out of the fact that
someone me peeking out someone'sclothes and saying you are going
to wear. This is very erotic for people
me being this this mistress kindof Dom Dom personality that says
(11:39):
you will wear this and I try to approach every client with with
loving-kindness, right? And so within that there's that
middle ground of Wanting to meetthis person's needs, right?
So for me, I think this Middle Ground has come from just
describing the hunt process and kind of what I found before.
(12:01):
They see the lookbook. I think that's the happy medium
that we have come come to and I say, oh you're going to feel so
humiliated like this is awesome.Like you're not forcing anything
but you're saying you're gonna feel this way when you see what
I'm going to show you again. If you do this, you know, you're
gonna feel and that That meets their needs.
Yeah and throughout the lookbookthere the style notes that every
(12:27):
article of clothing has the linkattached to it as well as a
style note, but I will make it Iwill tap into that vulnerability
and that charge that they crave and tune into that with my
description. Right?
Like for example are Bloomers, you know, you will feel
embarrassed and and then tune into the texture of the item,
(12:49):
which is So another huge Kink a huge piece of it.
Is that sensory piece? Yes.
So the silkiness verse this structured button down what they
wear during their mail mode suddenly, they're humiliated.
So let's go there, you know you the silky satin.
So what you've done basically isbridged the gap between the
(13:11):
Practical quote-unquote force feminization and the literary
erotica that we talked about at the top of the show.
Where you are, they're getting they're getting like in this
moment. They're getting into this story
that you're telling them withoutyou forcing them to practically
do anything for your psyche. Oh my god, when you wear these
(13:31):
you're gonna be so dot dot and that's turned that's that is
erotic storytelling can do many things and if you are, right, I
mean any sort of literary work can have an impact and there
really is no difference to it being called erotica because Is
deemed it as such and oh that's XXX rated versus 50 Shades of
(13:54):
Grey which every housewife in America has red because it was
erotic and forbidden. But yet now it's three movies.
That's perfect. And it's in his guys and is
perfect for what you're doing. I think what we wanted to talk
about. What we want to talk about is
the idea that the culture of force feminization like we said
is not forced know again, maybe he's picking me up on a street
(14:17):
corner and nobody's like dragging me.
Chloroform in me too. I wake up one day with like, you
know, ee boobs in a vagina that doesn't happen a lot of
chloroform. It made me chuckle.
Oh my God. I'm so groggy.
What was this big pressure on mychest?
Yeah, and it's not as your new boobs that somebody your ex-wife
(14:39):
like, you know pay somebody a million dollars to do to you,
you know, that's not the case that case is in reality case the
case in reality is that for Feminization as we said is
typically a service is to be something that you go into
knowingly and willingly but whatit does do is it does take some
(15:01):
responsibility out of your handsbecause wind your put into the
hands of her professional that is going to assist you or has
the expertise to transform you, you know, some sort of makeup
service and somebody who might have a variety of wigs and a
variety of costumes that you canwear to put you into that put
you into that persona. Ona but what did it was it doing
(15:21):
you you made the appointment youput down your credit card or
your cash you've done these things that are allowing you to
them be fulfilled. So something you're maybe not
ready to do on your own like you're not going to go to the
store. You're not going to buy these
things. You're not going to go online
and buy a wig and shoes. If you're not ready for that.
You can always go to a service that will quote unquote force
(15:46):
you to do it, but at the end of the day it really is you Being
ready at that particular moment in that particular way to say,
you know what? I'm ready to go.
See somebody who specializes in male to female Transformations
and then you go do it and then you find out it's like I put my
life in this person's hands transform me facially with with
(16:07):
all the the body contouring stuff and with his dress and
then he spin you around and lookin the mirror, you know, like,
oh my God, I can't believe I could look this way.
Right and I think that over the Years, especially as my
coaching. My feminization coaching
practice has kind of expanded. I found a way to find my voice
(16:28):
when it comes to being more of adominating presence using
language like you were going to write you were going to wear bra
and panties every day this week.Okay, and then the following
week you are going to wear bra and panties and you are going to
add a wig. I mean, I just I'm not saying I
just said that last week, but I literally Just said that last
(16:50):
week. So I think that finding my voice
in this whole thing and gaining the confidence knowing that that
is what this person wants or needs in something that I'm
like, okay in order to meet my intention for them and their
intention is to transform as a female and not everyone just
(17:11):
like with learning disabilities or learning challenges or
anything not everyone learns thesame way just like not
everyone's feminisation. In Journey is the same right?
Some people need especially being conditioned as mail their
entire life. They need someone that's going
to be this strong force and say this is what is going to happen.
(17:34):
But even so I will then check inand be like, are you okay with
that? Because that goes back to your
nature it does and I it's more how do you feel about that?
And are you okay what I just didhim.
My voice was no. Got a few little Katie.
Oh, right, you're trying to get you trying to get them to
process what's happening. You're trying to get them to
(17:57):
feeling in articulate the like or dislike or the ambivalence to
what's being done and that is getting them to to understand
that and feel it and kind of Center it right and maybe it's
just for my own Comfort level. I need to know that they're
okay. Everyone needs something a
little bit different and I'm a professional you are.
(18:19):
So while you're there to to you you open your hand and allow
them to take your hand and you walk with them on their Journey.
You're not dragging them forwardon their Journey, you know to
get to that next step. But if they say drag me I take a
moment and say let me get back to you.
Let me think about what that means and how I convinced.
(18:42):
It is my job to meet them where they're at.
And it was my job to figure out how to best care for them within
my my ethics just stretch that little bit Yeah and just makes
sense. Yeah, you are you're providing
the service to to the degree they want so again it goes but
(19:02):
it counts he goes. We keep talking about force
feminization as a title in like this kinky BDSM kind of idea,
but when it comes to feminization like said, there is
no such thing as being forced. There's only the fact that the
person is saying to you Julie, please I need you to do this for
(19:23):
me in this manner. And again, they're they're
telling you what they need, right?
It's not you like saying you will, you know, I'm going to
whip you until you decide you'reready to do it.
Nah, I'm gonna make you buy these boots on sale at
T.J.Maxx.com and you will pay full price.
Whoa, whoa easy easy. That's all right.
(19:44):
That might be going way over thetop.
I don't think anybody's gonna cross the line.
You never want to play. Yeah.
I know we're kind of like we're on began during off like in two
different areas of this but to get back to the main point and
we kind of keep reiterating is that Force them ization at his
(20:05):
heart is strictly a way to allowthe mail to find or discover or
be presented their feminine Persona or a feminine energy in
a way that is currently outside the scope of their willingness
to do on their own and I find that to be the case even for me
(20:27):
when I was in in New York in the90s when I was married, you know
couple of her friends. I came over and they did my
makeup for me and we went out orthey took me shopping and they
were more Dead Mother's anythingelse, but they provided me a
service in their friendship. That was purely something I
wasn't ready willing or had the understanding or a capacity to
(20:49):
do on my own. So the idea is like I could
like. Oh, let me look up the course
pack of that those days. There was no such thing as the
services that I was aware of, but they existed.
There's like Miss Vera's finishing school.
There's like all So like kind ofservices out there that provide
these types of services that either allow you to experience a
(21:10):
kink the way you want it like I want be dressed as a sissy and
I'm going to serve you or I'm going to like being on my hands
and knees and you're going to put your boots on my back and
I'm going to serve as an ottomanfor you or you will tell me what
to do and I'll have to do I meanthose things exist and they're
all kind of like versions of this feminization process that
(21:33):
you either get. Get you there mentally get you
there physically get you there in a way that you would not have
done for yourself until and thatmight be your link kink in the
might make you very happy for the rest of your life or also my
provide you that springboard to be okay with your femininity and
be okay with like not just beingin somebody's dungeon or being
(21:55):
in somebody's makeup chair to bespun around to be seen in their
Studio. It might be that turning point
or that Point that says, oh my God, I could be this somebody
else did it for me by realize? Oh my God.
I can be this woman right? I can be this feminine Persona,
right and I it's interesting because a few of the clients
(22:15):
that I met fairly recently have been transgender and their end
goal has been to transition intoa quote full female.
So there has been the whole cross-dressing piece more of a
focus on a Eroticism, you know, especially like the the school
(22:36):
the naughty schoolgirl and then there's this real deep Longing
To kind of humiliate almost likeit could flip the genders almost
like to humiliate the man in theman.
That was the man shell that theywere stuck with all these years
and to emerge as this as the female that they are and so the
(22:58):
idea is when I metaphorically, you know, turn this chair around
that they see the woman Not onlythe Woman Within but the woman
on the outside that suddenly theoutside match the inside them in
order to get there. It had to be done with the kind
of guidance that involves some Force.
Yeah. Yeah.
(23:19):
So it's very interesting. I can't speak to the fact that
it's mostly crossdressers most some are transitioning
transgender women. So it's a real mixed bag and
it's fascinating. There's so much to it.
Yeah. A lot of it can derive from this
fantasy fiction like we talked about at the beginning and then
some of it not at all. Some of it can come from a place
(23:41):
a very like a childhood place where the last time they
remember, you know, being forcedto dress a certain way and would
like the idea of you remember having to get dressed up to go
to an event and not wanting to wear a tie or not wanting to I
remember not wanting to wear certain dress and my mom's kind
of made me or for wanting to wear my hair back in a ponytail
(24:03):
and she Forced me to kind of wear it down for me.
It's what I want to be feminine.I want to dress a certain way,
but I've never been forced to dress a way that I wasn't
comfortable with as a boy or I mean I hate ties.
I will say that at the outset. I hate ties.
I hear anything that constricts the neck.
I just don't feel comfortable with that in general, but I'll
(24:25):
do it because I know that's a convention if you're going to a
wedding funeral and event, you know, that's expected.
But then I've also realized overthe years.
That it might be expected but it's not a mandate.
You know, I don't have to wear atie.
If I don't really want to I'll just wear something else.
That's very dressy but more me so yeah, I agree with you.
I've had that those all those those milestones and says, oh
(24:48):
you have to go to the funeral guy where you know suit, I don't
wanna so that's just more of a personal choice and people
forcing me. But socially the idea was I
should wear these things in a certain way, right?
What's appropriate for the event?
Right, right. So I think that was kind of
drummed Into Me Maybe by parentsor by Society but like, you
know, I hit my 40s and I'm like,you know what?
(25:10):
I'm dressed the way I want I'll wear this nice vest and my dress
shirt that's open in like just kind of have that more
metrosexual kind of look that a stuffy Ty and I don't want to
get too far off the topic but like if you go to a wedding and
we're like a spoon die and stufflike that.
You can pull off a Converse likewe have already discussed this
(25:32):
like mammals like for sure. Like there's a certain
percentage of people that can pull off a Converse which is
like, you know, I'm not a giant fuck you too, like the bride and
groom but it's basically like it's a statement.
Yeah, Ryan don't even notice andPSI were Converse down the
freakin aisle at my wedding gown, but I digress I think that
(25:54):
there is absolutely ways now to look appropriate and put your
own personal comfort and yeah onit.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
I mean how many me how many women do you know go to a
wedding reception and kick off those mandatory heels throw them
under the table because there are going to be in stockings or
the ballet slippers for the restof the night.
(26:15):
Oh my mother-in-law carries likea drawstring bag like it.
Yeah, so it's like it's like we do things because we're supposed
to male or female as we just mentioned.
And again, there's really no absolute.
Why do we have to do it? Why do I have a little concern
away? Because you know, somebody told
us Supposed to and just I need sure if someone tells me you
(26:37):
have to go left. You have to go life.
Like I will go right so freakinghard unless you like drugged me
and cuffed me and like stuck me in a van and like literally
painted on lipstick. Like if I don't want to wear
lips, I don't know. I don't think I'd be one of
those clients that I could just do this.
Please force me make me it wasn't there's a whole point
(26:58):
right? It's like, please force me wait
you're saying please but you want to be before.
Yeah that kind of makes No senseto me.
So and again, that's That's the basis is like when I went and I
had my first makeover. I just said okay.
I'm here. I'm little scared.
I don't know I came in mail mode.
I'm here and you're treated me nicely and you're taking me to
(27:18):
your little side office with themakeup chair and all the wigs
and stuff all around it and she's like, well, what do you
want me to do Mike? I'm your canvas to do whatever
you want because I didn't know Imean wasn't forcing me to do
anything. But again, it's at surface to
say I don't know what I need to be.
(27:38):
I don't know what I'm supposed to look like.
I don't know what my feminine expression is or should be like
what is best for me? There's one thing I always look
this way, you know, like I don'tknow that's not a good idea.
I'm just saying but yeah, it's like they when I got spun around
I was like, oh wow, that's something I could see.
Being developed further for me. It's really interesting.
(27:59):
As you're talking my mind. I'm listening and my mind is
flashing to all of these closetsthat I cleaned out where I
literally was like you need to get rid of this because you just
told me it has no place in your life.
Like I had like a list of like different things and like
there's such resistance or like just the whole experience of
(28:20):
shopping with someone and tryingsomething on that.
They're a little like, that's not my style and I Just like you
paid for service. Please.
Trust me. Overall my God.
Yes - try it on you turn around and there's that moment that I
miss very much and I don't get it by choice.
(28:41):
I don't get it a lot because I don't work with a lot of people
in person. The malls are closed My Life
Choices have changed in terms ofmy job.
But this moment where they see themselves where they've been
this totally submissive. Vulnerable I will do it.
I will take I will I'm paying for this I signed up for this
willing participant and they seethemselves for the first time in
(29:06):
in a piece of clothing that actually fits their body.
Hello. It is a magical moment or they
see themselves as beautiful for the first time like those
moments. I have shared with people and
they involve such vulnerability.I've never looked at it as like
force feminisation or forced. However, you want to fill in
that blank. But it kind of is like they
(29:28):
signed up for it and I did add some pressure added more
pressure than I would like, but I'm sure they liked and they
trusted me and they felt safe. So whether it be believing
someone when they say trust me let go of this item in your
closet stick it in a trunk and if you're not, you know crying
(29:50):
about it in a couple of months, but in the trash, yeah, that is
you're giving someone else permission.
Into play with your life in sucha way.
I do and also based on that story you are forcing them or
they are forcing themselves to put themselves in your hand to
be like, I would never wear thatjump that jumper or that Romper
(30:15):
and you're like, oh no this would be perfect for you and
then they have to trust that you're right if they like no, I
would never wear that because I know in the car behind me and
then you present that to them and you Quote unquote force them
to try it on and then it turned around in the dressing room the
three-sided mirrors and say oh my God, this looks amazing on
(30:36):
me. You did force them to do it
outside their own comfort zone because they didn't know that it
could be possible. So that's where you're forced to
yeah, that's really the only wayI could see is really a forcing
of them to rely on you to put their trust in you to put their
trust in whoever that person is that's going to provide this
service to say I Can do this foryou I can get you to where you
(30:59):
say you would like to be but youhave to trust me and that is a
huge obstacle to overcome for a lot of people huge.
Yeah huge and it's I want to geta bumper sticker at one point.
Like if my business was a bumpersticker.
It would be I would never think about putting that together.
I would never thought that that would look good.
(31:21):
But because having someone else show you what's possible.
Well for yourself beyond your own limited mind or your limited
scope or your comfort level of you know, mixing and matching a
capsule wardrobe of these particular muted tones, and then
someone suddenly shows you colorand texture and cut and this is
(31:42):
what actually fits you. Did.
You know that you've been wearing something that was two
sizes too big. Yeah how many years?
I mean, it's an oral or a shoe that didn't fit because that's
what you thought. She should feel like it is.
Yes, oh my goodness believable. It's just unbelievable.
Well, it's like me I go the opposite way.
(32:02):
I was like this dress is three sizes too small and I look like
a sausage link, but I feel pretty are like you might feel
pretty but you only look at it. Yeah, I like crossdressers in
the heels. Their idea of a sexy heel is a
Surface certain amount of inchesand just you know, add a
freaking wedge to that and that's fine because it actually
(32:23):
it gives you the height without giving you the Right there all
these tricks that if you allow someone in to be like let me
show you how it's done. That is so vulnerable.
It is it is a lot of people as men to make that choice or make
that decision to surrender your masculinity or a couple things
(32:45):
one one, you're surrendering your masculinity for this want
of a female presentation Persona, whatever and to you're
saying, oh my God, I'm putting my life in this.
Other person's hands both both very vulnerable situations and
ideas and Concepts. So yeah, you are forcing
yourself to rely on somebody else in to put trust in somebody
(33:09):
else. So again, if that's only thing
that we can say is forced its that it's forcing to do
something for yourself to be whoyou really want to be and I say
we could go on for hours and hours and hours I may because
again, this is psychology goes into BDSM goes into sis.
Keishon goes to 2. Yeah, you know the infant
(33:31):
Dynamic there's so many things that were just scratching the
surface on I totally agree. We're just scratching the
surface and it would be amazing if when this episode airs if in
the comment section people who could just go freaking wild
sharing their stories with forcefeminization sharing questions,
(33:52):
they have sharing anything and everything regarding to
regarding this topic. Epic and that we can revisit it
absolutely and try to make covermore ground.
Yeah, there's so much to it. We're just giving you the tip of
the iceberg. There's so much more depth to it
this almost more psychology to it and we know what we know from
(34:13):
your clients and for my experience, but yes, I want to
hear from others. I want to hear from you the
listener. It says I remember the first
time I paid for the surface or Iwent to miss Vera School
finishing school, right? Did this subsists afire?
Yeah, yeah, all those things have like why why did you do it?
How did it make you feel? What was the end result?
(34:35):
I mean did it change the course of who you are in your
authenticity? Yeah.
Those are amazing stories to hear ya Savannah.
I adore you adore you as well and tune in next time to The Fox
and the Phoenix podcast. Thanks for joining us on this
journey. Bye for now until next.
(35:01):
You can find me on Facebook at Savannah hawk or at living with
cross-dressing and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's ha UK and to learn more go to my website
living with cross-dressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and hanger or at MTF style as well as on
our website at Fox and hanger.com.
(35:25):
Julie it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses. Anchor copyright 2021.
Yes nailed it. We would love to hear from you
because your story matters. Please comment and share on
Facebook at Fox and Phoenix podcast or on Instagram at the
(35:47):
fox and Phoenix podcast underscore.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.