January 22, 2025 • 33 mins
In this episode, Savannah tells Julie a little ole story of a heroine who saves a feminine damsel in distress when said damsel is caught at Starbucks dressed as Savannah by a patron who only knew Savannah in male-mode! Witness an avenging guardian angel who swoops in to save her from that uncomfortable situation! What happens next? Listen in to find out!
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Well.
Hello, Julie. How are you?
I am doing good. I got a Savannah day today and I
(00:49):
woke up 6:30 with the dogs and then at 8 AMI snorted myself
awake like I did one of those crazy snores and I snorted awake
and I'm like, oh shit. And I was awake.
I was sharply awake. Not I'm groggy, I'm going back
to bed. I was sharply awake and I said,
you know what? It seems like this is a good day
to get off my booty, get in the shower, get some shaving in, get
(01:15):
myself all glammed up for the day.
And that's why so I'm actually feel very good about getting out
there and spend a few weeks. But how are you?
I'm OK. I'm just OK.
Just OK and leave it right therein the little package.
We're just leave. It's so rare.
It's so rare that this, you know, one word answer is what
(01:39):
comes out of my mouth. So I think it's a miracle and
we're just going to go with it. OK, you know what?
I'm not here to share. Shame you.
I don't know if that's a thing. Respect and boundaries and all
that and love that. And.
Yes. I'm happy to be here, obviously.
Well, obviously I'm happy we're here together or still just
(02:00):
coming off our hiatus and it's still been a little topsy turvy.
I'm trying to get back into our routine, but as we said in
previous episodes, it's amazing to connect face to face.
And just for the listeners, a little behind the scenes, Julia
was having a little bit of trouble getting her video to
connect. And while you were working on
(02:21):
that technical difficulty, Julie, I was here going, Oh no,
the podcast is not the same if we can't see each other.
So I was anxiety because I definitely feel that you and me
are basically in the same room when we're doing this.
True. So I really want to make sure I
said Oh no I don't want to look at a blank screen, I want to
look at my lovely, lovely Co host.
Oh, that's very sweet. I definitely feel like we're in
(02:43):
the same room. That's why I went all those
years back before I went to see you and you were so like, now it
could be real. And I'm like, wait, it's not
real. You know what I mean?
Because I have always felt this connection and real to me.
I guess connection is out of body for me and enough for me.
Just being able to see each other every week is so profound
(03:05):
and it really feels nice. It's everything for us.
Yeah, before we saw each other or met each other and you flew
out to see us, you know, relationship was based on a
video screen. But it was more than just U.S.
chat, like FaceTime. It definitely was deeper, more
meaningful than all that. Yeah, I love that well today.
(03:25):
Yes, it's your topic. It is.
And I totally forgot about this topic because I shared the
scenario with you. I shared what happened, you
know, like, oh, did this just happen?
I'm like, no, it happened several weeks ago because we
were on hyenas. I totally forgot about it.
I wrote it down as a podcast idea.
So what happened is I want to share a goings on of me being
(03:49):
out and about in my normal hashtag Savannah Starbucks
Sunday. And this has never happened to
me before. I don't think it will ever
happen to me again. It was somewhat surreal.
So anyway, let me over promise on this.
So let me just tell you what happened.
I went to the Starbucks by my work.
For some reason, I didn't want to be the one close to home.
(04:11):
I wanted to travel a little, geta little bit farther away.
I got to hang with all my barista sisters.
And they're all just just like hugging because one of the girls
had never seen me as Savannah. So she only saw me in cosplay.
So I, like, flagged her down. I'm like, hey.
And so we had a couple minutes together and then as usual, I go
right into work mode. Computer's up, looking on my
(04:32):
edits, doing my rewrites, the whole bit, as are the things
I've been talking about for years at this point.
And got him a drink and maybe 1520 minutes later another
patron walks in, who I know he knows as Chuck.
He doesn't know anything about Savannah.
Now, he's an older dude, he's a little grizzled, but he's one of
(04:52):
those guys that like is a regular.
He comes in 8:00 AM every morning for a coffee and then he
bails out and goes and stay entails.
I saw him because I'm facing thedoor.
I said, oh man, do I want to getinto this?
Do I want to do anything about this?
Do I want to flag him down? I don't know where he stands.
Queerness and transness. And I say, you know what I
(05:17):
decided in that moment? I'm not going to do anything
about it. We just heads down and let him
pass by me. And of course, to my surprise
and dismay, he nods at me and says hello.
And I'm like, well this is happening so.
This was meant to be. Yeah, I said out of my hands.
OK, here we go, I said. Hey, Jack.
(05:38):
And of course, I'm dressed up asSavannah.
This is like like, all right, I'm going to let you get through
it, but I have so many questions.
Go ahead, go ahead. So I'm like, hey, Jack?
And he stops because I don't think he knew who I was right
away. He just cocks his head a little
bit and stares at me. I'm like, hey, what's going on,
Jack? I said, you know who I am,
right? And he's like, yeah, but I, I
(06:00):
couldn't read them. First of all, he had sunglasses
out like those transition classes, so I couldn't see his
eyes. I just see this glare of me
staring back at me. Which is crucial.
Which is so like metaphoric. Oh God.
And I'm like, oh, what is he thinking?
What's going on here? I don't know where to go.
He's not giving me anything to go on.
(06:22):
So I said, hey, you know who I am, right?
Yeah, yeah, I know who you are. I'm like, OK, I said, because
you have a look on your face, and I don't know what to do with
it. So then all of a sudden, out of
nowhere, this young woman, probably 18 to 22, sits down
across from me. I don't know who this girl is.
(06:42):
I was like, oh, is she a baristawho's on her break?
And I just didn't realize it. And I don't recognize her.
Well, her hat and apron, she says, hey, did you get a chance
to look at that stuff I sent you?
And I'm like, huh, I didn't. And I'm like, what's happening
right now? I have.
This is so surreal. I have no clue what is going on.
I am at such a loss because I'm like dealing with one part of my
(07:03):
brain with Jack and then this other part of my brain with what
is happening across for me. Yeah, I keep that stuff.
I said this out loud. I really don't know what's
happening right now. I don't know what you mean.
And so at this point, Jack had already started walking away.
And so I'm staring at this. So now I was staring at this
girl. I didn't know what to say.
(07:23):
I was at a loss with her too. It's just I didn't like the way
that was going down and I want to protect you.
I said what? What do you mean?
Well, you I heard what you said to him about not know what to do
with what he was saying or how he was looking.
And I don't appreciate what he was doing.
So I sat down so that he would go away.
I said, oh, well, thank you so much.
(07:44):
I was very sweet of you. It was.
It's like, yeah, I just don't appreciate that.
And then she gets up and walks away and goes back to her table
with some other people she knows.
And then I'm like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And so Jack got his drink. He go sits down in his normal
corner by the door. And I'm like, I don't know what
to do now. I don't know if Jack.
Is the. Issue.
(08:04):
All right, Can I just. All right, I've given you enough
time right now. It's affecting my ability to
listen. OK?
Because there's so many questions swirling around and I
don't even know if I want you toanswer them.
I just want to throw out the questions of them.
You're great for this because you remember all of them.
First of all, what's really happening?
Like is Jack just saying hi to awoman?
(08:28):
Just hello, like, right. Or that.
Was my impression, yeah. And you're assuming they know
you. I didn't, but I wasn't going to
try to pass it off as, oh, hello.
I wasn't going to be like him being just cordial and kind to
some stranger. I was going to be like, dude, if
I'm committing to this bit, I'm going all in.
Which was like, hey Jack, hey, Iknow you.
(08:49):
So I think you get the chance not to.
That is ballsy. Second of all, because your
transformation is so different. So I can imagine, and you're
very talented at not playing both roles, but both personas
are very different, right? And so the idea that you would
be in public and have this thought that the chuckness is
(09:13):
revealed through Savannah's anything must have felt fucking
radical. It was not only surreal, but
radical for you. And also, it doesn't sound like
from what you're saying, that you're like tits were ripped out
from you. It sounds like you were totally
not grounded, right? But you weren't exactly scared
(09:36):
in that moment. You were just confused.
Is that accurate? Confused.
I was confused. I was uncertain about how Jack
was taking it and I didn't know what to do about not knowing
where his head was at on the topic of me.
And then when this girl swoops in to save me, quote UN quote,
and I'm like, now I am completely confused about what
(09:58):
her role was before she's. I don't like that.
I wanted him to go away. That's why I sat down.
I'm like, oh OK, I got where shewas coming from.
But for another hour, I'd still didn't know how Jack was feeling
about it because he didn't come back to me right away.
So I'm like, all right, so how is this going to go down?
Is he not going to ever talk to Chuck again on the weekdays
(10:20):
because he met Savannah and knows Savannah is Chuck?
So first of all, there's got to be a conversation to be had.
Chuck to Jack, Jack to Chuck to really just confirm, because I
have a feeling that it was as surreal for him as it was for
you. OK, That's right.
Yeah, but his surreal moment is just baffling, right?
(10:44):
But for you, because you have gained this comfort zone in your
little creature of habit routines, and you know what to
expect, you've safeguarded the experiences as part of your
creation and as part of your consistency.
And you count on consistency, right?
You count on, if I'm going to get dressed and go out of
(11:06):
Savannah, I'm going to my safe house and I'm going to do the
thing that I do. And there's nothing unexpected
because nothing unexpected happens with Savannah because
she knows who she is. She wrote the book.
I'm doing the internal work. And then something like this
happens that reminds you, oh, wait, I'm trans.
I'm trans in that way that a girl was triggered by what felt
(11:28):
to you just like a weird moment,so much so that they sat and
played this role to which you were just baffled.
But as soon as you got the memo on why, you were like, oh, that
makes sense. I see where her heart's coming
from. Yeah, yes, exactly.
Again, exposing another layer toyour transness that you have not
(11:48):
needed to be vulnerable with it for.
I don't remember how long, you know what I mean?
I don't know, maybe yesterday. I have no clue.
Like even when you brought this topic to me yesterday, my only
response was I have so many questions and that's it.
And that's it. That's all that was said for our
dear listeners. This is active.
You know, like my ability to hear you rather than just read
(12:13):
the topic is totally different. And I find the whole experience
for you if I was to be inside what I know about you.
Humbling, weird, perplexing, andjust a reminder that we're in
new terrain right now. We're in a time where what makes
an ally an ally or what makes a supporter of the trans community
(12:36):
Quote, but I don't know what to do.
Quote means standing in front ofthe fire and saying I will
protect you. I don't know you her projection
could have been what she heard and you could have heard
something totally different. But in that moment she felt in
her body enough Mama cubness to sit down from a complete
stranger who she perceived was being publicly humiliated.
(13:00):
I I feel in the projection of the assumption of what she felt
you were experiencing or she wasexperiencing through you not
knowing any context that you know this person gets an odd
scenario. Why would she?
Who cares? This is so juicy.
It's so much, right? And you are so on point with the
(13:25):
what she heard that required intervention to protect me was
not actually happening. I was a little perplexed by Jack
because I was like hey man, you looks like you got a look on
your face I don't know what to do with.
And he'd hadn't had time to answer yet before she swooped
in. So there was like a 5 second
window where Jack could have answered for me.
(13:46):
I was trying to keep it light even though I was probably a
little concerned because I didn't know which way it was
going to go. That's on me.
I was like, I hope he doesn't reject me or have some off
putting to say so I can understand the vibe might have
been given that off where she was connecting with that
vibration to like step in and dosomething to reroute this
(14:06):
conversation and protect me in that way, which that's never
happened to me before. Nobody's ever swooped in aside
from Judy being head on a swivelwhen she and I, or even she, you
and me, went out. She'll play sniper like she's
got her head, like ready to attack anybody who may do
something. So in that way, yes, from a
(14:27):
personal level, from a partnership level, I've had that
happen. But from a complete stranger,
Yeah, in that way I was like, what the hell?
This has never happened to me before.
This is so huge for you and it'sso juicy and it's why I love
this podcast because you're still experiencing life with
(14:48):
this, just like I'm still experiencing life in my role as
an ally, as part of the community, and it's active and
it's always changing. This experience that happened to
you will obviously make you a better advocate, will make you
think about yourself differently.
It could be healing and all this, but what I wanted to say
is that both you and this randomAngel that came into your past
(15:11):
to save the day, or so she thought, and your bravery to
just all right, I'm going to do this.
I'm just going to say, hey, I'm going to go there.
Even though I'm trepidatious, I'm going to go there with this
person. Both of you were coming from a
place of safety as the motivatorin different ways.
So let me explain. You felt safe enough at this
(15:34):
Starbucks, given the fact that you have an army of baristas,
given the fact that you go thereevery day, given the fact that
you know, if stuff went down that there would be a line and
army of protectors. It was safe enough for you to
risk this moment and go there because you have manifested this
safe space for you in Starbucks to be able to face this thing.
(15:56):
OK, Then you have the random pedestrian that didn't like how
she was perceiving what was happening.
She came from a place of safety for you.
She wanted to keep you safe. She was desperate too, so much
so that she'd flew right in there like I would, like I
would, and sat down and had a dialogue and extrapolated her
(16:18):
feelings about what you were experiencing based on no
information, based on the fact that it wasn't actually
happening from your side. But she wanted to keep you safe.
That was her point. That was her intention.
So that's basically the first step in any sort of manifesto,
any sort of change, any sort of growth, trying something new,
(16:39):
like you can move into somethingwith discomfort.
You have to. You can't like change unless
you're uncomfortable. But the foundation of safety, of
feeling safe, needs to come first.
It needs to come first. You had to develop this history
and this family with the Starbucks in order for you to
get courage to be able to just have this moment.
(17:00):
That, of course, is so surreal. It has never happened to you
before. It is so weird and it is so
something that if we were talking about this, if this had
happened three years ago and we were on the podcast talking
about this, it would be bizarre.It may still have been the first
time this kind of thing happened, but you would have
been younger and so it would have caused your heart to beat a
(17:23):
little faster. It would have, I think based on
all your growth, it would have not been as profound as talking
about it today. I feel at least me being able to
analyze the shit out of it. It just feels so like, wow,
you're a trans woman in in this world.
And just because you're very confident in that space and it
hasn't been a problem for you for many years and this moment
(17:46):
wasn't a problem. It wasn't.
It was just another way to look at your transness, in my
opinion, and just be like, huh, You know what I mean?
Yeah. Yeah.
And that's my projection of how you're in metabolizing this
based on knowing that I'm not you, you're not me.
And we approach things very different.
I'm imagining how I would feel just like this patron did.
(18:08):
I mean. Shit, yeah.
And you talked about safety, andI was thinking there was a lot
of vulnerability, too. Yes, From my point of view, yes,
I felt safe enough to be vulnerable, to lean into the
conversation with Jack and see where it was going to go.
I also have a lot of rejection sensitivity.
And I would have felt terrible. And this was going through the
(18:29):
back of my mind as I'm having this conversation of, oh, what
now? Now he's going to see Chuck
tomorrow or he's going to see Chuck Tuesday, Wednesday, every
day he's here. When I'm here.
Do I now have to avoid him if he's got a problem with me?
All those rejection distortions,those like cognitive distortions
of what I thought might happen, and not because it's not true or
(18:50):
that it may happen, but oh, man,I don't want this to be like a
thing. Now there when I come in,
there's this weird awkwardness between US and then this woman
feeling safe enough and brave enough to be vulnerable, to
insert herself in that situation.
For your safety, not yours. For you to keep you safe.
Well, but still, she's got to feel a certain way to even
(19:11):
interject herself. It takes a certain person to not
just stand by. And so there's something around
that, that she's got to feel a certain way to say I'm doing
this. So she's got to feel safe enough
to do it or feel brave enough todo it.
And that is vulnerable regardless of her perception.
It takes a lot of vulnerability to step in on somebody else's
behalf. And that's why I said we're in a
(19:33):
different landscape right now. We're in a different time in our
lives where people who are advocates are going to be
popping out from anywhere. The people that normally
wouldn't do what she did, maybe she wouldn't have done that six
months ago. Maybe not.
Maybe not three months ago, we don't know.
It was about your safety becauseyou're the vulnerable person,
(19:54):
more vulnerable than she will ever be.
And that's how she was able to get that courage.
It didn't take anything to me ifshe acted without even thinking
it. It just was natural.
It was within her heart. Maybe.
But it still takes us a certain vulnerability to step in.
Not everybody has that. Everybody's, oh, I see somebody
in trouble, Let me jump in to dothat thing.
(20:14):
Whether it's because she's got that under her belt several
times or she's a staunch ally and she's protected many other
people in a very similar vein, I'll never know her full story.
I wish she would have stuck around.
She swooped in with those Angel wings, and once I understood
what was happening, she flitted back away.
I'm like, OK, that happened. PS To the story, by the way,
(20:37):
Jack did finally come back around as if nothing had
happened, as if I was sitting there as Chuck because Jack
comes to me and says, you know, I got to go find tires today.
And. He's like as Savannah, you
sitting there. This wasn't another time.
This was the same. Episode scenario, Yeah.
So same time, but Jack hadn't come around in 1/2 hour.
(21:00):
And as Jack was, I guess, getting ready to leave, he swung
back around. I'm like, oh, Are you sure
they're open? I don't think they're open today
because this is Sunday. Oh, by the way, for any of the
listeners, this is all happeningin the Upstate, in South
Carolina, in the South. So just keep that in perspective
as well. And they were just talking and
chatting about buying tires and we said maybe go to Costco.
(21:22):
Maybe it was just. It's almost like the thing that
happened 30 minutes prior hadn'thappened.
As if. He felt.
As Chuck, so I asked him, I said, so how do you feel about
this? Because I was feeling still
uncertain. This is like when you have a
fight with somebody and then thefight's over and that person
acts like it never happened. And you're like.
But wait, I still have some issues about the fun.
(21:45):
Feelings I got. Feelings we had to work through
it. So I said, hey, so how are you
feeling? Well, it's fine.
She can do you like whatever. And then he tells me a story
about having gone to Catholic school and Catholic college.
He got expelled from said college for pushing a priest.
And then he just like, all right, well, I got to go bye.
(22:05):
Just wait. So you mean to tell me that you
were just two people talking? Yeah, Oh, mind blown.
I know who guys I know who knew.No, that's wild.
Yet it just shows such a monumental shift in.
I'm able to see this from a Magna level right now.
That is so profound as well as Oh my God like this is just the
(22:28):
best topic ever. Yeah, it was crazy.
I love it. It's got some intrigue.
It's got some action, it's got some tender moments and
normalcy. And you know what, at the end of
the day, what is it telling us? The what I took from this as
what I wanted to throw into thistopic was it was my perception
that was problematic. Jack came in, Jack said hi, I
(22:50):
said hi back. He looked at me through his
tinted sunglasses. And I didn't know what to do
about that because my own insecurities and had that woman
not swooped in to save me because of her perception of
events, which I applaud in love.And I was so grateful to her for
wanting to do that for me and making me feel safe.
(23:11):
Love that. And then Jack, had she not
swooped in, Jack would have eventually answered me and and
we would have just gone through this whole conversation without
the 30 minutes in between. And without the topic, but the
Fox and the Fans podcast. Yeah, I said Jack, go away.
I need a topic. No, everything just fell into it
(23:31):
and it just feels like you deserve to have moments like
this, as do I sometimes when we get too comfortable in how
things are and we depend on these certain parts of our lives
to be as such. Sometimes we need a good
scramble of it. Sometimes we need a little bit
of, you know, shifting perspective, if you will.
This episode's all about perspective.
(23:52):
Perspective. Brought to you by the letter P
for perspective. And I also want to touch back on
what you said a little while agothat you were talking about
earlier. In order to change and evolve,
you need to have some discomfortbecause that's where you grow.
And for me, I felt that that day.
I felt like you said I was in mysafe place, a very routine, and
(24:16):
everything happens just as I expect it's going to.
Until that day where two things happened.
I didn't think I was going to see Jack on a weekend and this
woman swoops in to protect me. All things that were completely
out of the normal for me didn't control it.
I had no control of that situation.
It did have a level of discomfort in different ways for
each of those individuals from my perspective.
(24:37):
And yet I grew from it. And I think that's what I want
our listeners to take away from this.
Aside from all the massive amount of wisdom that you're
providing is that you can't control every situation.
But if you're going to be out inthe world, things are going to
happen. They're all not going to be
amazing. They're not all going to be
rainbows and butter cups, but inthis case, something that I was
(24:58):
having a little bit of anxiety about in that moment ended up
not being a moment that deservedanxiety.
It caused me anxiety because of my own perspective, my own
perception of self in my triggers and my anxiety and
rejection sensitivity, all the things I'm carrying around with
me. Jack probably wasn't feeling
that way. You just was saying hi to me.
This woman, had she not heard mywords, probably wouldn't have
(25:22):
felt the necessity to step in. And so what's the lesson for you
in this? The lesson for me is I have a
lot of work to do for myself, asI'm doing now in therapy.
Again, I've talked about rejection sensitivity and just
the fact that I've lived in a world for 1550 some years that
I've built a narrative in my mind of rejection by the masses,
(25:46):
by social acceptance, etcetera, etcetera.
In a lot of ways that is very true.
But when it comes to the microcosm of individual to
individual, I find time and timeagain that is not true.
I came down to South Carolina terrified that the masses were
going to burn me at the stake. And every time I go out, all I
(26:09):
do is see more and more experiences where that is the
exact opposite of what's the truth.
Because when you start talking to people, individuals, and have
a human connection and not just,oh, that guy looked at me funny.
Once you stop building in your own misconception of what's
actually happening, you start finding out that the world is
(26:30):
different than we make it out tobe sometimes.
I like that, Yeah, it's deep. Yes, it is deep.
It is something that I try really hard to work through.
And I find it. Constantly.
Those hooks are in me tight of just constantly.
(26:51):
If something happens, it instantly reverts me back to oh,
that's what's happening. That's how they're feeling.
I'm constantly projecting my owntraumas unto others and I
quickly recognize it as it's happening or after the fact when
you like you feel the feels and then you start having to
intellectualize those feelings. Like you have your emotional
brain and the logical brain and then the wise mind in between.
(27:15):
I'm feeling the feels, I'm recognizing them.
I'm intellectualizing them, themsaying, OK, what's true.
And to me, I've been very blessed to have put myself in a
situation as I've come down South to realize, yeah, that's a
lot of it's me, I'm the problem.It's me, but look what came.
Look what you did with your problem.
(27:36):
Yeah, look at all the lives thatyou have supported and been able
to see because of your problems,because of your pain, because of
your ability to do something with angst.
And in my belief system, in order to get to the wise self,
(27:57):
we need pain and suffering and we need light and love and
awareness in order to get to that higher power.
You can't have one without the other.
You can't try to shame yourself from learning the lessons.
Because there's something I hearwhen you're talking, and that is
something that I hear when I'm saying when I'm talking and my
(28:20):
therapist is listening or whatever.
And that's if I just could suffer less, if I could just be
better, if I could just not be so mean to myself, I would be.
Whatever fantasy version of myself of perfection that
doesn't exist. It doesn't exist because you'll
always have the parents that raised you.
(28:41):
You'll always have different storylines from your past that
creep up beyond logic and reasonthat will permeate through your
present existence and make it soyou keep on going.
I have not known where my passion is for Fox and Hanger
because I've been so depleted. And then what happened?
(29:03):
Trump won. Trump won something that
happened different from what I wanted to happen.
And yet it sparked a fire in me to burn with such anger that I'm
going to use that anger to help a whole lot of people.
And I am. And I found my passion again and
I figured out my purpose again. And so there's no shame in
(29:25):
seeing this experience you had as so tremendously healing and
not replaying it as if it wasn'tfor my projection, I would be
better. And I should have known that.
And I it was me and I'm wrong and I'm bad because that's not
where the learning comes from. That just puts you in a shame
spiral. And this is really a huge,
(29:46):
valuable episode that I'm extremely proud of based on you
and how everything went down, how all the different elements
came together to create this beautiful experience that was
very different from keep on swimming, keep on swimming, keep
on swimming. Something had to shift things so
that you could grow. So I just want to say that at
(30:08):
the end of this episode, yeah. Absolutely.
And just one point on the shame part.
I didn't feel shame per SE because I know that you know
what? This is not the other person's
thing. It's me projecting my own things
on that person. Jack was just walked in and
doing this thing saying hi and Iprojected some anxiety out.
(30:29):
I know. Yeah, so, but I totally get it,
the idea that we blame ourselvesfor the thing wherever The thing
is, and then and use it to go downward as opposed to go
upward. I'm definitely trying very hard
with, like with all these, I don't know, these individualized
things that just happen as growth bull seeds for growth.
(30:50):
And I love that. And I've been chomping at the
bit because I'm like, Oh my God,it's been so long.
This happened weeks ago and I didn't get a chance to tell you
about it because you were neck deep in your own planning for
the bat mitzvah, and I just didn't get a chance to unpack it
with you. So I'm so glad we do it now.
And I've been very, very busy atwork with the toxin hanger
stuff. So I just, I really think that
(31:13):
there's something holy. As much as I miss our constant
contact of yesteryear and there's something to be said
when we're able to come here andfreshly share these bits and
bobs in a very, I view it as a holy space with everyone
listening. I think it's the most authentic,
juicy part of this podcast is when we can do that.
(31:35):
Agreed, I like all packing. Yeah, so this was beautiful and
wonderful and I'd, I hope our listeners enjoyed it as much as
I enjoyed being part of the discussion with you.
Yeah, I feel like this is one ofthose episodes that I feel
changed by and I I appreciate you so much and love you and bye
(31:57):
for now. Until next time.
You can find me on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with
Cross Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK and to learn more, go to my website
(32:18):
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hanger or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhanger.com.
Julie, it's your moment. Fox in the Phoenix podcast uses
anchor. Copyright 2024.
(32:40):
Yes, nailed it. If you enjoy our content and
want to make it easier for others to find us, please share
with your friends, tap the Subscribe or Follow button to
the show wherever you're listening, give it a five star
rating or leave a review. And for show ideas or comments,
(33:01):
contact us through the podcast on Facebook at Fox and Phoenix
Podcast or on Instagram at the Fox and the Phoenix Podcast
under Score.
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Well.
Hello, Julie. How are you?
I am doing good. I got a Savannah day today and I
(00:49):
woke up 6:30 with the dogs and then at 8 AMI snorted myself
awake like I did one of those crazy snores and I snorted awake
and I'm like, oh shit. And I was awake.
I was sharply awake. Not I'm groggy, I'm going back
to bed. I was sharply awake and I said,
you know what? It seems like this is a good day
to get off my booty, get in the shower, get some shaving in, get
(01:15):
myself all glammed up for the day.
And that's why so I'm actually feel very good about getting out
there and spend a few weeks. But how are you?
I'm OK. I'm just OK.
Just OK and leave it right therein the little package.
We're just leave. It's so rare.
It's so rare that this, you know, one word answer is what
(01:39):
comes out of my mouth. So I think it's a miracle and
we're just going to go with it. OK, you know what?
I'm not here to share. Shame you.
I don't know if that's a thing. Respect and boundaries and all
that and love that. And.
Yes. I'm happy to be here, obviously.
Well, obviously I'm happy we're here together or still just
(02:00):
coming off our hiatus and it's still been a little topsy turvy.
I'm trying to get back into our routine, but as we said in
previous episodes, it's amazing to connect face to face.
And just for the listeners, a little behind the scenes, Julia
was having a little bit of trouble getting her video to
connect. And while you were working on
(02:21):
that technical difficulty, Julie, I was here going, Oh no,
the podcast is not the same if we can't see each other.
So I was anxiety because I definitely feel that you and me
are basically in the same room when we're doing this.
True. So I really want to make sure I
said Oh no I don't want to look at a blank screen, I want to
look at my lovely, lovely Co host.
Oh, that's very sweet. I definitely feel like we're in
(02:43):
the same room. That's why I went all those
years back before I went to see you and you were so like, now it
could be real. And I'm like, wait, it's not
real. You know what I mean?
Because I have always felt this connection and real to me.
I guess connection is out of body for me and enough for me.
Just being able to see each other every week is so profound
(03:05):
and it really feels nice. It's everything for us.
Yeah, before we saw each other or met each other and you flew
out to see us, you know, relationship was based on a
video screen. But it was more than just U.S.
chat, like FaceTime. It definitely was deeper, more
meaningful than all that. Yeah, I love that well today.
(03:25):
Yes, it's your topic. It is.
And I totally forgot about this topic because I shared the
scenario with you. I shared what happened, you
know, like, oh, did this just happen?
I'm like, no, it happened several weeks ago because we
were on hyenas. I totally forgot about it.
I wrote it down as a podcast idea.
So what happened is I want to share a goings on of me being
(03:49):
out and about in my normal hashtag Savannah Starbucks
Sunday. And this has never happened to
me before. I don't think it will ever
happen to me again. It was somewhat surreal.
So anyway, let me over promise on this.
So let me just tell you what happened.
I went to the Starbucks by my work.
For some reason, I didn't want to be the one close to home.
(04:11):
I wanted to travel a little, geta little bit farther away.
I got to hang with all my barista sisters.
And they're all just just like hugging because one of the girls
had never seen me as Savannah. So she only saw me in cosplay.
So I, like, flagged her down. I'm like, hey.
And so we had a couple minutes together and then as usual, I go
right into work mode. Computer's up, looking on my
(04:32):
edits, doing my rewrites, the whole bit, as are the things
I've been talking about for years at this point.
And got him a drink and maybe 1520 minutes later another
patron walks in, who I know he knows as Chuck.
He doesn't know anything about Savannah.
Now, he's an older dude, he's a little grizzled, but he's one of
(04:52):
those guys that like is a regular.
He comes in 8:00 AM every morning for a coffee and then he
bails out and goes and stay entails.
I saw him because I'm facing thedoor.
I said, oh man, do I want to getinto this?
Do I want to do anything about this?
Do I want to flag him down? I don't know where he stands.
Queerness and transness. And I say, you know what I
(05:17):
decided in that moment? I'm not going to do anything
about it. We just heads down and let him
pass by me. And of course, to my surprise
and dismay, he nods at me and says hello.
And I'm like, well this is happening so.
This was meant to be. Yeah, I said out of my hands.
OK, here we go, I said. Hey, Jack.
(05:38):
And of course, I'm dressed up asSavannah.
This is like like, all right, I'm going to let you get through
it, but I have so many questions.
Go ahead, go ahead. So I'm like, hey, Jack?
And he stops because I don't think he knew who I was right
away. He just cocks his head a little
bit and stares at me. I'm like, hey, what's going on,
Jack? I said, you know who I am,
right? And he's like, yeah, but I, I
(06:00):
couldn't read them. First of all, he had sunglasses
out like those transition classes, so I couldn't see his
eyes. I just see this glare of me
staring back at me. Which is crucial.
Which is so like metaphoric. Oh God.
And I'm like, oh, what is he thinking?
What's going on here? I don't know where to go.
He's not giving me anything to go on.
(06:22):
So I said, hey, you know who I am, right?
Yeah, yeah, I know who you are. I'm like, OK, I said, because
you have a look on your face, and I don't know what to do with
it. So then all of a sudden, out of
nowhere, this young woman, probably 18 to 22, sits down
across from me. I don't know who this girl is.
(06:42):
I was like, oh, is she a baristawho's on her break?
And I just didn't realize it. And I don't recognize her.
Well, her hat and apron, she says, hey, did you get a chance
to look at that stuff I sent you?
And I'm like, huh, I didn't. And I'm like, what's happening
right now? I have.
This is so surreal. I have no clue what is going on.
I am at such a loss because I'm like dealing with one part of my
(07:03):
brain with Jack and then this other part of my brain with what
is happening across for me. Yeah, I keep that stuff.
I said this out loud. I really don't know what's
happening right now. I don't know what you mean.
And so at this point, Jack had already started walking away.
And so I'm staring at this. So now I was staring at this
girl. I didn't know what to say.
(07:23):
I was at a loss with her too. It's just I didn't like the way
that was going down and I want to protect you.
I said what? What do you mean?
Well, you I heard what you said to him about not know what to do
with what he was saying or how he was looking.
And I don't appreciate what he was doing.
So I sat down so that he would go away.
I said, oh, well, thank you so much.
(07:44):
I was very sweet of you. It was.
It's like, yeah, I just don't appreciate that.
And then she gets up and walks away and goes back to her table
with some other people she knows.
And then I'm like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And so Jack got his drink. He go sits down in his normal
corner by the door. And I'm like, I don't know what
to do now. I don't know if Jack.
Is the. Issue.
(08:04):
All right, Can I just. All right, I've given you enough
time right now. It's affecting my ability to
listen. OK?
Because there's so many questions swirling around and I
don't even know if I want you toanswer them.
I just want to throw out the questions of them.
You're great for this because you remember all of them.
First of all, what's really happening?
Like is Jack just saying hi to awoman?
(08:28):
Just hello, like, right. Or that.
Was my impression, yeah. And you're assuming they know
you. I didn't, but I wasn't going to
try to pass it off as, oh, hello.
I wasn't going to be like him being just cordial and kind to
some stranger. I was going to be like, dude, if
I'm committing to this bit, I'm going all in.
Which was like, hey Jack, hey, Iknow you.
(08:49):
So I think you get the chance not to.
That is ballsy. Second of all, because your
transformation is so different. So I can imagine, and you're
very talented at not playing both roles, but both personas
are very different, right? And so the idea that you would
be in public and have this thought that the chuckness is
(09:13):
revealed through Savannah's anything must have felt fucking
radical. It was not only surreal, but
radical for you. And also, it doesn't sound like
from what you're saying, that you're like tits were ripped out
from you. It sounds like you were totally
not grounded, right? But you weren't exactly scared
(09:36):
in that moment. You were just confused.
Is that accurate? Confused.
I was confused. I was uncertain about how Jack
was taking it and I didn't know what to do about not knowing
where his head was at on the topic of me.
And then when this girl swoops in to save me, quote UN quote,
and I'm like, now I am completely confused about what
(09:58):
her role was before she's. I don't like that.
I wanted him to go away. That's why I sat down.
I'm like, oh OK, I got where shewas coming from.
But for another hour, I'd still didn't know how Jack was feeling
about it because he didn't come back to me right away.
So I'm like, all right, so how is this going to go down?
Is he not going to ever talk to Chuck again on the weekdays
(10:20):
because he met Savannah and knows Savannah is Chuck?
So first of all, there's got to be a conversation to be had.
Chuck to Jack, Jack to Chuck to really just confirm, because I
have a feeling that it was as surreal for him as it was for
you. OK, That's right.
Yeah, but his surreal moment is just baffling, right?
(10:44):
But for you, because you have gained this comfort zone in your
little creature of habit routines, and you know what to
expect, you've safeguarded the experiences as part of your
creation and as part of your consistency.
And you count on consistency, right?
You count on, if I'm going to get dressed and go out of
(11:06):
Savannah, I'm going to my safe house and I'm going to do the
thing that I do. And there's nothing unexpected
because nothing unexpected happens with Savannah because
she knows who she is. She wrote the book.
I'm doing the internal work. And then something like this
happens that reminds you, oh, wait, I'm trans.
I'm trans in that way that a girl was triggered by what felt
(11:28):
to you just like a weird moment,so much so that they sat and
played this role to which you were just baffled.
But as soon as you got the memo on why, you were like, oh, that
makes sense. I see where her heart's coming
from. Yeah, yes, exactly.
Again, exposing another layer toyour transness that you have not
(11:48):
needed to be vulnerable with it for.
I don't remember how long, you know what I mean?
I don't know, maybe yesterday. I have no clue.
Like even when you brought this topic to me yesterday, my only
response was I have so many questions and that's it.
And that's it. That's all that was said for our
dear listeners. This is active.
You know, like my ability to hear you rather than just read
(12:13):
the topic is totally different. And I find the whole experience
for you if I was to be inside what I know about you.
Humbling, weird, perplexing, andjust a reminder that we're in
new terrain right now. We're in a time where what makes
an ally an ally or what makes a supporter of the trans community
(12:36):
Quote, but I don't know what to do.
Quote means standing in front ofthe fire and saying I will
protect you. I don't know you her projection
could have been what she heard and you could have heard
something totally different. But in that moment she felt in
her body enough Mama cubness to sit down from a complete
stranger who she perceived was being publicly humiliated.
(13:00):
I I feel in the projection of the assumption of what she felt
you were experiencing or she wasexperiencing through you not
knowing any context that you know this person gets an odd
scenario. Why would she?
Who cares? This is so juicy.
It's so much, right? And you are so on point with the
(13:25):
what she heard that required intervention to protect me was
not actually happening. I was a little perplexed by Jack
because I was like hey man, you looks like you got a look on
your face I don't know what to do with.
And he'd hadn't had time to answer yet before she swooped
in. So there was like a 5 second
window where Jack could have answered for me.
(13:46):
I was trying to keep it light even though I was probably a
little concerned because I didn't know which way it was
going to go. That's on me.
I was like, I hope he doesn't reject me or have some off
putting to say so I can understand the vibe might have
been given that off where she was connecting with that
vibration to like step in and dosomething to reroute this
(14:06):
conversation and protect me in that way, which that's never
happened to me before. Nobody's ever swooped in aside
from Judy being head on a swivelwhen she and I, or even she, you
and me, went out. She'll play sniper like she's
got her head, like ready to attack anybody who may do
something. So in that way, yes, from a
(14:27):
personal level, from a partnership level, I've had that
happen. But from a complete stranger,
Yeah, in that way I was like, what the hell?
This has never happened to me before.
This is so huge for you and it'sso juicy and it's why I love
this podcast because you're still experiencing life with
(14:48):
this, just like I'm still experiencing life in my role as
an ally, as part of the community, and it's active and
it's always changing. This experience that happened to
you will obviously make you a better advocate, will make you
think about yourself differently.
It could be healing and all this, but what I wanted to say
is that both you and this randomAngel that came into your past
(15:11):
to save the day, or so she thought, and your bravery to
just all right, I'm going to do this.
I'm just going to say, hey, I'm going to go there.
Even though I'm trepidatious, I'm going to go there with this
person. Both of you were coming from a
place of safety as the motivatorin different ways.
So let me explain. You felt safe enough at this
(15:34):
Starbucks, given the fact that you have an army of baristas,
given the fact that you go thereevery day, given the fact that
you know, if stuff went down that there would be a line and
army of protectors. It was safe enough for you to
risk this moment and go there because you have manifested this
safe space for you in Starbucks to be able to face this thing.
(15:56):
OK, Then you have the random pedestrian that didn't like how
she was perceiving what was happening.
She came from a place of safety for you.
She wanted to keep you safe. She was desperate too, so much
so that she'd flew right in there like I would, like I
would, and sat down and had a dialogue and extrapolated her
(16:18):
feelings about what you were experiencing based on no
information, based on the fact that it wasn't actually
happening from your side. But she wanted to keep you safe.
That was her point. That was her intention.
So that's basically the first step in any sort of manifesto,
any sort of change, any sort of growth, trying something new,
(16:39):
like you can move into somethingwith discomfort.
You have to. You can't like change unless
you're uncomfortable. But the foundation of safety, of
feeling safe, needs to come first.
It needs to come first. You had to develop this history
and this family with the Starbucks in order for you to
get courage to be able to just have this moment.
(17:00):
That, of course, is so surreal. It has never happened to you
before. It is so weird and it is so
something that if we were talking about this, if this had
happened three years ago and we were on the podcast talking
about this, it would be bizarre.It may still have been the first
time this kind of thing happened, but you would have
been younger and so it would have caused your heart to beat a
(17:23):
little faster. It would have, I think based on
all your growth, it would have not been as profound as talking
about it today. I feel at least me being able to
analyze the shit out of it. It just feels so like, wow,
you're a trans woman in in this world.
And just because you're very confident in that space and it
hasn't been a problem for you for many years and this moment
(17:46):
wasn't a problem. It wasn't.
It was just another way to look at your transness, in my
opinion, and just be like, huh, You know what I mean?
Yeah. Yeah.
And that's my projection of how you're in metabolizing this
based on knowing that I'm not you, you're not me.
And we approach things very different.
I'm imagining how I would feel just like this patron did.
(18:08):
I mean. Shit, yeah.
And you talked about safety, andI was thinking there was a lot
of vulnerability, too. Yes, From my point of view, yes,
I felt safe enough to be vulnerable, to lean into the
conversation with Jack and see where it was going to go.
I also have a lot of rejection sensitivity.
And I would have felt terrible. And this was going through the
(18:29):
back of my mind as I'm having this conversation of, oh, what
now? Now he's going to see Chuck
tomorrow or he's going to see Chuck Tuesday, Wednesday, every
day he's here. When I'm here.
Do I now have to avoid him if he's got a problem with me?
All those rejection distortions,those like cognitive distortions
of what I thought might happen, and not because it's not true or
(18:50):
that it may happen, but oh, man,I don't want this to be like a
thing. Now there when I come in,
there's this weird awkwardness between US and then this woman
feeling safe enough and brave enough to be vulnerable, to
insert herself in that situation.
For your safety, not yours. For you to keep you safe.
Well, but still, she's got to feel a certain way to even
(19:11):
interject herself. It takes a certain person to not
just stand by. And so there's something around
that, that she's got to feel a certain way to say I'm doing
this. So she's got to feel safe enough
to do it or feel brave enough todo it.
And that is vulnerable regardless of her perception.
It takes a lot of vulnerability to step in on somebody else's
behalf. And that's why I said we're in a
(19:33):
different landscape right now. We're in a different time in our
lives where people who are advocates are going to be
popping out from anywhere. The people that normally
wouldn't do what she did, maybe she wouldn't have done that six
months ago. Maybe not.
Maybe not three months ago, we don't know.
It was about your safety becauseyou're the vulnerable person,
(19:54):
more vulnerable than she will ever be.
And that's how she was able to get that courage.
It didn't take anything to me ifshe acted without even thinking
it. It just was natural.
It was within her heart. Maybe.
But it still takes us a certain vulnerability to step in.
Not everybody has that. Everybody's, oh, I see somebody
in trouble, Let me jump in to dothat thing.
(20:14):
Whether it's because she's got that under her belt several
times or she's a staunch ally and she's protected many other
people in a very similar vein, I'll never know her full story.
I wish she would have stuck around.
She swooped in with those Angel wings, and once I understood
what was happening, she flitted back away.
I'm like, OK, that happened. PS To the story, by the way,
(20:37):
Jack did finally come back around as if nothing had
happened, as if I was sitting there as Chuck because Jack
comes to me and says, you know, I got to go find tires today.
And. He's like as Savannah, you
sitting there. This wasn't another time.
This was the same. Episode scenario, Yeah.
So same time, but Jack hadn't come around in 1/2 hour.
(21:00):
And as Jack was, I guess, getting ready to leave, he swung
back around. I'm like, oh, Are you sure
they're open? I don't think they're open today
because this is Sunday. Oh, by the way, for any of the
listeners, this is all happeningin the Upstate, in South
Carolina, in the South. So just keep that in perspective
as well. And they were just talking and
chatting about buying tires and we said maybe go to Costco.
(21:22):
Maybe it was just. It's almost like the thing that
happened 30 minutes prior hadn'thappened.
As if. He felt.
As Chuck, so I asked him, I said, so how do you feel about
this? Because I was feeling still
uncertain. This is like when you have a
fight with somebody and then thefight's over and that person
acts like it never happened. And you're like.
But wait, I still have some issues about the fun.
(21:45):
Feelings I got. Feelings we had to work through
it. So I said, hey, so how are you
feeling? Well, it's fine.
She can do you like whatever. And then he tells me a story
about having gone to Catholic school and Catholic college.
He got expelled from said college for pushing a priest.
And then he just like, all right, well, I got to go bye.
(22:05):
Just wait. So you mean to tell me that you
were just two people talking? Yeah, Oh, mind blown.
I know who guys I know who knew.No, that's wild.
Yet it just shows such a monumental shift in.
I'm able to see this from a Magna level right now.
That is so profound as well as Oh my God like this is just the
(22:28):
best topic ever. Yeah, it was crazy.
I love it. It's got some intrigue.
It's got some action, it's got some tender moments and
normalcy. And you know what, at the end of
the day, what is it telling us? The what I took from this as
what I wanted to throw into thistopic was it was my perception
that was problematic. Jack came in, Jack said hi, I
(22:50):
said hi back. He looked at me through his
tinted sunglasses. And I didn't know what to do
about that because my own insecurities and had that woman
not swooped in to save me because of her perception of
events, which I applaud in love.And I was so grateful to her for
wanting to do that for me and making me feel safe.
(23:11):
Love that. And then Jack, had she not
swooped in, Jack would have eventually answered me and and
we would have just gone through this whole conversation without
the 30 minutes in between. And without the topic, but the
Fox and the Fans podcast. Yeah, I said Jack, go away.
I need a topic. No, everything just fell into it
(23:31):
and it just feels like you deserve to have moments like
this, as do I sometimes when we get too comfortable in how
things are and we depend on these certain parts of our lives
to be as such. Sometimes we need a good
scramble of it. Sometimes we need a little bit
of, you know, shifting perspective, if you will.
This episode's all about perspective.
(23:52):
Perspective. Brought to you by the letter P
for perspective. And I also want to touch back on
what you said a little while agothat you were talking about
earlier. In order to change and evolve,
you need to have some discomfortbecause that's where you grow.
And for me, I felt that that day.
I felt like you said I was in mysafe place, a very routine, and
(24:16):
everything happens just as I expect it's going to.
Until that day where two things happened.
I didn't think I was going to see Jack on a weekend and this
woman swoops in to protect me. All things that were completely
out of the normal for me didn't control it.
I had no control of that situation.
It did have a level of discomfort in different ways for
each of those individuals from my perspective.
(24:37):
And yet I grew from it. And I think that's what I want
our listeners to take away from this.
Aside from all the massive amount of wisdom that you're
providing is that you can't control every situation.
But if you're going to be out inthe world, things are going to
happen. They're all not going to be
amazing. They're not all going to be
rainbows and butter cups, but inthis case, something that I was
(24:58):
having a little bit of anxiety about in that moment ended up
not being a moment that deservedanxiety.
It caused me anxiety because of my own perspective, my own
perception of self in my triggers and my anxiety and
rejection sensitivity, all the things I'm carrying around with
me. Jack probably wasn't feeling
that way. You just was saying hi to me.
This woman, had she not heard mywords, probably wouldn't have
(25:22):
felt the necessity to step in. And so what's the lesson for you
in this? The lesson for me is I have a
lot of work to do for myself, asI'm doing now in therapy.
Again, I've talked about rejection sensitivity and just
the fact that I've lived in a world for 1550 some years that
I've built a narrative in my mind of rejection by the masses,
(25:46):
by social acceptance, etcetera, etcetera.
In a lot of ways that is very true.
But when it comes to the microcosm of individual to
individual, I find time and timeagain that is not true.
I came down to South Carolina terrified that the masses were
going to burn me at the stake. And every time I go out, all I
(26:09):
do is see more and more experiences where that is the
exact opposite of what's the truth.
Because when you start talking to people, individuals, and have
a human connection and not just,oh, that guy looked at me funny.
Once you stop building in your own misconception of what's
actually happening, you start finding out that the world is
(26:30):
different than we make it out tobe sometimes.
I like that, Yeah, it's deep. Yes, it is deep.
It is something that I try really hard to work through.
And I find it. Constantly.
Those hooks are in me tight of just constantly.
(26:51):
If something happens, it instantly reverts me back to oh,
that's what's happening. That's how they're feeling.
I'm constantly projecting my owntraumas unto others and I
quickly recognize it as it's happening or after the fact when
you like you feel the feels and then you start having to
intellectualize those feelings. Like you have your emotional
brain and the logical brain and then the wise mind in between.
(27:15):
I'm feeling the feels, I'm recognizing them.
I'm intellectualizing them, themsaying, OK, what's true.
And to me, I've been very blessed to have put myself in a
situation as I've come down South to realize, yeah, that's a
lot of it's me, I'm the problem.It's me, but look what came.
Look what you did with your problem.
(27:36):
Yeah, look at all the lives thatyou have supported and been able
to see because of your problems,because of your pain, because of
your ability to do something with angst.
And in my belief system, in order to get to the wise self,
(27:57):
we need pain and suffering and we need light and love and
awareness in order to get to that higher power.
You can't have one without the other.
You can't try to shame yourself from learning the lessons.
Because there's something I hearwhen you're talking, and that is
something that I hear when I'm saying when I'm talking and my
(28:20):
therapist is listening or whatever.
And that's if I just could suffer less, if I could just be
better, if I could just not be so mean to myself, I would be.
Whatever fantasy version of myself of perfection that
doesn't exist. It doesn't exist because you'll
always have the parents that raised you.
(28:41):
You'll always have different storylines from your past that
creep up beyond logic and reasonthat will permeate through your
present existence and make it soyou keep on going.
I have not known where my passion is for Fox and Hanger
because I've been so depleted. And then what happened?
(29:03):
Trump won. Trump won something that
happened different from what I wanted to happen.
And yet it sparked a fire in me to burn with such anger that I'm
going to use that anger to help a whole lot of people.
And I am. And I found my passion again and
I figured out my purpose again. And so there's no shame in
(29:25):
seeing this experience you had as so tremendously healing and
not replaying it as if it wasn'tfor my projection, I would be
better. And I should have known that.
And I it was me and I'm wrong and I'm bad because that's not
where the learning comes from. That just puts you in a shame
spiral. And this is really a huge,
(29:46):
valuable episode that I'm extremely proud of based on you
and how everything went down, how all the different elements
came together to create this beautiful experience that was
very different from keep on swimming, keep on swimming, keep
on swimming. Something had to shift things so
that you could grow. So I just want to say that at
(30:08):
the end of this episode, yeah. Absolutely.
And just one point on the shame part.
I didn't feel shame per SE because I know that you know
what? This is not the other person's
thing. It's me projecting my own things
on that person. Jack was just walked in and
doing this thing saying hi and Iprojected some anxiety out.
(30:29):
I know. Yeah, so, but I totally get it,
the idea that we blame ourselvesfor the thing wherever The thing
is, and then and use it to go downward as opposed to go
upward. I'm definitely trying very hard
with, like with all these, I don't know, these individualized
things that just happen as growth bull seeds for growth.
(30:50):
And I love that. And I've been chomping at the
bit because I'm like, Oh my God,it's been so long.
This happened weeks ago and I didn't get a chance to tell you
about it because you were neck deep in your own planning for
the bat mitzvah, and I just didn't get a chance to unpack it
with you. So I'm so glad we do it now.
And I've been very, very busy atwork with the toxin hanger
stuff. So I just, I really think that
(31:13):
there's something holy. As much as I miss our constant
contact of yesteryear and there's something to be said
when we're able to come here andfreshly share these bits and
bobs in a very, I view it as a holy space with everyone
listening. I think it's the most authentic,
juicy part of this podcast is when we can do that.
(31:35):
Agreed, I like all packing. Yeah, so this was beautiful and
wonderful and I'd, I hope our listeners enjoyed it as much as
I enjoyed being part of the discussion with you.
Yeah, I feel like this is one ofthose episodes that I feel
changed by and I I appreciate you so much and love you and bye
(31:57):
for now. Until next time.
You can find me on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with
Cross Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK and to learn more, go to my website
(32:18):
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hanger or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhanger.com.
Julie, it's your moment. Fox in the Phoenix podcast uses
anchor. Copyright 2024.
(32:40):
Yes, nailed it. If you enjoy our content and
want to make it easier for others to find us, please share
with your friends, tap the Subscribe or Follow button to
the show wherever you're listening, give it a five star
rating or leave a review. And for show ideas or comments,
(33:01):
contact us through the podcast on Facebook at Fox and Phoenix
Podcast or on Instagram at the Fox and the Phoenix Podcast
under Score.
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