March 5, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode, Julie talks to Savannah about the more sensory components of dressing enfemme. From the feel of silk, satin, leather, and lace, to teh compression of bodycon dresses and shapewear, to the scent of makeup and perfume, to the taste of lipgloss, and to the sound of dangling jewelry, the swish of stockings, and the click of heels, the experience of feminine dressing is a full sensory experience that wraps up all the senses beyond just the look of the final feminine presenation.
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Hello Julie.
I always love it when you're wearing your furriness.
It's. Very animalistic.
(00:50):
And my hair is a deep Crimson. Yeah, you know where I found out
about your hair being a deep Crimson?
I'm Facebook. I had to see a post of you with
your hair all deep. You didn't tell me.
Nobody told me. I.
Know. Sorry, excuse me, it's been a
busy week. All right, I'm just it's.
Been the first week where I am just Julie Rubenstein and Kate
(01:14):
White, a fox and egger, and I'm like taking my position and just
doing this and not doing the other thing that brought me much
exhaustion, disease and, you know, a lack of purpose.
Oh, was that the talking to me part?
You're talking. About no, that was teaching
preschool during a large chunk of my time so that I couldn't
(01:34):
feel in complete alignment. Let me tell you, the layoff was
the best thing that ever happened to me because this week
I felt more like myself than ever.
Like I'm just like living my truth.
I'm getting organized, I'm restructuring.
And I've been really moved to tears about how all my biggest
(01:55):
fears about can't leave that preschool job because and then
fill in the blank. I'm lonely.
I need the conversation. I need lies.
Lies I tell you. Oh, I'm really bad at setting my
own structure. I'm not going to be able to do
that. Lies.
Because the moment I was let go,my schedule just formed itself.
(02:16):
I had more time to see clients during different times.
I had more time to book consultations, to speak about
what I do. And it's just been so exciting.
And I'm just so freaking. I'm just so thankful to have
this opportunity. That's what I see it as.
It's an opportunity for me to rebirth this whole vision I have
(02:38):
and at the same time keep thingsjust as they are with a little
bit more sparkle and a little bit more energy.
So I feel really good. It's interesting.
I had one of our listeners who thinks to us felt inspired to
start their own podcast and gaveme a little shout out and they
asked me. They said, oh, I'm just waiting
for the Fox and Hanger ad, one of your episodes to appear.
(03:03):
And I thought that was really interesting, funny to me because
you and I have talked about overthe years with you writing your
books and the business that I dothis kind of natural ability.
You and I are a walking ad in terms of like our experience
with whatever project we're working on or however it relates
to our work or relates to that page in in the book.
(03:24):
And though we don't have this standard like check out the Fox
and Hager and check out the living with Cross, just whatever
standardized ways that this can appear to feel like we're doing
something intentional. You and I are here all the time
talking about our the process ofwriting your book, why you wrote
the book. If I write a book, I am letting
(03:45):
everyone in on the process the different offering.
So in some ways, our beings and us showing up is a walking
advertisement for who we are andwhat we do.
And also we compromise. We said we'd never do ads from
outside of us having ads put into our show.
That was number one. And #2 we did an intro and an
(04:06):
outro that we tell people who weare and where to find us.
So we do every episode to have. And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud
ally and Co founder of Fax and hanger.com.
So it's there. Right.
That's the piece, people. It's so there that you're just
like, I feel like it's not there.
It could be there. I'm just waiting.
(04:27):
No, it's there. It's everywhere.
OK, so just go to the website, get the books.
We are your friends and we love you very dearly, but it is so in
your face. And it is up to you to go beyond
us with our work, to actually read the book, to actually go to
the website and get to know us on a more intimate, more magical
(04:48):
sense. So yeah, that's that.
It's been a good week. I'm glad to be here.
And I come at these episodes nowwith a new sense of gratitude
and ferociousness. And I don't know, call to arms,
if you will, Mr. Trump. Yes.
So lot happening that elevates us at this time, huh?
(05:09):
Yeah, and it's funny to say thatbecause I was sitting with Judy
before the show. If you're just hanging out and
just talking and I made a a joke, which is a semi joke and
we'll see what happens, say hey,everybody go get the books right
away now before they become criminalized in pornography.
I said, I hope people find my book because the LGBTQ section
(05:31):
of Amazon might be criminalized and made into pornography and
therefore we'll never be able tosell books again.
I said that in jest, but you know what?
The climate is such that it's God knows what's going to
happen. I'm just going to keep on
keeping on as we've said in previous episodes of just being
visible. Just keep doing my thing.
I don't know if I told you this,when Leanne came to see me last
(05:52):
week and she came down and we went to Starbucks, I had been at
the same Starbucks the day previous.
And one of the baristas who who gave me a lovely little note on
a receipt under my cup with a heart.
And so I told her. I said we're going to be back
tomorrow. And unfortunately she went home
early that next day because I saw her yesterday and I said,
(06:12):
what happened to you? I was so bummed that I didn't
get to show off Spana to you. So I showed her the picture and
she was like wow, eating that up.
And. I love that.
And so I've tried to go back today, but she was leaving work
so super early today. Like, there's no way I'm getting
out of bed in time to be ready to come in and show off in
person. Yeah, that is what I wanted to
(06:34):
say in my little preamble here is that being visible, sharing
ourselves with others in a earnest and meaningful way.
And not just be garish about it.Not just be like, I'm here,
accept me and we're are, but just be there.
Just be human. Just be part of the continuity
of life and you're going to find, I feel, or I've been lucky
(06:55):
enough to find a lot of love outthere.
And again, South Carolina, the Upstate, not necessarily a
hotbed of queer acceptance in a lot of ways, but I surround
myself with people who are open to conversation, open to
different ways of life, open to diversity, inclusion, and
equality. And that's where I choose to put
(07:15):
my efforts, and that's where I choose to be visible.
I can't control all the other people who walk in the door of
those coffee shops and what theymay think, but at least I know
I'm a very safe place that I feel very, very comfortable
being in. And they got my back, as you've
said many times in the past as well.
Yeah, I was there today writing my book, book three in the last
(07:38):
70 pages of pre editor rewrites and edits.
So I'm hoping to get that done by next weekend.
And then I'll just start book four, do the same damn thing.
And I don't know man, I think I might be done with the the
writing bug for at least a week before before.
I thought you were gonna say it at least the rest of my life.
(07:59):
No, no, of course not. Never, never, never.
Never. So yeah, you.
So before we get into our topic today, I did want to mention
that the dear listener that gavea shout out to me on their
podcast is Jennifer Hang Gartner.
And please, please excuse me if I just butchered your last name,
but we love you and the podcast is Jennifer's Tale.
(08:23):
My life is a crossdresser special.
She's gun it for us, man. She's already on episode 90 I
think and. Oh God, she's the best.
She's cracking it. And all I have to say is fatty
breast tissue. Okay, the woman got some some
breast tissue and that is my favorite episode on her podcast.
It is like the first episode. And we are so happy that we
(08:46):
could inspire you to do this work because we need all the
podcasts, all the books, all theeverything when it comes to
honoring our own unique story when it comes to our genderqueer
experience. And yeah, spread it.
Let everyone write a book. Spread the news.
Spread the news is what you mean.
(09:07):
Spread your legs, spread the news, spread your tits.
We love it. OK, so moving right along to our
lovely episode today. I selected this topic because it
is a topic I love and why wouldn't I pick a topic I love
to talk about? The topic today that I love that
we're going to get to talk aboutis how sensory integration
(09:31):
affects your cross dressing. How the senses, the eyes, the
ears, the nose, the touch. Am I missing any?
The taste of how all of these wonderful senses that we have
can heighten and do heighten your ability to express yourself
(09:51):
through femininity. I love it.
I love it. I love it in my work at Fox and
Hanger, especially with the coaching that I do.
There's a large focus on sensoryintegration, sensory play,
getting tuned in with your crossdressing self in terms of what
you were drawn to around touch, around how you feel in something
(10:14):
when you put on a feminine item.I often will bridge back to
childhood and think about some of those early memories when you
started cross dressing or when you started realizing that you
had a feminine side to you that likes to express themselves
through female clothes. And a lot of those early
memories are sneaking into theirsister's panty draw, touching
(10:38):
their mom's silk nightgown. Some of those early sensory cues
will set the scene for the adults that we are today in
terms of why we're drawn to certain things, whether it be
style, aesthetic or cuts of things or the weight of things.
For example, I'm thinking of a specific client I work with this
(10:59):
week spoke with me about the weight of clip on earrings.
That studs are one thing, but there's something to be said
about the fact that they don't look feminine, but they can put
on clip on earrings and feel that heaviness of the earlobe.
And that led to me speaking withthem about some other clients.
(11:19):
And this kind of idea that heaviness can be translated to
breast forms, the kind of weighton their breasts.
Now they may not stand up in breast forms and open their eyes
with their sense of sight and see, Oh my God, I'm suddenly
female. But they can close their eyes
and they can touch those breastsand they can lean over and pick
(11:39):
up their phone or pick up laundry.
And if they're wearing them, they feel that heaviness of
their breasts and that cues theminto a very real feminine
experience. They're embodying that feminine
experience in a way they may notbe able to, just visualizing
them more in breast forms. I think for people that aren't
(11:59):
able to dress as much as they like, they may not have passing
privilege or so they're told. I think getting past the image
stuff and weight stuff, size stuff in terms of I wish I was a
size 6 or even a 10, but really I'm a 20, whatever and I can't
look like a woman because of my idea.
(12:21):
Looking like a woman means beingthis size or whatever it is.
Call on your senses, call on your other senses to help guide
this experience because that is something that you can get into
instantly. Verse the hour to it might take
you to get dressed right the theanticipation on the calendar,
(12:43):
the looking at your phone for where your significant other is
located or when's your kids willbe home.
That's very stressful. It takes time.
It takes a lot of energy to get to that point where take a
moment to pull open your underwear drawer and just feel
with your eyes closed all these panties or go into the bathroom
and breathe in this really delicious scented lotion that
(13:06):
can just bring you there instantly.
So that's what I want to talk about today.
I know I've set the scene in terms of couple of different
examples and I know our listeners may be able to relate
to what I'm talking about, but Ilove your take on it in terms of
this sensory experience and how it plays into the cross dressing
experience as a whole. Oh, you said it all.
(13:28):
I think we're good now. You had some really good
examples. The one that spoke to me, and
I've actually had a conversationwith a couple different people
about it, is the breast forms, whether it's the the breastplate
or the insert forms, I would getthe question of, but you can't
feel it. Yes, of course I can't feel the
(13:49):
tactile nature of the form if somebody's touching it.
But you feel the pressure, like you said, you feel the pressure
of the in the weight of it hanging on your chest.
You feel the pressure if you arepushing it in because it is
putting pressure against your skin in that way.
So yes, while you may not be able to get the infinitesimal
(14:10):
sensory experience of it as if it were skin, you do feel a lot
of components that make it feel more realistic.
And that was why I had tried outthe breastplate because I wanted
something that would one, have avery rounded look and have that
hanging that would hang not justfrom the bra and have the bra
(14:31):
straps digging into me as it's dragging it down and also not
sit perfectly. You get sweaty and they move
around and you're readjusting. There's something about having a
breastplate. It is there it.
Is. On you, there's no, you don't
even have to wear a bra because it's all in place.
So some people do the medical adhesive, some people do the
(14:51):
breastplates that are more like the crop tops or the halter tops
that the Velcro behind the neck and as well as the When I was a
kid and going into my mom's bedroom, my sister's bedroom and
feeling the clothes either hanging in the closet or in
their intimate drawers, not understanding the reason why it
was so alluring. It's not like I saw my mom
(15:14):
wearing a slip under her clothesto understand what that slip was
supposed to do. Right.
Right there was very seldom my mom got dressed up, yet those
article clothings were in her drawer for those special events.
And when I'm a young kid, it waslike my mom and dad were going
off to parties every three weeks.
They were all dolled up. So I didn't have an
(15:35):
understanding of what it was supposed to be in the feminine
world. I just knew that the tactile
nature of it, the silkiness, thesmoothness, the slipperiness of
these undergarments was very much something I was drawn to.
Judy and I spoke about this little bit today.
You had sent me the topic, and it said CD Sensory joy.
(15:56):
I said, wow, that's a strange way to put it.
It's like I never heard it said that way.
Sensory joy. So I looked it up and it was
actually a line of things that'sall about ADHD and stimming and
things you use a comfort yourself.
And I catapulted from that notion of well said.
Why don't necessarily feel? I have a large nugget on the
(16:17):
spectrum of ADHD so I don't see that for myself yet.
I also understand the calming effect of feeling something soft
on my skin and in my hands on myskin.
I've talked about before the compression of the undergarments
while other people are like I can't believe you want to wear
those all day. You haven't all cut into you.
(16:38):
But how many people have weighted blankets for sleeping?
We came from our infancy swaddled in tight blankets to
comfort us and bring us closer to the bosom of our mother.
There's so many things that are inherently part of our makeup
that we've draw comfort from, and this is no different.
(16:59):
Yes, we say, well, it's cross dressing.
It's all that's a whole thing. But yet it's not because the
things that we're doing for manyof us are all drawing from this
very human need that we've always come up with.
And this is not only for Crossroads and it could be, it's
for everybody way, the weighted blanket who likes to put a
heated blanket on because they love the warmth.
(17:21):
We cuddle up with those little bedroom buddies, little stuffed
animals that we can hug and feelcloseness to that.
I'll tell you right now in my bedroom, there is a way to
blanket. There are little, little
critters that we can hug overnight.
There's so many things that we do that has nothing to do across
our city in my house that has everything to do with comfort,
(17:42):
calmness, just feeling protectedand safe in your own body and in
your own environment. And I really see a lot of the
things that cross dressing folk do in general, diverse folk do.
It's not necessarily about the type of clothing sometimes, but
we all know that more feminine clothing has more of these
(18:03):
characteristics. So like you put that into the,
like you said, the touch, the feel.
If you put a perfume on, now youhave the smell.
Sometimes just even the scent ofthe clothing itself is something
to put you into a frame of mind.And the only thing I couldn't
figure out is how you put taste into this.
(18:25):
I mean, hearing a taste with twoof us, like, well, I'm not
really sure, but that Judy, I'm sorry, but that Judy said to me.
But that Judy said to me, well, some people like the music and
they got swayed to the music, and that is sensory of itself
too. I'm like, Oh well, there you go.
Well, I mean, just to answer that question right off the bat,
when it comes to sound, there's the clicking of the heels.
(18:46):
And maybe you don't directly acknowledge it because you're so
focused on the heaviness of yourbreasts, but there's something
to be said when little children,when I watch little children at
my former job, biological boys, wear these clickety heels and
have them click on the linoleum floor.
There's something to be said when I'm able to recall my
(19:09):
favorite teachers. My favorite teachers were the
ones that had a soundtrack to their shoes, so I always hear
them down the hall. And that translated to my adult
self where literally every shoe I own has a particular sound and
it's not the same. Every sound has a different
thing. And it's so weird to me.
(19:29):
Like a bikers ring, you know what I mean?
Like I have these particular combat boots that when I walk in
them, they sound like they have a bell to them.
And then there's a sloshing 1 and then there's my favorite
little booties. I love them so much that that
one of the block heels are like hollow and I won't throw them
out. So when I walk, it's like a
(19:49):
pirate sound. Where's that one click?
It's a little bit different because it's hollowed out now to
some people would drive them crazy and they hate it and
they'd get rid of the shoes. But for me, it's extremely
soothing. But yeah, you just spoke about a
lot of. Different aspects of this
sensory stuff and it's all very important and it's all something
(20:10):
that I want to acknowledge today.
The idea that we enhance gender euphoria through touch, whether
it be through all the variety ofdifferent silky, satiny fabrics,
just touching them makes it morealluring and makes it more
interesting a fabric than let's say your boy wardrobe might,
right? There's a delight to touch and
(20:31):
move your hands through all of these different garments that
has this euphoric nature to it. When you put on a pair of
stockings that encasement. Often my work involves slowing
down the getting dressed processin a way that's very
intentional, almost like in a way if you were going to get a
body massage or you were to scanyour body if you're having
(20:55):
trouble sleeping, where we startfrom one part of your body and
we slow it down throughout otherparts of your body.
One of the things is like putting on pantyhose, noticing
through your senses how it feelson your toes, really noticing
how your toes feel and look withhaving the Sheerness of the
pantyhose that is very alluring,very erotic and very, very
(21:18):
comforting. Building confidence through a
variety of different textures and that comfort feeling.
Like you spoke about the weighted blanket, or you spoke
about that comment about the weighted blanket and feeling
very calm in the clothes that you wear with the weight.
That so reminded me of the crossdresser that moves beyond
this feverish, kinky sensory play and gets dressed.
(21:42):
And as soon as they're dressed, or as soon as they put that
skirt on, or as soon as they button up that blouse, there's
not this overwhelming sense of erotic explosion or climax.
Literally, sometimes there's this feeling of calm.
There's this calmness of feelinglike they are held, a feeling
(22:03):
like they are at home in their body, and it's something that
can be connected to a memory of their mother and how they look
when they go off to work at thisplace or the other place.
And that they be held or hugged or whatever memory is cueing
your body that this equals a sense of calm.
So be it. But often it leaves a lot of
(22:25):
crossdressers really confused. Like why do I feel really calm
dressed as the opposite sex? Sometimes that involves a lot of
anxiety that could follow if youdon't fully understand why it
is. And then there's this rabbit
hole of the emotions that you'retaking stock up and you're
thinking you're really fucked up.
And then you go into the shame, you unpack the shame box, right?
(22:47):
And you're just like, well, thisisn't OK, this is damning or
this is shameful or but why do Ifeel so calm?
I'm not calm. I'm freaking out, you know what
I mean? And it's just, it's more basic
than that. Any thoughts that you can add
into that narrative that makes you feel suddenly go from calm?
Because often when we feel calm,on the other side of calm is a
(23:08):
sense of panic. And there's a sense very closely
of I shouldn't be calm, I'm too calm.
And Oh my God, why am I too calm?
I'm fully dressed. What time is it?
I got to get out of here. I'm fucked up.
I'm transgender. Hello.
Mayday, Mayday, Mayday. There's a lot to it and it's
fascinating. I think we talked about movies a
long time ago in an early episode and I want to reiterate
(23:29):
one of those movies, which was Johnny Depp and Ed Wood.
Ed Wood was the one who did GlenGlenda in the 50s.
He was a super independent filmmaker and he was just making
the most bizarre things at the time even.
I mean, it's just crazy what he was putting out or trying to put
out. And so Glen Glenda came out and
(23:51):
it was all about the semi autobiographical telling of why
he dressed in femme. And one of the scenes that I
recall was he had this angora sweater and he was overcome with
a panic attack. But once he he put on the agora
sweater and the outfit and the wig, all of a sudden he was able
to command being a director and directing his actors and
(24:14):
actresses to do this thing. I think the original Glenn
Glenda is crazy. If you can find, I think it's on
you probably. Can find it together.
Yeah, we, I think we did. I mean that for the movie watch
part, I think so a lot of moviesthat that was.
That was the original 1 and thatthe Johnny Depp I think Tim
Burton movie was based on, but it was more based on him as a
(24:37):
figure in Hollywood versus the actual product.
Yeah, we saw the original and itwas really at a time trying to
demystify what cross dressing was.
But it was just some of the language and some of the
understanding of it of the original 1950 in the 50s one was
like, oh man, wow, that's so outdated.
(24:58):
Yet the idea of him finding confidence within himself by the
simple act of putting on this armor of clothing to give him
that confidence in the softness of the angora sweater, in the
tactical nature and all the things that went into it,
allowed him to be able to do what he intended to do as a
(25:18):
filmmaker. So I tell you, Ed Wood, watch
that with Johnny Depp. Glenn, I think it's is it Glenn
Glenda or Glenn verse Glenda? I can't remember the title.
Glenn Glenda sounds familiar. Yeah, you find that on YouTube I
think just crazy in terms of thinking about what was being
put out. But I think it it speaks to this
topic in a very slanted way where you can see somebody going
(25:40):
through it externally and say, Oh yeah, I can see what's going
on there. That was one thing I thought of
when you were speaking about thecalmness that you get.
And it's even in my book, the first book, 1st and 2nd book,
talk about escapism, the escape artist that Dons the clothing to
get away from the real life and how there's a comfort by
(26:01):
becoming this other person that has no worries.
But then there's also the personwho loves the calmness, the
sensory aspect of it. They have this hectic quote UN
quote real life, but then they can push that to the side and
allow themselves to feel something different by the
clothing, by the material, by the presentation.
(26:23):
And those things are very much for everybody.
We keep talking about it under across dressing lens or a dual
gender lens. But think about any person in
your life who men once they get home, the bra comes off, the
sweatpants go on and get into your tracksuit or your
sweatpants and hoodie. I mean, those are things we do
(26:43):
because we find comfort and it'sjust, ah, I see, ah moment.
Yeah, no, something I definitelystarted last week, which I'm
going to acknowledge is my firstweek of just doing this quote.
Quote is I made a rule for myself that I will get dressed
to the nines as a stylist from not 9:00 to 5:00, but at least
(27:08):
from the hours of let's say 8:00AM to 4:00.
I would dress and potentially I will dress in a way that makes
me feel I'm living my dream job.I'm that fashionista stylist.
And then when the quote work dayis over, I will then change into
something like sweatpants, yoga pants, like whatever it is that
(27:29):
represents that, that calming. And for some of you listeners
and major is maybe the total opposite of what I just said,
which is to calm yourself down. It may be that intentional femme
outfit. There's something to be said
psychologically and that's why I've always been turned on by
style and fashion is that side aspect and the feeling aspect of
(27:51):
what clothes communicate for youwithout saying a word, right?
You don't need to say a word. You just put it on and suddenly
you have become whatever it is, this particular clothing item,
this bodycon dress, this yoga pants and athletic top is for
you. Now it was very, very, very
(28:12):
tempting at the start to go frommy bar method class, then sit on
the couch and do the work like Ialways did on my phone wearing
just my yoga outfit. And I said, Oh, no, no, no, no,
sweetie, this is fox and hanger 2 point O.
This is getting ready intentionally.
Not only are you going to look the part and put on the clothes,
(28:34):
but you're going to sit at the desk.
So you will no longer be doing work on your phone, on the
couch, in whatever you can do asyou can, pushing it to the side.
This is what intentional means. And I think that setting those
intentions, whether before the amount of time you dress or for
your sensory exploration, it's really important because it's
(28:56):
your time. So it's your time to do whatever
you need to do to get something out of the experience, whether
it be calm, whether it be focused, whether it be a
heightened sense of self, a release of a king, whatever it
is we're accepting. And we're talking about all of
it in terms of sensory play. But sensory integration, when it
(29:18):
comes to your feminine self and showing up in the world or
showing up for yourself, it's all very similar and very
important. And just like the building of
confidence through the differentadditions you add yourself in
terms of the sensory exploration.
So for example, if putting a wigon with long hair and seeing
(29:39):
that long hair, looking down at your, not looking in the mirror,
but looking down at your shoulders and seeing this like
long hair and having that represent you as a feminine
being, it's huge. That's confidence, the heaviness
of it, the practice of brushing your hair maybe while it's on
your head. That idea when you close your
(30:00):
eyes and you brush your long hair, that that's a moment in
time where you can then in your own mind's eye, create this
beautiful feminine image about what you look like.
Whether it's so far removed fromwhat would happen if you
actually stood up and looked in the mirror, that's totally
irrelevant. What you're doing is you're
putting yourself in the body of,so you're using this brush to
(30:21):
stroke your long hair and you'refeeling the weight of the hair
and you're running your fingers through it.
That's all a huge sensory aspectof this and kind of like a
porthole to that feminine side of you that is very, very
affirming. It's so healthy for you and it
lacks that negative speech that comes from when you were to
(30:41):
visually see yourself. Let's say you you took yourself
out of that and you got on a zoom call and you're just
staring at yourself and you're like that's not it.
Or you walk open to the mirror and you're like fuck this.
And you just see your man face and you're suddenly ripped from
that moment of pure, pure sensory joy.
I absolutely agree with that because I had that when I was on
(31:04):
that podcast appearance we spokeabout last week where I was
looking at myself, the Savannah self on the call and her
lighting was just Primo. Everything was soft and perfect
and even and mine's like harsh. And I'm looking at myself going,
oh God, I hate the way Savannah's face looks.
It's too stark, it's too contrasty.
I feel like all the wrinkles areshowing.
(31:25):
And you're right. It's one thing to, while sight
is a very sensory part of the experience, especially for a lot
of us who like to see the finished product and like to see
the ensemble and see how it all fits in, flares and settles.
But there is some that it can bevery distracting or it can very
(31:47):
much take you out of the experience if you're not
confident in the presentation itself.
So yes, being able to close youreyes and whether it's feeling
the manufacturer curves of your body or touching your hair or
just sensing the compression on your body of the pantyhose, of
the shapewear, feeling the hair,feeling the fingernails.
(32:07):
I used to be really big. One of the things I love to look
at early on was the press on nails.
So while I didn't have to look at my face or my body, I could
just look at my nails and how I extended my fingertips and made
them a little more feminine and elongated.
And that was a big thing for me.And I spent a lot of time after
the makeup trying to put them all on and make sure they don't
(32:29):
fly off at the wrong times or come home missing three of them.
And after a while, I realized that wasn't something I needed
as much as I got more confident in the embodiment of my
femininity in general. So I didn't have to worry about
a focus point that I I always went to.
So it became more the entirety of the experience of who I was
presenting versus just, well, everything else looks that crap,
(32:51):
but hey, look at these nails. Right, right, right.
So it is an evolution as well, even in the sensory joy of
things. And you find that some things
work for quite some time and then realize, well, I'm, I'm
becoming more confident in different ways.
I like these breast forms I finally got that fit me
perfectly or more perfectly, or I have a better sense of hip
pads or I'm wearing this other shapewear and everything starts
(33:14):
coming together. As you become more and more
experienced, that then leads to a redefining of the sensory
experience that does bring you joy.
Yeah, and we're all really big visual people, right?
We just are. And we are, especially with the
male brain. We are very much I don't have a
male brain, but like the biological.
(33:36):
I was going to call you on that,by the way.
I'm like, maybe our male brain. What's going on?
And I do that with the trans stuff as well.
So yes, an honorary member, but I don't have an honorary male
brain. So yes, basically.
But with the biological male brain, I noticed that there's a
lot of logic, there's a lot of reason, and there's a lot of
this idea of achievable goals, right?
(33:57):
And completion, especially when it comes to the male to female
transformation. So it's very attractive to maybe
say in X amount of weeks, I wantto be this not I want to be
cured, but I want to be the bestfeminine version of myself.
So how do we get there, right? And so for me, I can of course
(34:17):
come up and I will. And I am with the nine week
program to say, OK, this week we're going to focus on body
language and mannerisms that I can spell out the whole thing.
And it's very achievable. And there's steps and all that,
but it's femininity is deeper than that.
It just is. You can go through all of the
training and you can go through the course and you could feel
(34:37):
like at the very end, OK, I've become this woman of my dreams.
And there is that, right? But there's a deeper part of it.
There's a deeper part of the work that doesn't involve just
the looks, right? It involves the looks as well as
embodying the feminine. And what does that mean?
OK, well how do you move in thisdress so I can get you all the
(34:59):
tools and stuff like that, but how does your body feel when you
put on the dress and what are your hands doing?
And OK, well, that's a masculine, automatic thing.
Let's slow it down. Let's notice how female bodies
move and how male bodies move just naturally.
So I could do all the styling inthe world and I could feminize
(35:20):
someone to a tee, and suddenly they're meeting with me and
they're sitting like a linebacker.
I'm not passable. Well, it doesn't matter because
you're wearing all the clothes and I taught you how to do your
makeup and you're wearing the perfect wig.
If you're sitting with me and I can see your family jewels
during our work together in undies, it's dark in there.
(35:41):
But I'm simply saying if the dress is wearing you and you're
not wearing the dress in your whole body and you're not tuning
into things like am I able to put this leg over the other leg
with my weights and my body type?
Or is this unrealistic? OK, How else can I cross my
legs? OK, at the ankle, right?
That's all very important. And that involves a slower step.
(36:04):
And I'm going to put on these clothes.
But Julie's asking me how do I feel like when I put it on?
Well, I want to get to the lookspart, but it's not about that.
We're reformatting that masculine thinking brain with a
feminine lens, which is very, very, very different.
Oh, it's so funny. I said that.
(36:25):
It brought up a memory for me from last summer when I was at
the Atlanta Comfort Conference. I met up with Diane Lane, and so
I think the last day before I was heading home, we had
breakfast since I was just regular old Chuck.
There's a lot of stairs up and down in the Commons area where
there's a restaurant, there's a bar, there's all these different
(36:45):
levels that you can sit and havelittle alcoves.
And so I was just dressed as Chuck.
Everything was in the car. It was ready to go.
We were going to meet up to havebreakfast.
I went bounding up the stairs and she called me out.
She was like, wow, you sure do walk differently as Chuck than
you do as Savannah. Because I was just like, you
(37:07):
know, just very manly, just bounding up the stairs 2 at a
time, not dainty, not being concerned about walking prim and
properly as a lady. Because I was like, dude, I was
just Chuck. It didn't matter.
But the fact that I got called out on it, I thought was very
fun. That it is for me.
There's so much diversity between my movement to your
(37:28):
point about composure and compartment and how you posture
and how you cross your legs and how you walk in the heels and
how you move your body, all that.
I have almost very much, like you said, integrated in my brain
to be muscle memory and automatic.
But when I'm Chuck, it's just whatever male default blah blah
blah blah blah, right? So while I may hold a little
(37:51):
that feminine mannerism when I am Chuck, there is a a huge
difference between how I hold myself when I'm wearing clothes
of the feminine persuasion versus of Mal persuasion.
Yes, no, yeah, it's funny. It's it's very yeah, it's very
interesting. And how you over the years
perfected that feminine form, orwas it perfected for you with
(38:15):
your curse, with your heels? Did you have to really adjust
things just naturally based on the fact of like how you knew
you looked in your mind and in space, you know, where there's
certain just natural things thatcame?
I talked a lot about using a crossbody bag as a prop to help
your body language, your feminine body language, and what
(38:36):
to do with your hands in the same way as if you have nails,
it's going to make you aware of your hand in a whole different
way. Your hand is going to naturally,
I don't know, it's going to be naturally when I have my nails
done, I'm more likely to put my hands towards my face, which I
may do anyways, but because I have nails on, I'm like, oh,
this is very or hold something in a different way.
(38:59):
I don't know. Absolutely.
True. Absolutely.
It's all wrapped up in this whole idea of the sense of sight
and the sense of all of our senses and what can we do?
How do we show up in the world? Does our feminine self playing
with all these senses? And what are some of the things
that I never really noticed because I'm so focused in my
(39:21):
head or I'm so fixated on if something fits or not that I'm
not slowing down to take the time to really marvel at my
feminine self through my sense of sight, smell, touch.
I don't really know about taste.I just realized one your
lipstick or lip balm? Yeah.
By tasting it on your lips. It does.
(39:43):
Yeah, I just, that was the one thing I could come up with.
Yeah. Right.
And who knows, maybe your femme self, you're wishing to take it
to the next level and maybe you can decide that your femme self
likes, you know, to have a fruitof your drink at Starbucks.
I don't freaking know. You're changing the narrative
about who you are. And maybe when you're in this
STEM mode, you could say, oh, well, I tend to really want to
(40:06):
get a pink drink at Starbucks. I'm making this up because it
makes me feel extra girly or whatever it is.
Or when I'm dressed and I go out, I like to get white
Chardonnay. But in male mode it would feel
too exposing and I never would because whatever it is.
Just being able to tune into that fruity, feminine dry notes
(40:26):
of whatever it is with this white chilled wine that you do
when you go out as Cheryl or whatever it is, That is another
aspect to it. There's so much that goes into
our, I want to say, deactivating.
That's like the word in my mind,but undoing this feminine
persona we have. For example, often times when I
(40:47):
meet with clients, I'll wear a red lipstick right where when
I'm out and about, I may not do that or may it depends on where
out is. I use this scrub, take a lip
scrub to take off that red lipstick and then to, you know,
clean it. And that's a whole sensory
experience because I'm taking off that layer of drag, you
know, as Chapel Rowan would say drag or that extra layer of
(41:10):
heightened femininity. And I'm getting back to what
always was for me as a CIS woman, right?
But there's something very sensory about the ritual of
applying makeup and taking off makeup that can also be brought
to this discussion. Big way.
Absolutely. Very sensory.
You have to be very deliberate and intentional when you're
(41:32):
putting on makeup, taking off. You could be like, you know,
just kind of, Oh yeah, putting it on.
There's intention. You're forced to slow down and
smell the roses, so to speak. And I think a lot of what we're
talking about that we don't do in our normal lives when we are
feminizing, that we slow down. I think a lot of it is that we
do slow down, whether because wehave to or because we choose to,
(41:56):
and that allows the senses to soak it up a little bit more.
Right. And you were just describing the
like undoing processes, like I could take off all these things,
but like, I challenge an old doglike you, but doing this forever
to like, whoa, whoa, whoa. A young buck A young buck like
you A. Young dove like myself.
(42:17):
I'm not a young buck in your zest and an old dog in your
practice, OK? I still.
Take offense, old dog. Matrix.
And that's basically what you take all your stuff and you look
at these wipes with all your feminine makeup on it, all the
(42:38):
Reds or whatever it is. Just take a moment to
acknowledge that this is a sensory experience.
This is a part of your feminine self is visualizing the undoing
of Savannah I'm. Going to say no to that.
You know why? You know why I look at my this,
you know, the wipes and stuff toknow that I got it all off.
(42:59):
I'm like, oh man, they're still red on that.
And then I just put some more scrub on and then do my eyes
with the pads and the, the stuff.
It is a ritual, don't get me wrong, because I got to make
sure I take my contacts out at acertain time and I can't do that
when my eyes are full of mascaraor they'll get all icky.
But the undoing, yes, it's a little more unceremonious as the
(43:20):
doing. So I agree with that.
I will tell you a lot of times it is a matter of efficiency for
me because I have the next thingI need to do.
And again, this goes back to men, be a little more logical,
rational, do do do get to the thing, finish the thing.
So I agree with you on that. I think that's very male
centric. And for me, the undoing, a lot
of the times I've already spent several hours as Savannah and
(43:43):
now it's like, OK, I need to change and get out of this
because Judy needs me to do something or I need to get
something done or it's going to be time for dinner soon, right?
Yeah. So for me, that the ceremonious
part is the becoming, the unbecoming is a little less
sensory. Okay, enjoy I guess.
I respect that. I mean, I could definitely take
(44:06):
a little more time and take a little more self-care when it
comes to my regimen and like making sure my face is clean and
all that. I probably could add a little
bit to that. So this old dog will take that
into account and see what this dog can do.
All right, But this old dog alsohas an old cat.
(44:26):
That's me and really, you know, oldest relative.
Really. OK, so let me, let me rephrase
that and say all of us as Homo sapiens, yes.
Now that need to be able to slowdown with everything we do.
(44:47):
And the feminine process as it relates to this podcast and as
it relates to this episode in terms of slowing down and taking
in the senses is something that I can also say for nature, for
getting in your car, for all themindless things we do.
Kind of shifting that to this idea of mindfulness, Yeah.
(45:09):
That I agree. I agree that wholeheartedly.
So this has been a great episode.
Yes, I feel fully fulfilled and I hope that you all enjoyed it
and got something out of it as much as I know I did.
Can I speak to you on it? Did you appreciate being here
(45:30):
for bad topic? Yeah.
Speaking of topics, TuneIn everyweek for a new topic and it's
been really exciting cuz this week I've met with a bunch of
people during the consultation and there was like maybe two or
three that said they're listening to the podcast and
they told me the different episodes they're on.
And it's so exciting for me to hear the episode they're on.
(45:52):
I used to be very into listeningto it by, you know, vicariously
through them. Do you remember that where I
used to whatever. So they'd be on episode 12 and
I'd be like, oh, I gotta press play.
We're both gonna listen like sisters.
But things have gotten a little busier now.
But I just love the idea of newer listeners or listeners
that are even be gone episode 70or 75, as I was told this week.
(46:16):
It just feels like so cool because it's like they're not
technically a newer listener with the sense that they've
listened to 70 fucking episodes.But they have so much to come
that's so exciting, which kind of puts them on this path of so
much greatness to come. I mean, I'm bragging and I love
our body of work and yeah, whatever.
It's all wicked awesome and we love you and bye for now.
(46:42):
And to set into practice, Julie's asking of me to slow
down, I would say until next time.
Till next time, you can find me on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or
at Living with Cross Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah
(47:05):
Hawk. Remember that's HAUK.
And to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hanger or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhanger.com.
(47:26):
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Hello Julie.
I always love it when you're wearing your furriness.
It's. Very animalistic.
(00:50):
And my hair is a deep Crimson. Yeah, you know where I found out
about your hair being a deep Crimson?
I'm Facebook. I had to see a post of you with
your hair all deep. You didn't tell me.
Nobody told me. I.
Know. Sorry, excuse me, it's been a
busy week. All right, I'm just it's.
Been the first week where I am just Julie Rubenstein and Kate
(01:14):
White, a fox and egger, and I'm like taking my position and just
doing this and not doing the other thing that brought me much
exhaustion, disease and, you know, a lack of purpose.
Oh, was that the talking to me part?
You're talking. About no, that was teaching
preschool during a large chunk of my time so that I couldn't
(01:34):
feel in complete alignment. Let me tell you, the layoff was
the best thing that ever happened to me because this week
I felt more like myself than ever.
Like I'm just like living my truth.
I'm getting organized, I'm restructuring.
And I've been really moved to tears about how all my biggest
(01:55):
fears about can't leave that preschool job because and then
fill in the blank. I'm lonely.
I need the conversation. I need lies.
Lies I tell you. Oh, I'm really bad at setting my
own structure. I'm not going to be able to do
that. Lies.
Because the moment I was let go,my schedule just formed itself.
(02:16):
I had more time to see clients during different times.
I had more time to book consultations, to speak about
what I do. And it's just been so exciting.
And I'm just so freaking. I'm just so thankful to have
this opportunity. That's what I see it as.
It's an opportunity for me to rebirth this whole vision I have
(02:38):
and at the same time keep thingsjust as they are with a little
bit more sparkle and a little bit more energy.
So I feel really good. It's interesting.
I had one of our listeners who thinks to us felt inspired to
start their own podcast and gaveme a little shout out and they
asked me. They said, oh, I'm just waiting
for the Fox and Hanger ad, one of your episodes to appear.
(03:03):
And I thought that was really interesting, funny to me because
you and I have talked about overthe years with you writing your
books and the business that I dothis kind of natural ability.
You and I are a walking ad in terms of like our experience
with whatever project we're working on or however it relates
to our work or relates to that page in in the book.
(03:24):
And though we don't have this standard like check out the Fox
and Hager and check out the living with Cross, just whatever
standardized ways that this can appear to feel like we're doing
something intentional. You and I are here all the time
talking about our the process ofwriting your book, why you wrote
the book. If I write a book, I am letting
(03:45):
everyone in on the process the different offering.
So in some ways, our beings and us showing up is a walking
advertisement for who we are andwhat we do.
And also we compromise. We said we'd never do ads from
outside of us having ads put into our show.
That was number one. And #2 we did an intro and an
(04:06):
outro that we tell people who weare and where to find us.
So we do every episode to have. And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud
ally and Co founder of Fax and hanger.com.
So it's there. Right.
That's the piece, people. It's so there that you're just
like, I feel like it's not there.
It could be there. I'm just waiting.
(04:27):
No, it's there. It's everywhere.
OK, so just go to the website, get the books.
We are your friends and we love you very dearly, but it is so in
your face. And it is up to you to go beyond
us with our work, to actually read the book, to actually go to
the website and get to know us on a more intimate, more magical
(04:48):
sense. So yeah, that's that.
It's been a good week. I'm glad to be here.
And I come at these episodes nowwith a new sense of gratitude
and ferociousness. And I don't know, call to arms,
if you will, Mr. Trump. Yes.
So lot happening that elevates us at this time, huh?
(05:09):
Yeah, and it's funny to say thatbecause I was sitting with Judy
before the show. If you're just hanging out and
just talking and I made a a joke, which is a semi joke and
we'll see what happens, say hey,everybody go get the books right
away now before they become criminalized in pornography.
I said, I hope people find my book because the LGBTQ section
(05:31):
of Amazon might be criminalized and made into pornography and
therefore we'll never be able tosell books again.
I said that in jest, but you know what?
The climate is such that it's God knows what's going to
happen. I'm just going to keep on
keeping on as we've said in previous episodes of just being
visible. Just keep doing my thing.
I don't know if I told you this,when Leanne came to see me last
(05:52):
week and she came down and we went to Starbucks, I had been at
the same Starbucks the day previous.
And one of the baristas who who gave me a lovely little note on
a receipt under my cup with a heart.
And so I told her. I said we're going to be back
tomorrow. And unfortunately she went home
early that next day because I saw her yesterday and I said,
(06:12):
what happened to you? I was so bummed that I didn't
get to show off Spana to you. So I showed her the picture and
she was like wow, eating that up.
And. I love that.
And so I've tried to go back today, but she was leaving work
so super early today. Like, there's no way I'm getting
out of bed in time to be ready to come in and show off in
person. Yeah, that is what I wanted to
(06:34):
say in my little preamble here is that being visible, sharing
ourselves with others in a earnest and meaningful way.
And not just be garish about it.Not just be like, I'm here,
accept me and we're are, but just be there.
Just be human. Just be part of the continuity
of life and you're going to find, I feel, or I've been lucky
(06:55):
enough to find a lot of love outthere.
And again, South Carolina, the Upstate, not necessarily a
hotbed of queer acceptance in a lot of ways, but I surround
myself with people who are open to conversation, open to
different ways of life, open to diversity, inclusion, and
equality. And that's where I choose to put
(07:15):
my efforts, and that's where I choose to be visible.
I can't control all the other people who walk in the door of
those coffee shops and what theymay think, but at least I know
I'm a very safe place that I feel very, very comfortable
being in. And they got my back, as you've
said many times in the past as well.
Yeah, I was there today writing my book, book three in the last
(07:38):
70 pages of pre editor rewrites and edits.
So I'm hoping to get that done by next weekend.
And then I'll just start book four, do the same damn thing.
And I don't know man, I think I might be done with the the
writing bug for at least a week before before.
I thought you were gonna say it at least the rest of my life.
(07:59):
No, no, of course not. Never, never, never.
Never. So yeah, you.
So before we get into our topic today, I did want to mention
that the dear listener that gavea shout out to me on their
podcast is Jennifer Hang Gartner.
And please, please excuse me if I just butchered your last name,
but we love you and the podcast is Jennifer's Tale.
(08:23):
My life is a crossdresser special.
She's gun it for us, man. She's already on episode 90 I
think and. Oh God, she's the best.
She's cracking it. And all I have to say is fatty
breast tissue. Okay, the woman got some some
breast tissue and that is my favorite episode on her podcast.
It is like the first episode. And we are so happy that we
(08:46):
could inspire you to do this work because we need all the
podcasts, all the books, all theeverything when it comes to
honoring our own unique story when it comes to our genderqueer
experience. And yeah, spread it.
Let everyone write a book. Spread the news.
Spread the news is what you mean.
(09:07):
Spread your legs, spread the news, spread your tits.
We love it. OK, so moving right along to our
lovely episode today. I selected this topic because it
is a topic I love and why wouldn't I pick a topic I love
to talk about? The topic today that I love that
we're going to get to talk aboutis how sensory integration
(09:31):
affects your cross dressing. How the senses, the eyes, the
ears, the nose, the touch. Am I missing any?
The taste of how all of these wonderful senses that we have
can heighten and do heighten your ability to express yourself
(09:51):
through femininity. I love it.
I love it. I love it in my work at Fox and
Hanger, especially with the coaching that I do.
There's a large focus on sensoryintegration, sensory play,
getting tuned in with your crossdressing self in terms of what
you were drawn to around touch, around how you feel in something
(10:14):
when you put on a feminine item.I often will bridge back to
childhood and think about some of those early memories when you
started cross dressing or when you started realizing that you
had a feminine side to you that likes to express themselves
through female clothes. And a lot of those early
memories are sneaking into theirsister's panty draw, touching
(10:38):
their mom's silk nightgown. Some of those early sensory cues
will set the scene for the adults that we are today in
terms of why we're drawn to certain things, whether it be
style, aesthetic or cuts of things or the weight of things.
For example, I'm thinking of a specific client I work with this
(10:59):
week spoke with me about the weight of clip on earrings.
That studs are one thing, but there's something to be said
about the fact that they don't look feminine, but they can put
on clip on earrings and feel that heaviness of the earlobe.
And that led to me speaking withthem about some other clients.
(11:19):
And this kind of idea that heaviness can be translated to
breast forms, the kind of weighton their breasts.
Now they may not stand up in breast forms and open their eyes
with their sense of sight and see, Oh my God, I'm suddenly
female. But they can close their eyes
and they can touch those breastsand they can lean over and pick
(11:39):
up their phone or pick up laundry.
And if they're wearing them, they feel that heaviness of
their breasts and that cues theminto a very real feminine
experience. They're embodying that feminine
experience in a way they may notbe able to, just visualizing
them more in breast forms. I think for people that aren't
(11:59):
able to dress as much as they like, they may not have passing
privilege or so they're told. I think getting past the image
stuff and weight stuff, size stuff in terms of I wish I was a
size 6 or even a 10, but really I'm a 20, whatever and I can't
look like a woman because of my idea.
(12:21):
Looking like a woman means beingthis size or whatever it is.
Call on your senses, call on your other senses to help guide
this experience because that is something that you can get into
instantly. Verse the hour to it might take
you to get dressed right the theanticipation on the calendar,
(12:43):
the looking at your phone for where your significant other is
located or when's your kids willbe home.
That's very stressful. It takes time.
It takes a lot of energy to get to that point where take a
moment to pull open your underwear drawer and just feel
with your eyes closed all these panties or go into the bathroom
and breathe in this really delicious scented lotion that
(13:06):
can just bring you there instantly.
So that's what I want to talk about today.
I know I've set the scene in terms of couple of different
examples and I know our listeners may be able to relate
to what I'm talking about, but Ilove your take on it in terms of
this sensory experience and how it plays into the cross dressing
experience as a whole. Oh, you said it all.
(13:28):
I think we're good now. You had some really good
examples. The one that spoke to me, and
I've actually had a conversationwith a couple different people
about it, is the breast forms, whether it's the the breastplate
or the insert forms, I would getthe question of, but you can't
feel it. Yes, of course I can't feel the
(13:49):
tactile nature of the form if somebody's touching it.
But you feel the pressure, like you said, you feel the pressure
of the in the weight of it hanging on your chest.
You feel the pressure if you arepushing it in because it is
putting pressure against your skin in that way.
So yes, while you may not be able to get the infinitesimal
(14:10):
sensory experience of it as if it were skin, you do feel a lot
of components that make it feel more realistic.
And that was why I had tried outthe breastplate because I wanted
something that would one, have avery rounded look and have that
hanging that would hang not justfrom the bra and have the bra
(14:31):
straps digging into me as it's dragging it down and also not
sit perfectly. You get sweaty and they move
around and you're readjusting. There's something about having a
breastplate. It is there it.
Is. On you, there's no, you don't
even have to wear a bra because it's all in place.
So some people do the medical adhesive, some people do the
(14:51):
breastplates that are more like the crop tops or the halter tops
that the Velcro behind the neck and as well as the When I was a
kid and going into my mom's bedroom, my sister's bedroom and
feeling the clothes either hanging in the closet or in
their intimate drawers, not understanding the reason why it
was so alluring. It's not like I saw my mom
(15:14):
wearing a slip under her clothesto understand what that slip was
supposed to do. Right.
Right there was very seldom my mom got dressed up, yet those
article clothings were in her drawer for those special events.
And when I'm a young kid, it waslike my mom and dad were going
off to parties every three weeks.
They were all dolled up. So I didn't have an
(15:35):
understanding of what it was supposed to be in the feminine
world. I just knew that the tactile
nature of it, the silkiness, thesmoothness, the slipperiness of
these undergarments was very much something I was drawn to.
Judy and I spoke about this little bit today.
You had sent me the topic, and it said CD Sensory joy.
(15:56):
I said, wow, that's a strange way to put it.
It's like I never heard it said that way.
Sensory joy. So I looked it up and it was
actually a line of things that'sall about ADHD and stimming and
things you use a comfort yourself.
And I catapulted from that notion of well said.
Why don't necessarily feel? I have a large nugget on the
(16:17):
spectrum of ADHD so I don't see that for myself yet.
I also understand the calming effect of feeling something soft
on my skin and in my hands on myskin.
I've talked about before the compression of the undergarments
while other people are like I can't believe you want to wear
those all day. You haven't all cut into you.
(16:38):
But how many people have weighted blankets for sleeping?
We came from our infancy swaddled in tight blankets to
comfort us and bring us closer to the bosom of our mother.
There's so many things that are inherently part of our makeup
that we've draw comfort from, and this is no different.
(16:59):
Yes, we say, well, it's cross dressing.
It's all that's a whole thing. But yet it's not because the
things that we're doing for manyof us are all drawing from this
very human need that we've always come up with.
And this is not only for Crossroads and it could be, it's
for everybody way, the weighted blanket who likes to put a
heated blanket on because they love the warmth.
(17:21):
We cuddle up with those little bedroom buddies, little stuffed
animals that we can hug and feelcloseness to that.
I'll tell you right now in my bedroom, there is a way to
blanket. There are little, little
critters that we can hug overnight.
There's so many things that we do that has nothing to do across
our city in my house that has everything to do with comfort,
(17:42):
calmness, just feeling protectedand safe in your own body and in
your own environment. And I really see a lot of the
things that cross dressing folk do in general, diverse folk do.
It's not necessarily about the type of clothing sometimes, but
we all know that more feminine clothing has more of these
(18:03):
characteristics. So like you put that into the,
like you said, the touch, the feel.
If you put a perfume on, now youhave the smell.
Sometimes just even the scent ofthe clothing itself is something
to put you into a frame of mind.And the only thing I couldn't
figure out is how you put taste into this.
(18:25):
I mean, hearing a taste with twoof us, like, well, I'm not
really sure, but that Judy, I'm sorry, but that Judy said to me.
But that Judy said to me, well, some people like the music and
they got swayed to the music, and that is sensory of itself
too. I'm like, Oh well, there you go.
Well, I mean, just to answer that question right off the bat,
when it comes to sound, there's the clicking of the heels.
(18:46):
And maybe you don't directly acknowledge it because you're so
focused on the heaviness of yourbreasts, but there's something
to be said when little children,when I watch little children at
my former job, biological boys, wear these clickety heels and
have them click on the linoleum floor.
There's something to be said when I'm able to recall my
(19:09):
favorite teachers. My favorite teachers were the
ones that had a soundtrack to their shoes, so I always hear
them down the hall. And that translated to my adult
self where literally every shoe I own has a particular sound and
it's not the same. Every sound has a different
thing. And it's so weird to me.
(19:29):
Like a bikers ring, you know what I mean?
Like I have these particular combat boots that when I walk in
them, they sound like they have a bell to them.
And then there's a sloshing 1 and then there's my favorite
little booties. I love them so much that that
one of the block heels are like hollow and I won't throw them
out. So when I walk, it's like a
(19:49):
pirate sound. Where's that one click?
It's a little bit different because it's hollowed out now to
some people would drive them crazy and they hate it and
they'd get rid of the shoes. But for me, it's extremely
soothing. But yeah, you just spoke about a
lot of. Different aspects of this
sensory stuff and it's all very important and it's all something
(20:10):
that I want to acknowledge today.
The idea that we enhance gender euphoria through touch, whether
it be through all the variety ofdifferent silky, satiny fabrics,
just touching them makes it morealluring and makes it more
interesting a fabric than let's say your boy wardrobe might,
right? There's a delight to touch and
(20:31):
move your hands through all of these different garments that
has this euphoric nature to it. When you put on a pair of
stockings that encasement. Often my work involves slowing
down the getting dressed processin a way that's very
intentional, almost like in a way if you were going to get a
body massage or you were to scanyour body if you're having
(20:55):
trouble sleeping, where we startfrom one part of your body and
we slow it down throughout otherparts of your body.
One of the things is like putting on pantyhose, noticing
through your senses how it feelson your toes, really noticing
how your toes feel and look withhaving the Sheerness of the
pantyhose that is very alluring,very erotic and very, very
(21:18):
comforting. Building confidence through a
variety of different textures and that comfort feeling.
Like you spoke about the weighted blanket, or you spoke
about that comment about the weighted blanket and feeling
very calm in the clothes that you wear with the weight.
That so reminded me of the crossdresser that moves beyond
this feverish, kinky sensory play and gets dressed.
(21:42):
And as soon as they're dressed, or as soon as they put that
skirt on, or as soon as they button up that blouse, there's
not this overwhelming sense of erotic explosion or climax.
Literally, sometimes there's this feeling of calm.
There's this calmness of feelinglike they are held, a feeling
(22:03):
like they are at home in their body, and it's something that
can be connected to a memory of their mother and how they look
when they go off to work at thisplace or the other place.
And that they be held or hugged or whatever memory is cueing
your body that this equals a sense of calm.
So be it. But often it leaves a lot of
(22:25):
crossdressers really confused. Like why do I feel really calm
dressed as the opposite sex? Sometimes that involves a lot of
anxiety that could follow if youdon't fully understand why it
is. And then there's this rabbit
hole of the emotions that you'retaking stock up and you're
thinking you're really fucked up.
And then you go into the shame, you unpack the shame box, right?
(22:47):
And you're just like, well, thisisn't OK, this is damning or
this is shameful or but why do Ifeel so calm?
I'm not calm. I'm freaking out, you know what
I mean? And it's just, it's more basic
than that. Any thoughts that you can add
into that narrative that makes you feel suddenly go from calm?
Because often when we feel calm,on the other side of calm is a
(23:08):
sense of panic. And there's a sense very closely
of I shouldn't be calm, I'm too calm.
And Oh my God, why am I too calm?
I'm fully dressed. What time is it?
I got to get out of here. I'm fucked up.
I'm transgender. Hello.
Mayday, Mayday, Mayday. There's a lot to it and it's
fascinating. I think we talked about movies a
long time ago in an early episode and I want to reiterate
(23:29):
one of those movies, which was Johnny Depp and Ed Wood.
Ed Wood was the one who did GlenGlenda in the 50s.
He was a super independent filmmaker and he was just making
the most bizarre things at the time even.
I mean, it's just crazy what he was putting out or trying to put
out. And so Glen Glenda came out and
(23:51):
it was all about the semi autobiographical telling of why
he dressed in femme. And one of the scenes that I
recall was he had this angora sweater and he was overcome with
a panic attack. But once he he put on the agora
sweater and the outfit and the wig, all of a sudden he was able
to command being a director and directing his actors and
(24:14):
actresses to do this thing. I think the original Glenn
Glenda is crazy. If you can find, I think it's on
you probably. Can find it together.
Yeah, we, I think we did. I mean that for the movie watch
part, I think so a lot of moviesthat that was.
That was the original 1 and thatthe Johnny Depp I think Tim
Burton movie was based on, but it was more based on him as a
(24:37):
figure in Hollywood versus the actual product.
Yeah, we saw the original and itwas really at a time trying to
demystify what cross dressing was.
But it was just some of the language and some of the
understanding of it of the original 1950 in the 50s one was
like, oh man, wow, that's so outdated.
(24:58):
Yet the idea of him finding confidence within himself by the
simple act of putting on this armor of clothing to give him
that confidence in the softness of the angora sweater, in the
tactical nature and all the things that went into it,
allowed him to be able to do what he intended to do as a
(25:18):
filmmaker. So I tell you, Ed Wood, watch
that with Johnny Depp. Glenn, I think it's is it Glenn
Glenda or Glenn verse Glenda? I can't remember the title.
Glenn Glenda sounds familiar. Yeah, you find that on YouTube I
think just crazy in terms of thinking about what was being
put out. But I think it it speaks to this
topic in a very slanted way where you can see somebody going
(25:40):
through it externally and say, Oh yeah, I can see what's going
on there. That was one thing I thought of
when you were speaking about thecalmness that you get.
And it's even in my book, the first book, 1st and 2nd book,
talk about escapism, the escape artist that Dons the clothing to
get away from the real life and how there's a comfort by
(26:01):
becoming this other person that has no worries.
But then there's also the personwho loves the calmness, the
sensory aspect of it. They have this hectic quote UN
quote real life, but then they can push that to the side and
allow themselves to feel something different by the
clothing, by the material, by the presentation.
(26:23):
And those things are very much for everybody.
We keep talking about it under across dressing lens or a dual
gender lens. But think about any person in
your life who men once they get home, the bra comes off, the
sweatpants go on and get into your tracksuit or your
sweatpants and hoodie. I mean, those are things we do
(26:43):
because we find comfort and it'sjust, ah, I see, ah moment.
Yeah, no, something I definitelystarted last week, which I'm
going to acknowledge is my firstweek of just doing this quote.
Quote is I made a rule for myself that I will get dressed
to the nines as a stylist from not 9:00 to 5:00, but at least
(27:08):
from the hours of let's say 8:00AM to 4:00.
I would dress and potentially I will dress in a way that makes
me feel I'm living my dream job.I'm that fashionista stylist.
And then when the quote work dayis over, I will then change into
something like sweatpants, yoga pants, like whatever it is that
(27:29):
represents that, that calming. And for some of you listeners
and major is maybe the total opposite of what I just said,
which is to calm yourself down. It may be that intentional femme
outfit. There's something to be said
psychologically and that's why I've always been turned on by
style and fashion is that side aspect and the feeling aspect of
(27:51):
what clothes communicate for youwithout saying a word, right?
You don't need to say a word. You just put it on and suddenly
you have become whatever it is, this particular clothing item,
this bodycon dress, this yoga pants and athletic top is for
you. Now it was very, very, very
(28:12):
tempting at the start to go frommy bar method class, then sit on
the couch and do the work like Ialways did on my phone wearing
just my yoga outfit. And I said, Oh, no, no, no, no,
sweetie, this is fox and hanger 2 point O.
This is getting ready intentionally.
Not only are you going to look the part and put on the clothes,
(28:34):
but you're going to sit at the desk.
So you will no longer be doing work on your phone, on the
couch, in whatever you can do asyou can, pushing it to the side.
This is what intentional means. And I think that setting those
intentions, whether before the amount of time you dress or for
your sensory exploration, it's really important because it's
(28:56):
your time. So it's your time to do whatever
you need to do to get something out of the experience, whether
it be calm, whether it be focused, whether it be a
heightened sense of self, a release of a king, whatever it
is we're accepting. And we're talking about all of
it in terms of sensory play. But sensory integration, when it
(29:18):
comes to your feminine self and showing up in the world or
showing up for yourself, it's all very similar and very
important. And just like the building of
confidence through the differentadditions you add yourself in
terms of the sensory exploration.
So for example, if putting a wigon with long hair and seeing
(29:39):
that long hair, looking down at your, not looking in the mirror,
but looking down at your shoulders and seeing this like
long hair and having that represent you as a feminine
being, it's huge. That's confidence, the heaviness
of it, the practice of brushing your hair maybe while it's on
your head. That idea when you close your
(30:00):
eyes and you brush your long hair, that that's a moment in
time where you can then in your own mind's eye, create this
beautiful feminine image about what you look like.
Whether it's so far removed fromwhat would happen if you
actually stood up and looked in the mirror, that's totally
irrelevant. What you're doing is you're
putting yourself in the body of,so you're using this brush to
(30:21):
stroke your long hair and you'refeeling the weight of the hair
and you're running your fingers through it.
That's all a huge sensory aspectof this and kind of like a
porthole to that feminine side of you that is very, very
affirming. It's so healthy for you and it
lacks that negative speech that comes from when you were to
(30:41):
visually see yourself. Let's say you you took yourself
out of that and you got on a zoom call and you're just
staring at yourself and you're like that's not it.
Or you walk open to the mirror and you're like fuck this.
And you just see your man face and you're suddenly ripped from
that moment of pure, pure sensory joy.
I absolutely agree with that because I had that when I was on
(31:04):
that podcast appearance we spokeabout last week where I was
looking at myself, the Savannah self on the call and her
lighting was just Primo. Everything was soft and perfect
and even and mine's like harsh. And I'm looking at myself going,
oh God, I hate the way Savannah's face looks.
It's too stark, it's too contrasty.
I feel like all the wrinkles areshowing.
(31:25):
And you're right. It's one thing to, while sight
is a very sensory part of the experience, especially for a lot
of us who like to see the finished product and like to see
the ensemble and see how it all fits in, flares and settles.
But there is some that it can bevery distracting or it can very
(31:47):
much take you out of the experience if you're not
confident in the presentation itself.
So yes, being able to close youreyes and whether it's feeling
the manufacturer curves of your body or touching your hair or
just sensing the compression on your body of the pantyhose, of
the shapewear, feeling the hair,feeling the fingernails.
(32:07):
I used to be really big. One of the things I love to look
at early on was the press on nails.
So while I didn't have to look at my face or my body, I could
just look at my nails and how I extended my fingertips and made
them a little more feminine and elongated.
And that was a big thing for me.And I spent a lot of time after
the makeup trying to put them all on and make sure they don't
(32:29):
fly off at the wrong times or come home missing three of them.
And after a while, I realized that wasn't something I needed
as much as I got more confident in the embodiment of my
femininity in general. So I didn't have to worry about
a focus point that I I always went to.
So it became more the entirety of the experience of who I was
presenting versus just, well, everything else looks that crap,
(32:51):
but hey, look at these nails. Right, right, right.
So it is an evolution as well, even in the sensory joy of
things. And you find that some things
work for quite some time and then realize, well, I'm, I'm
becoming more confident in different ways.
I like these breast forms I finally got that fit me
perfectly or more perfectly, or I have a better sense of hip
pads or I'm wearing this other shapewear and everything starts
(33:14):
coming together. As you become more and more
experienced, that then leads to a redefining of the sensory
experience that does bring you joy.
Yeah, and we're all really big visual people, right?
We just are. And we are, especially with the
male brain. We are very much I don't have a
male brain, but like the biological.
(33:36):
I was going to call you on that,by the way.
I'm like, maybe our male brain. What's going on?
And I do that with the trans stuff as well.
So yes, an honorary member, but I don't have an honorary male
brain. So yes, basically.
But with the biological male brain, I noticed that there's a
lot of logic, there's a lot of reason, and there's a lot of
this idea of achievable goals, right?
(33:57):
And completion, especially when it comes to the male to female
transformation. So it's very attractive to maybe
say in X amount of weeks, I wantto be this not I want to be
cured, but I want to be the bestfeminine version of myself.
So how do we get there, right? And so for me, I can of course
(34:17):
come up and I will. And I am with the nine week
program to say, OK, this week we're going to focus on body
language and mannerisms that I can spell out the whole thing.
And it's very achievable. And there's steps and all that,
but it's femininity is deeper than that.
It just is. You can go through all of the
training and you can go through the course and you could feel
(34:37):
like at the very end, OK, I've become this woman of my dreams.
And there is that, right? But there's a deeper part of it.
There's a deeper part of the work that doesn't involve just
the looks, right? It involves the looks as well as
embodying the feminine. And what does that mean?
OK, well how do you move in thisdress so I can get you all the
(34:59):
tools and stuff like that, but how does your body feel when you
put on the dress and what are your hands doing?
And OK, well, that's a masculine, automatic thing.
Let's slow it down. Let's notice how female bodies
move and how male bodies move just naturally.
So I could do all the styling inthe world and I could feminize
(35:20):
someone to a tee, and suddenly they're meeting with me and
they're sitting like a linebacker.
I'm not passable. Well, it doesn't matter because
you're wearing all the clothes and I taught you how to do your
makeup and you're wearing the perfect wig.
If you're sitting with me and I can see your family jewels
during our work together in undies, it's dark in there.
(35:41):
But I'm simply saying if the dress is wearing you and you're
not wearing the dress in your whole body and you're not tuning
into things like am I able to put this leg over the other leg
with my weights and my body type?
Or is this unrealistic? OK, How else can I cross my
legs? OK, at the ankle, right?
That's all very important. And that involves a slower step.
(36:04):
And I'm going to put on these clothes.
But Julie's asking me how do I feel like when I put it on?
Well, I want to get to the lookspart, but it's not about that.
We're reformatting that masculine thinking brain with a
feminine lens, which is very, very, very different.
Oh, it's so funny. I said that.
(36:25):
It brought up a memory for me from last summer when I was at
the Atlanta Comfort Conference. I met up with Diane Lane, and so
I think the last day before I was heading home, we had
breakfast since I was just regular old Chuck.
There's a lot of stairs up and down in the Commons area where
there's a restaurant, there's a bar, there's all these different
(36:45):
levels that you can sit and havelittle alcoves.
And so I was just dressed as Chuck.
Everything was in the car. It was ready to go.
We were going to meet up to havebreakfast.
I went bounding up the stairs and she called me out.
She was like, wow, you sure do walk differently as Chuck than
you do as Savannah. Because I was just like, you
(37:07):
know, just very manly, just bounding up the stairs 2 at a
time, not dainty, not being concerned about walking prim and
properly as a lady. Because I was like, dude, I was
just Chuck. It didn't matter.
But the fact that I got called out on it, I thought was very
fun. That it is for me.
There's so much diversity between my movement to your
(37:28):
point about composure and compartment and how you posture
and how you cross your legs and how you walk in the heels and
how you move your body, all that.
I have almost very much, like you said, integrated in my brain
to be muscle memory and automatic.
But when I'm Chuck, it's just whatever male default blah blah
blah blah blah, right? So while I may hold a little
(37:51):
that feminine mannerism when I am Chuck, there is a a huge
difference between how I hold myself when I'm wearing clothes
of the feminine persuasion versus of Mal persuasion.
Yes, no, yeah, it's funny. It's it's very yeah, it's very
interesting. And how you over the years
perfected that feminine form, orwas it perfected for you with
(38:15):
your curse, with your heels? Did you have to really adjust
things just naturally based on the fact of like how you knew
you looked in your mind and in space, you know, where there's
certain just natural things thatcame?
I talked a lot about using a crossbody bag as a prop to help
your body language, your feminine body language, and what
(38:36):
to do with your hands in the same way as if you have nails,
it's going to make you aware of your hand in a whole different
way. Your hand is going to naturally,
I don't know, it's going to be naturally when I have my nails
done, I'm more likely to put my hands towards my face, which I
may do anyways, but because I have nails on, I'm like, oh,
this is very or hold something in a different way.
(38:59):
I don't know. Absolutely.
True. Absolutely.
It's all wrapped up in this whole idea of the sense of sight
and the sense of all of our senses and what can we do?
How do we show up in the world? Does our feminine self playing
with all these senses? And what are some of the things
that I never really noticed because I'm so focused in my
(39:21):
head or I'm so fixated on if something fits or not that I'm
not slowing down to take the time to really marvel at my
feminine self through my sense of sight, smell, touch.
I don't really know about taste.I just realized one your
lipstick or lip balm? Yeah.
By tasting it on your lips. It does.
(39:43):
Yeah, I just, that was the one thing I could come up with.
Yeah. Right.
And who knows, maybe your femme self, you're wishing to take it
to the next level and maybe you can decide that your femme self
likes, you know, to have a fruitof your drink at Starbucks.
I don't freaking know. You're changing the narrative
about who you are. And maybe when you're in this
STEM mode, you could say, oh, well, I tend to really want to
(40:06):
get a pink drink at Starbucks. I'm making this up because it
makes me feel extra girly or whatever it is.
Or when I'm dressed and I go out, I like to get white
Chardonnay. But in male mode it would feel
too exposing and I never would because whatever it is.
Just being able to tune into that fruity, feminine dry notes
(40:26):
of whatever it is with this white chilled wine that you do
when you go out as Cheryl or whatever it is, That is another
aspect to it. There's so much that goes into
our, I want to say, deactivating.
That's like the word in my mind,but undoing this feminine
persona we have. For example, often times when I
(40:47):
meet with clients, I'll wear a red lipstick right where when
I'm out and about, I may not do that or may it depends on where
out is. I use this scrub, take a lip
scrub to take off that red lipstick and then to, you know,
clean it. And that's a whole sensory
experience because I'm taking off that layer of drag, you
know, as Chapel Rowan would say drag or that extra layer of
(41:10):
heightened femininity. And I'm getting back to what
always was for me as a CIS woman, right?
But there's something very sensory about the ritual of
applying makeup and taking off makeup that can also be brought
to this discussion. Big way.
Absolutely. Very sensory.
You have to be very deliberate and intentional when you're
(41:32):
putting on makeup, taking off. You could be like, you know,
just kind of, Oh yeah, putting it on.
There's intention. You're forced to slow down and
smell the roses, so to speak. And I think a lot of what we're
talking about that we don't do in our normal lives when we are
feminizing, that we slow down. I think a lot of it is that we
do slow down, whether because wehave to or because we choose to,
(41:56):
and that allows the senses to soak it up a little bit more.
Right. And you were just describing the
like undoing processes, like I could take off all these things,
but like, I challenge an old doglike you, but doing this forever
to like, whoa, whoa, whoa. A young buck A young buck like
you A. Young dove like myself.
(42:17):
I'm not a young buck in your zest and an old dog in your
practice, OK? I still.
Take offense, old dog. Matrix.
And that's basically what you take all your stuff and you look
at these wipes with all your feminine makeup on it, all the
(42:38):
Reds or whatever it is. Just take a moment to
acknowledge that this is a sensory experience.
This is a part of your feminine self is visualizing the undoing
of Savannah I'm. Going to say no to that.
You know why? You know why I look at my this,
you know, the wipes and stuff toknow that I got it all off.
(42:59):
I'm like, oh man, they're still red on that.
And then I just put some more scrub on and then do my eyes
with the pads and the, the stuff.
It is a ritual, don't get me wrong, because I got to make
sure I take my contacts out at acertain time and I can't do that
when my eyes are full of mascaraor they'll get all icky.
But the undoing, yes, it's a little more unceremonious as the
(43:20):
doing. So I agree with that.
I will tell you a lot of times it is a matter of efficiency for
me because I have the next thingI need to do.
And again, this goes back to men, be a little more logical,
rational, do do do get to the thing, finish the thing.
So I agree with you on that. I think that's very male
centric. And for me, the undoing, a lot
of the times I've already spent several hours as Savannah and
(43:43):
now it's like, OK, I need to change and get out of this
because Judy needs me to do something or I need to get
something done or it's going to be time for dinner soon, right?
Yeah. So for me, that the ceremonious
part is the becoming, the unbecoming is a little less
sensory. Okay, enjoy I guess.
I respect that. I mean, I could definitely take
(44:06):
a little more time and take a little more self-care when it
comes to my regimen and like making sure my face is clean and
all that. I probably could add a little
bit to that. So this old dog will take that
into account and see what this dog can do.
All right, But this old dog alsohas an old cat.
(44:26):
That's me and really, you know, oldest relative.
Really. OK, so let me, let me rephrase
that and say all of us as Homo sapiens, yes.
Now that need to be able to slowdown with everything we do.
(44:47):
And the feminine process as it relates to this podcast and as
it relates to this episode in terms of slowing down and taking
in the senses is something that I can also say for nature, for
getting in your car, for all themindless things we do.
Kind of shifting that to this idea of mindfulness, Yeah.
(45:09):
That I agree. I agree that wholeheartedly.
So this has been a great episode.
Yes, I feel fully fulfilled and I hope that you all enjoyed it
and got something out of it as much as I know I did.
Can I speak to you on it? Did you appreciate being here
(45:30):
for bad topic? Yeah.
Speaking of topics, TuneIn everyweek for a new topic and it's
been really exciting cuz this week I've met with a bunch of
people during the consultation and there was like maybe two or
three that said they're listening to the podcast and
they told me the different episodes they're on.
And it's so exciting for me to hear the episode they're on.
(45:52):
I used to be very into listeningto it by, you know, vicariously
through them. Do you remember that where I
used to whatever. So they'd be on episode 12 and
I'd be like, oh, I gotta press play.
We're both gonna listen like sisters.
But things have gotten a little busier now.
But I just love the idea of newer listeners or listeners
that are even be gone episode 70or 75, as I was told this week.
(46:16):
It just feels like so cool because it's like they're not
technically a newer listener with the sense that they've
listened to 70 fucking episodes.But they have so much to come
that's so exciting, which kind of puts them on this path of so
much greatness to come. I mean, I'm bragging and I love
our body of work and yeah, whatever.
It's all wicked awesome and we love you and bye for now.
(46:42):
And to set into practice, Julie's asking of me to slow
down, I would say until next time.
Till next time, you can find me on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or
at Living with Cross Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah
(47:05):
Hawk. Remember that's HAUK.
And to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hanger or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhanger.com.
(47:26):
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
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