March 26, 2025 • 42 mins
In this episode, Savannah talks to Julie about the intersectionality of a crossdresser's understanding of their feminine Identity against a cosplayer's feminine presentation of a known character meant as a homage to that character. This dynamic duo gear up, set batteries to power, turbines to speed, and discuss the similarities and differences between embodying one's own inherent femininity and embodying the femininity of a beloved and admired character.
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, understanding
the feminine cross dressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hey, Julie. Hi, Savannah.
How are you? I'm good, I'm good, you know,
just living the dream. I said yes.
Am I just back from Keystone y'all?
(00:50):
Thanks. Thanks to everyone that I got to
catch up with and meet. Too many people to rattle off
during this conversation, but you had a great time as always.
It's amazing, but it's always very exhausting travelling,
driving back and forth. I had a very good time.
So 2 trips in the month of March.
(01:11):
The 1st was business trip at thestart of the month, then the
trip to Keystone for the end of the month.
So yeah, I'm a little tired. Little tired.
Well, you look gorgeous. Well, you are so, so kind and
you look so much better this week because last week we were
talking about your chemise lace discoloration Rashi on your
(01:32):
chest. You look, Leo, so much better.
Yeah, last week you had mistakenmy cortisone cream for a lovely
lace overlay. I think we're going to start
rebranding it as Chantilly Cortisone, yeah.
Chantilly that's. Hilarious.
You're feeling and looking better as well.
You're always gorgeous, but justsometimes we have a little
(01:52):
blemishing here and there that we can't control.
But what's going on in your life?
Let's see, I mean, I want to saynot much, but it's almost like
everything is happening. Like it's like everything is
happening in terms of being ableto just honor and celebrate Fox
and Hanger. I put out my nine week
(02:12):
feminization program, which is going amazing.
It really gives me a time and a chance to really connect with
clients over a nine week period of time, starting from the
inside and working our way out. It's been phenomenal and amazing
and so inspiring. And I don't know, it's like when
you write that book and you sendit out into the world and then
(02:37):
it is up to the world to find you and process it as they may
and have their own experience with it.
So yeah, I'm really delighted. When I did my individual
coaching, it was tricky because I had a different schedule,
different than I have right now,and I couldn't work with that
many individuals because of the time difference with my clients
(03:01):
and myself and because of a bunch of different reasons,
mainly my schedule. And now it has allowed me to
just open up and have a chance to meet with clients and just
have this experience with them over 9 weeks rather than maybe
someone booking with me once andthen four months later another
time. It it really allows them to have
(03:23):
that commitment to their femininity and it just, I don't
know, it's very inspiring. So if anyone listening would
like to approach their femininity with a more
integrated approach beyond just the physical, although the
physical and the presentation, that's all part of it.
If anyone's looking for a deeperway to acknowledge and honor
(03:46):
that feminine part of themselves, then please go to
Fox and Hanger and check out my new offering.
And it is a love letter between everything I've done at Fox and
Hanger and all the wisdom I haveon this podcast, and I'm just
really excited. So yeah, that's not a shameless
plug. That was just a plug that just
came down. I was going to tell you about
(04:06):
the wedding shower I had to go to this weekend, but it just
came to be. So yes, everything is going
great. I am super proud of you and
excited for you with this new venture.
I know it's been a long time ready to bloom and now you just
had the the means and the availability to get it done.
As with many of us, as we all know, sometimes life gets in the
(04:29):
way of the things you're passionate about and you just
keep holding on to the thing until it's ready until it just
bursts forth like a alien bursting forth out of your
chest. Like from like an aliens.
Maybe I should do a T-shirt where an alien bursting from the
chest but with rainbow shooting out of it.
Wait. And I just want to say before we
(04:49):
we move on and maybe get into what we're here to discuss today
is the fact that I am still doing the look books.
Kate and I are thriving in that area.
And so please don't be a stranger.
No, never. Oh, before we go on, I have to
also convey very important news.I'm not sure if you know, I was
(05:11):
fussing around with ChatGPT alsoon the heels of doing some
podcast stuff. And I'm like, oh, and I had it
happen before. I actually used ChatGPT to find
something for me because sometimes when you go looking
for data, it's really hard to know where to go.
So just look at all the compileddata it can come across on the
interwebs. It's supposed to be awesome.
(05:31):
So I want I wanted to read to you, I said what is the current
ranking based on subscribers anddownloads for the Fox and the
Phoenix Podcast? Chet GPT said.
As of February 2025, the Fox andthe Phoenix Podcast has achieved
notable recognition within its niche.
It is ranked among the top 5% ofpodcasts globally over 3.4
(05:55):
million podcasts as a top 5%. That's amazing.
And on Apple podcast, it holds a4.6 on A5 rating.
Additionally, it has been featured as a leading podcast in
feed spots. List of 10 best cross dressing
podcasts. Who do we have to thank?
(06:15):
Our listeners and listeners who share the podcast and people who
talk about the podcast and give it a wider reach.
It isn't us. You talk about putting the
advertising or the feelers out in the world for your new
program. And if you build it, they will
come. And we've built this.
And it has been our listeners that have spread the word far
(06:36):
and wide, way beyond us. Because I'm only going to listen
to a podcast that somebody recommends it to me typically.
And I know others may be like that.
So those of you in the community, thank you, thank you,
thank you, thank you so much formaking us the best cross
dressing podcast #1 according toFeed spot.
And to be the top 5%, Yeah, we're not pulling in Joe Rogan
(06:59):
numbers, but to be the top 5% ofall podcast is just mind blowing
to me. So thank you to everyone.
Yes, thank you to everyone. And we also want to give a
little shout out to all those listeners that have been with us
from the beginning. To all those listeners who have
(07:21):
who are hopped in somewhere in the middle, we love you.
And to all those listeners who are new to our podcast, welcome.
We are thriving and beautiful community.
And another shout out to those individuals who have been
inspired by our podcast enough to create their own thing to
say, hey, they can do it, why can't we?
(07:42):
We have some individuals who have written books and some who
have created their own podcast and we just want to say yes.
And we see you and we love you and we wish you so much love
moving forward. This is a collaborative effort.
In my mind we have moved from the fringe to somewhere else,
but that of course is in my mindand we are effing amazing.
(08:09):
We are effing amazing. Yeah, people who have gone
beyond us and created their own things.
Yes, it's quite because when I was writing, before I wrote my
first book, one of my Co workerswas saying, wow, my husband's
writing a book and he's going topublish it on Amazon.
I'm like, what? I can't do.
So I was thinking, it's like, you know, Savannah can make a
podcast. I absolutely can.
(08:30):
Yes. Trust me, it is a labor of love.
It is lots of work. We love doing it.
We love being here every week and let's run hiatus and just
bringing it. And I love bringing it.
I love coming up with new thingsto talk about or revisiting old
things and expanding upon it. And I love that people have
taken our work or as taking our podcast as a jump point to
(08:54):
create something even more vibrant and more amazing within
their own journey. Yes, me too.
Yeah, but and also. And furthermore and.
Furthermore, let's get into our topic today.
We have spoken about this in thepast, maybe not as its own
episode, but because I am very familiar with both of these
(09:17):
entities. I want to talk about the
intersectionality of cross dressing, male, female cross
dressing, and cosplay. And the reason why I bring it up
because one, I do both and two, one of the things I was asked
several years ago was, oh, so Savannah's cosplay.
(09:42):
I said, huh, is it Savannah thatmakes me cosplay and crossplay
or is it Chuck? Because I'm not being Savannah
dressed as somebody, I'm being the character to completion,
whether it's a fiber or black cat or whoever it is I'm
embodying. And I'm not thinking to myself,
(10:03):
it's Savannah who's doing this work.
Right. But it doesn't discount the fact
that it might be Savannah's influence that I like to cross
play, which means biologically male but typically doing female
characters. And we have many, many people
who cause play and cross play that do female to male
(10:23):
characters or gender bending or taking typically masculine or
feminine characters and spinningit to the opposite gender.
I mean, that happens a lot. So yeah, the intersectionality
of where those things happen andwhere the cross dressing stops
in the cosplay and begins when people stop being polite and
start being real. Nice, Nice.
(10:45):
Yeah. It's, it's so interesting
because when you threw this topic out for me, one of the
things you said is a feminine persona versus the art of
femininity. And when thinking about you
cosplaying in a feminine form, it feels to me like Chuck is
(11:06):
dressing up in a feminine way. And Chuck is expressing this
particular character that is within the Marvel Universe, that
is within this powder puff arena, that is paying homage to
someone that is beloved by little boys with comic books
(11:28):
everywhere, that is known on a larger Marvel scale with this
totally separate community. Have you gone with the muscles
in a male way for cosplaying? Yes, you have.
So for me, if I don't see it as Savannah anywhere, I just don't.
I I don't get that sense. You don't look the same.
(11:51):
It's not like when I see you alldressed up and all dolled up.
I don't see, Oh, there's Savannah.
No, I'm like, there's Chuck's eyeballs.
It's more of Chuck putting on a costume and expressing this
particular entity that is already beloved by all of its
followers. OK, so that's one thing.
(12:11):
And the second thing I want to say is when you said the words
feminine persona versus the art of femininity, those sound very
separate when typed to me right now.
But when I think about feminine persona versus the art of
femininity, when I read this, when I read this originally in
our messaging as we're planning for today's episode, it reminded
(12:34):
me of the early days of my Fox and hanger career, the early
days of our podcast where I verymuch would meet people where
they're at when it comes to their and I'm using quotes
feminine persona. I definitely metabolized it or
understood it that once feminineside was their feminine persona.
(12:59):
When I understood that or that reality locked in, in terms of
my own understanding, it definitely came from the
community. It wasn't something that I just
decided on my own or this means this.
It definitely was something thatwhat I learned from the
community that this is a way that they understand that
(13:22):
feminine part of themselves, they call it, it's their female
persona. And as I've learned more, met
more people and the world has evolved, and your understanding
of yourself in terms of being dual gender and other people
being like, oh, that fits for me.
It definitely changed a little bit.
(13:44):
So when I viewed your idea for this topic, I thought about the
past me and how I viewed that idea of feminine persona and how
I view it now. And it was fascinating because
it showed my growth and at the same time, I'm also still
learning and understanding. I still don't know if it's black
or white, but definitely a Gray area that people may still
(14:05):
identify their feminine self as their feminine persona because
that is a part of them, that it's a side of them and and
persona is how they understand it.
And I agree with what you said also between between the past
Savannah and the current Savannah, I don't know if I've
told you this, but whenever it went to my first New York Comic
(14:26):
Con, I didn't dress as a character.
I just wanted to go because I was a comic fan and I was a
Walking Dead fan and I want to go do all the things.
And I think I went the next yearthe same way.
I don't think I dressed. I don't think I came up with the
character. But as I started seeing more and
more cosplayers. Now mind you, Savannah's been
around for decades prior to this, but cosplay was not
(14:50):
something I felt I could be successful at, and I didn't feel
like I was a cosplayer when I thought of cosplay.
And back then, it was like people who spend half the years
sewing their own clothes and creating their own characters
and showing up in a mass that way.
And they're, like you said, paying homage to that character
because they're it's so beloved as its own entity, as its own
(15:12):
character, that I want to now take it and pay homage to it
through presentation. For me, as a cosplay, I could
never cosplay. That just sounds absurd.
But then year three, I'm going to do Miss Marvel in her most
skimpy outfit. Yeah, that'll work.
Yeah. With thigh high boots and the
gloves going up with the arms and just basically in a bathing
(15:33):
suit with like sash. And I loved it.
I love trying to get it put together.
I am not the seamstress. I am not somebody who's crafty.
So I bought all the pieces that Judy helped me get, the emblem
affixed to the outfit, the wholebit.
And was I the best cosplayer ever?
No, of course not. And I'm that's not being self
(15:55):
sabotaging, that's me being no. Trust me, as a man trying to be
the female character, I think I did OK, but it was nowhere near
elevating winning prizes and that's fine.
That being said, I loved it. I love that people stop to take
pictures with me because they love the character.
I. Don't know who I am.
They're like, Oh my God, is Savannah Hawk dressed as Miss
(16:16):
Marble? No, they don't care.
They just saw the character thatthey love, like you said.
Or that's a man wearing tits at a it wasn't that big, wasn't
that serious. It was just like, that's that
character. And from what I get a sense in
these conventions, gender is, you know, it's however you show
up, it's that character. Just not to hopefully I don't
(16:38):
offend you with this. But if you go to Disney and you
see Mickey, Pluto, Goofy, not looking at gender, like I wonder
who is Mickey really Mickey? Or is there some tits under the
it's not like that. It's just you see the character
for the character, I'm sure. And I guess I could just ask you
if the fact that you were able to lean into the feminine in
(17:01):
this over the top kind of way did give your inner girl some
Nachus some good feelings. Yeah.
Yeah, Right. I mean, I'd be, you know, really
clueless to say that, oh, that didn't happen.
Let's focus on what really did. Yeah, that was terrified when I
again I'm living on Long Island going up to the elevated train
(17:22):
platform station as this and four inch heels like by myself
and 7:00 AM or 8:00 AM going terrified of what was going to
happen. Got on a train again, all of a
sudden you start seeing all the people that you know are going
to Comic Con. Slowly.
Slowly they like, come on to thestation platform.
I'll say, oh, I know they're going to Comic Con.
Oh, I know. Oh.
(17:43):
Thank God. Yeah, right.
Yeah. They're not necessarily dressed
in cosplay, but just dressed. They're like, yeah, you know,
they're going there because they're wearing.
So they wear T-shirts. So they're wearing something to
let you know that they're intentionally dressed in a
certain way. So all of a sudden, I felt like
I was in my crowd, in my element, the people in my
community, in the cosplay community.
(18:04):
Yeah. And I even had I had a guy who
was dressed as Wolverine with all the goofy puffy muscles, but
if the outfit was pink. And all of a sudden when we were
getting off the train at Penn Station, he was like, hey, you
want to hang out with us? We're going to the Comcon.
I'm like, oh, no, I'm meeting somebody here.
We're like going in together. But like they embraced me and
(18:27):
not because. Of what?
Was they do while I was a guy, most likely because obviously I
spoke to them. So I wasn't like, hey, but
that'd be great. So they knew I was a dude
dressed as Miss Marvel and they were embracing me like let's do
this together. We're all going the same place.
We love the same things. And for me, like you said, it
wasn't Savannah being Miss Marvel.
(18:49):
It was Chuck being Miss Marvel with the added oomph that
Savannah's there saying, hey, it's OK to cross play, to gender
bend because hey, you have me atyour side.
You know, you've got the feminine spark in you.
And I think if it wasn't for Savannah, I don't know if I
would venture into cross play. I think I probably would end up
(19:11):
staying Punisher or something. Just the fact that you just said
that quote, I mean, it was obvious that I was a dude
dressed like Miss Marvel. Like already you're outing the
fact of exactly what we're talking about.
This was Chuck taking on, let's just call it what it is for this
scenario of feminine persona versus the arts of femininity,
(19:33):
which when compared to Marvel, Ijust see a lot of primary
colors, you know, a lot of Zoom symbols and stuff like that.
A lot of a lot of nerds doing their nerdy, powerful thing not
to put down a compliment. OK.
Not to put down. Yeah.
And I'm not trying to disbar your experience of Savannah
(19:53):
being this Angel. Be like, you got this girl.
Because even as Savannah wholly and completely, you're not
really focused on the male voiceright now.
You're focused on honoring the femininity.
So it is very, very different for me.
I see the little Savannah and the fact that you're getting in
your needs mat and the fact thatyou got some tits and they look
(20:16):
great. So you're wearing tight.
Form fitting garb that is very in alignment with Savannah's
aesthetic when it comes to what you enjoy about the feminine.
Right? So Savannah and Chuck, they're
making a lovely cocktail with the Nerdology sauce.
Let me pour a little nerd sauce.And then you got a couple comic
(20:38):
books in there and a couple little Marvels.
By the way, I used to sneak intomy brother's room and he had a
whole binder of the the Marvel characters.
And I was very attracted to someof the bad boys.
And one of them smoked a cigarette.
That's all I'm going to say. It was very edgy.
And I don't know if his name wasBlaze.
Yeah, Blaze was Ghost Rider, butBlaze always had a cigarette
(21:01):
dangling out of the mouth. I'm just saying, OK, some of my
early heterosexual nods were very much sneaking into my
brother's room, checking out thebinder.
Be like, oh, that bad boy, right, That bad boy.
OK, so here we are. I'm going to throw the question
(21:22):
back on you. When you think about your
feminine persona in terms of cross play, Cos play, all that
stuff, and then you think about your femininity as a whole, your
feminine side, your feminine self as it relates to Savannah.
What are some of the similarities, even though we
(21:44):
could have just mentioned them, but what are some of the
similarities and what are some of the stark differences?
Interesting. I'm going to approach it this
way. I think one of the similarities
and differences is that what I am Savannah, Savannah is my
identity is holy me. I chose that I created, that I
made, that is my brand, quote UNquote.
(22:05):
These are the things I did to develop and evolve who Savannah
Hawk is what she likes, how she likes to present, what is her
range of femininity? What's her sweet spot of how she
wants to present? I mean, ironically, if you take
that, it's funny. I just think it's what it'd be
(22:26):
like if somebody else wanted to cosplay Savannah Hawk, right?
That'd be weird. I'd be amazing, but it would
also be weird to see myself likeexternally like that.
But if you think about if Savannah Hawk was a character
quote, UN quote, and then somebody wanted to embody in pay
homage to that character, that is really the same thing I as
(22:47):
Chuck am doing. If I want to pay homage to Black
Pat Delphira, mistress of the dark, Power Girl, Miss Marble,
all those are me wanting to havean an affinity and a love for
that character and then saying, you know what, I think that I
could pull that off, that I could pay homage in a way that I
would be proud of. And so it's very similar in that
(23:10):
way. I am paying homage to that
character. The way difference is, it's
somebody who's not me versus Savannah is me, and I think I
pay homage and give love to Savannah all the times I
present. As for I put as much effort and
kindness and grace into that presentation of my own feminine
(23:31):
identity as I do trying to perfect and be as on point as I
can be for the other characters that I play.
So that would definitely be bothsomething very similar and very
different. And I think the other difference
is just the fact that it is somebody who's established
outside of me, and I put it, I tell you what, I put months of
(23:52):
agonizing pressure on myself, yet I still procrastinate until
a month before the event to be like, oh, I need all this stuff
for Elvira or I need all this stuff for The Powerpuff Girls.
Agonize over how I'm going to doit, and then finally piece it
together last second, probably because I don't know if I'm
going to be able to pull it off or not.
But last second, if I get together after trial and error
(24:14):
and then I'm very happy with theresults.
Whereas Savannah over all those years of trial and error, now
she's very natural to me. Now she is if I need to get up
and I shave and I'm doing the thing, it's it's a 90 minute
thing. I got a closet full of clothes
and a case full of makeup and a bunch of different wigs and like
mix and match and it's not a setpattern, but it's OK.
(24:37):
That's what I need to do with second nature versus Oh no, I
need to be this brand new character off the Marvel
Universe. Oh my God, what am I going to
do? And it's just like that anxiety
of getting it right. Whereas Savannah, I'm past that
point. And I think that while I may
feel Blase or I feel fat this week or I'm not up to it, at the
(24:57):
very least, I know that push come to shove, it's second
nature and mechanic. It's almost muscle memory to
just put on Savannah's face and and go do the thing.
And so for something like Keystone, that wasn't something
that you, I don't know, was it something you even agonized when
it comes to things like a gala or, you know, really being like,
(25:18):
what is the dress I'm going to wear?
Or because you've done it so many times, you're like, that is
not something I'm going to stress about.
I have so many things to stress about.
That is not something it's old hat to me.
It might have been a stress and I'm just making this up.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. It might have been a stress to
me in the past, but I know what looks good.
I know what fits. I'm going to just, I mean, is
(25:39):
that you're giving me the thumbsup.
So yeah. Absolutely, because I remember
my first Keystone one, I was freaking out about how it would
be received. What's going on?
Anytime you go into a new situation, you have no idea what
the template is. Even I was like, I understand
how the conference works but younever know.
Like different personalities andhow it all comes about.
But that first year I was like, I'm wearing this big gorgeous
gown at the gala with a train and it's 40 lbs and it's like I
(26:03):
had all these heady ideas of what was necessary and what
would the thing I wanted to do. Isn't there a range like, like
you can come like from what you've told me, like you can
come in anything from what you were during that day to freaking
the gala at the Met. Met Gala.
Yeah, a lot of. People do that.
That Saturday gala is the just elevated a bit.
(26:25):
Right. A lot.
For a little bit, I wear jeans this morning during the
workshops and that's all I'm going to wear.
Coming to know, usually people kind of judge up a little at
least, but that first year I waslike, I need to be like, I'm
going to the Met Gala. And then as years go on, I
realize, yeah, no, I don't need.I'm good.
I've done it. I had the experience.
(26:46):
And now I'm going for more comfort, but still classy.
I'm still elevated, but I'm not putting, like you said, that
much pressure on myself anymore,right?
You do the thing. And even during the day, it used
to be like, I need to be dressesand this and that all day, every
day. And I was I can do a little more
not yoga pants comfort. Like this looks good.
I already know it. I rather focus my anxiety
(27:09):
somewhere else. Okay, so, so that's one thing I
want to say. Also, I wanted to say got my
notepad. Look at this, look at this.
It's not just a little sticky note.
It's an actual spiral pad of paper.
So I, I want to say something about something you said a few
beats back where you said, you know, be so kind of cool if
(27:30):
someone was walking around like Savannah is their female
persona. And like, first of all, I just
want to say I know that stealingor modeling or whatever is or
stealing an outfit or whatever is like the greatest form of
flattery. But I also want to say when you
said that it like put Savannah into this character realm for
me, you know, and it'll be great.
(27:52):
Don't get me wrong. I'm sure you'd love to have a
comic book that's Savannah related.
I'm sure your nerdy brain would just combust with the two worlds
and you're like, this is fuckingamazing.
But like, it's also a little freaky.
Let's say you're at Keystone andyou were sitting and you, I
don't know. I don't know what I imagine you
doing. What, handing out books or
kissing babies? I don't freaking know what you
(28:13):
do there and then walking acrossyou, you see a shift dress with
like specific. I don't even know what it would
look like to be exactly you because you are you.
It's not like you have enough like Iris Apfel, the famous
fashionista of the dye that's motto was not minimalism, but
maximalism. And she had the dark circular
glasses and the red lips and thegiant necklaces.
(28:35):
I mean, that is something that if I showed up at the fashion
convention or Halloween and was like, wow, you did an iris.
Right, right, right. I.
Mean not to say you're the girl next door, but you're the girl
next door. So how cool it would be for
someone to quote? Do you not literally do you like
sexually, but try to pull off a Savannah?
(28:56):
I don't know. I feel like there's enough
people in the world that have been influenced by you and have
gone to Starbucks and was like, if Savannah can do it, I can.
I'm going to just pretend I'm Savannah in the world, but like
using that as an eternal thing. I don't know.
I mean, I'm very proud of the fact that I brought a big spiral
notebook. So I didn't have that ADD fly
(29:18):
being like you can't listen. Some comment that Savannah just
said was that if someone was Savannah.
So I thank myself for coming prepared.
But yeah, that was kind of funny.
That's. Definitely funny.
I mean it's. It's something where.
If it ever happened I'd be like what?
I need pictures with you girl because you pulled it off.
(29:39):
I don't know how you managed to define old like.
How could it? How would it be in June?
I don't know. I don't know.
Maybe they they're carrying a Starbucks where he says
Savannah. Or like a Julie, like an
encrusted crown and some attitude a little.
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, packfor the pills and like a little
bit of fast, like, you know whatI mean?
Like whenever I think about someone being us, I'm just like.
(30:01):
I don't know. Maybe it would have to be some
abstract, but if I ever see it, I'm going to be blown away.
That's all I can tell you. I don't know how that would be.
I can't. And I love me.
Being me. And I love how you said that as
like a joke and you were literally laughing.
And I'm like must write that down to get back to that point.
Oh, my Lord, yeah. It'd be amazing.
(30:22):
I think that Savannah has allowed me the confidence to go
beyond and be like, I can beat other feminine characters
because these are the charactersthat I grew up with.
These are the characters that when I was reading my comic
books and watching my 80s shows and living my life and seeing
Elfire, a mistress of the Dark back when she was doing.
Not only her midnight horror show, but also becoming like an
(30:47):
icon in advertising where she's doing Bud Light, the Elvira cut
out at the grocery store during Halloween season.
And so these were the charactersI was drawn to, whether because
of Savannah or because they were, I don't know, overly
curvaceously drawn or like an elevated sex symbol, like an
(31:08):
Elvira where she's very voluptuous and very out there
and Uber femme, not only in her look, but like fierce in her
attitude. There's a lot of people like
that that I really admired that were my templates.
They were like the the ones thatI wanted to be like.
The characteristics, the essenceof So even thinking about
(31:32):
Savannah as a superstar, what would that Savannah or what
would that Julie look like? I can come up with it pretty
quickly in my head. And yes, she'd still have red
hair and amazing tits. Listen, listen.
It's taking those insecurities to rowing them out and creating
(31:56):
this over the top, totally exaggerated example of feminine
power, right? And so why wouldn't you call
upon that whenever you're feeling shy to get out of your
car if that was something that you wanted to work on, for
example, to integrate more into your life?
I think it can be a very magicaltool, for lack of a better word,
(32:17):
in terms of someone who is really involved in the Comic Con
scene, and I want to say just a crossdresser.
I'm not going to say just a crossdresser, but someone who is
approaching their crossdressing in a more visible way, For
example. Sometimes we need to call upon
(32:39):
that not only wise part of ourselves, but that protective
part of ourselves, that wise part of ourselves, that
unstoppable, unbeatable force. And maybe sometimes we have to
add a little magic. What would be our magic?
And I feel like when I'm talkingabout this, I'm picturing myself
as an early childhood educator again.
Again, did you hear that? And I'm talking to a child who's
(33:03):
dealing with a bully, maybe. What would be your magical power
that you'd have to fight off that bully?
Would it be, you know, a lightning rod?
Would it be strength for you just be able to lift the world
and then throw that bully acrossthe room?
Like what would it be a lot of that language when it comes to
superhero play or This is why incollege I was pro action figures
(33:27):
for kids and the literally the whole rest of the class was
like, they bring out aggressive,aggressive behavior.
They were very anti. But for me, it brought the child
strength and self esteem and theidea that their human form can
also be quite powerful. I.
Like that? All that is very applicable to
(33:48):
what we're talking about today in terms of how can we utilize
that superpower, that superhuman, and bring it into
our femininity or bring it into our humanity, who we are as
people every day. Yeah, wow.
I love that. That's awesome.
I never thought about it becoming something more powerful
and it was always paying homage to characters I admired or actor
(34:12):
actresses that embody characterson television and movies and
just trying to do the best I could to get the look down.
Even I couldn't get the curves down or the weight a certain
way, I knew that I was going to be as bang on as possible about
it in my own way, and that was going to be good enough or just
right for me. It's so funny.
(34:32):
It's like movies, music, action figures, cartoons are all
pointed at as like being a negative influence.
And I love how you took action figures that the kids can take
that and play and puppet the characters and try to embody
that character with what they'd like to have as wish fulfillment
in a positive way. So I love that.
I did of course to do a little bit of research.
(34:55):
So on this there's a couple things.
So cross dressing, dressing as agender different from one's
assigned sex obviously can be for self-expression, comfort,
performance, personal identity, and not necessarily tied to
fandom or specific characters. Whereas cosplaying, dressing as
a fictional character from anime, games, Louise, etcetera
can involve gender bending. When a character's genders
(35:17):
change, that's what that means. Motivated by creativity, fandom,
and performance. So I also asked, well, what's
the intersectionality? Crossplay when a cosplayer
portrays a character of a different gender.
Drag cosplay. When elements of drag
performance mixed with cosplay. Gender bent.
Cosplay. Taking a character and
intentionally redesigning them as another gender, both as art
(35:40):
and performance. Both involve transformation,
creativity and presentation. And the last is freedom of
gender expression. Both challenge traditional
gender norms in different ways. And the one thing I remember, I
went early to Madison Square Garden, which was one of the
venues for the New York Comic Con, and all of a sudden there's
(36:00):
a sea of Doctor Who's. A sea of them.
Yeah. I mean, I was just like, what
is, Am I in the wrong line? What is happening here?
And it wasn't the wrong. Doctor Who, Doctor Who?
Is a science fiction series out of Britain for.
So what were they wearing? Depends on which doctor you are.
Now we're going to get into the geekdom because there are
several dozen Doctors and each Doctor is a different actor and
(36:24):
each is not the same character. They're all quote UN quote the
Doctor, but they bring their ownpersonality, their own persona,
their own name, identity to the character.
So one of them wears a multi colored jacket, but like a multi
colored coat of many colors. One is typically like in a long
coat that has a multi colored striped scarf.
(36:45):
So all of a sudden I'm seeing all these people just show up
knowing who they they are DoctorWho in different homages in
different eras. No, like, Oh my God, what is
this? And a lot of women, a lot of
girls dress as the male doctor because up until three years ago
there was never a female doctor.So these are people who love
Doctor Who and they want to playthe doctor.
(37:07):
And so they just play the doctorthey love best.
And it was amazing. It really was so cool to see.
And it that got me thinking about the cross play of it all,
where this is a very masculine, never before had a female played
the role in 30 some years. And I think it's way more than
30 some years. Let me check that.
OK. Yeah, the Doctor Who started in
(37:28):
1963, and it it went for a while, then took a long, long
hiatus, and then it was brought back, not as a reboot, but the
new Doctor. So even though there's been 14
seasons of it, every season was its own Doctor.
So to see these kids watching a show from the 1960s and on,
(37:48):
Amazing. Yeah.
That really prompted me to say, oh, like, they are cross
playing, but I don't think they see it as cross playing.
They just see it as I want to bethe Doctor.
I want to be the 7th Doctor. I want to be the 12th Doctor.
And these are not people with gender diversity necessarily.
They're just people loving what they're doing and paying homage
and doing the best they can and having fun with it.
(38:09):
Yeah, it's all very, very interesting.
Just the idea of this topic about feminine persona versus
femininity, and I definitely don't want our listeners to come
away with the idea that they have to change calling it a
feminine persona because many ofthe people who call their
feminine self their female persona, they also in this
(38:33):
tickles made it O end talk abouttheir male side as their male
persona. Not all, but many.
And I do think it is a very wonderful way to understand all
of this in a world with when it comes to the cross dressing
experience, you're just graspingat straws in terms of
(38:54):
understanding and how it relatesto you and how did I get here?
How did I get here? This is all so confusing.
So if your identity, if you identify with the terms feminine
persona, male persona, you do you Boo Boo, you go girl, we see
you, we love you. That's how I still understand
(39:14):
it, unless someone is telling medifferently as it applies to
them, of course, right. I think this episode is really
special. I think that a lot of ways in
which our feminine self comes tobe is in relationship to so many
different influences, so many different.
(39:35):
And I think that having a clear feminine persona through the
eyes of a Comic Con character isvery powerful.
It's very powerful. And it's very applicable to your
cross dressing or female self, which I view is totally separate
from this kind of higher superhero version of yourself.
(39:58):
So thank you so much for this topic.
It taught me a lot. It allowed me to.
I got a lot of visuals as I'm listening.
I got a lot of. There's a lot of, like I said,
primary colors, a lot of sweet nerds, which can I say
something? If my mother taught me one
thing, she'd sing the song growing up.
They'll be like, love a nerd, love a nerd, love a nerd.
(40:19):
And she'd be like, they make thebest husbands, they make the
best fathers. It's so true.
You want to be with the nerd, OK, You just do.
They're the most sensitive. So I'm pro nerd.
Pro nerd. Okay, then you got a little
nasty nerds like Zuckerberg. That's just like, all right, I
(40:40):
liked you, you were powerful. Now I don't know what I think.
Okay, but I digress. I'm going.
I can see your eyeballs being like beep beep.
Beep. So let me get back on the road
with saying that this was a great episode.
We really hope that our listeners appreciated it as much
as we did. And I say we because you were
(41:01):
like glowing the entire time we were talking about this topic.
So I know you loved it, right? Yes, I have found myself in who
I am as a person with both Savannah over many, many years
of finding that voice, as well as embodying these characters I
have admired to channel their voice back to me.
(41:24):
So yeah, I both have been instrumental in the person I am
today. Yes.
So thank you for sharing, and sharing is caring.
And Speaking of sharing, everyone feel free to spread the
word of the gospel. I mean, as it applies to the Fox
(41:45):
in the Phoenix podcast, please share, Please, like, please,
please talk about us behind our backs whenevs you want.
And we will continue to create new content and show up for you
every Sunday. And a new episode drops every
Wednesday. And we love you so much and
(42:09):
blah, blah blah blah blah blah, blah.
Bye for now. Until next time, you can find me
on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing
and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK and to learn more, go to my website
(42:31):
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hanger or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhanger.com.
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
(42:56):
Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, understanding
the feminine cross dressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hey, Julie. Hi, Savannah.
How are you? I'm good, I'm good, you know,
just living the dream. I said yes.
Am I just back from Keystone y'all?
(00:50):
Thanks. Thanks to everyone that I got to
catch up with and meet. Too many people to rattle off
during this conversation, but you had a great time as always.
It's amazing, but it's always very exhausting travelling,
driving back and forth. I had a very good time.
So 2 trips in the month of March.
(01:11):
The 1st was business trip at thestart of the month, then the
trip to Keystone for the end of the month.
So yeah, I'm a little tired. Little tired.
Well, you look gorgeous. Well, you are so, so kind and
you look so much better this week because last week we were
talking about your chemise lace discoloration Rashi on your
(01:32):
chest. You look, Leo, so much better.
Yeah, last week you had mistakenmy cortisone cream for a lovely
lace overlay. I think we're going to start
rebranding it as Chantilly Cortisone, yeah.
Chantilly that's. Hilarious.
You're feeling and looking better as well.
You're always gorgeous, but justsometimes we have a little
(01:52):
blemishing here and there that we can't control.
But what's going on in your life?
Let's see, I mean, I want to saynot much, but it's almost like
everything is happening. Like it's like everything is
happening in terms of being ableto just honor and celebrate Fox
and Hanger. I put out my nine week
(02:12):
feminization program, which is going amazing.
It really gives me a time and a chance to really connect with
clients over a nine week period of time, starting from the
inside and working our way out. It's been phenomenal and amazing
and so inspiring. And I don't know, it's like when
you write that book and you sendit out into the world and then
(02:37):
it is up to the world to find you and process it as they may
and have their own experience with it.
So yeah, I'm really delighted. When I did my individual
coaching, it was tricky because I had a different schedule,
different than I have right now,and I couldn't work with that
many individuals because of the time difference with my clients
(03:01):
and myself and because of a bunch of different reasons,
mainly my schedule. And now it has allowed me to
just open up and have a chance to meet with clients and just
have this experience with them over 9 weeks rather than maybe
someone booking with me once andthen four months later another
time. It it really allows them to have
(03:23):
that commitment to their femininity and it just, I don't
know, it's very inspiring. So if anyone listening would
like to approach their femininity with a more
integrated approach beyond just the physical, although the
physical and the presentation, that's all part of it.
If anyone's looking for a deeperway to acknowledge and honor
(03:46):
that feminine part of themselves, then please go to
Fox and Hanger and check out my new offering.
And it is a love letter between everything I've done at Fox and
Hanger and all the wisdom I haveon this podcast, and I'm just
really excited. So yeah, that's not a shameless
plug. That was just a plug that just
came down. I was going to tell you about
(04:06):
the wedding shower I had to go to this weekend, but it just
came to be. So yes, everything is going
great. I am super proud of you and
excited for you with this new venture.
I know it's been a long time ready to bloom and now you just
had the the means and the availability to get it done.
As with many of us, as we all know, sometimes life gets in the
(04:29):
way of the things you're passionate about and you just
keep holding on to the thing until it's ready until it just
bursts forth like a alien bursting forth out of your
chest. Like from like an aliens.
Maybe I should do a T-shirt where an alien bursting from the
chest but with rainbow shooting out of it.
Wait. And I just want to say before we
(04:49):
we move on and maybe get into what we're here to discuss today
is the fact that I am still doing the look books.
Kate and I are thriving in that area.
And so please don't be a stranger.
No, never. Oh, before we go on, I have to
also convey very important news.I'm not sure if you know, I was
(05:11):
fussing around with ChatGPT alsoon the heels of doing some
podcast stuff. And I'm like, oh, and I had it
happen before. I actually used ChatGPT to find
something for me because sometimes when you go looking
for data, it's really hard to know where to go.
So just look at all the compileddata it can come across on the
interwebs. It's supposed to be awesome.
(05:31):
So I want I wanted to read to you, I said what is the current
ranking based on subscribers anddownloads for the Fox and the
Phoenix Podcast? Chet GPT said.
As of February 2025, the Fox andthe Phoenix Podcast has achieved
notable recognition within its niche.
It is ranked among the top 5% ofpodcasts globally over 3.4
(05:55):
million podcasts as a top 5%. That's amazing.
And on Apple podcast, it holds a4.6 on A5 rating.
Additionally, it has been featured as a leading podcast in
feed spots. List of 10 best cross dressing
podcasts. Who do we have to thank?
(06:15):
Our listeners and listeners who share the podcast and people who
talk about the podcast and give it a wider reach.
It isn't us. You talk about putting the
advertising or the feelers out in the world for your new
program. And if you build it, they will
come. And we've built this.
And it has been our listeners that have spread the word far
(06:36):
and wide, way beyond us. Because I'm only going to listen
to a podcast that somebody recommends it to me typically.
And I know others may be like that.
So those of you in the community, thank you, thank you,
thank you, thank you so much formaking us the best cross
dressing podcast #1 according toFeed spot.
And to be the top 5%, Yeah, we're not pulling in Joe Rogan
(06:59):
numbers, but to be the top 5% ofall podcast is just mind blowing
to me. So thank you to everyone.
Yes, thank you to everyone. And we also want to give a
little shout out to all those listeners that have been with us
from the beginning. To all those listeners who have
(07:21):
who are hopped in somewhere in the middle, we love you.
And to all those listeners who are new to our podcast, welcome.
We are thriving and beautiful community.
And another shout out to those individuals who have been
inspired by our podcast enough to create their own thing to
say, hey, they can do it, why can't we?
(07:42):
We have some individuals who have written books and some who
have created their own podcast and we just want to say yes.
And we see you and we love you and we wish you so much love
moving forward. This is a collaborative effort.
In my mind we have moved from the fringe to somewhere else,
but that of course is in my mindand we are effing amazing.
(08:09):
We are effing amazing. Yeah, people who have gone
beyond us and created their own things.
Yes, it's quite because when I was writing, before I wrote my
first book, one of my Co workerswas saying, wow, my husband's
writing a book and he's going topublish it on Amazon.
I'm like, what? I can't do.
So I was thinking, it's like, you know, Savannah can make a
podcast. I absolutely can.
(08:30):
Yes. Trust me, it is a labor of love.
It is lots of work. We love doing it.
We love being here every week and let's run hiatus and just
bringing it. And I love bringing it.
I love coming up with new thingsto talk about or revisiting old
things and expanding upon it. And I love that people have
taken our work or as taking our podcast as a jump point to
(08:54):
create something even more vibrant and more amazing within
their own journey. Yes, me too.
Yeah, but and also. And furthermore and.
Furthermore, let's get into our topic today.
We have spoken about this in thepast, maybe not as its own
episode, but because I am very familiar with both of these
(09:17):
entities. I want to talk about the
intersectionality of cross dressing, male, female cross
dressing, and cosplay. And the reason why I bring it up
because one, I do both and two, one of the things I was asked
several years ago was, oh, so Savannah's cosplay.
(09:42):
I said, huh, is it Savannah thatmakes me cosplay and crossplay
or is it Chuck? Because I'm not being Savannah
dressed as somebody, I'm being the character to completion,
whether it's a fiber or black cat or whoever it is I'm
embodying. And I'm not thinking to myself,
(10:03):
it's Savannah who's doing this work.
Right. But it doesn't discount the fact
that it might be Savannah's influence that I like to cross
play, which means biologically male but typically doing female
characters. And we have many, many people
who cause play and cross play that do female to male
(10:23):
characters or gender bending or taking typically masculine or
feminine characters and spinningit to the opposite gender.
I mean, that happens a lot. So yeah, the intersectionality
of where those things happen andwhere the cross dressing stops
in the cosplay and begins when people stop being polite and
start being real. Nice, Nice.
(10:45):
Yeah. It's, it's so interesting
because when you threw this topic out for me, one of the
things you said is a feminine persona versus the art of
femininity. And when thinking about you
cosplaying in a feminine form, it feels to me like Chuck is
(11:06):
dressing up in a feminine way. And Chuck is expressing this
particular character that is within the Marvel Universe, that
is within this powder puff arena, that is paying homage to
someone that is beloved by little boys with comic books
(11:28):
everywhere, that is known on a larger Marvel scale with this
totally separate community. Have you gone with the muscles
in a male way for cosplaying? Yes, you have.
So for me, if I don't see it as Savannah anywhere, I just don't.
I I don't get that sense. You don't look the same.
(11:51):
It's not like when I see you alldressed up and all dolled up.
I don't see, Oh, there's Savannah.
No, I'm like, there's Chuck's eyeballs.
It's more of Chuck putting on a costume and expressing this
particular entity that is already beloved by all of its
followers. OK, so that's one thing.
(12:11):
And the second thing I want to say is when you said the words
feminine persona versus the art of femininity, those sound very
separate when typed to me right now.
But when I think about feminine persona versus the art of
femininity, when I read this, when I read this originally in
our messaging as we're planning for today's episode, it reminded
(12:34):
me of the early days of my Fox and hanger career, the early
days of our podcast where I verymuch would meet people where
they're at when it comes to their and I'm using quotes
feminine persona. I definitely metabolized it or
understood it that once feminineside was their feminine persona.
(12:59):
When I understood that or that reality locked in, in terms of
my own understanding, it definitely came from the
community. It wasn't something that I just
decided on my own or this means this.
It definitely was something thatwhat I learned from the
community that this is a way that they understand that
(13:22):
feminine part of themselves, they call it, it's their female
persona. And as I've learned more, met
more people and the world has evolved, and your understanding
of yourself in terms of being dual gender and other people
being like, oh, that fits for me.
It definitely changed a little bit.
(13:44):
So when I viewed your idea for this topic, I thought about the
past me and how I viewed that idea of feminine persona and how
I view it now. And it was fascinating because
it showed my growth and at the same time, I'm also still
learning and understanding. I still don't know if it's black
or white, but definitely a Gray area that people may still
(14:05):
identify their feminine self as their feminine persona because
that is a part of them, that it's a side of them and and
persona is how they understand it.
And I agree with what you said also between between the past
Savannah and the current Savannah, I don't know if I've
told you this, but whenever it went to my first New York Comic
(14:26):
Con, I didn't dress as a character.
I just wanted to go because I was a comic fan and I was a
Walking Dead fan and I want to go do all the things.
And I think I went the next yearthe same way.
I don't think I dressed. I don't think I came up with the
character. But as I started seeing more and
more cosplayers. Now mind you, Savannah's been
around for decades prior to this, but cosplay was not
(14:50):
something I felt I could be successful at, and I didn't feel
like I was a cosplayer when I thought of cosplay.
And back then, it was like people who spend half the years
sewing their own clothes and creating their own characters
and showing up in a mass that way.
And they're, like you said, paying homage to that character
because they're it's so beloved as its own entity, as its own
(15:12):
character, that I want to now take it and pay homage to it
through presentation. For me, as a cosplay, I could
never cosplay. That just sounds absurd.
But then year three, I'm going to do Miss Marvel in her most
skimpy outfit. Yeah, that'll work.
Yeah. With thigh high boots and the
gloves going up with the arms and just basically in a bathing
(15:33):
suit with like sash. And I loved it.
I love trying to get it put together.
I am not the seamstress. I am not somebody who's crafty.
So I bought all the pieces that Judy helped me get, the emblem
affixed to the outfit, the wholebit.
And was I the best cosplayer ever?
No, of course not. And I'm that's not being self
(15:55):
sabotaging, that's me being no. Trust me, as a man trying to be
the female character, I think I did OK, but it was nowhere near
elevating winning prizes and that's fine.
That being said, I loved it. I love that people stop to take
pictures with me because they love the character.
I. Don't know who I am.
They're like, Oh my God, is Savannah Hawk dressed as Miss
(16:16):
Marble? No, they don't care.
They just saw the character thatthey love, like you said.
Or that's a man wearing tits at a it wasn't that big, wasn't
that serious. It was just like, that's that
character. And from what I get a sense in
these conventions, gender is, you know, it's however you show
up, it's that character. Just not to hopefully I don't
(16:38):
offend you with this. But if you go to Disney and you
see Mickey, Pluto, Goofy, not looking at gender, like I wonder
who is Mickey really Mickey? Or is there some tits under the
it's not like that. It's just you see the character
for the character, I'm sure. And I guess I could just ask you
if the fact that you were able to lean into the feminine in
(17:01):
this over the top kind of way did give your inner girl some
Nachus some good feelings. Yeah.
Yeah, Right. I mean, I'd be, you know, really
clueless to say that, oh, that didn't happen.
Let's focus on what really did. Yeah, that was terrified when I
again I'm living on Long Island going up to the elevated train
(17:22):
platform station as this and four inch heels like by myself
and 7:00 AM or 8:00 AM going terrified of what was going to
happen. Got on a train again, all of a
sudden you start seeing all the people that you know are going
to Comic Con. Slowly.
Slowly they like, come on to thestation platform.
I'll say, oh, I know they're going to Comic Con.
Oh, I know. Oh.
(17:43):
Thank God. Yeah, right.
Yeah. They're not necessarily dressed
in cosplay, but just dressed. They're like, yeah, you know,
they're going there because they're wearing.
So they wear T-shirts. So they're wearing something to
let you know that they're intentionally dressed in a
certain way. So all of a sudden, I felt like
I was in my crowd, in my element, the people in my
community, in the cosplay community.
(18:04):
Yeah. And I even had I had a guy who
was dressed as Wolverine with all the goofy puffy muscles, but
if the outfit was pink. And all of a sudden when we were
getting off the train at Penn Station, he was like, hey, you
want to hang out with us? We're going to the Comcon.
I'm like, oh, no, I'm meeting somebody here.
We're like going in together. But like they embraced me and
(18:27):
not because. Of what?
Was they do while I was a guy, most likely because obviously I
spoke to them. So I wasn't like, hey, but
that'd be great. So they knew I was a dude
dressed as Miss Marvel and they were embracing me like let's do
this together. We're all going the same place.
We love the same things. And for me, like you said, it
wasn't Savannah being Miss Marvel.
(18:49):
It was Chuck being Miss Marvel with the added oomph that
Savannah's there saying, hey, it's OK to cross play, to gender
bend because hey, you have me atyour side.
You know, you've got the feminine spark in you.
And I think if it wasn't for Savannah, I don't know if I
would venture into cross play. I think I probably would end up
(19:11):
staying Punisher or something. Just the fact that you just said
that quote, I mean, it was obvious that I was a dude
dressed like Miss Marvel. Like already you're outing the
fact of exactly what we're talking about.
This was Chuck taking on, let's just call it what it is for this
scenario of feminine persona versus the arts of femininity,
(19:33):
which when compared to Marvel, Ijust see a lot of primary
colors, you know, a lot of Zoom symbols and stuff like that.
A lot of a lot of nerds doing their nerdy, powerful thing not
to put down a compliment. OK.
Not to put down. Yeah.
And I'm not trying to disbar your experience of Savannah
(19:53):
being this Angel. Be like, you got this girl.
Because even as Savannah wholly and completely, you're not
really focused on the male voiceright now.
You're focused on honoring the femininity.
So it is very, very different for me.
I see the little Savannah and the fact that you're getting in
your needs mat and the fact thatyou got some tits and they look
(20:16):
great. So you're wearing tight.
Form fitting garb that is very in alignment with Savannah's
aesthetic when it comes to what you enjoy about the feminine.
Right? So Savannah and Chuck, they're
making a lovely cocktail with the Nerdology sauce.
Let me pour a little nerd sauce.And then you got a couple comic
(20:38):
books in there and a couple little Marvels.
By the way, I used to sneak intomy brother's room and he had a
whole binder of the the Marvel characters.
And I was very attracted to someof the bad boys.
And one of them smoked a cigarette.
That's all I'm going to say. It was very edgy.
And I don't know if his name wasBlaze.
Yeah, Blaze was Ghost Rider, butBlaze always had a cigarette
(21:01):
dangling out of the mouth. I'm just saying, OK, some of my
early heterosexual nods were very much sneaking into my
brother's room, checking out thebinder.
Be like, oh, that bad boy, right, That bad boy.
OK, so here we are. I'm going to throw the question
(21:22):
back on you. When you think about your
feminine persona in terms of cross play, Cos play, all that
stuff, and then you think about your femininity as a whole, your
feminine side, your feminine self as it relates to Savannah.
What are some of the similarities, even though we
(21:44):
could have just mentioned them, but what are some of the
similarities and what are some of the stark differences?
Interesting. I'm going to approach it this
way. I think one of the similarities
and differences is that what I am Savannah, Savannah is my
identity is holy me. I chose that I created, that I
made, that is my brand, quote UNquote.
(22:05):
These are the things I did to develop and evolve who Savannah
Hawk is what she likes, how she likes to present, what is her
range of femininity? What's her sweet spot of how she
wants to present? I mean, ironically, if you take
that, it's funny. I just think it's what it'd be
(22:26):
like if somebody else wanted to cosplay Savannah Hawk, right?
That'd be weird. I'd be amazing, but it would
also be weird to see myself likeexternally like that.
But if you think about if Savannah Hawk was a character
quote, UN quote, and then somebody wanted to embody in pay
homage to that character, that is really the same thing I as
(22:47):
Chuck am doing. If I want to pay homage to Black
Pat Delphira, mistress of the dark, Power Girl, Miss Marble,
all those are me wanting to havean an affinity and a love for
that character and then saying, you know what, I think that I
could pull that off, that I could pay homage in a way that I
would be proud of. And so it's very similar in that
(23:10):
way. I am paying homage to that
character. The way difference is, it's
somebody who's not me versus Savannah is me, and I think I
pay homage and give love to Savannah all the times I
present. As for I put as much effort and
kindness and grace into that presentation of my own feminine
(23:31):
identity as I do trying to perfect and be as on point as I
can be for the other characters that I play.
So that would definitely be bothsomething very similar and very
different. And I think the other difference
is just the fact that it is somebody who's established
outside of me, and I put it, I tell you what, I put months of
(23:52):
agonizing pressure on myself, yet I still procrastinate until
a month before the event to be like, oh, I need all this stuff
for Elvira or I need all this stuff for The Powerpuff Girls.
Agonize over how I'm going to doit, and then finally piece it
together last second, probably because I don't know if I'm
going to be able to pull it off or not.
But last second, if I get together after trial and error
(24:14):
and then I'm very happy with theresults.
Whereas Savannah over all those years of trial and error, now
she's very natural to me. Now she is if I need to get up
and I shave and I'm doing the thing, it's it's a 90 minute
thing. I got a closet full of clothes
and a case full of makeup and a bunch of different wigs and like
mix and match and it's not a setpattern, but it's OK.
(24:37):
That's what I need to do with second nature versus Oh no, I
need to be this brand new character off the Marvel
Universe. Oh my God, what am I going to
do? And it's just like that anxiety
of getting it right. Whereas Savannah, I'm past that
point. And I think that while I may
feel Blase or I feel fat this week or I'm not up to it, at the
(24:57):
very least, I know that push come to shove, it's second
nature and mechanic. It's almost muscle memory to
just put on Savannah's face and and go do the thing.
And so for something like Keystone, that wasn't something
that you, I don't know, was it something you even agonized when
it comes to things like a gala or, you know, really being like,
(25:18):
what is the dress I'm going to wear?
Or because you've done it so many times, you're like, that is
not something I'm going to stress about.
I have so many things to stress about.
That is not something it's old hat to me.
It might have been a stress and I'm just making this up.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. It might have been a stress to
me in the past, but I know what looks good.
I know what fits. I'm going to just, I mean, is
(25:39):
that you're giving me the thumbsup.
So yeah. Absolutely, because I remember
my first Keystone one, I was freaking out about how it would
be received. What's going on?
Anytime you go into a new situation, you have no idea what
the template is. Even I was like, I understand
how the conference works but younever know.
Like different personalities andhow it all comes about.
But that first year I was like, I'm wearing this big gorgeous
gown at the gala with a train and it's 40 lbs and it's like I
(26:03):
had all these heady ideas of what was necessary and what
would the thing I wanted to do. Isn't there a range like, like
you can come like from what you've told me, like you can
come in anything from what you were during that day to freaking
the gala at the Met. Met Gala.
Yeah, a lot of. People do that.
That Saturday gala is the just elevated a bit.
(26:25):
Right. A lot.
For a little bit, I wear jeans this morning during the
workshops and that's all I'm going to wear.
Coming to know, usually people kind of judge up a little at
least, but that first year I waslike, I need to be like, I'm
going to the Met Gala. And then as years go on, I
realize, yeah, no, I don't need.I'm good.
I've done it. I had the experience.
(26:46):
And now I'm going for more comfort, but still classy.
I'm still elevated, but I'm not putting, like you said, that
much pressure on myself anymore,right?
You do the thing. And even during the day, it used
to be like, I need to be dressesand this and that all day, every
day. And I was I can do a little more
not yoga pants comfort. Like this looks good.
I already know it. I rather focus my anxiety
(27:09):
somewhere else. Okay, so, so that's one thing I
want to say. Also, I wanted to say got my
notepad. Look at this, look at this.
It's not just a little sticky note.
It's an actual spiral pad of paper.
So I, I want to say something about something you said a few
beats back where you said, you know, be so kind of cool if
(27:30):
someone was walking around like Savannah is their female
persona. And like, first of all, I just
want to say I know that stealingor modeling or whatever is or
stealing an outfit or whatever is like the greatest form of
flattery. But I also want to say when you
said that it like put Savannah into this character realm for
me, you know, and it'll be great.
(27:52):
Don't get me wrong. I'm sure you'd love to have a
comic book that's Savannah related.
I'm sure your nerdy brain would just combust with the two worlds
and you're like, this is fuckingamazing.
But like, it's also a little freaky.
Let's say you're at Keystone andyou were sitting and you, I
don't know. I don't know what I imagine you
doing. What, handing out books or
kissing babies? I don't freaking know what you
(28:13):
do there and then walking acrossyou, you see a shift dress with
like specific. I don't even know what it would
look like to be exactly you because you are you.
It's not like you have enough like Iris Apfel, the famous
fashionista of the dye that's motto was not minimalism, but
maximalism. And she had the dark circular
glasses and the red lips and thegiant necklaces.
(28:35):
I mean, that is something that if I showed up at the fashion
convention or Halloween and was like, wow, you did an iris.
Right, right, right. I.
Mean not to say you're the girl next door, but you're the girl
next door. So how cool it would be for
someone to quote? Do you not literally do you like
sexually, but try to pull off a Savannah?
(28:56):
I don't know. I feel like there's enough
people in the world that have been influenced by you and have
gone to Starbucks and was like, if Savannah can do it, I can.
I'm going to just pretend I'm Savannah in the world, but like
using that as an eternal thing. I don't know.
I mean, I'm very proud of the fact that I brought a big spiral
notebook. So I didn't have that ADD fly
(29:18):
being like you can't listen. Some comment that Savannah just
said was that if someone was Savannah.
So I thank myself for coming prepared.
But yeah, that was kind of funny.
That's. Definitely funny.
I mean it's. It's something where.
If it ever happened I'd be like what?
I need pictures with you girl because you pulled it off.
(29:39):
I don't know how you managed to define old like.
How could it? How would it be in June?
I don't know. I don't know.
Maybe they they're carrying a Starbucks where he says
Savannah. Or like a Julie, like an
encrusted crown and some attitude a little.
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, packfor the pills and like a little
bit of fast, like, you know whatI mean?
Like whenever I think about someone being us, I'm just like.
(30:01):
I don't know. Maybe it would have to be some
abstract, but if I ever see it, I'm going to be blown away.
That's all I can tell you. I don't know how that would be.
I can't. And I love me.
Being me. And I love how you said that as
like a joke and you were literally laughing.
And I'm like must write that down to get back to that point.
Oh, my Lord, yeah. It'd be amazing.
(30:22):
I think that Savannah has allowed me the confidence to go
beyond and be like, I can beat other feminine characters
because these are the charactersthat I grew up with.
These are the characters that when I was reading my comic
books and watching my 80s shows and living my life and seeing
Elfire, a mistress of the Dark back when she was doing.
Not only her midnight horror show, but also becoming like an
(30:47):
icon in advertising where she's doing Bud Light, the Elvira cut
out at the grocery store during Halloween season.
And so these were the charactersI was drawn to, whether because
of Savannah or because they were, I don't know, overly
curvaceously drawn or like an elevated sex symbol, like an
(31:08):
Elvira where she's very voluptuous and very out there
and Uber femme, not only in her look, but like fierce in her
attitude. There's a lot of people like
that that I really admired that were my templates.
They were like the the ones thatI wanted to be like.
The characteristics, the essenceof So even thinking about
(31:32):
Savannah as a superstar, what would that Savannah or what
would that Julie look like? I can come up with it pretty
quickly in my head. And yes, she'd still have red
hair and amazing tits. Listen, listen.
It's taking those insecurities to rowing them out and creating
(31:56):
this over the top, totally exaggerated example of feminine
power, right? And so why wouldn't you call
upon that whenever you're feeling shy to get out of your
car if that was something that you wanted to work on, for
example, to integrate more into your life?
I think it can be a very magicaltool, for lack of a better word,
(32:17):
in terms of someone who is really involved in the Comic Con
scene, and I want to say just a crossdresser.
I'm not going to say just a crossdresser, but someone who is
approaching their crossdressing in a more visible way, For
example. Sometimes we need to call upon
(32:39):
that not only wise part of ourselves, but that protective
part of ourselves, that wise part of ourselves, that
unstoppable, unbeatable force. And maybe sometimes we have to
add a little magic. What would be our magic?
And I feel like when I'm talkingabout this, I'm picturing myself
as an early childhood educator again.
Again, did you hear that? And I'm talking to a child who's
(33:03):
dealing with a bully, maybe. What would be your magical power
that you'd have to fight off that bully?
Would it be, you know, a lightning rod?
Would it be strength for you just be able to lift the world
and then throw that bully acrossthe room?
Like what would it be a lot of that language when it comes to
superhero play or This is why incollege I was pro action figures
(33:27):
for kids and the literally the whole rest of the class was
like, they bring out aggressive,aggressive behavior.
They were very anti. But for me, it brought the child
strength and self esteem and theidea that their human form can
also be quite powerful. I.
Like that? All that is very applicable to
(33:48):
what we're talking about today in terms of how can we utilize
that superpower, that superhuman, and bring it into
our femininity or bring it into our humanity, who we are as
people every day. Yeah, wow.
I love that. That's awesome.
I never thought about it becoming something more powerful
and it was always paying homage to characters I admired or actor
(34:12):
actresses that embody characterson television and movies and
just trying to do the best I could to get the look down.
Even I couldn't get the curves down or the weight a certain
way, I knew that I was going to be as bang on as possible about
it in my own way, and that was going to be good enough or just
right for me. It's so funny.
(34:32):
It's like movies, music, action figures, cartoons are all
pointed at as like being a negative influence.
And I love how you took action figures that the kids can take
that and play and puppet the characters and try to embody
that character with what they'd like to have as wish fulfillment
in a positive way. So I love that.
I did of course to do a little bit of research.
(34:55):
So on this there's a couple things.
So cross dressing, dressing as agender different from one's
assigned sex obviously can be for self-expression, comfort,
performance, personal identity, and not necessarily tied to
fandom or specific characters. Whereas cosplaying, dressing as
a fictional character from anime, games, Louise, etcetera
can involve gender bending. When a character's genders
(35:17):
change, that's what that means. Motivated by creativity, fandom,
and performance. So I also asked, well, what's
the intersectionality? Crossplay when a cosplayer
portrays a character of a different gender.
Drag cosplay. When elements of drag
performance mixed with cosplay. Gender bent.
Cosplay. Taking a character and
intentionally redesigning them as another gender, both as art
(35:40):
and performance. Both involve transformation,
creativity and presentation. And the last is freedom of
gender expression. Both challenge traditional
gender norms in different ways. And the one thing I remember, I
went early to Madison Square Garden, which was one of the
venues for the New York Comic Con, and all of a sudden there's
(36:00):
a sea of Doctor Who's. A sea of them.
Yeah. I mean, I was just like, what
is, Am I in the wrong line? What is happening here?
And it wasn't the wrong. Doctor Who, Doctor Who?
Is a science fiction series out of Britain for.
So what were they wearing? Depends on which doctor you are.
Now we're going to get into the geekdom because there are
several dozen Doctors and each Doctor is a different actor and
(36:24):
each is not the same character. They're all quote UN quote the
Doctor, but they bring their ownpersonality, their own persona,
their own name, identity to the character.
So one of them wears a multi colored jacket, but like a multi
colored coat of many colors. One is typically like in a long
coat that has a multi colored striped scarf.
(36:45):
So all of a sudden I'm seeing all these people just show up
knowing who they they are DoctorWho in different homages in
different eras. No, like, Oh my God, what is
this? And a lot of women, a lot of
girls dress as the male doctor because up until three years ago
there was never a female doctor.So these are people who love
Doctor Who and they want to playthe doctor.
(37:07):
And so they just play the doctorthey love best.
And it was amazing. It really was so cool to see.
And it that got me thinking about the cross play of it all,
where this is a very masculine, never before had a female played
the role in 30 some years. And I think it's way more than
30 some years. Let me check that.
OK. Yeah, the Doctor Who started in
(37:28):
1963, and it it went for a while, then took a long, long
hiatus, and then it was brought back, not as a reboot, but the
new Doctor. So even though there's been 14
seasons of it, every season was its own Doctor.
So to see these kids watching a show from the 1960s and on,
(37:48):
Amazing. Yeah.
That really prompted me to say, oh, like, they are cross
playing, but I don't think they see it as cross playing.
They just see it as I want to bethe Doctor.
I want to be the 7th Doctor. I want to be the 12th Doctor.
And these are not people with gender diversity necessarily.
They're just people loving what they're doing and paying homage
and doing the best they can and having fun with it.
(38:09):
Yeah, it's all very, very interesting.
Just the idea of this topic about feminine persona versus
femininity, and I definitely don't want our listeners to come
away with the idea that they have to change calling it a
feminine persona because many ofthe people who call their
feminine self their female persona, they also in this
(38:33):
tickles made it O end talk abouttheir male side as their male
persona. Not all, but many.
And I do think it is a very wonderful way to understand all
of this in a world with when it comes to the cross dressing
experience, you're just graspingat straws in terms of
(38:54):
understanding and how it relatesto you and how did I get here?
How did I get here? This is all so confusing.
So if your identity, if you identify with the terms feminine
persona, male persona, you do you Boo Boo, you go girl, we see
you, we love you. That's how I still understand
(39:14):
it, unless someone is telling medifferently as it applies to
them, of course, right. I think this episode is really
special. I think that a lot of ways in
which our feminine self comes tobe is in relationship to so many
different influences, so many different.
(39:35):
And I think that having a clear feminine persona through the
eyes of a Comic Con character isvery powerful.
It's very powerful. And it's very applicable to your
cross dressing or female self, which I view is totally separate
from this kind of higher superhero version of yourself.
(39:58):
So thank you so much for this topic.
It taught me a lot. It allowed me to.
I got a lot of visuals as I'm listening.
I got a lot of. There's a lot of, like I said,
primary colors, a lot of sweet nerds, which can I say
something? If my mother taught me one
thing, she'd sing the song growing up.
They'll be like, love a nerd, love a nerd, love a nerd.
(40:19):
And she'd be like, they make thebest husbands, they make the
best fathers. It's so true.
You want to be with the nerd, OK, You just do.
They're the most sensitive. So I'm pro nerd.
Pro nerd. Okay, then you got a little
nasty nerds like Zuckerberg. That's just like, all right, I
(40:40):
liked you, you were powerful. Now I don't know what I think.
Okay, but I digress. I'm going.
I can see your eyeballs being like beep beep.
Beep. So let me get back on the road
with saying that this was a great episode.
We really hope that our listeners appreciated it as much
as we did. And I say we because you were
(41:01):
like glowing the entire time we were talking about this topic.
So I know you loved it, right? Yes, I have found myself in who
I am as a person with both Savannah over many, many years
of finding that voice, as well as embodying these characters I
have admired to channel their voice back to me.
(41:24):
So yeah, I both have been instrumental in the person I am
today. Yes.
So thank you for sharing, and sharing is caring.
And Speaking of sharing, everyone feel free to spread the
word of the gospel. I mean, as it applies to the Fox
(41:45):
in the Phoenix podcast, please share, Please, like, please,
please talk about us behind our backs whenevs you want.
And we will continue to create new content and show up for you
every Sunday. And a new episode drops every
Wednesday. And we love you so much and
(42:09):
blah, blah blah blah blah blah, blah.
Bye for now. Until next time, you can find me
on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing
and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK and to learn more, go to my website
(42:31):
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hanger or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhanger.com.
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
(42:56):
Yes, nailed it.
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