April 2, 2025 • 42 mins
In this episode, Julie asks Savannah to chat about body language for the male-to-female gender expansive person. From the way we walk and talk to the way we eat and use our hands, adopting and perfecting a feminine demeanor in public is a critical component for so many of us. Also, Julie and Savannah talk about generational feminine stereotypes ands how to emulate the established feminine mannerisms that feel most right to the individual.
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
cross dressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Hello Miss Julie, you look very
wonderful today with your hair and your outfit and your
mannequin with all the butterflies beside you do.
(00:51):
You see that recreated the website.
Yeah, it looks very cool. I love it.
Annie Ho, like you're saying this now, but if you saw me 10
minutes ago, oh, by ten, I mean four, I was a couple minutes
late, which I know you love. She doesn't love it.
She doesn't. I had raccoon eyes from residue
(01:11):
of mascara because last night I had an event.
We had a wedding of a family. Oh, that.
Was a rave. And so, my dear friends, do you
all notice, ladies, that when you wash your face and cleanse
all the makeup off and then it depends on the situation, right?
You may be in a high stakes situation where you cannot
(01:32):
reveal any residue. But mascaras is hard to get off,
right? So when I woke up this morning,
I just had mascara residue, an eyeliner residue just
underneath. So I thought I'd clean up for
you. So thank you for saying that.
I look refreshed. Look at these nails.
They look amazing. I love them, I love them.
(01:55):
Pointy French. It's like I'm a classy lady, but
I can claw you down. I love it.
Yeah, they're pretty. And they're fake.
They're acrylic. Right.
They press on or did you have them done?
I had them done OK got it and I can't really function with them
like I can't pick up items. Do you remember from your nails
(02:17):
days? Did you have nail days?
It was always the last thing I did because I couldn't put
contacts in, I couldn't do my makeup, I couldn't get my
clothes on without them popping off.
They were always the last thing.And after a while, it's just
like, I ain't got tired for that.
I know, I mean they look so gorge like look my hands are
just so old and Bony but with the nails they look long and
(02:40):
luxurious. They do, they look amazing.
I love it. Any who how are you?
I am also feeling the Bony and luxurious.
Wait, that's not right I decided.
I decided to do a thing today and I was on Amazon.
I was getting stuff ready for the Keystone trip which is now
passed. I had bought those little
extensions and they were little colored extensions and put in my
(03:01):
hair and I'd never done it before.
And today was the first day I went out and put two.
I got 18 of them, but I put 2 inmy hair, in my wig, and I'm just
very happy with the results. It blends in just these little
streaks of, let's just call it red, just some streaks of red in
my already Auburn hair. And so I went out today and I've
(03:22):
got some compliments. Also, I will tell you, I'm
getting back in the swing of things with Keystone and
everything. Prior to that, it was a period
of time where I was just like, Idon't want to be Savannah.
I'm going to just do a little self preservation, whether
intentionally or unintentionally, whether excuses
or reality or fiction. I finally started to say, you
know what, I need to get my shittogether.
(03:43):
I need to get out there a littlebit more again and be that
person that you know, I intendedto be.
And as a result, I got to see myfavorite barista, Bella Bella
Ella, Ella. And I saw her last week.
She's like, I'm here Sunday and I'm like, I'm going to come in
all dazzly. So I made the promise out loud
to her and myself to give me, listen, you made a promise.
(04:06):
So if you ain't feeling 100%, you commit.
So I committed and I didn't. And then as I'm leaving and
telling Bella, see her later, well suddenly another bracer
comes up and she's got braided here, little like side braids.
She's got those like glitter. Screens.
Going through it, yeah, the foil.
And she's like, hi, I'm Jenniferand I just want to come over and
say hi to you. And I'm like, Oh my God, that's
(04:26):
so sweet. So I said, and I did these
extensions for you. And so we had a little moment.
So it just was one of those things were elevated my whole
day and made me reconnect with Savannah in in a little bit
different way versus just trudging through the day and
doing it to do it. So it made me very happy today.
So I'm coming to you with Atlanta Joy.
(04:48):
That is so great. And you look joyful.
There's something about that popof color close to your face that
just wow, looks great. Thank.
You. I'm just trying to be like you.
Oh, please. I mean, thank you.
You're welcome. I'm trying to be better in 2025
at taking compliments and not immediately serving them a shit
(05:09):
sandwich because I think I'm notdeserving.
So to that I say a thank you. I you're very welcome.
Yeah. It's like, no, I reject your
comments in compliments. It is so hard.
It is so hard to take a compliment, man.
I'll tell you. But anyway, so what's, what's
the checking tonight there, lady?
(05:29):
What's on the menu? What's?
On the menu. Wow.
On the menu is piping hot because today we are serving
body language. Body Audie, Audie.
And I'm talking about mannerisms.
I'm talking about posture. I'm talking about kicking it
back to the old school ladies ofetiquette.
(05:52):
You know where they made the ladies walk with books that's on
their heads, right? To get it trim and proper when
it comes to it's very interesting because I very much
am a character that rejects a lot of society norms and I like
to let it all hang out and I know a lot of my sis, women,
friends, we just kind of exist. We exist in this world.
(06:14):
We walk down the street. We don't really think about what
we do because it's been ingrained in US or we in terms
of body language, in terms of how we hold the glass, for
example, in terms of how little we take up walking down the
street. And it's all those kind of
subtle little. We don't think about it or we're
trying to undo it because it's been chiseled into us upon
(06:37):
generation and generation that we really want to examine when
it comes to male to female transformation, your
transformation could look, you could look as the cool kids say,
fish as hell. Your transformation could be so
you know, you could be passing. You could be fabulous, right?
And I'm, I'm mainly talking to the kind of later in life
(07:01):
crossdressers or trans women, you can look the part, but if
you're not embodying the clothes, if you're not embodying
the feminine experience, that alone can clock you.
That alone can leave you exposedin a way that you may not even
realize it. Talking about feminine body
(07:21):
language and movement is something that I really love to
do with my clients, especially clients who have transmission
later in life. They've been doing the same
movements when it comes to how they eat and how they walk and
how they sit for a very, very, very, very, very long time.
It's not so much for the youngergeneration that could pull off
(07:44):
maybe some more feminine vibes. And their parents were more open
to let them just be themselves, right?
And they came up into this worldas fabulous and yes, and just
doing all the feminine movementsbecause that was natural back in
the day. It was ingrained within our
within before I was born, I'm talking about my parents
(08:04):
generation. It was ingrained in terms of how
men and boys must conduct themselves in terms of the body
language. So when teaching someone
feminine body language, it's important to be aware of the
masculine body language that they just come to the table with
and be aware of kind of the differences between men and
(08:27):
women. For example, men tend to take up
a lot of space when they walk. They tend to walk hunchback and
just both legs side by side. Maybe there's one in front just
for movement's sake, but it's not elongated, it's wide if you
will. They tend to take up a lot of
space where women, biological women have been trained that,
(08:51):
oh, taking up space is not what I do.
I am trained that I must be seenand not heard, so I must walk
with as little space as possible, right?
So I may look model esque with one leg in front of the other
and I may look like I'm getting the memo.
And this is great. But if I bump into another woman
(09:14):
or if someone's in my way, we have a mutual apologizing that
happens. Oh, I apologize, oh, it's OK.
And just moving through space, just weary of our place on the
sidewalk, weary of our ability to make as little movement as
possible where men do the opposite.
That also comes down to what we're thinking about walking
(09:36):
through space. Now.
We're translating the larger male movements with the smaller
feminine movements where, you know, picking up a fork is much
more small and delicate are, youknow, grabbing it.
And yes, I'm stereotyping, but also stereotypes come from a
place. They have an origin, they have a
(09:56):
reason for existing that has been trained within us over
time. So for example, when I'm working
with someone, we start with the walk and how to adjust that.
Then we move down to smaller body movements when it comes to
the hands, when it comes to holding a bottled water, for
(10:16):
example, right, I naturally put my hand on the bottom of this
bottled water that I'm holding right now.
But maybe if someone was, you know, biologically born male,
they were much older, had this all trained and they have to
relearn some of that. Maybe approach it a little bit
lighter. Maybe be aware of putting that
(10:36):
hand on the bottom. Maybe be aware.
And as much as I'm a guzzler, right, I, I just guzzle that
water all the way to the bottom because this is who I am.
I'm a CIS woman in the world, right?
And someone who is unlearning all of the behaviors in their
body needs to then apply all of these little things.
Like, for example, take sips, right?
(10:58):
If a trans woman goes out into the world and they're guzzling
water, finishing the whole thing, they may be clocked,
possibly change it up, Take little sips from the water,
slowly put it down. Just all of these little body
language things that one now hasto think about, One now has to
train for almost one has to set a time to practice as if it was
(11:25):
a workout, exercise or a meditation.
For example, sometimes I give myclients assignments for just 15
minutes a night. Practice screeching way back in
your chair with your tushy back,your shoulders back, and just
sit on the couch. Everything long, just sit on the
couch. Notice when you're sitting on
the couch what you're doing withyour hands.
(11:47):
So all of this from head to toe is to be considerate.
Now I'm going to take a little break from my Ted talk about
body language because I want to know what you have to say and
your experience with this, because this is not only my
podcast, but it's also yours. Well, I appreciate the break
because I I was just going to keep writing notes until you're
finished. I need to guzzle my water down.
(12:09):
Please guzzle your water if I hold it by the neck, please, so
you can look more Manish. You talk about the training and
exercises and when I was youngerthere was Miss Vera School
dedicate that was always in the Village Voice and something I
was really interested in, like, oh, maybe I could go there and
(12:31):
learn some things. Never did.
Obviously. You've been.
When I was living in New York, it was a little bit pricey at
the time. I was up beyond me.
So what I, as somebody who did not have the benefit of those
teachers and mentors, I was relegated to using power of
observation, whether it be on the street, whether it be people
(12:52):
in the subway, whether it be actresses on screen, large and
small, and just looking and watching in mimicking or hoping
to mimic those quote UN quote, stereotypically female things I
wanted to emulate. Right.
And you talked about there's a reason why stereotypes are
stereotypes, because it's there.They exist because there's truth
(13:14):
to the stereotype, which I want to come back to stereotypes
later because I have a question for you.
But I wanted to rattle off some of the things that I learned by
watching and doing over my many,many decades.
The first is hands on knees, like palms down, either one on
top of the other or just on yourcrossed legs, whether the legs
(13:37):
are crossed at the knees or at the ankles.
I don't know if you know, as a natural woman, but me, sometimes
it's very hard for me to cross my legs at the knees.
There's this little thing in themiddle that tends to, I don't
know, get squished and hurts. And so a lot of people don't
even have the thigh strength to keep their legs pressed together
(13:58):
and crossed. So that's why I've gone with the
at the ankles and leaves a little more looseness to the
legs, even though your thighs tend to go together when to
cross at the ankles. But it's still it takes effort
like it takes like, it's almost like you need to take those
little thigh things at the gym to well.
That's something I want to just say it's safe to throw out.
(14:20):
It is safe to throw out 'cause Idon't know if it's the
musculature of the body or just the fact your body just doesn't
work that way. Most.
Of my clients who I work with onbody language and mannerisms are
something that I tend to do a lot in my field.
I tell them to let go of the oneleg over the other.
Just let it go cross that the ankles is great or leaning your
(14:43):
whole legs just to the side and crossing the angle.
It's enough, it's enough. But you said something that I
just want to come back to quickly and just validate the
shit out of it. And that's observation and
observing people when watching TV, try to notice what the
(15:05):
females on TV are doing. And as you're sitting there, you
know, assuming it's a safe time to do it, you may have to look
both ways or whatever your situation may be.
Just practice. What are they doing with their
legs? How are they touching their face
a lot when they talk? What are they doing with their
hands? I'm not saying that this has to
(15:25):
be yours, right? You may be someone that it just
feels like no matter how much you practice, your arms are too
long and trying to recreate the body type just isn't there to do
it. There's something to be said
about mirroring when it comes tocreating your femininity and
embodying it, so that was a great thing to bring up.
Observation is 1000% key to thisexperience that it's your
(15:50):
greatest teachers and. The fact that the the female
anatomy and the male anatomy aredifferent, therefore there are
things that even if you tried your best may not seem natural
to you. So I want to validate on that
point. The one thing I saw you do when
you're holding up that glass, you had your pinky out.
One of the things that I always somehow it just naturally
(16:12):
happened as Savannah, my pinky is always out with any sort of
thing in my hand beverage wise. So I thought it was funny that
you're doing it natural as well.And it was just something that I
don't know if I, because pinky is one of those like every time
you talk to, you have to have the pinky out.
I never observed that in the world.
They just seemed like the right thing to do.
So I did that today. As a matter of fact, because we
(16:33):
were coming into this topic, there was a couple things I
locked into my brain a little bit as I was walking from
Starbucks to my car. I have my backpack.
So one thing, the backpack, you sling it over the shoulder does
not feel very dainty at all. I should have maybe just held it
by the handle and had it lower to my side.
And I'm realizing as I'm focusing on the backpack, I
(16:54):
wasn't focusing on my walking. And so the tip I'll say is that
when you're walking, is that really necessary about the make
sure your foot is overlapping your other foot as you walk?
It's really for me about hip movement.
Is a. Focusing on the hip and the sway
of the hips a little bit more because again, men kind of
lumber and females kind of glide.
And so if you can focus on that,the hip action a little bit and
(17:17):
give that kind of rhythm, the rest of the body sometimes falls
into line with that. So that's one thing I focus on.
I also want to mention eating. You're talking about taking
smaller bites. The one thing that I learned,
because I do inhale food, Chuck inhales a steak like, but I
found that the one thing that always happened to me, I would
(17:38):
go to a meal at Savannah, come home, all my lipstick would be
gone because I'm eating. So what I think lies is it's
about taking smaller bites and it's about putting it on the
fork versus not it with your teeth.
And then instead of closing yourlips around food, you put the
food on the fork and get it behind your teeth and draw, draw
(18:00):
the fork out. That way you're not drawing all
the lipstick off your lips as a result.
So that was the one thing I learned just by trial and error.
I'm like, but I don't want to leave here and realize that all
my lipstick is gone. I want to make sure that stays.
And no matter how good your lipstick is, if you like dabbing
enough times with a napkin or you're eating food, it's going
(18:20):
to come off. And what else I wrote, Oh, you
said too, that long line. Imagine that you're a puppet and
you have a string coming up the top of your head and elongate
that line as if you're being pulled up by the head.
So the shoulders back, the chin forward for me, because I have
AI got a little thicker neck. So I like to push shoulders back
to the chin forward to give me alittle more hollow and swan
(18:42):
esque look. And that's not about movement
necessarily. It's just about again, that
posture. We are talking about the knees
on the ankles. We talked about the backpack.
That's all my little tips and tricks for the moment.
But what I wanted to ask you wasabout the stereotype.
Because I think a lot of times there are people that are such a
slave to the emulation of the female or male stereotype
(19:05):
opposite of their biology that Ithink we've become a slave to
it. And I think that I've seen many
cross dressing women who I got their legs wide open when
they're wearing skirts and dresses, which is definitely not
what I felt was appropriate. But for them, they were very
comfortable. They didn't think anything about
it. But for me, in my brain, I'm
(19:26):
like, oh, that's not cool. I do not endorse the way they're
actually right. It's just triggering for you.
It was true. Yeah, Yeah.
But. Who's right?
Is it regular? No, you need to be dainty.
Or is it just like whatever makes you call I?
Think that when we're thinking about femininity and really be
getting it right or embodying it, we realized that it's not
(19:49):
only the clothes. Now the clothes can help you
with everything. For example, I often will use a
crossbody bag, and that automatically helps people put
back their shoulders and elongate their posture.
It's like a tool. But you were just talking about
stereotypes. And shouldn't people be free to
just be their authentic self? And my answer is.
(20:13):
Yes and no. I guess for me, it's kind of
like you spent so long in the closet and then you're out with
your girlfriends that are all crossdressers and you just want
to be free to, to let your hair down and just do the thing and
eat so much that your lipstick falls off.
And yeah, yeah. Sisterhood.
I say go for it. You're with your crew, you're
(20:36):
with your path. You don't want to have to think.
You don't want to have to think.I think that's fine.
But trans women in the world, they have a disadvantage, they
have a disadvantage. So it is up to me in my job to
keep, keep my clients as safe aspossible, right.
So when it comes to, it's very interesting because at this
(21:00):
wedding I was at, I was telling this person about the topic
today and they brought up that same question when it comes to
stereotypes. Well, shouldn't you just let
them in their own body, do what they want to do?
Of course, right? And if any of these things don't
feel natural to you, well, it's because it's not natural to you,
(21:21):
right? It's not supposed to be natural.
So the truth is, and I know everyone's at the edge of their
seat, like fucking get to it, woman.
The truth is, I don't know. The truth is for me, it is my
role and my purpose to give my clients these tools to better be
able to move throughout the world confidently and safely.
(21:44):
And that is what I am adhering to.
The past two times that I've done consultation about body
language, there was a spouse sitting next to them, right next
to their significant other and they significant other, both sis
women commented, well, I guess I'm not very ladylike, you know,
because they don't do any of these things or they don't
(22:06):
whatever. And I just was like, look, you
are you, you are you, You have abad knee.
Because like, it's almost like altar injuries.
Now you can scale back-to-back back, back in the day when maybe
they wore heels for too long andthen suddenly realize that or
whatever it is, they have alwaysbeen able to do these things,
these postures, these feminine movements that now that they're
(22:29):
older, they can't do as much. But they don't have to.
They could just leave the house.And like you said, they already
wake up like that, right? Trans folk have to work that
much harder to be able to feel safe in the world.
And like, they got that memo. Everyone who I've worked with in
this particular age bracket has said, I want to feel like I got
(22:51):
the memo. I want to feel like I'm part of
the club. Even if the club they're talking
about are six women that don't do any of these things anymore.
They're just kind of undoing it.They don't want to.
They're leaning back at the table because every day is
Passover, you know, they just really don't feel the need to do
that as well as these natural things that they just
(23:12):
automatically do. So there is a need, a niche, an
age bracket where it is very important to me as it is
important to them to really nailthis.
And so I can't think about stereotypes beyond holding up
the stereotype and saying this is how we were taught through
generations of biological women.Let's slow down what you
(23:36):
automatically do as a biologicalmale and let's feminize the shit
out of it. I know I didn't answer your
question but these skills are very important for the
individuals I work with. And when they post a picture of
themselves on Facebook and I hadalready reviewed that smiling is
one of the most feminine things they can do.
(23:58):
Even though for cisgender women,if any man, all the men who have
told us to smile in the past, wegive them a giant fuck you with
our fingers. That's just like a universal
thing where it's like we don't have to smile all the time
because we're not. Happy.
Right, there's that. Oh, you should smile.
More OH. You look so much.
Prettier if you smile when you smile.
(24:19):
OK well translate that bullshit cisgender rule for women.
Translate it to a transgender perspective for someone that is
let's say 60 plus 50s plus and is trying to get the memo.
If they smile in a picture, can I tell you the amount of just
(24:41):
feminine bliss that just comes all over their fit, comes all
over their face? No, just it's just so feminine,
pushes up. And even when women smile, all
women, it pushes up their cheeks, it gives them this
feminine glow. It's just the most feminine
thing they can do. So when I review the profile
(25:01):
pictures that this individual client has shown me from the
time I've start working with them till now, it's the smile.
If there's not that smile, it's almost like they didn't get that
one memo that ties everything ina bow and makes it all worthy.
You said. Something super important it was
about anytime a man tells a woman they should smile more,
(25:23):
that's like the kiss of death. Now what you're saying, I think
inferring with every time you see a client who every weekly
picture they are smiling more and more and more.
It's not because you told them to smile partially is because
you told them to smile. It's like watching a kid who's
four years old. It's like smile for a picture
and you're like, it was like themost uncomfortable looking smile
(25:46):
ever versus something that's genuine and and joyful.
And I'm smiling because I'm feeling more myself.
So I think that's a funny thing because man, every time I smile
with. Your heart.
Yes, smile with your heart because everyone's going to have
a different relationship with their own smile if they're
smiling with their eyes, if they're smiling like everyone
(26:07):
has a different kind of mouth. And let's say some people are
really self-conscious about their teeth or let's say when
they smile, they look like one of those kids that are just like
a smile is just, I don't know, it's like to help people get it.
It's think about the thing in your life that makes you the
most gooey, the most warm. It could be your cross dressing.
(26:28):
It could be your children, it could be your wife, it could be
a movie. You saw a scene in a movie.
Whatever it is that cues that warmness inside you, then I want
you to slowly bring it up into your chest and slowly bring it
up to your neck. And then just let your whole
face feel it, OK? And just let that overwhelming
(26:49):
sense of happiness form your mouth as it should, form your
eyes as it should. It shouldn't be a force thing.
It should be a joy thing. And I do tell one particular
client, smile. And for them, it's for them.
It's like a tease. It's a tease for them because I
don't know what makes it kind of, it makes it kind of, I don't
(27:11):
want to say sexy. What's the word when it it's
like a dichotomy. It's like one of those things
you're playing on gender in a playful way, because if a
biological male ever said smile to a woman, they'd freaking have
whatever it is. But because I'm feeling
empowered, telling a biological man to smile, not only does that
bring me great joy, it also it makes it light and fun and free
(27:36):
and A and a tease, Yes. Do I hear something funny I had
posted, you know, like the way Ismile and the way I post.
And it's I do have this thing where I don't like the way with
that when I smile, it does reachmy eyes and all my eyes are
crinkly. And sometimes I don't like that.
And sometimes I will post a picture where it's me with a
(27:57):
thin smile. But that way he keeps his skin
all nice and, and you know, and ageless, if you will.
And somebody had answered in a comment was like, oh, you should
smile more. And it was a trans woman.
And I, even though it was not a man, I mean biologically male
speaking, but I was like, how dare you?
(28:19):
I was like, how dare you tell meyou smile more.
I felt like such a woman in thatmoment, like.
I'm like you. Madam.
How dare you biological sirs yetbecoming a Madam.
How dare you say that It was like.
The memo was like, please, as a gender fluid person, male to
female, please never tell another person of the female
(28:40):
persuasion to smile more, you know?
So I was like, oh. Yeah, and I was like so
triggered. I can't even tell you because
not because that's already what was said, but because I am so
uncomfortable sometimes with my face and my smiling and what it
does. So it was with my own trigger as
well. But it was funny that you bring
it up that a lot of times peoplewill say to men and women to
(29:00):
smile more and you can take offense.
Well, yes, and I have to remember, or you all have to
remember, is my place in the world and my role.
So I develop. I have a very specific job,
right? Even if a friend told me to
smile more, a good girlfriend and fucking feel so
self-conscious. And what are you talking about?
Because we know inherently that if someone is smiling, they're
(29:24):
happy, they want to, There's a joy to it.
And you know your face very, very well.
And you've taken a ton of selfies, which that teaches me
that you've figured out your angles.
You've figured out how to capture your joy in a way that
when you're looking through the photos and choosing the ones you
(29:46):
like best, you're feeling your joy.
You're in your joy, and you're not going to post something that
doesn't feel to you. Like, it's just like a
miserable. Yeah, Yeah, right.
I'm an old school doll. I'm.
Every time I look at me, my shoulder's going.
I'm a little cute. You see, I always think of,
like, the Annie song. You never fully dressed without
a smile. Do you know that?
(30:08):
I do. You've sang it many a time on
this podcast. Do you know who it is?
Do I know who Annie is? Yeah, of course.
Everybody knows Lil Orphan Annie.
All right, can I say something just just in the side now?
Yes. What's this?
So there's this holiday called Forum Jewish Holiday that just
(30:28):
was yesterday or something. And when I taught at the
preschool, I would always wonderwhat am I going to wear?
Like I never dressed up. And this year I did OK and I got
let go for my freaking job, so Icouldn't wear the freaking
costume. But can I show you what the
costume is? Sure, you'd have a fully dressed
without us. Wow, she's.
(30:49):
Got the classic Little Orphan Annie red long sleeve dress with
the whites a collar. Amazing.
And now? It's going in the giveaway bag.
I think you. Should I think you should try it
on and wear and take some some pics of you as sexy little
orphan Annie Dirty little. Orphan and I just care what you
guys say. I'm living the best life, yes.
(31:11):
I love that for you, OK. So getting back to our
discussion at hand, body language, stereotypes, male,
female, embodying yourself. Shouldn't we all just be free to
be you and me? Yes, sure.
But if you're going to go to foxandhanger.com and you're
(31:31):
interested in body language, suddenly I am very hip to all
those little movements and little moments that transform
your body in a way that maybe you weren't thinking in masks
and movements. You're just out in the world and
it may trigger you when you see someone within your tribe that
(31:52):
is sitting there, legs spread out, and you're like, oh God, oh
God, you're just like, I did notsee this.
And it's very hard to accept, mainly because you're working
really hard to conceal that partof yourself.
And part of the ways that you goabout it is through being a
student of feminine body language and noticing things.
(32:12):
And sure, there's going to be things that are more masculine,
like putting on a backpack, but you're not going to really get
everything right because certainthings may, you may have to push
not so much into the masculine thing, but the human thing.
Like back backpacks are not glamorous and they're not really
feminine. They're just, I'm doing the
(32:33):
thing, you know, and just givingyourself allowance to accept
that there's going to be certainthings that are just like you
got to do as as a human, not so much as well, this looks manly,
but this is a human thing that doesn't have the grace that I
wish it to have. But got to fill up the car with
gas, you know, got to lift up the hood of my truck.
(32:57):
Yeah, it was funny because I wasjust thinking, had I held the
backpack by the handle, the top handle, then all of a sudden I'm
showing more bicep because I'm holding it, you know, a certain
way. All of a sudden that could not
necessarily be feminine either because I'm showing up a guns.
(33:17):
So I think it at the end of everything we're talking about
is really about exposing. Well, not in this case because
again, UPS package, I don't wantto see it delivered.
I'm just saying with the legs all spread out, I don't need to
see your package arriving. But that being said, I think
it's about the exposure to the things you could do, which is
(33:41):
what you provide your clientele.You're like, listen, here's a
bunch of things that you may or may not know.
You can practice it, you can adopt it, you can reject it and
then choose your own path. But it is about learning.
Like not everybody is going to be as observationally adept.
Maybe they never notice how women walk and how and why their
(34:03):
hips sway the way they do. One is biological because of
wider hips. But there are other things at
play. So it is about taking the course
and if you decide I've aced the course but I don't think it's
going to be my career, that's fine too.
Trying it on for size, if you will, and figuring out your own
relationship with feminine movement if you want to apply it
(34:27):
like you said. If you, like you said, I took
the course and then I maybe, would you say maybe it won't be
my destiny or something to that extreme?
Or maybe, just maybe, you take the course and then you realize,
huh, there are things I can add to my repertoire, to my feminine
persona, to my female part of myself or entirety of the
(34:51):
feminine being that I am. I can apply these things when I
feel like it. Yeah, exactly when I feel like.
And I'm not saying, oh, wheneveryou're going out to dinner and
you want to practice your femininity, you better eat that
steak at home at the tub halfwayfilled.
Because something I have troublewith is talking and eating
(35:12):
right. And I am a an eater, right?
But something I really struggle with.
I struggle with this last week where I was talking so much and
I was telling a story so much that I just there was, it just
happened to be very Julie centric, a Julie centric
episode, as you say, where I wastalking so much.
And then when the waiter came and I was like, oh, everything
(35:33):
was delicious. And then they said they were
like, well, you didn't eat anything.
I was like, can I get a box for that?
I looked down at my avocado toast and it's ripped in a bunch
of pieces and it's really 5% is missing because I was just so
into telling the story or talking.
So that's another part of it where you're like, OK, if I'm
going to slow down and I'm goingto really try to be aware and
(35:54):
I'm going to be aware of not butjust kicking the thing at the
fork. What if I'm hungry?
And no one that's to mess with ahuman when they're fucking
starving because it's so animalistic when you're like
telling me I have to go to the Oh my God, this is so
stereotypical. Oh my God, you're teaching
anorexia. Like it gets into that roses of
all this like feminine and eating disorder area.
(36:17):
That being said, if you don't want to get a lip stain, it's
going to come off if you're not careful.
If you don't want to be clocked out and about and you're just
trying to be as feminine as possible and want to blend in
with the CIS woman at your table, you're trying to do more
listening. Well, if you're listening and
eating the corn the whole time, it's just changing it up a
(36:37):
little bit and developing strategies.
If you choose. If you choose to, yes.
I wanted to give one more example and you've been doing it
a lot, by the way, during our recording here today.
Use of hands, like as Chuck, I don't do any kind of conducting
with my hands when I speak, but as Savannah, it's almost like
(36:58):
I'm crafting some sort of sorcery.
But it's just a lot of use of hands are very gracefully just
throwing it out there. And you've been doing, you do
that a lot as well. And when you speak that you're
very ill sort of with your hands.
And I find that, yes, both men and women do it, but there is a
gracefulness when women do it. Obviously that's inherent to
(37:20):
womanhood in a cross dressing person who tends to talk with
their hands or can talk with their hands.
If you just make it more genteeland more graceful, you'll find
that can make all the differencetoo well.
Can I tell you that is? Well, you can't.
Tell me. OK, go ahead.
Can I tell you that is one of the reasons why I honestly
believe it's important to maintain this trend that when I
(37:42):
was working in the preschool washard to maintain.
I got frustrated was the nails because I am someone that talks
a lot with my hands. I work online with people From
this moment on, I will try to maintain even had the person
make an appointment for 3 1/2 weeks from now to get them done
again because it's really important to create that overall
(38:03):
clean look because I'm someone as a woman.
Not all women do this, but I am someone that touches my face a
lot when I talk. I listen that way.
I don't really realize I do it. I talk a lot with my hands.
It's really important that thesethese fingers look polished and
clean and neat, and I haven't been doing it thus far, but
anyone who books with foxofhager.com know that they
(38:26):
will have some nails. I declare it today, from this
day forward. Oh my, I know.
So I have to maintain. You do, they look great.
Thank you. Am I look?
Like me, I look stubby anyway, but maybe I'll get.
You have the the clip, you have the extension, so it balances
everything. Everything.
(38:47):
Balances out that's right all right anything else we need to I
don't want to give away the entire story of like how to be
feminine so look other. We've got some listeners that
may be a little pissed with me, they may be they're not pissed
at you, they're pissed at me. They want to get more tricks of
the trade, body language tips dothis, do that.
(39:11):
To which I say, you think I wantto expose the whole enchilada?
No, I'm just warming up the scents.
And then you can go to foxandhangar.com and I'll, I
will give you the secrets. OK, I'll.
Just say the view with cross dressing.
That feels like I need to get myown plug in.
Here you have. To I have to.
Apparently, hey, buy the books. That's all I'm saying.
(39:31):
All right, so. Buy the books and you're going
on a cruise. Yes, I am in September.
I will have more details soon that.
You will be plugging like the freaking like it's Christmas I.
Will do my best to do my duty for a God and country.
So all I have to say is Barucha,Todd and I, I love you.
(39:51):
I love you. Only in English though, because
I'm like only only in language Iknow.
And I want to end this with one of these with a product, another
product show. Do you know what this is?
Isn't the thing that you like move your fats around and stuff?
I don't know, but this got the red light.
You got the green light, right? The green light feels very all
(40:13):
I. Know is just for everybody who's
listening. Have no clue what's happening.
Just got this like little shovely looking thing that she
is running up and down her face and her neck and it's got a
green light and a red light and yeah, I don't know what this is.
How the cool kids look snatched Oh is.
That what it is. OK, basically she's just running
up and down her face. OK, so we hope that this episode
(40:37):
didn't drive you too insane and that you were able to get a
little bit of juice from it and some wisdom and some Nuggets.
I feel a little silly that I couldn't answer your stereotype
question. It's just one of those questions
that has to remain unanswered oranswered as it pertains to the
individual. I wish everyone a great week and
(41:00):
lots and lots of moments to smile and TuneIn to us every
single Wednesday for a new episode of the Fox and the
Phoenix Pie cast. Oh yeah, bye for now.
Until next time. Nailed it.
(41:27):
You can find me on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with
Cross Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK. And to learn more, go to my
website livingwithcrossdressing.com and
you. Can find me on Instagram and
Facebook at Fox and Hanger or atJulie MTF Style as well as on
(41:47):
our website at foxandhanger.com.Julie, it's your moment, the
Fox. And the Phoenix Podcast uses
Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
cross dressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Hello Miss Julie, you look very
wonderful today with your hair and your outfit and your
mannequin with all the butterflies beside you do.
(00:51):
You see that recreated the website.
Yeah, it looks very cool. I love it.
Annie Ho, like you're saying this now, but if you saw me 10
minutes ago, oh, by ten, I mean four, I was a couple minutes
late, which I know you love. She doesn't love it.
She doesn't. I had raccoon eyes from residue
(01:11):
of mascara because last night I had an event.
We had a wedding of a family. Oh, that.
Was a rave. And so, my dear friends, do you
all notice, ladies, that when you wash your face and cleanse
all the makeup off and then it depends on the situation, right?
You may be in a high stakes situation where you cannot
(01:32):
reveal any residue. But mascaras is hard to get off,
right? So when I woke up this morning,
I just had mascara residue, an eyeliner residue just
underneath. So I thought I'd clean up for
you. So thank you for saying that.
I look refreshed. Look at these nails.
They look amazing. I love them, I love them.
(01:55):
Pointy French. It's like I'm a classy lady, but
I can claw you down. I love it.
Yeah, they're pretty. And they're fake.
They're acrylic. Right.
They press on or did you have them done?
I had them done OK got it and I can't really function with them
like I can't pick up items. Do you remember from your nails
(02:17):
days? Did you have nail days?
It was always the last thing I did because I couldn't put
contacts in, I couldn't do my makeup, I couldn't get my
clothes on without them popping off.
They were always the last thing.And after a while, it's just
like, I ain't got tired for that.
I know, I mean they look so gorge like look my hands are
just so old and Bony but with the nails they look long and
(02:40):
luxurious. They do, they look amazing.
I love it. Any who how are you?
I am also feeling the Bony and luxurious.
Wait, that's not right I decided.
I decided to do a thing today and I was on Amazon.
I was getting stuff ready for the Keystone trip which is now
passed. I had bought those little
extensions and they were little colored extensions and put in my
(03:01):
hair and I'd never done it before.
And today was the first day I went out and put two.
I got 18 of them, but I put 2 inmy hair, in my wig, and I'm just
very happy with the results. It blends in just these little
streaks of, let's just call it red, just some streaks of red in
my already Auburn hair. And so I went out today and I've
(03:22):
got some compliments. Also, I will tell you, I'm
getting back in the swing of things with Keystone and
everything. Prior to that, it was a period
of time where I was just like, Idon't want to be Savannah.
I'm going to just do a little self preservation, whether
intentionally or unintentionally, whether excuses
or reality or fiction. I finally started to say, you
know what, I need to get my shittogether.
(03:43):
I need to get out there a littlebit more again and be that
person that you know, I intendedto be.
And as a result, I got to see myfavorite barista, Bella Bella
Ella, Ella. And I saw her last week.
She's like, I'm here Sunday and I'm like, I'm going to come in
all dazzly. So I made the promise out loud
to her and myself to give me, listen, you made a promise.
(04:06):
So if you ain't feeling 100%, you commit.
So I committed and I didn't. And then as I'm leaving and
telling Bella, see her later, well suddenly another bracer
comes up and she's got braided here, little like side braids.
She's got those like glitter. Screens.
Going through it, yeah, the foil.
And she's like, hi, I'm Jenniferand I just want to come over and
say hi to you. And I'm like, Oh my God, that's
(04:26):
so sweet. So I said, and I did these
extensions for you. And so we had a little moment.
So it just was one of those things were elevated my whole
day and made me reconnect with Savannah in in a little bit
different way versus just trudging through the day and
doing it to do it. So it made me very happy today.
So I'm coming to you with Atlanta Joy.
(04:48):
That is so great. And you look joyful.
There's something about that popof color close to your face that
just wow, looks great. Thank.
You. I'm just trying to be like you.
Oh, please. I mean, thank you.
You're welcome. I'm trying to be better in 2025
at taking compliments and not immediately serving them a shit
(05:09):
sandwich because I think I'm notdeserving.
So to that I say a thank you. I you're very welcome.
Yeah. It's like, no, I reject your
comments in compliments. It is so hard.
It is so hard to take a compliment, man.
I'll tell you. But anyway, so what's, what's
the checking tonight there, lady?
(05:29):
What's on the menu? What's?
On the menu. Wow.
On the menu is piping hot because today we are serving
body language. Body Audie, Audie.
And I'm talking about mannerisms.
I'm talking about posture. I'm talking about kicking it
back to the old school ladies ofetiquette.
(05:52):
You know where they made the ladies walk with books that's on
their heads, right? To get it trim and proper when
it comes to it's very interesting because I very much
am a character that rejects a lot of society norms and I like
to let it all hang out and I know a lot of my sis, women,
friends, we just kind of exist. We exist in this world.
(06:14):
We walk down the street. We don't really think about what
we do because it's been ingrained in US or we in terms
of body language, in terms of how we hold the glass, for
example, in terms of how little we take up walking down the
street. And it's all those kind of
subtle little. We don't think about it or we're
trying to undo it because it's been chiseled into us upon
(06:37):
generation and generation that we really want to examine when
it comes to male to female transformation, your
transformation could look, you could look as the cool kids say,
fish as hell. Your transformation could be so
you know, you could be passing. You could be fabulous, right?
And I'm, I'm mainly talking to the kind of later in life
(07:01):
crossdressers or trans women, you can look the part, but if
you're not embodying the clothes, if you're not embodying
the feminine experience, that alone can clock you.
That alone can leave you exposedin a way that you may not even
realize it. Talking about feminine body
(07:21):
language and movement is something that I really love to
do with my clients, especially clients who have transmission
later in life. They've been doing the same
movements when it comes to how they eat and how they walk and
how they sit for a very, very, very, very, very long time.
It's not so much for the youngergeneration that could pull off
(07:44):
maybe some more feminine vibes. And their parents were more open
to let them just be themselves, right?
And they came up into this worldas fabulous and yes, and just
doing all the feminine movementsbecause that was natural back in
the day. It was ingrained within our
within before I was born, I'm talking about my parents
(08:04):
generation. It was ingrained in terms of how
men and boys must conduct themselves in terms of the body
language. So when teaching someone
feminine body language, it's important to be aware of the
masculine body language that they just come to the table with
and be aware of kind of the differences between men and
(08:27):
women. For example, men tend to take up
a lot of space when they walk. They tend to walk hunchback and
just both legs side by side. Maybe there's one in front just
for movement's sake, but it's not elongated, it's wide if you
will. They tend to take up a lot of
space where women, biological women have been trained that,
(08:51):
oh, taking up space is not what I do.
I am trained that I must be seenand not heard, so I must walk
with as little space as possible, right?
So I may look model esque with one leg in front of the other
and I may look like I'm getting the memo.
And this is great. But if I bump into another woman
(09:14):
or if someone's in my way, we have a mutual apologizing that
happens. Oh, I apologize, oh, it's OK.
And just moving through space, just weary of our place on the
sidewalk, weary of our ability to make as little movement as
possible where men do the opposite.
That also comes down to what we're thinking about walking
(09:36):
through space. Now.
We're translating the larger male movements with the smaller
feminine movements where, you know, picking up a fork is much
more small and delicate are, youknow, grabbing it.
And yes, I'm stereotyping, but also stereotypes come from a
place. They have an origin, they have a
(09:56):
reason for existing that has been trained within us over
time. So for example, when I'm working
with someone, we start with the walk and how to adjust that.
Then we move down to smaller body movements when it comes to
the hands, when it comes to holding a bottled water, for
(10:16):
example, right, I naturally put my hand on the bottom of this
bottled water that I'm holding right now.
But maybe if someone was, you know, biologically born male,
they were much older, had this all trained and they have to
relearn some of that. Maybe approach it a little bit
lighter. Maybe be aware of putting that
(10:36):
hand on the bottom. Maybe be aware.
And as much as I'm a guzzler, right, I, I just guzzle that
water all the way to the bottom because this is who I am.
I'm a CIS woman in the world, right?
And someone who is unlearning all of the behaviors in their
body needs to then apply all of these little things.
Like, for example, take sips, right?
(10:58):
If a trans woman goes out into the world and they're guzzling
water, finishing the whole thing, they may be clocked,
possibly change it up, Take little sips from the water,
slowly put it down. Just all of these little body
language things that one now hasto think about, One now has to
train for almost one has to set a time to practice as if it was
(11:25):
a workout, exercise or a meditation.
For example, sometimes I give myclients assignments for just 15
minutes a night. Practice screeching way back in
your chair with your tushy back,your shoulders back, and just
sit on the couch. Everything long, just sit on the
couch. Notice when you're sitting on
the couch what you're doing withyour hands.
(11:47):
So all of this from head to toe is to be considerate.
Now I'm going to take a little break from my Ted talk about
body language because I want to know what you have to say and
your experience with this, because this is not only my
podcast, but it's also yours. Well, I appreciate the break
because I I was just going to keep writing notes until you're
finished. I need to guzzle my water down.
(12:09):
Please guzzle your water if I hold it by the neck, please, so
you can look more Manish. You talk about the training and
exercises and when I was youngerthere was Miss Vera School
dedicate that was always in the Village Voice and something I
was really interested in, like, oh, maybe I could go there and
(12:31):
learn some things. Never did.
Obviously. You've been.
When I was living in New York, it was a little bit pricey at
the time. I was up beyond me.
So what I, as somebody who did not have the benefit of those
teachers and mentors, I was relegated to using power of
observation, whether it be on the street, whether it be people
(12:52):
in the subway, whether it be actresses on screen, large and
small, and just looking and watching in mimicking or hoping
to mimic those quote UN quote, stereotypically female things I
wanted to emulate. Right.
And you talked about there's a reason why stereotypes are
stereotypes, because it's there.They exist because there's truth
(13:14):
to the stereotype, which I want to come back to stereotypes
later because I have a question for you.
But I wanted to rattle off some of the things that I learned by
watching and doing over my many,many decades.
The first is hands on knees, like palms down, either one on
top of the other or just on yourcrossed legs, whether the legs
(13:37):
are crossed at the knees or at the ankles.
I don't know if you know, as a natural woman, but me, sometimes
it's very hard for me to cross my legs at the knees.
There's this little thing in themiddle that tends to, I don't
know, get squished and hurts. And so a lot of people don't
even have the thigh strength to keep their legs pressed together
(13:58):
and crossed. So that's why I've gone with the
at the ankles and leaves a little more looseness to the
legs, even though your thighs tend to go together when to
cross at the ankles. But it's still it takes effort
like it takes like, it's almost like you need to take those
little thigh things at the gym to well.
That's something I want to just say it's safe to throw out.
(14:20):
It is safe to throw out 'cause Idon't know if it's the
musculature of the body or just the fact your body just doesn't
work that way. Most.
Of my clients who I work with onbody language and mannerisms are
something that I tend to do a lot in my field.
I tell them to let go of the oneleg over the other.
Just let it go cross that the ankles is great or leaning your
(14:43):
whole legs just to the side and crossing the angle.
It's enough, it's enough. But you said something that I
just want to come back to quickly and just validate the
shit out of it. And that's observation and
observing people when watching TV, try to notice what the
(15:05):
females on TV are doing. And as you're sitting there, you
know, assuming it's a safe time to do it, you may have to look
both ways or whatever your situation may be.
Just practice. What are they doing with their
legs? How are they touching their face
a lot when they talk? What are they doing with their
hands? I'm not saying that this has to
(15:25):
be yours, right? You may be someone that it just
feels like no matter how much you practice, your arms are too
long and trying to recreate the body type just isn't there to do
it. There's something to be said
about mirroring when it comes tocreating your femininity and
embodying it, so that was a great thing to bring up.
Observation is 1000% key to thisexperience that it's your
(15:50):
greatest teachers and. The fact that the the female
anatomy and the male anatomy aredifferent, therefore there are
things that even if you tried your best may not seem natural
to you. So I want to validate on that
point. The one thing I saw you do when
you're holding up that glass, you had your pinky out.
One of the things that I always somehow it just naturally
(16:12):
happened as Savannah, my pinky is always out with any sort of
thing in my hand beverage wise. So I thought it was funny that
you're doing it natural as well.And it was just something that I
don't know if I, because pinky is one of those like every time
you talk to, you have to have the pinky out.
I never observed that in the world.
They just seemed like the right thing to do.
So I did that today. As a matter of fact, because we
(16:33):
were coming into this topic, there was a couple things I
locked into my brain a little bit as I was walking from
Starbucks to my car. I have my backpack.
So one thing, the backpack, you sling it over the shoulder does
not feel very dainty at all. I should have maybe just held it
by the handle and had it lower to my side.
And I'm realizing as I'm focusing on the backpack, I
(16:54):
wasn't focusing on my walking. And so the tip I'll say is that
when you're walking, is that really necessary about the make
sure your foot is overlapping your other foot as you walk?
It's really for me about hip movement.
Is a. Focusing on the hip and the sway
of the hips a little bit more because again, men kind of
lumber and females kind of glide.
And so if you can focus on that,the hip action a little bit and
(17:17):
give that kind of rhythm, the rest of the body sometimes falls
into line with that. So that's one thing I focus on.
I also want to mention eating. You're talking about taking
smaller bites. The one thing that I learned,
because I do inhale food, Chuck inhales a steak like, but I
found that the one thing that always happened to me, I would
(17:38):
go to a meal at Savannah, come home, all my lipstick would be
gone because I'm eating. So what I think lies is it's
about taking smaller bites and it's about putting it on the
fork versus not it with your teeth.
And then instead of closing yourlips around food, you put the
food on the fork and get it behind your teeth and draw, draw
(18:00):
the fork out. That way you're not drawing all
the lipstick off your lips as a result.
So that was the one thing I learned just by trial and error.
I'm like, but I don't want to leave here and realize that all
my lipstick is gone. I want to make sure that stays.
And no matter how good your lipstick is, if you like dabbing
enough times with a napkin or you're eating food, it's going
(18:20):
to come off. And what else I wrote, Oh, you
said too, that long line. Imagine that you're a puppet and
you have a string coming up the top of your head and elongate
that line as if you're being pulled up by the head.
So the shoulders back, the chin forward for me, because I have
AI got a little thicker neck. So I like to push shoulders back
to the chin forward to give me alittle more hollow and swan
(18:42):
esque look. And that's not about movement
necessarily. It's just about again, that
posture. We are talking about the knees
on the ankles. We talked about the backpack.
That's all my little tips and tricks for the moment.
But what I wanted to ask you wasabout the stereotype.
Because I think a lot of times there are people that are such a
slave to the emulation of the female or male stereotype
(19:05):
opposite of their biology that Ithink we've become a slave to
it. And I think that I've seen many
cross dressing women who I got their legs wide open when
they're wearing skirts and dresses, which is definitely not
what I felt was appropriate. But for them, they were very
comfortable. They didn't think anything about
it. But for me, in my brain, I'm
(19:26):
like, oh, that's not cool. I do not endorse the way they're
actually right. It's just triggering for you.
It was true. Yeah, Yeah.
But. Who's right?
Is it regular? No, you need to be dainty.
Or is it just like whatever makes you call I?
Think that when we're thinking about femininity and really be
getting it right or embodying it, we realized that it's not
(19:49):
only the clothes. Now the clothes can help you
with everything. For example, I often will use a
crossbody bag, and that automatically helps people put
back their shoulders and elongate their posture.
It's like a tool. But you were just talking about
stereotypes. And shouldn't people be free to
just be their authentic self? And my answer is.
(20:13):
Yes and no. I guess for me, it's kind of
like you spent so long in the closet and then you're out with
your girlfriends that are all crossdressers and you just want
to be free to, to let your hair down and just do the thing and
eat so much that your lipstick falls off.
And yeah, yeah. Sisterhood.
I say go for it. You're with your crew, you're
(20:36):
with your path. You don't want to have to think.
You don't want to have to think.I think that's fine.
But trans women in the world, they have a disadvantage, they
have a disadvantage. So it is up to me in my job to
keep, keep my clients as safe aspossible, right.
So when it comes to, it's very interesting because at this
(21:00):
wedding I was at, I was telling this person about the topic
today and they brought up that same question when it comes to
stereotypes. Well, shouldn't you just let
them in their own body, do what they want to do?
Of course, right? And if any of these things don't
feel natural to you, well, it's because it's not natural to you,
(21:21):
right? It's not supposed to be natural.
So the truth is, and I know everyone's at the edge of their
seat, like fucking get to it, woman.
The truth is, I don't know. The truth is for me, it is my
role and my purpose to give my clients these tools to better be
able to move throughout the world confidently and safely.
(21:44):
And that is what I am adhering to.
The past two times that I've done consultation about body
language, there was a spouse sitting next to them, right next
to their significant other and they significant other, both sis
women commented, well, I guess I'm not very ladylike, you know,
because they don't do any of these things or they don't
(22:06):
whatever. And I just was like, look, you
are you, you are you, You have abad knee.
Because like, it's almost like altar injuries.
Now you can scale back-to-back back, back in the day when maybe
they wore heels for too long andthen suddenly realize that or
whatever it is, they have alwaysbeen able to do these things,
these postures, these feminine movements that now that they're
(22:29):
older, they can't do as much. But they don't have to.
They could just leave the house.And like you said, they already
wake up like that, right? Trans folk have to work that
much harder to be able to feel safe in the world.
And like, they got that memo. Everyone who I've worked with in
this particular age bracket has said, I want to feel like I got
(22:51):
the memo. I want to feel like I'm part of
the club. Even if the club they're talking
about are six women that don't do any of these things anymore.
They're just kind of undoing it.They don't want to.
They're leaning back at the table because every day is
Passover, you know, they just really don't feel the need to do
that as well as these natural things that they just
(23:12):
automatically do. So there is a need, a niche, an
age bracket where it is very important to me as it is
important to them to really nailthis.
And so I can't think about stereotypes beyond holding up
the stereotype and saying this is how we were taught through
generations of biological women.Let's slow down what you
(23:36):
automatically do as a biologicalmale and let's feminize the shit
out of it. I know I didn't answer your
question but these skills are very important for the
individuals I work with. And when they post a picture of
themselves on Facebook and I hadalready reviewed that smiling is
one of the most feminine things they can do.
(23:58):
Even though for cisgender women,if any man, all the men who have
told us to smile in the past, wegive them a giant fuck you with
our fingers. That's just like a universal
thing where it's like we don't have to smile all the time
because we're not. Happy.
Right, there's that. Oh, you should smile.
More OH. You look so much.
Prettier if you smile when you smile.
(24:19):
OK well translate that bullshit cisgender rule for women.
Translate it to a transgender perspective for someone that is
let's say 60 plus 50s plus and is trying to get the memo.
If they smile in a picture, can I tell you the amount of just
(24:41):
feminine bliss that just comes all over their fit, comes all
over their face? No, just it's just so feminine,
pushes up. And even when women smile, all
women, it pushes up their cheeks, it gives them this
feminine glow. It's just the most feminine
thing they can do. So when I review the profile
(25:01):
pictures that this individual client has shown me from the
time I've start working with them till now, it's the smile.
If there's not that smile, it's almost like they didn't get that
one memo that ties everything ina bow and makes it all worthy.
You said. Something super important it was
about anytime a man tells a woman they should smile more,
(25:23):
that's like the kiss of death. Now what you're saying, I think
inferring with every time you see a client who every weekly
picture they are smiling more and more and more.
It's not because you told them to smile partially is because
you told them to smile. It's like watching a kid who's
four years old. It's like smile for a picture
and you're like, it was like themost uncomfortable looking smile
(25:46):
ever versus something that's genuine and and joyful.
And I'm smiling because I'm feeling more myself.
So I think that's a funny thing because man, every time I smile
with. Your heart.
Yes, smile with your heart because everyone's going to have
a different relationship with their own smile if they're
smiling with their eyes, if they're smiling like everyone
(26:07):
has a different kind of mouth. And let's say some people are
really self-conscious about their teeth or let's say when
they smile, they look like one of those kids that are just like
a smile is just, I don't know, it's like to help people get it.
It's think about the thing in your life that makes you the
most gooey, the most warm. It could be your cross dressing.
(26:28):
It could be your children, it could be your wife, it could be
a movie. You saw a scene in a movie.
Whatever it is that cues that warmness inside you, then I want
you to slowly bring it up into your chest and slowly bring it
up to your neck. And then just let your whole
face feel it, OK? And just let that overwhelming
(26:49):
sense of happiness form your mouth as it should, form your
eyes as it should. It shouldn't be a force thing.
It should be a joy thing. And I do tell one particular
client, smile. And for them, it's for them.
It's like a tease. It's a tease for them because I
don't know what makes it kind of, it makes it kind of, I don't
(27:11):
want to say sexy. What's the word when it it's
like a dichotomy. It's like one of those things
you're playing on gender in a playful way, because if a
biological male ever said smile to a woman, they'd freaking have
whatever it is. But because I'm feeling
empowered, telling a biological man to smile, not only does that
bring me great joy, it also it makes it light and fun and free
(27:36):
and A and a tease, Yes. Do I hear something funny I had
posted, you know, like the way Ismile and the way I post.
And it's I do have this thing where I don't like the way with
that when I smile, it does reachmy eyes and all my eyes are
crinkly. And sometimes I don't like that.
And sometimes I will post a picture where it's me with a
(27:57):
thin smile. But that way he keeps his skin
all nice and, and you know, and ageless, if you will.
And somebody had answered in a comment was like, oh, you should
smile more. And it was a trans woman.
And I, even though it was not a man, I mean biologically male
speaking, but I was like, how dare you?
(28:19):
I was like, how dare you tell meyou smile more.
I felt like such a woman in thatmoment, like.
I'm like you. Madam.
How dare you biological sirs yetbecoming a Madam.
How dare you say that It was like.
The memo was like, please, as a gender fluid person, male to
female, please never tell another person of the female
(28:40):
persuasion to smile more, you know?
So I was like, oh. Yeah, and I was like so
triggered. I can't even tell you because
not because that's already what was said, but because I am so
uncomfortable sometimes with my face and my smiling and what it
does. So it was with my own trigger as
well. But it was funny that you bring
it up that a lot of times peoplewill say to men and women to
(29:00):
smile more and you can take offense.
Well, yes, and I have to remember, or you all have to
remember, is my place in the world and my role.
So I develop. I have a very specific job,
right? Even if a friend told me to
smile more, a good girlfriend and fucking feel so
self-conscious. And what are you talking about?
Because we know inherently that if someone is smiling, they're
(29:24):
happy, they want to, There's a joy to it.
And you know your face very, very well.
And you've taken a ton of selfies, which that teaches me
that you've figured out your angles.
You've figured out how to capture your joy in a way that
when you're looking through the photos and choosing the ones you
(29:46):
like best, you're feeling your joy.
You're in your joy, and you're not going to post something that
doesn't feel to you. Like, it's just like a
miserable. Yeah, Yeah, right.
I'm an old school doll. I'm.
Every time I look at me, my shoulder's going.
I'm a little cute. You see, I always think of,
like, the Annie song. You never fully dressed without
a smile. Do you know that?
(30:08):
I do. You've sang it many a time on
this podcast. Do you know who it is?
Do I know who Annie is? Yeah, of course.
Everybody knows Lil Orphan Annie.
All right, can I say something just just in the side now?
Yes. What's this?
So there's this holiday called Forum Jewish Holiday that just
(30:28):
was yesterday or something. And when I taught at the
preschool, I would always wonderwhat am I going to wear?
Like I never dressed up. And this year I did OK and I got
let go for my freaking job, so Icouldn't wear the freaking
costume. But can I show you what the
costume is? Sure, you'd have a fully dressed
without us. Wow, she's.
(30:49):
Got the classic Little Orphan Annie red long sleeve dress with
the whites a collar. Amazing.
And now? It's going in the giveaway bag.
I think you. Should I think you should try it
on and wear and take some some pics of you as sexy little
orphan Annie Dirty little. Orphan and I just care what you
guys say. I'm living the best life, yes.
(31:11):
I love that for you, OK. So getting back to our
discussion at hand, body language, stereotypes, male,
female, embodying yourself. Shouldn't we all just be free to
be you and me? Yes, sure.
But if you're going to go to foxandhanger.com and you're
(31:31):
interested in body language, suddenly I am very hip to all
those little movements and little moments that transform
your body in a way that maybe you weren't thinking in masks
and movements. You're just out in the world and
it may trigger you when you see someone within your tribe that
(31:52):
is sitting there, legs spread out, and you're like, oh God, oh
God, you're just like, I did notsee this.
And it's very hard to accept, mainly because you're working
really hard to conceal that partof yourself.
And part of the ways that you goabout it is through being a
student of feminine body language and noticing things.
(32:12):
And sure, there's going to be things that are more masculine,
like putting on a backpack, but you're not going to really get
everything right because certainthings may, you may have to push
not so much into the masculine thing, but the human thing.
Like back backpacks are not glamorous and they're not really
feminine. They're just, I'm doing the
(32:33):
thing, you know, and just givingyourself allowance to accept
that there's going to be certainthings that are just like you
got to do as as a human, not so much as well, this looks manly,
but this is a human thing that doesn't have the grace that I
wish it to have. But got to fill up the car with
gas, you know, got to lift up the hood of my truck.
(32:57):
Yeah, it was funny because I wasjust thinking, had I held the
backpack by the handle, the top handle, then all of a sudden I'm
showing more bicep because I'm holding it, you know, a certain
way. All of a sudden that could not
necessarily be feminine either because I'm showing up a guns.
(33:17):
So I think it at the end of everything we're talking about
is really about exposing. Well, not in this case because
again, UPS package, I don't wantto see it delivered.
I'm just saying with the legs all spread out, I don't need to
see your package arriving. But that being said, I think
it's about the exposure to the things you could do, which is
(33:41):
what you provide your clientele.You're like, listen, here's a
bunch of things that you may or may not know.
You can practice it, you can adopt it, you can reject it and
then choose your own path. But it is about learning.
Like not everybody is going to be as observationally adept.
Maybe they never notice how women walk and how and why their
(34:03):
hips sway the way they do. One is biological because of
wider hips. But there are other things at
play. So it is about taking the course
and if you decide I've aced the course but I don't think it's
going to be my career, that's fine too.
Trying it on for size, if you will, and figuring out your own
relationship with feminine movement if you want to apply it
(34:27):
like you said. If you, like you said, I took
the course and then I maybe, would you say maybe it won't be
my destiny or something to that extreme?
Or maybe, just maybe, you take the course and then you realize,
huh, there are things I can add to my repertoire, to my feminine
persona, to my female part of myself or entirety of the
(34:51):
feminine being that I am. I can apply these things when I
feel like it. Yeah, exactly when I feel like.
And I'm not saying, oh, wheneveryou're going out to dinner and
you want to practice your femininity, you better eat that
steak at home at the tub halfwayfilled.
Because something I have troublewith is talking and eating
(35:12):
right. And I am a an eater, right?
But something I really struggle with.
I struggle with this last week where I was talking so much and
I was telling a story so much that I just there was, it just
happened to be very Julie centric, a Julie centric
episode, as you say, where I wastalking so much.
And then when the waiter came and I was like, oh, everything
(35:33):
was delicious. And then they said they were
like, well, you didn't eat anything.
I was like, can I get a box for that?
I looked down at my avocado toast and it's ripped in a bunch
of pieces and it's really 5% is missing because I was just so
into telling the story or talking.
So that's another part of it where you're like, OK, if I'm
going to slow down and I'm goingto really try to be aware and
(35:54):
I'm going to be aware of not butjust kicking the thing at the
fork. What if I'm hungry?
And no one that's to mess with ahuman when they're fucking
starving because it's so animalistic when you're like
telling me I have to go to the Oh my God, this is so
stereotypical. Oh my God, you're teaching
anorexia. Like it gets into that roses of
all this like feminine and eating disorder area.
(36:17):
That being said, if you don't want to get a lip stain, it's
going to come off if you're not careful.
If you don't want to be clocked out and about and you're just
trying to be as feminine as possible and want to blend in
with the CIS woman at your table, you're trying to do more
listening. Well, if you're listening and
eating the corn the whole time, it's just changing it up a
(36:37):
little bit and developing strategies.
If you choose. If you choose to, yes.
I wanted to give one more example and you've been doing it
a lot, by the way, during our recording here today.
Use of hands, like as Chuck, I don't do any kind of conducting
with my hands when I speak, but as Savannah, it's almost like
(36:58):
I'm crafting some sort of sorcery.
But it's just a lot of use of hands are very gracefully just
throwing it out there. And you've been doing, you do
that a lot as well. And when you speak that you're
very ill sort of with your hands.
And I find that, yes, both men and women do it, but there is a
gracefulness when women do it. Obviously that's inherent to
(37:20):
womanhood in a cross dressing person who tends to talk with
their hands or can talk with their hands.
If you just make it more genteeland more graceful, you'll find
that can make all the differencetoo well.
Can I tell you that is? Well, you can't.
Tell me. OK, go ahead.
Can I tell you that is one of the reasons why I honestly
believe it's important to maintain this trend that when I
(37:42):
was working in the preschool washard to maintain.
I got frustrated was the nails because I am someone that talks
a lot with my hands. I work online with people From
this moment on, I will try to maintain even had the person
make an appointment for 3 1/2 weeks from now to get them done
again because it's really important to create that overall
(38:03):
clean look because I'm someone as a woman.
Not all women do this, but I am someone that touches my face a
lot when I talk. I listen that way.
I don't really realize I do it. I talk a lot with my hands.
It's really important that thesethese fingers look polished and
clean and neat, and I haven't been doing it thus far, but
anyone who books with foxofhager.com know that they
(38:26):
will have some nails. I declare it today, from this
day forward. Oh my, I know.
So I have to maintain. You do, they look great.
Thank you. Am I look?
Like me, I look stubby anyway, but maybe I'll get.
You have the the clip, you have the extension, so it balances
everything. Everything.
(38:47):
Balances out that's right all right anything else we need to I
don't want to give away the entire story of like how to be
feminine so look other. We've got some listeners that
may be a little pissed with me, they may be they're not pissed
at you, they're pissed at me. They want to get more tricks of
the trade, body language tips dothis, do that.
(39:11):
To which I say, you think I wantto expose the whole enchilada?
No, I'm just warming up the scents.
And then you can go to foxandhangar.com and I'll, I
will give you the secrets. OK, I'll.
Just say the view with cross dressing.
That feels like I need to get myown plug in.
Here you have. To I have to.
Apparently, hey, buy the books. That's all I'm saying.
(39:31):
All right, so. Buy the books and you're going
on a cruise. Yes, I am in September.
I will have more details soon that.
You will be plugging like the freaking like it's Christmas I.
Will do my best to do my duty for a God and country.
So all I have to say is Barucha,Todd and I, I love you.
(39:51):
I love you. Only in English though, because
I'm like only only in language Iknow.
And I want to end this with one of these with a product, another
product show. Do you know what this is?
Isn't the thing that you like move your fats around and stuff?
I don't know, but this got the red light.
You got the green light, right? The green light feels very all
(40:13):
I. Know is just for everybody who's
listening. Have no clue what's happening.
Just got this like little shovely looking thing that she
is running up and down her face and her neck and it's got a
green light and a red light and yeah, I don't know what this is.
How the cool kids look snatched Oh is.
That what it is. OK, basically she's just running
up and down her face. OK, so we hope that this episode
(40:37):
didn't drive you too insane and that you were able to get a
little bit of juice from it and some wisdom and some Nuggets.
I feel a little silly that I couldn't answer your stereotype
question. It's just one of those questions
that has to remain unanswered oranswered as it pertains to the
individual. I wish everyone a great week and
(41:00):
lots and lots of moments to smile and TuneIn to us every
single Wednesday for a new episode of the Fox and the
Phoenix Pie cast. Oh yeah, bye for now.
Until next time. Nailed it.
(41:27):
You can find me on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with
Cross Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK. And to learn more, go to my
website livingwithcrossdressing.com and
you. Can find me on Instagram and
Facebook at Fox and Hanger or atJulie MTF Style as well as on
(41:47):
our website at foxandhanger.com.Julie, it's your moment, the
Fox. And the Phoenix Podcast uses
Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
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