April 30, 2025 • 31 mins
In this episode, Savannah and Julie want to discuss the same topic! After the March excitement of the 2025 Keystone Conference in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, our cohosts delve deeper into a question that was brought up during Savannah's workshop, "Why might a cis-gender female partner think that their crossdressing counterpart is objectifying womanhood and femininity when they dress up as a female"?
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
cross dressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Hello, Miss Rubenstein.
Hello, Julie. How are you?
I missed you. I missed you too.
It feels like only yesterday that we were in the same place
(00:51):
at the same time. We were actually, it was only a
couple days ago that we were recording an episode.
And it's because we have so muchlove and wisdom and knowledge to
Kim. No, no, I mean like, yes, same
place on time. You me here at the podcast, but
I'm talking about, you know it. We love it, Keystone.
(01:12):
Oh, Keystone man, that's been. Weeks ago.
Oh. My God, that's like, you know,
so one month ago. Still, still without looking at
the powers of Bee and the the magic of the edits and timing.
It was still a moment that I will cherish till the next time.
(01:35):
Absolutely, as I remember the year of my virginal oh first
stomach key still what to do, who to me, what am I going to do
was ended up being fantastic andevery year just only gets better
and better. And I surprised you.
No, that's the point. I surprised you.
I know you did. But yeah, we talked so much
about that last time about the surprise.
(01:56):
Nothing's ever been compared to it.
Nothing happened. This can't compare to it.
And one of the things you had mentioned in last week's
unraveling of the reveal, your epic, deceitful and underhanded
and shenanigan filled reveal of you surprised me.
The keystone was something that we had talked about that, you
(02:16):
know, hey, we got a lot of ideasand a lot of things that you and
I both wrote down as where to gofrom here.
It's like you can't just go to keystone and not come away with
something we can't. I broke down tons of things, and
I know you did as well. And one of the things that came
from, and we talked about it very briefly last week in the
last episode was during my workshop, there was an attendee
(02:42):
who raised her hand and said, what do you say?
Meaning me? I was like, well, what do you
say to a partner who says to me that they think that all I am
doing when I cross dress is objectifying women?
It's like it took me a second tosituate myself in it.
I think I did an OK job answering.
You also added in a couple of pennies for their thoughts and
(03:07):
added your own spin on what it might mean to objectify
somebody, band dressing as a woman and add that as
objectification of a CIS woman. It was something I wrote down
because I thought it was really important.
And right before this recording,I was sitting with Judy telling
her what the topic was. And she said to me, it's like,
Oh no, I've never thought you were objectifying women.
(03:29):
You were just trying to find your femininity and however that
look. But she says in all the things
you've done and all the things you've worn, whether I thought
the headline was too short or not, she never thought I was out
there locking or objectifying women in any way.
So I wanted to talk about that today.
Well, I Riddle me this. I want to talk about that too.
(03:54):
What? What?
What? Well, then I guess we're all in
the right place, so buckle in everybody.
Yeah, strap on your tits for this.
Maybe do a little talcum powder 'cause this is gonna be.
This is gonna be a fantastic episode.
OK, so this actually came up a few weeks ago when I was talking
to a client and they were going over their cross dressing as it
(04:20):
pertains to I kink or reviewing their cross dressing in a way
that is a little bit more naughty, if you will, right.
And and as they were reviewing it with me, they weren't able to
really fully dive into the heartof what's been going on with
them, how they feel about the feminine, how it relates to them
(04:44):
without no pun intended. Skirting.
Get it? Skirting around the issue of and
I quote, my mom has always told me to treat women with respect
and so which is what I said and so let's talk about that.
And that is just the idea in order for individuals, some
(05:07):
individuals to fully lean back and accept that the taboo of
their cross dressing means owning a part of their of
femininity that is a little edgy, that is heightened, that
is overly sexualized, that is, let's say larger than life or
plays on some of the stereotypes, whether it be the
(05:28):
breasts or the hip pads or wanting to feel cheap or overly
sexualized. In this case, it involves
getting into a headspace where maybe they are wrestling with
the objectification of women in a way that feels so wrong that
they can't even get into the pocket of their cross dressing,
(05:49):
if that makes sense, because they love women, they worship
women. And when they go into this cross
dressing space, it is a kinky space.
It is a sexualized place and they have trouble.
They have a block in their head because they're thinking, well,
I don't want to disrespectful. I don't want to just disrespect
(06:10):
women, ma'am. I mean, literally that was how
it was presented to me was with a lot of great respect with a
ma'am after the sentence and that wrestling match.
Loving an entity, a female so much that even embodying or
experiencing it just a little bit sends them into this trauma
(06:31):
response that they are undoing all of the things that their mom
raised them to be a respectful, kind, open the door for women
kind of human. So I, I really do think that
when you brought up this topic to me, I was able to pinpoint
this one conversation I had withthe client and really bring it
to the table as only one of the aspects when talking about the
(06:54):
larger discussion that we're going to have today.
Love it and it just proves that within a month period of time I
had the question come up and that we were able to answer at
Keystone. You've had a client that is
wrestling with it in their own mind.
So again, the two the sides are at play.
One was being told by assist female from the workshop point
(07:18):
of view that they think that thecrossdresser or gender expensive
person is mocking or objectifying what it is to be a
woman. And then from your point of view
or from your client's point of view, they are wrestling within
about how they approach their femininity feels like they are
objectifying women. And you know, we're not saying
all CIS women feel this way. We're not saying that all male,
(07:41):
female trans folks are thinking this way, yet it's so indicative
to our society. I think the first thing we
should talk about is stereotypes.
You know, we're all coming at this thing, the presentation
perceived and how we want to present kind of always starts
with a stereotype. And we talked about this two
podcasts ago about body language, where we are coming at
(08:03):
the thing of like, how do we emote and present our femininity
in our identity and presentation?
And it's all going to start off with some semblance of a
feminine stereotype that each ofus have come to know as our
starting point of our femininity.
And. When we think about this topic,
(08:25):
we must go back to the origin story we must go back to that
stereotypical view of what is woman for you, meaning how did
we come to understand femininity?
How do we come to understand womanhood and unpack that?
Because that 1950s Greek goddesslike place is femininity in
(08:47):
terms of how we express it, at the heart of it, right at the
definition of it. If it was to look up what is
femininity in the books of the 1950s or in the books of even
further than that, or what is ittoday?
It is the spectrum. So there's all these different
ways in which this topic can land.
(09:10):
But like you said, we need to start from the beginning of the
stereotype and kind of talk about what is it, what does it
look like, and then move from that space.
So when you think about this kind of heightened sense of
femininity, what does it look like to you, Savannah?
What would you say? From my personal perspective,
(09:33):
it's funny you say that. Get a group watching syndicated
television with Leave It to Beaver.
I watched Wonder Woman WKRP in Cincinnati, so in my early 80s.
Influences our Wonder Woman, ourLonnie Anderson, our June
Cleaver. So I've I've seen the gamut of
the heels and Pearl in dress as a homemaker and then the other
(09:55):
side of this very sexy body con super heroine.
So if I've seen all the sides ofit.
But that being said, what my first influence was what I saw
at home. So while I had all these
external influences from television and media, I also had
what was available to me. While my mother was not one to
(10:17):
walk around in dresses everyday,neither was my sister.
They all were fairly casual in like how they dress, but there
was just something about being able to have access to a pair of
kitten heels and a silk slip andlong line bra.
Those things were available to me and they just informed and
influenced like how I could moveforward because I only had what
(10:40):
was available. It's not like I was had money to
go buy something that's seven years old to for myself.
So it's all borrowed in use. But the idea of this heightened,
I don't know, like Pearl wearing, Pearl necklace wearing
homemaker, very elevated, very classic in terms of wearing the
(11:00):
dress and the heels and stockings was always very much
something I liked from everyday point of view because I could
definitely look at Lynda Carter and know that was not
appropriate. You're not going to go out,
dress away. Because she was obviously a
little more fantasy and it derived from reality.
(11:24):
So for me, it was always like looking at those 1950s and 60s
people, because you look at the Brady Bunch, look at the Miss
Brady. She wasn't wearing dresses.
She was like in pantsuits and very much what was going on in
the 70s. And the girls, Marsha and Jan,
they were wearing the dresses. So the So all that was all in
there. So I got a little taste of
(11:44):
different eras because syndicated television is not
happening today, is happening however many years before when
it was aired for the first time.So yeah, I saw a little of
everything. But for some reason, for me, a
line dresses, heels, the perfectface in terms of like always.
Made out. Yeah, it was always like the go
to for my stereotypes. Yeah.
(12:06):
And I think that for me, when I think about my mother or
something that she was very loudabout in terms of what true
femininity was for her. Not for me, and not even for me
in the sense that she made sure I even did these things and
these things meaning she always made sure that she had makeup
(12:28):
on. And I always watched her being
able to put lipstick on in her car without a mirror, right?
Regardless of the fact that she didn't directly say let's go get
you makeup, not once. She didn't Take Me Out to go get
makeup. It wasn't a part of her
maternal, let's raise a femininechild.
I just knew that for her, that was what it was to be feminine
(12:52):
was the makeup. I heard her on more than one
event quote rescue with another friend, a woman who was a
certain age and not wearing makeup, and go to her house,
rescue her and take her to CVS where she then forced feminized
style minus the chloroform to pick out different lipsticks and
(13:13):
whatever to make her the best version of herself in terms of
what is appropriate for my mom'sversion of femininity.
Now I had another woman in my life that was an even bigger
influence to me, which was her best friend growing up since the
age of three, where she was the opposite of that.
She wore no makeup. She was a witchy woman.
(13:35):
She bathed herself in garlic cloves, didn't wear a bra, had
hippie hair was that opposite example for me of what
femininity was and can be and is.
So I had this whole kind of nicebalance for me in terms of
understanding. But if we were going to take a
(13:55):
look at, let's say the quote, typical 1950s through the ages
of heightened femininity as it pertains today.
So if someone was like, oh, my little girl is so feminine, look
at what she's doing. And it shows her in her mom's
makeup, doing the facials and doing all these types of things.
(14:17):
For some little girls, that's just a part of it.
That's a part of what they get into and also for some little
boys, until it's told no, you don't do this, they're just
drawn to that heightened feminine space to be in.
For myself, I've never been really into makeup.
(14:39):
For me, my major discovery and my major point of rage,
basically when I became a motherand when I realized that having
that baby, I was able to see myself as the most beautiful
version of myself. And I never saw myself as
beautiful. But somehow motherhood shine
that light of beauty on me in a way that made me really upset
(15:02):
because when I looked in the mirror, I'm like, I've never
felt or looked more beautiful and I don't have a stitch of
makeup on. And fuck you for not thinking I
was beautiful without F you for convincing me that beauty and
makeup was somehow the secret tosuccess.
Because that's not true. And so when I kind of review
(15:25):
through having a daughter, through my own evolution,
through my own stereotypes of what is and what isn't feminine
for me, I've really been able tonavigate these waters with my
clients as it pertains to their moving from male to female in
terms of their aesthetic. A lot of people of a certain
(15:45):
age, when they do connect with me, they have these ideas of
what femininity is for them. And it starts to this like 1950s
Leave it to Beaver heightened sense of femininity, so much so
that their womanhood is wrapped up in that idea that I am not
(16:05):
woman enough if I don't have let's fill in the blank.
The first thing that came to me is heels.
So, you know, when they're thinking about the rules that
they must have to achieve this aesthetic, it started out the
heels and the big breasts. Without those two things, it
(16:27):
wouldn't be for complete and of course wouldn't be complete
without the perfect hair, right?So all of those factors just had
to be. And a lot of the work is saying,
let's look at this from a different lens right now.
You're naturally 6 foot 5 or 6 foot 6 foot four, and you want
to wear heels and you want to goout into the world and be this
(16:50):
woman. And yes, you and I have argued
back and forth about this point.Or we've come to a place where
if you want, you're already tall, might as well stand out
and be extra tall, but also knowthat you can wear flats and
still achieve comfort and safetyin your body and that
femininity. So I know that I have quickly
(17:12):
expressed all the different angles of this topic as it comes
out for me initially. But I'd love to hear from you
about anything that I've said that's landed with you or
anything that recalls certain memories in your life where when
you were designing your own Savannah or your own idea of how
femininity must look for you, what was that like?
(17:35):
What was that process like? Looking back to my process, it
was a lot of ad hoc stuff from the age of pre adolescence to
early 20s. There was a lot of grabbing what
you could. So there was really no sense of
style in any of that. When I went to New York and I
started having dead mothers and my wife was there at the time
(17:57):
and anything that was shiny, like any slipping dress that was
like satiny and shiny, I was allabout that.
So that was always like, even now, even now, if I go anywhere
to a store and I see something that's satiny on the rack, I'm
going to go to it first and pusheverybody aside because I want
to. I want to see what that thing
is. And then I'm like, oh, no, it's
(18:17):
not stretchy. And so that's always my go to.
That's always been whatever. Yeah, maybe that's the
superheroine side. That's got to be shiny and
bright and sparkly and those things always attract me.
That being said, the one thing you said about, well, it starts
with the boobs and the hair in the face.
And like sometimes that's the driver from a male perspective
(18:41):
that is wanting to emulate femininity.
And it always starts with I needto have cleavage and I need to
have curves. I need to have these things.
And it brought the idea, a CIS woman feeling that a male to
female crossdresser is objectifying womanhood.
It could start with the fact of what you said.
I have to have these big breasts.
(19:01):
It's got to be overt and over the top.
And it ends up kind of feeling like we're fetishizing the
female form, that we're like, oh, that's what you see in The
Hustle or in Playboy, they got to be these like little bitty
waist and these huge booties andbig tits.
And that's what femininity is interms of the shape, the eternal
(19:26):
shape before you put clothes on it even.
And so there's the idea that like, oh, I see what you think
the female shape should be in that.
Shape. Yeah, what you like and what you
think femininity is. And so me quote, UN quote as a
natural female is put off by thefact that like what you feel is
feminine is this very exaggerated curvaceous form that
(19:50):
most women do not have. And therefore I can absolutely
see how a woman would be like, oh, that's the way you're coming
out looking like you're Jessica Rabbit or Dolly Parton or like
Elvira, that everything's got tobe heaving out of you.
So therefore that's what feminine means to you is like.
All you're doing is making a fetishized caricature of what
(20:10):
you think a woman is. So that were you saying that
kind of elicited that idea that I can see why a woman looking
like OK, do the reveal or they come out just ow everything is.
Just I know. And like, oh, that's what you
think a woman should be? I know.
And we have kind of skirted overthis, pun intended now.
Gotcha. We have skirted over this issue.
(20:33):
We have returned to it so many times with episodes, with Judy,
with episodes, early days, middle days.
Nowadays it's so hard on the significant other in so many
different ways. And one of the ways is this idea
that this is what they want. Well, how did they want me?
(20:56):
Because I'm not this and they can't look at me and say like
you have told me, I said to Judy, I love you for you and all
the ways that you show up for your femininity, correct?
For me, I need to show up this way to feel fully female and
this and that. But I love you for you and I
(21:16):
love when you get dressed up. But I think you know what's sexy
for you is sexy to me because it's you and all that is I
believe you, correct? I totally believe you.
One, because I know both of you and two, because I know both of
you I know it to be true and andat the same time it is really
(21:36):
hard to convince anyone, including me, your Co host, that
you don't find the way you dressand what you're attracted to,
the feminine what you're attracted to.
So just by nature, you are goingto be less attracted to the
(21:58):
maybe the bohemian aesthetic as it pertains to Judy, even if
she's this beautiful hot glamazon goddess, right?
And you can still find that attractive.
But it feels like a lie or a slap in our face or a a
wrestling point in the brain andin the heart of the significant
(22:18):
other because they think to themselves, not only do I not
want to be that, but I must not be that feminine.
I could never achieve that. And that's what they want for
themselves. So I love them.
And I believe them when they saythey're still attracted to me,
but they also at the same breath.
And I know both can be true at the same time.
(22:39):
And this is what we're honoring.That both can be true at the
same time is the fact that I am not achieving that level of
femininity that they are seeking.
Yeah. And so right then and there,
that feels like a heightened level of objectification coming
from the perspective of perhaps a significant other, assist
(23:03):
significant other who has spent years and years and years on
behalf of the expectations of beauty and women and finding
their own beauty and what that means for them.
And saying, you know what, I have a partner that has this
this side to them and this yearning and this desire and
this obsession with this heightened sense of femininity
(23:24):
that makes me feel and then fillin the blank of all that kind of
insecurity stuff that I said. And so as I'm taking a moment to
pause and digest what I just shared with you, Savannah and
everyone, there's this sense of grief that I have come to
understand from the significant other, the CIS significant other
(23:48):
and this level of acceptance to be able to say, OK, this cross
dressing individual chose me. They're attracted to me.
This is their own journey when it comes to their femininity and
what they find attractive. And I'm I just have to support
them. So it's it definitely is a topic
(24:10):
for today, but it definitely is a theme that seems to move in
and out of unpacking and understanding the cross dressing
experience as it pertains to those within the very close
circle of the cross dresser or the dual gender individual.
Yeah, I mean, raise the point ofyou see what your gender diverse
(24:32):
partner presents and you're likeroof.
I don't wear thigh high boots and a leather skirt and a halter
top. And if that's what you think
femininity is, like you said, I'm not that person.
Is that what you want me to be? Which then is very black and
white thinking, very cognitive, distorted thinking of AFX.
(24:53):
It has to be Y. We all have beauty.
The way I see it, every female comes with their own beauty that
they, like you said, refined. They've spent a lifetime finding
their pocket. What makes them feel most
feminine or not even just most feminine, most real and
authentic to themselves, right. And you said the second thing,
which is well, when you guys gottogether, the two of you, maybe
(25:16):
before you knew they were diverse inner gender or maybe
you knew from day one and they liked you for you.
They were liking you because they were reflection of
themselves. That's to be considered.
But this idea that I do this bigreveal with my girlfriend and
I'm like epitomizing and maybe nearly fetishizing the blueprint
(25:41):
of what I find to be my femininity, that is not a
blueprint for my partner to try to emulate because that's my
expectation of them. And I know a lot of sis females,
a lot of sis partners see that as oof.
I'm not feminine enough based onwhat I'm seeing my partner
present. I had a friend, I'm friends with
(26:04):
the sis partner and she and her partner did like a Barbie night.
So they both dressed up in blonde wigs and pink dresses.
And that. Yeah.
And they like, like both objectified this ideal of always
have this Barbie night and like champagne and strawberries and
just made this kind of heightened event happen.
That doesn't mean either of themare walking around like a Barbie
(26:27):
every time they dress up. It just means that they were
able to tap into that, that whether you want to call a
parody or this heightened sense or this very thematic sense of
femininity that they both enjoyed.
And each of us is absolutely, we're entitled.
We are absolutely entitled to the sense of femininity that we
(26:48):
feel works best for us. And as you probably know from
knowing me for all these years, my tastes have changed a little
bit. It's like we're not one and
done. If I show up and say I'm doing a
French maid, well, that might just be because I have never
done it and I really want to tryit and see how it feels.
But that doesn't mean that everytime I go to Starbucks I'm going
to be dressed up as a French maid.
Just means that I'm trying on different totes and different
(27:11):
dresses and see how it feels to me.
And also over the years, you tend to find that comfort zone
in my comfort zone may not be jeans or likings necessarily, it
might always be a dress, but it's not going to be like, oh, I
got to be like Sunday best everytime I go, wow, I'm starting to
get a little bit more casual. So it's a process, it's a
(27:32):
journey. Our sense of femininity for
ourselves is just as fluid as our gender fluidity because
we're always trying to like, tweak and perfect and make it
more us. Yes, totally.
I just pulled a Savannah and I actually came with some research
by came with, I mean while you were talking and I typed it, I
(27:57):
typed it to Chat GPTI said Ken. I said please come up with a
list of five ways crossdressers can objectify women.
And so it's that here's a list of five ways cross dressers can
unintentionally or intentionallyobjectify women.
(28:17):
OK, And we may or may not have touched upon all these thus far,
but it will be interesting to goover what they came up with.
So the first one is reducing femininity to stereotypes, which
is something that we already covered at the top of the
episode. When femininity is expressed
solely through exaggerated tropes like only focusing on the
(28:41):
high heels, the makeup, the lingerie, or submission, it can
flatten womanhood into a costumeor performance rather than
acknowledge the diverse and complex realities of being a
woman. Now, this is ChatGPT.
This is not Savannah and Julie. This is not the exact perfect
(29:02):
beautiful outline for the peopleof the people by the people.
But it does certainly touch uponwhat we've been saying about
pulling from stereotypes. And although I don't believe
that this kind of heightened sense when you apply all of the
additives that make someone the premier stereotype of womanhood,
(29:25):
I wouldn't say that it's a costume.
But it certainly is an outfit that represents 1's belief in
terms of how this individual feels like a woman must be in
order for them to feel complete in their presentation.
Right. Come on, you look at every era
of female fashion. Of course it it.
(29:46):
Became as as each era changed, the previous era was they've
become a stereotype of that era.So that 50s housewife ideal
changed in the 60s and the 70s and the 80s of what that's
supposed to look like. So absolutely, we're all drawing
from something that was considered the societal norm of
(30:08):
that time period, and it just really depends on when you grew
up or what influences you had. Absolutely.
Right, because at some point heels went from something that
was just meant for, this is highsociety man with the wig that
was very different to something that women rocked at some point.
(30:29):
So yes, a historical perspective, yes.
Figuring out when exactly in history this started and how it
shifted between the genders is also another interesting way to
approach this as well #2 sexualizing women.
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, Julie. Yes.
Man, we're going crazy along with this episode.
(30:51):
Do you think we can pick it up next week?
I think that that will be great because obviously there's a lot
to say and only a little bit of time.
So I think that that that soundslike a plan and you all are
going to have to wait till next week to hear the rest of this
juicy topic and I hope that everyone is as excited as we
(31:13):
are. So bye for now.
Until next time, you can find meon Facebook at Savannah Hawk or
at Living with Cross Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah
Hawk. Remember, that's HAUK and to
learn more, go to my website livingwithcrossdressing.com.
(31:35):
And you can find me on Instagramand Facebook at Fox and Hanger
or at Julie MTF Style, as well as on our website at
foxandhanger.com. Julie, it's your moment.
The Fox and the Phoenix podcast uses Spotify for creators.
Copyright 2025. Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
cross dressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Hello, Miss Rubenstein.
Hello, Julie. How are you?
I missed you. I missed you too.
It feels like only yesterday that we were in the same place
(00:51):
at the same time. We were actually, it was only a
couple days ago that we were recording an episode.
And it's because we have so muchlove and wisdom and knowledge to
Kim. No, no, I mean like, yes, same
place on time. You me here at the podcast, but
I'm talking about, you know it. We love it, Keystone.
(01:12):
Oh, Keystone man, that's been. Weeks ago.
Oh. My God, that's like, you know,
so one month ago. Still, still without looking at
the powers of Bee and the the magic of the edits and timing.
It was still a moment that I will cherish till the next time.
(01:35):
Absolutely, as I remember the year of my virginal oh first
stomach key still what to do, who to me, what am I going to do
was ended up being fantastic andevery year just only gets better
and better. And I surprised you.
No, that's the point. I surprised you.
I know you did. But yeah, we talked so much
about that last time about the surprise.
(01:56):
Nothing's ever been compared to it.
Nothing happened. This can't compare to it.
And one of the things you had mentioned in last week's
unraveling of the reveal, your epic, deceitful and underhanded
and shenanigan filled reveal of you surprised me.
The keystone was something that we had talked about that, you
(02:16):
know, hey, we got a lot of ideasand a lot of things that you and
I both wrote down as where to gofrom here.
It's like you can't just go to keystone and not come away with
something we can't. I broke down tons of things, and
I know you did as well. And one of the things that came
from, and we talked about it very briefly last week in the
last episode was during my workshop, there was an attendee
(02:42):
who raised her hand and said, what do you say?
Meaning me? I was like, well, what do you
say to a partner who says to me that they think that all I am
doing when I cross dress is objectifying women?
It's like it took me a second tosituate myself in it.
I think I did an OK job answering.
You also added in a couple of pennies for their thoughts and
(03:07):
added your own spin on what it might mean to objectify
somebody, band dressing as a woman and add that as
objectification of a CIS woman. It was something I wrote down
because I thought it was really important.
And right before this recording,I was sitting with Judy telling
her what the topic was. And she said to me, it's like,
Oh no, I've never thought you were objectifying women.
(03:29):
You were just trying to find your femininity and however that
look. But she says in all the things
you've done and all the things you've worn, whether I thought
the headline was too short or not, she never thought I was out
there locking or objectifying women in any way.
So I wanted to talk about that today.
Well, I Riddle me this. I want to talk about that too.
(03:54):
What? What?
What? Well, then I guess we're all in
the right place, so buckle in everybody.
Yeah, strap on your tits for this.
Maybe do a little talcum powder 'cause this is gonna be.
This is gonna be a fantastic episode.
OK, so this actually came up a few weeks ago when I was talking
to a client and they were going over their cross dressing as it
(04:20):
pertains to I kink or reviewing their cross dressing in a way
that is a little bit more naughty, if you will, right.
And and as they were reviewing it with me, they weren't able to
really fully dive into the heartof what's been going on with
them, how they feel about the feminine, how it relates to them
(04:44):
without no pun intended. Skirting.
Get it? Skirting around the issue of and
I quote, my mom has always told me to treat women with respect
and so which is what I said and so let's talk about that.
And that is just the idea in order for individuals, some
(05:07):
individuals to fully lean back and accept that the taboo of
their cross dressing means owning a part of their of
femininity that is a little edgy, that is heightened, that
is overly sexualized, that is, let's say larger than life or
plays on some of the stereotypes, whether it be the
(05:28):
breasts or the hip pads or wanting to feel cheap or overly
sexualized. In this case, it involves
getting into a headspace where maybe they are wrestling with
the objectification of women in a way that feels so wrong that
they can't even get into the pocket of their cross dressing,
(05:49):
if that makes sense, because they love women, they worship
women. And when they go into this cross
dressing space, it is a kinky space.
It is a sexualized place and they have trouble.
They have a block in their head because they're thinking, well,
I don't want to disrespectful. I don't want to just disrespect
(06:10):
women, ma'am. I mean, literally that was how
it was presented to me was with a lot of great respect with a
ma'am after the sentence and that wrestling match.
Loving an entity, a female so much that even embodying or
experiencing it just a little bit sends them into this trauma
(06:31):
response that they are undoing all of the things that their mom
raised them to be a respectful, kind, open the door for women
kind of human. So I, I really do think that
when you brought up this topic to me, I was able to pinpoint
this one conversation I had withthe client and really bring it
to the table as only one of the aspects when talking about the
(06:54):
larger discussion that we're going to have today.
Love it and it just proves that within a month period of time I
had the question come up and that we were able to answer at
Keystone. You've had a client that is
wrestling with it in their own mind.
So again, the two the sides are at play.
One was being told by assist female from the workshop point
(07:18):
of view that they think that thecrossdresser or gender expensive
person is mocking or objectifying what it is to be a
woman. And then from your point of view
or from your client's point of view, they are wrestling within
about how they approach their femininity feels like they are
objectifying women. And you know, we're not saying
all CIS women feel this way. We're not saying that all male,
(07:41):
female trans folks are thinking this way, yet it's so indicative
to our society. I think the first thing we
should talk about is stereotypes.
You know, we're all coming at this thing, the presentation
perceived and how we want to present kind of always starts
with a stereotype. And we talked about this two
podcasts ago about body language, where we are coming at
(08:03):
the thing of like, how do we emote and present our femininity
in our identity and presentation?
And it's all going to start off with some semblance of a
feminine stereotype that each ofus have come to know as our
starting point of our femininity.
And. When we think about this topic,
(08:25):
we must go back to the origin story we must go back to that
stereotypical view of what is woman for you, meaning how did
we come to understand femininity?
How do we come to understand womanhood and unpack that?
Because that 1950s Greek goddesslike place is femininity in
(08:47):
terms of how we express it, at the heart of it, right at the
definition of it. If it was to look up what is
femininity in the books of the 1950s or in the books of even
further than that, or what is ittoday?
It is the spectrum. So there's all these different
ways in which this topic can land.
(09:10):
But like you said, we need to start from the beginning of the
stereotype and kind of talk about what is it, what does it
look like, and then move from that space.
So when you think about this kind of heightened sense of
femininity, what does it look like to you, Savannah?
What would you say? From my personal perspective,
(09:33):
it's funny you say that. Get a group watching syndicated
television with Leave It to Beaver.
I watched Wonder Woman WKRP in Cincinnati, so in my early 80s.
Influences our Wonder Woman, ourLonnie Anderson, our June
Cleaver. So I've I've seen the gamut of
the heels and Pearl in dress as a homemaker and then the other
(09:55):
side of this very sexy body con super heroine.
So if I've seen all the sides ofit.
But that being said, what my first influence was what I saw
at home. So while I had all these
external influences from television and media, I also had
what was available to me. While my mother was not one to
(10:17):
walk around in dresses everyday,neither was my sister.
They all were fairly casual in like how they dress, but there
was just something about being able to have access to a pair of
kitten heels and a silk slip andlong line bra.
Those things were available to me and they just informed and
influenced like how I could moveforward because I only had what
(10:40):
was available. It's not like I was had money to
go buy something that's seven years old to for myself.
So it's all borrowed in use. But the idea of this heightened,
I don't know, like Pearl wearing, Pearl necklace wearing
homemaker, very elevated, very classic in terms of wearing the
(11:00):
dress and the heels and stockings was always very much
something I liked from everyday point of view because I could
definitely look at Lynda Carter and know that was not
appropriate. You're not going to go out,
dress away. Because she was obviously a
little more fantasy and it derived from reality.
(11:24):
So for me, it was always like looking at those 1950s and 60s
people, because you look at the Brady Bunch, look at the Miss
Brady. She wasn't wearing dresses.
She was like in pantsuits and very much what was going on in
the 70s. And the girls, Marsha and Jan,
they were wearing the dresses. So the So all that was all in
there. So I got a little taste of
(11:44):
different eras because syndicated television is not
happening today, is happening however many years before when
it was aired for the first time.So yeah, I saw a little of
everything. But for some reason, for me, a
line dresses, heels, the perfectface in terms of like always.
Made out. Yeah, it was always like the go
to for my stereotypes. Yeah.
(12:06):
And I think that for me, when I think about my mother or
something that she was very loudabout in terms of what true
femininity was for her. Not for me, and not even for me
in the sense that she made sure I even did these things and
these things meaning she always made sure that she had makeup
(12:28):
on. And I always watched her being
able to put lipstick on in her car without a mirror, right?
Regardless of the fact that she didn't directly say let's go get
you makeup, not once. She didn't Take Me Out to go get
makeup. It wasn't a part of her
maternal, let's raise a femininechild.
I just knew that for her, that was what it was to be feminine
(12:52):
was the makeup. I heard her on more than one
event quote rescue with another friend, a woman who was a
certain age and not wearing makeup, and go to her house,
rescue her and take her to CVS where she then forced feminized
style minus the chloroform to pick out different lipsticks and
(13:13):
whatever to make her the best version of herself in terms of
what is appropriate for my mom'sversion of femininity.
Now I had another woman in my life that was an even bigger
influence to me, which was her best friend growing up since the
age of three, where she was the opposite of that.
She wore no makeup. She was a witchy woman.
(13:35):
She bathed herself in garlic cloves, didn't wear a bra, had
hippie hair was that opposite example for me of what
femininity was and can be and is.
So I had this whole kind of nicebalance for me in terms of
understanding. But if we were going to take a
(13:55):
look at, let's say the quote, typical 1950s through the ages
of heightened femininity as it pertains today.
So if someone was like, oh, my little girl is so feminine, look
at what she's doing. And it shows her in her mom's
makeup, doing the facials and doing all these types of things.
(14:17):
For some little girls, that's just a part of it.
That's a part of what they get into and also for some little
boys, until it's told no, you don't do this, they're just
drawn to that heightened feminine space to be in.
For myself, I've never been really into makeup.
(14:39):
For me, my major discovery and my major point of rage,
basically when I became a motherand when I realized that having
that baby, I was able to see myself as the most beautiful
version of myself. And I never saw myself as
beautiful. But somehow motherhood shine
that light of beauty on me in a way that made me really upset
(15:02):
because when I looked in the mirror, I'm like, I've never
felt or looked more beautiful and I don't have a stitch of
makeup on. And fuck you for not thinking I
was beautiful without F you for convincing me that beauty and
makeup was somehow the secret tosuccess.
Because that's not true. And so when I kind of review
(15:25):
through having a daughter, through my own evolution,
through my own stereotypes of what is and what isn't feminine
for me, I've really been able tonavigate these waters with my
clients as it pertains to their moving from male to female in
terms of their aesthetic. A lot of people of a certain
(15:45):
age, when they do connect with me, they have these ideas of
what femininity is for them. And it starts to this like 1950s
Leave it to Beaver heightened sense of femininity, so much so
that their womanhood is wrapped up in that idea that I am not
(16:05):
woman enough if I don't have let's fill in the blank.
The first thing that came to me is heels.
So, you know, when they're thinking about the rules that
they must have to achieve this aesthetic, it started out the
heels and the big breasts. Without those two things, it
(16:27):
wouldn't be for complete and of course wouldn't be complete
without the perfect hair, right?So all of those factors just had
to be. And a lot of the work is saying,
let's look at this from a different lens right now.
You're naturally 6 foot 5 or 6 foot 6 foot four, and you want
to wear heels and you want to goout into the world and be this
(16:50):
woman. And yes, you and I have argued
back and forth about this point.Or we've come to a place where
if you want, you're already tall, might as well stand out
and be extra tall, but also knowthat you can wear flats and
still achieve comfort and safetyin your body and that
femininity. So I know that I have quickly
(17:12):
expressed all the different angles of this topic as it comes
out for me initially. But I'd love to hear from you
about anything that I've said that's landed with you or
anything that recalls certain memories in your life where when
you were designing your own Savannah or your own idea of how
femininity must look for you, what was that like?
(17:35):
What was that process like? Looking back to my process, it
was a lot of ad hoc stuff from the age of pre adolescence to
early 20s. There was a lot of grabbing what
you could. So there was really no sense of
style in any of that. When I went to New York and I
started having dead mothers and my wife was there at the time
(17:57):
and anything that was shiny, like any slipping dress that was
like satiny and shiny, I was allabout that.
So that was always like, even now, even now, if I go anywhere
to a store and I see something that's satiny on the rack, I'm
going to go to it first and pusheverybody aside because I want
to. I want to see what that thing
is. And then I'm like, oh, no, it's
(18:17):
not stretchy. And so that's always my go to.
That's always been whatever. Yeah, maybe that's the
superheroine side. That's got to be shiny and
bright and sparkly and those things always attract me.
That being said, the one thing you said about, well, it starts
with the boobs and the hair in the face.
And like sometimes that's the driver from a male perspective
(18:41):
that is wanting to emulate femininity.
And it always starts with I needto have cleavage and I need to
have curves. I need to have these things.
And it brought the idea, a CIS woman feeling that a male to
female crossdresser is objectifying womanhood.
It could start with the fact of what you said.
I have to have these big breasts.
(19:01):
It's got to be overt and over the top.
And it ends up kind of feeling like we're fetishizing the
female form, that we're like, oh, that's what you see in The
Hustle or in Playboy, they got to be these like little bitty
waist and these huge booties andbig tits.
And that's what femininity is interms of the shape, the eternal
(19:26):
shape before you put clothes on it even.
And so there's the idea that like, oh, I see what you think
the female shape should be in that.
Shape. Yeah, what you like and what you
think femininity is. And so me quote, UN quote as a
natural female is put off by thefact that like what you feel is
feminine is this very exaggerated curvaceous form that
(19:50):
most women do not have. And therefore I can absolutely
see how a woman would be like, oh, that's the way you're coming
out looking like you're Jessica Rabbit or Dolly Parton or like
Elvira, that everything's got tobe heaving out of you.
So therefore that's what feminine means to you is like.
All you're doing is making a fetishized caricature of what
(20:10):
you think a woman is. So that were you saying that
kind of elicited that idea that I can see why a woman looking
like OK, do the reveal or they come out just ow everything is.
Just I know. And like, oh, that's what you
think a woman should be? I know.
And we have kind of skirted overthis, pun intended now.
Gotcha. We have skirted over this issue.
(20:33):
We have returned to it so many times with episodes, with Judy,
with episodes, early days, middle days.
Nowadays it's so hard on the significant other in so many
different ways. And one of the ways is this idea
that this is what they want. Well, how did they want me?
(20:56):
Because I'm not this and they can't look at me and say like
you have told me, I said to Judy, I love you for you and all
the ways that you show up for your femininity, correct?
For me, I need to show up this way to feel fully female and
this and that. But I love you for you and I
(21:16):
love when you get dressed up. But I think you know what's sexy
for you is sexy to me because it's you and all that is I
believe you, correct? I totally believe you.
One, because I know both of you and two, because I know both of
you I know it to be true and andat the same time it is really
(21:36):
hard to convince anyone, including me, your Co host, that
you don't find the way you dressand what you're attracted to,
the feminine what you're attracted to.
So just by nature, you are goingto be less attracted to the
(21:58):
maybe the bohemian aesthetic as it pertains to Judy, even if
she's this beautiful hot glamazon goddess, right?
And you can still find that attractive.
But it feels like a lie or a slap in our face or a a
wrestling point in the brain andin the heart of the significant
(22:18):
other because they think to themselves, not only do I not
want to be that, but I must not be that feminine.
I could never achieve that. And that's what they want for
themselves. So I love them.
And I believe them when they saythey're still attracted to me,
but they also at the same breath.
And I know both can be true at the same time.
(22:39):
And this is what we're honoring.That both can be true at the
same time is the fact that I am not achieving that level of
femininity that they are seeking.
Yeah. And so right then and there,
that feels like a heightened level of objectification coming
from the perspective of perhaps a significant other, assist
(23:03):
significant other who has spent years and years and years on
behalf of the expectations of beauty and women and finding
their own beauty and what that means for them.
And saying, you know what, I have a partner that has this
this side to them and this yearning and this desire and
this obsession with this heightened sense of femininity
(23:24):
that makes me feel and then fillin the blank of all that kind of
insecurity stuff that I said. And so as I'm taking a moment to
pause and digest what I just shared with you, Savannah and
everyone, there's this sense of grief that I have come to
understand from the significant other, the CIS significant other
(23:48):
and this level of acceptance to be able to say, OK, this cross
dressing individual chose me. They're attracted to me.
This is their own journey when it comes to their femininity and
what they find attractive. And I'm I just have to support
them. So it's it definitely is a topic
(24:10):
for today, but it definitely is a theme that seems to move in
and out of unpacking and understanding the cross dressing
experience as it pertains to those within the very close
circle of the cross dresser or the dual gender individual.
Yeah, I mean, raise the point ofyou see what your gender diverse
(24:32):
partner presents and you're likeroof.
I don't wear thigh high boots and a leather skirt and a halter
top. And if that's what you think
femininity is, like you said, I'm not that person.
Is that what you want me to be? Which then is very black and
white thinking, very cognitive, distorted thinking of AFX.
(24:53):
It has to be Y. We all have beauty.
The way I see it, every female comes with their own beauty that
they, like you said, refined. They've spent a lifetime finding
their pocket. What makes them feel most
feminine or not even just most feminine, most real and
authentic to themselves, right. And you said the second thing,
which is well, when you guys gottogether, the two of you, maybe
(25:16):
before you knew they were diverse inner gender or maybe
you knew from day one and they liked you for you.
They were liking you because they were reflection of
themselves. That's to be considered.
But this idea that I do this bigreveal with my girlfriend and
I'm like epitomizing and maybe nearly fetishizing the blueprint
(25:41):
of what I find to be my femininity, that is not a
blueprint for my partner to try to emulate because that's my
expectation of them. And I know a lot of sis females,
a lot of sis partners see that as oof.
I'm not feminine enough based onwhat I'm seeing my partner
present. I had a friend, I'm friends with
(26:04):
the sis partner and she and her partner did like a Barbie night.
So they both dressed up in blonde wigs and pink dresses.
And that. Yeah.
And they like, like both objectified this ideal of always
have this Barbie night and like champagne and strawberries and
just made this kind of heightened event happen.
That doesn't mean either of themare walking around like a Barbie
(26:27):
every time they dress up. It just means that they were
able to tap into that, that whether you want to call a
parody or this heightened sense or this very thematic sense of
femininity that they both enjoyed.
And each of us is absolutely, we're entitled.
We are absolutely entitled to the sense of femininity that we
(26:48):
feel works best for us. And as you probably know from
knowing me for all these years, my tastes have changed a little
bit. It's like we're not one and
done. If I show up and say I'm doing a
French maid, well, that might just be because I have never
done it and I really want to tryit and see how it feels.
But that doesn't mean that everytime I go to Starbucks I'm going
to be dressed up as a French maid.
Just means that I'm trying on different totes and different
(27:11):
dresses and see how it feels to me.
And also over the years, you tend to find that comfort zone
in my comfort zone may not be jeans or likings necessarily, it
might always be a dress, but it's not going to be like, oh, I
got to be like Sunday best everytime I go, wow, I'm starting to
get a little bit more casual. So it's a process, it's a
(27:32):
journey. Our sense of femininity for
ourselves is just as fluid as our gender fluidity because
we're always trying to like, tweak and perfect and make it
more us. Yes, totally.
I just pulled a Savannah and I actually came with some research
by came with, I mean while you were talking and I typed it, I
(27:57):
typed it to Chat GPTI said Ken. I said please come up with a
list of five ways crossdressers can objectify women.
And so it's that here's a list of five ways cross dressers can
unintentionally or intentionallyobjectify women.
(28:17):
OK, And we may or may not have touched upon all these thus far,
but it will be interesting to goover what they came up with.
So the first one is reducing femininity to stereotypes, which
is something that we already covered at the top of the
episode. When femininity is expressed
solely through exaggerated tropes like only focusing on the
(28:41):
high heels, the makeup, the lingerie, or submission, it can
flatten womanhood into a costumeor performance rather than
acknowledge the diverse and complex realities of being a
woman. Now, this is ChatGPT.
This is not Savannah and Julie. This is not the exact perfect
(29:02):
beautiful outline for the peopleof the people by the people.
But it does certainly touch uponwhat we've been saying about
pulling from stereotypes. And although I don't believe
that this kind of heightened sense when you apply all of the
additives that make someone the premier stereotype of womanhood,
(29:25):
I wouldn't say that it's a costume.
But it certainly is an outfit that represents 1's belief in
terms of how this individual feels like a woman must be in
order for them to feel complete in their presentation.
Right. Come on, you look at every era
of female fashion. Of course it it.
(29:46):
Became as as each era changed, the previous era was they've
become a stereotype of that era.So that 50s housewife ideal
changed in the 60s and the 70s and the 80s of what that's
supposed to look like. So absolutely, we're all drawing
from something that was considered the societal norm of
(30:08):
that time period, and it just really depends on when you grew
up or what influences you had. Absolutely.
Right, because at some point heels went from something that
was just meant for, this is highsociety man with the wig that
was very different to something that women rocked at some point.
(30:29):
So yes, a historical perspective, yes.
Figuring out when exactly in history this started and how it
shifted between the genders is also another interesting way to
approach this as well #2 sexualizing women.
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, Julie. Yes.
Man, we're going crazy along with this episode.
(30:51):
Do you think we can pick it up next week?
I think that that will be great because obviously there's a lot
to say and only a little bit of time.
So I think that that that soundslike a plan and you all are
going to have to wait till next week to hear the rest of this
juicy topic and I hope that everyone is as excited as we
(31:13):
are. So bye for now.
Until next time, you can find meon Facebook at Savannah Hawk or
at Living with Cross Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah
Hawk. Remember, that's HAUK and to
learn more, go to my website livingwithcrossdressing.com.
(31:35):
And you can find me on Instagramand Facebook at Fox and Hanger
or at Julie MTF Style, as well as on our website at
foxandhanger.com. Julie, it's your moment.
The Fox and the Phoenix podcast uses Spotify for creators.
Copyright 2025. Yes, nailed it.
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It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.