May 7, 2025 • 29 mins
In this second of two episodes, Savannah and Julie continue to discuss the same topic! After the March excitement of the 2025 Keystone Conference in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, our cohosts delve deeper into a question that was brought up during Savannah's workshop, "Why might a cis-gender female partner think that their crossdressing counterpart is objectifying womanhood and femininity when they dress up as a female"?
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, Understanding
the feminine cross wrestling experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross wrestler,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker and author of the Living
with Cross Wrestling book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hey. Julie, hi, Savannah.
Just going to ask how you are today.
I am chomping at the bit to get back into this topic because
yeah, we had a lot going on and you know this were stolen.
(00:52):
Yeah, sorry. But it was all amazing and I
want to just keep going because I, I feel this is super
important to have for our amazing femme folks and their
sis partners. Oh, I like the way you said
that. Can you do that again?
(01:12):
Oh, that was very feminine. So let's get started.
All right, awesome. Here we go.
I pulled a Savannah and I actually came with some research
by came with, I mean, while you were talking and I typed it, I
typed it to Chat. GPTI said please come up with a
(01:33):
list of five ways crossdressers can objectify women.
And so it said, here's a list offive ways crossdressers can
unintentionally or intentionallyobjectify women.
OK, so the first one, reducing femininity to stereotypes, which
is something that we already covered at the top of the
(01:55):
episode. When femininity is expressed
solely through exaggerated tropes like only focusing on the
high heels, the makeup, the lingerie, or submission, it can
flatten womanhood into a costumeor performance rather than
acknowledge the diverse and complex realities of being a
woman #2 sexualizing women. In some cases, cross dressing is
(02:19):
rooted in erotic or fetish basedexperiences, which is valid as a
personal kink. But if that's the only extent in
which women quote, quote or woman quote, quote, excuse me,
is embraced or expressed, it canframe femininity solely as a
sexual object rather than a human identity.
(02:43):
I totally agree with that because as you're saying that
I'm thinking, one of the things to this day that I super, super,
super enjoy is my lingerie is myunderdressing, is my wanting.
Even if it's a body shaper from Shaper Mint.
There's something about the structural part, the things that
(03:03):
most people are not looking at, that is very appealing to me.
I love the building up of my outfit and it's all coming from
from the ground up. My my hose, my matching bra,
panty sets, the waist censure. All those things are things that
most women generally are not wearing on the daily.
(03:24):
But for me, yes, it is imperative for the shape of me,
but it's also something that revelant.
I love like the soft finish. I love the things that are
matching, the lace, the satin. Those appeal to me.
And you could call it fetishizing and sexualizing, and
maybe it is. I'm not saying it isn't.
But it does give me a little heightened sense of femininity
(03:47):
because that's like in my brain when I was looking at the Sears
catalog when I was seven years old.
And the whole first part is all about the women's fashion and
lingerie and how they wore karger.
The shapewear had garters on theends of it that was very much
like, Oh my God, that's very erotic and exotic.
And no, I'm not doing that. But there is a lot to be said
(04:08):
for that central component of the dress that is really just
for me. And then the line dress or the
blouse skirt combo go on over that.
And it really is wholly just forme as something that gives me
the feminine vibes in a lot of ways.
Yeah. And as someone who has a deep
respect and understanding and has worked with and honors the
(04:32):
kind of full spectrum of the feminine cross dressing
experience from those who view feminine dress as an overtly
sexual action and as a kink to those who seek it on a more
normalized, less heightened space.
I find this a really interestingthing to to just be with in
(04:55):
terms of understanding the ones who I work with that are solely
in this fetish, overly sexualized space.
It's very much a shame based kind of practice in the same way
that someone who sees it as a relaxing and grounding and
normalized expression of their femininity.
(05:18):
It both came from a really shamed base space and a closeted
space, which I find that really very interesting in terms of
looking at the 2. Yeah.
Different ways of being for me. But yet it used to be like in
the 50s, sixties, I used to be very normal women.
They dress with girdles and shapewear and Garter bells.
(05:41):
That was the normal back then. And somehow that became, and
again, it was pushed on women because, oh, we have to all have
bullet bras and make sure our shape is exactly what everybody
wants it to be. So there was a lot of societal
pressure to dress in that way. And I don't agree with that
component. And as the casualization of how
(06:03):
women can show up in the world, in the workplace, at home for
their children, that became lessa thing that they had to do.
And then all of a sudden there was this shift of, oh, well,
that's what sexy women wear. They wear that style.
It became a tabooed, sexualized thing even in society.
So whether it was us or not, thecrossdresser or not wearing it,
(06:27):
it actually was pushed into it by manufacturers and fashion
designers and what have you. Of course, of course.
And just in terms of viewing this through the Isaac kink and
through the eyes of maybe some of the the pleasure of a cross
dressing individual who maybe doesn't see it as kink but is
(06:49):
trying to get more normalized. There is a there's this idea of
punishment for pleasure that is very much interwoven.
For example, the restrictive nature of a corset or a bra, the
heaviness of chunky earrings on the lobes or the heaviness of
(07:11):
breasts on your chest and the pain that comes from walking
heels all day. I'm not saying that by any means
that after a day at Keystone when you were taking off your
heels and you were feeling that pain, you are not feeling like,
oh, this feels so sexy, sexy andkinky and yes, yes please more.
(07:34):
It is, but there is something tobe said about getting that memo
of womanhood when it comes to the garments that we wear and
when it comes to the, you know, what should I say to my
hairdresser? Oh, after she cold shocked me to
lock in my vibrant red locks? I'm like hypothermic.
(07:57):
I'm like, pain is beauty as I'm like shivering in misery.
But yeah, there is a heightened kind of sexualization of
womanhood in those moments that could happen.
OK, so #3 ignoring women's voices while emulating them,
taking inspiration from women's appearances but not listening to
(08:18):
or engaging real women's perspectives, especially around
gender roles, body images, or feminism, can feel like an
appropriation without respect. Not good though.
Hemline with the. Hemline I and also the there's
another causal idea here of as men dressing as women, we can do
(08:43):
it and we can like have this heightened experience and go for
broke with how we look and what we're presenting and how
exaggerate or not exaggerate we want to be.
And then we go home, we take it all off, we return to our lives
and we had our fun, we had our experience, we had our feminine
joy. And then we go back to being a
man. And all that was done to what
(09:05):
you said without the idea. What was the last three words
you said in that statement? Especially around gender roles,
body image or feminism can feel like an appropriation without
respect. Right.
And I think those 3 words, the appropriation without respect is
critical because what is doing is that it is not allowing for a
(09:26):
shared lived experience. And we talked about this in many
ways about CIS females versus trans men or transgender gender
fluid people, where I was out raised female.
I was out raised and instructed and taught in the ways of how
women are, should be, how women should behave, how women should
(09:46):
protect themselves. All the things of what the
magazines bombarding you with, like how you should look, how
you should present, how you should act.
Nobody's telling men how to act other than especially in the
modern era, nobody's sitting there saying, oh, it might have
to be this. I kind of have it ingrained that
we need to be dominant. We need to be more aggressive,
we need to be posturing, We needto.
(10:07):
Men are the height of saying it's like there's all that there
and what we are not embodying, many of us, is what the female,
the sis female experience has been lived and what it means in
holding space for that. Right, holding space for that,
(10:27):
but realizing that your experience can be different,
right? It doesn't have to emanate.
It doesn't have to in order for you to live your best female
feminine life. It doesn't mean that you have to
feel you are unworthy or undeserving of your own
particular gender diverse femaleexperience just because you have
(10:49):
not locked the walk. I with this is females.
I think that there is a mutual respect that can and should
happen when you're trying to work alongside.
Yeah, there should. Yeah, it shouldn't be obtuse
about if you do the thing, you should have an appreciation for.
I don't know what it is like theappreciation for the historic
(11:11):
nature of the thing. I think that makes sense.
I don't even know if I'm understanding it.
Like I've never done anything without intentionality, right?
Like I've never gone to be like I'm wearing this thing is that
will give a shit what anybody says.
I mean, that might be my bolstering of my own
self-confidence to do the thing,but I've never walked into a
space. And this kind of goes back to a
(11:32):
lot of our partners who worry for us and have a feeling of
protecting us because they know what it's like to be a sis
female wearing something like that out in public and what
could happen. We don't have that sense.
But I've never actually walked into a place dressed a certain
way and not had my head on a swivel and not been like,
that'll be all right. Sure.
(11:53):
I feel that way sometimes because I am a male and yet I
also know what can happen. So there is that kind of
understanding of the historical feminine experience in certain
situations that we all should bevery aware of, without just
going in there and mocking the thing because we think that we
can get away with it differently.
Yeah, I'm not going to say too much about this one thought I
(12:16):
have, but I just want to say that I don't know.
I get rubbed the wrong way whenever I feel that people are
saying this. Overconfidence comes from the
fact that part of them is biologically male entering a
space with confidence because you are presenting as a female
and whether or not you pass completely or not, there's such
(12:38):
a vulnerability right now. And in general that your
existence is by nature one that wants to be destroyed by society
in the world. So I know I'm not in the body of
a trans woman going out, but I don't every time I hear that
there is this confidence becauseI haven't lived.
This is experience and I am confident going out.
(12:59):
I think it's very shared in the fact that you I've said this
before and the fact that like you're in this vulnerable space,
but even more so, even more so like sis, women know, bring a
girlfriend, run to their car, this and that.
But being a trans woman out in the world day night, every which
way. I mean, I don't know.
(13:20):
And again, I can't speak for theindividual because maybe the
individual does feel like I havethe confidence because I'm also
biologically male. Fine, but it just makes me feel.
I'll throw a caveat in there in that as a trans individual,
there's an inherent worry, an inherent of things that could
happen just by existing. Absolutely.
(13:43):
I will counter that by saying personally, I've spent years
getting over my fear just to go out into the world.
So there is this point of self-confidence that you have to
get to just even get outside your door and go out.
Public. So while I say yes, as a male, I
(14:03):
feel a sense of confidence that I can go places and defend
myself from bodily harm. I say that and then I say I also
have spent decades overcoming myfear of being a trans person,
taking up space, of course, public and a lot of
self-awareness. So bring into like, I wasn't
(14:24):
born female, so I've not been taught all those these things
that should keep you small, but then overcoming all the things
of protecting myself as a trans individual that I had to
overcome to get out into the world.
And so those two self-confidencework in tandem together to give
(14:45):
you a stronger sense of self outin the world.
And I do absolutely agree that people who are like very
tentative and people who are just going on into the world for
the first time, absolutely they're going to have this very
female centric fear, this very trans centric fear of just being
a person in the world is absolutely something that's
going to be paramount for many of us.
(15:06):
Of course. OK, so I have two more #4
centering male desire in female form.
Oh yeah, you know how much I love this autogenophilia focus,
Julie. Focus.
In fantasies or Sissy content, women are sometimes portrayed as
passive, hyper feminine objects meant to serve or attract A
(15:31):
dominant male gaze. This can reproduce objectifying
frameworks common in mainstream media.
Just flip through a cross dressing lens.
Right? I mean there's not.
It's said at all. It does, I mean.
And how many of us have met people who, when they dress, one
(15:55):
of the things they're looking for is to be looked at by the
male gaze in order to validate their female experience?
1000%. Yeah.
So if that's what you require for your experience and for your
existence as a feminine person in the world, yeah, never was
(16:16):
for me. I wasn't like, oh, I want that
guy to buy me a drink. But I've seen people both want
to get a drink paid for, want tobe cozied up by a male admirer,
even to go as far as sexual experience, because they need
that validation from a CIS male in order to really ingrain that
(16:38):
sense of feminine self. And so absolutely, there, that
runs. That's a whole other topic that
you get into a lot of that. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. And I think that there's a lot
of external validation, especially when you're starting
out on this cross dressing in the world kind of journey, when
(17:01):
you're whether it be from your significant other, whether it be
whatever it is being hit on by aguy for you.
If that's if you think about thestereotypical female experience
or what it, what is true for you, whether stereotypical or
not, you know, to be able to make a check on that bucket list
(17:26):
and say I was hit on a bar by a man.
For some people that may be likeI've made it or that's my
example of the girl card or the girl code or a plus plus.
And as much as myself or Savannah can say to all of you,
that does not validate your womanhood.
(17:47):
It all needs to come from yourself, this and that, those
milestones when you're hit on orwhen you're mammed the first
time or missed the first time, those are so validating and can
be so validating. I, I, I can't think of another
word in a way that myself as a professional can't really ever
(18:11):
know the feeling of when it comes to the genderqueer
experience. But I do know, through having a
level of empathy and compassion for my chosen family, that this
is a big deal. It is.
I remember the first time it wasa woman was not a man, but I
remember the first time a door was held open for me.
And it may have just been kindness and not like, oh, I'm
(18:34):
opening the door for a lady. It might not have been that, but
it did mean everything to me. Held the door open.
She was coming out, held the door for me, for me to go in.
And I just took it as a very kind thing to do for another
lady, right? You know, Right.
So yeah, I totally get there's many, many layers of external
(18:54):
validation at work. And the last one, the.
Last one. Yes, OK #5 over claiming what
it's like to be a woman. When some crossdressers claim
they know what it's like to be awoman based on their experience
dressing femininely, it can dismiss or minimize the live
(19:16):
realities, social, emotional, physical that women experience
daily. Now this is something that you
know is another topic within a topic within a topic.
It is also something that you and I when reading this list and
when before even this list came about and apologize for
(19:37):
hijacking your topic. By the way, you're probably like
crossing out your list. You're like, God damn it, this
bitch. But I'm sorry, we will make up
and I will apologize after. But basically this is something
we had mentioned before in this episode and that's not
(19:58):
dismissing the CIS example of what we have walked in, in terms
of our in terms of our historical perspective to get to
where we are today. I believe that there are two
different very different female experience, the trans female
(20:20):
experience or the genderqueer female experience.
And then the CIS female experience, and both are equally
heartbreaking, very much a movement and very much
important, the opportunity to link arms as a CIS woman, to be
able to link arms with a trans woman and say, hey, I see you.
(20:43):
And you see me in our own unique, different experiences
with our own women. Womanhood is a superpower.
Yeah, when it comes to a shared feminine form of expression.
Yeah, like I said, we had talkedabout it a little bit before of
walking a mile in a woman's heels, but only doing it on one
(21:05):
random Saturday night at a club does not a woman make or not a
woman make in terms of understanding everything that
woman has gone through. And again, every journey is
different for every human being on the planet, and every woman
has had a different cultural belief system, experiential
worldview, basically of everything they've done in their
(21:28):
life up to that point. Everything is shaped by
ourselves and by the world around us.
So for even us to talk about, oh, cross dressing person can
understand what a woman goes through, that's assuming that
every woman's experience is the same.
That's where we go right back to#1 which is like we're all
starting with this stereotypicalnotion of what it is like to be
(21:50):
a female. And that is generational.
That is the era of fashion. That is what's paramount in the
moment for feminism is so much to it.
And I think only thing we can know for sure is that while
every CIS female's perception offemininity is wholly their own,
I think the same rings true for every dual gender, gender
(22:12):
diverse person, that their perception of femininity is
wholly of their own. And it's just about being very
earnest and understanding all ofit, not just taking a caricature
or a slice of what you think is true.
Yes, maybe that's where your blueprint starts.
So that's not necessarily where you're going to end up.
As long as we go into it with our eyes open.
(22:34):
I think in terms of objectifyingwomen, I think we'll be softened
by the fact that we're not goingin there with our glitter on her
eyes or mascara on her lashes. It's like, I'm here, love me and
everybody's like, yo, you might want to turn that down a bit.
Now, you don't need to turn thatdown a bit if you know exactly
like why people may think and perceive you in different ways.
(22:58):
And some of that's going to be on you and some of that's going
to be on them. And as long as we can come to
the table and have conversation about trying to pay homage to
womanhood versus objectifying ormocking or fetishizing
womanhood, I think that's a great place to start.
Yeah, I just wrote instead of the word objectifying, it's in
respect or in deep admiration for.
(23:21):
Yeah, absolutely. Right.
And I think that makes it more of a in honor of experience, for
the love of experience, but alsoknowing that it is raw and real
and can be challenging when it comes to sharing space with a
partner that just suddenly wantsto become this woman.
(23:43):
And making this idea of their womanhood quote real for them
can be a weighted thing. A lot can come up.
Yeah, it could be challenging for.
Sure. Yeah, it can be challenging.
And so this episode definitely had a lot of different layers to
it. I know that you came to the
table with your own list, and I apologize for creating my own
(24:04):
list. Yeah, sometimes we have these
topics that come to us and it strikes a chord in the person,
right? In the person who decided to
come to the table with the topicor the person who is supposed to
be, you know, adding her, her two cents as it flows.
And then it becomes this whole holy other thing.
So I really appreciate everyone listening to this.
(24:27):
And please comment below. Reach out to us.
We want to know your thoughts and opinions and perspectives
when it comes to this unique journey we're on with this
podcast and this topic. So yeah, this was wonderful.
And please tune in every week for a new episode.
And please bridge back to other episodes because you may hear
(24:51):
something that you need to hear right when you need to hear it.
Yeah, we recommend you go back to episodes that you've heard
before because listening to themyears later with a fresh
perspective can change your lifeforever.
And that note. Bye for now.
Until next time. Sorry.
Hey, now that Julie's gone I cangive you my own list that I
(25:15):
wanted to do during the show butcouldn't because she did a lot
of research and I thought that was amazing so I didn't want to
stop on any of that. That being said, I want to share
my list and information about the perception from a CIS female
point of view as to why they maythink that their cross dressing
(25:35):
gender diverse partner may be objectifying femininity.
So number one that I have was perceived stereotyping of
femininity. Some women may feel that certain
forms of cross dressing emphasize or exaggerate hyper
feminized traits such as heavy makeup, high heels, provocative
clothing that align with stereotypical, even cartoonish
(25:59):
versions of womanhood. To them, it could feel like
femininity is being reduced to superficial traits, which may
feel like a caricature or a costume.
One example says it feels like you're playing dress up as a
woman based on what society saysis sexy or feminine, rather than
respecting the full lived reality of being a woman.
(26:19):
Second on the list, objectification through the lens
of the male gaze. Some cross dressing, especially
if it's sexualized, may be perceived as an enactment of
femininity meant to please or excite either the cross dress
for themselves or others. If it's heavily influenced by
pornified or fetishized images of women, a CIST woman might
(26:41):
feel like her gender is being eroticized rather than empathize
with. This example would say it feels
like you're wearing womanhood asa sexual fantasy, not as an
identity or lived experience #3 lack of shared lived experience.
Women often face discrimination,harassment, and systematic
inequality because of their gender.
(27:02):
When someone adopts the outward appearance of a woman for a
short time but doesn't live withthe long term consequences of
womanhood, like sexism, genderedviolence, or reproductive rights
issues, it might feel to some women like their experience is
being borrowed or imitated without real understanding.
This example includes. You can take off that dress and
(27:24):
walk back into male privilege, but I can't escape being treated
like less than because I'm a woman #4 on the list.
Cultural or generational beliefsSome discomfort might stem from
internalized cultural beliefs about gender roles, propriety,
or even binary notions of male slash female behavior.
For example, someone raised in amore conservative or traditional
(27:46):
environment might see cross dressing as inherently
transgressive or disrespectful. This example includes This just
feels wrong or inappropriate, like you're mocking us even if
you don't mean to #5 and one that we did not touch on much in
the podcast episode. Confusion with drag or media
tropes. Cross dressing is often
(28:07):
conflated with drag performance,which can be theatrical and
intentionally exaggerated. If a woman's only reference
point is drag Queens or comedic portrayals and media, she might
think all cross dressing is about performance or parody, not
self-expression or identity. This example is I've only seen
this done as a joke on TV, so how is this not making fun of
(28:29):
women? And number six, painful personal
experiences. Sometimes a discomfort might be
rooted in something personal. Bad experience with someone in
cross dressed, feelings of insecurity about body image or
even trauma. These reactions might not be
rational critiques, but they're still real and emotionally
valid. So with this, the example says
(28:50):
it makes me feel uncomfortable even if I can't explain why.
And it's also important to note as a caveat that all says women
feel this way and many are supportive, understanding or at
least curious about cross dressing as a self-expression.
The key to bridging this divide is often open, compassionate
dialogue where both sides are heard and respected.
(29:12):
So thanks for hearing my list and we will talk to you soon.
Until next time, you can find meon Facebook at Savannah Hawk or
at Living with Cross Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah
Hawk. Remember, that's HAUK.
And to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
(29:36):
and Facebook at Fox and Hanger or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhanger.com.
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
(29:56):
Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, Understanding
the feminine cross wrestling experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross wrestler,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker and author of the Living
with Cross Wrestling book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hey. Julie, hi, Savannah.
Just going to ask how you are today.
I am chomping at the bit to get back into this topic because
yeah, we had a lot going on and you know this were stolen.
(00:52):
Yeah, sorry. But it was all amazing and I
want to just keep going because I, I feel this is super
important to have for our amazing femme folks and their
sis partners. Oh, I like the way you said
that. Can you do that again?
(01:12):
Oh, that was very feminine. So let's get started.
All right, awesome. Here we go.
I pulled a Savannah and I actually came with some research
by came with, I mean, while you were talking and I typed it, I
typed it to Chat. GPTI said please come up with a
(01:33):
list of five ways crossdressers can objectify women.
And so it said, here's a list offive ways crossdressers can
unintentionally or intentionallyobjectify women.
OK, so the first one, reducing femininity to stereotypes, which
is something that we already covered at the top of the
(01:55):
episode. When femininity is expressed
solely through exaggerated tropes like only focusing on the
high heels, the makeup, the lingerie, or submission, it can
flatten womanhood into a costumeor performance rather than
acknowledge the diverse and complex realities of being a
woman #2 sexualizing women. In some cases, cross dressing is
(02:19):
rooted in erotic or fetish basedexperiences, which is valid as a
personal kink. But if that's the only extent in
which women quote, quote or woman quote, quote, excuse me,
is embraced or expressed, it canframe femininity solely as a
sexual object rather than a human identity.
(02:43):
I totally agree with that because as you're saying that
I'm thinking, one of the things to this day that I super, super,
super enjoy is my lingerie is myunderdressing, is my wanting.
Even if it's a body shaper from Shaper Mint.
There's something about the structural part, the things that
(03:03):
most people are not looking at, that is very appealing to me.
I love the building up of my outfit and it's all coming from
from the ground up. My my hose, my matching bra,
panty sets, the waist censure. All those things are things that
most women generally are not wearing on the daily.
(03:24):
But for me, yes, it is imperative for the shape of me,
but it's also something that revelant.
I love like the soft finish. I love the things that are
matching, the lace, the satin. Those appeal to me.
And you could call it fetishizing and sexualizing, and
maybe it is. I'm not saying it isn't.
But it does give me a little heightened sense of femininity
(03:47):
because that's like in my brain when I was looking at the Sears
catalog when I was seven years old.
And the whole first part is all about the women's fashion and
lingerie and how they wore karger.
The shapewear had garters on theends of it that was very much
like, Oh my God, that's very erotic and exotic.
And no, I'm not doing that. But there is a lot to be said
(04:08):
for that central component of the dress that is really just
for me. And then the line dress or the
blouse skirt combo go on over that.
And it really is wholly just forme as something that gives me
the feminine vibes in a lot of ways.
Yeah. And as someone who has a deep
respect and understanding and has worked with and honors the
(04:32):
kind of full spectrum of the feminine cross dressing
experience from those who view feminine dress as an overtly
sexual action and as a kink to those who seek it on a more
normalized, less heightened space.
I find this a really interestingthing to to just be with in
(04:55):
terms of understanding the ones who I work with that are solely
in this fetish, overly sexualized space.
It's very much a shame based kind of practice in the same way
that someone who sees it as a relaxing and grounding and
normalized expression of their femininity.
(05:18):
It both came from a really shamed base space and a closeted
space, which I find that really very interesting in terms of
looking at the 2. Yeah.
Different ways of being for me. But yet it used to be like in
the 50s, sixties, I used to be very normal women.
They dress with girdles and shapewear and Garter bells.
(05:41):
That was the normal back then. And somehow that became, and
again, it was pushed on women because, oh, we have to all have
bullet bras and make sure our shape is exactly what everybody
wants it to be. So there was a lot of societal
pressure to dress in that way. And I don't agree with that
component. And as the casualization of how
(06:03):
women can show up in the world, in the workplace, at home for
their children, that became lessa thing that they had to do.
And then all of a sudden there was this shift of, oh, well,
that's what sexy women wear. They wear that style.
It became a tabooed, sexualized thing even in society.
So whether it was us or not, thecrossdresser or not wearing it,
(06:27):
it actually was pushed into it by manufacturers and fashion
designers and what have you. Of course, of course.
And just in terms of viewing this through the Isaac kink and
through the eyes of maybe some of the the pleasure of a cross
dressing individual who maybe doesn't see it as kink but is
(06:49):
trying to get more normalized. There is a there's this idea of
punishment for pleasure that is very much interwoven.
For example, the restrictive nature of a corset or a bra, the
heaviness of chunky earrings on the lobes or the heaviness of
(07:11):
breasts on your chest and the pain that comes from walking
heels all day. I'm not saying that by any means
that after a day at Keystone when you were taking off your
heels and you were feeling that pain, you are not feeling like,
oh, this feels so sexy, sexy andkinky and yes, yes please more.
(07:34):
It is, but there is something tobe said about getting that memo
of womanhood when it comes to the garments that we wear and
when it comes to the, you know, what should I say to my
hairdresser? Oh, after she cold shocked me to
lock in my vibrant red locks? I'm like hypothermic.
(07:57):
I'm like, pain is beauty as I'm like shivering in misery.
But yeah, there is a heightened kind of sexualization of
womanhood in those moments that could happen.
OK, so #3 ignoring women's voices while emulating them,
taking inspiration from women's appearances but not listening to
(08:18):
or engaging real women's perspectives, especially around
gender roles, body images, or feminism, can feel like an
appropriation without respect. Not good though.
Hemline with the. Hemline I and also the there's
another causal idea here of as men dressing as women, we can do
(08:43):
it and we can like have this heightened experience and go for
broke with how we look and what we're presenting and how
exaggerate or not exaggerate we want to be.
And then we go home, we take it all off, we return to our lives
and we had our fun, we had our experience, we had our feminine
joy. And then we go back to being a
man. And all that was done to what
(09:05):
you said without the idea. What was the last three words
you said in that statement? Especially around gender roles,
body image or feminism can feel like an appropriation without
respect. Right.
And I think those 3 words, the appropriation without respect is
critical because what is doing is that it is not allowing for a
(09:26):
shared lived experience. And we talked about this in many
ways about CIS females versus trans men or transgender gender
fluid people, where I was out raised female.
I was out raised and instructed and taught in the ways of how
women are, should be, how women should behave, how women should
(09:46):
protect themselves. All the things of what the
magazines bombarding you with, like how you should look, how
you should present, how you should act.
Nobody's telling men how to act other than especially in the
modern era, nobody's sitting there saying, oh, it might have
to be this. I kind of have it ingrained that
we need to be dominant. We need to be more aggressive,
we need to be posturing, We needto.
(10:07):
Men are the height of saying it's like there's all that there
and what we are not embodying, many of us, is what the female,
the sis female experience has been lived and what it means in
holding space for that. Right, holding space for that,
(10:27):
but realizing that your experience can be different,
right? It doesn't have to emanate.
It doesn't have to in order for you to live your best female
feminine life. It doesn't mean that you have to
feel you are unworthy or undeserving of your own
particular gender diverse femaleexperience just because you have
(10:49):
not locked the walk. I with this is females.
I think that there is a mutual respect that can and should
happen when you're trying to work alongside.
Yeah, there should. Yeah, it shouldn't be obtuse
about if you do the thing, you should have an appreciation for.
I don't know what it is like theappreciation for the historic
(11:11):
nature of the thing. I think that makes sense.
I don't even know if I'm understanding it.
Like I've never done anything without intentionality, right?
Like I've never gone to be like I'm wearing this thing is that
will give a shit what anybody says.
I mean, that might be my bolstering of my own
self-confidence to do the thing,but I've never walked into a
space. And this kind of goes back to a
(11:32):
lot of our partners who worry for us and have a feeling of
protecting us because they know what it's like to be a sis
female wearing something like that out in public and what
could happen. We don't have that sense.
But I've never actually walked into a place dressed a certain
way and not had my head on a swivel and not been like,
that'll be all right. Sure.
(11:53):
I feel that way sometimes because I am a male and yet I
also know what can happen. So there is that kind of
understanding of the historical feminine experience in certain
situations that we all should bevery aware of, without just
going in there and mocking the thing because we think that we
can get away with it differently.
Yeah, I'm not going to say too much about this one thought I
(12:16):
have, but I just want to say that I don't know.
I get rubbed the wrong way whenever I feel that people are
saying this. Overconfidence comes from the
fact that part of them is biologically male entering a
space with confidence because you are presenting as a female
and whether or not you pass completely or not, there's such
(12:38):
a vulnerability right now. And in general that your
existence is by nature one that wants to be destroyed by society
in the world. So I know I'm not in the body of
a trans woman going out, but I don't every time I hear that
there is this confidence becauseI haven't lived.
This is experience and I am confident going out.
(12:59):
I think it's very shared in the fact that you I've said this
before and the fact that like you're in this vulnerable space,
but even more so, even more so like sis, women know, bring a
girlfriend, run to their car, this and that.
But being a trans woman out in the world day night, every which
way. I mean, I don't know.
(13:20):
And again, I can't speak for theindividual because maybe the
individual does feel like I havethe confidence because I'm also
biologically male. Fine, but it just makes me feel.
I'll throw a caveat in there in that as a trans individual,
there's an inherent worry, an inherent of things that could
happen just by existing. Absolutely.
(13:43):
I will counter that by saying personally, I've spent years
getting over my fear just to go out into the world.
So there is this point of self-confidence that you have to
get to just even get outside your door and go out.
Public. So while I say yes, as a male, I
(14:03):
feel a sense of confidence that I can go places and defend
myself from bodily harm. I say that and then I say I also
have spent decades overcoming myfear of being a trans person,
taking up space, of course, public and a lot of
self-awareness. So bring into like, I wasn't
(14:24):
born female, so I've not been taught all those these things
that should keep you small, but then overcoming all the things
of protecting myself as a trans individual that I had to
overcome to get out into the world.
And so those two self-confidencework in tandem together to give
(14:45):
you a stronger sense of self outin the world.
And I do absolutely agree that people who are like very
tentative and people who are just going on into the world for
the first time, absolutely they're going to have this very
female centric fear, this very trans centric fear of just being
a person in the world is absolutely something that's
going to be paramount for many of us.
(15:06):
Of course. OK, so I have two more #4
centering male desire in female form.
Oh yeah, you know how much I love this autogenophilia focus,
Julie. Focus.
In fantasies or Sissy content, women are sometimes portrayed as
passive, hyper feminine objects meant to serve or attract A
(15:31):
dominant male gaze. This can reproduce objectifying
frameworks common in mainstream media.
Just flip through a cross dressing lens.
Right? I mean there's not.
It's said at all. It does, I mean.
And how many of us have met people who, when they dress, one
(15:55):
of the things they're looking for is to be looked at by the
male gaze in order to validate their female experience?
1000%. Yeah.
So if that's what you require for your experience and for your
existence as a feminine person in the world, yeah, never was
(16:16):
for me. I wasn't like, oh, I want that
guy to buy me a drink. But I've seen people both want
to get a drink paid for, want tobe cozied up by a male admirer,
even to go as far as sexual experience, because they need
that validation from a CIS male in order to really ingrain that
(16:38):
sense of feminine self. And so absolutely, there, that
runs. That's a whole other topic that
you get into a lot of that. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. And I think that there's a lot
of external validation, especially when you're starting
out on this cross dressing in the world kind of journey, when
(17:01):
you're whether it be from your significant other, whether it be
whatever it is being hit on by aguy for you.
If that's if you think about thestereotypical female experience
or what it, what is true for you, whether stereotypical or
not, you know, to be able to make a check on that bucket list
(17:26):
and say I was hit on a bar by a man.
For some people that may be likeI've made it or that's my
example of the girl card or the girl code or a plus plus.
And as much as myself or Savannah can say to all of you,
that does not validate your womanhood.
(17:47):
It all needs to come from yourself, this and that, those
milestones when you're hit on orwhen you're mammed the first
time or missed the first time, those are so validating and can
be so validating. I, I, I can't think of another
word in a way that myself as a professional can't really ever
(18:11):
know the feeling of when it comes to the genderqueer
experience. But I do know, through having a
level of empathy and compassion for my chosen family, that this
is a big deal. It is.
I remember the first time it wasa woman was not a man, but I
remember the first time a door was held open for me.
And it may have just been kindness and not like, oh, I'm
(18:34):
opening the door for a lady. It might not have been that, but
it did mean everything to me. Held the door open.
She was coming out, held the door for me, for me to go in.
And I just took it as a very kind thing to do for another
lady, right? You know, Right.
So yeah, I totally get there's many, many layers of external
(18:54):
validation at work. And the last one, the.
Last one. Yes, OK #5 over claiming what
it's like to be a woman. When some crossdressers claim
they know what it's like to be awoman based on their experience
dressing femininely, it can dismiss or minimize the live
(19:16):
realities, social, emotional, physical that women experience
daily. Now this is something that you
know is another topic within a topic within a topic.
It is also something that you and I when reading this list and
when before even this list came about and apologize for
(19:37):
hijacking your topic. By the way, you're probably like
crossing out your list. You're like, God damn it, this
bitch. But I'm sorry, we will make up
and I will apologize after. But basically this is something
we had mentioned before in this episode and that's not
(19:58):
dismissing the CIS example of what we have walked in, in terms
of our in terms of our historical perspective to get to
where we are today. I believe that there are two
different very different female experience, the trans female
(20:20):
experience or the genderqueer female experience.
And then the CIS female experience, and both are equally
heartbreaking, very much a movement and very much
important, the opportunity to link arms as a CIS woman, to be
able to link arms with a trans woman and say, hey, I see you.
(20:43):
And you see me in our own unique, different experiences
with our own women. Womanhood is a superpower.
Yeah, when it comes to a shared feminine form of expression.
Yeah, like I said, we had talkedabout it a little bit before of
walking a mile in a woman's heels, but only doing it on one
(21:05):
random Saturday night at a club does not a woman make or not a
woman make in terms of understanding everything that
woman has gone through. And again, every journey is
different for every human being on the planet, and every woman
has had a different cultural belief system, experiential
worldview, basically of everything they've done in their
(21:28):
life up to that point. Everything is shaped by
ourselves and by the world around us.
So for even us to talk about, oh, cross dressing person can
understand what a woman goes through, that's assuming that
every woman's experience is the same.
That's where we go right back to#1 which is like we're all
starting with this stereotypicalnotion of what it is like to be
(21:50):
a female. And that is generational.
That is the era of fashion. That is what's paramount in the
moment for feminism is so much to it.
And I think only thing we can know for sure is that while
every CIS female's perception offemininity is wholly their own,
I think the same rings true for every dual gender, gender
(22:12):
diverse person, that their perception of femininity is
wholly of their own. And it's just about being very
earnest and understanding all ofit, not just taking a caricature
or a slice of what you think is true.
Yes, maybe that's where your blueprint starts.
So that's not necessarily where you're going to end up.
As long as we go into it with our eyes open.
(22:34):
I think in terms of objectifyingwomen, I think we'll be softened
by the fact that we're not goingin there with our glitter on her
eyes or mascara on her lashes. It's like, I'm here, love me and
everybody's like, yo, you might want to turn that down a bit.
Now, you don't need to turn thatdown a bit if you know exactly
like why people may think and perceive you in different ways.
(22:58):
And some of that's going to be on you and some of that's going
to be on them. And as long as we can come to
the table and have conversation about trying to pay homage to
womanhood versus objectifying ormocking or fetishizing
womanhood, I think that's a great place to start.
Yeah, I just wrote instead of the word objectifying, it's in
respect or in deep admiration for.
(23:21):
Yeah, absolutely. Right.
And I think that makes it more of a in honor of experience, for
the love of experience, but alsoknowing that it is raw and real
and can be challenging when it comes to sharing space with a
partner that just suddenly wantsto become this woman.
(23:43):
And making this idea of their womanhood quote real for them
can be a weighted thing. A lot can come up.
Yeah, it could be challenging for.
Sure. Yeah, it can be challenging.
And so this episode definitely had a lot of different layers to
it. I know that you came to the
table with your own list, and I apologize for creating my own
(24:04):
list. Yeah, sometimes we have these
topics that come to us and it strikes a chord in the person,
right? In the person who decided to
come to the table with the topicor the person who is supposed to
be, you know, adding her, her two cents as it flows.
And then it becomes this whole holy other thing.
So I really appreciate everyone listening to this.
(24:27):
And please comment below. Reach out to us.
We want to know your thoughts and opinions and perspectives
when it comes to this unique journey we're on with this
podcast and this topic. So yeah, this was wonderful.
And please tune in every week for a new episode.
And please bridge back to other episodes because you may hear
(24:51):
something that you need to hear right when you need to hear it.
Yeah, we recommend you go back to episodes that you've heard
before because listening to themyears later with a fresh
perspective can change your lifeforever.
And that note. Bye for now.
Until next time. Sorry.
Hey, now that Julie's gone I cangive you my own list that I
(25:15):
wanted to do during the show butcouldn't because she did a lot
of research and I thought that was amazing so I didn't want to
stop on any of that. That being said, I want to share
my list and information about the perception from a CIS female
point of view as to why they maythink that their cross dressing
(25:35):
gender diverse partner may be objectifying femininity.
So number one that I have was perceived stereotyping of
femininity. Some women may feel that certain
forms of cross dressing emphasize or exaggerate hyper
feminized traits such as heavy makeup, high heels, provocative
clothing that align with stereotypical, even cartoonish
(25:59):
versions of womanhood. To them, it could feel like
femininity is being reduced to superficial traits, which may
feel like a caricature or a costume.
One example says it feels like you're playing dress up as a
woman based on what society saysis sexy or feminine, rather than
respecting the full lived reality of being a woman.
(26:19):
Second on the list, objectification through the lens
of the male gaze. Some cross dressing, especially
if it's sexualized, may be perceived as an enactment of
femininity meant to please or excite either the cross dress
for themselves or others. If it's heavily influenced by
pornified or fetishized images of women, a CIST woman might
(26:41):
feel like her gender is being eroticized rather than empathize
with. This example would say it feels
like you're wearing womanhood asa sexual fantasy, not as an
identity or lived experience #3 lack of shared lived experience.
Women often face discrimination,harassment, and systematic
inequality because of their gender.
(27:02):
When someone adopts the outward appearance of a woman for a
short time but doesn't live withthe long term consequences of
womanhood, like sexism, genderedviolence, or reproductive rights
issues, it might feel to some women like their experience is
being borrowed or imitated without real understanding.
This example includes. You can take off that dress and
(27:24):
walk back into male privilege, but I can't escape being treated
like less than because I'm a woman #4 on the list.
Cultural or generational beliefsSome discomfort might stem from
internalized cultural beliefs about gender roles, propriety,
or even binary notions of male slash female behavior.
For example, someone raised in amore conservative or traditional
(27:46):
environment might see cross dressing as inherently
transgressive or disrespectful. This example includes This just
feels wrong or inappropriate, like you're mocking us even if
you don't mean to #5 and one that we did not touch on much in
the podcast episode. Confusion with drag or media
tropes. Cross dressing is often
(28:07):
conflated with drag performance,which can be theatrical and
intentionally exaggerated. If a woman's only reference
point is drag Queens or comedic portrayals and media, she might
think all cross dressing is about performance or parody, not
self-expression or identity. This example is I've only seen
this done as a joke on TV, so how is this not making fun of
(28:29):
women? And number six, painful personal
experiences. Sometimes a discomfort might be
rooted in something personal. Bad experience with someone in
cross dressed, feelings of insecurity about body image or
even trauma. These reactions might not be
rational critiques, but they're still real and emotionally
valid. So with this, the example says
(28:50):
it makes me feel uncomfortable even if I can't explain why.
And it's also important to note as a caveat that all says women
feel this way and many are supportive, understanding or at
least curious about cross dressing as a self-expression.
The key to bridging this divide is often open, compassionate
dialogue where both sides are heard and respected.
(29:12):
So thanks for hearing my list and we will talk to you soon.
Until next time, you can find meon Facebook at Savannah Hawk or
at Living with Cross Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah
Hawk. Remember, that's HAUK.
And to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
(29:36):
and Facebook at Fox and Hanger or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhanger.com.
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
(29:56):
Yes, nailed it.
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