May 21, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode, Savannah and Julie pull a meme from the interwebs that asks the question of whether crossing is a choice while being transgender is not a choice. Our hosts weigh in about the hardships both categories of folx endure and the efforts it takes to embody one's truest self beyond societal norms. At the end of the day, in both cases, while the pursuing one's authenticity may be a choice the reasons for their gender expansiveness is a necessity.
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and cofounder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Hi, Julie, How are you today?
You're looking very radiant and amazing today.
Thank you, I just rubbed some beef tallow all over my face.
(00:49):
But don't worry it's grass fed and it has manuka honey, some
oils. It's the latest rage on TikTok.
Don't worry about him. I will not worry about it
because those two words togetherto me does not represent
something I want to put on my face unless it's connected to AT
Bone Steak where that beef tallow just ends up just
(01:11):
dripping off my chin. Look, it's all about the beef
tallow peoples, and this has probably been started by farmers
since the start of time, OK? It's like these influencers
come, they think they create something new, but really it's
like a secret that's been pushedthrough the ages and suddenly it
enters the metaverse and everyone's talking about it.
(01:31):
And so it's like, whatever, I'm actually going to finish the
jar. That's my goal.
I got my pimple patches on the deck because, you know, you
think if you rub a beef all overyour face.
I mean, they say it doesn't the pores, but you know, I'm
expecting some clogged pores. I'll tell you this, when I was,
oh, I don't know, 15 1/2 to 17 years old, I worked at Wendy's
(01:53):
and I worked on the grill and wehad a lot of beef and a lot of
flipping burgers and then pressing them down.
And I I have a feeling that a lot of beef tallow.
Yes. Emanated from the grill into my
pores and then I went home and had plenty of pimple as a result
because my face was all greasy and gross.
So I don't know if the same thing or not, but I definitely
(02:14):
remember the byproducts of beef getting on my face.
Now I need to actually this one but I believe the beef tallow is
of a certain location on the cowthat has healing properties.
I'm not trying to cheapen and yucky Yum for your Wendy's
experience but just know that I will finish this whole jar and
(02:37):
if cystic acne enters the thing I will be an influencer who will
suddenly go on and say look all those tallow bitches with that
Titan ton skin. It's a lie because I got cystic
acne and all I had to do was finish the jar.
OK, I'm just saying if it does. If it does, If it does, you'll
tell it straight. That is so punny.
(02:58):
I just love it. I've known you as long as I
have. I got that.
That was a pun one before. I'd be like, wait, what?
If a pun doesn't utter itself from my mouth, I wouldn't know
to do it myself. I.
Bet like utter, like the cows utter.
That's it, but move on. All right, that is too much.
I used to not be able to get that humor.
It's like if you're feeding me fresh green grass and it's yeah,
(03:21):
I'm not going to do that. Dry humor is where I'm at.
But I get where you're at. So let's move on down down the
road as in The Wiz, the musical starring Diana Ross, OK?
And Michael Jackson, Yes, as theScarecrow.
As you know, how are you? Beat you at least my birthday
coming up soon and yeah. Yep, Yep, Yep.
(03:41):
And by soon it's probably over our past.
As of this recording, we had a backyard Bush situation.
There was a bunch of little brown dots and all the leaves,
little grassy bushes. And so Judy did some research
and find out that, yeah, you gotta do, you gotta cut all that
back. The problem is you can't cut all
that back because all the new growth is all interspersed.
(04:02):
So her and I were sitting on ourbump kisses in a backyard next
to the fence, trying so desperately to take out all the
old growth among all the new growth on these 12 bushes we
have. And I suffered after it because
I have a bad lower back. My muscles are sore, my lower
back is tight. It's spasming.
(04:24):
I'm just like, Oh my God, I hatebeing this old.
I'm sorry. It's OK.
Truth be told, when you said I have a birthday coming up which
will probably be passed as of this episode, I was in the party
mindset. OK, so when you said I have a
backyard Bush, I don't know if you said situation, but I heard
in my mind a celebration. I don't know what I was
(04:46):
thinking, but suddenly you got into the the brown and the
sitting on your tocuses and and all that.
So you fooled me once. Shame on you.
You fooled me twice. Let's have a real party.
OK, so any we're going on a journey, the Fox and the Phoenix
podcast is it's a journey. OK, where are we on this journey
today? Where are we?
(05:07):
Where are we a topic? We are at the point of our
episode where I'm going to tell you the topic because it is my
week to come up with the topic and my topic was pulled from the
metaverse, if you will, as many of our topics are where I came
across a meme. Let me just bring it up.
(05:28):
A meme that was in maroon and you know, I love me a deep
Crimson. OK, the maroon and in white
letters it said cross dressing achoice, being transgender, not a
choice. Now, just from knowing you, I
already know right there with the title that you have
something to say about it. So I'd love she could just say
(05:50):
what you're going to say and then I'm going to say what I'm
going to say and then we're going to talk and then you all
are going to listen. It'll be a great episode, this
topic. When I presented to you, my
sweet Savannah, you and I both agreed that this was something
that is always relevant. That is always something that we
can circulate on every every couple of years and it will
(06:10):
still be as fresh and as new andas timely as ever.
Hopefully that will be the case forever, but that is how it is
today as it stands. And yeah, I'd love to hear
you're opening as it relates to this topic.
Oh, thank you, Madam Debate Chair, I'd like to say, am I
opening Ramall? No, You sent me this meme from
some time ago and said, hey, butthis topic and my first answer
(06:34):
to you was, oh, that's a topic that's still divisive.
Yeah. And we are going off under
little journeys and come back around and then you resurface
this. Now I took a closer look at it,
the name itself, and the first thing I thought was, well, then
language is wrong. You're right.
Meaning that it says cross dressing a choice, being
(06:55):
transgender, not a choice. And I'm like, well, one's a verb
and one's a noun. So in and of itself, I had
issues with it in my grammaticalbody because as we've talked
about before and I've mentioned before, cross dressing is an
action, is an art form, is a thing you do.
So yes, in the very general generic sense, yes, cross
(07:18):
dressing is a choice. Could you choose to make that
decision to take your biologically male body and adorn
it with feminine clothing or padding, makeup, wigs, etcetera,
to get to the result that being transgender not a choice?
I completely agree. Being transgender is not a
choice. It is something you are.
(07:38):
It's inherent within yourself. So my first thing is I have lots
of problems with the meme as a hey let's discuss kind of thing
and then see what the comments bring back.
I would say the idea of being a cross dresser a choice, being
transgender not a choice. I still feel that both are not a
choice yet if it's about their intersectionality between each
(08:05):
other. There's a huge spectrum and
divide of what those things mean.
So the way I look at it, yes cross dressing is a choice to
do. But I've spoken about it many
times. The reason why we are cross
dressing or choose to cross dress has an underlying element
to it that puts us in the trans spectrum, under the trans
(08:28):
umbrella in some way. Either non binary genderqueer
and you're fluid. And again, then the other part
is, well, are we saying transgender from the umbrella
perspective or transgender from AI?
Don't feel right in my biological body perspective that
absolutely. Those two things are very much
their own thing and you really can't compare them.
(08:51):
So there's a lot of problems with the question being asked
the way it was asked as if you're either this or you're
that. And if you're 1 means one thing,
and if your other means something completely different,
and there's such overlap that I think it's great to have the
conversation about. Yeah.
And I appreciate you saying all that because when I first looked
at this, I definitely had my ownkind of feelings and
(09:14):
perspectives that I will come tothe table with in a couple of
seconds. But at second glance, I was able
to see it from your perspective,just from knowing you as a dual
gender transgender identified human being.
So I'm going to go back to my take and my perspective because
that's what makes our collaboration and our
(09:35):
relationship so dynamic is oftenwhen we come completely
different perspectives and then we meet in the middle.
So for me, when I looked at thisit, it brought up a lot in terms
of my belief systems and my truths as to how I was raised in
terms of what cross dressing means for me and the community
(09:57):
I've worked with. For me, the word cross dressing,
it's an action, absolutely, but it's also an identity.
And this is something that I have learned just from different
cross dressers that I worked with.
That said, you know, I identify as a cross dresser and that is a
label and a term that that has a.
(10:20):
Significance. Yes, thank you.
A significance, a pride to it. There's ownership for it.
It's something that when they dosay it to me, it's something
that they've owned versus something that they've hidden
the closet of shame. So it's something that they feel
very, very proud about. In the beginning, when we
started this podcast, I had a certain idea and belief system
(10:43):
about the clear differences between a crossdresser and a
transgender individual. And you and I had an episode in
the very beginning. And please, I urge all of you to
go back to those early episodes because it's one of those
episodes that showcases my growth and also showcases an
episode that was really kind of hard.
(11:03):
I don't know if it was hard to hear as a listener, but it was
hard for me. I had my hand over my face and
it was very, very difficult. It was more difficult for me to
produce the words and handle thedebate of it all or my now I
understand it lack of knowledge at the time compared to what I
know now to be true. But it was compelling
nonetheless. So nowadays I understand more
(11:27):
about the transgender umbrella. I understand more about the
genderqueer spectrum. I'm very comfortable
understanding the individuals I work with, whether they identify
as trans or cross dressing or kink or whatever it is.
I've really landed like you've really landed on the tool do
gender. I really landed on the term
(11:49):
genderqueer, this feminine genderqueer space that I have
been able to work through and develop an understanding for
through all these many hundreds and hundreds of different
genderqueer stories through the feminine lens.
So when I look at this about cross dressing, a choice, being
transgender, not a choice, I also am able to view the two as
(12:11):
very, very separate. Separate but equal.
OK, so when I think about the amount of processors that I've
known since starting Fox and Hanger to now.
And I think about the number of individuals that have gotten a
look book or who I have known who have completed the process
and then reach back out to me, whether we sent out a mailing
(12:32):
letter or whatever it is or they've gotten in contact with
me or I've got in contact with them.
And they said to me, please, I'mno longer a cross stretcher.
I don't want to be identified with any of that.
And please, please let go of my e-mail just to have them contact
me three to six months later andsay, hey, remember when I told
(12:54):
you I don't identify as a crossdresser anymore?
Well, that's not true. I've cross dressed again, or I
fully identify as a transgender female or, you know, fill in all
the blanks. I can't tell you how many
clients that I've known and beena part of their journey.
Where the binging and the purging.
Remember we talked about all those episodes ago where purging
(13:18):
is definitely the, it's an action, but it's also very much
a metaphor for wanting to get rid of the physical parts of
themselves. That makes this true for them.
You know, with the bigger idea being they're trying to get rid
of themselves. They're trying to get rid of any
evidence that is themselves. They're trying to get rid of
nails or getting rid of the wigs.
(13:39):
So they're getting rid of the dresses, the skirts.
You and your relationship with your feminine self is true and
it's real. And unfortunately, it goes far
beyond physical clothing that make you become this person.
It's deep and for many starts inchildhood where it starts in
adolescence. And it's not something I believe
(14:00):
that you can change. It's not something I believe is
a choice. So that's where I'm coming to
this discussion with and I wouldlove to get your feedback on
what I said and then just process all of this because it
really is something that I thinkwill involve a lot of stopping
and a lot of starting of this episode.
(14:20):
If you're listening with your significant other, I think it's
an episode worthy of bringing toyour therapist.
I think it has a lot of healing properties just in the
discussion points that we've made thus far and the discussion
points that we're going to make before finishing this episode.
Well, yes, I agree with you and yes, I do see your growth all
the time and you've done the same for me and expanding my
(14:43):
repertoire of knowledge or understanding or just empathy
for others whose stories I haven't heard yet.
But again, in my existence is all based on hearing stories
from others and finding those things that resonate for me.
So we're talking about cross dressing a choice.
I totally agree. There are equal but mutually
exclusive in a lot of ways. We know that some people if you
(15:06):
look at that the overlapping circles so like cross dressing
and transgender in somewhere in the overlap is those people who
have moved towards or moved awayfrom cross dressing as a cell
label and said I now identify astransgender or I feel you know,
that is cross trust. It was the gateway drug to get
(15:27):
them to do that self reflection,get them to really dig deep like
the clothing, the makeup, the curves.
Let them embody themselves in a more truthful way that allow
them to open up their own mind to the possibilities for what
their journey is heading toward,whether that be transitioning,
whether it to be maybe living non transitioning, but as a
(15:49):
different gender or as and then Mal gone along the way in their
body and in their life. Whereas you have somebody like
me, It's right there in my book,the living with cross dressing
for the non transitioning crossdresser.
That doesn't mean I don't feel Iam trans because I do.
I have come to my own understanding that the reason
why I cross dress is because I am dual gender.
(16:13):
So for me, I believe 1 like you said, it's not a choice to cross
dress. It is something we do because we
are trying to develop or envelope or find a part of
ourselves that can't be accessedotherwise.
So clothing and the curves and the makeup allow us to to
pinpoint that within ourselves and harness it.
(16:35):
I feel that that's where my soul's at.
That being said, I do want to also say that there are plenty
of people who cross dress that are not looking to do it for any
other reason then it makes them feel good.
They like to do it as bedroom plan, come home after a long day
and they find that it makes themmore relaxed or escapism.
(16:58):
But they don't do it for any other reason than this tactile,
comforting, confining, erotic way of being.
But they don't have necessary a name to it.
Like for me, I think one of the big changes or the big
departures from quote UN quote, just being a crosshouser for a
specific emotional benefit is that I came up with a name.
(17:21):
There was a necessity for me to come up with an identity, a
persona that I could embody as that person.
It wasn't like Chuck in a dress.It is Savannah.
Savannah became my feminine outlet, became something that I
was able to present to the world.
And I think that's another key component.
If I'm just doing it because I come home and I like to be in a
satin robe and will thigh high stockings, or I just love to do
(17:46):
it because it makes me feel sexyand erotic, those are things
that you don't need to necessarily name, like come up
with a Stoner for yourself. And also that's only for at
home. That's only the bedroom.
That's only for personal use forme.
We've had this conversation where Judy is like, why can't
you just dress up at home? And I'm like, because that
doesn't feel right to me. I feel like I need to be part of
(18:08):
the world in this form. And I think that's another part
where one, it wasn't a choice, it was a knee.
I could dress up every night when I got home and she'd be
happy though, say if it's comfortable at home.
But for me, that just didn't feel right.
It felt ick. I felt like, well, I'm just
doing it. It's just in a bigger prison.
Like I always say, a bigger the house is now the closet versus a
(18:29):
closet being a closet, right? In a literal sense.
And I'm like, no, I need to be out in the world.
I need to be, We have this very accepted, but I need to be out
there, right And as this person.Yeah, and that's wholly
different, doing things just foryourself.
I have this client I'm thinking of in my head.
Let me just say who approaches their cross dressing like one
(18:49):
would approach at the end of theday, having a whiskey on the
rocks, you know where they just like to do it.
And they are interested in corsetry, they're interested in
wigs, but not so much for shape shifting their identity to the
most feminine place. They know what girt lengths they
like. They have a very specific
(19:10):
aesthetic and that is just for themselves because they feel
good and they feel pretty in it and it relaxes them and they
feel good in it. Now it's.
Not for public consumption. Right, And we had, through our
work together, we had come up with a feminine name and the two
of us came up with that femininename.
(19:30):
It's just something to play around with.
But again, that's what it felt like.
It didn't feel like something that was wholly there's that
this is the name and this is howidentified.
Thank you so much for giving me that compass to this feminine
name that means something so much.
It was exactly just to play around with.
And I'm not even talking about kinky play.
(19:50):
I'm talking about just, OK, let's if they had to have a
feminine name, what would it be like?
You know, kind of like when you're in 4th grade playing the
game Mash and you're like Mansion House Shack that I'd
want to marry David Fishman and I want to live in a shack in
Hawaii. It was just kind of like a
whimsical conversation. Give me just a little more
attention and filling out some of the pieces.
(20:13):
But for others the name is. Everything, it's their namesake,
it's their feminine lace in the world, whether it be part time,
full time, it's very meaningful.So what makes the Fox in the
Phoenix podcast so dynamic and ever flowing with topics is the
idea that like a box, we are brilliant at shape shifting.
(20:38):
When we would like to present indifferent ways, we are careful
and we are cutting and we make sure that we leave no rock
unturned in terms of being slickand sly.
And like a phoenix were able to rise.
Rise from the oppression, rise from the ashes and rise with our
own unique story of this. And it's an ever flowing cycle.
(21:01):
You may rise once and be your fullest expression of feminine
in your fullest relationship with this part of yourself.
And then you may crumble throughshame or therapy or rebirth or
illness or divorce or age, and then rise again like a phoenix
and rebirth this other version of yourself.
What was true for me in terms ofhow I viewed crossdressing and
(21:24):
how I be transgender? Well, I don't know if I got to
mention this in the last part ofwhen I said this today, but I
used to think that crossdressers, they had a
certain kink to their dressing. It was people who had a kink or
had some sort of something that happened when they put on female
clothes and they had some sort of charge to dressing this way.
(21:47):
And being transgender means you've never lived a sis day in
your life. That sentence came to me.
My therapist denies it, but it came to me from someone whose
name May Rhymes Mallory. And I just locked in in terms of
their belief. And it made a home and it made
sense to me, right? And so that's what I came to the
table with as Julie, this professional and this expert in
(22:09):
my field. And when I was able to read your
book before even laid out episode one for the peoples, I
just remember, I remember exactly where I was and I just
remember just shouting, thank you, thank you.
Like this is what you know, hundreds upon hundreds and
hundreds of people must experience right now in terms of
(22:29):
having a place, having somethingtangible.
I mean, yes, there's online reading, fine, but something
tangible that they can touch andunderline and feel validated in
such a way that says, hey, you can still identify.
And I say this very rebelliouslybefore you as I understand how
you use and understand the term cross dressing as a an action
(22:51):
for me. I was able to say, Oh my
goodness, thank you so much for giving me this information.
Thank you so much for now my ability to use what I understand
here and to help those cross dressing individuals that say
this is my identity. And Oh my goodness, I realized
from Savannah's book, it's not akink, it's not sick.
It's not something that is to live in the closet and be
(23:14):
shamed. It is something that can be
normalized. It is something that is not just
one thing. Well, hey, it's 20 different
things. It's 20 different things.
And what I've learned over the years since cracking open that
book and having this revelation is that it can also be kind of
transgender. It can also have some
similarities, overlaps, and partnership with a transgender
(23:38):
experience, if you choose to call it that.
If that is something that was inyour unique genderqueer journey,
you decide this fits me. Like you said, being in your
house and not leaving, it didn'tfit you, didn't fit you well.
I challenge everyone, all of ourlisteners and all of those
listeners that have cracked openSavannah's first book or second
(24:02):
book or now the third book, to revisit that first book and see
how do you feel about this topicor has it changed?
How have you evolved from the person you were?
Because I feel like when you sayto me, Savannah, you say, I
still check in with myself everynow and then and question
things. How do I feel about my
(24:23):
sexuality? Well, I know that I am attracted
to the feminine, the feminine aesthetic.
And how do I feel about my transness?
Well, it's my transness. I identify as a transgender
woman as it pertains under the trans umbrella.
So it is really important that we constantly, constantly are
checking in with ourselves and see what is still true, what
(24:46):
still exists and what could be redefined if you will.
Oh, absolutely. But it's funny, you've mentioned
that phrase before. I've ever lived as this day of
my life and I've never thought that about myself.
But looking back on my pre adolescence, not knowing any
better, first of all, and you'rea child of 6789.
You're not thinking about your again cisgender.
(25:08):
That term didn't even exist tilllike yesterday.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like cisgender was only a
reaction to somebody being called transgender.
It's like homosexual. Nobody was, you know, yeah, they
were straight, but nobody was like, I'm a straight white man.
But as always, like look at those homosexuals over there was
like we never had to label our normalness, quote UN quote, and
we only the otherness. So as a child who's sitting
(25:30):
there going, I feel different. I'd like these things.
I don't see other little boys doing those things, but I do it
for myself. That was not a choice.
It was a choice to pursue it, but it wasn't a choice in my
body and mind to say Nah, I'm not doing that.
That's not what little boys do. I'm going to just maintain my
normal lifestyle. I don't know if I've ever
(25:53):
experienced a CIS day in my lifebecause I don't know if I would
even know what that would look like.
I wouldn't have this struggles I've had, and you mentioned
those things where I'm fighting to be reborn, to evolve, to
constantly check in with myself.Yeah, all humans should do that.
But I don't know if every heteronormative heterosexual
(26:15):
human being sitting there going.I feel about myself today.
A lot of people are making thosechoices of looking inward.
They're living life as they always do without questioning.
And I'm always questioning. I'm always looking.
I'm always saying, like you said, OK, well, I like the
feminine, but does that include trans females who look feminine?
(26:37):
Does it include this? Does it include that was like
the more I learn about what is true out in the world, the more
you have to think about it. It just kind of like put your
fingers on the pulse of it for aminute and see how you feel
about it going back. Yes, there are many quote UN
quote cross dressers, just crossdressers who make a choice to do
(27:00):
cross dressing cross play, whatever you want to call it
just for fun or self-expression or for art performative, maybe
non dry clean performative. They just do it to do it and
maybe it doesn't mean much to them.
Maybe they do not question theirgender normative nature.
But yet I feel that because as we all know, it's not a
(27:23):
spectrum. It's a Galaxy of choice.
Self labeling. What is true for me is not true
for somebody else. Some are based on trauma, some
are based on environment, some are based on this internal need.
I don't think in any of the cases that we're talking about
today, there is a choice. I think that everything is a
reaction to something and I'd bequestioning this.
(27:43):
Like you said, my journey between book 1 and the second
living with crossroads and then general one O 1 is all of those
are just reactions to my groat of reassessing where I am in
life for myself. So anytime I write, writing is
my journaling, writing is my finding out more about my nature
and it fortunately is it actually is cognitive and
(28:05):
accessible enough for other people to read it, which I'm
delighted that people have read it and have found some resonance
in it. All that rambling to say, as a
cross dressing person, I identify as dual gender, or you
could call it bi gender or gender fluid or genderqueer or
non binary. We all exist under the
overarching transgender umbrella.
(28:27):
Just because I'm non transitioning, just because I am
comfortable enough in my male biology to choose not to
transition, it doesn't mean I'm not transgender.
Yeah. But if you are, if you're going
under the lens of no, no, no, no, no, what we mean is this
gender are those people who are uncomfortable in their biology
(28:48):
and need to make a change cosmetically, chemically,
surgically. If you are defining it based on
those two differences, then yes,1 is a choice to remain male or
assigned epper, and there is a choice to transition in some way
to what makes you feel most comfortable and what feels most
true and right for you and your body.
(29:10):
I think the choice thing is justkind of like saying, I mean
they. Can relieve it.
That's why I saw Vince. It's just it's confusing because
it's like, I guess cross dressing.
You can say there's a choice in pursuing it, but what's it?
The clothes, the private time, the girls trip, the putting on
the pantyhose, And then what's pursuing being gay?
(29:30):
You know what I mean? Like the getting with someone of
the same sex, the choosing to leave.
It's all very skewed for me. The choosing to get top surgery,
bottom surgery. To live your truth or not to
live your truth. Like that's all choices in terms
of how we choose. See, we choose to pursue who we
are really because there are millions of people, I can
(29:52):
imagine millions of trans babiesor trans elders that are
choosing to live the life of theGod that shows their biology for
them or never acting upon the sickness that is their truth.
I don't know. It's all very confusing.
And to me, I stand firmly in thesense that I don't believe cross
(30:12):
dressing is a choice. You know I.
You know what? I I see you're, I see you're
struggling because I know you'retrying to make sense of it.
I agree with everything you're saying.
The choice is the term of choosing or not choosing.
It being something we choose to do or not choose to do.
I think it is. It's a misnomer.
It doesn't make sense to the human experience.
(30:35):
We either choose to pursue the fullness of who we are in the
authenticity, in the most honestversion of ourselves.
We choose to make that decision every day, every day.
And it's not just a matter of I transition now I have tits and I
have facial feminization, or I choose to be female to male.
(30:55):
We make choices to be the most honest version of ourselves.
And the choice, right, hard or easy, is to assert that truth in
your daily life. Right.
I understand that there's also acommunity of trans women out
there and maybe trans men that are furious at crossdressers
because they believe that they're choosing to keep their
(31:18):
male privilege. And then there they are at their
selective girls weekends and whenever they want to do
whenever they want to. Why would they choose to have an
affair with their feminine self for 40 years of marriage and not
tell their spouse? Because it's something so
shameful, but yet keeping it from them, in my opinion, is
(31:40):
such a radical act of self love for themselves and for this
person they're married to. I will stand by that because
they have to do this in order toexist.
They have to keep these separatelives in order to follow their
truth. And what happens?
It comes out they choose or beyond their choices, the
(32:01):
universe chooses to expose this to the family, to the kid that
catches their dad, to the wife. And then what?
Do they choose to have a divorce?
Do they choose to have all theirthings in some safety lock box
that their friend of a friend ofa friend knows in case they die?
All of these things are life things.
(32:21):
And I was going to say life choices, but it just won't come
out of their mouth. I know many gay people would say
why would we choose this or why would we choose to be trans?
Well, why would you choose to goin against your biology and on
the fact that maybe you get turned on by something that is
frilly and lazy? You wouldn't choose this.
(32:42):
It is not something unless it's like, Oh yeah, it's hot, baby,
and I'm going to pursue it and Ifeel comfortable and competent.
It's hot because it's taboo. I'm sorry.
So that's an angle that is true and real.
It's hot because it's taboo. It's edgy.
It's not of the norm of society.So when I read this meme that I
didn't even bother to look down at all the comments because we
(33:06):
have our own comments and feelings.
And again, I know there'll be a moment.
I knew going into this that there'll be a moment where I
would just lose it because I'm not secure in any of the
positions that I'm in. But I know waking up, getting
dressed, brushing our teeth, getting in our car, going to
work, these are all choices we make.
(33:28):
But all that other stuff that wewish wholeheartedly wasn't a
part of ourselves. But we're just giving it.
It's inside of our body. You know?
We're not. We meaning me, the crossdressers
of America and Latter Day Saints.
Just kidding. When we show up as our feminine
self, it's because there's something inside of us that
needs to be expressed to the world, for the world validated.
(33:52):
When we dress and we show up andwe look in the mirror just for
ourselves, there's something that needs to be validated.
There's something inside of us that has been suppressed,
oppressed, and there's somethingreally beautiful about the idea.
Cross dressing and pre or post or non sexual change,
(34:14):
transgender individuals can all be within one beautiful
genderqueer umbrella That feels peaceful to me, peaceful to me.
I'm able to sit with this topic and for me, what feels right to
me, what feels good to me, is all of those little iterations
of expression and identities that aren't of the binary that
(34:40):
we were given right when we cameout of the womb.
There is room for every iteration underneath this
umbrella and all of the identities and all of the people
that are in this magical umbrella in my mind and in my
heart, they didn't choose to be there.
They're just there. Yeah, yeah.
And like I said, why would we choose this?
Why would we choose the hard path?
(35:01):
Nobody's. You know, what would really make
my life harder is to do cross dressing or to be trans or to be
gay or to be a weirdo or to be awhatever.
It's like we nobody chooses those avenues of life and all.
And yeah, the one that you said suppressed, oppressed, and I'm
going to repress. These are all things that we
(35:23):
face on the daily that we have to fight ourselves and society
to get above it. But yet somehow for me, being
able as Savannah to de cloak andgo back to life as Chuck and
then whatever I feel like it becomes as glamorous Savannah to
go out on the town for a few hours.
Is that my choice? Yes.
(35:45):
But does that make it a choice? No, because every time I go as
Savannah, something terrible could happen to me.
Living a life as Savannah still has its problems in the world.
So I don't choose to just be like, oh, it's easy for me
because I could just choose not to do it.
Yes, I can choose not to do it. And how many times have you and
(36:06):
I have spoken to each other, to you and your clients, me, who
I've heard stories from many, many people on social media who
struggle like you mentioned at the top of the show, binging and
purging, where I need to get ridof this because it's such an
albatross around my neck. So I'm going to just get rid of
it. I'm slamming my hand down saying
(36:27):
I'm not that person. I'm going to be normal.
And then six months later, it's like.
Do you remember that? Thing yeah, I'm still that thing
that is not a choice whether it's cross dressing, whether
it's quote, UN quote the transgender variance.
Yes, we may run through life andkind of hit the spectrum and
cross dressing was used as a wayas a mechanism to find your
(36:47):
truth in and your transness thatgoes beyond simply non
transitioning, non gender. I get that.
We I think we both understand that fully.
It is about the fact that just because there is a choice or and
or a need to transform ourselvesat a more permanent basis right
does not make the choice or needof cross dressing in a non op
(37:11):
non transitioning basis any lessof a need of a just a part of
who we are. Right.
Or your femaleness. Yeah, whatever percentage that
plays in your life, it's there. It's real.
And everyone's journey and everyone's steps are very
personal to themselves, like what they want to do with this.
(37:32):
I think that that to say that there are no choices within
discovering your truths would bea misnomer, would be false, and
would be irresponsible of us. For example, there's a client I
knew once that had this sexual reassignment surgery on the
books, right? But then as we were processing
through coaching and stuff like that, they realized that the HRT
(37:55):
did enough down there to make itso that that part didn't bother
them as much. So our work together was
basically reexamining the idea of womanhood for them rather
than checking off these marks. OK.
So choosing to have something like bottom surgery, it comes
(38:15):
with a lot of complications. It can be, for lack of a better
word, a dangerous surgery if youdon't do your research.
And it is one of those choices where I shouldn't say choices.
It is one of those options for people that if their life as a
woman doesn't depend on it, takea breath.
You may not need it. For me, the choice to get top
(38:37):
surgery or a bottom surgery should always be because your
life depends on it, because yourfemininity depends on it.
Because this needs to happen so that you can feel 100% as the
woman you are today. Now, some people can view that
as a choice, Some people can view it as not a choice, a
necessity. And the ones that view it as a
(38:58):
necessity, go for it. You don't have to explain to
anyone. Those of you who view it as a
choice, do some research. Think about if you really,
really need this. It's.
Not where you need to be. Exactly for you, not for anyone
else, not for what your age bracket says as reaching true
womanhood or what your friend said or what your mentor said.
(39:21):
And I'm not trying to drop a whole bag of questions at the
end of an episode, but I am. Because that's what this is all
about. This beautiful podcast and this
beautiful understanding. It's not coming up with the
answers at the end and just being like, see ya, you know,
we'll be here every Wednesday, folks, and sometimes every other
Wednesday. This is an opportunity for you
(39:42):
to reflect, ask questions, yell at us as you're driving, argue
with us, and then come up with your own truth in terms of
choices and options for you, of how this can look to all of our
listeners, whether they just came on to hear the show or
whether they've been with us fora while.
You have made the choice to continue to listen to us.
(40:06):
If you're a new listener to say,hey, I've heard about this
podcast in the community, I'm going to check it out.
You've chosen to be with us through this discussion.
It may be uncomfortable to listen to and isn't always easy
and to stick with us through theend.
That was your choice. At any point you could have
popped up and be like peace and something you might have.
And to that I say have a nice day.
(40:28):
We're not for everyone for. Everyone, I'm going to stick
with that. That's my choice.
Speaking of everyone, did I tellyou that Brianna Tracy?
Yeah, I'm calling you out, dear Lesner.
Had to tell my husband on the way home from picking us up at
the airport on Keystone that youcould listen to our podcast on
Apple. Was it Apple podcast or
(40:48):
whatever? Anyhow, he listens to it
regularly now in his car. OK, awesome.
I don't know. Any new listeners?
All right. Welcome.
Welcome, my husband to one. Thought it was enough having me
in the next room. OK, I'm a Scorpio.
I like to keep things tight and right.
I love you, Sky. OK, so bye for now.
Until. Next time you can find me on
(41:11):
Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing and
on Instagram at Savannah Hawk. Remember that's HAUK.
And to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hanger or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhanger.com.
(41:38):
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and cofounder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Hi, Julie, How are you today?
You're looking very radiant and amazing today.
Thank you, I just rubbed some beef tallow all over my face.
(00:49):
But don't worry it's grass fed and it has manuka honey, some
oils. It's the latest rage on TikTok.
Don't worry about him. I will not worry about it
because those two words togetherto me does not represent
something I want to put on my face unless it's connected to AT
Bone Steak where that beef tallow just ends up just
(01:11):
dripping off my chin. Look, it's all about the beef
tallow peoples, and this has probably been started by farmers
since the start of time, OK? It's like these influencers
come, they think they create something new, but really it's
like a secret that's been pushedthrough the ages and suddenly it
enters the metaverse and everyone's talking about it.
(01:31):
And so it's like, whatever, I'm actually going to finish the
jar. That's my goal.
I got my pimple patches on the deck because, you know, you
think if you rub a beef all overyour face.
I mean, they say it doesn't the pores, but you know, I'm
expecting some clogged pores. I'll tell you this, when I was,
oh, I don't know, 15 1/2 to 17 years old, I worked at Wendy's
(01:53):
and I worked on the grill and wehad a lot of beef and a lot of
flipping burgers and then pressing them down.
And I I have a feeling that a lot of beef tallow.
Yes. Emanated from the grill into my
pores and then I went home and had plenty of pimple as a result
because my face was all greasy and gross.
So I don't know if the same thing or not, but I definitely
(02:14):
remember the byproducts of beef getting on my face.
Now I need to actually this one but I believe the beef tallow is
of a certain location on the cowthat has healing properties.
I'm not trying to cheapen and yucky Yum for your Wendy's
experience but just know that I will finish this whole jar and
(02:37):
if cystic acne enters the thing I will be an influencer who will
suddenly go on and say look all those tallow bitches with that
Titan ton skin. It's a lie because I got cystic
acne and all I had to do was finish the jar.
OK, I'm just saying if it does. If it does, If it does, you'll
tell it straight. That is so punny.
(02:58):
I just love it. I've known you as long as I
have. I got that.
That was a pun one before. I'd be like, wait, what?
If a pun doesn't utter itself from my mouth, I wouldn't know
to do it myself. I.
Bet like utter, like the cows utter.
That's it, but move on. All right, that is too much.
I used to not be able to get that humor.
It's like if you're feeding me fresh green grass and it's yeah,
(03:21):
I'm not going to do that. Dry humor is where I'm at.
But I get where you're at. So let's move on down down the
road as in The Wiz, the musical starring Diana Ross, OK?
And Michael Jackson, Yes, as theScarecrow.
As you know, how are you? Beat you at least my birthday
coming up soon and yeah. Yep, Yep, Yep.
(03:41):
And by soon it's probably over our past.
As of this recording, we had a backyard Bush situation.
There was a bunch of little brown dots and all the leaves,
little grassy bushes. And so Judy did some research
and find out that, yeah, you gotta do, you gotta cut all that
back. The problem is you can't cut all
that back because all the new growth is all interspersed.
(04:02):
So her and I were sitting on ourbump kisses in a backyard next
to the fence, trying so desperately to take out all the
old growth among all the new growth on these 12 bushes we
have. And I suffered after it because
I have a bad lower back. My muscles are sore, my lower
back is tight. It's spasming.
(04:24):
I'm just like, Oh my God, I hatebeing this old.
I'm sorry. It's OK.
Truth be told, when you said I have a birthday coming up which
will probably be passed as of this episode, I was in the party
mindset. OK, so when you said I have a
backyard Bush, I don't know if you said situation, but I heard
in my mind a celebration. I don't know what I was
(04:46):
thinking, but suddenly you got into the the brown and the
sitting on your tocuses and and all that.
So you fooled me once. Shame on you.
You fooled me twice. Let's have a real party.
OK, so any we're going on a journey, the Fox and the Phoenix
podcast is it's a journey. OK, where are we on this journey
today? Where are we?
(05:07):
Where are we a topic? We are at the point of our
episode where I'm going to tell you the topic because it is my
week to come up with the topic and my topic was pulled from the
metaverse, if you will, as many of our topics are where I came
across a meme. Let me just bring it up.
(05:28):
A meme that was in maroon and you know, I love me a deep
Crimson. OK, the maroon and in white
letters it said cross dressing achoice, being transgender, not a
choice. Now, just from knowing you, I
already know right there with the title that you have
something to say about it. So I'd love she could just say
(05:50):
what you're going to say and then I'm going to say what I'm
going to say and then we're going to talk and then you all
are going to listen. It'll be a great episode, this
topic. When I presented to you, my
sweet Savannah, you and I both agreed that this was something
that is always relevant. That is always something that we
can circulate on every every couple of years and it will
(06:10):
still be as fresh and as new andas timely as ever.
Hopefully that will be the case forever, but that is how it is
today as it stands. And yeah, I'd love to hear
you're opening as it relates to this topic.
Oh, thank you, Madam Debate Chair, I'd like to say, am I
opening Ramall? No, You sent me this meme from
some time ago and said, hey, butthis topic and my first answer
(06:34):
to you was, oh, that's a topic that's still divisive.
Yeah. And we are going off under
little journeys and come back around and then you resurface
this. Now I took a closer look at it,
the name itself, and the first thing I thought was, well, then
language is wrong. You're right.
Meaning that it says cross dressing a choice, being
(06:55):
transgender, not a choice. And I'm like, well, one's a verb
and one's a noun. So in and of itself, I had
issues with it in my grammaticalbody because as we've talked
about before and I've mentioned before, cross dressing is an
action, is an art form, is a thing you do.
So yes, in the very general generic sense, yes, cross
(07:18):
dressing is a choice. Could you choose to make that
decision to take your biologically male body and adorn
it with feminine clothing or padding, makeup, wigs, etcetera,
to get to the result that being transgender not a choice?
I completely agree. Being transgender is not a
choice. It is something you are.
(07:38):
It's inherent within yourself. So my first thing is I have lots
of problems with the meme as a hey let's discuss kind of thing
and then see what the comments bring back.
I would say the idea of being a cross dresser a choice, being
transgender not a choice. I still feel that both are not a
choice yet if it's about their intersectionality between each
(08:05):
other. There's a huge spectrum and
divide of what those things mean.
So the way I look at it, yes cross dressing is a choice to
do. But I've spoken about it many
times. The reason why we are cross
dressing or choose to cross dress has an underlying element
to it that puts us in the trans spectrum, under the trans
(08:28):
umbrella in some way. Either non binary genderqueer
and you're fluid. And again, then the other part
is, well, are we saying transgender from the umbrella
perspective or transgender from AI?
Don't feel right in my biological body perspective that
absolutely. Those two things are very much
their own thing and you really can't compare them.
(08:51):
So there's a lot of problems with the question being asked
the way it was asked as if you're either this or you're
that. And if you're 1 means one thing,
and if your other means something completely different,
and there's such overlap that I think it's great to have the
conversation about. Yeah.
And I appreciate you saying all that because when I first looked
at this, I definitely had my ownkind of feelings and
(09:14):
perspectives that I will come tothe table with in a couple of
seconds. But at second glance, I was able
to see it from your perspective,just from knowing you as a dual
gender transgender identified human being.
So I'm going to go back to my take and my perspective because
that's what makes our collaboration and our
(09:35):
relationship so dynamic is oftenwhen we come completely
different perspectives and then we meet in the middle.
So for me, when I looked at thisit, it brought up a lot in terms
of my belief systems and my truths as to how I was raised in
terms of what cross dressing means for me and the community
(09:57):
I've worked with. For me, the word cross dressing,
it's an action, absolutely, but it's also an identity.
And this is something that I have learned just from different
cross dressers that I worked with.
That said, you know, I identify as a cross dresser and that is a
label and a term that that has a.
(10:20):
Significance. Yes, thank you.
A significance, a pride to it. There's ownership for it.
It's something that when they dosay it to me, it's something
that they've owned versus something that they've hidden
the closet of shame. So it's something that they feel
very, very proud about. In the beginning, when we
started this podcast, I had a certain idea and belief system
(10:43):
about the clear differences between a crossdresser and a
transgender individual. And you and I had an episode in
the very beginning. And please, I urge all of you to
go back to those early episodes because it's one of those
episodes that showcases my growth and also showcases an
episode that was really kind of hard.
(11:03):
I don't know if it was hard to hear as a listener, but it was
hard for me. I had my hand over my face and
it was very, very difficult. It was more difficult for me to
produce the words and handle thedebate of it all or my now I
understand it lack of knowledge at the time compared to what I
know now to be true. But it was compelling
nonetheless. So nowadays I understand more
(11:27):
about the transgender umbrella. I understand more about the
genderqueer spectrum. I'm very comfortable
understanding the individuals I work with, whether they identify
as trans or cross dressing or kink or whatever it is.
I've really landed like you've really landed on the tool do
gender. I really landed on the term
(11:49):
genderqueer, this feminine genderqueer space that I have
been able to work through and develop an understanding for
through all these many hundreds and hundreds of different
genderqueer stories through the feminine lens.
So when I look at this about cross dressing, a choice, being
transgender, not a choice, I also am able to view the two as
(12:11):
very, very separate. Separate but equal.
OK, so when I think about the amount of processors that I've
known since starting Fox and Hanger to now.
And I think about the number of individuals that have gotten a
look book or who I have known who have completed the process
and then reach back out to me, whether we sent out a mailing
(12:32):
letter or whatever it is or they've gotten in contact with
me or I've got in contact with them.
And they said to me, please, I'mno longer a cross stretcher.
I don't want to be identified with any of that.
And please, please let go of my e-mail just to have them contact
me three to six months later andsay, hey, remember when I told
(12:54):
you I don't identify as a crossdresser anymore?
Well, that's not true. I've cross dressed again, or I
fully identify as a transgender female or, you know, fill in all
the blanks. I can't tell you how many
clients that I've known and beena part of their journey.
Where the binging and the purging.
Remember we talked about all those episodes ago where purging
(13:18):
is definitely the, it's an action, but it's also very much
a metaphor for wanting to get rid of the physical parts of
themselves. That makes this true for them.
You know, with the bigger idea being they're trying to get rid
of themselves. They're trying to get rid of any
evidence that is themselves. They're trying to get rid of
nails or getting rid of the wigs.
(13:39):
So they're getting rid of the dresses, the skirts.
You and your relationship with your feminine self is true and
it's real. And unfortunately, it goes far
beyond physical clothing that make you become this person.
It's deep and for many starts inchildhood where it starts in
adolescence. And it's not something I believe
(14:00):
that you can change. It's not something I believe is
a choice. So that's where I'm coming to
this discussion with and I wouldlove to get your feedback on
what I said and then just process all of this because it
really is something that I thinkwill involve a lot of stopping
and a lot of starting of this episode.
(14:20):
If you're listening with your significant other, I think it's
an episode worthy of bringing toyour therapist.
I think it has a lot of healing properties just in the
discussion points that we've made thus far and the discussion
points that we're going to make before finishing this episode.
Well, yes, I agree with you and yes, I do see your growth all
the time and you've done the same for me and expanding my
(14:43):
repertoire of knowledge or understanding or just empathy
for others whose stories I haven't heard yet.
But again, in my existence is all based on hearing stories
from others and finding those things that resonate for me.
So we're talking about cross dressing a choice.
I totally agree. There are equal but mutually
exclusive in a lot of ways. We know that some people if you
(15:06):
look at that the overlapping circles so like cross dressing
and transgender in somewhere in the overlap is those people who
have moved towards or moved awayfrom cross dressing as a cell
label and said I now identify astransgender or I feel you know,
that is cross trust. It was the gateway drug to get
(15:27):
them to do that self reflection,get them to really dig deep like
the clothing, the makeup, the curves.
Let them embody themselves in a more truthful way that allow
them to open up their own mind to the possibilities for what
their journey is heading toward,whether that be transitioning,
whether it to be maybe living non transitioning, but as a
(15:49):
different gender or as and then Mal gone along the way in their
body and in their life. Whereas you have somebody like
me, It's right there in my book,the living with cross dressing
for the non transitioning crossdresser.
That doesn't mean I don't feel Iam trans because I do.
I have come to my own understanding that the reason
why I cross dress is because I am dual gender.
(16:13):
So for me, I believe 1 like you said, it's not a choice to cross
dress. It is something we do because we
are trying to develop or envelope or find a part of
ourselves that can't be accessedotherwise.
So clothing and the curves and the makeup allow us to to
pinpoint that within ourselves and harness it.
(16:35):
I feel that that's where my soul's at.
That being said, I do want to also say that there are plenty
of people who cross dress that are not looking to do it for any
other reason then it makes them feel good.
They like to do it as bedroom plan, come home after a long day
and they find that it makes themmore relaxed or escapism.
(16:58):
But they don't do it for any other reason than this tactile,
comforting, confining, erotic way of being.
But they don't have necessary a name to it.
Like for me, I think one of the big changes or the big
departures from quote UN quote, just being a crosshouser for a
specific emotional benefit is that I came up with a name.
(17:21):
There was a necessity for me to come up with an identity, a
persona that I could embody as that person.
It wasn't like Chuck in a dress.It is Savannah.
Savannah became my feminine outlet, became something that I
was able to present to the world.
And I think that's another key component.
If I'm just doing it because I come home and I like to be in a
satin robe and will thigh high stockings, or I just love to do
(17:46):
it because it makes me feel sexyand erotic, those are things
that you don't need to necessarily name, like come up
with a Stoner for yourself. And also that's only for at
home. That's only the bedroom.
That's only for personal use forme.
We've had this conversation where Judy is like, why can't
you just dress up at home? And I'm like, because that
doesn't feel right to me. I feel like I need to be part of
(18:08):
the world in this form. And I think that's another part
where one, it wasn't a choice, it was a knee.
I could dress up every night when I got home and she'd be
happy though, say if it's comfortable at home.
But for me, that just didn't feel right.
It felt ick. I felt like, well, I'm just
doing it. It's just in a bigger prison.
Like I always say, a bigger the house is now the closet versus a
(18:29):
closet being a closet, right? In a literal sense.
And I'm like, no, I need to be out in the world.
I need to be, We have this very accepted, but I need to be out
there, right And as this person.Yeah, and that's wholly
different, doing things just foryourself.
I have this client I'm thinking of in my head.
Let me just say who approaches their cross dressing like one
(18:49):
would approach at the end of theday, having a whiskey on the
rocks, you know where they just like to do it.
And they are interested in corsetry, they're interested in
wigs, but not so much for shape shifting their identity to the
most feminine place. They know what girt lengths they
like. They have a very specific
(19:10):
aesthetic and that is just for themselves because they feel
good and they feel pretty in it and it relaxes them and they
feel good in it. Now it's.
Not for public consumption. Right, And we had, through our
work together, we had come up with a feminine name and the two
of us came up with that femininename.
(19:30):
It's just something to play around with.
But again, that's what it felt like.
It didn't feel like something that was wholly there's that
this is the name and this is howidentified.
Thank you so much for giving me that compass to this feminine
name that means something so much.
It was exactly just to play around with.
And I'm not even talking about kinky play.
(19:50):
I'm talking about just, OK, let's if they had to have a
feminine name, what would it be like?
You know, kind of like when you're in 4th grade playing the
game Mash and you're like Mansion House Shack that I'd
want to marry David Fishman and I want to live in a shack in
Hawaii. It was just kind of like a
whimsical conversation. Give me just a little more
attention and filling out some of the pieces.
(20:13):
But for others the name is. Everything, it's their namesake,
it's their feminine lace in the world, whether it be part time,
full time, it's very meaningful.So what makes the Fox in the
Phoenix podcast so dynamic and ever flowing with topics is the
idea that like a box, we are brilliant at shape shifting.
(20:38):
When we would like to present indifferent ways, we are careful
and we are cutting and we make sure that we leave no rock
unturned in terms of being slickand sly.
And like a phoenix were able to rise.
Rise from the oppression, rise from the ashes and rise with our
own unique story of this. And it's an ever flowing cycle.
(21:01):
You may rise once and be your fullest expression of feminine
in your fullest relationship with this part of yourself.
And then you may crumble throughshame or therapy or rebirth or
illness or divorce or age, and then rise again like a phoenix
and rebirth this other version of yourself.
What was true for me in terms ofhow I viewed crossdressing and
(21:24):
how I be transgender? Well, I don't know if I got to
mention this in the last part ofwhen I said this today, but I
used to think that crossdressers, they had a
certain kink to their dressing. It was people who had a kink or
had some sort of something that happened when they put on female
clothes and they had some sort of charge to dressing this way.
(21:47):
And being transgender means you've never lived a sis day in
your life. That sentence came to me.
My therapist denies it, but it came to me from someone whose
name May Rhymes Mallory. And I just locked in in terms of
their belief. And it made a home and it made
sense to me, right? And so that's what I came to the
table with as Julie, this professional and this expert in
(22:09):
my field. And when I was able to read your
book before even laid out episode one for the peoples, I
just remember, I remember exactly where I was and I just
remember just shouting, thank you, thank you.
Like this is what you know, hundreds upon hundreds and
hundreds of people must experience right now in terms of
(22:29):
having a place, having somethingtangible.
I mean, yes, there's online reading, fine, but something
tangible that they can touch andunderline and feel validated in
such a way that says, hey, you can still identify.
And I say this very rebelliouslybefore you as I understand how
you use and understand the term cross dressing as a an action
(22:51):
for me. I was able to say, Oh my
goodness, thank you so much for giving me this information.
Thank you so much for now my ability to use what I understand
here and to help those cross dressing individuals that say
this is my identity. And Oh my goodness, I realized
from Savannah's book, it's not akink, it's not sick.
It's not something that is to live in the closet and be
(23:14):
shamed. It is something that can be
normalized. It is something that is not just
one thing. Well, hey, it's 20 different
things. It's 20 different things.
And what I've learned over the years since cracking open that
book and having this revelation is that it can also be kind of
transgender. It can also have some
similarities, overlaps, and partnership with a transgender
(23:38):
experience, if you choose to call it that.
If that is something that was inyour unique genderqueer journey,
you decide this fits me. Like you said, being in your
house and not leaving, it didn'tfit you, didn't fit you well.
I challenge everyone, all of ourlisteners and all of those
listeners that have cracked openSavannah's first book or second
(24:02):
book or now the third book, to revisit that first book and see
how do you feel about this topicor has it changed?
How have you evolved from the person you were?
Because I feel like when you sayto me, Savannah, you say, I
still check in with myself everynow and then and question
things. How do I feel about my
(24:23):
sexuality? Well, I know that I am attracted
to the feminine, the feminine aesthetic.
And how do I feel about my transness?
Well, it's my transness. I identify as a transgender
woman as it pertains under the trans umbrella.
So it is really important that we constantly, constantly are
checking in with ourselves and see what is still true, what
(24:46):
still exists and what could be redefined if you will.
Oh, absolutely. But it's funny, you've mentioned
that phrase before. I've ever lived as this day of
my life and I've never thought that about myself.
But looking back on my pre adolescence, not knowing any
better, first of all, and you'rea child of 6789.
You're not thinking about your again cisgender.
(25:08):
That term didn't even exist tilllike yesterday.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like cisgender was only a
reaction to somebody being called transgender.
It's like homosexual. Nobody was, you know, yeah, they
were straight, but nobody was like, I'm a straight white man.
But as always, like look at those homosexuals over there was
like we never had to label our normalness, quote UN quote, and
we only the otherness. So as a child who's sitting
(25:30):
there going, I feel different. I'd like these things.
I don't see other little boys doing those things, but I do it
for myself. That was not a choice.
It was a choice to pursue it, but it wasn't a choice in my
body and mind to say Nah, I'm not doing that.
That's not what little boys do. I'm going to just maintain my
normal lifestyle. I don't know if I've ever
(25:53):
experienced a CIS day in my lifebecause I don't know if I would
even know what that would look like.
I wouldn't have this struggles I've had, and you mentioned
those things where I'm fighting to be reborn, to evolve, to
constantly check in with myself.Yeah, all humans should do that.
But I don't know if every heteronormative heterosexual
(26:15):
human being sitting there going.I feel about myself today.
A lot of people are making thosechoices of looking inward.
They're living life as they always do without questioning.
And I'm always questioning. I'm always looking.
I'm always saying, like you said, OK, well, I like the
feminine, but does that include trans females who look feminine?
(26:37):
Does it include this? Does it include that was like
the more I learn about what is true out in the world, the more
you have to think about it. It just kind of like put your
fingers on the pulse of it for aminute and see how you feel
about it going back. Yes, there are many quote UN
quote cross dressers, just crossdressers who make a choice to do
(27:00):
cross dressing cross play, whatever you want to call it
just for fun or self-expression or for art performative, maybe
non dry clean performative. They just do it to do it and
maybe it doesn't mean much to them.
Maybe they do not question theirgender normative nature.
But yet I feel that because as we all know, it's not a
(27:23):
spectrum. It's a Galaxy of choice.
Self labeling. What is true for me is not true
for somebody else. Some are based on trauma, some
are based on environment, some are based on this internal need.
I don't think in any of the cases that we're talking about
today, there is a choice. I think that everything is a
reaction to something and I'd bequestioning this.
(27:43):
Like you said, my journey between book 1 and the second
living with crossroads and then general one O 1 is all of those
are just reactions to my groat of reassessing where I am in
life for myself. So anytime I write, writing is
my journaling, writing is my finding out more about my nature
and it fortunately is it actually is cognitive and
(28:05):
accessible enough for other people to read it, which I'm
delighted that people have read it and have found some resonance
in it. All that rambling to say, as a
cross dressing person, I identify as dual gender, or you
could call it bi gender or gender fluid or genderqueer or
non binary. We all exist under the
overarching transgender umbrella.
(28:27):
Just because I'm non transitioning, just because I am
comfortable enough in my male biology to choose not to
transition, it doesn't mean I'm not transgender.
Yeah. But if you are, if you're going
under the lens of no, no, no, no, no, what we mean is this
gender are those people who are uncomfortable in their biology
(28:48):
and need to make a change cosmetically, chemically,
surgically. If you are defining it based on
those two differences, then yes,1 is a choice to remain male or
assigned epper, and there is a choice to transition in some way
to what makes you feel most comfortable and what feels most
true and right for you and your body.
(29:10):
I think the choice thing is justkind of like saying, I mean
they. Can relieve it.
That's why I saw Vince. It's just it's confusing because
it's like, I guess cross dressing.
You can say there's a choice in pursuing it, but what's it?
The clothes, the private time, the girls trip, the putting on
the pantyhose, And then what's pursuing being gay?
(29:30):
You know what I mean? Like the getting with someone of
the same sex, the choosing to leave.
It's all very skewed for me. The choosing to get top surgery,
bottom surgery. To live your truth or not to
live your truth. Like that's all choices in terms
of how we choose. See, we choose to pursue who we
are really because there are millions of people, I can
(29:52):
imagine millions of trans babiesor trans elders that are
choosing to live the life of theGod that shows their biology for
them or never acting upon the sickness that is their truth.
I don't know. It's all very confusing.
And to me, I stand firmly in thesense that I don't believe cross
(30:12):
dressing is a choice. You know I.
You know what? I I see you're, I see you're
struggling because I know you'retrying to make sense of it.
I agree with everything you're saying.
The choice is the term of choosing or not choosing.
It being something we choose to do or not choose to do.
I think it is. It's a misnomer.
It doesn't make sense to the human experience.
(30:35):
We either choose to pursue the fullness of who we are in the
authenticity, in the most honestversion of ourselves.
We choose to make that decision every day, every day.
And it's not just a matter of I transition now I have tits and I
have facial feminization, or I choose to be female to male.
(30:55):
We make choices to be the most honest version of ourselves.
And the choice, right, hard or easy, is to assert that truth in
your daily life. Right.
I understand that there's also acommunity of trans women out
there and maybe trans men that are furious at crossdressers
because they believe that they're choosing to keep their
(31:18):
male privilege. And then there they are at their
selective girls weekends and whenever they want to do
whenever they want to. Why would they choose to have an
affair with their feminine self for 40 years of marriage and not
tell their spouse? Because it's something so
shameful, but yet keeping it from them, in my opinion, is
(31:40):
such a radical act of self love for themselves and for this
person they're married to. I will stand by that because
they have to do this in order toexist.
They have to keep these separatelives in order to follow their
truth. And what happens?
It comes out they choose or beyond their choices, the
(32:01):
universe chooses to expose this to the family, to the kid that
catches their dad, to the wife. And then what?
Do they choose to have a divorce?
Do they choose to have all theirthings in some safety lock box
that their friend of a friend ofa friend knows in case they die?
All of these things are life things.
(32:21):
And I was going to say life choices, but it just won't come
out of their mouth. I know many gay people would say
why would we choose this or why would we choose to be trans?
Well, why would you choose to goin against your biology and on
the fact that maybe you get turned on by something that is
frilly and lazy? You wouldn't choose this.
(32:42):
It is not something unless it's like, Oh yeah, it's hot, baby,
and I'm going to pursue it and Ifeel comfortable and competent.
It's hot because it's taboo. I'm sorry.
So that's an angle that is true and real.
It's hot because it's taboo. It's edgy.
It's not of the norm of society.So when I read this meme that I
didn't even bother to look down at all the comments because we
(33:06):
have our own comments and feelings.
And again, I know there'll be a moment.
I knew going into this that there'll be a moment where I
would just lose it because I'm not secure in any of the
positions that I'm in. But I know waking up, getting
dressed, brushing our teeth, getting in our car, going to
work, these are all choices we make.
(33:28):
But all that other stuff that wewish wholeheartedly wasn't a
part of ourselves. But we're just giving it.
It's inside of our body. You know?
We're not. We meaning me, the crossdressers
of America and Latter Day Saints.
Just kidding. When we show up as our feminine
self, it's because there's something inside of us that
needs to be expressed to the world, for the world validated.
(33:52):
When we dress and we show up andwe look in the mirror just for
ourselves, there's something that needs to be validated.
There's something inside of us that has been suppressed,
oppressed, and there's somethingreally beautiful about the idea.
Cross dressing and pre or post or non sexual change,
(34:14):
transgender individuals can all be within one beautiful
genderqueer umbrella That feels peaceful to me, peaceful to me.
I'm able to sit with this topic and for me, what feels right to
me, what feels good to me, is all of those little iterations
of expression and identities that aren't of the binary that
(34:40):
we were given right when we cameout of the womb.
There is room for every iteration underneath this
umbrella and all of the identities and all of the people
that are in this magical umbrella in my mind and in my
heart, they didn't choose to be there.
They're just there. Yeah, yeah.
And like I said, why would we choose this?
Why would we choose the hard path?
(35:01):
Nobody's. You know, what would really make
my life harder is to do cross dressing or to be trans or to be
gay or to be a weirdo or to be awhatever.
It's like we nobody chooses those avenues of life and all.
And yeah, the one that you said suppressed, oppressed, and I'm
going to repress. These are all things that we
(35:23):
face on the daily that we have to fight ourselves and society
to get above it. But yet somehow for me, being
able as Savannah to de cloak andgo back to life as Chuck and
then whatever I feel like it becomes as glamorous Savannah to
go out on the town for a few hours.
Is that my choice? Yes.
(35:45):
But does that make it a choice? No, because every time I go as
Savannah, something terrible could happen to me.
Living a life as Savannah still has its problems in the world.
So I don't choose to just be like, oh, it's easy for me
because I could just choose not to do it.
Yes, I can choose not to do it. And how many times have you and
(36:06):
I have spoken to each other, to you and your clients, me, who
I've heard stories from many, many people on social media who
struggle like you mentioned at the top of the show, binging and
purging, where I need to get ridof this because it's such an
albatross around my neck. So I'm going to just get rid of
it. I'm slamming my hand down saying
(36:27):
I'm not that person. I'm going to be normal.
And then six months later, it's like.
Do you remember that? Thing yeah, I'm still that thing
that is not a choice whether it's cross dressing, whether
it's quote, UN quote the transgender variance.
Yes, we may run through life andkind of hit the spectrum and
cross dressing was used as a wayas a mechanism to find your
(36:47):
truth in and your transness thatgoes beyond simply non
transitioning, non gender. I get that.
We I think we both understand that fully.
It is about the fact that just because there is a choice or and
or a need to transform ourselvesat a more permanent basis right
does not make the choice or needof cross dressing in a non op
(37:11):
non transitioning basis any lessof a need of a just a part of
who we are. Right.
Or your femaleness. Yeah, whatever percentage that
plays in your life, it's there. It's real.
And everyone's journey and everyone's steps are very
personal to themselves, like what they want to do with this.
(37:32):
I think that that to say that there are no choices within
discovering your truths would bea misnomer, would be false, and
would be irresponsible of us. For example, there's a client I
knew once that had this sexual reassignment surgery on the
books, right? But then as we were processing
through coaching and stuff like that, they realized that the HRT
(37:55):
did enough down there to make itso that that part didn't bother
them as much. So our work together was
basically reexamining the idea of womanhood for them rather
than checking off these marks. OK.
So choosing to have something like bottom surgery, it comes
(38:15):
with a lot of complications. It can be, for lack of a better
word, a dangerous surgery if youdon't do your research.
And it is one of those choices where I shouldn't say choices.
It is one of those options for people that if their life as a
woman doesn't depend on it, takea breath.
You may not need it. For me, the choice to get top
(38:37):
surgery or a bottom surgery should always be because your
life depends on it, because yourfemininity depends on it.
Because this needs to happen so that you can feel 100% as the
woman you are today. Now, some people can view that
as a choice, Some people can view it as not a choice, a
necessity. And the ones that view it as a
(38:58):
necessity, go for it. You don't have to explain to
anyone. Those of you who view it as a
choice, do some research. Think about if you really,
really need this. It's.
Not where you need to be. Exactly for you, not for anyone
else, not for what your age bracket says as reaching true
womanhood or what your friend said or what your mentor said.
(39:21):
And I'm not trying to drop a whole bag of questions at the
end of an episode, but I am. Because that's what this is all
about. This beautiful podcast and this
beautiful understanding. It's not coming up with the
answers at the end and just being like, see ya, you know,
we'll be here every Wednesday, folks, and sometimes every other
Wednesday. This is an opportunity for you
(39:42):
to reflect, ask questions, yell at us as you're driving, argue
with us, and then come up with your own truth in terms of
choices and options for you, of how this can look to all of our
listeners, whether they just came on to hear the show or
whether they've been with us fora while.
You have made the choice to continue to listen to us.
(40:06):
If you're a new listener to say,hey, I've heard about this
podcast in the community, I'm going to check it out.
You've chosen to be with us through this discussion.
It may be uncomfortable to listen to and isn't always easy
and to stick with us through theend.
That was your choice. At any point you could have
popped up and be like peace and something you might have.
And to that I say have a nice day.
(40:28):
We're not for everyone for. Everyone, I'm going to stick
with that. That's my choice.
Speaking of everyone, did I tellyou that Brianna Tracy?
Yeah, I'm calling you out, dear Lesner.
Had to tell my husband on the way home from picking us up at
the airport on Keystone that youcould listen to our podcast on
Apple. Was it Apple podcast or
(40:48):
whatever? Anyhow, he listens to it
regularly now in his car. OK, awesome.
I don't know. Any new listeners?
All right. Welcome.
Welcome, my husband to one. Thought it was enough having me
in the next room. OK, I'm a Scorpio.
I like to keep things tight and right.
I love you, Sky. OK, so bye for now.
Until. Next time you can find me on
(41:11):
Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing and
on Instagram at Savannah Hawk. Remember that's HAUK.
And to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hanger or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhanger.com.
(41:38):
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
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