June 4, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode, Savannah brings up the concept of defining people by a mental projection of a box with a label on it. Stemming from both a conversation with her therapist and from her TEDX Emory talk, "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression", the idea that people instantly create an opinion of others based on what they know about somebody based on descriptors or how they present themselves to the world is an idea that keeps people from exploring and discovering more about others more intimately and deeply to get to the heart of the individual in the crosshairs.
-----
SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
------
JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, understanding
the feminine cross dressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
cross dressers and transgender women.
Hey, Julie. Hi, Savannah.
Welcome to a special Thursday recording edition of the Fox and
Phoenix podcast. How are?
You, I'm good. I'm actually dressed with a
stylish intention. I had a a consultation today.
(00:52):
Normally you see me where I'm like, you know, just woke up.
You got AT shirt on. I don't know, like I don't bring
it for us because it's already been brought it.
If you mean you know what I meanand you keep on commenting on my
appearance, I'm like wow, I really have lowered the bar for
our two calls. All I can say is oh.
(01:14):
Stop all I'm saying. All I'm saying now you look
amazing your your hair. I just love the little tendrils
of hair and you got your signature earrings and I just I
think it's just pop the. Pop the pop of the It's all
about the left. And we've talked about that and
I know and episode's gone by thepop of the list is everything
(01:35):
so. I have a little mascara, blue
mascara, which shows that I needto get more because I want to
hit that phase hard. The blue mascara and eyeliner.
Yeah, and but it's all about thepop of the left for me.
I love it. Just love it.
Love everything about you, kiddo.
I'm like, tell me more. Tell me more than I'm like, oh,
yeah. Wait, hey, hey, hey, everyone.
(01:57):
Welcome to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast.
I'm like. To the love fest.
Also, I'm not coming off AI. Went to Starbucks and did a
bunch of editing. I'm fresh off work, work, work,
so it's different. It was been a weird week.
You ever had one of those weeks where you have a bunch of emails
(02:20):
and you start looking at them and they seem throw away at the
beginning and then all of a sudden you're like, oh, this one
needs my attention. And you work on it.
And then all of a sudden there'sappointments later and then
you're like, oh, oh, there's more emails and they seem throw
away. And then all of a sudden it was
like 5:00 today. All I did was troubleshoot
emails, decipher emails, try to assess what to do with that.
(02:44):
Oh my God, all week this week has been that.
I mean, could be worse. I could be like in a hot sun,
swing a sledgehammer, I don't know.
Yeah, and I could be underwhelmed as a preschool
teacher changing shiitake mushroom diapers and living the
dream as far as the disinfectantwipes go, and have some some
disease, because that's a disease area, the preschool.
(03:06):
That's true, and God knows you've had many a time where
you've fallen prey to the germs.All right, but now I'm not, and
I'm elevated. Anyhow, what do we have today on
the diggity docket? What, what, what, what, what we
have today. It stemmed from my second Ted X
talk that I gave, and that was at Ted X Emory, which was about
(03:27):
stereotyping people, making rashand brash decisions about people
that you've just met seconds after meeting them.
And it also came up with my therapist.
And it wasn't even in therapy when we're done and we're
walking to the door and we just had this whole conversation
about how we put people in tiny little boxes and that spawned a
(03:50):
whole bevy of things. And I wanted to just read what
I, I'll read what I sent to you in preparation of this
conversation. So the topic idea I sent to
Julie a couple days ago was people with inflexible,
specific, quote UN quote, close boxes about their world views
and perspectives, AKA. And these are a couple of
(04:11):
examples. And again, it may or may not
apply. People with tattoos are who are
all considered thugs and convicts and riff raff, or
people who are gay or trans thatare considered abominations
based on Bible teachings or based on people's perception or
interpretation of Bible verses. And then those same people like
(04:32):
while religious people like me are amazing because I do all the
right things according to the people that are around me.
So all this leads to the need tobreak down rigid boxes in order
to really see a person. And when you integrate yourself
into a situation where people have these conceptions and
perceptions, you get to watch asthey have to wrestle with the
(04:54):
stability and strength of the boxes that they have built.
So the conversation I'd love to have with you today is 1.
What do you do when people have predetermined your destiny based
on the boxes they have put you in, how they have labeled you?
And we'll get into very quickly the fact that almost all human
beings love to classify and categorize things.
(05:16):
That's how we make decisions on things we know versus things we
don't know. And then what do you do when
you're faced with that type of person who you're like, hey, I'm
Savannah. Then they instantly have this
glare and glaze over their eyes because they've already
predetermined your worth. And then what do you do to
possibly the last thing I said in a little synopsis was if
(05:39):
you're able to reach them on specific levels, we can talk
about the ways to do that is youhave you watch a person struggle
with like they had determined who you are and what you are
based on the label they've givenyou upon meeting.
And then also you have to watch them tear that box open and do
something different with it and look at themselves and at you in
(06:01):
a different way of what way? This box doesn't make sense
anymore for the person I've justmet and spent time with and can
see differently. Yeah, it's so it's so
interesting because when I thinkabout cross dressing alone as an
example, in the beginning, there's so many different boxes.
Cross dressing individuals want to put themselves inside, to
(06:24):
feel whole, to feel like they have this identity, to make
sense of whatever it is that's happening within their world.
So they decide I'm a kink, I'm athis, but that.
Or when thinking about newly diagnosed autism or ADHD as
grown-ups. OK, so that's the box.
(06:45):
This is what I'm told I am. I'm going to go in this box and
learn everything there is to know about this box.
But when it comes to, and there's a lot of examples I can
come up with where the person finds a box that fits them, gets
in the box, snuggles up real tight and really holds on to
that box. While ignoring the fact that
(07:07):
this can also be true about you and that goes outside the box.
Or this can also be true. And if it's not outside the box,
well then it's a different box. You have the parenting box, you
have the adult child box, you have the goes to church every
Sunday box. And oftentimes these box can
contradict with each other and can bump up against each other.
(07:30):
And it could be really confusingbecause I think that everyone
wants to find their place. Everyone wants to find their
community, their anchoring. And when you can't, you just
feel lost, right? And then there's the idea about
other people's perceptions of usjust based on looking at us,
just based on the fact if we have tattoos or don't have
(07:52):
tattoos, if we're a Republican or a Democrat, suddenly when we
hear someone is trans and a Republican, suddenly someone's
minds could be like, well, how, how could you?
What? No, that that doesn't fit the
box or has all these tattoos buthas never rode a bike in their
life or has, I don't know, myself, as someone who likes to
(08:16):
break down the edges of the box and just not put myself in any
box or not believe in boxes, this is something that really
piques my interest when it comesto yeah, but this and that can
be true. This and that can be true at the
same time. You can put yourself in that box
fine, as long as you want to, but here's another box that is
(08:36):
equally true, and that's fine. Yeah, I absolutely agree.
You've been a huge proponent of this and that can both be true
at the same time. I like your example.
I'm trans and a Republican and Ifeel the same way.
Wait how is that possible? Based on what we've seen from
certain Republicans in the worldwhich make us believe was like
(08:58):
dude it seems like they're all anti trans.
Why would you align yourself that way?
And yet there are many conservative things that come
out of the Republican Party or aparty like that, that they
appeal to that person. So for us to be like, well, what
I know from a trans person and what I know from that box and
from a Republican box, those twothings can't coexist.
(09:19):
It's impossible. It's impossible, but it's
possible because it happens. I am very much a self labeler.
I'm like a Dymo labeler. I love to just assign myself
things. Yet I constantly assert that The
thing is ever changing. I feel it's all in the same box.
For me, it's like, well, cross dressing or cross dresser, just
(09:43):
a cross dresser. And then I'm like, well,
actually that box doesn't reallyexist even though it does.
But I'm also this thing and I'm also this thing.
I'm also this thing and it's been an evolving narrative where
the box changes shape and size. Although I feel I'm always in
the box, the same box, same selflabeling.
But yet if I look outward to somebody who says they are by
(10:03):
gender or a cross dresser, and of course, of course, I'm only
going to take take that self description of them and apply
what I know to be true for me tothem.
And that is super, super dangerous in a lot of ways.
Yeah, especially if our boxes are so tight and so rigid and so
(10:24):
binary. For example, in this example I'm
thinking of, they have a 5:00 shadow that for you can be and
has been rather triggering as you work to just remain open and
say, well, you know what, this person's box of femininity looks
very different than my box of femininity.
And both are OK and true and real and I just need to
(10:47):
separate. But it's really hard when you
feel like the box that you've socarefully curated and so
carefully made a part of your entire being.
When someone comes along, they're like, oh, hey, they're
in my box. Hello.
And then they turn around and it's like the real it's your
shame. It represents your undone or
your flies unzipped or some sortof metaphor that equals this
(11:10):
showcasing of the male side, which is very against the very
binary world you live in when itcomes to your male to female
transformation, identity and allthat.
You know, it's in this day and age, it's really easy to raise
your hands up high and say, I don't fucking know.
(11:32):
It's easy to want to hide in boxes.
But at the same time, it's very easy to be like, I don't know
what's going on and I don't haveto.
And I'm just trying to hold on to a shred of who I am.
If I took the time, let's say I'm a scroller on Instagram,
right? If I took the time to look into
maybe an ex convict, or if I took the time to look into a
(11:54):
trans story or something that really fascinates me is when
someones taking testosterone, a trans man, and it shows like the
monthly kind of progression. Any time you have a chance to
take a moment to listen to someone else's story and really
counteract or challenge that boxyou thought at first glance just
(12:15):
by looking at their picture. If you stop and listen and hear
what they're saying, That I feelis the antidote to putting
people in boxes and quickly wanting to slap a label on
either yourself or someone else,if that makes sense.
It does, as I said at the top ofthe episode, where human nature
is to put ourselves in boxes andto decipher the world based on
(12:40):
categorizing things and putting them into knowable bins and
boxes and baskets. And everything we encounter that
is slightly Askew of those things we already know either
will try to fit them into the boxes we know versus really
investigating and creating something new as a new box.
(13:01):
You know, maybe you put it next to the first box, but it's not
in the first box. So that that's one thing of the
shoehorning what we think we know about somebody based on
physical inspection or the couple utterances or how we self
describe those things like, Oh, I know what a cross showster is.
Oh, I know that. I know what I've heard about
(13:22):
this and that and the other thing.
Therefore you're going to go right into that thing.
And we tend to do that first. We tend to do that to our their
own detriment as a very close minded and a closed boxed kind
of mentality versus just going in open intentionally,
selflessly to learn more about the person.
(13:44):
So in reality, everybody gets their own box.
You know, that box, as I said, is ever changing, especially if
you start having a relationship with that person and can see
their journey and they can see your journey.
The one thing, the one thing I Ireally didn't think about until
I started writing up the script for my second Ted X, but it was
all about misperception. That's 13 milliseconds to make a
(14:08):
decision about somebody like you've you've already figured
out who they are based on just seeing them for a split second.
And I realized that I was just as egregiously guilty of doing
that to others as I felt it was being done to me.
Yeah. I didn't think about it until I
started writing up this. Your phone.
Oh, yeah. Well, before I came to the
South, I just assumed everybody's going to string me
(14:29):
up and set me on fire and throw Bibles at me and call me a
faggot. I just assumed that's what's
going to happen. And I put myself away for six
months when I got down here, as we've told people, as a result
of my stereotyping and putting all of South Carolina in a box.
Yes, yes. And then ever since I I went to
(14:50):
that first meet up group and realized one, nobody gives a
shit. Nobody's looking at me, nobody's
paying attention to me, nobody'spursuing me or accosting me.
Then I realized, like man, I think this is my problem, not
their problem. And that was me being very
closed boxed about people aroundme that I knew nothing about
(15:11):
other than where they lived and how they may present themselves.
And how is that any different than what I thought they were
going to do to me? Yeah, it's really interesting
because what I'm hearing is thistheme of safety.
And so I think that's first and foremost for people.
They need to feel safe in order to survive, or else they're just
like fight or flight all the time, right?
(15:33):
So making assumptions or puttingpeople in boxes, as great as it
is for me to be open and listen to all these different stories,
I still typed in FTM for the trans man story.
I still put in the search enginea box that I want to learn more
about, if you will. When you were so scared and you
(15:55):
put South Carolina in a box and you were so scared to leave,
that is based on facts, that is based on words of like a
reputation, if you will. And it's understandable about
how you came up with this fear. It would be foolish to just go
in and be like, love one another, everybody get together,
(16:19):
try to love 1. You know what I mean?
It would be foolish to do that. So being aware of these boxes or
following your intuition about things, it's not bad or good.
It just is what it is. It is kind of the compass.
And then what happens once we challenge that box or we stay
(16:40):
around for a little bit extra and ask the questions and maybe
listen more than we talk or whatever it is, we finally take
off the lid of those boxes and kind of unfurl like a flower
would in spring. But we need to head towards it
With abandoned, like you felt the need not to leave your
house, to remain in a bigger closet, if you will, during the
(17:02):
first couple of months that you were there.
That's out of protection for yourself.
That's something you had to do before your body just said
enough, before your true self was like, get out there, what do
I have to lose? And then you were challenged
with every belief system you hadbecause it turned out for your
experience, the rumors weren't true, the South wasn't a bad
(17:24):
place. You found your place that feels
good and safe and all that. Bringing it back to the topic
about boxes and snap judgments based on appearance, I used to
say this all the time, that present to how you present
yourself is the message that yousend to the world.
So if your message that you're sending to the world based on
(17:46):
your presentation isn't in alignment to who you really are,
that's when some thought processneeds to come into play.
Because if you, let's say you dress sloppy and really want a
job that is very strategy oriented, everyone who looks at
you is going to think you're lazy because you're wearing
sleepy clothes and you're not dressing for that box.
(18:09):
You're not dressing for the box that you wish you want to jump
into. And so there's so many different
angles that we can go to when itcomes to boxes.
I like to think of it, have you ever seen one of those that like
OfficeMax or some places they'rebasically a rolling rack of
drawers? Yes, I have one right.
Here, and sometimes it has the different colors of the rainbow.
(18:33):
And I just like to think about aperson in terms of that eight
shelf rolling rack kind of thingwhere there are definitely
boxes, but you can open them andclose them and you can open 2 at
once. And that could be true.
And then you can fill a box withsomething else and then
reorganize these boxes. And I think that that's really
(18:55):
something to take away from thisis that boxes aren't a bad
thing. You just need to be able to jump
from box to box and know that it's fine to have more than one
shelf open at once. And that combination again, that
rolling shelf of 510 Brewers that that makes up one
individual. I mean, right, that's that
person's. Exactly that's.
(19:17):
What I for for sure drawer boxes.
And I think the problem, well, Iknow our problem as a human
species, we tend to just assume that rainbow drored rolling
unit. Well, that applies to everybody
in the queer community. That applies to all cross
dressers. That applies to everybody who's
a little a little femme. Little fruity ginger, spicy.
(19:39):
And I was like. Do I want to say fruity?
But I'm glad you said it becauseI was thinking it's a week, like
I said. Even so, they might think we're
more complex than that and that can have different drawers open
at the same time. I still feel that we lean too
hard into. Yeah, but everybody who's like
that is, is like that drawer unit as opposed to no, we're all
(20:00):
completely unique. And I think that's why we have
problems with. We talked about it the last week
or two about, you know, trans not a choice, cross dressing a
choice. The problem is that we in that
episode we got deep into the weeds of semantics.
Like what it is and what it isn't.
And you can't just say those twowords and then say, discuss,
(20:23):
come at it so simplistically. And I love where you're going
with it because I love that analogy and that metaphor and I
see it in my head. Yes.
Do I still self describe? Absolutely.
Do I still use that when I presented out to the world?
Absolutely. The thing I also have to
consider at all times is that everybody I say those words to
(20:44):
and those phrases to and those self describers does not mean
they understand it in the same way I do.
Because they come at it with their own perception, their own
perspective, their own way of seeing things, old way of being
brought up, what has been told to them, what propaganda they
have heard, their interactions from people previous like me.
I mean, Judy, Judy's best friend, who she spoke to when I
(21:06):
revealed Samantha to her, had been with a cross dressing
person who did it purely from a bedroom kink perspective, who
had very bad things to say aboutthe cross dressing community for
that simple, not that simple from that singular experience
with somebody like me or using the same terms.
(21:26):
So, yeah, to say that just because you're this, then all of
you are like this, it is a very dangerous game.
But it does also give me a lot of perspective.
Like my father, after the civil rights movement, he was in the
Air Force and there was a lot ofkind of like what we're facing
today with the DEI jobs like, oh, you got just because you're
(21:47):
a woman or you're black or you're this or that.
There was some of that in the Air Force where he had all the
pedigree to get to the next rank, let's say, of course, but
he was actually passed over because affirmative action in
his mind, he was passed over because a black man needed to
get that rank. He.
Needed. Sure, sure.
Sure. So he came out of that with a
(22:08):
very racist point of view. And he unfortunately, even
though he would say he was like,well, you know, there's some
good ones, he would say that unfortunately, but he saw the
entirety of the race singularly because of his experience in the
Air Force. Now that gives me a perspective
because I can see where he's coming from.
(22:28):
But it's that thing about the close box again, the fact that
he, it happened to him, he put it in the box, he closed that
box and that was now his way of viewing the world for the
entirety of the rest of his life.
And if we can keep from doing that, we can keep open minded,
we can keep that box open because say, Oh yeah, you know
what, let me, like you said, letme take this thing out of that
drawer. Let me move somewhere else and
(22:50):
keep modifying our opinion or modifying our perception and
perspective. I think we're destined for
greatness. Yeah, and I encourage our cross
dressing community to just challenge yourself with the
boxes that you put yourself in. But I was having a consultation
today where the idea that this person was telling another
(23:12):
potential girlfriend someday that they are a cross dresser.
They don't do it for a kink and all that.
So they were very firm in their boxes, right?
This is who I am. This is what I'm going to be.
And you know, since doing this work and you know who I am, I'm
all about the challenging. You've got me into the whole
devil's advocate situation whereI had to bring up the idea that
(23:35):
we are sexual beings and it is OK if you are a feminine cross
dressing, genderqueer individualand you get aroused by feminine
clothes and femininity in a sexual way.
That doesn't mean that it's all a kink.
That just means you're a sexual being and there's nothing wrong
(23:58):
with that. That's one of the one of the
ways in which you can express this beautiful world that is
your femininity. That's a part of it.
Now it's very easy that once we say, oh, it's not a kink, that a
part of the crossdresser's brainjust associates sexuality with
kinkiness, with everything they're not.
(24:20):
So it's closing down, clamping down on that experience that
they could have with a potentialpartner in the future.
So always challenge those boxes.Always try to see if they're too
small, if maybe you need a little more room in there, maybe
it's a little dusty, you know, if the lid is on a little too
(24:42):
tight, just push that lid off and let some air in and let some
sun sunshine in and let some questioning in.
Yes. Right.
Yes. One of the last things I want to
get into, which was part of the summary, was watching the person
across from you wrestle with something different than with
(25:04):
their assumptions up to that point.
So for instance, you know me, I'm always going out to
Starbucks. I'm always ready to not Duke it
out, but have that conversation with anybody who wants to ask me
questions there. There's some things that come up
to that. And what I just said, the intent
is they have to want, they have to want to have that
conversation. I'm never going to change
(25:25):
somebody's mind just for my sheer existence in the world.
Somebody has to have a leaning, an inkling, some foot in an open
door that's going to allow them to say, you know what, I want to
challenge my assumptions. Let me do the thing.
Let me ask the question. Let me watch Savannah watch this
(25:46):
cross dressing person in the world and I'll just look up at
them every so often and see whatthey're doing and Oh my God,
they're not causing us saying they're not being whatever.
And maybe that's enough. Maybe that's enough.
So what I wanted to like do withthe lead out with on this was
how can we be agents of change? How can we just by being
(26:08):
ourselves help others, like you said, open that lid, air out
that box, maybe take some thingsout, move them around, shift
their perception of others like us and as well as we should do
with others. So the first thing is engaging
with a person, I think assessingwho that person is, what their
(26:29):
intent is, if they're being genuine, if they're being kind,
obviously those are going to be things that for you, the person
trying to be the agent of change, needs to be like, yeah,
that might be a little too dangerous, or this seems like a
perfect opportunity. Let's get into it.
You know what, maybe some other time.
I think that's important. And #1 because of what that
(26:49):
does, that protects you, the agent, to say, you know what?
I'm not here to change your mind, but I would love to.
I'm not saying that I wouldn't love to change your mind, but
it's not my job to change your mind.
There are a lot of people who are like, I'm here to plant the
flag and show the world that we are worthy.
Yes. There's like almost like an army
(27:10):
behind me. I am leading this charge.
That's not me. It would never be me.
My charge is through my voice, through this podcast, through my
writings, etcetera. So knowing where it's best to
step, I think it's super important because I have to also
protect myself. But I can be that agent and I'm
(27:32):
like, wow, this seems like a really excellent opportunity.
I may take it, I may not. Else I might be like, no, I want
to protect my peace. I want to come away with not
feeling like more burden on myself because of this
interaction. Right.
And you've gotten so much betterat setting those boundaries in
Messenger from what I know aboutyou, because you used to just
(27:52):
feel the need to teach and educate all the time and change
people's minds all the time through Messenger, even the ones
that would be inappropriate. You'd be like, this will be a
cause for a teachable moment. And I mean, it served you until
it didn't. But at the end of the day, like
you said, it's keeping that peace for ourselves and not not
(28:13):
holding the burden of 1000 different stories because we
just happened to be this advocate.
We're also living with cross dressing.
You're living with cross dressing yourself.
You might have wrote the book and you know, this Keystone was
a perfect example of this, whereyou finally have a cohort.
You finally have a group of friends.
Just through doing all these different speaking engagements
(28:36):
and putting yourself in that professional box and saying to
yourself, OK, I can't let my hair down, no pun intended.
I have to still maintain the Savannah, the Ted Talk Savannah
and the author Savannah and I, Ihave to hold postures.
And I think that through the years, you've really especially
I keep on just watching you justbe in your element in a way that
(28:57):
was like, I am a part of this community.
I'm not above it. I'm a person who also deserves
to have an experience. So stepping out of the
professional box and stepping into the box of you and your
identity is something that, you know, it really makes sense that
you were attracted to this topicbecause, you know, we're
understanding and we're growing and we're constantly looking at
(29:19):
these boxes, you and I, and trying to figure out if they
still fit. Yeah, yeah, so, and I love what
you say because you're talking about setting boundaries.
If, if somebody were to come at me in public, it questioned my
worth or question my validity asa human being, I had my rights
to be out in the world setting boundaries, being kind of
(29:40):
myself, being kind of others. If you can't be kind, well, you
can't be kind. But you should definitely set a
boundary to protect yourself. But then the one thing that
needs to be said is, I guess I would love to have a
conversation with somebody yet do I have to put my advocate hat
on? Do I have to have my whole hat
on? Do I have to do the things?
Then again, you know, that's just part of me being that
(30:03):
person. I want to lead with that because
I think it's important. I think it's a great thing who
we are and what we have to give to the world, which we do all
the time, every Wednesday or every other one, say depending
and. In our work and who we are, we
just do and. Education is great and wanting
to let people in and educate, but as I said, also at the
onset, they have to want it. They have to have an interest.
(30:26):
They have to have some synopsis in our brain that says, you know
what, I'm ready to hear something.
I might not agree with it, I want to hear it.
Yeah, and let me just backtrack a little for my statement
because it will bother me and I won't be able to finish this
whole thing. I was mainly talking about the
pervs that would just be like, you're hot and you're like, I'm
actually a person and you know what I mean?
(30:49):
Like that kind of thing where they just come at you sideways
and you'd be like, this is a moment to educate so you give
them more than they're they deserve basically.
But as a people pleaser, yeah, as a people pleaser, I'm that
way for everybody I know. Yes, I can.
I can sniff out those admirers quickly, Right?
(31:09):
And you're right. I just.
I'm fascinated by admirers and what drives them to approach
somebody in the way they do. I don't know what it is.
I'm just like I want to find. No, I am.
Why that is? No, I am.
I am too, but you and I need to still maintain our peace and I
think that in addition to the pervs, we give so much already
(31:32):
to the community. So what is ours to keep?
What is ours to cherish and whatis our choice to say?
You know what, I have these books on Amazon, you know what I
mean? Like because you have the right
to live your own cross dressing experience.
Yeah, yeah. And I unfortunately,
unfortunately got to a point where people keep asking me
questions because they want me to be the the encyclopedia for
(31:54):
their journey. I know.
I'm like, I want to help you, but there's a point where I'm
like, yeah, I did write the books.
We do have the podcast. I'm sure you can get a lot more
out of that versus just asking me a very singular isolated
question that really is not going to be rich enough in both
its asking and the response to really give you what you need to
(32:15):
go forward. So absolutely agree.
And here's a little spoiler. If you do want Savannah's
advice, by all means DM us with an with the topic idea and
suddenly we will get your full the full coverage answer to your
to your question. This was a great episode and
thank you so much for bringing it to the table well.
(32:39):
You're welcome. Yeah, it's kind of cool
recording on a different day. It changes the energy a little.
Yeah, I like it, but. Yeah.
But what is consistent is the Wednesday that we drop it,
Wednesday, Wednesday. Wednesday.
Drop it like it's hot. Drop it like it's hot.
So anywho, I was going to end with a song, but I just had a
(33:02):
perimenopausal brain fart slash ADD, so I'm not going to.
That's fine. Thank you to all of our
listeners that continue to inspire us to show up and to put
forth the best content. Thank you to everyone who has
shared our podcast and who has talked about us in therapy and
(33:24):
behind our backs. We appreciate it and all the
accolades that we get, you know,listenership and the volume and
all this exciting stuff is because of you.
And we wouldn't be where we are if it wasn't for our listeners.
So keep on keeping and. You know what, before we go, I
(33:45):
want to say, just say in these wise, wise words, thank you for
being a friend. Thank you for being a friend.
Walking down the road and backing.
Oh my God, I just yucked your Yum with my musicality.
It's all good. That way you get your
musicality. I could just say something silly
based on a show lyric, so it's all good.
(34:07):
How about winter, spring, summer, fall?
All you got to do is go to my website.
I prefer that to calling Fox andHanger and I'll be there.
Yes, I will, because you've got a friend.
And you got a friend in me. You got a friend in me.
If you want to know more, go to Amazon.com and there's three
(34:28):
living with books that you can order.
She's we so silly. Hee hee, shameless plug.
All right, Bye sweetie. Bye.
Bye for now everyone. Until next time, that was cute.
You can find me on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with
(34:51):
Cross Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK and to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hangar or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhangar.com.
(35:14):
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, understanding
the feminine cross dressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
cross dressers and transgender women.
Hey, Julie. Hi, Savannah.
Welcome to a special Thursday recording edition of the Fox and
Phoenix podcast. How are?
You, I'm good. I'm actually dressed with a
stylish intention. I had a a consultation today.
(00:52):
Normally you see me where I'm like, you know, just woke up.
You got AT shirt on. I don't know, like I don't bring
it for us because it's already been brought it.
If you mean you know what I meanand you keep on commenting on my
appearance, I'm like wow, I really have lowered the bar for
our two calls. All I can say is oh.
(01:14):
Stop all I'm saying. All I'm saying now you look
amazing your your hair. I just love the little tendrils
of hair and you got your signature earrings and I just I
think it's just pop the. Pop the pop of the It's all
about the left. And we've talked about that and
I know and episode's gone by thepop of the list is everything
(01:35):
so. I have a little mascara, blue
mascara, which shows that I needto get more because I want to
hit that phase hard. The blue mascara and eyeliner.
Yeah, and but it's all about thepop of the left for me.
I love it. Just love it.
Love everything about you, kiddo.
I'm like, tell me more. Tell me more than I'm like, oh,
yeah. Wait, hey, hey, hey, everyone.
(01:57):
Welcome to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast.
I'm like. To the love fest.
Also, I'm not coming off AI. Went to Starbucks and did a
bunch of editing. I'm fresh off work, work, work,
so it's different. It was been a weird week.
You ever had one of those weeks where you have a bunch of emails
(02:20):
and you start looking at them and they seem throw away at the
beginning and then all of a sudden you're like, oh, this one
needs my attention. And you work on it.
And then all of a sudden there'sappointments later and then
you're like, oh, oh, there's more emails and they seem throw
away. And then all of a sudden it was
like 5:00 today. All I did was troubleshoot
emails, decipher emails, try to assess what to do with that.
(02:44):
Oh my God, all week this week has been that.
I mean, could be worse. I could be like in a hot sun,
swing a sledgehammer, I don't know.
Yeah, and I could be underwhelmed as a preschool
teacher changing shiitake mushroom diapers and living the
dream as far as the disinfectantwipes go, and have some some
disease, because that's a disease area, the preschool.
(03:06):
That's true, and God knows you've had many a time where
you've fallen prey to the germs.All right, but now I'm not, and
I'm elevated. Anyhow, what do we have today on
the diggity docket? What, what, what, what, what we
have today. It stemmed from my second Ted X
talk that I gave, and that was at Ted X Emory, which was about
(03:27):
stereotyping people, making rashand brash decisions about people
that you've just met seconds after meeting them.
And it also came up with my therapist.
And it wasn't even in therapy when we're done and we're
walking to the door and we just had this whole conversation
about how we put people in tiny little boxes and that spawned a
(03:50):
whole bevy of things. And I wanted to just read what
I, I'll read what I sent to you in preparation of this
conversation. So the topic idea I sent to
Julie a couple days ago was people with inflexible,
specific, quote UN quote, close boxes about their world views
and perspectives, AKA. And these are a couple of
(04:11):
examples. And again, it may or may not
apply. People with tattoos are who are
all considered thugs and convicts and riff raff, or
people who are gay or trans thatare considered abominations
based on Bible teachings or based on people's perception or
interpretation of Bible verses. And then those same people like
(04:32):
while religious people like me are amazing because I do all the
right things according to the people that are around me.
So all this leads to the need tobreak down rigid boxes in order
to really see a person. And when you integrate yourself
into a situation where people have these conceptions and
perceptions, you get to watch asthey have to wrestle with the
(04:54):
stability and strength of the boxes that they have built.
So the conversation I'd love to have with you today is 1.
What do you do when people have predetermined your destiny based
on the boxes they have put you in, how they have labeled you?
And we'll get into very quickly the fact that almost all human
beings love to classify and categorize things.
(05:16):
That's how we make decisions on things we know versus things we
don't know. And then what do you do when
you're faced with that type of person who you're like, hey, I'm
Savannah. Then they instantly have this
glare and glaze over their eyes because they've already
predetermined your worth. And then what do you do to
possibly the last thing I said in a little synopsis was if
(05:39):
you're able to reach them on specific levels, we can talk
about the ways to do that is youhave you watch a person struggle
with like they had determined who you are and what you are
based on the label they've givenyou upon meeting.
And then also you have to watch them tear that box open and do
something different with it and look at themselves and at you in
(06:01):
a different way of what way? This box doesn't make sense
anymore for the person I've justmet and spent time with and can
see differently. Yeah, it's so it's so
interesting because when I thinkabout cross dressing alone as an
example, in the beginning, there's so many different boxes.
Cross dressing individuals want to put themselves inside, to
(06:24):
feel whole, to feel like they have this identity, to make
sense of whatever it is that's happening within their world.
So they decide I'm a kink, I'm athis, but that.
Or when thinking about newly diagnosed autism or ADHD as
grown-ups. OK, so that's the box.
(06:45):
This is what I'm told I am. I'm going to go in this box and
learn everything there is to know about this box.
But when it comes to, and there's a lot of examples I can
come up with where the person finds a box that fits them, gets
in the box, snuggles up real tight and really holds on to
that box. While ignoring the fact that
(07:07):
this can also be true about you and that goes outside the box.
Or this can also be true. And if it's not outside the box,
well then it's a different box. You have the parenting box, you
have the adult child box, you have the goes to church every
Sunday box. And oftentimes these box can
contradict with each other and can bump up against each other.
(07:30):
And it could be really confusingbecause I think that everyone
wants to find their place. Everyone wants to find their
community, their anchoring. And when you can't, you just
feel lost, right? And then there's the idea about
other people's perceptions of usjust based on looking at us,
just based on the fact if we have tattoos or don't have
(07:52):
tattoos, if we're a Republican or a Democrat, suddenly when we
hear someone is trans and a Republican, suddenly someone's
minds could be like, well, how, how could you?
What? No, that that doesn't fit the
box or has all these tattoos buthas never rode a bike in their
life or has, I don't know, myself, as someone who likes to
(08:16):
break down the edges of the box and just not put myself in any
box or not believe in boxes, this is something that really
piques my interest when it comesto yeah, but this and that can
be true. This and that can be true at the
same time. You can put yourself in that box
fine, as long as you want to, but here's another box that is
(08:36):
equally true, and that's fine. Yeah, I absolutely agree.
You've been a huge proponent of this and that can both be true
at the same time. I like your example.
I'm trans and a Republican and Ifeel the same way.
Wait how is that possible? Based on what we've seen from
certain Republicans in the worldwhich make us believe was like
(08:58):
dude it seems like they're all anti trans.
Why would you align yourself that way?
And yet there are many conservative things that come
out of the Republican Party or aparty like that, that they
appeal to that person. So for us to be like, well, what
I know from a trans person and what I know from that box and
from a Republican box, those twothings can't coexist.
(09:19):
It's impossible. It's impossible, but it's
possible because it happens. I am very much a self labeler.
I'm like a Dymo labeler. I love to just assign myself
things. Yet I constantly assert that The
thing is ever changing. I feel it's all in the same box.
For me, it's like, well, cross dressing or cross dresser, just
(09:43):
a cross dresser. And then I'm like, well,
actually that box doesn't reallyexist even though it does.
But I'm also this thing and I'm also this thing.
I'm also this thing and it's been an evolving narrative where
the box changes shape and size. Although I feel I'm always in
the box, the same box, same selflabeling.
But yet if I look outward to somebody who says they are by
(10:03):
gender or a cross dresser, and of course, of course, I'm only
going to take take that self description of them and apply
what I know to be true for me tothem.
And that is super, super dangerous in a lot of ways.
Yeah, especially if our boxes are so tight and so rigid and so
(10:24):
binary. For example, in this example I'm
thinking of, they have a 5:00 shadow that for you can be and
has been rather triggering as you work to just remain open and
say, well, you know what, this person's box of femininity looks
very different than my box of femininity.
And both are OK and true and real and I just need to
(10:47):
separate. But it's really hard when you
feel like the box that you've socarefully curated and so
carefully made a part of your entire being.
When someone comes along, they're like, oh, hey, they're
in my box. Hello.
And then they turn around and it's like the real it's your
shame. It represents your undone or
your flies unzipped or some sortof metaphor that equals this
(11:10):
showcasing of the male side, which is very against the very
binary world you live in when itcomes to your male to female
transformation, identity and allthat.
You know, it's in this day and age, it's really easy to raise
your hands up high and say, I don't fucking know.
(11:32):
It's easy to want to hide in boxes.
But at the same time, it's very easy to be like, I don't know
what's going on and I don't haveto.
And I'm just trying to hold on to a shred of who I am.
If I took the time, let's say I'm a scroller on Instagram,
right? If I took the time to look into
maybe an ex convict, or if I took the time to look into a
(11:54):
trans story or something that really fascinates me is when
someones taking testosterone, a trans man, and it shows like the
monthly kind of progression. Any time you have a chance to
take a moment to listen to someone else's story and really
counteract or challenge that boxyou thought at first glance just
(12:15):
by looking at their picture. If you stop and listen and hear
what they're saying, That I feelis the antidote to putting
people in boxes and quickly wanting to slap a label on
either yourself or someone else,if that makes sense.
It does, as I said at the top ofthe episode, where human nature
is to put ourselves in boxes andto decipher the world based on
(12:40):
categorizing things and putting them into knowable bins and
boxes and baskets. And everything we encounter that
is slightly Askew of those things we already know either
will try to fit them into the boxes we know versus really
investigating and creating something new as a new box.
(13:01):
You know, maybe you put it next to the first box, but it's not
in the first box. So that that's one thing of the
shoehorning what we think we know about somebody based on
physical inspection or the couple utterances or how we self
describe those things like, Oh, I know what a cross showster is.
Oh, I know that. I know what I've heard about
(13:22):
this and that and the other thing.
Therefore you're going to go right into that thing.
And we tend to do that first. We tend to do that to our their
own detriment as a very close minded and a closed boxed kind
of mentality versus just going in open intentionally,
selflessly to learn more about the person.
(13:44):
So in reality, everybody gets their own box.
You know, that box, as I said, is ever changing, especially if
you start having a relationship with that person and can see
their journey and they can see your journey.
The one thing, the one thing I Ireally didn't think about until
I started writing up the script for my second Ted X, but it was
all about misperception. That's 13 milliseconds to make a
(14:08):
decision about somebody like you've you've already figured
out who they are based on just seeing them for a split second.
And I realized that I was just as egregiously guilty of doing
that to others as I felt it was being done to me.
Yeah. I didn't think about it until I
started writing up this. Your phone.
Oh, yeah. Well, before I came to the
South, I just assumed everybody's going to string me
(14:29):
up and set me on fire and throw Bibles at me and call me a
faggot. I just assumed that's what's
going to happen. And I put myself away for six
months when I got down here, as we've told people, as a result
of my stereotyping and putting all of South Carolina in a box.
Yes, yes. And then ever since I I went to
(14:50):
that first meet up group and realized one, nobody gives a
shit. Nobody's looking at me, nobody's
paying attention to me, nobody'spursuing me or accosting me.
Then I realized, like man, I think this is my problem, not
their problem. And that was me being very
closed boxed about people aroundme that I knew nothing about
(15:11):
other than where they lived and how they may present themselves.
And how is that any different than what I thought they were
going to do to me? Yeah, it's really interesting
because what I'm hearing is thistheme of safety.
And so I think that's first and foremost for people.
They need to feel safe in order to survive, or else they're just
like fight or flight all the time, right?
(15:33):
So making assumptions or puttingpeople in boxes, as great as it
is for me to be open and listen to all these different stories,
I still typed in FTM for the trans man story.
I still put in the search enginea box that I want to learn more
about, if you will. When you were so scared and you
(15:55):
put South Carolina in a box and you were so scared to leave,
that is based on facts, that is based on words of like a
reputation, if you will. And it's understandable about
how you came up with this fear. It would be foolish to just go
in and be like, love one another, everybody get together,
(16:19):
try to love 1. You know what I mean?
It would be foolish to do that. So being aware of these boxes or
following your intuition about things, it's not bad or good.
It just is what it is. It is kind of the compass.
And then what happens once we challenge that box or we stay
(16:40):
around for a little bit extra and ask the questions and maybe
listen more than we talk or whatever it is, we finally take
off the lid of those boxes and kind of unfurl like a flower
would in spring. But we need to head towards it
With abandoned, like you felt the need not to leave your
house, to remain in a bigger closet, if you will, during the
(17:02):
first couple of months that you were there.
That's out of protection for yourself.
That's something you had to do before your body just said
enough, before your true self was like, get out there, what do
I have to lose? And then you were challenged
with every belief system you hadbecause it turned out for your
experience, the rumors weren't true, the South wasn't a bad
(17:24):
place. You found your place that feels
good and safe and all that. Bringing it back to the topic
about boxes and snap judgments based on appearance, I used to
say this all the time, that present to how you present
yourself is the message that yousend to the world.
So if your message that you're sending to the world based on
(17:46):
your presentation isn't in alignment to who you really are,
that's when some thought processneeds to come into play.
Because if you, let's say you dress sloppy and really want a
job that is very strategy oriented, everyone who looks at
you is going to think you're lazy because you're wearing
sleepy clothes and you're not dressing for that box.
(18:09):
You're not dressing for the box that you wish you want to jump
into. And so there's so many different
angles that we can go to when itcomes to boxes.
I like to think of it, have you ever seen one of those that like
OfficeMax or some places they'rebasically a rolling rack of
drawers? Yes, I have one right.
Here, and sometimes it has the different colors of the rainbow.
(18:33):
And I just like to think about aperson in terms of that eight
shelf rolling rack kind of thingwhere there are definitely
boxes, but you can open them andclose them and you can open 2 at
once. And that could be true.
And then you can fill a box withsomething else and then
reorganize these boxes. And I think that that's really
(18:55):
something to take away from thisis that boxes aren't a bad
thing. You just need to be able to jump
from box to box and know that it's fine to have more than one
shelf open at once. And that combination again, that
rolling shelf of 510 Brewers that that makes up one
individual. I mean, right, that's that
person's. Exactly that's.
(19:17):
What I for for sure drawer boxes.
And I think the problem, well, Iknow our problem as a human
species, we tend to just assume that rainbow drored rolling
unit. Well, that applies to everybody
in the queer community. That applies to all cross
dressers. That applies to everybody who's
a little a little femme. Little fruity ginger, spicy.
(19:39):
And I was like. Do I want to say fruity?
But I'm glad you said it becauseI was thinking it's a week, like
I said. Even so, they might think we're
more complex than that and that can have different drawers open
at the same time. I still feel that we lean too
hard into. Yeah, but everybody who's like
that is, is like that drawer unit as opposed to no, we're all
(20:00):
completely unique. And I think that's why we have
problems with. We talked about it the last week
or two about, you know, trans not a choice, cross dressing a
choice. The problem is that we in that
episode we got deep into the weeds of semantics.
Like what it is and what it isn't.
And you can't just say those twowords and then say, discuss,
(20:23):
come at it so simplistically. And I love where you're going
with it because I love that analogy and that metaphor and I
see it in my head. Yes.
Do I still self describe? Absolutely.
Do I still use that when I presented out to the world?
Absolutely. The thing I also have to
consider at all times is that everybody I say those words to
(20:44):
and those phrases to and those self describers does not mean
they understand it in the same way I do.
Because they come at it with their own perception, their own
perspective, their own way of seeing things, old way of being
brought up, what has been told to them, what propaganda they
have heard, their interactions from people previous like me.
I mean, Judy, Judy's best friend, who she spoke to when I
(21:06):
revealed Samantha to her, had been with a cross dressing
person who did it purely from a bedroom kink perspective, who
had very bad things to say aboutthe cross dressing community for
that simple, not that simple from that singular experience
with somebody like me or using the same terms.
(21:26):
So, yeah, to say that just because you're this, then all of
you are like this, it is a very dangerous game.
But it does also give me a lot of perspective.
Like my father, after the civil rights movement, he was in the
Air Force and there was a lot ofkind of like what we're facing
today with the DEI jobs like, oh, you got just because you're
(21:47):
a woman or you're black or you're this or that.
There was some of that in the Air Force where he had all the
pedigree to get to the next rank, let's say, of course, but
he was actually passed over because affirmative action in
his mind, he was passed over because a black man needed to
get that rank. He.
Needed. Sure, sure.
Sure. So he came out of that with a
(22:08):
very racist point of view. And he unfortunately, even
though he would say he was like,well, you know, there's some
good ones, he would say that unfortunately, but he saw the
entirety of the race singularly because of his experience in the
Air Force. Now that gives me a perspective
because I can see where he's coming from.
(22:28):
But it's that thing about the close box again, the fact that
he, it happened to him, he put it in the box, he closed that
box and that was now his way of viewing the world for the
entirety of the rest of his life.
And if we can keep from doing that, we can keep open minded,
we can keep that box open because say, Oh yeah, you know
what, let me, like you said, letme take this thing out of that
drawer. Let me move somewhere else and
(22:50):
keep modifying our opinion or modifying our perception and
perspective. I think we're destined for
greatness. Yeah, and I encourage our cross
dressing community to just challenge yourself with the
boxes that you put yourself in. But I was having a consultation
today where the idea that this person was telling another
(23:12):
potential girlfriend someday that they are a cross dresser.
They don't do it for a kink and all that.
So they were very firm in their boxes, right?
This is who I am. This is what I'm going to be.
And you know, since doing this work and you know who I am, I'm
all about the challenging. You've got me into the whole
devil's advocate situation whereI had to bring up the idea that
(23:35):
we are sexual beings and it is OK if you are a feminine cross
dressing, genderqueer individualand you get aroused by feminine
clothes and femininity in a sexual way.
That doesn't mean that it's all a kink.
That just means you're a sexual being and there's nothing wrong
(23:58):
with that. That's one of the one of the
ways in which you can express this beautiful world that is
your femininity. That's a part of it.
Now it's very easy that once we say, oh, it's not a kink, that a
part of the crossdresser's brainjust associates sexuality with
kinkiness, with everything they're not.
(24:20):
So it's closing down, clamping down on that experience that
they could have with a potentialpartner in the future.
So always challenge those boxes.Always try to see if they're too
small, if maybe you need a little more room in there, maybe
it's a little dusty, you know, if the lid is on a little too
(24:42):
tight, just push that lid off and let some air in and let some
sun sunshine in and let some questioning in.
Yes. Right.
Yes. One of the last things I want to
get into, which was part of the summary, was watching the person
across from you wrestle with something different than with
(25:04):
their assumptions up to that point.
So for instance, you know me, I'm always going out to
Starbucks. I'm always ready to not Duke it
out, but have that conversation with anybody who wants to ask me
questions there. There's some things that come up
to that. And what I just said, the intent
is they have to want, they have to want to have that
conversation. I'm never going to change
(25:25):
somebody's mind just for my sheer existence in the world.
Somebody has to have a leaning, an inkling, some foot in an open
door that's going to allow them to say, you know what, I want to
challenge my assumptions. Let me do the thing.
Let me ask the question. Let me watch Savannah watch this
(25:46):
cross dressing person in the world and I'll just look up at
them every so often and see whatthey're doing and Oh my God,
they're not causing us saying they're not being whatever.
And maybe that's enough. Maybe that's enough.
So what I wanted to like do withthe lead out with on this was
how can we be agents of change? How can we just by being
(26:08):
ourselves help others, like you said, open that lid, air out
that box, maybe take some thingsout, move them around, shift
their perception of others like us and as well as we should do
with others. So the first thing is engaging
with a person, I think assessingwho that person is, what their
(26:29):
intent is, if they're being genuine, if they're being kind,
obviously those are going to be things that for you, the person
trying to be the agent of change, needs to be like, yeah,
that might be a little too dangerous, or this seems like a
perfect opportunity. Let's get into it.
You know what, maybe some other time.
I think that's important. And #1 because of what that
(26:49):
does, that protects you, the agent, to say, you know what?
I'm not here to change your mind, but I would love to.
I'm not saying that I wouldn't love to change your mind, but
it's not my job to change your mind.
There are a lot of people who are like, I'm here to plant the
flag and show the world that we are worthy.
Yes. There's like almost like an army
(27:10):
behind me. I am leading this charge.
That's not me. It would never be me.
My charge is through my voice, through this podcast, through my
writings, etcetera. So knowing where it's best to
step, I think it's super important because I have to also
protect myself. But I can be that agent and I'm
(27:32):
like, wow, this seems like a really excellent opportunity.
I may take it, I may not. Else I might be like, no, I want
to protect my peace. I want to come away with not
feeling like more burden on myself because of this
interaction. Right.
And you've gotten so much betterat setting those boundaries in
Messenger from what I know aboutyou, because you used to just
(27:52):
feel the need to teach and educate all the time and change
people's minds all the time through Messenger, even the ones
that would be inappropriate. You'd be like, this will be a
cause for a teachable moment. And I mean, it served you until
it didn't. But at the end of the day, like
you said, it's keeping that peace for ourselves and not not
(28:13):
holding the burden of 1000 different stories because we
just happened to be this advocate.
We're also living with cross dressing.
You're living with cross dressing yourself.
You might have wrote the book and you know, this Keystone was
a perfect example of this, whereyou finally have a cohort.
You finally have a group of friends.
Just through doing all these different speaking engagements
(28:36):
and putting yourself in that professional box and saying to
yourself, OK, I can't let my hair down, no pun intended.
I have to still maintain the Savannah, the Ted Talk Savannah
and the author Savannah and I, Ihave to hold postures.
And I think that through the years, you've really especially
I keep on just watching you justbe in your element in a way that
(28:57):
was like, I am a part of this community.
I'm not above it. I'm a person who also deserves
to have an experience. So stepping out of the
professional box and stepping into the box of you and your
identity is something that, you know, it really makes sense that
you were attracted to this topicbecause, you know, we're
understanding and we're growing and we're constantly looking at
(29:19):
these boxes, you and I, and trying to figure out if they
still fit. Yeah, yeah, so, and I love what
you say because you're talking about setting boundaries.
If, if somebody were to come at me in public, it questioned my
worth or question my validity asa human being, I had my rights
to be out in the world setting boundaries, being kind of
(29:40):
myself, being kind of others. If you can't be kind, well, you
can't be kind. But you should definitely set a
boundary to protect yourself. But then the one thing that
needs to be said is, I guess I would love to have a
conversation with somebody yet do I have to put my advocate hat
on? Do I have to have my whole hat
on? Do I have to do the things?
Then again, you know, that's just part of me being that
(30:03):
person. I want to lead with that because
I think it's important. I think it's a great thing who
we are and what we have to give to the world, which we do all
the time, every Wednesday or every other one, say depending
and. In our work and who we are, we
just do and. Education is great and wanting
to let people in and educate, but as I said, also at the
onset, they have to want it. They have to have an interest.
(30:26):
They have to have some synopsis in our brain that says, you know
what, I'm ready to hear something.
I might not agree with it, I want to hear it.
Yeah, and let me just backtrack a little for my statement
because it will bother me and I won't be able to finish this
whole thing. I was mainly talking about the
pervs that would just be like, you're hot and you're like, I'm
actually a person and you know what I mean?
(30:49):
Like that kind of thing where they just come at you sideways
and you'd be like, this is a moment to educate so you give
them more than they're they deserve basically.
But as a people pleaser, yeah, as a people pleaser, I'm that
way for everybody I know. Yes, I can.
I can sniff out those admirers quickly, Right?
(31:09):
And you're right. I just.
I'm fascinated by admirers and what drives them to approach
somebody in the way they do. I don't know what it is.
I'm just like I want to find. No, I am.
Why that is? No, I am.
I am too, but you and I need to still maintain our peace and I
think that in addition to the pervs, we give so much already
(31:32):
to the community. So what is ours to keep?
What is ours to cherish and whatis our choice to say?
You know what, I have these books on Amazon, you know what I
mean? Like because you have the right
to live your own cross dressing experience.
Yeah, yeah. And I unfortunately,
unfortunately got to a point where people keep asking me
questions because they want me to be the the encyclopedia for
(31:54):
their journey. I know.
I'm like, I want to help you, but there's a point where I'm
like, yeah, I did write the books.
We do have the podcast. I'm sure you can get a lot more
out of that versus just asking me a very singular isolated
question that really is not going to be rich enough in both
its asking and the response to really give you what you need to
(32:15):
go forward. So absolutely agree.
And here's a little spoiler. If you do want Savannah's
advice, by all means DM us with an with the topic idea and
suddenly we will get your full the full coverage answer to your
to your question. This was a great episode and
thank you so much for bringing it to the table well.
(32:39):
You're welcome. Yeah, it's kind of cool
recording on a different day. It changes the energy a little.
Yeah, I like it, but. Yeah.
But what is consistent is the Wednesday that we drop it,
Wednesday, Wednesday. Wednesday.
Drop it like it's hot. Drop it like it's hot.
So anywho, I was going to end with a song, but I just had a
(33:02):
perimenopausal brain fart slash ADD, so I'm not going to.
That's fine. Thank you to all of our
listeners that continue to inspire us to show up and to put
forth the best content. Thank you to everyone who has
shared our podcast and who has talked about us in therapy and
(33:24):
behind our backs. We appreciate it and all the
accolades that we get, you know,listenership and the volume and
all this exciting stuff is because of you.
And we wouldn't be where we are if it wasn't for our listeners.
So keep on keeping and. You know what, before we go, I
(33:45):
want to say, just say in these wise, wise words, thank you for
being a friend. Thank you for being a friend.
Walking down the road and backing.
Oh my God, I just yucked your Yum with my musicality.
It's all good. That way you get your
musicality. I could just say something silly
based on a show lyric, so it's all good.
(34:07):
How about winter, spring, summer, fall?
All you got to do is go to my website.
I prefer that to calling Fox andHanger and I'll be there.
Yes, I will, because you've got a friend.
And you got a friend in me. You got a friend in me.
If you want to know more, go to Amazon.com and there's three
(34:28):
living with books that you can order.
She's we so silly. Hee hee, shameless plug.
All right, Bye sweetie. Bye.
Bye for now everyone. Until next time, that was cute.
You can find me on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with
(34:51):
Cross Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK and to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hangar or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhangar.com.
(35:14):
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
Popular Podcasts
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.