June 11, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode, Julie and Savannah dig deep into the archives to read aloud a transcript that was supposed to the blogging project that they had decided to embark on. What started off as a Facebook messenger text string conversation turn website blog post did finally turn into the pivoting and pursuit of creating a more enriched podcast together. Check out our duo's more than humble beginnings!
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Hi.
Julie, how are you? Well, you see them all filled
with sasparilli today I. Am filled with sasparilli
(00:49):
because unbeknownst Leanne Abbott from Asheville and
Crystal Burroughs from North Carolina, they came into town.
Leanne brought her friend Winter, I brought my friend from
work, Emily, and we went to see Moulin Rouge.
Amazing. How was it?
(01:10):
I knew the story vaguely from Nicole Kidman and the movie, and
I knew they used a lot of modernmusic tracks.
I did not know what the musical would bring the Broadway show
would bring because it's now thetraveling and Broadway show and
you could sing almost every song.
It was like watching Glee because you know how Glee would
(01:30):
always do those mash ups? Yeah.
And this was every scene or every set piece was filled with
two to five songs. And it all ended up being mash
ups at the end of the scene. It was freaking amazing.
It was funny. The set design and the lighting.
I think this is one thing. And I and they only did it.
I was hoping they would do it more.
And they only did it once where it wasn't a strobe or like you
(01:54):
did a strobe like in a club, youstart looking choppy like a
robot. Like look at people, it stroked
out to black and then stroked right back to light again and
everybody had moved freeze to freeze in different positions.
Then it went to black and then it just something completely
different. It was so well designed.
I was captivated by the music, captivated by the characters,
(02:15):
captivated by the lighting and set design.
I was I loved it. I loved that Leanne thought to
go. I love that she invited us to
accompany her. So just amazing.
And by the time I dropped off Emily and got home, it took me
like another 90 minutes just to come down from it.
And after, say, as you can tell,I'm still jazzed up.
(02:37):
All right, first of all, can I just say I'm so happy for you
that you got experience a musical and all its glory
especially sounds like a really fun one where, you know,
audience participation was happening with the singing and
it was amazing. There's something about musical
(02:58):
theater I freaking love, but this seems like the kind of show
that it was like not so I don't know, some people who aren't
musical theatre goers think thatthe musical can be kind of corny
or or oh, there's a storyline and now they have to break into
song. Of course they do.
But it it sounds like this was avery vaguest, complete sensory
(03:20):
experience that is very different from that.
Oh, they brought the corny, you know, like when it goes center
stage and then someone's oh, what was me?
And they like go left stage. Or I mean, they it's hammy.
They hang the Roy. Yeah, they hang it.
They ham it off. They exaggerate it for the
people in the cheap seats. Yeah, it had all that.
(03:41):
But it was and some of the dialogue were music lyrics.
So even if they didn't sing the lyric, some of the narrative of
the conversation, they were bantering back and forth with
lyrics. So it was all just perfectly
symbiotic. I had a blast at a blast.
I'm so glad, and as I'm listening I'm just distracted by
(04:03):
your sheer animal print with cutout at the front.
Is that a bodysuit? It is.
It's. Black and it has the cheetah
print and it's just delightful with your streaks, the red
streaks in your hair. Well, thank you so much as yeah,
I have this little keyhole bodysuit.
It was one of the things I bought in preparation for going
(04:26):
to the show 'cause I was actually, my initial idea was to
do the Christina Aguilera Lady Marmalade look like that
burlesque with the big hair. I spent 45 minutes trying to put
these really long tendrils into my white hair, and it just
turned out into a big frizz festand nothing was holding.
(04:47):
And so I ended up going with this this wig with all the Reds
in it. And yeah, we got compliments
about the corset tree, about ourlook.
We had a great time. Amazing.
I'm so happy and I'm so glad that this creative extravaganza
gave you the oomph you needed and the pow you needed to be
(05:08):
fully dressed today in this gorgeousness that is before me.
I love that. Thank you.
Well, I just try to be like you.Oh yeah, You don't try to be
like me. If you were try to be like me,
you'd have a pimple patch right here that's so clear that you
can't even see it. It's astounding.
I actually went out in public with the pimple patch the other
(05:28):
day. It wasn't the star where I'm
just like, there's literally a, it's a Gen.
Z, Gen. Alpha kind of thing for me.
I'm just like, wow, the fact that I can wear this out in
public with all the seams a little bit unhinged, I'd be
like, this is a circle on my pimple.
You can't see it. Look.
(05:49):
I still can't say I'm looking straight at you and you're
leaning into the camera and I'm like, I trust you.
Exactly, but point being, I don't think you'd rock one of
those for all the cheese in Wisconsin.
Wait, Minnesota? Minnesota.
All the cheese in for all the cheese in Minnesota.
You betcha. You.
(06:11):
So, Miss Lady, thank you for that.
Thank you for all the accolades.Yeah, I'm just still brimming.
What? What are we doing today?
So Speaking of, what are we doing today?
You and I thought it would be really fun if we went back, way
back, back, back, back back to even before the start of the
(06:34):
podcast, even before we had the name the Fox and the Phoenix.
But right after we met on Jennifer sometimes, right?
Let's keep the audience up to date with something that some of
our old school listeners may have heard about and then we'll
get right back into what the topic is today.
OK, so back when I met you on the Free to be She podcast, we
(07:01):
definitely connected through a heart symbol and you holding up
your girlfriend Judy's little Lego collection.
And after that first meeting, wedid a movie watch party.
It was great. I sent you a professional e-mail
that was very tight and cut to AT and just said and
professional. That's the word professional
(07:22):
where I said it was so nice meeting you.
What was that? It was like, it was so nice
meeting you. Yeah, I think everyone said to
who it made concern. Oh, did did it?
No, it did not. No, you little sticker, it did
not. But it might as well have been.
It was in that area professionalism and for me, it
basically probably ended with sincerely, OK, so sincerely,
(07:45):
Julie Esquire. Now I just wanted to say that.
So basically I sent you an e-mail that you were like, oh,
this is lovely. And then you write back blah,
blah, blah. It was nice to meet you.
Something about you're an ally. Thank you.
And maybe we'll see each other again sometime or whatever.
And so I was like, Oh my God, let me just release the beast
(08:09):
where I sent that second e-mail.It was not so to the point it
had about, you know, a couple points to it basically begging
you, pleading with you in an artistic way of mania versus
semi focus to let's collab. You give a little, I give a
(08:30):
little, let's get together, let's get together.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why don't you and I come back
and let's get it's from the Parent Trap payroll nails, OK?
I was like, I'm glad you explained that was not familiar.
OK, so one of the ideas. Apparently I didn't mention
podcasts in this list. I thought I did, but apparently
(08:51):
I didn't. I'd have to go back and look.
I don't think so. OK.
Well, that's neither here nor there.
Basically, one of the ideas was to create a blog per SE.
This was us just getting to knoweach other.
Beyond these two emails, we didn't really know how we wrote
(09:11):
a writing style. For me, my writing style is very
much how I talk, or at least I thought that to be the case.
And for you similar, but we kindof figured that out through a
relationship at the start that was basically conversational
through was it through Messenger.
So it was through Messenger, butwith the intention that whatever
(09:37):
input we put in quote, dependingon how it went, would be then
transferred to a blog space question mark, question mark.
So there was like a loose intention, but just the initial
idea was a sis ally and a cross dressing individual or as you
identify and still do, a trans woman coming together and
(10:01):
discussing. So we have Plucketh from the
Hemispheres, a couple pages of this early interaction.
We actually have several pages, but we decided to bring out two
of these pages and we'd love to read through it today on air.
(10:22):
And just to give it one more pastiche of color commentary,
'cause we were texting each other a lot in those early days
of getting to know each other. And you know, just going through
all the things you do when you have a new friend and you want
to just do the thing or like, wow, we're texting you so much.
And this thing that we're doing through text, I think we could
just pivot 10° and make it into this conversational blog.
(10:46):
Obviously I'm going to give awaythe ending, which is we did not
go down this road because we're like, this is a lot of work and
we're. Talking.
Well, we're typing a lot. Yeah, we're typing a lot.
Why don't we just talk to each other via a podcast?
And you and I both know I was fairly adamant about doing a
podcast, meaning not doing a podcast because I felt nobody's
(11:08):
going to want to hear this voiceas a trans person.
And I met you and I'm like, wow,I think Julie is the perfect
foil as a feminine voice and a CIS ally to counter my
insecurities as well. It just ended up being like, Oh
yeah, that's what I needed. I needed that feminine voice to
make me feel I was speaking to the male to female cross
(11:31):
dressing community. And I felt just in my heart that
nobody's going to want to hear adeeper voice on radio, a
podcast, and having you along asthis very energetic femme voice,
I was like, well, it's going to be a nice point, counterpoint
and femme mask all working in harmony.
And so I think that once we got through all this as a trial run,
(11:56):
it just made so much more sense.Even though neither of us knew
anything about podcasting, we knew how to write and I knew how
to put stuff on a page on a website, but the podcast seems
so out of bounds. So this to see this, I haven't
even read it yet. I know you printed out the
pages. I have it up on my screen.
We have the same article, quote UN quote.
(12:16):
And so I have not read this at all.
So this will be really fun to belike, oh, that's how I said
that. That's what I was thinking back
then. No, I know.
It's really, it's like the start.
It's very exciting. You're right, we didn't know
each other. And while we're writing this,
honestly, both of us had like atleast the pages that we're
(12:37):
choosing today. For some reason, I had that
blank spot about a podcast. Like it wasn't even in my head.
I was just doing the thing. And at times I would get
frustrated because it's one of those texting things.
We're like, I just want to pick up the phone and call.
But we kind of worked through it.
I haven't necessarily read through this before.
I just skimmed it in terms of like barely skimmed it.
(13:00):
Y'all just bear with us. This could be like really, this
is really like one of those things where we're reading the
diary from 7th grade and we're just like, I don't I read some
of it. So I don't think that part about
isn't it that I'm really embarrassed about about wishing
I saw like John Flaherty naked and oh God, but so so you know,
(13:22):
just know that this has been read before.
Yes, this is. A loud This is purely an
experiment. We are reading our own words
from 2019. That's how far this goes back.
I believe this was maybe June, July of 2019.
And as we are starting to get tothat next level of
collaboration. So yeah, I'm I'm going to be
(13:45):
very curious about rereading my own words from my past self.
And also, we don't know we're not like, well, I am an actress
was I don't want to talk about it.
But basically we're going to tryto be as casual as possible in
our like reading this as a script as once would, but don't
count on it. We're going to try.
(14:07):
Yeah, just read in. OK.
OK, so I. Think I have to start?
Yes. OK, so I'm going to get it all
in alignment so I can read it out loud to you.
So, and it was funny because as I'm reading this, I titled it
with Savannah says this, and then Joey says this, and then
Savannah says this. It's very scripted.
(14:28):
So yeah. So let's take a deep breath in.
Baskets of biscuits, baskets of mixed biscuits and a biscuit
mixer. And then here's another theater
warm up. Red leather.
Yellow leather. Red leather.
Yellow leather. From the tip of the tongue to
(14:49):
the no, I don't know that one. OK, I'm resenting that this is a
table read and I've just been hired for 1.5 Mel, I think to do
this like indie film. Oh nice.
I love it I. Love it.
Just real quick before we get started, you go ahead and say,
well, we weren't even called theFox in a Phoenix yet.
It just, I don't know if anybodyknows that.
(15:09):
We may have mentioned it on there before long ago, but the
original idea was Sister Slash sister may name sister like
brother and sister and sister asin sis ally.
So it's CI Ester. Yeah, we were like, you know,
that sounds great when you you read it, maybe not as much as
when you're talking it. So we did a band in that
(15:32):
eventually. But I do love it.
Like I feel like. That is very creative.
Yeah, it's very creative. I'm trademarking that for all
the listeners, OK? Just please, it's been
trademarked, OK? Got it.
OK, here we go. OK.
OK, I'm going to be playing a part of me, and you're going to
be playing a part of you. OK.
Oh thank God. I was.
(15:53):
I was really nervous and I didn't know, but OK, cool.
It's. The obvious choice.
I hear you have a lot of thoughts about the importance of
being authentic in your life. I totally agree it is very
important to be authentic with who you are despite some of the
obstacles. It is so important.
Oh sorry, a little less that. Let me try again.
(16:17):
I'm just really nervous, but I'll be great.
It is so important. It takes working on yourself in
order to piece through the layers of projection, trauma and
fear and get to the heart sourceslash spirit of who we are as
individuals. To honor your authentic self
means living your life as you versus someone else's version of
(16:38):
what they think you should be. In order to achieve this goal,
one must transition from external judgement and self
acceptance. Oh my God, I said that.
You did. You did, and I responded.
It seems so easy, doesn't it? So easy to just accept who we
are no matter what people may think.
(16:59):
If only someone like me could find a group in society where
being a male to female cross dresser was just a normal way of
life. To find self acceptance when it
is shameful and dangerous be oneself in a society that does
not treat you as normal or equalis a steep road to travel
indeed, it has taken me years toget Savannah to a point of self
(17:19):
acceptance, probably what my male self has enjoyed all along.
There are many developmental models that put self
realization, actualization and acceptance at a point difficult
to achieve. Shelter, security,
relationships, and external validations of success and
achievement typically come before someone taps into a
(17:40):
self-assessment. While some may know and strive
for the authentic self all theirlives, some of us who have lived
through decades believing we were the only ones afflicted
with the condition of a different idea of gender
identity and presentation. As an ally, I know what a deep
Rd. this is. The right to simply exist, to
(18:00):
strive, to normalize for the sake of safety and acceptance.
My heart aches for a different reality.
And we'll get there. In our case, we need to be self
assured and give ourselves validation.
Be public and proud in order to create that reality.
Would you agree as a male crossdresser that a large part
of it is feeling confident with your feminine presentation?
(18:23):
Oh, a very good question. For many, the worry of
passability in public is a huge barrier and detriment to male
CDs going out. Much of the worry stems from the
fear that being unable to blend in quote UN quote will lead to
stares, angry and judgmental words, or a worst physical
attack. I was definitely one who at one
(18:45):
time lacked enough confidence tobe seen before nightfall.
The cover of darkness allowed meto believe that I would be more
passable, more forgettable, safer.
In my mind, I will never be as passable those cross dressing
men who have slight thin frames or the perfect high cheekbones
and natural hair. I will always have broad
(19:06):
shoulders, weigh more than 130 lbs, and speak in my normal male
voice, which is by choice. What I've learned over the years
is that learning the art of makeup, the redefinition of body
shape with foundation garments and padding, and sensible
fashion style has elevated me toa public persona and
presentation art form. By the confidence, grace,
(19:27):
civility, kindness and personality own body and radiate
out to others around you. Beautifully sad.
Wait, can I take that line over beautifully sad exclamation
point? So much of the so much of the
work I do focuses on male to female presentation.
(19:48):
I become a den mother quote to many of the people I work with.
Getting to know them on a personal level and helping them
with everything from finding theright clothes, teaching them
about the importance of shapewear and giving them step
by step style advice. I noticed that this support is
needed because not everyone has people in their lives who will
(20:09):
show them what clothing cuts look good on them, how to apply
makeup and help them find their authentic style as it reflects
the woman that lives inside. My experience as a wardrobe
stylist has taught me that dressing for your body and find
your authentic style is something that most people need
help with. But for male crossdressers and
transgender women I have worked with, this help is more than
(20:33):
just a need. It's an answered prayer that
will help create your experienceas a woman.
And helping a male to female cross dresser find their style,
their fashion, their voiced authenticity is so critical.
Having a support system, whetheryou as a consultant in service,
a supportive partner or meet up group of like minded individuals
(20:54):
helps many cross dressers to overcome their own fears, doubt
and shame in order to pave a pathway to greater self
acceptance and authenticity. Many cross dressers
unfortunately, are still mired in those aforementioned negative
emotions, believing they are alone and the only ones
afflicted quote UN quote with this curse of needing to dress
(21:15):
in feminine attire. Is only western culture and
current American Society creating the stigma around males
who dress more effeminately or with a fully feminized
presentation and part time gender identity?
Once with deep self reflection or with outside validation from
our supporters and allies, the quest for the crossdresser to
(21:37):
find and release their feminine spirits will become easier and
offer a sense of peace, calm andunderstanding of self.
What the hesitant cross dressingmale needs to realize is whether
they dress as a sexual enhancement at home covertly
under their male clothes at work, or out in public as their
feminine personas once a week. Therein lies an authenticity in
(22:00):
accepting, embracing and celebrating that side of
ourselves as someone amazing. We are all unique individuals,
but many of us share in the ideaof gender duality.
While we all have our specific lives to live and unique
personal experiences, just remember that many of us have
experienced similar things, feltthe same emotions, and have felt
(22:23):
that we were the only crossroadser in the world.
And sing. I loved it.
Take a bow, Take a bow. It's so interesting because I
think you printed out all the pages that we had to work with,
and several of the pages were inchunks of different
(22:46):
conversations we've had. I believe, correct me if I'm
wrong, but I believe that this was the last one.
I think it was, yeah. This was, in fact, the last one
we did. The last one we did.
So for me, there's a lot of foreshadowing here because it
would make so much sense for at the end of this typing, you or
(23:07):
me or both of us would look to each other over typing.
So we wouldn't actually look to each other.
But just based on these last couple lines, it would make
sense that this was the last one.
And then one of us or both of ussaid, let's just do a podcast or
let's just, I don't know, do youremember how it went?
But like this to me is like a giant way to end and then
(23:30):
something else to begin. This is this last couple of
stanzas here, these last couple paragraphs.
I feel like these were in our original tenants when we created
the outline of what is our purpose for the podcast.
I'll say two things. One, as I'm trying to reread my
own work, I'm like, that sentence doesn't even look
right. What am I saying here?
(23:50):
I think there's some problems here.
And I'm like, I kept stopping and starting.
There's words missing. So that's number one, that was
on me. That's the first thing I
realized when I was reading through it.
Secondly, you and I as writers reading through this again, it's
like, wow, that's a powerful messaging right there.
And I think that we became so worried about the perfectionism
of like the things we are writing back and forth to
(24:11):
because this is just the final output.
This is not all the effort and time we each put into writing
the response. And Oh no, let me delete that.
Let me start again. So there was something about
that where it almost seemed too polished.
It was like, Oh no, no, we got to say the perfect thing because
this is going to go on a page and live as text forever.
So to your point, I think we both realized why we really are
(24:35):
saying some very meaningful things and we want people to
hear it. And I think with what I just
said is I you think where the turn happened, where we're like,
we want people to hear it, not have to read.
It and we know you're not alone and why are you and I alone on
this text message box? And also to your point and to
(24:56):
your ignorance around how much work it is to actually put on a
podcast. I recall very clearly that
you're because either way, you and I as writers came to the
table with there's a certain structure, got the first draft,
the second draft. So in your mind, you thought,
and we both thought that it would be whole hell of a lot
(25:16):
easier to just voice it then go through and edit every fucking
sentence because that would takeforever.
And that was that was extra. I remember this.
That was extra work that you just didn't want to do.
It was just too much work. Oh, irony.
But. I still hold fast to also the
other part, which is nobody's going to read this.
(25:38):
They're going to read it. And even if it's perfectly,
everything's grammatically correct and it's amazing
writing, nobody's going to come to the website and be like, oh,
let me read the new blog from soand so.
And trust me, I'm not saying that people don't read blogs.
I know that there's lots of organizations out there that do
blog posts all the time and it is important.
(25:59):
But for you and me, I think thatwe realize, and I don't want to
say presumptuously, I think we realize that people would want
to hear the words from US versusjust reading it on the page.
Totally. Yeah, that was another key
elements for me as I was listening to this.
A lot of it was very much accurate in alignment with the
(26:23):
person I am today. But the truth of the matter is
in 2019, even in 2019, for me itwas never about the clothes, it
was about having a heart centered connection with
individuals. So when I read the dead mother
part, I become a dead mother to many of the people I work with.
Getting to know them on a personal level and helping them
(26:45):
from everything from finding theright clothes, teaching them
about the importance of shapewear and giving them step
by step style advice. OK.
But getting to know the person on a personal level and
coaching, there's a little bit of therapy aspect, but only
because I've been in therapy. I'm not certified, but it's so
(27:06):
much more than the clothes at this point.
It's so much more than the lookbooks even.
There is a portion to the work that I do that you get the look
books, and the look books are very much medicine, very much
saving. But there was this femininity
piece, this consulting piece that I was not ready for.
(27:30):
I didn't have the experience of.I didn't have the years and
years of doing this to cultivatethis role as a femininity
consultant or coach in addition to the style piece.
So I thought that was very interesting, just reading that
about me. That was the one part where I
felt I was putting on the pants that were two sizes too small as
(27:51):
a kid. And you're just like, yeah,
you've outgrown this. It was too simplistic and also
the way my understanding for cross dressers and the cross
dressing experience was so limited to my understanding with
it having some sort of charge tothe dressing, right?
And when we met on Jennifer sometimes previously very close
(28:14):
to when all this was written wasmy very first invitation to the
idea and the concept and the early clients around this time
for the look books, there are straight male heterosexual
crossdressers that also have this feminine side to themselves
that they want to express, not because it's overly sexualized,
(28:37):
but because it's a part of who they are.
I didn't understand that. It's how they relax.
There's a part of their brain that this is as true as the male
side. All those concepts hadn't really
integrated into this knowingnessand understanding that I have
now. Obviously it's been so many
years. I was very much learning about
(29:00):
things outside cuts and step by step and shapewear and that
feels really nice to read. Read a part of yourself that has
grown so much. So that's also another take away
from this episode is that I'm able to be like, wow, I've done
a lot of growth in terms of my support with the community.
Yeah. And for me, I recognize it's
(29:22):
like, wow, this, I'm just finished by second book because
a lot of the things in our correspondents, the
self-assessment, you know, if you don't have shelter, security
and safety, you could struggle to find yourself in the world
was coming down here to South Carolina.
So the fear aspect that I was dealing with was a blast at the
(29:44):
time. So yeah, as I'm reading, I'm
like recognizing where I was in my own development.
Wow. Yeah.
That's was very relevant to me in those moments.
The Maslow's pyramid and self actualization and being fearful
of what it was like to be in theworld is our authentic self.
And I don't even know if I talked about authenticity much
(30:05):
prior to that. Maybe in the first book I did a
little, but I don't know if I felt authenticity.
I don't know if I felt like, oh,I'm not being authentic to
myself because I'm hiding away. I didn't want to hideaway.
I wanted to be more accepted. But the idea of being authentic,
what's a really, I think a word that was in my Canon at the
(30:28):
time. And so that reading back was
like, Oh yeah, I was really hitting that stride of trying to
be true, not just this is a parttime thing for me.
You know, this is my authenticity, this is my truth
of who I am as a gender expansive individual.
And to read the words in the moment was that time capsule of
knowledge. Like I just opened up the six
(30:49):
years ago brain of Savannah to see what she was thinking.
Yeah, like you said, knowing where you were in that moment
and knowing where I was in that moment, it's really crazy to to
actually go back and read it. It's really precious.
And even authenticity is something that back then I
thought, oh, when a genderqueer individual or a crossdresser
(31:11):
talks about their authentic self, that must mean the way
it's being said to me, expressedto me.
And what I'm getting internally when the person says that is
that they have this authentic self, the feminine side that
wishes it could get out more butthey just can't because whatever
reason, children, spouse, livingsituation, whatever it is, but
(31:32):
everything else in their male side is just not authentic right
now. I see it in much different life
now. I see it as my authentic truth
is that I am part male, part woman.
I am one whole entity of a person and that is my
authenticity. Whether the person is believing
(31:53):
the first part that I said when I hear someone say that I hear
their authenticity as it is fullhuman right.
I'm not speaking to their story.They're not speaking to my
story, but I just finally find my way to meet them where
they're at in what they're talking about.
(32:14):
But I'm not just being like, oh,they're authentic self can't
shine or this is who you know, you and your she is really when
if you're able to be your authentic self, I think that
gets very, very confusing. And I think that's very
seductive to many people. And I think many of our
listeners are under similar understanding when we talk about
(32:34):
authenticity that I used to havealso the word authentic, being
authentic. There's a lot of hype around the
fact that being authentically you comes with this freer
version of you, comes with this happier, freer, more completely
exposed version of yourself. That, to me, as understanding
(32:57):
what the word truly means, isn'tso much in alignment with that.
That's a glorified version. My authentic self is a glorified
version, and then you get into glorified and then you get into
fantasy and then you get into the persona and this pressure of
wow, if I could just be this person, this female version of
myself full time, that's where happiness lives.
(33:19):
That's where my authenticity lives.
So I don't want to give away toomuch about that and rob us all
of a complete episode fan, fan fucking tastic.
But I do think, you know, looking back at these notes,
there's several themes and topics we can use as topics.
(33:40):
You know, there's several themesthat we can say, wow, now that
we've exposed the rawness of theraw.
And thank you, dear listeners, for being a part of this episode
because it really, it could be alittle nerve wracking sharing
your newness. You know, we, we present to you
all in a certain way. And I would like to say that
even our first episode we had, that ended up being my favorite
(34:03):
episode and ended up shocking the shit out of both of us when
some of your friends that were the early listeners were like,
no, that sounds professional, That sounds amazing, that sounds
clean. Because somewhere in that very
first episode, you had referenced the fact that like a
12 year old boy may be useful right now to help us know what
the Hell's going on. Because we've never done this.
(34:25):
Oh my God damn. You know, that kind of thing.
This was great. This was a great day for us and
we really hope you enjoyed beingin on some of our earlier some
of the earlier times before the podcast.
Well, we were just fledglings, little babies in the history.
Little seed things before we knew sometimes you have to take
(34:49):
a million different pathways before seeing, like the obvious
pathway that is just in your face.
And it was like blinding us withits obviousness, but we were
just like in it in this weird way.
It was a journey and it ended and it led to something else.
And that's beautiful and awesomeand very much a part of our
(35:11):
story. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, sweetie. Yeah, and I'm actually, by the
way, I'm writing down that idea they had for a whole other
podcast episode, so we don't forget it.
Authenticity. Yeah.
Like where does it live? When does it become glorified?
When is it actually the idea of authenticity versus the
(35:31):
authenticity of authenticity? Wow.
And don't write a book on that. Let's just do an episode and see
where it goes. Listen, we always could do an
episode that can lead to me writing a book.
About oh, sorry to pressure you and manipulate the search.
Oh, hey everyone. We haven't done the outro yet,
(35:52):
but we're glad you're here and we welcome you with open arms.
Please, please, please continue to share our episodes.
We have a bunch of them. How many do we have?
You told me at the top of the episode.
Well, this. Will be 221.
Wow, wow, wow, wow wow. OK so we love you so much
(36:17):
TuneIn. Every Wednesday for a new
episode and bye for now. Until next time, you can find me
on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing
and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK and to learn more, go to my website
(36:38):
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hangar or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhangar.com.
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
(37:03):
Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Hi.
Julie, how are you? Well, you see them all filled
with sasparilli today I. Am filled with sasparilli
(00:49):
because unbeknownst Leanne Abbott from Asheville and
Crystal Burroughs from North Carolina, they came into town.
Leanne brought her friend Winter, I brought my friend from
work, Emily, and we went to see Moulin Rouge.
Amazing. How was it?
(01:10):
I knew the story vaguely from Nicole Kidman and the movie, and
I knew they used a lot of modernmusic tracks.
I did not know what the musical would bring the Broadway show
would bring because it's now thetraveling and Broadway show and
you could sing almost every song.
It was like watching Glee because you know how Glee would
(01:30):
always do those mash ups? Yeah.
And this was every scene or every set piece was filled with
two to five songs. And it all ended up being mash
ups at the end of the scene. It was freaking amazing.
It was funny. The set design and the lighting.
I think this is one thing. And I and they only did it.
I was hoping they would do it more.
And they only did it once where it wasn't a strobe or like you
(01:54):
did a strobe like in a club, youstart looking choppy like a
robot. Like look at people, it stroked
out to black and then stroked right back to light again and
everybody had moved freeze to freeze in different positions.
Then it went to black and then it just something completely
different. It was so well designed.
I was captivated by the music, captivated by the characters,
(02:15):
captivated by the lighting and set design.
I was I loved it. I loved that Leanne thought to
go. I love that she invited us to
accompany her. So just amazing.
And by the time I dropped off Emily and got home, it took me
like another 90 minutes just to come down from it.
And after, say, as you can tell,I'm still jazzed up.
(02:37):
All right, first of all, can I just say I'm so happy for you
that you got experience a musical and all its glory
especially sounds like a really fun one where, you know,
audience participation was happening with the singing and
it was amazing. There's something about musical
(02:58):
theater I freaking love, but this seems like the kind of show
that it was like not so I don't know, some people who aren't
musical theatre goers think thatthe musical can be kind of corny
or or oh, there's a storyline and now they have to break into
song. Of course they do.
But it it sounds like this was avery vaguest, complete sensory
(03:20):
experience that is very different from that.
Oh, they brought the corny, you know, like when it goes center
stage and then someone's oh, what was me?
And they like go left stage. Or I mean, they it's hammy.
They hang the Roy. Yeah, they hang it.
They ham it off. They exaggerate it for the
people in the cheap seats. Yeah, it had all that.
(03:41):
But it was and some of the dialogue were music lyrics.
So even if they didn't sing the lyric, some of the narrative of
the conversation, they were bantering back and forth with
lyrics. So it was all just perfectly
symbiotic. I had a blast at a blast.
I'm so glad, and as I'm listening I'm just distracted by
(04:03):
your sheer animal print with cutout at the front.
Is that a bodysuit? It is.
It's. Black and it has the cheetah
print and it's just delightful with your streaks, the red
streaks in your hair. Well, thank you so much as yeah,
I have this little keyhole bodysuit.
It was one of the things I bought in preparation for going
(04:26):
to the show 'cause I was actually, my initial idea was to
do the Christina Aguilera Lady Marmalade look like that
burlesque with the big hair. I spent 45 minutes trying to put
these really long tendrils into my white hair, and it just
turned out into a big frizz festand nothing was holding.
(04:47):
And so I ended up going with this this wig with all the Reds
in it. And yeah, we got compliments
about the corset tree, about ourlook.
We had a great time. Amazing.
I'm so happy and I'm so glad that this creative extravaganza
gave you the oomph you needed and the pow you needed to be
(05:08):
fully dressed today in this gorgeousness that is before me.
I love that. Thank you.
Well, I just try to be like you.Oh yeah, You don't try to be
like me. If you were try to be like me,
you'd have a pimple patch right here that's so clear that you
can't even see it. It's astounding.
I actually went out in public with the pimple patch the other
(05:28):
day. It wasn't the star where I'm
just like, there's literally a, it's a Gen.
Z, Gen. Alpha kind of thing for me.
I'm just like, wow, the fact that I can wear this out in
public with all the seams a little bit unhinged, I'd be
like, this is a circle on my pimple.
You can't see it. Look.
(05:49):
I still can't say I'm looking straight at you and you're
leaning into the camera and I'm like, I trust you.
Exactly, but point being, I don't think you'd rock one of
those for all the cheese in Wisconsin.
Wait, Minnesota? Minnesota.
All the cheese in for all the cheese in Minnesota.
You betcha. You.
(06:11):
So, Miss Lady, thank you for that.
Thank you for all the accolades.Yeah, I'm just still brimming.
What? What are we doing today?
So Speaking of, what are we doing today?
You and I thought it would be really fun if we went back, way
back, back, back, back back to even before the start of the
(06:34):
podcast, even before we had the name the Fox and the Phoenix.
But right after we met on Jennifer sometimes, right?
Let's keep the audience up to date with something that some of
our old school listeners may have heard about and then we'll
get right back into what the topic is today.
OK, so back when I met you on the Free to be She podcast, we
(07:01):
definitely connected through a heart symbol and you holding up
your girlfriend Judy's little Lego collection.
And after that first meeting, wedid a movie watch party.
It was great. I sent you a professional e-mail
that was very tight and cut to AT and just said and
professional. That's the word professional
(07:22):
where I said it was so nice meeting you.
What was that? It was like, it was so nice
meeting you. Yeah, I think everyone said to
who it made concern. Oh, did did it?
No, it did not. No, you little sticker, it did
not. But it might as well have been.
It was in that area professionalism and for me, it
basically probably ended with sincerely, OK, so sincerely,
(07:45):
Julie Esquire. Now I just wanted to say that.
So basically I sent you an e-mail that you were like, oh,
this is lovely. And then you write back blah,
blah, blah. It was nice to meet you.
Something about you're an ally. Thank you.
And maybe we'll see each other again sometime or whatever.
And so I was like, Oh my God, let me just release the beast
(08:09):
where I sent that second e-mail.It was not so to the point it
had about, you know, a couple points to it basically begging
you, pleading with you in an artistic way of mania versus
semi focus to let's collab. You give a little, I give a
(08:30):
little, let's get together, let's get together.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why don't you and I come back
and let's get it's from the Parent Trap payroll nails, OK?
I was like, I'm glad you explained that was not familiar.
OK, so one of the ideas. Apparently I didn't mention
podcasts in this list. I thought I did, but apparently
(08:51):
I didn't. I'd have to go back and look.
I don't think so. OK.
Well, that's neither here nor there.
Basically, one of the ideas was to create a blog per SE.
This was us just getting to knoweach other.
Beyond these two emails, we didn't really know how we wrote
(09:11):
a writing style. For me, my writing style is very
much how I talk, or at least I thought that to be the case.
And for you similar, but we kindof figured that out through a
relationship at the start that was basically conversational
through was it through Messenger.
So it was through Messenger, butwith the intention that whatever
(09:37):
input we put in quote, dependingon how it went, would be then
transferred to a blog space question mark, question mark.
So there was like a loose intention, but just the initial
idea was a sis ally and a cross dressing individual or as you
identify and still do, a trans woman coming together and
(10:01):
discussing. So we have Plucketh from the
Hemispheres, a couple pages of this early interaction.
We actually have several pages, but we decided to bring out two
of these pages and we'd love to read through it today on air.
(10:22):
And just to give it one more pastiche of color commentary,
'cause we were texting each other a lot in those early days
of getting to know each other. And you know, just going through
all the things you do when you have a new friend and you want
to just do the thing or like, wow, we're texting you so much.
And this thing that we're doing through text, I think we could
just pivot 10° and make it into this conversational blog.
(10:46):
Obviously I'm going to give awaythe ending, which is we did not
go down this road because we're like, this is a lot of work and
we're. Talking.
Well, we're typing a lot. Yeah, we're typing a lot.
Why don't we just talk to each other via a podcast?
And you and I both know I was fairly adamant about doing a
podcast, meaning not doing a podcast because I felt nobody's
(11:08):
going to want to hear this voiceas a trans person.
And I met you and I'm like, wow,I think Julie is the perfect
foil as a feminine voice and a CIS ally to counter my
insecurities as well. It just ended up being like, Oh
yeah, that's what I needed. I needed that feminine voice to
make me feel I was speaking to the male to female cross
(11:31):
dressing community. And I felt just in my heart that
nobody's going to want to hear adeeper voice on radio, a
podcast, and having you along asthis very energetic femme voice,
I was like, well, it's going to be a nice point, counterpoint
and femme mask all working in harmony.
And so I think that once we got through all this as a trial run,
(11:56):
it just made so much more sense.Even though neither of us knew
anything about podcasting, we knew how to write and I knew how
to put stuff on a page on a website, but the podcast seems
so out of bounds. So this to see this, I haven't
even read it yet. I know you printed out the
pages. I have it up on my screen.
We have the same article, quote UN quote.
(12:16):
And so I have not read this at all.
So this will be really fun to belike, oh, that's how I said
that. That's what I was thinking back
then. No, I know.
It's really, it's like the start.
It's very exciting. You're right, we didn't know
each other. And while we're writing this,
honestly, both of us had like atleast the pages that we're
(12:37):
choosing today. For some reason, I had that
blank spot about a podcast. Like it wasn't even in my head.
I was just doing the thing. And at times I would get
frustrated because it's one of those texting things.
We're like, I just want to pick up the phone and call.
But we kind of worked through it.
I haven't necessarily read through this before.
I just skimmed it in terms of like barely skimmed it.
(13:00):
Y'all just bear with us. This could be like really, this
is really like one of those things where we're reading the
diary from 7th grade and we're just like, I don't I read some
of it. So I don't think that part about
isn't it that I'm really embarrassed about about wishing
I saw like John Flaherty naked and oh God, but so so you know,
(13:22):
just know that this has been read before.
Yes, this is. A loud This is purely an
experiment. We are reading our own words
from 2019. That's how far this goes back.
I believe this was maybe June, July of 2019.
And as we are starting to get tothat next level of
collaboration. So yeah, I'm I'm going to be
(13:45):
very curious about rereading my own words from my past self.
And also, we don't know we're not like, well, I am an actress
was I don't want to talk about it.
But basically we're going to tryto be as casual as possible in
our like reading this as a script as once would, but don't
count on it. We're going to try.
(14:07):
Yeah, just read in. OK.
OK, so I. Think I have to start?
Yes. OK, so I'm going to get it all
in alignment so I can read it out loud to you.
So, and it was funny because as I'm reading this, I titled it
with Savannah says this, and then Joey says this, and then
Savannah says this. It's very scripted.
(14:28):
So yeah. So let's take a deep breath in.
Baskets of biscuits, baskets of mixed biscuits and a biscuit
mixer. And then here's another theater
warm up. Red leather.
Yellow leather. Red leather.
Yellow leather. From the tip of the tongue to
(14:49):
the no, I don't know that one. OK, I'm resenting that this is a
table read and I've just been hired for 1.5 Mel, I think to do
this like indie film. Oh nice.
I love it I. Love it.
Just real quick before we get started, you go ahead and say,
well, we weren't even called theFox in a Phoenix yet.
It just, I don't know if anybodyknows that.
(15:09):
We may have mentioned it on there before long ago, but the
original idea was Sister Slash sister may name sister like
brother and sister and sister asin sis ally.
So it's CI Ester. Yeah, we were like, you know,
that sounds great when you you read it, maybe not as much as
when you're talking it. So we did a band in that
(15:32):
eventually. But I do love it.
Like I feel like. That is very creative.
Yeah, it's very creative. I'm trademarking that for all
the listeners, OK? Just please, it's been
trademarked, OK? Got it.
OK, here we go. OK.
OK, I'm going to be playing a part of me, and you're going to
be playing a part of you. OK.
Oh thank God. I was.
(15:53):
I was really nervous and I didn't know, but OK, cool.
It's. The obvious choice.
I hear you have a lot of thoughts about the importance of
being authentic in your life. I totally agree it is very
important to be authentic with who you are despite some of the
obstacles. It is so important.
Oh sorry, a little less that. Let me try again.
(16:17):
I'm just really nervous, but I'll be great.
It is so important. It takes working on yourself in
order to piece through the layers of projection, trauma and
fear and get to the heart sourceslash spirit of who we are as
individuals. To honor your authentic self
means living your life as you versus someone else's version of
(16:38):
what they think you should be. In order to achieve this goal,
one must transition from external judgement and self
acceptance. Oh my God, I said that.
You did. You did, and I responded.
It seems so easy, doesn't it? So easy to just accept who we
are no matter what people may think.
(16:59):
If only someone like me could find a group in society where
being a male to female cross dresser was just a normal way of
life. To find self acceptance when it
is shameful and dangerous be oneself in a society that does
not treat you as normal or equalis a steep road to travel
indeed, it has taken me years toget Savannah to a point of self
(17:19):
acceptance, probably what my male self has enjoyed all along.
There are many developmental models that put self
realization, actualization and acceptance at a point difficult
to achieve. Shelter, security,
relationships, and external validations of success and
achievement typically come before someone taps into a
(17:40):
self-assessment. While some may know and strive
for the authentic self all theirlives, some of us who have lived
through decades believing we were the only ones afflicted
with the condition of a different idea of gender
identity and presentation. As an ally, I know what a deep
Rd. this is. The right to simply exist, to
(18:00):
strive, to normalize for the sake of safety and acceptance.
My heart aches for a different reality.
And we'll get there. In our case, we need to be self
assured and give ourselves validation.
Be public and proud in order to create that reality.
Would you agree as a male crossdresser that a large part
of it is feeling confident with your feminine presentation?
(18:23):
Oh, a very good question. For many, the worry of
passability in public is a huge barrier and detriment to male
CDs going out. Much of the worry stems from the
fear that being unable to blend in quote UN quote will lead to
stares, angry and judgmental words, or a worst physical
attack. I was definitely one who at one
(18:45):
time lacked enough confidence tobe seen before nightfall.
The cover of darkness allowed meto believe that I would be more
passable, more forgettable, safer.
In my mind, I will never be as passable those cross dressing
men who have slight thin frames or the perfect high cheekbones
and natural hair. I will always have broad
(19:06):
shoulders, weigh more than 130 lbs, and speak in my normal male
voice, which is by choice. What I've learned over the years
is that learning the art of makeup, the redefinition of body
shape with foundation garments and padding, and sensible
fashion style has elevated me toa public persona and
presentation art form. By the confidence, grace,
(19:27):
civility, kindness and personality own body and radiate
out to others around you. Beautifully sad.
Wait, can I take that line over beautifully sad exclamation
point? So much of the so much of the
work I do focuses on male to female presentation.
(19:48):
I become a den mother quote to many of the people I work with.
Getting to know them on a personal level and helping them
with everything from finding theright clothes, teaching them
about the importance of shapewear and giving them step
by step style advice. I noticed that this support is
needed because not everyone has people in their lives who will
(20:09):
show them what clothing cuts look good on them, how to apply
makeup and help them find their authentic style as it reflects
the woman that lives inside. My experience as a wardrobe
stylist has taught me that dressing for your body and find
your authentic style is something that most people need
help with. But for male crossdressers and
transgender women I have worked with, this help is more than
(20:33):
just a need. It's an answered prayer that
will help create your experienceas a woman.
And helping a male to female cross dresser find their style,
their fashion, their voiced authenticity is so critical.
Having a support system, whetheryou as a consultant in service,
a supportive partner or meet up group of like minded individuals
(20:54):
helps many cross dressers to overcome their own fears, doubt
and shame in order to pave a pathway to greater self
acceptance and authenticity. Many cross dressers
unfortunately, are still mired in those aforementioned negative
emotions, believing they are alone and the only ones
afflicted quote UN quote with this curse of needing to dress
(21:15):
in feminine attire. Is only western culture and
current American Society creating the stigma around males
who dress more effeminately or with a fully feminized
presentation and part time gender identity?
Once with deep self reflection or with outside validation from
our supporters and allies, the quest for the crossdresser to
(21:37):
find and release their feminine spirits will become easier and
offer a sense of peace, calm andunderstanding of self.
What the hesitant cross dressingmale needs to realize is whether
they dress as a sexual enhancement at home covertly
under their male clothes at work, or out in public as their
feminine personas once a week. Therein lies an authenticity in
(22:00):
accepting, embracing and celebrating that side of
ourselves as someone amazing. We are all unique individuals,
but many of us share in the ideaof gender duality.
While we all have our specific lives to live and unique
personal experiences, just remember that many of us have
experienced similar things, feltthe same emotions, and have felt
(22:23):
that we were the only crossroadser in the world.
And sing. I loved it.
Take a bow, Take a bow. It's so interesting because I
think you printed out all the pages that we had to work with,
and several of the pages were inchunks of different
(22:46):
conversations we've had. I believe, correct me if I'm
wrong, but I believe that this was the last one.
I think it was, yeah. This was, in fact, the last one
we did. The last one we did.
So for me, there's a lot of foreshadowing here because it
would make so much sense for at the end of this typing, you or
(23:07):
me or both of us would look to each other over typing.
So we wouldn't actually look to each other.
But just based on these last couple lines, it would make
sense that this was the last one.
And then one of us or both of ussaid, let's just do a podcast or
let's just, I don't know, do youremember how it went?
But like this to me is like a giant way to end and then
(23:30):
something else to begin. This is this last couple of
stanzas here, these last couple paragraphs.
I feel like these were in our original tenants when we created
the outline of what is our purpose for the podcast.
I'll say two things. One, as I'm trying to reread my
own work, I'm like, that sentence doesn't even look
right. What am I saying here?
(23:50):
I think there's some problems here.
And I'm like, I kept stopping and starting.
There's words missing. So that's number one, that was
on me. That's the first thing I
realized when I was reading through it.
Secondly, you and I as writers reading through this again, it's
like, wow, that's a powerful messaging right there.
And I think that we became so worried about the perfectionism
of like the things we are writing back and forth to
(24:11):
because this is just the final output.
This is not all the effort and time we each put into writing
the response. And Oh no, let me delete that.
Let me start again. So there was something about
that where it almost seemed too polished.
It was like, Oh no, no, we got to say the perfect thing because
this is going to go on a page and live as text forever.
So to your point, I think we both realized why we really are
(24:35):
saying some very meaningful things and we want people to
hear it. And I think with what I just
said is I you think where the turn happened, where we're like,
we want people to hear it, not have to read.
It and we know you're not alone and why are you and I alone on
this text message box? And also to your point and to
(24:56):
your ignorance around how much work it is to actually put on a
podcast. I recall very clearly that
you're because either way, you and I as writers came to the
table with there's a certain structure, got the first draft,
the second draft. So in your mind, you thought,
and we both thought that it would be whole hell of a lot
(25:16):
easier to just voice it then go through and edit every fucking
sentence because that would takeforever.
And that was that was extra. I remember this.
That was extra work that you just didn't want to do.
It was just too much work. Oh, irony.
But. I still hold fast to also the
other part, which is nobody's going to read this.
(25:38):
They're going to read it. And even if it's perfectly,
everything's grammatically correct and it's amazing
writing, nobody's going to come to the website and be like, oh,
let me read the new blog from soand so.
And trust me, I'm not saying that people don't read blogs.
I know that there's lots of organizations out there that do
blog posts all the time and it is important.
(25:59):
But for you and me, I think thatwe realize, and I don't want to
say presumptuously, I think we realize that people would want
to hear the words from US versusjust reading it on the page.
Totally. Yeah, that was another key
elements for me as I was listening to this.
A lot of it was very much accurate in alignment with the
(26:23):
person I am today. But the truth of the matter is
in 2019, even in 2019, for me itwas never about the clothes, it
was about having a heart centered connection with
individuals. So when I read the dead mother
part, I become a dead mother to many of the people I work with.
Getting to know them on a personal level and helping them
(26:45):
from everything from finding theright clothes, teaching them
about the importance of shapewear and giving them step
by step style advice. OK.
But getting to know the person on a personal level and
coaching, there's a little bit of therapy aspect, but only
because I've been in therapy. I'm not certified, but it's so
(27:06):
much more than the clothes at this point.
It's so much more than the lookbooks even.
There is a portion to the work that I do that you get the look
books, and the look books are very much medicine, very much
saving. But there was this femininity
piece, this consulting piece that I was not ready for.
(27:30):
I didn't have the experience of.I didn't have the years and
years of doing this to cultivatethis role as a femininity
consultant or coach in addition to the style piece.
So I thought that was very interesting, just reading that
about me. That was the one part where I
felt I was putting on the pants that were two sizes too small as
(27:51):
a kid. And you're just like, yeah,
you've outgrown this. It was too simplistic and also
the way my understanding for cross dressers and the cross
dressing experience was so limited to my understanding with
it having some sort of charge tothe dressing, right?
And when we met on Jennifer sometimes previously very close
(28:14):
to when all this was written wasmy very first invitation to the
idea and the concept and the early clients around this time
for the look books, there are straight male heterosexual
crossdressers that also have this feminine side to themselves
that they want to express, not because it's overly sexualized,
(28:37):
but because it's a part of who they are.
I didn't understand that. It's how they relax.
There's a part of their brain that this is as true as the male
side. All those concepts hadn't really
integrated into this knowingnessand understanding that I have
now. Obviously it's been so many
years. I was very much learning about
(29:00):
things outside cuts and step by step and shapewear and that
feels really nice to read. Read a part of yourself that has
grown so much. So that's also another take away
from this episode is that I'm able to be like, wow, I've done
a lot of growth in terms of my support with the community.
Yeah. And for me, I recognize it's
(29:22):
like, wow, this, I'm just finished by second book because
a lot of the things in our correspondents, the
self-assessment, you know, if you don't have shelter, security
and safety, you could struggle to find yourself in the world
was coming down here to South Carolina.
So the fear aspect that I was dealing with was a blast at the
(29:44):
time. So yeah, as I'm reading, I'm
like recognizing where I was in my own development.
Wow. Yeah.
That's was very relevant to me in those moments.
The Maslow's pyramid and self actualization and being fearful
of what it was like to be in theworld is our authentic self.
And I don't even know if I talked about authenticity much
(30:05):
prior to that. Maybe in the first book I did a
little, but I don't know if I felt authenticity.
I don't know if I felt like, oh,I'm not being authentic to
myself because I'm hiding away. I didn't want to hideaway.
I wanted to be more accepted. But the idea of being authentic,
what's a really, I think a word that was in my Canon at the
(30:28):
time. And so that reading back was
like, Oh yeah, I was really hitting that stride of trying to
be true, not just this is a parttime thing for me.
You know, this is my authenticity, this is my truth
of who I am as a gender expansive individual.
And to read the words in the moment was that time capsule of
knowledge. Like I just opened up the six
(30:49):
years ago brain of Savannah to see what she was thinking.
Yeah, like you said, knowing where you were in that moment
and knowing where I was in that moment, it's really crazy to to
actually go back and read it. It's really precious.
And even authenticity is something that back then I
thought, oh, when a genderqueer individual or a crossdresser
(31:11):
talks about their authentic self, that must mean the way
it's being said to me, expressedto me.
And what I'm getting internally when the person says that is
that they have this authentic self, the feminine side that
wishes it could get out more butthey just can't because whatever
reason, children, spouse, livingsituation, whatever it is, but
(31:32):
everything else in their male side is just not authentic right
now. I see it in much different life
now. I see it as my authentic truth
is that I am part male, part woman.
I am one whole entity of a person and that is my
authenticity. Whether the person is believing
(31:53):
the first part that I said when I hear someone say that I hear
their authenticity as it is fullhuman right.
I'm not speaking to their story.They're not speaking to my
story, but I just finally find my way to meet them where
they're at in what they're talking about.
(32:14):
But I'm not just being like, oh,they're authentic self can't
shine or this is who you know, you and your she is really when
if you're able to be your authentic self, I think that
gets very, very confusing. And I think that's very
seductive to many people. And I think many of our
listeners are under similar understanding when we talk about
(32:34):
authenticity that I used to havealso the word authentic, being
authentic. There's a lot of hype around the
fact that being authentically you comes with this freer
version of you, comes with this happier, freer, more completely
exposed version of yourself. That, to me, as understanding
(32:57):
what the word truly means, isn'tso much in alignment with that.
That's a glorified version. My authentic self is a glorified
version, and then you get into glorified and then you get into
fantasy and then you get into the persona and this pressure of
wow, if I could just be this person, this female version of
myself full time, that's where happiness lives.
(33:19):
That's where my authenticity lives.
So I don't want to give away toomuch about that and rob us all
of a complete episode fan, fan fucking tastic.
But I do think, you know, looking back at these notes,
there's several themes and topics we can use as topics.
(33:40):
You know, there's several themesthat we can say, wow, now that
we've exposed the rawness of theraw.
And thank you, dear listeners, for being a part of this episode
because it really, it could be alittle nerve wracking sharing
your newness. You know, we, we present to you
all in a certain way. And I would like to say that
even our first episode we had, that ended up being my favorite
(34:03):
episode and ended up shocking the shit out of both of us when
some of your friends that were the early listeners were like,
no, that sounds professional, That sounds amazing, that sounds
clean. Because somewhere in that very
first episode, you had referenced the fact that like a
12 year old boy may be useful right now to help us know what
the Hell's going on. Because we've never done this.
(34:25):
Oh my God damn. You know, that kind of thing.
This was great. This was a great day for us and
we really hope you enjoyed beingin on some of our earlier some
of the earlier times before the podcast.
Well, we were just fledglings, little babies in the history.
Little seed things before we knew sometimes you have to take
(34:49):
a million different pathways before seeing, like the obvious
pathway that is just in your face.
And it was like blinding us withits obviousness, but we were
just like in it in this weird way.
It was a journey and it ended and it led to something else.
And that's beautiful and awesomeand very much a part of our
(35:11):
story. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, sweetie. Yeah, and I'm actually, by the
way, I'm writing down that idea they had for a whole other
podcast episode, so we don't forget it.
Authenticity. Yeah.
Like where does it live? When does it become glorified?
When is it actually the idea of authenticity versus the
(35:31):
authenticity of authenticity? Wow.
And don't write a book on that. Let's just do an episode and see
where it goes. Listen, we always could do an
episode that can lead to me writing a book.
About oh, sorry to pressure you and manipulate the search.
Oh, hey everyone. We haven't done the outro yet,
(35:52):
but we're glad you're here and we welcome you with open arms.
Please, please, please continue to share our episodes.
We have a bunch of them. How many do we have?
You told me at the top of the episode.
Well, this. Will be 221.
Wow, wow, wow, wow wow. OK so we love you so much
(36:17):
TuneIn. Every Wednesday for a new
episode and bye for now. Until next time, you can find me
on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing
and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK and to learn more, go to my website
(36:38):
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hangar or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhangar.com.
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
(37:03):
Yes, nailed it.
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