June 18, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode, Julie and Savannah discuss a topic that a couple listeners and fans have been asking about ... autogynephilia. Popularized as a theory by Ray Blanchard in the 1980s and 1990s, this paraphilia is based on the idea that heterosexual transexuals want to transition to the female gender because they are aroused by the notion of being female. While this paraphilia persists even today, the concept that a person's sexuality and arousal are causation for gender transition is flawed and too simplistic to be realistic. Julie and Savannah strap in and give the topic their best effort!
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, understanding
the feminine cross dressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
cross dressers and transgender women.
Hey, Julie. Hi, Savannah.
Smiling still 'cause that all fair is very funny.
We were talking about matey tucks and then it's a throwback
because you don't want to have ameaty tuck.
(00:51):
But then I said that fat pussiesare in, I hear, because I played
Cards Against Humanity last night and there's a couple ones
that referred to fat pussies. I repeat fat pussies.
And then Savannah said, what's that?
Like a camel toe? And I said, well, I don't know,
it's more like a flesh fortune cookie, which I realize is
(01:11):
pretty much a camel toe, so. Wow.
That's where we are, people. Woof.
I got no words for that, but I do have.
Words. Did you just woof?
I did. Woof woof.
I do have other words though. I went to a fundraising gala
event last night. I have to share pictures with
(01:32):
you, my lovely Julie. Amazing.
Thank y'all. It is for the Uplift Outreach
Center here in the Greater Upstate of South Carolina.
We did meet the goal that we setforth.
Unfortunately, it was a lower goal than last year.
So it's tough. It's been a tough year.
It's been a tough season, but wedid meet the goal that was hoped
(01:53):
for. So that was good.
There was a solid auction. There was cash and card
donations which I ended up doingjust I usually sponsor the event
and because of finances I wasn'tsure how I was going to be able
to do it. But at the event I was able to
just go to their website and do a donation straight away because
I felt like I could swing it. I think I will probably do a
(02:14):
post or two on my socials about it because really is super super
important that the queer kids, trans kids, gay, lesbian, the
the whole. All the letters.
Yeah, all the letters the alphabet soup of queerness
really deserve and need a safe space.
Yeah, for sure. And this is this outreach center
is one of those spaces is one ofthe few, if not only in the
(02:37):
Upstate as well as the state of South Carolina.
Once I came down here, burst thebubble of protection and safety
in my own little world in Long Island.
This, I mean, it's not like it wasn't always here as a thing,
but being exposed to it in such a different way really opened my
eyes to advocacy, to supporting these ventures that other people
(02:58):
are doing. And if the least I can do is do
a little donation for them, that's everything you could do.
So we had a great time. We had the Synergy twins, which
is a instead of twins, and they have, they do violin
instrumentals of modern songs. So we have them.
Yeah, they were amazing. Performed twice.
We had AMC slash, queer comedian, trans man, comedian.
(03:21):
He was very, very funny. Again, the silent auction, we
had a little bit of food. It was, yeah, it was lovely.
It was just really lovely time. And I got to dress up in my
beautiful blue gown again, like I wore a keystone.
So I was very, very happy. Did you do the blonde wig with
the dark roots? I thought about it but I ended
up going with the red. Nice solid Joyce, right?
(03:42):
Thank you. Thank you.
So much thank you so much for asking about my weekend, it's
been going great. And just one second, please, how
was your weekend? Oh, you're so kind, Boopy.
Do boop. My weekend has been great.
It's only Sunday so it's not over.
I'm slightly worried about this,like non depressed feeling
(04:05):
overall because I'm just waitingfor the crash on Monday people.
OK but I got purpose so it's notreally going to happen.
OK don't worry, I'm still me. It was great.
Last night I got together with my two friends, Cynthia and
Blonde Amy. Her name is Blonde Amy because
Cynthia's sister is Amy. And so I got so confused with
(04:26):
all the names when I was first meeting them that I dubbed the
blonde Amy. Yes, we laughed.
And you know those like belly laughs that are just so healing.
It just feels like you, I don't know, you had a major orgasm.
I repeat, had a major orgasm. You have gotten so bad lately
(04:51):
and I love it. Yes, so much laughter,
especially with those Cards Against Humanity.
I mean, that is a fun game. I played only two times and it
brought on this laugh that like,you know when you hear yourself
laugh and knew in different waysand you're like, wow, I didn't
think I laughed that way. That happened.
I love it. I love the ones.
(05:12):
I love the ones where you snort inadvertently.
Yeah, yeah, there's a couple snorts, but it was just so
great. And today I woke up just so
thankful to be alive. Like I felt like that was
exactly the amount of joy my system needed.
And then you right in the joy. It was the laughing and it was
(05:32):
so healing and great. And I just, I'm so thankful.
So that was my last night. And yet today I went to Noah's
Bagels. Not a sponsor and I got a bagel
and it's not. Maybe it's corned beef, I don't
know. Whatever it is that looks like
corned beef sandwich, but they have Pickles and Swiss NUM NUM.
(05:57):
NUM NUM NUM NUM. But it's not corned beef.
It's. Roast beef.
Rams, what kind of bagel do we have today?
She's taking too long. It would have been fabulous if
she answered me TikTok or any who is delicious.
OK good. All right, so we have a topic
today. What is our topic of the day?
(06:20):
Today's topic is something I think I Sing Song did a few
episodes ago, but it's Autocon the Yeah, I received actually 2
messages over the last month andI will read the one for you.
I could find the second one for some reason and I tried to save
(06:41):
it with purpose but it didn't come out.
R&T said I won't give away names.
They said hello, hope you're doing well.
I meant to ask you something butdidn't think of it till today.
Have you heard the term autogonophilia?
And is it a real thing to attempt to explain things for
some of us? And that was the first, the
second message, which I could not find.
(07:02):
And I will paraphrase, hey, why is everybody hating on
autogonophilia? And can you give us an unbiased
assessment of why people don't like it?
And I'm like, oh, that's it. My book, Gender One O 1 and A-Z
Handbook and Exploration. So I actually went back today,
by the way, before we got together just to see what, what
did I say? It's already been a year since I
(07:24):
put that out. I'm like, what did I have to say
about that? So I thought that today would be
a good time to broach it. I will preface it by saying I am
no expert on the topic. I am not a psychologist, but I
think that it's definitely something we can dig into.
Yeah, but first of all, let's get ready for this piping hot
topic. When I say Otto, you say
(07:45):
gadophilia, Otto. Gadophilia.
Otto Otophilia. All.
Right, with a little more pep, Otto.
Garnophilia. Nice.
Now I'm pumped up. I'm feeling all the juices.
Let's go. What is this?
You know, I don't even I don't even know anymore.
I will give you a missed art theway we've always been starting
(08:07):
lately, and I did cross reference it against my book
Gender 1 and so I will read the definition.
Autogonophilia is a concept for first proposed by psychologist
Ray Blanchard in the late 1980s.He defined it as a man's sexual
arousal at the thought of himself as a woman.
(08:28):
Blanchard used this idea to explain one type of male to
female transgender experience, suggesting there are two broad
types of trans women. I will tell you what those are
homosexual transsexuals. Those are those who are
attracted to men in transition mainly for romantic reasons.
Chicka chicka Baba. Yeah, really.
(08:48):
And then the second is auto gynephilic transsexuals who are
attracted to women and whose transition is motivated more by
erotic feelings towards themselves as women.
Yep. You're like, Yep.
Yep. No, I love it.
I love it. I don't know.
That makes total sense to me. And I it makes total sense to me
(09:11):
because I have met several people who dress because just
the thought of them dressed as awoman is such a turn on for
them. Mostly these are people who
identify as crossdressers. These are people who are mostly
male during a large part of their lives and then they're
craving or their desire is to just even the thought of
(09:34):
transitioning like mentally is aking for them that they really
just really turns them on. But like seeing the
transformation take place for them, putting on the clothes,
putting on the makeup, putting on the wig is just very erotic.
And that's what they chase in terms of their drive for
becoming, if you will. You said coming.
(09:57):
What? You are just naughty.
I love it. I thought you well, young grass.
I have to make a just a point onthis.
In Blanchards theory it's less about cross dressing and more
about transitioning because he is talking about transsexuals.
(10:19):
And again this is the 80s early 90s and he was trying to make us
all aware that his premise was if you transition from male to
female you're doing it because you are turned down by the idea
of you being a woman versus whatyou are mentioning which is kind
of a a fetishism play. I have no intention of
transitioning but I do find an Eroticism and a taboo and a
(10:42):
fetishism of dressing that it isa turn out.
So yes I think the idea if we could decouple the like I am
intent on transitioning because the idea of myself as a woman is
just my erotic fantasy because Ifeel transitioning for that
reason seems absurd. Like why would I spend hundreds
(11:03):
of thousands of dollars, possible ostracization going
through the pain of social indignity just because I think
it's hot that I got boobs? And a.
Vagina. Right.
Well to your point, or maybe notto your point, I'm reading these
notes and it says not so much that they're attracted to
themselves as I'm reading it right now in the notes, but who
(11:26):
are attracted to women and who'sOK fine them as well, but
they're also horny for the woman.
Sure, sure. Yeah, This is one of those
topics that's really strange to tackle.
So I was a little hesitant aboutit because again, I am no expert
on this. And then all the reading and all
the research and I actually whenI heard this term originally now
(11:49):
for me, for me as a non transitioning male, female trans
person, I was like, you know what?
It makes sense. Kind of like what you said you
brought in with. Yeah, I know people who do it
because it's a turn on. And I'm like, yeah, that kind of
makes sense to me. But the more and more and more I
explore Savannah and the more that I allow her to be embodied
(12:10):
and the more normalized it comesfrom my heart and soul.
Yes, there is a sensuality to itthat's always kind of a turn on
for me. Like just being able to wear
sexy clothes and beautiful lingerie.
There's something about that that's very, very appealing.
And just sensory wise, it's amazing in a turn on in a very
(12:33):
sensual sense. But I've never looked at myself
as other than fantasy, other than Oh my God, if I woke and
I've said this before on the show, oh, if I woke up tomorrow
with boobs in a vagina, I would,I guess I'd be like, well, I
guess I'm living the second-halfof my life this way, right?
As long as I don't have the reality of the pain and
suffering of going through the process of an actual transition
(12:56):
either pre op, post op, whatever.
It's like that doesn't appeal tome.
So the idea that like, yes, there is a sensuality that's
heightened with the dressing, I agree with that.
But to actually try to couple itwith transitioning, like that's
the only reason to do it, because I think it would be hot
to be a woman. Seems, yeah.
(13:17):
He was very unlikely, and I think that's why it fell out of
popularity after the 90s, because Blanchard was trying to
equate sexuality with gender andwith biology.
What you're saying is like, oh, you're only transitioning
because of the sexual component of it.
Right, you must be transitioningbecause of theater da by it or
(13:38):
else bias. Will you do it?
Because we live in an overly sexual world.
And to make sense of this idea of of the transition and our
understanding around it. Oh, it must be sex related and
they must be turned on by themselves.
Because just talking about this topic, I'm turned on it just,
it's so gross and it just shows the overly fetishized world that
(14:00):
we live in and the idea that even back in the 80s when this
had been going on for century, the idea of male to female or
the whole transgender concept has been a part of our humanity
forever. But that doesn't mean that the
people who are researching this are not within their own lane in
(14:20):
terms of how they process and understand it and what their
research shows. Based on what you know what I
mean? This could be a concept like I
would be interested to read one of the books that this person
wrote. Do they have any?
What's it called when you just like you cite your source, but
it's at the bottom and you do this with footnotes.
Do they have any footnotes? I'm sure he did.
(14:40):
I don't even know if he wrote any books.
He probably did, but he wrote a lot of articles or like
scientific papers kind of thing.I don't know if they were peer
reviewed. I know he gained some traction
with some other guy which I don't know his name at the
moment. Is this maybe around the time
where doctors would see hysterical women and treat their
depression and anxiety by using a vibrator?
(15:02):
I think that's more like the 30s.
I don't remember the physicians would penetrate the woman to
orgasm and then they'd be like, OK, rest for the rest of the
week and that this should cure whatever you're going on.
I'm sure it did, ladies, but let's.
Just, I mean, OK, 22 truth be told, and now we're talking.
It's actually a Broadway play. I think it'll make some off
Broadway play about that thing. But if you think about it, if
(15:24):
you have an orgasm, dopamine, oxytocin, and all those things
are all the lovely chemicals areproduced in your brain.
So I can see there would be a positive effect.
That's definitely not the way togo about it in this case.
In the 80s when this became popularized, you're absolutely
right. The fetishization in the taboo
nature of anybody who was genderexpansive or wanted to
(15:47):
transition and again, they were still called transsexuals at
that point was again, wow, this is so crazy.
It's like, why would people do this?
So yes, because it was so considered stigmatic and just
this, these outliers and why people want to do this.
So it must have been sexual nature.
I think that's why. I think that's why they brought
it up because of the fact that even in the 80s when I was
(16:07):
looking at it, you wouldn't knowanything about crossdressers or
trans women or even hermaphrodites unless it was in
porn, unless it was in the bottom or the back of those
adult magazines. That's where it all lives.
So of course it would be considered.
It must be fetishy. Right, and I totally went in
with that masturbating physicianand then I looked down like
halfway through you talking and I'm like, Nope.
(16:29):
So if you hear that, just know that that's when I look down and
see 1980s. I'm like, Nope.
But yeah, I will often see on myInstagram very old Sally Jesse
Raphael little you know, is it avignette?
I don't know, or Oprah ones or, or just, yeah, just little
(16:52):
segments that this person very bravely said as they understood
it to be as I was born in the wrong body or someone who was
intersexed. And they were like, just trying
to explain that and trying to lightly defend the fact that
Sarah Jessie Rafael love her glasses girl, did not get it.
And what she can make sense of or what all these famous talk
(17:13):
show hosts can wrap their head around and was trying to steer
the audience towards is sexuality and how this must be a
fetish or else how can we process?
I mean, there would be moments where in this particular one I'm
thinking of with Sarah Jesse of Raphael, she can't understand or
(17:33):
accept the person's answer. Who's for the person?
It's been normalized. And they're not really
defensive, so to say. They're just kind of monotone.
And they just keep on repeating their truth over and over.
And her questions were all basedon, so you're a lesbian.
Or does this turn you want just really just trying to use sex as
(17:57):
the only thing that they can understand to wrap their head
around a concept that still baffles the brain of people who
aren't in the community. And they're trying to understand
they're, they're supportive, butthey don't quite get it.
And so there's been a lot of times in my life where I've been
the spokesperson where I feel kind of embarrassed, but it
feels necessary to debunk all their ideas is largely fixating
(18:22):
on what it means through a sexual lens and explaining that
gender and sexuality are two different things are something
for me. I just integrated last year.
Before then, it was very much, I'm trying to understand this
idea that gender and sexuality are two different things, or I
am reteaching myself and relearning that gender and
(18:45):
sexuality are actually two different things.
And now I can. It has fully, something shifted
in my brain through doing this so long where it really has
integrated. But I've been doing this work.
I've been hearing hundreds and hundreds of different trans
stories, and that's where I'm getting my data.
And now it's applying to my truth and upbringing, which is
(19:06):
an upbringing in truth we all had about humans and Adam and
Eve, not Adam and Steve. You know what I mean?
So yeah. It's funny you said that, where
you're basing your own hypothesis of what makes people
trans based on all the people you've been talking to and all
the stories you've been hearing and how you major make your own
(19:28):
assessment of wow. There's not a direct corollary.
Everybody's got their own story,which is one of the criticisms
of Blanchard's hypothesis is that he basically oversimplified
and over sexualized this premise.
And if we go back to what we said before, homosexual
transsexuals who are attracted to men.
So we're talking about men who are attracted to men and so
(19:49):
transition so that they can be the woman of the relationship
with a man. OK, so that's the non
autogonophilic 1. But if you're, I don't kind of
feel like transsexual, that means you're attracted to women.
So I guess you're heterosexual as a man.
But when you transition, then you want to be a lesbian because
(20:11):
you love the idea of being a woman, but you still are
attracted to women. So the idea that those things
are so tightly wound together that your sexuality determines
whether you fall under this. I love myself as a woman.
Is a turn on. It's just absurd, as I said
before. And that also brings the second
point of, OK, and you said this earlier, I'm in the wrong body.
(20:34):
I don't feel comfortable in my body.
So what will happen when I do some sort of physical, chemical,
cosmetic transition? I will be happier in the body
that's closer to how I see myself or how I see my gender.
There is an irony to this. I think he was poking around the
edges of the reality of what makes a trans person a trans
(20:56):
person. But I think he had it, like you
said, he had it all wrong. Like Sally, Jesse Raphael had it
all wrong. Couldn't comprehend because it
coming out from a very CIS hetero point of view.
And because everything was stillso taboo in the 80s and early
90s, he just couldn't comprehendthat.
Yeah, you know what? Maybe we want to transition
(21:17):
because it's what's right for me, not because I want to be a
lesbian in a relationship with another woman.
And I think it's hot to have tits.
It feels very short. Sighted.
First of all, it is hot stuff tits.
But yeah, I'm looking over this timeline and I just want to
share just a little bit about who still uses the concepts
(21:40):
today. Yes.
Some sexologist and niche researchers, a few researchers,
a few researchers nailed it. Still explore ottogonophilia as
part of broader theories about sexuality and identity,
especially those who focused on parapilias unusual sexual
(22:05):
interests. The next one is anti trans
activists and commenters. Commentators, excuse me.
Some people opposed to trans rights use the term to argue
that transgender women aren't truly women but are motivated by
sexual reasons. Certain online communities, some
parts of Reddit, 4 Chan and specific blogs discuss
(22:29):
autogynophilia, often with a mixof genuine inquiry, confusion,
or transphobia. A handful of trans women's
themselves. Interestingly, a few trans women
have said they relate to the concept at least in part, but
often criticize how Blanchard framed it.
They might prefer more nuanced language to describe their
(22:51):
experiences without stigma. So that's all very interesting,
and I want to read that because we truly want to understand this
word and this topic today. If our understanding of it as
you're listening now feels slightly more negative, we also
want to acknowledge the piece that certain trans folks can
(23:12):
maybe relate to this, and that'spart of their truth, which is
also a part of our own understanding about it.
It's just new for us, and to me,I think it's fabulous and
fascinating and I love it. The fact that it's so dated
definitely tells me that historically we're gaining more
(23:33):
accurate information. And as a collective community,
transgender community, our visibility, not mine, but me as
an ally, our visibility has extended itself so much that
doctors decided they will go into this.
FFS, patient feminization surgery as a specialty, because
(23:56):
this is real. And then practitioners and
pediatricians and everyone's just trying to understand this
there. There's so much more
information. Trans people for a while now
have had to be their own doctorsto these doctors because even
still, the doctor may get a specialty, something in medical
(24:17):
school around the time we are living in now, but there's still
not enough information. But it shows our growth, the
fact that this was in the 80s and now here we are today in
2025, and it's it looks archaic.You know what I mean?
It kind of feels like, wow, thatwas a thing.
(24:37):
That still kind of is a thing. Question mark.
Question mark. You know, and that's actually
the crux of why I wanted to bring it up, because if two
people are asking me about this topic, about this term, you're
absolutely right. This is 40 year old data, but
yet some people are coming across it now.
And so it's still being whispered around the universe
(24:59):
and online. And I think that some people
still have yet to uncouple theirsexuality from their gender
presentation, gender identity. And that's OK because we've
talked about this before. Plenty of young boys, early
adolescent men find that there is a sexual component to their
(25:20):
dressing. And the more you dress, the more
you have sexual experience with it.
So you it becomes very entwined with the identity of who you
are. So even you actually put it all
together versus realizing that it is not a correlation, not a
causation. So your sexuality is not
informed by the fact that you like dressing in sexy things.
(25:41):
Unfortunately, if you do it during adolescence, you're going
to find those two things very closely linked.
For me, if you remember when I first was going to clubs in New
York, it's all these beautiful drag Queens.
All of a sudden I'm thinking, Ohno, I'm attracted to these drag
Queens and trans women and I must be gay.
And I couldn't decouple my attraction component, which
(26:02):
brought up the second book I wrote.
And so I think for some reason, humanity, we always try to
equate sexuality into a lot of things that we do in the horror
versus seeing these things as very exclusive of each other.
And yes, they all kind of work in tandem.
And there's a big melting pot and there's big soup of stuff
all happening to us. But to say that, oh, you're
(26:24):
doing this because you're fetishistic or you're doing this
because you're you want to be a woman with a woman and then
trying to make fantasy reality or consider that just because
you think the thoughts and makesit true on total.
Yeah. Like you said, super
fascinating, very archaic. When you read it and you really
(26:44):
dig into it, the fact is some people are coming across a word
and are like, Oh yeah, I definitely see that in myself.
The problem is you have to really dig in deeper to get past
that definition, see how it affects you as a person.
And I went into my third book and let me just see if I can
find it real quick. I'm talking about the possible
(27:07):
connection points of autogenophilia and this is what
I said as defined in a previous section.
Autogonophilia is defined as quote, a male's propensity to be
sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female.
End Quote. So what does this mean to the
average red blooded biological male who has a propensity to
wear feminine attire? We can break this down in many
(27:29):
ways by asking some baseline questions.
So I did a little what does thismean to me?
I said, at what age did you begin cross dressing?
Which goes back to the adolescent cause and effect of
dressing and self sexual exploration.
Are you sexually or sensually aroused when dressed as a woman?
Do you dress only for sexual satisfaction and or release?
(27:50):
Is there a sex shame component to your dressing and in what way
do you see your feminine body? And then I go on to say, when
you begin to ask yourself these questions and answer them
honestly, the responses will lead to an unearthing of the
foundational reasons for your need to express yourself in a
feminine way. Each of your answers to these
questions may help assess where your gender truth resides.
(28:13):
I'm not saying that there is a divorce of sexuality and gender
in biology. I'm not saying that I'm saying
that they all kind of work together in glorious purpose.
But what I'm not saying is, yes,you said you find it very sexy
to be a woman. That does not mean that you want
to transition. It does not mean that you are
(28:34):
tied to that sexuality or the fantasy of that want or need or
belief or thought experiment of being feminine.
Because if that was the case, I'd be full of autoganophilia.
Because when I was dressing earlier, it was such a turn on
going to the clubs, being that feminine presence.
The idea I don't know that I wasjust presenting in the world in
(28:55):
the clubs as a girl on the dancefloor, hopefully having a having
somebody buy me a drink, which never happened.
But the idea that just because Ihad any sort of arousal and it's
still attracted to women has zero bearing on really anything.
So it's not even for me. It's not any sort of paraphilia
because there's no connection other than living a human life.
(29:19):
Right, right. I mean, it's, I don't know,
female curves and dressing and being feminine.
It is all very sensual and sexual, if you will, and at
least for crossdressers as they define themselves to be, or
people that are into kink, as I was unboxing at the start of the
(29:41):
episode. A lot of people start off and
how you've explained it start off maybe an adolescence or
whenever they decide to become is by a turn on, right, a
sensual sexual urge. Not always, and I don't want to
say always, that's the starting point, but it's real and it's
(30:03):
something that I would describe as worshipping of the female
form. AI don't know there's that sexy
part of even the thought processof a CIS man picturing
themselves as a woman. That for some is very arousing,
you know? Yeah.
Now when you said that, something popped in my head
(30:25):
which was very interesting. And because we're in a
patriarchal society, who would think it?
But you know, how many women want to, I'd say, be a man, but
how many women work in the a very male centric country
universe? What do you want to call it?
And they're getting the hedges that they have to start exuding
the stereotypical behaviors of aman to like, be in a man's
(30:46):
world. Act the part, play the part,
look the part. That doesn't mean they're
aroused to be a man. There's a different intention to
it. I absolutely like if I were a
boy, like I think there would beto earn respect, there would be
to gain power. And we're just talking a
mediocre white man. You know, we're not even
(31:08):
striving for the top of the top because just a mediocre white
man is enough for us to just getat the table, open the door.
Having the C part at a nursing home as you're just walking
normally and just happened to becoming from work in a suit, like
we don't even need that it, it comes from a different place and
that place I think females are way sexier, but women have been
(31:33):
fetishized forever. So of course their worth and
people desire that sensual sexual imagine if they're like,
well, I can't imagine because they know a lot of trans women
that we're discussing this rightnow.
But just that feminine psyche, you know, that's a whole nother
topic. That's a whole nother situation
(31:54):
where, you know, certain trans women of a certain age may think
I will never get there. I will never truly know that.
But that's totally different. That's assuming women have
brains and spiritual ideas. And I'm simply, I know, right?
I'm just going to hair out my titties right now because I'm
(32:16):
just no, just kidding. Oh my God, I hope no one crashed
when I said that on their commute to work.
OK? I'm just your kid sister.
OK, so anyways I forget what we were talking about.
Totally relates. It was related and the one thing
I want to really pull from what you said is women have been
(32:37):
sexualized forever. The weaker sex, the Eve to Adam
pull from his rib. Women have always just been the
nurturing part of the human experience to procreate, to
amass more people on earth. How many centuries did it take
for women in America to be able to vote women's suffrage?
(32:58):
There's the absurdity to the inequality between women and
men. So what I wanted to pull from
that was this kind of sexual objectification, which we talked
about few episodes ago. The idea that what do I want to
say here? Just the fact that there's an
inherency to seeing women, because we were taught this, to
(33:20):
see women as a both as sexual objects and as very sexual.
As you said, there's something about the curves or something
about the form, the hair, the lifeness, the makeup, all the
things that women do to become attractive to men, just in the
standard sense of the word. It's always been there.
(33:40):
There's always been that inherency of beauty and
beautification and sensuality. That's always been part of
things. So how can a man who either sees
himself as a woman in practicality in a mirror or
would love to see himself as a woman, how is he possibly not
going to be turned on by that? I know.
(34:02):
I mean, look. Look, it's.
It's a horrible cross to bear when you're just such a sexy
woman. And even those who don't
identify as such, such sexy women.
I mean, it's exhausting. It takes a toll on you.
I mean, we, we paid our stews. Oh my God, no.
(34:27):
But I do think that maybe there's someone later in life.
They're like, and I want tits because I'm so turned on by that
and it's my last act and I've always been like more female
than not. I'm going to go get the surgery.
I think there's probably it could be 2.5% OK, but I really
think that I don't know. I mean.
(34:47):
Don't you think let's just talk as girls?
I do think that. I think that there's something
weather, early life, midlife, late life, I don't think it
matters. There's a point if you're on the
road to transition, that the concept of something your body
is not. My body's flat.
I don't have perky breasts. I don't have a curvy booty and
(35:09):
hips in waist sets kind of cinched up.
Like I need to take out a few ribs and I need to do all the
things. Nicole Kidman collapsed couple
ribs. It's those things that, yeah,
there's something very inherent that maybe that's where Blancher
came from. Maybe that's where he was
thinking as well. If you want to do this but you
still love women, then it must be something about you in the
(35:31):
guise of a woman. That's what makes you want to do
it. If you're not a homosexual or if
if you still love women, then that must be the reason why.
I see where he got there. But the premise is so flawed.
It's so simplistic. And he's assuming that everyone
is erectus as they get this done.
Like the entire time they're just erectus or after the
(35:54):
healing stage, it takes maybe four weeks after implants.
I think, don't quote me ladies, that they're just erectus all
the time because they get to nowplay with their titties.
That's assuming they don't have bottom surgery.
Look, the evidence is wrong. The research is flawed.
It is. It is, I think, if anybody.
(36:16):
But there is the 2.5%. You know what?
There's always, like you said it.
Why does it pop up sometimes? There are still some trans women
themselves who say, huh, yeah, Ican get behind that.
We're never saying it is not truth for somebody.
But as a general concept, I think the linking of whether I'm
homosexual or heterosexual and what that means to what I want
(36:40):
for my own body is not causation.
There's nothing there that I think would support this.
Right, so, right. So thank you so much for
bringing this topic. Thank you.
It's always the topics that are dense that I have the most fun
with, especially where there's analysis involved.
I freaking love analysis. So you love analysis?
(37:02):
By analysis, I mean thinking about men getting turned on by
their bodies and getting surgeryand then like bounce, you go
wow, wow. The system is flawed, the
evidence is flawed. 2% we see you OK?
No, we just want to say thank you for listening and we will go
(37:24):
through every topic and any topic clearly, especially
because people are talking aboutit.
Very recent. Very recent.
So thank you so much to these very recent listeners that have
decided to bring the topic to the mother and now.
And now we're at the end of a very cool episode that's a
(37:46):
little different than our norm. But honestly, do we have a norm?
No, we. Don't.
We don't. But I will tell you the one
thing we do do we'll bring in sexy back.
Yeah. Totally.
OK, Hong Kong. But listen, we remember at the
beginning episodes where I used to constantly upset about your
ass, like obsessed. Yeah.
Remember those days? I know.
(38:08):
And then we got to know each other and it plotted.
OK Anyway, dude, I love you. I love you too.
So you want to know what else? I know it to be true?
What's that love? Unless we tell them otherwise.
That every Wednesday there's going to be a new episode of our
podcast. Yes.
(38:28):
Unless told otherwise, that's absolutely the case.
You hear what I said? Isn't that like teacher's pet?
I said that and. Then you said it.
You did. Any who, I just want to say this
has been a delightful episode and I love you Savannah.
Oh, I love you too, Julie. Oh, so bye for now.
(38:51):
Until next time, you can find meon Facebook at Savannah Hawk or
at Living with Cross Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah
Hawk. Remember, that's HAUK and to
learn more, go to my website livingwithcrossdressing.com.
And you can find me on Instagramand Facebook at Fox and Hangar
(39:12):
or at Julie MTF Style, as well as on our website at
foxandhangar.com. Julie, it's your moment.
The Fox and the Phoenix podcast uses Spotify for creators.
Copyright 2025. Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, understanding
the feminine cross dressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
cross dressers and transgender women.
Hey, Julie. Hi, Savannah.
Smiling still 'cause that all fair is very funny.
We were talking about matey tucks and then it's a throwback
because you don't want to have ameaty tuck.
(00:51):
But then I said that fat pussiesare in, I hear, because I played
Cards Against Humanity last night and there's a couple ones
that referred to fat pussies. I repeat fat pussies.
And then Savannah said, what's that?
Like a camel toe? And I said, well, I don't know,
it's more like a flesh fortune cookie, which I realize is
(01:11):
pretty much a camel toe, so. Wow.
That's where we are, people. Woof.
I got no words for that, but I do have.
Words. Did you just woof?
I did. Woof woof.
I do have other words though. I went to a fundraising gala
event last night. I have to share pictures with
(01:32):
you, my lovely Julie. Amazing.
Thank y'all. It is for the Uplift Outreach
Center here in the Greater Upstate of South Carolina.
We did meet the goal that we setforth.
Unfortunately, it was a lower goal than last year.
So it's tough. It's been a tough year.
It's been a tough season, but wedid meet the goal that was hoped
(01:53):
for. So that was good.
There was a solid auction. There was cash and card
donations which I ended up doingjust I usually sponsor the event
and because of finances I wasn'tsure how I was going to be able
to do it. But at the event I was able to
just go to their website and do a donation straight away because
I felt like I could swing it. I think I will probably do a
(02:14):
post or two on my socials about it because really is super super
important that the queer kids, trans kids, gay, lesbian, the
the whole. All the letters.
Yeah, all the letters the alphabet soup of queerness
really deserve and need a safe space.
Yeah, for sure. And this is this outreach center
is one of those spaces is one ofthe few, if not only in the
(02:37):
Upstate as well as the state of South Carolina.
Once I came down here, burst thebubble of protection and safety
in my own little world in Long Island.
This, I mean, it's not like it wasn't always here as a thing,
but being exposed to it in such a different way really opened my
eyes to advocacy, to supporting these ventures that other people
(02:58):
are doing. And if the least I can do is do
a little donation for them, that's everything you could do.
So we had a great time. We had the Synergy twins, which
is a instead of twins, and they have, they do violin
instrumentals of modern songs. So we have them.
Yeah, they were amazing. Performed twice.
We had AMC slash, queer comedian, trans man, comedian.
(03:21):
He was very, very funny. Again, the silent auction, we
had a little bit of food. It was, yeah, it was lovely.
It was just really lovely time. And I got to dress up in my
beautiful blue gown again, like I wore a keystone.
So I was very, very happy. Did you do the blonde wig with
the dark roots? I thought about it but I ended
up going with the red. Nice solid Joyce, right?
(03:42):
Thank you. Thank you.
So much thank you so much for asking about my weekend, it's
been going great. And just one second, please, how
was your weekend? Oh, you're so kind, Boopy.
Do boop. My weekend has been great.
It's only Sunday so it's not over.
I'm slightly worried about this,like non depressed feeling
(04:05):
overall because I'm just waitingfor the crash on Monday people.
OK but I got purpose so it's notreally going to happen.
OK don't worry, I'm still me. It was great.
Last night I got together with my two friends, Cynthia and
Blonde Amy. Her name is Blonde Amy because
Cynthia's sister is Amy. And so I got so confused with
(04:26):
all the names when I was first meeting them that I dubbed the
blonde Amy. Yes, we laughed.
And you know those like belly laughs that are just so healing.
It just feels like you, I don't know, you had a major orgasm.
I repeat, had a major orgasm. You have gotten so bad lately
(04:51):
and I love it. Yes, so much laughter,
especially with those Cards Against Humanity.
I mean, that is a fun game. I played only two times and it
brought on this laugh that like,you know when you hear yourself
laugh and knew in different waysand you're like, wow, I didn't
think I laughed that way. That happened.
I love it. I love the ones.
(05:12):
I love the ones where you snort inadvertently.
Yeah, yeah, there's a couple snorts, but it was just so
great. And today I woke up just so
thankful to be alive. Like I felt like that was
exactly the amount of joy my system needed.
And then you right in the joy. It was the laughing and it was
(05:32):
so healing and great. And I just, I'm so thankful.
So that was my last night. And yet today I went to Noah's
Bagels. Not a sponsor and I got a bagel
and it's not. Maybe it's corned beef, I don't
know. Whatever it is that looks like
corned beef sandwich, but they have Pickles and Swiss NUM NUM.
(05:57):
NUM NUM NUM NUM. But it's not corned beef.
It's. Roast beef.
Rams, what kind of bagel do we have today?
She's taking too long. It would have been fabulous if
she answered me TikTok or any who is delicious.
OK good. All right, so we have a topic
today. What is our topic of the day?
(06:20):
Today's topic is something I think I Sing Song did a few
episodes ago, but it's Autocon the Yeah, I received actually 2
messages over the last month andI will read the one for you.
I could find the second one for some reason and I tried to save
(06:41):
it with purpose but it didn't come out.
R&T said I won't give away names.
They said hello, hope you're doing well.
I meant to ask you something butdidn't think of it till today.
Have you heard the term autogonophilia?
And is it a real thing to attempt to explain things for
some of us? And that was the first, the
second message, which I could not find.
(07:02):
And I will paraphrase, hey, why is everybody hating on
autogonophilia? And can you give us an unbiased
assessment of why people don't like it?
And I'm like, oh, that's it. My book, Gender One O 1 and A-Z
Handbook and Exploration. So I actually went back today,
by the way, before we got together just to see what, what
did I say? It's already been a year since I
(07:24):
put that out. I'm like, what did I have to say
about that? So I thought that today would be
a good time to broach it. I will preface it by saying I am
no expert on the topic. I am not a psychologist, but I
think that it's definitely something we can dig into.
Yeah, but first of all, let's get ready for this piping hot
topic. When I say Otto, you say
(07:45):
gadophilia, Otto. Gadophilia.
Otto Otophilia. All.
Right, with a little more pep, Otto.
Garnophilia. Nice.
Now I'm pumped up. I'm feeling all the juices.
Let's go. What is this?
You know, I don't even I don't even know anymore.
I will give you a missed art theway we've always been starting
(08:07):
lately, and I did cross reference it against my book
Gender 1 and so I will read the definition.
Autogonophilia is a concept for first proposed by psychologist
Ray Blanchard in the late 1980s.He defined it as a man's sexual
arousal at the thought of himself as a woman.
(08:28):
Blanchard used this idea to explain one type of male to
female transgender experience, suggesting there are two broad
types of trans women. I will tell you what those are
homosexual transsexuals. Those are those who are
attracted to men in transition mainly for romantic reasons.
Chicka chicka Baba. Yeah, really.
(08:48):
And then the second is auto gynephilic transsexuals who are
attracted to women and whose transition is motivated more by
erotic feelings towards themselves as women.
Yep. You're like, Yep.
Yep. No, I love it.
I love it. I don't know.
That makes total sense to me. And I it makes total sense to me
(09:11):
because I have met several people who dress because just
the thought of them dressed as awoman is such a turn on for
them. Mostly these are people who
identify as crossdressers. These are people who are mostly
male during a large part of their lives and then they're
craving or their desire is to just even the thought of
(09:34):
transitioning like mentally is aking for them that they really
just really turns them on. But like seeing the
transformation take place for them, putting on the clothes,
putting on the makeup, putting on the wig is just very erotic.
And that's what they chase in terms of their drive for
becoming, if you will. You said coming.
(09:57):
What? You are just naughty.
I love it. I thought you well, young grass.
I have to make a just a point onthis.
In Blanchards theory it's less about cross dressing and more
about transitioning because he is talking about transsexuals.
(10:19):
And again this is the 80s early 90s and he was trying to make us
all aware that his premise was if you transition from male to
female you're doing it because you are turned down by the idea
of you being a woman versus whatyou are mentioning which is kind
of a a fetishism play. I have no intention of
transitioning but I do find an Eroticism and a taboo and a
(10:42):
fetishism of dressing that it isa turn out.
So yes I think the idea if we could decouple the like I am
intent on transitioning because the idea of myself as a woman is
just my erotic fantasy because Ifeel transitioning for that
reason seems absurd. Like why would I spend hundreds
(11:03):
of thousands of dollars, possible ostracization going
through the pain of social indignity just because I think
it's hot that I got boobs? And a.
Vagina. Right.
Well to your point, or maybe notto your point, I'm reading these
notes and it says not so much that they're attracted to
themselves as I'm reading it right now in the notes, but who
(11:26):
are attracted to women and who'sOK fine them as well, but
they're also horny for the woman.
Sure, sure. Yeah, This is one of those
topics that's really strange to tackle.
So I was a little hesitant aboutit because again, I am no expert
on this. And then all the reading and all
the research and I actually whenI heard this term originally now
(11:49):
for me, for me as a non transitioning male, female trans
person, I was like, you know what?
It makes sense. Kind of like what you said you
brought in with. Yeah, I know people who do it
because it's a turn on. And I'm like, yeah, that kind of
makes sense to me. But the more and more and more I
explore Savannah and the more that I allow her to be embodied
(12:10):
and the more normalized it comesfrom my heart and soul.
Yes, there is a sensuality to itthat's always kind of a turn on
for me. Like just being able to wear
sexy clothes and beautiful lingerie.
There's something about that that's very, very appealing.
And just sensory wise, it's amazing in a turn on in a very
(12:33):
sensual sense. But I've never looked at myself
as other than fantasy, other than Oh my God, if I woke and
I've said this before on the show, oh, if I woke up tomorrow
with boobs in a vagina, I would,I guess I'd be like, well, I
guess I'm living the second-halfof my life this way, right?
As long as I don't have the reality of the pain and
suffering of going through the process of an actual transition
(12:56):
either pre op, post op, whatever.
It's like that doesn't appeal tome.
So the idea that like, yes, there is a sensuality that's
heightened with the dressing, I agree with that.
But to actually try to couple itwith transitioning, like that's
the only reason to do it, because I think it would be hot
to be a woman. Seems, yeah.
(13:17):
He was very unlikely, and I think that's why it fell out of
popularity after the 90s, because Blanchard was trying to
equate sexuality with gender andwith biology.
What you're saying is like, oh, you're only transitioning
because of the sexual component of it.
Right, you must be transitioningbecause of theater da by it or
(13:38):
else bias. Will you do it?
Because we live in an overly sexual world.
And to make sense of this idea of of the transition and our
understanding around it. Oh, it must be sex related and
they must be turned on by themselves.
Because just talking about this topic, I'm turned on it just,
it's so gross and it just shows the overly fetishized world that
(14:00):
we live in and the idea that even back in the 80s when this
had been going on for century, the idea of male to female or
the whole transgender concept has been a part of our humanity
forever. But that doesn't mean that the
people who are researching this are not within their own lane in
(14:20):
terms of how they process and understand it and what their
research shows. Based on what you know what I
mean? This could be a concept like I
would be interested to read one of the books that this person
wrote. Do they have any?
What's it called when you just like you cite your source, but
it's at the bottom and you do this with footnotes.
Do they have any footnotes? I'm sure he did.
(14:40):
I don't even know if he wrote any books.
He probably did, but he wrote a lot of articles or like
scientific papers kind of thing.I don't know if they were peer
reviewed. I know he gained some traction
with some other guy which I don't know his name at the
moment. Is this maybe around the time
where doctors would see hysterical women and treat their
depression and anxiety by using a vibrator?
(15:02):
I think that's more like the 30s.
I don't remember the physicians would penetrate the woman to
orgasm and then they'd be like, OK, rest for the rest of the
week and that this should cure whatever you're going on.
I'm sure it did, ladies, but let's.
Just, I mean, OK, 22 truth be told, and now we're talking.
It's actually a Broadway play. I think it'll make some off
Broadway play about that thing. But if you think about it, if
(15:24):
you have an orgasm, dopamine, oxytocin, and all those things
are all the lovely chemicals areproduced in your brain.
So I can see there would be a positive effect.
That's definitely not the way togo about it in this case.
In the 80s when this became popularized, you're absolutely
right. The fetishization in the taboo
nature of anybody who was genderexpansive or wanted to
(15:47):
transition and again, they were still called transsexuals at
that point was again, wow, this is so crazy.
It's like, why would people do this?
So yes, because it was so considered stigmatic and just
this, these outliers and why people want to do this.
So it must have been sexual nature.
I think that's why. I think that's why they brought
it up because of the fact that even in the 80s when I was
(16:07):
looking at it, you wouldn't knowanything about crossdressers or
trans women or even hermaphrodites unless it was in
porn, unless it was in the bottom or the back of those
adult magazines. That's where it all lives.
So of course it would be considered.
It must be fetishy. Right, and I totally went in
with that masturbating physicianand then I looked down like
halfway through you talking and I'm like, Nope.
(16:29):
So if you hear that, just know that that's when I look down and
see 1980s. I'm like, Nope.
But yeah, I will often see on myInstagram very old Sally Jesse
Raphael little you know, is it avignette?
I don't know, or Oprah ones or, or just, yeah, just little
(16:52):
segments that this person very bravely said as they understood
it to be as I was born in the wrong body or someone who was
intersexed. And they were like, just trying
to explain that and trying to lightly defend the fact that
Sarah Jessie Rafael love her glasses girl, did not get it.
And what she can make sense of or what all these famous talk
(17:13):
show hosts can wrap their head around and was trying to steer
the audience towards is sexuality and how this must be a
fetish or else how can we process?
I mean, there would be moments where in this particular one I'm
thinking of with Sarah Jesse of Raphael, she can't understand or
(17:33):
accept the person's answer. Who's for the person?
It's been normalized. And they're not really
defensive, so to say. They're just kind of monotone.
And they just keep on repeating their truth over and over.
And her questions were all basedon, so you're a lesbian.
Or does this turn you want just really just trying to use sex as
(17:57):
the only thing that they can understand to wrap their head
around a concept that still baffles the brain of people who
aren't in the community. And they're trying to understand
they're, they're supportive, butthey don't quite get it.
And so there's been a lot of times in my life where I've been
the spokesperson where I feel kind of embarrassed, but it
feels necessary to debunk all their ideas is largely fixating
(18:22):
on what it means through a sexual lens and explaining that
gender and sexuality are two different things are something
for me. I just integrated last year.
Before then, it was very much, I'm trying to understand this
idea that gender and sexuality are two different things, or I
am reteaching myself and relearning that gender and
(18:45):
sexuality are actually two different things.
And now I can. It has fully, something shifted
in my brain through doing this so long where it really has
integrated. But I've been doing this work.
I've been hearing hundreds and hundreds of different trans
stories, and that's where I'm getting my data.
And now it's applying to my truth and upbringing, which is
(19:06):
an upbringing in truth we all had about humans and Adam and
Eve, not Adam and Steve. You know what I mean?
So yeah. It's funny you said that, where
you're basing your own hypothesis of what makes people
trans based on all the people you've been talking to and all
the stories you've been hearing and how you major make your own
(19:28):
assessment of wow. There's not a direct corollary.
Everybody's got their own story,which is one of the criticisms
of Blanchard's hypothesis is that he basically oversimplified
and over sexualized this premise.
And if we go back to what we said before, homosexual
transsexuals who are attracted to men.
So we're talking about men who are attracted to men and so
(19:49):
transition so that they can be the woman of the relationship
with a man. OK, so that's the non
autogonophilic 1. But if you're, I don't kind of
feel like transsexual, that means you're attracted to women.
So I guess you're heterosexual as a man.
But when you transition, then you want to be a lesbian because
(20:11):
you love the idea of being a woman, but you still are
attracted to women. So the idea that those things
are so tightly wound together that your sexuality determines
whether you fall under this. I love myself as a woman.
Is a turn on. It's just absurd, as I said
before. And that also brings the second
point of, OK, and you said this earlier, I'm in the wrong body.
(20:34):
I don't feel comfortable in my body.
So what will happen when I do some sort of physical, chemical,
cosmetic transition? I will be happier in the body
that's closer to how I see myself or how I see my gender.
There is an irony to this. I think he was poking around the
edges of the reality of what makes a trans person a trans
(20:56):
person. But I think he had it, like you
said, he had it all wrong. Like Sally, Jesse Raphael had it
all wrong. Couldn't comprehend because it
coming out from a very CIS hetero point of view.
And because everything was stillso taboo in the 80s and early
90s, he just couldn't comprehendthat.
Yeah, you know what? Maybe we want to transition
(21:17):
because it's what's right for me, not because I want to be a
lesbian in a relationship with another woman.
And I think it's hot to have tits.
It feels very short. Sighted.
First of all, it is hot stuff tits.
But yeah, I'm looking over this timeline and I just want to
share just a little bit about who still uses the concepts
(21:40):
today. Yes.
Some sexologist and niche researchers, a few researchers,
a few researchers nailed it. Still explore ottogonophilia as
part of broader theories about sexuality and identity,
especially those who focused on parapilias unusual sexual
(22:05):
interests. The next one is anti trans
activists and commenters. Commentators, excuse me.
Some people opposed to trans rights use the term to argue
that transgender women aren't truly women but are motivated by
sexual reasons. Certain online communities, some
parts of Reddit, 4 Chan and specific blogs discuss
(22:29):
autogynophilia, often with a mixof genuine inquiry, confusion,
or transphobia. A handful of trans women's
themselves. Interestingly, a few trans women
have said they relate to the concept at least in part, but
often criticize how Blanchard framed it.
They might prefer more nuanced language to describe their
(22:51):
experiences without stigma. So that's all very interesting,
and I want to read that because we truly want to understand this
word and this topic today. If our understanding of it as
you're listening now feels slightly more negative, we also
want to acknowledge the piece that certain trans folks can
(23:12):
maybe relate to this, and that'spart of their truth, which is
also a part of our own understanding about it.
It's just new for us, and to me,I think it's fabulous and
fascinating and I love it. The fact that it's so dated
definitely tells me that historically we're gaining more
(23:33):
accurate information. And as a collective community,
transgender community, our visibility, not mine, but me as
an ally, our visibility has extended itself so much that
doctors decided they will go into this.
FFS, patient feminization surgery as a specialty, because
(23:56):
this is real. And then practitioners and
pediatricians and everyone's just trying to understand this
there. There's so much more
information. Trans people for a while now
have had to be their own doctorsto these doctors because even
still, the doctor may get a specialty, something in medical
(24:17):
school around the time we are living in now, but there's still
not enough information. But it shows our growth, the
fact that this was in the 80s and now here we are today in
2025, and it's it looks archaic.You know what I mean?
It kind of feels like, wow, thatwas a thing.
(24:37):
That still kind of is a thing. Question mark.
Question mark. You know, and that's actually
the crux of why I wanted to bring it up, because if two
people are asking me about this topic, about this term, you're
absolutely right. This is 40 year old data, but
yet some people are coming across it now.
And so it's still being whispered around the universe
(24:59):
and online. And I think that some people
still have yet to uncouple theirsexuality from their gender
presentation, gender identity. And that's OK because we've
talked about this before. Plenty of young boys, early
adolescent men find that there is a sexual component to their
(25:20):
dressing. And the more you dress, the more
you have sexual experience with it.
So you it becomes very entwined with the identity of who you
are. So even you actually put it all
together versus realizing that it is not a correlation, not a
causation. So your sexuality is not
informed by the fact that you like dressing in sexy things.
(25:41):
Unfortunately, if you do it during adolescence, you're going
to find those two things very closely linked.
For me, if you remember when I first was going to clubs in New
York, it's all these beautiful drag Queens.
All of a sudden I'm thinking, Ohno, I'm attracted to these drag
Queens and trans women and I must be gay.
And I couldn't decouple my attraction component, which
(26:02):
brought up the second book I wrote.
And so I think for some reason, humanity, we always try to
equate sexuality into a lot of things that we do in the horror
versus seeing these things as very exclusive of each other.
And yes, they all kind of work in tandem.
And there's a big melting pot and there's big soup of stuff
all happening to us. But to say that, oh, you're
(26:24):
doing this because you're fetishistic or you're doing this
because you're you want to be a woman with a woman and then
trying to make fantasy reality or consider that just because
you think the thoughts and makesit true on total.
Yeah. Like you said, super
fascinating, very archaic. When you read it and you really
(26:44):
dig into it, the fact is some people are coming across a word
and are like, Oh yeah, I definitely see that in myself.
The problem is you have to really dig in deeper to get past
that definition, see how it affects you as a person.
And I went into my third book and let me just see if I can
find it real quick. I'm talking about the possible
(27:07):
connection points of autogenophilia and this is what
I said as defined in a previous section.
Autogonophilia is defined as quote, a male's propensity to be
sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female.
End Quote. So what does this mean to the
average red blooded biological male who has a propensity to
wear feminine attire? We can break this down in many
(27:29):
ways by asking some baseline questions.
So I did a little what does thismean to me?
I said, at what age did you begin cross dressing?
Which goes back to the adolescent cause and effect of
dressing and self sexual exploration.
Are you sexually or sensually aroused when dressed as a woman?
Do you dress only for sexual satisfaction and or release?
(27:50):
Is there a sex shame component to your dressing and in what way
do you see your feminine body? And then I go on to say, when
you begin to ask yourself these questions and answer them
honestly, the responses will lead to an unearthing of the
foundational reasons for your need to express yourself in a
feminine way. Each of your answers to these
questions may help assess where your gender truth resides.
(28:13):
I'm not saying that there is a divorce of sexuality and gender
in biology. I'm not saying that I'm saying
that they all kind of work together in glorious purpose.
But what I'm not saying is, yes,you said you find it very sexy
to be a woman. That does not mean that you want
to transition. It does not mean that you are
(28:34):
tied to that sexuality or the fantasy of that want or need or
belief or thought experiment of being feminine.
Because if that was the case, I'd be full of autoganophilia.
Because when I was dressing earlier, it was such a turn on
going to the clubs, being that feminine presence.
The idea I don't know that I wasjust presenting in the world in
(28:55):
the clubs as a girl on the dancefloor, hopefully having a having
somebody buy me a drink, which never happened.
But the idea that just because Ihad any sort of arousal and it's
still attracted to women has zero bearing on really anything.
So it's not even for me. It's not any sort of paraphilia
because there's no connection other than living a human life.
(29:19):
Right, right. I mean, it's, I don't know,
female curves and dressing and being feminine.
It is all very sensual and sexual, if you will, and at
least for crossdressers as they define themselves to be, or
people that are into kink, as I was unboxing at the start of the
(29:41):
episode. A lot of people start off and
how you've explained it start off maybe an adolescence or
whenever they decide to become is by a turn on, right, a
sensual sexual urge. Not always, and I don't want to
say always, that's the starting point, but it's real and it's
(30:03):
something that I would describe as worshipping of the female
form. AI don't know there's that sexy
part of even the thought processof a CIS man picturing
themselves as a woman. That for some is very arousing,
you know? Yeah.
Now when you said that, something popped in my head
(30:25):
which was very interesting. And because we're in a
patriarchal society, who would think it?
But you know, how many women want to, I'd say, be a man, but
how many women work in the a very male centric country
universe? What do you want to call it?
And they're getting the hedges that they have to start exuding
the stereotypical behaviors of aman to like, be in a man's
(30:46):
world. Act the part, play the part,
look the part. That doesn't mean they're
aroused to be a man. There's a different intention to
it. I absolutely like if I were a
boy, like I think there would beto earn respect, there would be
to gain power. And we're just talking a
mediocre white man. You know, we're not even
(31:08):
striving for the top of the top because just a mediocre white
man is enough for us to just getat the table, open the door.
Having the C part at a nursing home as you're just walking
normally and just happened to becoming from work in a suit, like
we don't even need that it, it comes from a different place and
that place I think females are way sexier, but women have been
(31:33):
fetishized forever. So of course their worth and
people desire that sensual sexual imagine if they're like,
well, I can't imagine because they know a lot of trans women
that we're discussing this rightnow.
But just that feminine psyche, you know, that's a whole nother
topic. That's a whole nother situation
(31:54):
where, you know, certain trans women of a certain age may think
I will never get there. I will never truly know that.
But that's totally different. That's assuming women have
brains and spiritual ideas. And I'm simply, I know, right?
I'm just going to hair out my titties right now because I'm
(32:16):
just no, just kidding. Oh my God, I hope no one crashed
when I said that on their commute to work.
OK? I'm just your kid sister.
OK, so anyways I forget what we were talking about.
Totally relates. It was related and the one thing
I want to really pull from what you said is women have been
(32:37):
sexualized forever. The weaker sex, the Eve to Adam
pull from his rib. Women have always just been the
nurturing part of the human experience to procreate, to
amass more people on earth. How many centuries did it take
for women in America to be able to vote women's suffrage?
(32:58):
There's the absurdity to the inequality between women and
men. So what I wanted to pull from
that was this kind of sexual objectification, which we talked
about few episodes ago. The idea that what do I want to
say here? Just the fact that there's an
inherency to seeing women, because we were taught this, to
(33:20):
see women as a both as sexual objects and as very sexual.
As you said, there's something about the curves or something
about the form, the hair, the lifeness, the makeup, all the
things that women do to become attractive to men, just in the
standard sense of the word. It's always been there.
(33:40):
There's always been that inherency of beauty and
beautification and sensuality. That's always been part of
things. So how can a man who either sees
himself as a woman in practicality in a mirror or
would love to see himself as a woman, how is he possibly not
going to be turned on by that? I know.
(34:02):
I mean, look. Look, it's.
It's a horrible cross to bear when you're just such a sexy
woman. And even those who don't
identify as such, such sexy women.
I mean, it's exhausting. It takes a toll on you.
I mean, we, we paid our stews. Oh my God, no.
(34:27):
But I do think that maybe there's someone later in life.
They're like, and I want tits because I'm so turned on by that
and it's my last act and I've always been like more female
than not. I'm going to go get the surgery.
I think there's probably it could be 2.5% OK, but I really
think that I don't know. I mean.
(34:47):
Don't you think let's just talk as girls?
I do think that. I think that there's something
weather, early life, midlife, late life, I don't think it
matters. There's a point if you're on the
road to transition, that the concept of something your body
is not. My body's flat.
I don't have perky breasts. I don't have a curvy booty and
(35:09):
hips in waist sets kind of cinched up.
Like I need to take out a few ribs and I need to do all the
things. Nicole Kidman collapsed couple
ribs. It's those things that, yeah,
there's something very inherent that maybe that's where Blancher
came from. Maybe that's where he was
thinking as well. If you want to do this but you
still love women, then it must be something about you in the
(35:31):
guise of a woman. That's what makes you want to do
it. If you're not a homosexual or if
if you still love women, then that must be the reason why.
I see where he got there. But the premise is so flawed.
It's so simplistic. And he's assuming that everyone
is erectus as they get this done.
Like the entire time they're just erectus or after the
(35:54):
healing stage, it takes maybe four weeks after implants.
I think, don't quote me ladies, that they're just erectus all
the time because they get to nowplay with their titties.
That's assuming they don't have bottom surgery.
Look, the evidence is wrong. The research is flawed.
It is. It is, I think, if anybody.
(36:16):
But there is the 2.5%. You know what?
There's always, like you said it.
Why does it pop up sometimes? There are still some trans women
themselves who say, huh, yeah, Ican get behind that.
We're never saying it is not truth for somebody.
But as a general concept, I think the linking of whether I'm
homosexual or heterosexual and what that means to what I want
(36:40):
for my own body is not causation.
There's nothing there that I think would support this.
Right, so, right. So thank you so much for
bringing this topic. Thank you.
It's always the topics that are dense that I have the most fun
with, especially where there's analysis involved.
I freaking love analysis. So you love analysis?
(37:02):
By analysis, I mean thinking about men getting turned on by
their bodies and getting surgeryand then like bounce, you go
wow, wow. The system is flawed, the
evidence is flawed. 2% we see you OK?
No, we just want to say thank you for listening and we will go
(37:24):
through every topic and any topic clearly, especially
because people are talking aboutit.
Very recent. Very recent.
So thank you so much to these very recent listeners that have
decided to bring the topic to the mother and now.
And now we're at the end of a very cool episode that's a
(37:46):
little different than our norm. But honestly, do we have a norm?
No, we. Don't.
We don't. But I will tell you the one
thing we do do we'll bring in sexy back.
Yeah. Totally.
OK, Hong Kong. But listen, we remember at the
beginning episodes where I used to constantly upset about your
ass, like obsessed. Yeah.
Remember those days? I know.
(38:08):
And then we got to know each other and it plotted.
OK Anyway, dude, I love you. I love you too.
So you want to know what else? I know it to be true?
What's that love? Unless we tell them otherwise.
That every Wednesday there's going to be a new episode of our
podcast. Yes.
(38:28):
Unless told otherwise, that's absolutely the case.
You hear what I said? Isn't that like teacher's pet?
I said that and. Then you said it.
You did. Any who, I just want to say this
has been a delightful episode and I love you Savannah.
Oh, I love you too, Julie. Oh, so bye for now.
(38:51):
Until next time, you can find meon Facebook at Savannah Hawk or
at Living with Cross Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah
Hawk. Remember, that's HAUK and to
learn more, go to my website livingwithcrossdressing.com.
And you can find me on Instagramand Facebook at Fox and Hangar
(39:12):
or at Julie MTF Style, as well as on our website at
foxandhangar.com. Julie, it's your moment.
The Fox and the Phoenix podcast uses Spotify for creators.
Copyright 2025. Yes, nailed it.
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