June 25, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode, Julie shares with Savannah a recent client experience that highlighted the need for the trans-expansive partner to always remember their significant one while they, themselves, are going through their own journey of discovery. Julie and Savannah discuss what its like for partners to feel left out and left behind, all the time knowing that each partner can feel seen and heard in tandem ... knowing each can share center stage under the spotlight.
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Hey Julie, you look gorgeous
today. First of all, we discussed this
at the top of the episode. I feel very first of all, I'm in
(00:49):
beige with screams. Crisis, right?
Like crisis. Sorry.
I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing at.
You. So I just like, and then the
nails, the nails I chose, the acrylics are a nude for me
color. So I feel very natural, like a
natural woman. But color and patterns are my
(01:12):
thing. And right now I guess I'm just
going through a period where I don't want to think.
I don't want to put extra effortinto clothing.
I don't want that extra stimuli.It's really interesting when
these things come about. I got four of these cotton black
throw it on dresses like day dresses.
I want to Steve Jobs this bitch I mean I don't want to think
(01:35):
about anything extra beyond my business at this time like
nothing else. My family brand me yes of.
Course of. Course shout out to Scott if
you're listening Hey, Hon. Oh, it took.
It only took you four years. All right, listen.
So. But basically, yeah, I'm feeling
OK, like I'm in a change period of my life.
(01:58):
And I can relate to crossdressers when they stop
wanting to dress because all thestimulus and all the color and
the thought process, I can't what to wear.
I can't imagine I can right now,really.
You're in it, you're in it doingit.
And I'll even say this, what you're going through right now
and what you mentioned about crossdressers who put it away
for a bit because they're just not in the mood.
(02:20):
I could say the same thing for when I dress male mode because
I'm always hearing the opinion or complaint that I put way more
effort into Savannah than I do to Chuck.
And like you said earlier, it's like I just want to throw
something on. I don't want to think about it.
I just want it to be don't make me go through any more brain
cells than I need to put on a wardrobe after I shower.
(02:43):
And that's me. That's me.
A pair of jeans and a graphic tee and I'm out the door.
I'm that's not as much effort asI put into my mail wardrobe
because 1. I don't need to 2 I don't want
to and three and three it still makes me happy.
Right. And the truth is I'm feeling a
little pandemicy, if you will, because a lot of my business is
(03:07):
virtual, right? And I'm not to say I'm not going
to show up for the peeps, because I will.
Which you do. Which you do.
I saw you the other day. I saw you the other day and you
were like. So yes, and a large is the bull.
Pop a lip. Never forget it, ladies.
But the truth of the matter is like I used to get so much such
a high from going to work when Iworked at the preschool, putting
(03:31):
on the outfits and just feeling the vibes between myself and
someone else. I love color.
I love how that felt. Right now I'm in a very
introspective time, if that makes sense.
It's almost like I'm, I don't know, I'm in it.
And so anything extra, like extra meaning I used to change
(03:52):
three times in the morning before I hit that perfect
combination. Like I'm an artist, you know
what I mean? It would help to do some meal
prep, do it, all that stuff. And I also don't like my
clothes, so there's that. We all go through these phases,
right? So.
And so, yes. So anyway, yeah, phases,
anything. Speaking of, I don't like my
clothes, so there's that. Yeah, I have a topic today.
(04:14):
Oh, but can I throw in one thingbefore?
We go please, please. Super, super, super awesome
shout out. Last weekend, some lovely people
that I've been at Keystone and at the Atlanta Comfort
Conference came into town. Becky and Nikki were driving up
from we from Florida to Charleston and there they have
(04:35):
an event there and then they had2-3 days in between.
So they said, oh, we're going tobe in the Greenville area.
So we're just going to get an Airbnb and we'll hang out with
you for the weekend. And then Jolene and Nicole,
they're coming up from Atlanta and they're like, hey, we want
to do that too. Our son is in the area.
So I thought I was going to side.
(04:55):
I thought I was, oh, you're going to see them and then be
also. And it was more like, no, we
came to see you the entire last weekend was amazing time,
amazing conversation, wonderful food, not overdone.
Like we didn't spend 8 hours on the go.
We were sitting and eating and then we go to a different
restaurant and have dessert. And then the next night we had
(05:18):
Mexican and we're out there under an umbrella table on the
promenade area and we just hung out for hours and just had an
amazing time together. I'm going to post soon some
pics. Just got some Savannah time in.
I got some Chuck time with them and Savannah time in with them.
So it, it just, it just lifted me up.
(05:39):
And right now for anybody who's into prayer, Judy's going
through a tough go with her mom at the moment.
So if anybody would like to justsay a little prayer for her and
her mom and for everything to go, wow, that'd be awesome.
And having everybody come into town lifted me up a little bit.
I was in a little heaviness, kind of like what you're going
(06:00):
through, but different, just emotional heaviness.
And with Troy back into myself because worried about Judy here
by myself with the dogs and the stresses of every day, plus the
stresses of everything else. So it was nice to have them in
time to raise my spirits and just have some community and
friendship and amazingness. So so shout out to all them for
(06:20):
making my weekend perfect. Yes, that's so healing.
It's so healing, especially during a time like Judy's been
gone for a while. Her family or where your
thoughts and prayers are going is not next door.
It must feel lonely at times. And we all know about the angst
that come from taking on your partner's stress and her pain is
(06:44):
your pain and the worry and the wanting to be there for her.
So I just want to say I'm thinking of you.
And yeah, thoughts and prayers. Thank you.
Thank you. Appreciate it.
All right. So my apologies.
No apologies, obviously I want to hear from you and what you're
doing. So never apologize for your
shopping. It will be like, hey, my turn
(07:05):
because it's all good. And I just, I just love you
love. You too thank.
You so did the peoples, and the interesting thing about that is
my Segway had nothing to do withthe top.
So it's all. All good.
It's all all good. OK, awesome.
Basically the topic came to be because as I am continuing to
(07:29):
live my dream and do these lookbooks and connect with
different people, I was given the opportunity to someone
booked a lookbook that was actually the spouse of the
client I did a lookbook for prior.
So this is for a CIS woman then?This is for CIS woman and I had
(07:53):
kind of mentioned it to them as being something that really
warms my heart and we'll discusstoday why it's so important.
But basically it was this kind gesture that this trans woman
did for her spouse, purchased this love book in her honor.
(08:16):
And it really just reminded me how important the work that I do
is for not just the trans folk and the crossdressers, those who
identify as crossdressers, but for the whole family.
So when I work with teenagers, Idon't just work with the teen.
It is very much a collaborative experience with the parents,
(08:39):
with the child. And I find so often that
especially if the crossdresser or transgender individual is
using their partner in a way fora reference point or that's the
struggle, it involves the spousetoo in the process just being
along for the ride. But they never really get to.
(09:00):
Rarely did they get to star themselves in their own
lookbook. And so the topic today is the
idea as a biological female, when your significant other
comes out as a trans female reveals they're cross dressing
to you. It often can turn into not for
(09:21):
everyone, but often can turn into the biological female, the
significant other taking a backseat when it comes to their
own feminine expression. It involves them taking a real
look at themselves, whether it be through comparison or feeling
like, oh, I was I was the woman that got to get all dressed up
for the boy. And now it's evened out and I
(09:43):
have to share some of that. Now, everything around
femininity, I feel like revolvesaround this one partner and
their experience. And as a significant other,
being, quote, good at your job consists of being able to
support this person with clothesand opinions and love and all
that. But what about us?
Or what about the significant other that really maybe had an
(10:06):
interest and a desire to dress, and now it's just been numbed
out through this other heightened idea of dressing?
So yeah, I know I said a lot, but I'd love to hear your
thoughts. It's a great topic because we
don't say enough about the Essosin our work unless we have
somebody who is an Esso or a story like this.
(10:27):
So the one thing that you said was really interesting that
stood out to me was two things. One, that everything suddenly
revolves around this heightened expression of femininity from
somebody who is not the femininepartner.
And then two, trying to to sharethat limelight.
Dude, I've spent my entire life being a woman and getting
(10:48):
comfortable with who I am, my identity, what makes me feel
most feminine, whether it's athleisure or a baggy sweatshirt
or dressing up or nails or getting your eyebrows did or
your hair or whatever. The thing that makes you feel
most you. All of a sudden you find
yourself in competition with somebody else who is also doing
(11:11):
their damnedest to be the most them, them and it.
It's almost like just compare, contrast.
It's do you want me to look likethat?
Because that's the way you want to look.
You want me to be wearing more leather skirts and high heels?
Right, the comparison, Yeah, the.
Comparison and then contrasting against your own nature.
(11:33):
I'm saying that, well a minute ago I was a good enough female
and all of a sudden I get this reveal going.
Oh shit, am I not enough female?Right, right, it's right.
It's so much. And even when it comes down to
seeing someone like me, having someone hunt online, having them
(11:55):
shop for them, put outfits together that would look great.
This whole experience was started for SIS individuals, and
then the trans piece became clear because there's such a
need. But also being able to dress and
put things on that look great inyour body, that's something for
a female, a biological female isvery important and that's
(12:19):
something that not a lot of people know how to dress for
their body. There is the rumor or the idea
that women just know because they already have these things.
They don't. It's very complicated, very
complex. So being able to provide a
service like I have with such specific individualized
attention when it comes to theirfemininity.
(12:40):
And we know femininity can be a spectrum, right?
It could be for them a baseball hat, jeans, and it could be
whatever it is. The point is, is spending focus
and attention when it comes to shopping and clothes.
Suddenly they're moved into the front and center position of
having it be about them and not about their significant other.
(13:03):
That suddenly having this secondadolescence and having this pink
fog. It's really interesting when I
think about the timeline for when someone finds out that they
have a cross dressing individualthat they're dating or when they
find out 40 years later after they've been married.
Like it, it must have such kind of different reactions.
(13:25):
I think in this specific case, it could be someone who's just
coming to realize this or is thepartner at a hunch about then
they were just kind of unfurling, right?
And they're saying, OK, how could I support you?
Or they're in therapy or whatever it is.
I think it's important to bring it back to the SIS partner.
Agreed, and I love what you said.
(13:46):
I'm writing down some notes so Idon't forget the one thing that
we've run across many times frombeing the gender expansive
partner saying, oh, please help me, help me do my makeup.
I don't know what I'm doing. Help me.
And they're like, I don't know, I have to makeup.
You actually do makeup better than I do.
So the idea that women already come prepackaged with this
(14:06):
software update that you know everything at one about the
shape and what works best for your shape.
Rumors. Rumors.
Lies. All the Yeah.
And us as the biological male counterparts thinking you know
all that or that you had years to, well, I know you've eight
years of practice if that was your choice.
Some girls love getting all the makeup when they're 12 years old
(14:28):
and they're just like purple Bowman by 14.
They're YouTube influencers because they know everything
about everything when it comes to makeup.
Whereas other ones, that's not their thing.
They don't have a passion for it, but they may have passion
for stylish clothes that don't involve makeup necessarily.
Or they have something that they're drawn to that draws her
femininity. Could be just a ball cap AT
(14:49):
shirt and some baggy jeans and call it good.
All those are parts of femininity because it brings you
joy in that way. Right.
We know what we are, how we identify.
There was no confusion when we were born.
So we just are female. We just are.
And I would say that with the exception of this TikTok
tutorial over makeup era we're in, many girls didn't really
(15:12):
know how to do these things thatI think the cross dressing
individual believes. They just know because they got
the memo, they got the software update.
But the truth of the matter is Ididn't have a mom that taught me
this. I had a friend that taught me
and it was like the wrong way because when she said do up your
eyes, she I had myself lying theinside and the outside and made
my eyes look smaller, like the opposite of what I wanted.
(15:35):
So it just took trial and error.It reminds me as I'm listening
to you of that time where I was going to come visit you and you
were shocked that I said like, well, you know how to do your
makeup better than I ever will or ever.
Like what? Like wait, what?
Right. And I was all for it.
We never got around to it, but anytime you want, we'll do that,
(15:56):
right? And actually, just as an aside,
my friend Dottie. Oh yeah, Dottie.
That I met years ago. Her career was about nursing,
you know, nursing babies and andbeing a mother.
She was the 1st to tell me stories about how so many women
having their first child have noclue how to raise a child, how
(16:17):
to have an infant latch on to them, and what happens if they
don't latch on right away. So there's not an intuitiveness
to be in a female or a male or anew mother.
These things, we all assume thatit's just comes naturally to us,
but there's so many things that do not.
And if you don't have, like you said, a mother who taught you
how to do makeup or taught you the right way to do makeup for
(16:38):
you, or you don't have a mother on site or an auntie on site,
that's like, I got 12 kids. I can show you all the different
tips and tricks of how to have ababy latch on and how to swaddle
them and how to do XYZ. You're not gonna get that
tutorial from the hospital. They're gonna send you home with
a little new baby back here. You go out the door with you and
(16:59):
you're not going to get that level of care and or education
that happens across the board. But we always seem to attach and
latch on to the idea that, oh, you're this type of person or
you're that type of person, so you must know how to do the
thing. Right, right.
So I think that there's a lot ofpressure on the significant
(17:21):
other to choose to be, quote, good or bad, which we both know
it's not binary like that. There's a lot of Grays and
there's a lot of different feelings that can come up.
And if you're OK with something,then suddenly you're not OK.
And the word divorce is out of their mouth.
Things ebb and flow. The truth of the matter is, is
there's a New Girl in town, there's another female in your
(17:41):
relationship that you have this binary choice.
I could be good at this, are badat this, or at least that's the
pressure. The pressure we put on
ourselves. There's this idea that every
time they ask me if something looks good, I need to respond
even though I'm fucking tired and I don't want to.
I remember the days where I could just go shopping for me
(18:02):
and just be alone. But now I feel pressured to be
good at this and invite my spouse with them.
All those pressures that may or may not exist for the listeners.
Some may be true, some may not be true.
The truth of the banner is when we think about the amount of
time this is significant other spends before the coming out on
(18:24):
however they want to show up in the world because they just wake
up and they're already ready right then they're given this
information at some stage that well, my husband wants to be
feminine and wants to express femininity and it's suddenly Oh
my God, like the panic sets in of I would have known I would
have saved it this time. You know what I mean?
Or like, appreciate more something.
(18:46):
Something keeps on running through my head.
And this is based on some conversations I've had with
significant others. But it also comes from a place
of trying my hardest to put myself in the shoes of the
significant other, however hard that is.
Because it's not my experience but some stuff that would come
up for me. Yeah, agreed.
(19:06):
And or a question to ask you if you can share.
Was there a central theme of whythe significant other was
looking for a look? Book, That's a great question.
So I had completed the look bookfor the spouse and I had just
mentioned it as I was actually as I was trying to figure out
(19:27):
some topic ideas. To be quite honest, the idea
came from this essence of what about us?
What about the idea of sharing the space with the genderqueer,
feminine leaning person and surround that person like the
sun in terms of dressing and shopping on all this kind of
stuff? I didn't say this decline it,
(19:48):
but basically recommended it on behalf of it being really
special, on behalf of. I had forgotten how much I love
doing these kind of lookbooks because it matters and it's
important. And they were just like,
absolutely, I'll do anything. I love this person so much.
Yeah. And it was so kind.
Yeah, and that brings up a different point.
(20:11):
Sometimes when we get wholly enveloped in our femininity and
we're going through that pink fog that you had mentioned
earlier and it becomes very selfcentric and self-centered.
And all we see is our own present and future, our partners
still there. While we may have an inference
that we know they're supporting us, that knowledge, while
(20:34):
amazing in and of itself, is also forgetting they are
important too and they need loveand they need to be put center,
put center stage. You can both share the stage,
but sometimes we leave our significant others in the
audience because we want to spotlight and we finally have
the spotlight and we finally deserve the spotlight.
(20:54):
But by that want to need and desire, we forget that our
partner deserves it just as much, if not more.
Yeah. And just the dynamic depending
on when the individual, if they're socially transitioning,
if this is a kind of a part timething, the dynamic changes in
terms of date night maybe, or interms of just in terms of a lot
(21:18):
of different things. Suddenly the significant other
is on guard in a way that she wasn't on guard before.
She could relax because she knewthat Herman quote quote was on
guard or she felt protected in that way.
Now going out, it feels vulnerable together.
There feels an extra added senseof alarm, if you will.
(21:40):
Also, the idea style is very personal, right?
And so they may not be in alignment, but like your
hemline, as you've experienced. And there's this idea of let me
be me and we're two different people and I'm going to go out
like this, whether you like it or not.
That comment, yes, there sounds like there's some teenage
rebellion even after I said it, but there's really a high sense
(22:04):
of self and a self esteem to know that I am good, I am good,
I've done this for a while, I'm good.
But in the beginning, often the cross dressing individual, as
you know, will look at their partner in terms of their eyes.
Their eyes are my eyes. Their heart is my heart.
If they're comfortable, like with you with the panties, about
(22:24):
how Judy wasn't comfortable in the beginning with you wearing
female underwear and so you didn't do it.
What she wanted is super plain. She wanted to seem as least
feminine as possible to get usedto it, yeah.
So, right, to get used to it andhow the story goes is the shift
was just you with some confidence and she was no big
deal and you just went about your normal lives.
(22:45):
I think getting back at the topic at hand, I don't know.
I know that this topic is important to me.
I know it's something that warmsmy heart whenever I can interact
or connect or support significant others.
Not to say that they have a sorry case, Not to say that, oh,
I feel bad for you. You have all these negatives
because there is equal positivesin my mind for sure.
(23:07):
That being said, it is grief. It is changed.
There's a lot of societal projections that come up.
There's a lot of heightened stuff with the government right
now. There's there's just a lot of
stuff that that lays heavy over this female experience that they
were born into, if that makes sense.
Absolutely. I have a funny anecdote from the
(23:30):
weekend. It is about the cross dressing
and the Esso experience. We all show up on Saturday.
I brought Savannah in a bag, a little duffel so that we go out
during the day all in mail mode and then.
Duffel. And a duffel, she's in Savannah
and a bag. So we go out during the day,
went to a Greek festival and we took a tour of the Greek
(23:50):
Orthodox Church and got the guided tour.
And that we're out having EUR and we're like, it's hot.
We want to go back to the Airbnb.
So we did. So we hung out and a couple
people decided to take naps and the rest of us hung out, talked
and just enjoyed each other's company.
And so I can't remember his before or after, but I was like,
hey, I wanted to show you how tight I could pack my makeup
(24:14):
because I only brought a little carry on that unfolds.
You know, yeah, yeah. So so then Nikki and Jolene go
grab theirs. So all three of us throw our
travel makeup cases on the kitchen countertop and we're all
like all pointing out everythingwe've brought and what we did
and look what I have and oh lookwhat I have and look what this
(24:35):
oh and I use this oh really I have this thing and we're all
like 3 little girls in male modestill just chirping away about
how. My God.
We're about our little travel makeup.
In male mode all. Of you in male mode.
And so Jolene's wife is sitting on the couch with her hand just,
like out on her cheek and forehead.
(24:56):
And Becky is actually taking pictures of us.
And so I look over there and I'mlike, are you OK And everything
good? She's like, this is so surreal
because I'm used to my man beingunder the hood of a car or the
hood of a. Truck and to.
See him doing this with you 2 and you're all just super
excited and passionate and like giddy about showing your makeup
(25:18):
to each other. She's like, this is so surreal.
I never expected this to be my life.
And she said it, it it was, and she said it very good.
Naturally, I can't wrap my brainaround this this second.
I mean, that's like the matrix, like that's poetry for me.
Like I'm glowing. I'm fucking glowing because that
is so rare. That moment it was.
(25:39):
And I understand why the spouse was just like Oh my God, this is
not real because yeah, male presentation represents one side
of it and the. Or the side you've come
accustomed to for your man, Right, right.
So it's just just like I, I can't believe my husband is
(25:59):
giddy about showing you with their makeup that they got
versus the building a fence or repairing a car or fixing
something. And this is just a whole other
facet of what that looks like. Right.
And the story in my head that I came to the table with is a
significant other and their spouse is trans female going
through transition, which is wholly different than a cross
(26:23):
dressing the individual that hasdual sides, a male and a female
with the expression. And both are interesting and
both support the topic at hand. Just the fact you could get all
girly without anything that makes you feel like that is your
girl them that is your femininity.
That just knocks it off The you know, that just proves my point
(26:46):
that femininity is beyond all the clothes and it's in essence,
it's something that comes out inyou.
And there's nothing more amazingthan being with some friends
because you're not going to geekout over sports.
You're not going to. Well, we might.
Still, I mean, we might still ifthat's in our repertoire.
I mean, not to be all stereotypical.
This is so amazing. Oh, I loved it.
(27:06):
It was great. And just to recognize what
Jolene's wife was doing and she told us how she is feeling about
it and she's like just the surrealness of it and what I'm
used to. And now I'm seeing this and just
knowing that the things are different and opened up and
expansive. And like you said, feeling girly
without presenting girly is a whole new thing for me because
(27:29):
like you said, I wouldn't do that by myself or even I was
talking to somebody on the phoneor through text.
That's not going to give you that energetic emotional quality
that we all had to get. We're just so just like on point
about this makeup and how we traveled.
I wish you would have told me this yesterday.
We would have started with this story.
No. Yeah.
(27:50):
It reminds me a lot about like when you meet friends that
you've had since middle school or high school and then you go
back right to where you left off, which maybe where you left
off is your 15 year old self. Just like geeking out it.
It's just almost like an imprinton someone's heart where you
just can easily tap back in and put your thumb there and it just
(28:11):
opens and you just needed a creative femme inspiration to
light that feminine match and bein it.
Yeah, absolutely. Your makeup bag to be in it.
Again, that's the thing. That's the heart of this
episode. The take away.
The take away. Access that femininity without
anything, just simply based on whatever it is.
(28:34):
And just having that commonality, and that's not our
only commonality. We are fully friends.
You've met them at Keystone. We are not just people who'd
happen to share cross dressing as our one common thread.
We obviously we all got togetherbecause we're friends with each
other. And the one thing I wrote down
that you had mentioned, that anecdote really was about also
(28:57):
second adolescence. We were like 3 teenage girls,
like exactly. And that was just something new
for Jolene's wife to be like what is going on?
This is not something I'm used to, but being very much a part
of it, which was amazing in and of itself.
Yeah, that's a beautiful, a beautiful moment.
So, you know, whatever you really get out of this episode,
(29:21):
I know it. For me, it felt like a layered
Mexican dip, but I just kept on going back and eating and eating
and eating. And the eating is me talking by
the by. Oh, OK.
You know, it was important to meand what I want us all to take
away from this, especially if you're listening to your CIS
significant other, is the idea there's, like you said, there's
(29:41):
room for both on the stage and sometimes, just sometimes baby
doesn't want to be in the corner, you know, like.
Yeah, and nobody puts baby in the corner.
No. And I think that's true for
both. We as gender expansive men felt
like we've been put in a corner for so long that any, any
cracking of opening of that door, we like rush through it a
(30:02):
lot of the times. And it's all about freedom,
freedom, freedom. That is our want to not be put
in a corner. And also our partners don't
deserve to be put in a corner asa result of our needs to have
our freedom. Right.
And as you often do when it comes to your sexual preference
or your gender expression, you check in with yourself.
(30:24):
I think it's really important the cross dressing individual or
the trans individual, however you identify, no matter how
smooth your Rd. is going, no matter how in step the two of
you seem, every couple months just check in and say hey I'm
just wondering how you're feeling about this cross
dressing stuff or how you're feeling.
I'm just wondering is there anything I can do to support you
(30:47):
and have you feel better like a?Princess.
Like a Princess or simply just check in and be like, I just
want to say thank you so much for honoring me as a cross
dressing individual. You had the choice not to and
you did, and I really appreciateit.
Yeah, we all love and deserve validation, so absolutely,
that's it. Everyone.
Everyone does. Absolutely, Absolutely.
(31:09):
Yeah, so especially you, I love you and.
I love you too. Thank you.
Yeah, and please text me the picture of all the boys gathered
around. Oh.
Yeah, I'll do that now as we're wrapping up.
I will send that to you now so Idon't forget.
So I just want to say thank you so much for joining us.
(31:33):
I mean, also, while Savannah is distracted, I want to do a
shameless plug. Please, please, please go on
Amazon.com and check out all Savannah's books.
They are amazing. You can read an e-book or you
can listen to an e-book, but when it comes to, you know, eyes
to paper underlining stuff, these books are really a Bible
(31:54):
when it comes to filling in someof the blanks.
And yeah, so I just want to givethat some love.
I hope everyone has a safe and healthy and happy week and bye
for now. And thank you so much for the
Shameless blog. And until next time, you can
(32:16):
find me on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross
Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember that's HAUK. And to learn more, go to my
website livingwithcrossdressing.com.
And you can find me on Instagramand Facebook at Fox and Hangar
or at Julie MTF Style, as well as on our website at
(32:37):
foxandhangar.com. Julie, it's your moment.
The Fox and the Phoenix podcast uses Spotify for creators.
Copyright 2025. Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Hey Julie, you look gorgeous
today. First of all, we discussed this
at the top of the episode. I feel very first of all, I'm in
(00:49):
beige with screams. Crisis, right?
Like crisis. Sorry.
I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing at.
You. So I just like, and then the
nails, the nails I chose, the acrylics are a nude for me
color. So I feel very natural, like a
natural woman. But color and patterns are my
(01:12):
thing. And right now I guess I'm just
going through a period where I don't want to think.
I don't want to put extra effortinto clothing.
I don't want that extra stimuli.It's really interesting when
these things come about. I got four of these cotton black
throw it on dresses like day dresses.
I want to Steve Jobs this bitch I mean I don't want to think
(01:35):
about anything extra beyond my business at this time like
nothing else. My family brand me yes of.
Course of. Course shout out to Scott if
you're listening Hey, Hon. Oh, it took.
It only took you four years. All right, listen.
So. But basically, yeah, I'm feeling
OK, like I'm in a change period of my life.
(01:58):
And I can relate to crossdressers when they stop
wanting to dress because all thestimulus and all the color and
the thought process, I can't what to wear.
I can't imagine I can right now,really.
You're in it, you're in it doingit.
And I'll even say this, what you're going through right now
and what you mentioned about crossdressers who put it away
for a bit because they're just not in the mood.
(02:20):
I could say the same thing for when I dress male mode because
I'm always hearing the opinion or complaint that I put way more
effort into Savannah than I do to Chuck.
And like you said earlier, it's like I just want to throw
something on. I don't want to think about it.
I just want it to be don't make me go through any more brain
cells than I need to put on a wardrobe after I shower.
(02:43):
And that's me. That's me.
A pair of jeans and a graphic tee and I'm out the door.
I'm that's not as much effort asI put into my mail wardrobe
because 1. I don't need to 2 I don't want
to and three and three it still makes me happy.
Right. And the truth is I'm feeling a
little pandemicy, if you will, because a lot of my business is
(03:07):
virtual, right? And I'm not to say I'm not going
to show up for the peeps, because I will.
Which you do. Which you do.
I saw you the other day. I saw you the other day and you
were like. So yes, and a large is the bull.
Pop a lip. Never forget it, ladies.
But the truth of the matter is like I used to get so much such
a high from going to work when Iworked at the preschool, putting
(03:31):
on the outfits and just feeling the vibes between myself and
someone else. I love color.
I love how that felt. Right now I'm in a very
introspective time, if that makes sense.
It's almost like I'm, I don't know, I'm in it.
And so anything extra, like extra meaning I used to change
(03:52):
three times in the morning before I hit that perfect
combination. Like I'm an artist, you know
what I mean? It would help to do some meal
prep, do it, all that stuff. And I also don't like my
clothes, so there's that. We all go through these phases,
right? So.
And so, yes. So anyway, yeah, phases,
anything. Speaking of, I don't like my
clothes, so there's that. Yeah, I have a topic today.
(04:14):
Oh, but can I throw in one thingbefore?
We go please, please. Super, super, super awesome
shout out. Last weekend, some lovely people
that I've been at Keystone and at the Atlanta Comfort
Conference came into town. Becky and Nikki were driving up
from we from Florida to Charleston and there they have
(04:35):
an event there and then they had2-3 days in between.
So they said, oh, we're going tobe in the Greenville area.
So we're just going to get an Airbnb and we'll hang out with
you for the weekend. And then Jolene and Nicole,
they're coming up from Atlanta and they're like, hey, we want
to do that too. Our son is in the area.
So I thought I was going to side.
(04:55):
I thought I was, oh, you're going to see them and then be
also. And it was more like, no, we
came to see you the entire last weekend was amazing time,
amazing conversation, wonderful food, not overdone.
Like we didn't spend 8 hours on the go.
We were sitting and eating and then we go to a different
restaurant and have dessert. And then the next night we had
(05:18):
Mexican and we're out there under an umbrella table on the
promenade area and we just hung out for hours and just had an
amazing time together. I'm going to post soon some
pics. Just got some Savannah time in.
I got some Chuck time with them and Savannah time in with them.
So it, it just, it just lifted me up.
(05:39):
And right now for anybody who's into prayer, Judy's going
through a tough go with her mom at the moment.
So if anybody would like to justsay a little prayer for her and
her mom and for everything to go, wow, that'd be awesome.
And having everybody come into town lifted me up a little bit.
I was in a little heaviness, kind of like what you're going
(06:00):
through, but different, just emotional heaviness.
And with Troy back into myself because worried about Judy here
by myself with the dogs and the stresses of every day, plus the
stresses of everything else. So it was nice to have them in
time to raise my spirits and just have some community and
friendship and amazingness. So so shout out to all them for
(06:20):
making my weekend perfect. Yes, that's so healing.
It's so healing, especially during a time like Judy's been
gone for a while. Her family or where your
thoughts and prayers are going is not next door.
It must feel lonely at times. And we all know about the angst
that come from taking on your partner's stress and her pain is
(06:44):
your pain and the worry and the wanting to be there for her.
So I just want to say I'm thinking of you.
And yeah, thoughts and prayers. Thank you.
Thank you. Appreciate it.
All right. So my apologies.
No apologies, obviously I want to hear from you and what you're
doing. So never apologize for your
shopping. It will be like, hey, my turn
(07:05):
because it's all good. And I just, I just love you
love. You too thank.
You so did the peoples, and the interesting thing about that is
my Segway had nothing to do withthe top.
So it's all. All good.
It's all all good. OK, awesome.
Basically the topic came to be because as I am continuing to
(07:29):
live my dream and do these lookbooks and connect with
different people, I was given the opportunity to someone
booked a lookbook that was actually the spouse of the
client I did a lookbook for prior.
So this is for a CIS woman then?This is for CIS woman and I had
(07:53):
kind of mentioned it to them as being something that really
warms my heart and we'll discusstoday why it's so important.
But basically it was this kind gesture that this trans woman
did for her spouse, purchased this love book in her honor.
(08:16):
And it really just reminded me how important the work that I do
is for not just the trans folk and the crossdressers, those who
identify as crossdressers, but for the whole family.
So when I work with teenagers, Idon't just work with the teen.
It is very much a collaborative experience with the parents,
(08:39):
with the child. And I find so often that
especially if the crossdresser or transgender individual is
using their partner in a way fora reference point or that's the
struggle, it involves the spousetoo in the process just being
along for the ride. But they never really get to.
(09:00):
Rarely did they get to star themselves in their own
lookbook. And so the topic today is the
idea as a biological female, when your significant other
comes out as a trans female reveals they're cross dressing
to you. It often can turn into not for
(09:21):
everyone, but often can turn into the biological female, the
significant other taking a backseat when it comes to their
own feminine expression. It involves them taking a real
look at themselves, whether it be through comparison or feeling
like, oh, I was I was the woman that got to get all dressed up
for the boy. And now it's evened out and I
(09:43):
have to share some of that. Now, everything around
femininity, I feel like revolvesaround this one partner and
their experience. And as a significant other,
being, quote, good at your job consists of being able to
support this person with clothesand opinions and love and all
that. But what about us?
Or what about the significant other that really maybe had an
(10:06):
interest and a desire to dress, and now it's just been numbed
out through this other heightened idea of dressing?
So yeah, I know I said a lot, but I'd love to hear your
thoughts. It's a great topic because we
don't say enough about the Essosin our work unless we have
somebody who is an Esso or a story like this.
(10:27):
So the one thing that you said was really interesting that
stood out to me was two things. One, that everything suddenly
revolves around this heightened expression of femininity from
somebody who is not the femininepartner.
And then two, trying to to sharethat limelight.
Dude, I've spent my entire life being a woman and getting
(10:48):
comfortable with who I am, my identity, what makes me feel
most feminine, whether it's athleisure or a baggy sweatshirt
or dressing up or nails or getting your eyebrows did or
your hair or whatever. The thing that makes you feel
most you. All of a sudden you find
yourself in competition with somebody else who is also doing
(11:11):
their damnedest to be the most them, them and it.
It's almost like just compare, contrast.
It's do you want me to look likethat?
Because that's the way you want to look.
You want me to be wearing more leather skirts and high heels?
Right, the comparison, Yeah, the.
Comparison and then contrasting against your own nature.
(11:33):
I'm saying that, well a minute ago I was a good enough female
and all of a sudden I get this reveal going.
Oh shit, am I not enough female?Right, right, it's right.
It's so much. And even when it comes down to
seeing someone like me, having someone hunt online, having them
(11:55):
shop for them, put outfits together that would look great.
This whole experience was started for SIS individuals, and
then the trans piece became clear because there's such a
need. But also being able to dress and
put things on that look great inyour body, that's something for
a female, a biological female isvery important and that's
(12:19):
something that not a lot of people know how to dress for
their body. There is the rumor or the idea
that women just know because they already have these things.
They don't. It's very complicated, very
complex. So being able to provide a
service like I have with such specific individualized
attention when it comes to theirfemininity.
(12:40):
And we know femininity can be a spectrum, right?
It could be for them a baseball hat, jeans, and it could be
whatever it is. The point is, is spending focus
and attention when it comes to shopping and clothes.
Suddenly they're moved into the front and center position of
having it be about them and not about their significant other.
(13:03):
That suddenly having this secondadolescence and having this pink
fog. It's really interesting when I
think about the timeline for when someone finds out that they
have a cross dressing individualthat they're dating or when they
find out 40 years later after they've been married.
Like it, it must have such kind of different reactions.
(13:25):
I think in this specific case, it could be someone who's just
coming to realize this or is thepartner at a hunch about then
they were just kind of unfurling, right?
And they're saying, OK, how could I support you?
Or they're in therapy or whatever it is.
I think it's important to bring it back to the SIS partner.
Agreed, and I love what you said.
(13:46):
I'm writing down some notes so Idon't forget the one thing that
we've run across many times frombeing the gender expansive
partner saying, oh, please help me, help me do my makeup.
I don't know what I'm doing. Help me.
And they're like, I don't know, I have to makeup.
You actually do makeup better than I do.
So the idea that women already come prepackaged with this
(14:06):
software update that you know everything at one about the
shape and what works best for your shape.
Rumors. Rumors.
Lies. All the Yeah.
And us as the biological male counterparts thinking you know
all that or that you had years to, well, I know you've eight
years of practice if that was your choice.
Some girls love getting all the makeup when they're 12 years old
(14:28):
and they're just like purple Bowman by 14.
They're YouTube influencers because they know everything
about everything when it comes to makeup.
Whereas other ones, that's not their thing.
They don't have a passion for it, but they may have passion
for stylish clothes that don't involve makeup necessarily.
Or they have something that they're drawn to that draws her
femininity. Could be just a ball cap AT
(14:49):
shirt and some baggy jeans and call it good.
All those are parts of femininity because it brings you
joy in that way. Right.
We know what we are, how we identify.
There was no confusion when we were born.
So we just are female. We just are.
And I would say that with the exception of this TikTok
tutorial over makeup era we're in, many girls didn't really
(15:12):
know how to do these things thatI think the cross dressing
individual believes. They just know because they got
the memo, they got the software update.
But the truth of the matter is Ididn't have a mom that taught me
this. I had a friend that taught me
and it was like the wrong way because when she said do up your
eyes, she I had myself lying theinside and the outside and made
my eyes look smaller, like the opposite of what I wanted.
(15:35):
So it just took trial and error.It reminds me as I'm listening
to you of that time where I was going to come visit you and you
were shocked that I said like, well, you know how to do your
makeup better than I ever will or ever.
Like what? Like wait, what?
Right. And I was all for it.
We never got around to it, but anytime you want, we'll do that,
(15:56):
right? And actually, just as an aside,
my friend Dottie. Oh yeah, Dottie.
That I met years ago. Her career was about nursing,
you know, nursing babies and andbeing a mother.
She was the 1st to tell me stories about how so many women
having their first child have noclue how to raise a child, how
(16:17):
to have an infant latch on to them, and what happens if they
don't latch on right away. So there's not an intuitiveness
to be in a female or a male or anew mother.
These things, we all assume thatit's just comes naturally to us,
but there's so many things that do not.
And if you don't have, like you said, a mother who taught you
how to do makeup or taught you the right way to do makeup for
(16:38):
you, or you don't have a mother on site or an auntie on site,
that's like, I got 12 kids. I can show you all the different
tips and tricks of how to have ababy latch on and how to swaddle
them and how to do XYZ. You're not gonna get that
tutorial from the hospital. They're gonna send you home with
a little new baby back here. You go out the door with you and
(16:59):
you're not going to get that level of care and or education
that happens across the board. But we always seem to attach and
latch on to the idea that, oh, you're this type of person or
you're that type of person, so you must know how to do the
thing. Right, right.
So I think that there's a lot ofpressure on the significant
(17:21):
other to choose to be, quote, good or bad, which we both know
it's not binary like that. There's a lot of Grays and
there's a lot of different feelings that can come up.
And if you're OK with something,then suddenly you're not OK.
And the word divorce is out of their mouth.
Things ebb and flow. The truth of the matter is, is
there's a New Girl in town, there's another female in your
(17:41):
relationship that you have this binary choice.
I could be good at this, are badat this, or at least that's the
pressure. The pressure we put on
ourselves. There's this idea that every
time they ask me if something looks good, I need to respond
even though I'm fucking tired and I don't want to.
I remember the days where I could just go shopping for me
(18:02):
and just be alone. But now I feel pressured to be
good at this and invite my spouse with them.
All those pressures that may or may not exist for the listeners.
Some may be true, some may not be true.
The truth of the banner is when we think about the amount of
time this is significant other spends before the coming out on
(18:24):
however they want to show up in the world because they just wake
up and they're already ready right then they're given this
information at some stage that well, my husband wants to be
feminine and wants to express femininity and it's suddenly Oh
my God, like the panic sets in of I would have known I would
have saved it this time. You know what I mean?
Or like, appreciate more something.
(18:46):
Something keeps on running through my head.
And this is based on some conversations I've had with
significant others. But it also comes from a place
of trying my hardest to put myself in the shoes of the
significant other, however hard that is.
Because it's not my experience but some stuff that would come
up for me. Yeah, agreed.
(19:06):
And or a question to ask you if you can share.
Was there a central theme of whythe significant other was
looking for a look? Book, That's a great question.
So I had completed the look bookfor the spouse and I had just
mentioned it as I was actually as I was trying to figure out
(19:27):
some topic ideas. To be quite honest, the idea
came from this essence of what about us?
What about the idea of sharing the space with the genderqueer,
feminine leaning person and surround that person like the
sun in terms of dressing and shopping on all this kind of
stuff? I didn't say this decline it,
(19:48):
but basically recommended it on behalf of it being really
special, on behalf of. I had forgotten how much I love
doing these kind of lookbooks because it matters and it's
important. And they were just like,
absolutely, I'll do anything. I love this person so much.
Yeah. And it was so kind.
Yeah, and that brings up a different point.
(20:11):
Sometimes when we get wholly enveloped in our femininity and
we're going through that pink fog that you had mentioned
earlier and it becomes very selfcentric and self-centered.
And all we see is our own present and future, our partners
still there. While we may have an inference
that we know they're supporting us, that knowledge, while
(20:34):
amazing in and of itself, is also forgetting they are
important too and they need loveand they need to be put center,
put center stage. You can both share the stage,
but sometimes we leave our significant others in the
audience because we want to spotlight and we finally have
the spotlight and we finally deserve the spotlight.
(20:54):
But by that want to need and desire, we forget that our
partner deserves it just as much, if not more.
Yeah. And just the dynamic depending
on when the individual, if they're socially transitioning,
if this is a kind of a part timething, the dynamic changes in
terms of date night maybe, or interms of just in terms of a lot
(21:18):
of different things. Suddenly the significant other
is on guard in a way that she wasn't on guard before.
She could relax because she knewthat Herman quote quote was on
guard or she felt protected in that way.
Now going out, it feels vulnerable together.
There feels an extra added senseof alarm, if you will.
(21:40):
Also, the idea style is very personal, right?
And so they may not be in alignment, but like your
hemline, as you've experienced. And there's this idea of let me
be me and we're two different people and I'm going to go out
like this, whether you like it or not.
That comment, yes, there sounds like there's some teenage
rebellion even after I said it, but there's really a high sense
(22:04):
of self and a self esteem to know that I am good, I am good,
I've done this for a while, I'm good.
But in the beginning, often the cross dressing individual, as
you know, will look at their partner in terms of their eyes.
Their eyes are my eyes. Their heart is my heart.
If they're comfortable, like with you with the panties, about
(22:24):
how Judy wasn't comfortable in the beginning with you wearing
female underwear and so you didn't do it.
What she wanted is super plain. She wanted to seem as least
feminine as possible to get usedto it, yeah.
So, right, to get used to it andhow the story goes is the shift
was just you with some confidence and she was no big
deal and you just went about your normal lives.
(22:45):
I think getting back at the topic at hand, I don't know.
I know that this topic is important to me.
I know it's something that warmsmy heart whenever I can interact
or connect or support significant others.
Not to say that they have a sorry case, Not to say that, oh,
I feel bad for you. You have all these negatives
because there is equal positivesin my mind for sure.
(23:07):
That being said, it is grief. It is changed.
There's a lot of societal projections that come up.
There's a lot of heightened stuff with the government right
now. There's there's just a lot of
stuff that that lays heavy over this female experience that they
were born into, if that makes sense.
Absolutely. I have a funny anecdote from the
(23:30):
weekend. It is about the cross dressing
and the Esso experience. We all show up on Saturday.
I brought Savannah in a bag, a little duffel so that we go out
during the day all in mail mode and then.
Duffel. And a duffel, she's in Savannah
and a bag. So we go out during the day,
went to a Greek festival and we took a tour of the Greek
(23:50):
Orthodox Church and got the guided tour.
And that we're out having EUR and we're like, it's hot.
We want to go back to the Airbnb.
So we did. So we hung out and a couple
people decided to take naps and the rest of us hung out, talked
and just enjoyed each other's company.
And so I can't remember his before or after, but I was like,
hey, I wanted to show you how tight I could pack my makeup
(24:14):
because I only brought a little carry on that unfolds.
You know, yeah, yeah. So so then Nikki and Jolene go
grab theirs. So all three of us throw our
travel makeup cases on the kitchen countertop and we're all
like all pointing out everythingwe've brought and what we did
and look what I have and oh lookwhat I have and look what this
(24:35):
oh and I use this oh really I have this thing and we're all
like 3 little girls in male modestill just chirping away about
how. My God.
We're about our little travel makeup.
In male mode all. Of you in male mode.
And so Jolene's wife is sitting on the couch with her hand just,
like out on her cheek and forehead.
(24:56):
And Becky is actually taking pictures of us.
And so I look over there and I'mlike, are you OK And everything
good? She's like, this is so surreal
because I'm used to my man beingunder the hood of a car or the
hood of a. Truck and to.
See him doing this with you 2 and you're all just super
excited and passionate and like giddy about showing your makeup
(25:18):
to each other. She's like, this is so surreal.
I never expected this to be my life.
And she said it, it it was, and she said it very good.
Naturally, I can't wrap my brainaround this this second.
I mean, that's like the matrix, like that's poetry for me.
Like I'm glowing. I'm fucking glowing because that
is so rare. That moment it was.
(25:39):
And I understand why the spouse was just like Oh my God, this is
not real because yeah, male presentation represents one side
of it and the. Or the side you've come
accustomed to for your man, Right, right.
So it's just just like I, I can't believe my husband is
(25:59):
giddy about showing you with their makeup that they got
versus the building a fence or repairing a car or fixing
something. And this is just a whole other
facet of what that looks like. Right.
And the story in my head that I came to the table with is a
significant other and their spouse is trans female going
through transition, which is wholly different than a cross
(26:23):
dressing the individual that hasdual sides, a male and a female
with the expression. And both are interesting and
both support the topic at hand. Just the fact you could get all
girly without anything that makes you feel like that is your
girl them that is your femininity.
That just knocks it off The you know, that just proves my point
(26:46):
that femininity is beyond all the clothes and it's in essence,
it's something that comes out inyou.
And there's nothing more amazingthan being with some friends
because you're not going to geekout over sports.
You're not going to. Well, we might.
Still, I mean, we might still ifthat's in our repertoire.
I mean, not to be all stereotypical.
This is so amazing. Oh, I loved it.
(27:06):
It was great. And just to recognize what
Jolene's wife was doing and she told us how she is feeling about
it and she's like just the surrealness of it and what I'm
used to. And now I'm seeing this and just
knowing that the things are different and opened up and
expansive. And like you said, feeling girly
without presenting girly is a whole new thing for me because
(27:29):
like you said, I wouldn't do that by myself or even I was
talking to somebody on the phoneor through text.
That's not going to give you that energetic emotional quality
that we all had to get. We're just so just like on point
about this makeup and how we traveled.
I wish you would have told me this yesterday.
We would have started with this story.
No. Yeah.
(27:50):
It reminds me a lot about like when you meet friends that
you've had since middle school or high school and then you go
back right to where you left off, which maybe where you left
off is your 15 year old self. Just like geeking out it.
It's just almost like an imprinton someone's heart where you
just can easily tap back in and put your thumb there and it just
(28:11):
opens and you just needed a creative femme inspiration to
light that feminine match and bein it.
Yeah, absolutely. Your makeup bag to be in it.
Again, that's the thing. That's the heart of this
episode. The take away.
The take away. Access that femininity without
anything, just simply based on whatever it is.
(28:34):
And just having that commonality, and that's not our
only commonality. We are fully friends.
You've met them at Keystone. We are not just people who'd
happen to share cross dressing as our one common thread.
We obviously we all got togetherbecause we're friends with each
other. And the one thing I wrote down
that you had mentioned, that anecdote really was about also
(28:57):
second adolescence. We were like 3 teenage girls,
like exactly. And that was just something new
for Jolene's wife to be like what is going on?
This is not something I'm used to, but being very much a part
of it, which was amazing in and of itself.
Yeah, that's a beautiful, a beautiful moment.
So, you know, whatever you really get out of this episode,
(29:21):
I know it. For me, it felt like a layered
Mexican dip, but I just kept on going back and eating and eating
and eating. And the eating is me talking by
the by. Oh, OK.
You know, it was important to meand what I want us all to take
away from this, especially if you're listening to your CIS
significant other, is the idea there's, like you said, there's
(29:41):
room for both on the stage and sometimes, just sometimes baby
doesn't want to be in the corner, you know, like.
Yeah, and nobody puts baby in the corner.
No. And I think that's true for
both. We as gender expansive men felt
like we've been put in a corner for so long that any, any
cracking of opening of that door, we like rush through it a
(30:02):
lot of the times. And it's all about freedom,
freedom, freedom. That is our want to not be put
in a corner. And also our partners don't
deserve to be put in a corner asa result of our needs to have
our freedom. Right.
And as you often do when it comes to your sexual preference
or your gender expression, you check in with yourself.
(30:24):
I think it's really important the cross dressing individual or
the trans individual, however you identify, no matter how
smooth your Rd. is going, no matter how in step the two of
you seem, every couple months just check in and say hey I'm
just wondering how you're feeling about this cross
dressing stuff or how you're feeling.
I'm just wondering is there anything I can do to support you
(30:47):
and have you feel better like a?Princess.
Like a Princess or simply just check in and be like, I just
want to say thank you so much for honoring me as a cross
dressing individual. You had the choice not to and
you did, and I really appreciateit.
Yeah, we all love and deserve validation, so absolutely,
that's it. Everyone.
Everyone does. Absolutely, Absolutely.
(31:09):
Yeah, so especially you, I love you and.
I love you too. Thank you.
Yeah, and please text me the picture of all the boys gathered
around. Oh.
Yeah, I'll do that now as we're wrapping up.
I will send that to you now so Idon't forget.
So I just want to say thank you so much for joining us.
(31:33):
I mean, also, while Savannah is distracted, I want to do a
shameless plug. Please, please, please go on
Amazon.com and check out all Savannah's books.
They are amazing. You can read an e-book or you
can listen to an e-book, but when it comes to, you know, eyes
to paper underlining stuff, these books are really a Bible
(31:54):
when it comes to filling in someof the blanks.
And yeah, so I just want to givethat some love.
I hope everyone has a safe and healthy and happy week and bye
for now. And thank you so much for the
Shameless blog. And until next time, you can
(32:16):
find me on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross
Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember that's HAUK. And to learn more, go to my
website livingwithcrossdressing.com.
And you can find me on Instagramand Facebook at Fox and Hangar
or at Julie MTF Style, as well as on our website at
(32:37):
foxandhangar.com. Julie, it's your moment.
The Fox and the Phoenix podcast uses Spotify for creators.
Copyright 2025. Yes, nailed it.
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