July 2, 2025 • 38 mins
In this episode, Savannah asks Julie whether its fair that marginalized groups should need to hold themselves to a higher standard of empathy and social expectations in the face of a society that prefers to attack and marginalize those groups?
In a just world, no — it is not fair.Marginalized groups should not have to hold themselves to a higher standard of empathy or moral behavior than those who hold power or privilege. The expectation that oppressed people must be kinder, more understanding, or more patient than their oppressors is rooted in systemic inequality itself. It's an unfair double standard — one that demands emotional labor and restraint from those already burdened with discrimination, violence, and exclusion.
But in practice, many marginalized individuals feel compelled to do exactly that — to hold themselves to a higher standard — as a means of survival, resistance, or advocacy.
-----
SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
------
JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, understanding
the feminine cross dressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hey, Julie. Hi, Savannah.
How? Are you?
I'm good, I'm just crunching on my Cheetos.
Oh Cheetos are the best. I told you before we started
recording that last night I stayed up till 3:00 AM and I
(00:52):
really wanted some Cheetos. Not the lie.
So I went to my garage. I ruffled through this.
I don't know if you've ever beento Costco where they have that
box of multi flavors. It could be 50, could be 60
different little chips, right? And normally the Cheetos cling
together at some area of the box.
I don't know. They find each other, the
friends, whatever. But I couldn't find them.
(01:15):
And I was like, it was like, I was unearthing the entire box
looking for is that even a word for this?
And I was pulling them up in in handfuls and it was like,
Doritos, Doritos, burritos, burritos.
For some reason, there's no shortage of Fritos or potato
(01:35):
AAA's. Any hope Doritos, Doritos,
Doritos. I'm like, what is going on?
So I turned on the lights, whichwas a lot brighter.
Literally sifting through as I'mdoing the breast stroke, right,
sifting through, sifting through, nothing but Nacho
cheese Doritos. I'm like, this is so weird.
Normally they're like at least five.
(01:56):
Like I said, they find each other and they're like, oh,
let's hold each other because we're in the minority.
But like, I didn't see a single thing.
And I was like, this is weird. Maybe this is like a faulty box
that didn't come in with any, but that's so weird.
So today as I was getting ready for the podcast and going to the
(02:17):
fridge in the garage trying to get a a bottle of cold water
baled, I got an Izzy mango flavor.
Anywho, I turned to the box to give it a glance of you.
I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed and I and I see
this little this little bag of Cheetos be like what about me?
(02:41):
And it like made its way like outside the box till the flap
hanging on for dear life. I'm like right, I'm like
Cheetos, you do exist. So I like grabbed the Cheetos
and it was like, love me and I'mlike, I will love you and then
and I will not save you from my daughter's last week of school.
(03:01):
So I just brought it in my room like it's a like it's a teddy or
Linus's blanket. And I've just been eating from
this Cheetos thing. It's the Cheetos loves me and I
love the Cheetos. My God, I am so with you.
I have a conspiracy theory. I believe that many people share
this conspiracy theory which is in any of these variety packs
(03:22):
from Costco or Walmart. I'm with you wherever, anytime
you have more than 10 put together I swear to God it is
filled with the only one of the variety you don't want typically
is the corn chips, then it's Lay's potato chips, then it's
Doritos. The BBQ.
(03:42):
There's the BBQ. The BBQ also.
Right. Yeah.
Even subsetting the Lay's potatochips.
And if you're looking to find 2 Cheeto bags out of a 50 pack,
you're. I feel like that is some
corporation and some sinister society decided to punish us in
this way. And not unlike Del Monte canned
(04:03):
fruit cocktail as a child, I loved it.
But yet, if you had more than two cherry halves in an entire
can, you might as well just playthe lottery.
Because if you had three, you knew.
You had a whole cherry. If you have a half a cherry,
you'd be like, Oh my God, I'm not telling anyone anyone.
I'm not even showing my parents,'cause they want to rebag it and
(04:26):
put it down in the the shelter. The bottle goes both ways and be
like, oh man, 1/2 a cherry. We could survive off that for
two. Weeks.
Oh my God. Oh my God, You're bringing up
the traumatic childhood and traumatic adult memories.
OK, OK, well anywho, that was mythat's my little tidbit for the
(04:46):
day. How have you been?
I have been super busy. Last episode, I think we spoke
about how I was hanging out withmy friends who came in from
Florida and came in from Atlantaand we all joined forces to have
an amazing weekend. This past weekend, Tracy and her
husband came in. I met them at Keystone.
I met her at Keystone and they came in for the weekend
(05:08):
impromptu. Mind you, they had plans that
fell through and I'm like, hey, why don't you come visit me?
And they're like, OK, and then all of a sudden, two days later,
they're on the road coming to visit me.
And we've been painting the town.
We went to Spartanburg downtown for dinner.
We went to Greenville to see theReedy and go to a comedy show
and have a lovely dinner. And today, after this podcast,
(05:29):
who knows what lovely dinner maybring.
And they'll be heading back on Monday.
Also, I wanted to do a little shout out because you, Julie
Rubenstein and me. You.
And me Hawk were joined forces like the Wonder Twins activating
on the Maddie Taylor Show podcast.
(05:51):
Yes. So Maddie Taylor reached out to
us to either do 2 individual interviews or a join forces
interview. And we joined forces at Fox and
a Phoenix joined forces and we had our first three-way.
Yes, in power. It was very interesting.
(06:14):
First of all, she's fabulous. She is.
Yes. And she, this was her first
three-way. Was it our first three-way?
No, it was her. It was really her first.
It was the joke that it was her first three-way.
Was it ours? No, we've done things with other
people free to be she we were collectively a trail even her
engineer was on. If you want to be super, super
finicky body, sure, maybe. Yeah, we I have blast, had a
(06:36):
good time. I did too.
She's such a sweetie. She did a great job of hearing
us both like we we made a plan to take to her.
I don't know, it worked out and she did fabulous.
And if you ever want to have us on again as a pair, individual
selfie, a stranger doll face because we had a blast.
Hell to the Yizza, yes. So Speaking of hell to the
(06:58):
Yizza, like last week, I have nosegue to go with this, but topic
today is mine. And I have been agonizing, like
low key agonizing over this topic.
Not because I didn't want to broach it, but because it's been
hit my brain pan quite a bit in different ways.
Yeah, to just try to, like, set up the premise in that.
(07:19):
I've said it before that I'm notreally a Pride event goer.
I got my start in South Carolinagoing to PFLAG, and then PFLAG
was going to the Spartanburg Pride, and somebody invited me
to meet them at Pride. So I got all dressed up and went
to have the tables and the vendors, and I have
entertainments and drag Queens on stage and doing a bunch of
stuff. And obviously the parade, I
(07:40):
found that one. It's always too hot.
It's always too hot for me. Huh.
Like. So like these pride events are
always in the worst time for me anyway, locally.
And the second thing I loved, itwas great, but pride in terms of
that engagement wasn't really much jam.
Like in terms of raising awareness.
It's not my sweet spot. My sweet spot is with you on the
(08:01):
podcast. Absolutely.
And my writing and going to Starbucks kind of one-on-one and
being in the world, just as AI don't want to say a normal
person, but just being seen in the world, right?
So when we talked about was on Pride super important.
We actually even talked about onBetty's podcast a little bit
about did we push too hard as a queer community to push Pride?
(08:24):
And like now there's all the pushing back against the pride
in the queer and LGBTQIA plus community.
We both took turns and we're notgoing to reveal all of that
here. You and I both took turns and
like whether that's true, what to do next.
So that also led me back into this topic of is it fair that
marginalized groups should need to hold themselves to a higher
(08:46):
standard of empathy and social expectations in the face of a
society that prefers to attack them for being a marginalized
group? We're talking about Pride or
talking about we're here, we're queer.
Get used to it. You're jamming your ideology
down or keep it behind doors. And as long as I don't have to
(09:06):
say it and all of a sudden we'reseeing this backlash of people
really going against us, I guessmy question is, is it fair for
us as a marginalized group to have to be the ones that take
the high room? They have to be the ones to be
more empathetic. They have to be the ones that if
somebody's lashing out at us, weturn the other cheek and just be
(09:29):
the better person. Like turn our pride and joy down
to make other people feel comfortable?
Is that what I'm hearing? It's some of it, yeah.
Yeah, it's really difficult because we don't want to
disappear. We don't want to feel like
companies like Louis Vuitton or other high end companies, Kate
(09:55):
Spade suddenly in the month of June, they're capitalizing on
rainbows and trans pride and just showcasing the fact that
they're not them, like they're not the other side.
But here we're going to market ourselves to be there for you
for this period and we're talking.
About an ally ship, right? This kind of phony ally ship and
(10:18):
it's very confusing. When it was posed on the the
podcast we were on, my brain wason fire because I kind of like a
kind of like a Beautiful Mind where you see all these points
of views from the left and the right and you're just trying to
make sense of it. Because the truth of the matter
is, it wasn't like this scene inthe 60s where a black person
(10:40):
would be in a record store with a mostly white community and
suddenly the mother would be dragging their kid away because
they don't want them to be exposed.
Or suddenly there's people dancing and everyone saying
though that devil rock'n'roll. The truth of the matter is it's
exploding. And not only is it exploding
from the group, but everyone nowwho are outside the group, who
(11:04):
are of the normal or of the majority, as we say, has to take
some sort of stand about the issue, has to take a very binary
stand. Either it's good or it's bad.
If you're a parent and your child comes to you and says in
middle school, I am trans, suddenly being a good parent
looks like this and being a bad parent looks like that.
(11:26):
When really middle schoolers, they're in a very vulnerable
time in their lives where their body isn't really connected to
their brain. For some people, and for some
people, it's very fluid when it comes to figuring out gender and
sexuality and all that stuff. And it's confusing because we're
suddenly bombarded with these choices, right?
(11:46):
We have these labels, we have trans, we have non binary.
We can be a furry if we want. There's all these kind of
options that were never there before.
We live in an interesting time. And just the idea that comes
back to it with having to hold ourselves to this higher
standard. I think it's just the question
of getting up each day and holding your head up high in a
(12:08):
world that is violent around theissues of transness and pride.
And I don't know. It's funny you say that thing,
holding our heads high. That's fine.
We should always walk out into the world of confidence.
It's a matter of holding ourselves in higher regard,
attacked by the populace who maysee us as an affront or as an
(12:32):
abomination or as something to arace.
And so the thing I was looking into was, don't we have a right
to get angry? Oh yeah.
But yet we do. Yes, absolutely agree.
But yeah, but yeah, we have to not show our anger for fear that
all of a sudden we're going to be seen as, oh, look at those
trans people. They're always so angry.
(12:53):
They're always so sensitive. They're always so whatever.
And we supposedly do ourself A disservice by showing our truth
of this is my emotion. I'm angry right now.
But no, no, we have to be all smiles and patience and
compassion. It reminds me very much of an
example at this preschool where I worked where the
(13:14):
administrative assistant is thisbeautiful black woman and she
was talking to us. We were doing a workshop on anti
bias curriculum and she said every day and most of the
teachers are white, not all, most.
She said every day I have to make sure no matter what's going
on in my life or how you reactedtowards me, I have to make sure
(13:35):
that my voice is calm and steadyand soothing.
Regardless of if I feel upset, emotional, angry, because I do
not want to be the stereotype. It is my job every day to make
sure that you're comfortable because of the society we live
in and because of how you respond to me.
And not only is that not my job,it's also my reality.
(13:58):
I come to work and I immediatelyneed to check a certain way of
being, and that's just kind of something based on something
that she can't help, like her skin, right?
So when it translates to what we're talking about today, not
trying to be too flamboyant, maybe that theme is coming back.
Looking more sis and tucking away some of the feminine items
(14:22):
that we've chosen because of this particular office.
I might be fired. Not only might I be fired, but I
may be beat up in the streets. And these are all themes that
are coming back back at us with a vengeance.
This isn't new for the queer community.
You know, this really isn't. And for a long time, it was the
(14:42):
feminine lesbians that would protect the queer men or the
trans women. They would protect them because
they had the passing privilege. So historically, there's just so
many themes that are just comingback.
It's it's more, I don't know. It's almost like reefer madness,
you know what I mean? I don't know.
It's just when it was that scarytrick.
(15:05):
I understand why people like, wedon't want this in our faces.
OK, Well, we still have to show up every day and be a community
and continue to hold each other up because, yes, there's walking
out with confidence, right? And that's great.
But how could you in this day and age where every day there's
laws being passed about taking Medicaid away and doing all
(15:27):
these things that make it really, you know, and act a
rebellion, is just to literally get up and get dressed and leave
the house. Yeah, Birch is the rebellion
you'd like to front. Yeah, absolutely.
How terrible would it be to be perceived as an angry,
aggressive black woman just for holding your truth and speaking
(15:48):
your truth because, oh, God forbid, you better.
Oh, that woman. Oh, you got feelings.
Whoa. Oh.
Boy oh boy, exactly. So definitely want to hit that
second. You made a point of the passing
privilege of lesbian, more feminine lesbian women and how
there's a leadership component in that.
Those we've seen so many civil rights leaders and queer leaders
(16:11):
who exude calm and confidence ineloquence and extraordinary
compassion when he's speaking. You go back to Martin Luther
King Junior and the March into DC, Washington, DC, and he had a
dream. He didn't speak of division.
He spoke of unity. He spoke of inclusivity.
He spoke of bringing the people together.
(16:33):
It's unfortunate that us as the marginalized group need needs to
take the High Road, not because we have to or that we should
need to, but because it actuallyis such a contrast to the
injustice we're already seeing everyday from the masses.
Unfortunately, when you meet aggression with aggression, it
(16:53):
never cancels each other out. It never actually comes to
anything that's going to unify. But if you bring aggression and
then you bring love and compassion and empathy,
obviously the aggression doesn'tstop.
But it's such high contrasting that you see the, I guess you
see more of what humanity shouldlook like.
Exactly. The hate, yeah.
Right. And when I think about
(17:15):
navigating expectations without losing oneself, coming up with
these practical tips or strategies such as like knowing
when to engage and when to disengage.
You know, embracing kind of the imperfection of yourself.
And has it relates to keeping yourself safe in the world and
how to show up, but also findingthose safe spaces and reframing
(17:39):
the idea of higher standards as survival tools and not identity
validators, if that makes sense.Yeah, it does makes a lot of
sense. Yeah.
And a lot of that I'm hearing also, it is survival to feel
that others will perceive us as less threatening.
We need to be very calm and collected and cool and not get
(18:00):
bristled up by the aggression towards us.
But unfortunately, all that's doing is stuffing down our real
feelings of anger and fear and maybe our own aggression because
we feel attacked. And how many people out there
who are being physically or verbally or mentally attacked
just like, I'm good, that's fine.
I was like, that's not the way our brains work.
(18:23):
So for us to have to have that much restraint in the face of
that. And yeah, And for so long, I'd
say for the past five years, thepush was this word authenticity,
right? Everyone was to be their
authentic self. And what does that mean?
And that's a very, very queer concept.
(18:43):
But also that concept of being your authentic self kind of bled
out into the mainstream. I don't know if it's California
thing, but it's very much authenticity.
Be your authentic self. And right now being authentic
and living your truth is really it's like punk as fuck.
You know what I mean? It's really an act of rebellion.
(19:04):
It is. And that is why it's so
important that there are resources like the Fox and the
Phoenix podcast, like your books, like Fox and Hanger, like
individual Instagram stories where you are hearing uplifting,
messy, beautiful, complex trans stories and scenarios that needs
(19:26):
to just keep on happening. Because the people that need us,
that are in these families of Republicans, all these baby
trans people, they need to be able to get their phone.
And I include people who say they've never met a trans person
in their life, but they really want to help.
Go on Instagram, type in trans man, trans woman, non binary,
(19:49):
whatever it is and you will hearvoices of trans stories, real
trans stories of for me, it's always so delicious and
delightful and complex and. And I just, I'm drawn to them
like a moth to the flame, which would make sense for me and the
work that I do and what where passion lives for me.
(20:10):
Even the testosterone videos where it's like this is me one
month on tea, me two months on tea.
It's life, it's humanity. It's happening right now and
it's something that we all can learn from.
That isn't so in your face, but you can go find them easily.
Yeah, Oh my God, you said perfect thing there, which is.
(20:31):
And I've equated to a lot of thethings I've been seeing on the
TikTok and on the Reels and on the Instagrams is not in the
queer community. But ADHD.
There's so much out there. Talk about authenticity.
Yeah, the authenticity being shown of hey, this is how messy
it is to have ADHD. And here's the things I suffer
with, and I'm trying to explain my way so that maybe you can see
(20:54):
it and be like, oh, oh, shit, yeah, I see.
Like how you think differently than the neurotypicals in the
world. And I wanted to also say one of
the other components I keep running into is it always seems
to be our job. And you said this exactly.
Go look it up. Go figure it out.
Go do the research. It's not my job necessarily to
(21:14):
explain to you why I'm worthy ofhumanity and be a part of
society. Is that my job to educate you?
Yeah, you may be interested and yes, I'm happy to talk to you.
But it's not really the marginalized group to explain to
the non marginalized group why we deserve to be heard.
It really is the majority that should be taking the onus of
(21:36):
learning and researching and doing their diligence versus
just like spouting hate because they're unfortunately as a
marginalized group. How many leaders do you have are
willing to be those educators atall time to rise up and say you
got it wrong and it's hard for us to constantly be the one to
rise, raise our voices up in order for the majority blind.
(21:58):
Oh yeah, now I get it. But if they took the opportunity
and the passion and the want to learn on their own, that's when
the change happens that the majority leaders, when they
start actually caring enough to figure out on their own versus
US trying to force feed the truth to them as we see it.
(22:19):
Yeah, and it's just really interesting because you and I in
our own personal lanes, you as atrans person, me as an advocate.
And so in this work, we have become those teachers, if you
will, for people that don't know.
And it would agitate me a littlebit, but I know it's why I'm
here, because my circles aren't trans outside my community.
(22:43):
That would sound so, so interesting.
But like, my circle, my close circle of friendships, or my
family, right? They really need someone like me
to ask these questions too. Because they know how invested I
am in the community. They know how long I've worked
in the community. Does it get frustrating for me?
(23:04):
And do I wish that they would? If they really want to know,
would they go online and stuff? 1000% because I feel awkward
sometimes because I'm not trans and I am sharing what I know
from all the trans stories, whatI've learned from all the trans
stories. And for me that's both.
It's not a burden. I feel some pressure to get it
(23:26):
right. Sometimes it also feels because
I'm not trans, I'm just, well, there are some people right next
door that you can go and you know what I mean?
Like I'd have teachers coming upto me in the hall being like, if
there's anything I can do, please let me know, you know?
And it's just, it just felt it didn't feel disingenuous at all
at all. I had someone come up to me that
(23:48):
actually has a trans child and was just like, how are you
doing? And I put my arms back on her
shoulders and I said, how are you doing?
You know? So I've always felt very
imposter syndrome ish Imposter. Imposter.
(24:10):
Imposter yes, by Jim. She's got it imposter syndrome
adjacent a little bit an honorary member of the
community. But again, what is this?
This is a cell phone and most people are on Instagram and just
I have the same access as you do.
I don't know. Yeah, raising a bunch of great
(24:30):
points. Interestingly enough, when I
think about the work that you and I do collectively and
individually, I see that more ofserving our community, not
necessarily in our community andthe allies of our community who
are trying to learn more. I'm not sure how much reach we
have into the political sphere of people going.
(24:53):
I was a congressman and I found a fox in the Finish podcast and
I'm going to change all the bills that I've been writing.
I don't know if we have that kind of influence.
It'd be amazing if we did. But for me, it's always been
about arming our community. The one actually have love for
themselves and realize they are perfect and and be happy with
(25:14):
the person they are in the face of all the people saying they're
they should be erased and the people who are like my partner
is this way and I just found outI want to be a support system
and learn more. I feel like that's where our
pocket is of. Course.
Yeah, of course. So I would love for us to all of
a sudden be on Capitol Hill talking to Congress about
(25:34):
something. I think that would be a lovely
next step. Yeah.
Right now I feel like our lane is our people.
Our people. Right.
It's like going to a pride event, like you said at the
start verse, just doing your ownquiet, powerful way to touch one
life who in turn touches anotherlife and touches another life.
And that kind of ripple effect going further than we can ever
(25:57):
imagine. I mean, I can't tell you how
much I run on with my business and with you.
And I guess where we're just doing the work, we're doing the
work that we're doing the work where I'm swimming, I'm
swimming, I'm swimming. And then someone will send me
how they look in an outfit that I chose.
And it definitely is akin to, for me to that turning them
(26:18):
around and having them see themselves for the first time in
the mirror. It's that validating and big for
me. And then we're swimming.
We're swimming, we're swimming. And then we get a message that
says, you've changed my life with this episode.
And then we look and we see the stats on how many listens or
whatever it is that makes us feel like, wow.
It's not just about doing the work, but actually it's stopping
(26:43):
looking up and look at the beautiful garden that we've
created in terms of something that just was an idea.
It was just an idea and it's easy for me.
I'm just speaking for me now with Fox and Anger to get
frustrated and just to feel likeI'm not helping as many people
as I want to and this and that. But if I just stop and look up
(27:05):
and breathe and think about all the individual trans stories
that I have been able to be a part of, there are no words.
Yeah, it is. We just plant the seeds.
And as you're talking, I'm thinking about one person that
reached out to me and said, hey,thank you for writing these
books. And then as I'm thinking about
that one specific person, I'm thinking about, oh, wait, but
(27:26):
that person I know connected to this other person who is now
connected to this other person. And that first person is now
leading up a pride group in their area.
So yeah, like you said, look it up.
And realizing what's happening is amazing.
That's the higher standard of care that we hold ourselves to.
And that's the standard of care for me.
I've, I don't know, I have this false idea that I have
(27:49):
expectations for the listeners. Like they've all been with us
through this entire time. So sometimes you'll say
something that is like very old school to me.
And I was like, oh, we don't think that anymore, do we,
listeners? You know what I mean?
I have a very higher standard interms of how we raised up this
kind of podcast. And it's, I don't know, in the
(28:09):
face of resilience and this muchscrutiny, it just, it feels
good. Yeah, absolutely.
Oh, absolutely. I did do some deep diving for
this episode because I was struggling with the what's in
the whys about in the house. So this caught my attention
because I was talking about marginalized groups and I wasn't
talking about queerdom in specific specificity.
(28:31):
I was speaking about any of them.
So this paragraph really stood out to me.
And it says holding marginalizedgroups to a higher standard of
empathy or decorum places the burden of social progress on the
people most harmed by injustice.It's not just unfair, it's
unsustainable and dehumanizing. True progress means shifting the
(28:56):
burden of change onto those withprivilege and power, valuing the
full range of emotional expression from all people, not
just the politeness we're supposed to show people so we
don't make people uncomfortable,and recognizing that anger from
the oppressed is often justifiedand necessary for real
(29:16):
transformation. Beautiful.
Yeah, I really thought so. In one last thing that I ran
across, I was I thought was super powerful, which was
recognize when code switching issurvival versus self erasure,
which I was like brain pants exploding.
I'm like, Oh my God, sometimes you do have to stand up in a I
(29:39):
don't want to say a real way because everything we do to hold
herself in safety and security and being present in the world
does sometimes takes that higherempathy and politeness and a
sweet smile don't make waves. I get that.
That is absolutely a part of what we need to do in the face
of injustice. But the idea of if we continue
(30:01):
to do that in the most polite ways and not make waves and
somebody says something super shitty to us, I'm like, OK, and
all we're doing is ourself, we're doing a disservice.
Yeah. And I can just imagine being in
a space, whether you're assist, ally or whether you're a trans
person, you're hearing a conversation that directly is
(30:25):
super triggering, affects you knowing how to control that knee
jerk reaction just for your own safety and your own protection
of your own Peace of Mind. I firmly believe that people
need to earn the rights to hear your story.
They just do. And so sometimes, even if it's
an argument that compromises your ability to stand up for
(30:48):
yourself just in the name of safety, figuring out how to
quietly get the hell out of there.
Figuring out how to suddenly your phone's buzzing in your
pocket and you have to get it. Figuring out what you need to do
to get through those moments. Because in this day and age,
it's not worth it to me. It's not worth it sometimes for
(31:09):
me. I have a privilege.
I'm a SIS ally. I'm not trans.
So depending on the group, I will often say something and
educate because I feel like that's part of my job.
But if for a trans person to be in a vulnerable situation where
their life is in jeopardy and incompromise, or they may say
something that will involve themto feel even more triggered,
(31:30):
it's not worth it. Get the hell out of there.
Save yourself, you know life. I mean, it's self preservation
is of the utmost importance always.
So that has always been a cornerstone of our podcast.
Anytime we talk about any of these type of subjects, it's
about listen content in the subject matter we're speaking
about. True in a lot of ways, but that
doesn't mean that you have to adopt it if you feel
(31:52):
uncomfortable and unsafe, so. Right.
And so that politeness and decorum could look like a lot of
different things. It could look like excusing
yourself. It could look like disengaging
when you want to engage. It could look like coming up
with some nonviolent communication things if you feel
like you're not necessarily outed just by your physical
(32:15):
appearance. That's a really interesting
opinion. And sometimes even that is very
fiery, but it protects you in the way to say, this is where I
stand, but I'm not going to engage.
True. I can't tell you how many times
I've not said something or somebody's telling a story about
some queer person I met and making fun of that person or
whatever adventure they were having and I bit my tongue
(32:38):
because I didn't feel it was one.
I wasn't going to change any minds in that moment and what am
I going to do? Just out myself to my Co worker
at that point? Because I feel that his take on
the event is a little insensitive.
It's tough. It's.
Very, very tough. Yeah, it's very, very tough.
And if you, for example, you have dual gender privilege in a
(33:00):
sense that you're protected, butyou have your maleness for most
of the time. And for me, I'm assist female,
my bisexuality, I'm not leading with it for my appearance.
So it feels almost when something happens like this
where someone's making fun of a trans person or whatever, it is
rare. It is rare that I won't speak up
(33:22):
for them or speak out depending on the group that I'm with.
But you know, like we talked about today, you got to know
your safe spaces and if it's just good and your audience.
So if it's just going to make a few people be stunned, you know
what I mean? Or if you want to deal with a
full out argument, no, but like you and I are at different
(33:44):
angles of it, I'm at a differentangle than you are in terms of
transness. We're all just trying to get an
angle working on our different angles.
We're just trying to figure out how to move through this really,
really, really scary time. I know I don't like it.
I don't like it. Yeah.
But thank you so much for this topic.
It really? Yeah.
(34:04):
Yeah, I really, I will tell you that while I was struggling with
what I was even thinking about the topic again, I did a lot of
research before today. And while you and I actually
have had two podcasts of recordings, three if you count
the appearance in the same week,I still want to give time to
this. And the one last thing that I
read, which I thought was fantastic, it says marginalized
(34:27):
people are not society's therapists, educators or moral
compasses by default. Expecting them to carry that
weight while being attacked is not empathy, it's exploitation.
True justice asks more from those who have more to give.
So yeah, I thought it was a really amazing statements that
(34:48):
really just set my brain afire. Really chomping at the bid for
this conversation. And again, will restate that
always keep yourself safe. Only do what's comfortable for
you. Yes, we all know that sometimes
confrontation is uncomfortable, especially when it's not your
default. But also there are proper places
(35:08):
for anger and confrontation and conversation and discourse that
may be needed. And if you feel that you have a
good opportunity and a good position and the relative safety
to speak from that point, I think what we're trying to say
is, you know what? We don't have to be the High
Road every time. It's probably helpful to keep us
(35:29):
safe and keep us secure and keepus living and breathing.
But you know, if you do find that there is an opportunity to
speak up on your behalf and on behalf of people in the
community, please do. That's why I try to do in my
little pockets the work we do together.
If you got it in you, awesome, because the world needs
advocates and keep on doing whatyou're doing.
And hopefully it won't just be smiles and sweetness that brings
(35:54):
us to to the table, but maybe a little bit more more of that
pride chip, more of the marching, more of the advocacy
that's a little more out there in in battle ready.
Yeah, and feeling like you have to be the perfect representative
of the trans or queer community,figuring out where does that
pressure come from? Where does it come from and who
(36:15):
benefits from it? And not losing yourself because
you're trying so hard to be thisperfect idea.
We could look around this messy world and say, well, perfect
doesn't exist. Everyone's broken, everyone's
shattered. F perfect, right?
But we still have this perfection mindset that comes
from somewhere deep and true. And we're trying so hard to be,
(36:37):
quote, good. So thank you again for this
episode. I hope that our listeners
enjoyed it. There's a lot of really good
Nuggets for thought. Yeah.
We are all just perfectly imperfect.
And we're all just trying to do the best we can with the mosaic
that is our lives. Very.
True. So bye bye bye bye bye bye bye
(37:00):
bye for now. Wait.
Don't forget to listen to a new episode every Wednesday.
Where was I? Bye for now.
I don't even know what to do at that point.
I will say thank you for listening.
Everyone please comment on this episode.
This is one of those very powerful episodes I believe that
(37:20):
could use a lot of conversation.Would love to hear from you, got
your thoughts and maybe we can return on another episode.
And while Julie says bye bye, bye bye for now, I will say in
response to that, until next time, you can find me on
Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing and
(37:42):
on Instagram at Savannah Hawk. Remember, that's HAUK.
And to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hanger or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhanger.com.
(38:04):
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, understanding
the feminine cross dressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hey, Julie. Hi, Savannah.
How? Are you?
I'm good, I'm just crunching on my Cheetos.
Oh Cheetos are the best. I told you before we started
recording that last night I stayed up till 3:00 AM and I
(00:52):
really wanted some Cheetos. Not the lie.
So I went to my garage. I ruffled through this.
I don't know if you've ever beento Costco where they have that
box of multi flavors. It could be 50, could be 60
different little chips, right? And normally the Cheetos cling
together at some area of the box.
I don't know. They find each other, the
friends, whatever. But I couldn't find them.
(01:15):
And I was like, it was like, I was unearthing the entire box
looking for is that even a word for this?
And I was pulling them up in in handfuls and it was like,
Doritos, Doritos, burritos, burritos.
For some reason, there's no shortage of Fritos or potato
(01:35):
AAA's. Any hope Doritos, Doritos,
Doritos. I'm like, what is going on?
So I turned on the lights, whichwas a lot brighter.
Literally sifting through as I'mdoing the breast stroke, right,
sifting through, sifting through, nothing but Nacho
cheese Doritos. I'm like, this is so weird.
Normally they're like at least five.
(01:56):
Like I said, they find each other and they're like, oh,
let's hold each other because we're in the minority.
But like, I didn't see a single thing.
And I was like, this is weird. Maybe this is like a faulty box
that didn't come in with any, but that's so weird.
So today as I was getting ready for the podcast and going to the
(02:17):
fridge in the garage trying to get a a bottle of cold water
baled, I got an Izzy mango flavor.
Anywho, I turned to the box to give it a glance of you.
I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed and I and I see
this little this little bag of Cheetos be like what about me?
(02:41):
And it like made its way like outside the box till the flap
hanging on for dear life. I'm like right, I'm like
Cheetos, you do exist. So I like grabbed the Cheetos
and it was like, love me and I'mlike, I will love you and then
and I will not save you from my daughter's last week of school.
(03:01):
So I just brought it in my room like it's a like it's a teddy or
Linus's blanket. And I've just been eating from
this Cheetos thing. It's the Cheetos loves me and I
love the Cheetos. My God, I am so with you.
I have a conspiracy theory. I believe that many people share
this conspiracy theory which is in any of these variety packs
(03:22):
from Costco or Walmart. I'm with you wherever, anytime
you have more than 10 put together I swear to God it is
filled with the only one of the variety you don't want typically
is the corn chips, then it's Lay's potato chips, then it's
Doritos. The BBQ.
(03:42):
There's the BBQ. The BBQ also.
Right. Yeah.
Even subsetting the Lay's potatochips.
And if you're looking to find 2 Cheeto bags out of a 50 pack,
you're. I feel like that is some
corporation and some sinister society decided to punish us in
this way. And not unlike Del Monte canned
(04:03):
fruit cocktail as a child, I loved it.
But yet, if you had more than two cherry halves in an entire
can, you might as well just playthe lottery.
Because if you had three, you knew.
You had a whole cherry. If you have a half a cherry,
you'd be like, Oh my God, I'm not telling anyone anyone.
I'm not even showing my parents,'cause they want to rebag it and
(04:26):
put it down in the the shelter. The bottle goes both ways and be
like, oh man, 1/2 a cherry. We could survive off that for
two. Weeks.
Oh my God. Oh my God, You're bringing up
the traumatic childhood and traumatic adult memories.
OK, OK, well anywho, that was mythat's my little tidbit for the
(04:46):
day. How have you been?
I have been super busy. Last episode, I think we spoke
about how I was hanging out withmy friends who came in from
Florida and came in from Atlantaand we all joined forces to have
an amazing weekend. This past weekend, Tracy and her
husband came in. I met them at Keystone.
I met her at Keystone and they came in for the weekend
(05:08):
impromptu. Mind you, they had plans that
fell through and I'm like, hey, why don't you come visit me?
And they're like, OK, and then all of a sudden, two days later,
they're on the road coming to visit me.
And we've been painting the town.
We went to Spartanburg downtown for dinner.
We went to Greenville to see theReedy and go to a comedy show
and have a lovely dinner. And today, after this podcast,
(05:29):
who knows what lovely dinner maybring.
And they'll be heading back on Monday.
Also, I wanted to do a little shout out because you, Julie
Rubenstein and me. You.
And me Hawk were joined forces like the Wonder Twins activating
on the Maddie Taylor Show podcast.
(05:51):
Yes. So Maddie Taylor reached out to
us to either do 2 individual interviews or a join forces
interview. And we joined forces at Fox and
a Phoenix joined forces and we had our first three-way.
Yes, in power. It was very interesting.
(06:14):
First of all, she's fabulous. She is.
Yes. And she, this was her first
three-way. Was it our first three-way?
No, it was her. It was really her first.
It was the joke that it was her first three-way.
Was it ours? No, we've done things with other
people free to be she we were collectively a trail even her
engineer was on. If you want to be super, super
finicky body, sure, maybe. Yeah, we I have blast, had a
(06:36):
good time. I did too.
She's such a sweetie. She did a great job of hearing
us both like we we made a plan to take to her.
I don't know, it worked out and she did fabulous.
And if you ever want to have us on again as a pair, individual
selfie, a stranger doll face because we had a blast.
Hell to the Yizza, yes. So Speaking of hell to the
(06:58):
Yizza, like last week, I have nosegue to go with this, but topic
today is mine. And I have been agonizing, like
low key agonizing over this topic.
Not because I didn't want to broach it, but because it's been
hit my brain pan quite a bit in different ways.
Yeah, to just try to, like, set up the premise in that.
(07:19):
I've said it before that I'm notreally a Pride event goer.
I got my start in South Carolinagoing to PFLAG, and then PFLAG
was going to the Spartanburg Pride, and somebody invited me
to meet them at Pride. So I got all dressed up and went
to have the tables and the vendors, and I have
entertainments and drag Queens on stage and doing a bunch of
stuff. And obviously the parade, I
(07:40):
found that one. It's always too hot.
It's always too hot for me. Huh.
Like. So like these pride events are
always in the worst time for me anyway, locally.
And the second thing I loved, itwas great, but pride in terms of
that engagement wasn't really much jam.
Like in terms of raising awareness.
It's not my sweet spot. My sweet spot is with you on the
(08:01):
podcast. Absolutely.
And my writing and going to Starbucks kind of one-on-one and
being in the world, just as AI don't want to say a normal
person, but just being seen in the world, right?
So when we talked about was on Pride super important.
We actually even talked about onBetty's podcast a little bit
about did we push too hard as a queer community to push Pride?
(08:24):
And like now there's all the pushing back against the pride
in the queer and LGBTQIA plus community.
We both took turns and we're notgoing to reveal all of that
here. You and I both took turns and
like whether that's true, what to do next.
So that also led me back into this topic of is it fair that
marginalized groups should need to hold themselves to a higher
(08:46):
standard of empathy and social expectations in the face of a
society that prefers to attack them for being a marginalized
group? We're talking about Pride or
talking about we're here, we're queer.
Get used to it. You're jamming your ideology
down or keep it behind doors. And as long as I don't have to
(09:06):
say it and all of a sudden we'reseeing this backlash of people
really going against us, I guessmy question is, is it fair for
us as a marginalized group to have to be the ones that take
the high room? They have to be the ones to be
more empathetic. They have to be the ones that if
somebody's lashing out at us, weturn the other cheek and just be
(09:29):
the better person. Like turn our pride and joy down
to make other people feel comfortable?
Is that what I'm hearing? It's some of it, yeah.
Yeah, it's really difficult because we don't want to
disappear. We don't want to feel like
companies like Louis Vuitton or other high end companies, Kate
(09:55):
Spade suddenly in the month of June, they're capitalizing on
rainbows and trans pride and just showcasing the fact that
they're not them, like they're not the other side.
But here we're going to market ourselves to be there for you
for this period and we're talking.
About an ally ship, right? This kind of phony ally ship and
(10:18):
it's very confusing. When it was posed on the the
podcast we were on, my brain wason fire because I kind of like a
kind of like a Beautiful Mind where you see all these points
of views from the left and the right and you're just trying to
make sense of it. Because the truth of the matter
is, it wasn't like this scene inthe 60s where a black person
(10:40):
would be in a record store with a mostly white community and
suddenly the mother would be dragging their kid away because
they don't want them to be exposed.
Or suddenly there's people dancing and everyone saying
though that devil rock'n'roll. The truth of the matter is it's
exploding. And not only is it exploding
from the group, but everyone nowwho are outside the group, who
(11:04):
are of the normal or of the majority, as we say, has to take
some sort of stand about the issue, has to take a very binary
stand. Either it's good or it's bad.
If you're a parent and your child comes to you and says in
middle school, I am trans, suddenly being a good parent
looks like this and being a bad parent looks like that.
(11:26):
When really middle schoolers, they're in a very vulnerable
time in their lives where their body isn't really connected to
their brain. For some people, and for some
people, it's very fluid when it comes to figuring out gender and
sexuality and all that stuff. And it's confusing because we're
suddenly bombarded with these choices, right?
(11:46):
We have these labels, we have trans, we have non binary.
We can be a furry if we want. There's all these kind of
options that were never there before.
We live in an interesting time. And just the idea that comes
back to it with having to hold ourselves to this higher
standard. I think it's just the question
of getting up each day and holding your head up high in a
(12:08):
world that is violent around theissues of transness and pride.
And I don't know. It's funny you say that thing,
holding our heads high. That's fine.
We should always walk out into the world of confidence.
It's a matter of holding ourselves in higher regard,
attacked by the populace who maysee us as an affront or as an
(12:32):
abomination or as something to arace.
And so the thing I was looking into was, don't we have a right
to get angry? Oh yeah.
But yet we do. Yes, absolutely agree.
But yeah, but yeah, we have to not show our anger for fear that
all of a sudden we're going to be seen as, oh, look at those
trans people. They're always so angry.
(12:53):
They're always so sensitive. They're always so whatever.
And we supposedly do ourself A disservice by showing our truth
of this is my emotion. I'm angry right now.
But no, no, we have to be all smiles and patience and
compassion. It reminds me very much of an
example at this preschool where I worked where the
(13:14):
administrative assistant is thisbeautiful black woman and she
was talking to us. We were doing a workshop on anti
bias curriculum and she said every day and most of the
teachers are white, not all, most.
She said every day I have to make sure no matter what's going
on in my life or how you reactedtowards me, I have to make sure
(13:35):
that my voice is calm and steadyand soothing.
Regardless of if I feel upset, emotional, angry, because I do
not want to be the stereotype. It is my job every day to make
sure that you're comfortable because of the society we live
in and because of how you respond to me.
And not only is that not my job,it's also my reality.
(13:58):
I come to work and I immediatelyneed to check a certain way of
being, and that's just kind of something based on something
that she can't help, like her skin, right?
So when it translates to what we're talking about today, not
trying to be too flamboyant, maybe that theme is coming back.
Looking more sis and tucking away some of the feminine items
(14:22):
that we've chosen because of this particular office.
I might be fired. Not only might I be fired, but I
may be beat up in the streets. And these are all themes that
are coming back back at us with a vengeance.
This isn't new for the queer community.
You know, this really isn't. And for a long time, it was the
(14:42):
feminine lesbians that would protect the queer men or the
trans women. They would protect them because
they had the passing privilege. So historically, there's just so
many themes that are just comingback.
It's it's more, I don't know. It's almost like reefer madness,
you know what I mean? I don't know.
It's just when it was that scarytrick.
(15:05):
I understand why people like, wedon't want this in our faces.
OK, Well, we still have to show up every day and be a community
and continue to hold each other up because, yes, there's walking
out with confidence, right? And that's great.
But how could you in this day and age where every day there's
laws being passed about taking Medicaid away and doing all
(15:27):
these things that make it really, you know, and act a
rebellion, is just to literally get up and get dressed and leave
the house. Yeah, Birch is the rebellion
you'd like to front. Yeah, absolutely.
How terrible would it be to be perceived as an angry,
aggressive black woman just for holding your truth and speaking
(15:48):
your truth because, oh, God forbid, you better.
Oh, that woman. Oh, you got feelings.
Whoa. Oh.
Boy oh boy, exactly. So definitely want to hit that
second. You made a point of the passing
privilege of lesbian, more feminine lesbian women and how
there's a leadership component in that.
Those we've seen so many civil rights leaders and queer leaders
(16:11):
who exude calm and confidence ineloquence and extraordinary
compassion when he's speaking. You go back to Martin Luther
King Junior and the March into DC, Washington, DC, and he had a
dream. He didn't speak of division.
He spoke of unity. He spoke of inclusivity.
He spoke of bringing the people together.
(16:33):
It's unfortunate that us as the marginalized group need needs to
take the High Road, not because we have to or that we should
need to, but because it actuallyis such a contrast to the
injustice we're already seeing everyday from the masses.
Unfortunately, when you meet aggression with aggression, it
(16:53):
never cancels each other out. It never actually comes to
anything that's going to unify. But if you bring aggression and
then you bring love and compassion and empathy,
obviously the aggression doesn'tstop.
But it's such high contrasting that you see the, I guess you
see more of what humanity shouldlook like.
Exactly. The hate, yeah.
Right. And when I think about
(17:15):
navigating expectations without losing oneself, coming up with
these practical tips or strategies such as like knowing
when to engage and when to disengage.
You know, embracing kind of the imperfection of yourself.
And has it relates to keeping yourself safe in the world and
how to show up, but also findingthose safe spaces and reframing
(17:39):
the idea of higher standards as survival tools and not identity
validators, if that makes sense.Yeah, it does makes a lot of
sense. Yeah.
And a lot of that I'm hearing also, it is survival to feel
that others will perceive us as less threatening.
We need to be very calm and collected and cool and not get
(18:00):
bristled up by the aggression towards us.
But unfortunately, all that's doing is stuffing down our real
feelings of anger and fear and maybe our own aggression because
we feel attacked. And how many people out there
who are being physically or verbally or mentally attacked
just like, I'm good, that's fine.
I was like, that's not the way our brains work.
(18:23):
So for us to have to have that much restraint in the face of
that. And yeah, And for so long, I'd
say for the past five years, thepush was this word authenticity,
right? Everyone was to be their
authentic self. And what does that mean?
And that's a very, very queer concept.
(18:43):
But also that concept of being your authentic self kind of bled
out into the mainstream. I don't know if it's California
thing, but it's very much authenticity.
Be your authentic self. And right now being authentic
and living your truth is really it's like punk as fuck.
You know what I mean? It's really an act of rebellion.
(19:04):
It is. And that is why it's so
important that there are resources like the Fox and the
Phoenix podcast, like your books, like Fox and Hanger, like
individual Instagram stories where you are hearing uplifting,
messy, beautiful, complex trans stories and scenarios that needs
(19:26):
to just keep on happening. Because the people that need us,
that are in these families of Republicans, all these baby
trans people, they need to be able to get their phone.
And I include people who say they've never met a trans person
in their life, but they really want to help.
Go on Instagram, type in trans man, trans woman, non binary,
(19:49):
whatever it is and you will hearvoices of trans stories, real
trans stories of for me, it's always so delicious and
delightful and complex and. And I just, I'm drawn to them
like a moth to the flame, which would make sense for me and the
work that I do and what where passion lives for me.
(20:10):
Even the testosterone videos where it's like this is me one
month on tea, me two months on tea.
It's life, it's humanity. It's happening right now and
it's something that we all can learn from.
That isn't so in your face, but you can go find them easily.
Yeah, Oh my God, you said perfect thing there, which is.
(20:31):
And I've equated to a lot of thethings I've been seeing on the
TikTok and on the Reels and on the Instagrams is not in the
queer community. But ADHD.
There's so much out there. Talk about authenticity.
Yeah, the authenticity being shown of hey, this is how messy
it is to have ADHD. And here's the things I suffer
with, and I'm trying to explain my way so that maybe you can see
(20:54):
it and be like, oh, oh, shit, yeah, I see.
Like how you think differently than the neurotypicals in the
world. And I wanted to also say one of
the other components I keep running into is it always seems
to be our job. And you said this exactly.
Go look it up. Go figure it out.
Go do the research. It's not my job necessarily to
(21:14):
explain to you why I'm worthy ofhumanity and be a part of
society. Is that my job to educate you?
Yeah, you may be interested and yes, I'm happy to talk to you.
But it's not really the marginalized group to explain to
the non marginalized group why we deserve to be heard.
It really is the majority that should be taking the onus of
(21:36):
learning and researching and doing their diligence versus
just like spouting hate because they're unfortunately as a
marginalized group. How many leaders do you have are
willing to be those educators atall time to rise up and say you
got it wrong and it's hard for us to constantly be the one to
rise, raise our voices up in order for the majority blind.
(21:58):
Oh yeah, now I get it. But if they took the opportunity
and the passion and the want to learn on their own, that's when
the change happens that the majority leaders, when they
start actually caring enough to figure out on their own versus
US trying to force feed the truth to them as we see it.
(22:19):
Yeah, and it's just really interesting because you and I in
our own personal lanes, you as atrans person, me as an advocate.
And so in this work, we have become those teachers, if you
will, for people that don't know.
And it would agitate me a littlebit, but I know it's why I'm
here, because my circles aren't trans outside my community.
(22:43):
That would sound so, so interesting.
But like, my circle, my close circle of friendships, or my
family, right? They really need someone like me
to ask these questions too. Because they know how invested I
am in the community. They know how long I've worked
in the community. Does it get frustrating for me?
(23:04):
And do I wish that they would? If they really want to know,
would they go online and stuff? 1000% because I feel awkward
sometimes because I'm not trans and I am sharing what I know
from all the trans stories, whatI've learned from all the trans
stories. And for me that's both.
It's not a burden. I feel some pressure to get it
(23:26):
right. Sometimes it also feels because
I'm not trans, I'm just, well, there are some people right next
door that you can go and you know what I mean?
Like I'd have teachers coming upto me in the hall being like, if
there's anything I can do, please let me know, you know?
And it's just, it just felt it didn't feel disingenuous at all
at all. I had someone come up to me that
(23:48):
actually has a trans child and was just like, how are you
doing? And I put my arms back on her
shoulders and I said, how are you doing?
You know? So I've always felt very
imposter syndrome ish Imposter. Imposter.
(24:10):
Imposter yes, by Jim. She's got it imposter syndrome
adjacent a little bit an honorary member of the
community. But again, what is this?
This is a cell phone and most people are on Instagram and just
I have the same access as you do.
I don't know. Yeah, raising a bunch of great
(24:30):
points. Interestingly enough, when I
think about the work that you and I do collectively and
individually, I see that more ofserving our community, not
necessarily in our community andthe allies of our community who
are trying to learn more. I'm not sure how much reach we
have into the political sphere of people going.
(24:53):
I was a congressman and I found a fox in the Finish podcast and
I'm going to change all the bills that I've been writing.
I don't know if we have that kind of influence.
It'd be amazing if we did. But for me, it's always been
about arming our community. The one actually have love for
themselves and realize they are perfect and and be happy with
(25:14):
the person they are in the face of all the people saying they're
they should be erased and the people who are like my partner
is this way and I just found outI want to be a support system
and learn more. I feel like that's where our
pocket is of. Course.
Yeah, of course. So I would love for us to all of
a sudden be on Capitol Hill talking to Congress about
(25:34):
something. I think that would be a lovely
next step. Yeah.
Right now I feel like our lane is our people.
Our people. Right.
It's like going to a pride event, like you said at the
start verse, just doing your ownquiet, powerful way to touch one
life who in turn touches anotherlife and touches another life.
And that kind of ripple effect going further than we can ever
(25:57):
imagine. I mean, I can't tell you how
much I run on with my business and with you.
And I guess where we're just doing the work, we're doing the
work that we're doing the work where I'm swimming, I'm
swimming, I'm swimming. And then someone will send me
how they look in an outfit that I chose.
And it definitely is akin to, for me to that turning them
(26:18):
around and having them see themselves for the first time in
the mirror. It's that validating and big for
me. And then we're swimming.
We're swimming, we're swimming. And then we get a message that
says, you've changed my life with this episode.
And then we look and we see the stats on how many listens or
whatever it is that makes us feel like, wow.
It's not just about doing the work, but actually it's stopping
(26:43):
looking up and look at the beautiful garden that we've
created in terms of something that just was an idea.
It was just an idea and it's easy for me.
I'm just speaking for me now with Fox and Anger to get
frustrated and just to feel likeI'm not helping as many people
as I want to and this and that. But if I just stop and look up
(27:05):
and breathe and think about all the individual trans stories
that I have been able to be a part of, there are no words.
Yeah, it is. We just plant the seeds.
And as you're talking, I'm thinking about one person that
reached out to me and said, hey,thank you for writing these
books. And then as I'm thinking about
that one specific person, I'm thinking about, oh, wait, but
(27:26):
that person I know connected to this other person who is now
connected to this other person. And that first person is now
leading up a pride group in their area.
So yeah, like you said, look it up.
And realizing what's happening is amazing.
That's the higher standard of care that we hold ourselves to.
And that's the standard of care for me.
I've, I don't know, I have this false idea that I have
(27:49):
expectations for the listeners. Like they've all been with us
through this entire time. So sometimes you'll say
something that is like very old school to me.
And I was like, oh, we don't think that anymore, do we,
listeners? You know what I mean?
I have a very higher standard interms of how we raised up this
kind of podcast. And it's, I don't know, in the
(28:09):
face of resilience and this muchscrutiny, it just, it feels
good. Yeah, absolutely.
Oh, absolutely. I did do some deep diving for
this episode because I was struggling with the what's in
the whys about in the house. So this caught my attention
because I was talking about marginalized groups and I wasn't
talking about queerdom in specific specificity.
(28:31):
I was speaking about any of them.
So this paragraph really stood out to me.
And it says holding marginalizedgroups to a higher standard of
empathy or decorum places the burden of social progress on the
people most harmed by injustice.It's not just unfair, it's
unsustainable and dehumanizing. True progress means shifting the
(28:56):
burden of change onto those withprivilege and power, valuing the
full range of emotional expression from all people, not
just the politeness we're supposed to show people so we
don't make people uncomfortable,and recognizing that anger from
the oppressed is often justifiedand necessary for real
(29:16):
transformation. Beautiful.
Yeah, I really thought so. In one last thing that I ran
across, I was I thought was super powerful, which was
recognize when code switching issurvival versus self erasure,
which I was like brain pants exploding.
I'm like, Oh my God, sometimes you do have to stand up in a I
(29:39):
don't want to say a real way because everything we do to hold
herself in safety and security and being present in the world
does sometimes takes that higherempathy and politeness and a
sweet smile don't make waves. I get that.
That is absolutely a part of what we need to do in the face
of injustice. But the idea of if we continue
(30:01):
to do that in the most polite ways and not make waves and
somebody says something super shitty to us, I'm like, OK, and
all we're doing is ourself, we're doing a disservice.
Yeah. And I can just imagine being in
a space, whether you're assist, ally or whether you're a trans
person, you're hearing a conversation that directly is
(30:25):
super triggering, affects you knowing how to control that knee
jerk reaction just for your own safety and your own protection
of your own Peace of Mind. I firmly believe that people
need to earn the rights to hear your story.
They just do. And so sometimes, even if it's
an argument that compromises your ability to stand up for
(30:48):
yourself just in the name of safety, figuring out how to
quietly get the hell out of there.
Figuring out how to suddenly your phone's buzzing in your
pocket and you have to get it. Figuring out what you need to do
to get through those moments. Because in this day and age,
it's not worth it to me. It's not worth it sometimes for
(31:09):
me. I have a privilege.
I'm a SIS ally. I'm not trans.
So depending on the group, I will often say something and
educate because I feel like that's part of my job.
But if for a trans person to be in a vulnerable situation where
their life is in jeopardy and incompromise, or they may say
something that will involve themto feel even more triggered,
(31:30):
it's not worth it. Get the hell out of there.
Save yourself, you know life. I mean, it's self preservation
is of the utmost importance always.
So that has always been a cornerstone of our podcast.
Anytime we talk about any of these type of subjects, it's
about listen content in the subject matter we're speaking
about. True in a lot of ways, but that
doesn't mean that you have to adopt it if you feel
(31:52):
uncomfortable and unsafe, so. Right.
And so that politeness and decorum could look like a lot of
different things. It could look like excusing
yourself. It could look like disengaging
when you want to engage. It could look like coming up
with some nonviolent communication things if you feel
like you're not necessarily outed just by your physical
(32:15):
appearance. That's a really interesting
opinion. And sometimes even that is very
fiery, but it protects you in the way to say, this is where I
stand, but I'm not going to engage.
True. I can't tell you how many times
I've not said something or somebody's telling a story about
some queer person I met and making fun of that person or
whatever adventure they were having and I bit my tongue
(32:38):
because I didn't feel it was one.
I wasn't going to change any minds in that moment and what am
I going to do? Just out myself to my Co worker
at that point? Because I feel that his take on
the event is a little insensitive.
It's tough. It's.
Very, very tough. Yeah, it's very, very tough.
And if you, for example, you have dual gender privilege in a
(33:00):
sense that you're protected, butyou have your maleness for most
of the time. And for me, I'm assist female,
my bisexuality, I'm not leading with it for my appearance.
So it feels almost when something happens like this
where someone's making fun of a trans person or whatever, it is
rare. It is rare that I won't speak up
(33:22):
for them or speak out depending on the group that I'm with.
But you know, like we talked about today, you got to know
your safe spaces and if it's just good and your audience.
So if it's just going to make a few people be stunned, you know
what I mean? Or if you want to deal with a
full out argument, no, but like you and I are at different
(33:44):
angles of it, I'm at a differentangle than you are in terms of
transness. We're all just trying to get an
angle working on our different angles.
We're just trying to figure out how to move through this really,
really, really scary time. I know I don't like it.
I don't like it. Yeah.
But thank you so much for this topic.
It really? Yeah.
(34:04):
Yeah, I really, I will tell you that while I was struggling with
what I was even thinking about the topic again, I did a lot of
research before today. And while you and I actually
have had two podcasts of recordings, three if you count
the appearance in the same week,I still want to give time to
this. And the one last thing that I
read, which I thought was fantastic, it says marginalized
(34:27):
people are not society's therapists, educators or moral
compasses by default. Expecting them to carry that
weight while being attacked is not empathy, it's exploitation.
True justice asks more from those who have more to give.
So yeah, I thought it was a really amazing statements that
(34:48):
really just set my brain afire. Really chomping at the bid for
this conversation. And again, will restate that
always keep yourself safe. Only do what's comfortable for
you. Yes, we all know that sometimes
confrontation is uncomfortable, especially when it's not your
default. But also there are proper places
(35:08):
for anger and confrontation and conversation and discourse that
may be needed. And if you feel that you have a
good opportunity and a good position and the relative safety
to speak from that point, I think what we're trying to say
is, you know what? We don't have to be the High
Road every time. It's probably helpful to keep us
(35:29):
safe and keep us secure and keepus living and breathing.
But you know, if you do find that there is an opportunity to
speak up on your behalf and on behalf of people in the
community, please do. That's why I try to do in my
little pockets the work we do together.
If you got it in you, awesome, because the world needs
advocates and keep on doing whatyou're doing.
And hopefully it won't just be smiles and sweetness that brings
(35:54):
us to to the table, but maybe a little bit more more of that
pride chip, more of the marching, more of the advocacy
that's a little more out there in in battle ready.
Yeah, and feeling like you have to be the perfect representative
of the trans or queer community,figuring out where does that
pressure come from? Where does it come from and who
(36:15):
benefits from it? And not losing yourself because
you're trying so hard to be thisperfect idea.
We could look around this messy world and say, well, perfect
doesn't exist. Everyone's broken, everyone's
shattered. F perfect, right?
But we still have this perfection mindset that comes
from somewhere deep and true. And we're trying so hard to be,
(36:37):
quote, good. So thank you again for this
episode. I hope that our listeners
enjoyed it. There's a lot of really good
Nuggets for thought. Yeah.
We are all just perfectly imperfect.
And we're all just trying to do the best we can with the mosaic
that is our lives. Very.
True. So bye bye bye bye bye bye bye
(37:00):
bye for now. Wait.
Don't forget to listen to a new episode every Wednesday.
Where was I? Bye for now.
I don't even know what to do at that point.
I will say thank you for listening.
Everyone please comment on this episode.
This is one of those very powerful episodes I believe that
(37:20):
could use a lot of conversation.Would love to hear from you, got
your thoughts and maybe we can return on another episode.
And while Julie says bye bye, bye bye for now, I will say in
response to that, until next time, you can find me on
Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing and
(37:42):
on Instagram at Savannah Hawk. Remember, that's HAUK.
And to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hanger or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhanger.com.
(38:04):
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
Popular Podcasts
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.