July 9, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode, Savannah shares with Julie the fact that her friends, when in town for the weekend, asked if all the male-to-female crossdressers in the room could be considered LARPers. Live Action Role Players embody fantasy and sci/fi characters of their own creation, coming together as a community to "live" out their fantasy realm in real life ... whether that be as a convention center, a city park, or at someone's residence. There are many contrasts and comparisons to the lives of cosplayers, crossplayers, LARPers, and gender expansion. At the end of the day, each allows the wearer of the identity to live more "out loud"!
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Hi, Julie, How are you today?
I'm good, I'm good. I woke up, oh whoopsie 8 minutes
ago. Nords.
(00:50):
And yeah, I mean, we've been, you know, chit chatting a little
bit before this moment and I hadto get a pillow from my back at
one point, right? My body is still not back into
tip top shape from my lower backinjury.
Oh yeah, that's right. So I had to get a small pillow
(01:12):
from the couch before we started, and as I told you a
little bit before that I'm wearing Ruby slippers.
Yes, you did tell me that. You heard me.
I love it. I found it at a thrift store.
Oh. Sweet.
Are they very Aussie? Let's just say they don't have a
costume. They don't have a costume store
(01:35):
sticker for nothing. Fun Chasma.
Those are freaking epic. I love those.
So I figured that whenever I'm doing my fox and hanger work,
especially when I'm at the desk,I will be wearing my Ruby
slippers just sitting, you know?Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. No, but I know I love it too.
Listen, I have to tell you something hilarious that
(01:58):
happened this week. So do you remember I was on a
coaching call dot dot dot dot pause.
Come back to right now with you and I.
Do you remember when we were on Zoom one time and I did some
sort of statement that was like larger than life and like
hitting a specific point and theZoom did fireworks behind and we
(02:20):
were both trying not to talk through the thing, but we're
both like, what the WTF, right? And occasionally there was like
a thumbs up, right all. Right.
I was on a coaching hall. We were in the heart of a
moment. We were together.
We were just going there and I was about to say this amazing
statement and they were about tohave this.
They did have this, like, amazing impact.
(02:42):
OK, right as that part happened,not only were there fireworks,
there was a glow light in which I was totally illuminated.
And have you ever seen the movieTrolls?
There was like poppies, like rainbow sprinkles coming from my
head. It was an entire club scene.
(03:03):
Wow. Right so I know I have the
newest updates all on zoom but if y'all don't have them update
that shit because it is in alignment with your total
crescendo in terms of emotional harmony.
It was wild. Both of us looked at each other
and we were like, Oh my God, didthat just happen?
(03:24):
That's fantastic. So I just wanted to share that
with. You.
I love that I keep meaning to figure out how that works and
why it works and where to turn it on or off, but it only
happens on your side. So maybe maybe my not updated
zoom is where the problem is where I can do it or it doesn't
AI generate all these cool things for me, but I love that
right. I love that you get.
Fireworks. Clearly, you and I have not hit
(03:45):
the emotional crescendo needed for this epic explosion of
stuff, but, you know, just expect it.
First of all, we're always hitting the crescendos.
I don't even know fireworks to tell me that we hit in the.
Fireworks troll sparkles. Alicia, if you're hearing me, do
you remember that shit? It was crazy.
(04:08):
So that being said, I got the finally some good news on this
long-awaited and long gestating.You've been hearing me talk
about it for two years. Like I'm going to get my books
done. Finally, finally, finally,
finally I got the final edits done for book 1.
So those are back. I am currently working on the
(04:29):
first round of professional edits for book 2, which I did
this weekend. 200 pages of the almost 300 pages, the editor has
book 3. So once I'm done with my going
through book 2, I'm going to reprint and give her those back
as well. So yeah, we're, you know,
nearing the finish line. Can't guarantee a 2025
(04:49):
publication date, but I am happythat I'm finally at this point
because this is where things start really coming together
fairly quickly. Very, very excited.
Of your sci-fi series. Yes, yeah, my little young adult
dystopian sci-fi coming of age queer story.
Right. YA with an LGBTQIA, yeah, it's
(05:12):
like I don't think they have theplus anymore.
Do they? I don't know.
There's so much. It's an alphabet soup of
queerness and I love. It and we love it 5 month June
Hello we love it yes. Yes, although at this point I
think we'll be in July when thisepisode airs, but that's OK.
So we will posthumously say, have deprived.
(05:33):
Very exciting. Yes, so that's right where I'm
at right now. That's all I got going on, Judy.
Still in Connecticut, so still just hanging out and yeah, just
making it through the day, making it through the week, and
always happy to reconnect with you.
Always happy to reconnect with you.
(05:55):
And as you're talking about yourbooks and maybe think of someone
who booked this look book, who always does these fantasy books,
right? We've done a couple different
fantasy books. It's fantasy adjacent, but it's
historical fiction actually. So I guess in the literary world
that wouldn't be fantasy. I get to do a lookbook page
throughout the decade. So I'm doing one page that is
(06:17):
starting in the 70s, 80s, nineties, early 2000 and today.
And I get to create outfits thatare in tune with their style,
body type, and all that with theintention for them to buy.
But I get to honor these amazingdecades and I get to write a
little bit of historical fiction, slash fantasy a little
(06:39):
bit as opposed to style notes. So I just wanted to share that.
That's awesome. And it's funny you say that
because as soon as you said fromthe 70s, eighties, and I'm
thinking of music, seventies, 80s today, bringing you the hits
and I'm like, wait, the 80s is classic rock now I'm old anyway.
(07:00):
But since you were Speaking of through the ages with your
amazing fantasy look books, because when you said fantasy,
I'm thinking fantasy to go with my storytelling in my books.
What I wanted to talk about today is something that came up
when my pals were here a few weeks ago and we're just chit
(07:21):
chatting and talking and conversing.
They were just like a blurted out statement, which was are we
Larpers? That was just thrown out there.
And I'm like, huh, Well, I said Julie and I just did an episode
on cosplay as it relates to cross dressing.
But the idea of Larping I reallyhadn't thought of because one,
(07:42):
I'm not a Larper, I haven't fallen into the classic sense of
a Larping, of Larping. And two, I was so concentrating
on how cosplay and cross play influences or can be used for
cross dressing that I really never thought about Larping.
The first thing obviously is what the heck is Larping?
(08:03):
I mean, that's the first thing to figure out.
And for anybody not in the Larping community, more Dungeon
and Dragons live back. So it's live action role play.
If you are a fan of Fox Machina,the cartoon series on Amazon
that stemmed from a YouTube Twitch channel, series from
(08:24):
Critical Role. And that Critical Role series
has three campaigns and each of those campaigns has people
sitting around a table with cameras on them.
And they are going through as characters in this campaign.
And they have a dungeon master, lets them know what the
situation is and they have to react to it and have battles and
(08:44):
go on journeys and quests and all the things.
The only thing that it doesn't do, at least in terms of
Critical Role, is nobody's dressed up.
They are embodying the characters, but nobody's dressed
up with fairy ears and wings andall the armor.
So they're not doing that. But a lot of times, and I've
seen it in the movie with Paul Rudd called Role Models where he
(09:07):
was supposed to like Big Brother, these kids and the kids
were Larpers and they all went to a park on one weekend day and
they're all dressed up in their armor and their wizard cloaks
and they would spend a day chasing each other around having
battles and enjoying that adventure inquest that they're
having. Long story short, Larping is
typically embodying a character.Usually if you have the
(09:31):
wherewithal, you would be dressed up as the fairy Princess
or the wizard or the knight or the Ranger or the dwarf and all
your like. Going to a Renaissance fair,
that kind of vibe, and then justspending the day or spending a
series of days or however you play it out as that character.
I understood what Larping meant when that thing was uttered or
(09:53):
that question was uttered. As are we Larpers.
I didn't really see it as Savannah being a Larper, but I
thought it would be a very fun, light conversation to have about
our thoughts on the subject matter.
All right, first of all, I was aLarper once.
What to tell me? Yes.
In high school, my favorite teacher, Mr. Robbins, the drama
(10:18):
teacher of the stars, the one who changed my life, he actually
ran a Larping place somewhere inMassachusetts called Legends,
Legends, Legends, Legends. And when I was think I was 18,
it was like my senior year, myself and a friend of he was a
(10:39):
techie. So it was very like, whoa,
you're crossing the lines. I'm talking about a student, not
Mr. Robbins. So Mr. Robbins ran Legends and
every weekend, maybe once a month or twice a month or every
quarter, they would have this event.
And I had gone with my friend Andy Knox, who is also in the
theater. Andy Knox, did you get the
(11:01):
knocking? I did I.
Did and we got in our car and wedrove from the boarding school
all the way to wherever it was in New England for this LAR Ping
event. Now I felt very chosen because
there was this mystical invitation to help support this
LAR Ping event. I wasn't going as a guest, I was
(11:23):
going as part of the workers that made this kind of thing
happened. And that would mean not doing
just one role, but fulfilling a lot of different roles.
Now I'm thinking I don't know what to expect.
And of course, I'm talking to Andy the whole time who has
already been in the scene as we're driving up there.
Like, what is it? He's don't worry about it.
(11:46):
Just read the legends rule book.There was like this mystical
book that had all these rules about the weapon tree and the
rooting and the the characters and the all this stuff, which
all right, first of all, I'm dyslexic and we just tackled
Much Ado About Nothing, that Shakespearean play, which is
already wow. Now going into the other world
(12:07):
where they have different currencies, weapons, they have
whatever. He was just like, just read over
the terms, get to know the game layout.
I'm like the game layout. So we arrived there, OK, And
there were people coming in tents, participants, players, if
you will. And then there was us who all
(12:28):
packed ourselves into like a double wide trailer where there
was, I'm staring out right now and drawing blank on the word,
but basically a place where you hang your clothes.
Okay, a wardrobe brack. Okay, there, there were wardrobe
brack after wardrobe brack that just basically cut the room in
half with all these costumes. Okay, there were furs.
(12:51):
There were a lot of burlap sacks.
There was, when I say there are furs, I meant there were furs
sectioned in different groups. You could tell there was, this
was a team outfit, you know, andthen their individual outfits
that I noticed that there was makeup and there was ears.
Of course, I love this. There was pointy fairy ears and
(13:12):
there were noses. And all the people who worked at
the event who were responsible for making this happen, they
were all very much theater folk,you know, techies, and they were
very much in there. Oh, wow.
How are you, Margaret? Oh, I'm great, Harry.
This was before any of the social media where these Larping
communities or the workers couldformulate ideas and plans.
(13:34):
There was probably a general e-mail that came to everything,
but I was petrified. Like, where am I and everyone
knows what they're doing? And so, like, I held on to my
friend Andy's hand, and then he led me over to where my drama
teacher was. Like, he was wearing some ears
and getting some gum paste on. And he would trust me.
He looked like what was a Gollumgoth.
(13:54):
I don't know what it was, my precious.
Yeah. I'm not in the scene with you.
Got nerds. So I'm and he's like, Julie, I'm
so glad you could make it. Hey Andy, give it a hug and this
that. And as much as I felt like, oh,
this is great. I'm in I'm in the inner circle.
I was petrified and he's I'm like, I'm petrified and he's OK.
(14:16):
Just put on like this kind of outfit.
You're going to go out with Andy, you're going to roam
around the whatever the terrain,and you're just going to get a
sense and you're going to interact with people.
And I'm like, OK. And he gave me a few like
character things, like intentions and all that kind of
thing. Yeah.
And so flash forward to the gamebeing quote, alive.
(14:39):
OK? I literally at one point went
from being a Tavern wench where I was responsible for people who
would give me fake money and I was responsible for saying the
words swine or beast. Something was Turkey and
something was roast. OK, I'm not here.
Then I vaguely remember rolling around the leaves with some
(15:02):
Tavern player that was not a part of the back story and we
were role-playing and I was making out.
I think that was not part of therules and I think I had met him
months before at some other contacts.
Any who I was breaking the rules, then I was like a fairy
that would just basically be like, you know, with the ears
and I didn't say anything, but Iwould root people and that would
(15:23):
be where I throw like a giant sack at their feet and the
giggle like a nymph into the woods.
I love it, I love it. At some point I was in a team
fighting challenge, which I did not appreciate because I had a
giant mask on. I couldn't see and who wants to
fight who? That was like during the day at
some Star Wars infested grass filled Knoll with the sun beaten
(15:46):
down and all these players and all the people that worked there
were trying to fight each other and it's not fun for me, OK.
And you know, I threw me on his back and I went back to
headquarters because I'm like, this is bean.
I'd rather be any suckling some cider and having some Donuts.
So yeah, it was a very full experience, but it was LARP.
(16:08):
It was. I don't.
Know you were larped out, and that's for damn sure.
Yeah, it was like, I was behind the scenes.
But yeah, these people would go with full character.
It's not like when they got to their tent, they'd be like, oh,
that was a great game. They'd only wait until the last
day of the weekend where we all break character and then break
bread. And they'd be like, oh, good
game. We're going to remember when you
(16:29):
were in the field doing the thing And I'm like, Oh my God,
Get Me Out of here. Totally.
Method the whole time. But I was only method for part
of it. So as soon as I hit this certain
trailer, I was like, oh, that was some shit.
But I had trouble and people hadtrouble who worked there.
I think they needed a beat like breaking out of character.
So they need a couch or something, the beast in them,
(16:52):
and then they'd slowly take off their outfits.
I don't know, Swiner Beast. Very visceral.
I will tell you that when I go to the Red Fair, Judy and I have
gone a couple of times and thereare those people who are larger
than life in terms of being thatcharacter and makes the whole
experience much more immersed. Hey, welcome Val villain.
(17:15):
You know, and they just are so in their character, he just
like. Bonnie, who would like a meat
stick off the lussy of the Yeah.Except for a fact when you
actually pay with your credit card and you take the Turkey leg
back to a picnic table, then youkind of feel like you're not
immersed. But but it's always a good time
and I and I was always very happy.
(17:35):
It was very happy experience to see just be in this world.
You could say the same thing fordown here in South Carolina, we
have a lot of venues for Halloween.
It's not just a haunted house, It's a whole venue of very much
like a rent fair, but only for that one month before Halloween
where everybody's dressed up. Or like when you go to Six Flags
and it's Spooky October and everybody's in character chasing
(17:58):
around and we have all these different types.
Of like the Dickens Fair. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
If all these things that can be very immersive, whether you are
a visitor into the world and just enjoying our bails
immersions or you are part of the cast doing that thing which
is very fun. I would love to do it at one
point, but only if it's in the fall because summer is hot.
(18:19):
That's a great story, brother. No, but I always want to do the
Dickens Fair, the May fair. If anyone has ever had a
background in theater in any wayor loves the idea of falling
into a time period or character,I think that this is really
great. And I do think as we're going to
get into, in terms of some of the crossovers between the cross
(18:40):
dressing world and this sort of live role-playing fantasy world,
you know, it's definitely an immersive experience in the
sense that there's makeup and there's clothing and there's
hair and there's a definite transformative aspect that
leaves the person that you are normally in the dust.
And also just to be expansive, because we're both gender
expansive. We are gender expensive in our
(19:02):
own ways. One thing I wanted to add into
this conversation is not just Larping, because Larping is by
nature you physically are wearing costumes, you're
physically in makeup, and typically you're in an
environment that is all-encompassing to that
mystical realm or that scene or that community.
The one thing I want to add intothis conversation as well is the
(19:22):
following. When people create characters
for World of Warcraft or anything that's an online role
play game, there's so many of uswho use those instances, create
a character that is not of theirbiology, that they're creating
female characters and giving it the attributes to run into that
online open world gaming platform and be that person.
(19:46):
So there's a lot of people who use this online role play to do
something very similar in the intersectionality of cross play,
cross dressing, leaning into gender expansiveness.
And that's again, including, forme at least, I've heard so much
of this where I've heard a lot of people in our queer community
say, Oh, yeah, when I do any of those online games, I usually
(20:08):
create for myself a female character with all its mechanics
so they can feel like they're inthat character in that world.
Good point, Good point. Thank you.
I think when we're exploring this topic, I want to mention
the fact that in the kind of live role-playing world, there
is an opportunity to cross gender in terms of your
(20:32):
expression. And like you just mentioned in
video games, I think that especially in the virtual realm,
this can be the first kind of moments you have to play with
cross gender play. I think also with the
conventions that you talk about,what's called the superhero.
Out of the comic cons. Yes, the comic cons.
(20:53):
That's another Safeway to play with that intentionally and say,
let me just test the waters here.
This is a safe place for me to come and I'm going to be a
feminine fair. Even back then, back in the late
90s, it definitely was a group of people that were safe.
I think in terms of acceptance for different types of people,
(21:16):
it definitely was a crew that was like, OK, these are, I wanna
say these are the rejects, but these are the bottom of the
barrel people coming together. And some of them were shorter,
some of them were taller, some of them looked more masculine,
some of them looked more feminine.
It definitely was a place to become whatever it is that you
dream, dreameth you becometh. Yeah, if you will.
(21:38):
And there is community there by the fact of like if you go to
anime cons or if you go to medieval cons or comic cons, you
can find your people there. I think that the main difference
between cosplaying and LARP in in its variations or its
iterations is that one is just like I'm walking the floor.
I dressed up as my favorite character.
(22:00):
I'm now walking the con, lookingat the vendors, going to the
breakout shows, but I'm not actually doing anything
immersive. Like I'm walking around as that
character. And people may stop me and want
to take pictures because they like that character as well or
they like the costume design. But what you're not doing is
falling into a immersive world where you're playing out
(22:20):
something beyond. It's actually more inclusive to
who you are versus, well, I'm just dressing up and I'm gonna
go ride the train into the city and go to the Comic Con and then
come home. And it was fun.
Whereas this is like I found both my community and this realm
of being that I can explore. So what you just said can
definitely like those two sentences you just said just
(22:41):
right now can be translated completely to the cross dressing
landscape, to the idea of finding this community where I
can just live out this part of who I am in a very specific kind
of way. You know, if one was setting out
to step out cross dressing for the first time and they had this
background in live action role-playing games, they could
(23:04):
use that as a crutch or shield, say, OK, I'm just playing a
role, I'm just playing a role and use that to at least get
them out there to the event or whatever it is.
You know, there's a mindset thatyou can utilize for cross
dressing. But I do think that it's also
very different because you may be trying something out for the
(23:25):
first time, a part of yourself, but it doesn't feel to me like
you're playing a role in when you're playing your femme self.
Does that make sense? You're saying from a non larper
standpoint? I'm trying to see how the 2 are
different. Yeah, well, Cross.
Dressing would be. Trying to try to find that which
is within where is Larping is still externalizing.
(23:47):
Oh, I'm playing this fairy and it's.
Kind of I'm playing the playing this specific character, which
by all means it could be utilized as a modality or a
mental way to get yourself to this cross dressing event.
It could be used that way. OK, if I've done that, I can do
this right? There seems to be enough
connectivity that it could act as a nice bridge.
(24:08):
Yes. Well, I always like theater, so
now crossdressing. There's a connection.
There's a bridge. Yeah, I mean there's fairies in
real. I mean there are fairies in real
life, but not with the translucent wings and pointy
ears and tiaras and they can flyaround.
So obviously there is some mysticism, there is some
otherness to Larping and cosplaying versus cross dressing
(24:29):
or being gender expansive in ourown nature.
So yes, there is that kind of otherworldliness to it.
But in all these cases, in all these communities, there is that
safe magic circle that. We have.
Community of fitting in, even though you're trying to step out
and be something different, having all the people around you
gives you such a sense of being able to try out these more
(24:51):
inclusive things, these more expansive things.
And also it's safer because you're not saying, ah, me, this
is me. See me.
See me as who I really am authentically versus see my
character, Queen Latifah. Norman Nair.
Charlie Swift of 1000 Moons and 1000 1000 sunsets.
(25:13):
So there is some otherness to itthat kind of keeps you, yes,
protected from, I guess, making that decision.
Oh no, no, this is who I am. So it does give you that room to
play. And again, there are these Gray
areas. So if we're thinking about our
feminine self or our female exploration or our gender
expansiveness through expression, it can be very
(25:36):
similar to LARP ING the sense that it's situational or it's
not permanent at the cross dressings point of exploration.
Like it feels like something they can remove from themselves,
but there could be a little naughtiness or a little bit of
shame involved. That kind of crosses both
departments. Because when I think of LAR
Ping, I think of nerds, and whenI think of nerds, I think of
(25:58):
outsiders and the kids sitting doing Minecraft.
When they were with themselves and community, it was cool, but
to the outside public it was kind of like, oh, that's really
nerdy. And so they're struck with a
certain level of shame for whichthey're on the outskirts while
everyone's looking in. So there's a lot of beautiful
connections that I can draw between the communities.
(26:21):
I also think a beautiful thing about cross dressing is being
able to act a part of yourself that your male self isn't able
to act out or express or lean into.
Certain ways of moving your body, certain ways of sounding,
certain sound qualities of your voice.
You can play with that, adding pieces such as longer hair and
(26:43):
figuring out what that experience is like.
Adding larger breast forms or less breast forms to see how
that proportionally changes yourbody, altering your body in ways
that are completely feminizing. This is very much a cross
dressing thing, but I can also say that it is also infused
(27:05):
within live action role-playing as well.
The shape shifting and the trying things on and the ability
to act out on a certain part of your personality that may not
get airtime during your quote normal life.
Yep, Yep. Yeah, you're free from normal
societal constraints in that youcan investigate, you can explore
(27:27):
in a very safe environment because that environment is
fantasy or sci-fi or it's something that was built with
you in mind to be gender neutralor be post gender or be outside
the framework of male and femalebecause you can explore even
beyond just oh, I want a gender band.
But you can do things even beyond all that because if
(27:48):
you're living in this very sci-fi centric dystopian high
fantasy world, but you can be almost anything you want to be
when you look at things now where I'm going to be a Panther,
we could talk about furries, butwe're not in this way.
I'd be like, I'm this strange subclass of characters in this
world that is an animal that is a humanoid animal.
(28:08):
He to build upon all these different things because all
those things exist in a Dungeonsand Dragons framework.
That is absolutely true. And then you're talking also,
and this is about world buildingand you can take the framework
of the Larping event or community you're in and you can
use that as a way to expand beyond.
(28:29):
You said the rule book you had to read when you went to your
Legends event. And yes, there's a general
baseline framework and rule set,but within that you can do so
many more things that allows fornon gendered presentation or
third gender presentation. Or you can use it to be
(28:49):
aspirational to come up with something even beyond that,
which then once you boil that down to the real world can
inform decisions about where youwant to go.
I'll oppress forms, long hair, the different ways of presenting
that may seem perfect in a mystical landscape.
Yeah, In the real world, I probably would pair that down a
little bit so you can use that to be super exaggerated to see
(29:13):
where you want to live and then just bring it back down and pair
it down to reality when you wantto cross dress.
Sure. I think both elements or both
things that we're talking about today, the live actual
role-playing and cross dressing.There's this sense of euphoria
that hits when 1 is in their complete attire and when one is
(29:35):
living the dream in terms of being out and being expansive
and being expressive and interacting in the space that is
really, really affirming, reallybeautiful.
And at the end of it, and I knowfrom personal experience on both
sides, the LAR Ping side, as well as actually going to
Keystone and seeing the slow dismantling of presentation or
(30:02):
the kind of let down that comes at the end of an event, whether
it be out in a field somewhere with tents or at a hotel, is the
kind of let down that comes from, you know, being so high
and happy. And then what comes up must come
down. And the sadness of saying
goodbye to community, shutting the event down in terms of
(30:24):
putting all the costumes that were on these long hanging bars
back in the car and helping my drama teacher basically shut
down the camp for the month or whatever it was, is very, very
similar to the end of Keystone and people dismantling from
their famine to their masculine for those individuals that
(30:46):
wanted to keep on a little traceof hair or whatever it is.
I do recall one of the Larpers as well leaving in their hard
Viking hat. So it's there's, there's a lot
of similarities. And I do understand why why the
cross dressing community would have crossovers with both live
action role-playing and conventions.
(31:08):
I understand how they kind of work in harmony because there's
a lot of similarities and a lot of different.
And I am very interested after this episode airs, I really,
really encourage you, dear listeners, to comment below and
share your experience as it relates to this episode because
I am curious on your and all your thoughts.
(31:32):
Yeah, absolutely. And like that, I think the main
takeaways, again, super similar across a lot of queer
communities, One community, people who are like you aren't
engaged in the same practices asyou, while all the while being
different within the community. And not everybody's going to be
a fairy, not everybody's going to be a warrior, and everybody's
going to be a cleric. Same with the cross roasting
(31:53):
community. Some may be androgynous, some
may be amorphic, some may be dual gender, some might be high
femme. It's so diverse, it gets so
inclusive. And I think that's the two main
things. The opposite component or the
different component, I feel between cosplay and Larping is
that you are immersing yourself becoming very method in your
(32:15):
Larping. If you want to be, you get as
immersive as you want as that character, as Gwenda, the high
fairy Princess of the South Sea Mountains.
You could be that person. And while that seems a little
silly, and while it seems to be like that's not real life, but
you are immersing yourself in the guise of that character,
which then can be very affirmingto what you want to bring back
(32:38):
once you leave that camp, that community, that Meadow, that
park for the week. Right, right.
And we have done this work. We are on I don't know what
episode at this point. 2. 25 To really state and you all know,
all of you listeners know that. We know that, you know that we
(32:59):
know, OK, you know that cross dressing and being dual gender
and being transgender cannot be boiled down to the comparison
between a LAR ping weekend and your cross dressing S We know
that it's deeper than that. We know I mean, it can we did
and forget about it. But to note, there's so much
(33:21):
more at stake when it comes to cross dressing.
This has aspects of fantasy to it, of course, but Living with
Cross Dressing is available on Amazon.
Hey, there's three books there. But living with cross dressing
is so complicated. It can be so painful.
It can be a vehicle to realizingthat you are a woman, wholly and
(33:46):
completely. It is painful and it involves
compromise in ways that are far greater than the comparison that
we make today. So we just want to acknowledge
that we're not simply saying that the two are equal in any
ways. We are simply saying there are
some commonalities and some notes that can be taken from
(34:09):
both communities and worlds, andit's worthy to an understanding
and a great conversation about it.
We see you. We know your stories because you
share your stories with us. You tune in every week so we
know the thick of it and we loveyou and we're here for you.
(34:30):
And yeah, check out a Larping event in your new.
Room. You know what?
Actually, I'd be very interested.
Now that we're doing this episode, I'm like, hey, are
there anything local to me? The one thing I want to say
super quick it just as a reiteration, I agree with you
completely that this is not one that all our birds are gender
diverse or gender expansive. What we are saying is these are
(34:51):
great mechanisms to allow you toexplore your own identity in a
very Safeway, whether it be online World of War crafting
where you're a female character or the fact that you want to be
a fairy Princess in this weekendcommunity event or a Ren fair
without drawing more attention or unnecessary attention to your
(35:13):
normal life, quote UN quote. I think that's super, super
important. It just allows you to be
exploratory, and I think that's just another way that we're
coming to the table with opportunity.
Yeah, and if you think about Halloween as the Crossdresser's
Christmas, maybe view a Dickens Fair as the 4th of July, and
then maybe there's a Larping event that's Easter.
(35:35):
So in terms of your ability to show up and express yourself,
yeah, Yes to everything that Savannah said.
And I love you very much, Savannah, and I appreciate you
so much for all that you do for the podcast.
Thank you. You too.
There'd be no podcast without you, Julia.
Robinstein with literally without you literally thank you.
(35:58):
You are the editor. You make sure that we have the
graphics and that, yeah, I give myself credit, but I am just so
thankful for you for making thisdream actually happen.
Thank you so much. Yeah, so TuneIn every week for a
new episode. I mean, there will be some weeks
where we won't have a new episode where it will be spaced,
(36:20):
you know, generally every week. And please, please share our
episodes every week. Rag about us to your friends.
We really make it. Our intention is not to ever
monetize or get paid for this, interrupt our flow with a bunch
of different ads. So the only way to really get
(36:44):
this expanded and into the ethosof all the people that need it
is through your help. Exactly.
So bye for now. Until I got nothing to just say.
Till next time, you can find me on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or
(37:11):
at Living with Cross Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah
Hawk. Remember, that's HAUK.
And to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hanger or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhanger.com.
(37:35):
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Hi, Julie, How are you today?
I'm good, I'm good. I woke up, oh whoopsie 8 minutes
ago. Nords.
(00:50):
And yeah, I mean, we've been, you know, chit chatting a little
bit before this moment and I hadto get a pillow from my back at
one point, right? My body is still not back into
tip top shape from my lower backinjury.
Oh yeah, that's right. So I had to get a small pillow
(01:12):
from the couch before we started, and as I told you a
little bit before that I'm wearing Ruby slippers.
Yes, you did tell me that. You heard me.
I love it. I found it at a thrift store.
Oh. Sweet.
Are they very Aussie? Let's just say they don't have a
costume. They don't have a costume store
(01:35):
sticker for nothing. Fun Chasma.
Those are freaking epic. I love those.
So I figured that whenever I'm doing my fox and hanger work,
especially when I'm at the desk,I will be wearing my Ruby
slippers just sitting, you know?Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. No, but I know I love it too.
Listen, I have to tell you something hilarious that
(01:58):
happened this week. So do you remember I was on a
coaching call dot dot dot dot pause.
Come back to right now with you and I.
Do you remember when we were on Zoom one time and I did some
sort of statement that was like larger than life and like
hitting a specific point and theZoom did fireworks behind and we
(02:20):
were both trying not to talk through the thing, but we're
both like, what the WTF, right? And occasionally there was like
a thumbs up, right all. Right.
I was on a coaching hall. We were in the heart of a
moment. We were together.
We were just going there and I was about to say this amazing
statement and they were about tohave this.
They did have this, like, amazing impact.
(02:42):
OK, right as that part happened,not only were there fireworks,
there was a glow light in which I was totally illuminated.
And have you ever seen the movieTrolls?
There was like poppies, like rainbow sprinkles coming from my
head. It was an entire club scene.
(03:03):
Wow. Right so I know I have the
newest updates all on zoom but if y'all don't have them update
that shit because it is in alignment with your total
crescendo in terms of emotional harmony.
It was wild. Both of us looked at each other
and we were like, Oh my God, didthat just happen?
(03:24):
That's fantastic. So I just wanted to share that
with. You.
I love that I keep meaning to figure out how that works and
why it works and where to turn it on or off, but it only
happens on your side. So maybe maybe my not updated
zoom is where the problem is where I can do it or it doesn't
AI generate all these cool things for me, but I love that
right. I love that you get.
Fireworks. Clearly, you and I have not hit
(03:45):
the emotional crescendo needed for this epic explosion of
stuff, but, you know, just expect it.
First of all, we're always hitting the crescendos.
I don't even know fireworks to tell me that we hit in the.
Fireworks troll sparkles. Alicia, if you're hearing me, do
you remember that shit? It was crazy.
(04:08):
So that being said, I got the finally some good news on this
long-awaited and long gestating.You've been hearing me talk
about it for two years. Like I'm going to get my books
done. Finally, finally, finally,
finally I got the final edits done for book 1.
So those are back. I am currently working on the
(04:29):
first round of professional edits for book 2, which I did
this weekend. 200 pages of the almost 300 pages, the editor has
book 3. So once I'm done with my going
through book 2, I'm going to reprint and give her those back
as well. So yeah, we're, you know,
nearing the finish line. Can't guarantee a 2025
(04:49):
publication date, but I am happythat I'm finally at this point
because this is where things start really coming together
fairly quickly. Very, very excited.
Of your sci-fi series. Yes, yeah, my little young adult
dystopian sci-fi coming of age queer story.
Right. YA with an LGBTQIA, yeah, it's
(05:12):
like I don't think they have theplus anymore.
Do they? I don't know.
There's so much. It's an alphabet soup of
queerness and I love. It and we love it 5 month June
Hello we love it yes. Yes, although at this point I
think we'll be in July when thisepisode airs, but that's OK.
So we will posthumously say, have deprived.
(05:33):
Very exciting. Yes, so that's right where I'm
at right now. That's all I got going on, Judy.
Still in Connecticut, so still just hanging out and yeah, just
making it through the day, making it through the week, and
always happy to reconnect with you.
Always happy to reconnect with you.
(05:55):
And as you're talking about yourbooks and maybe think of someone
who booked this look book, who always does these fantasy books,
right? We've done a couple different
fantasy books. It's fantasy adjacent, but it's
historical fiction actually. So I guess in the literary world
that wouldn't be fantasy. I get to do a lookbook page
throughout the decade. So I'm doing one page that is
(06:17):
starting in the 70s, 80s, nineties, early 2000 and today.
And I get to create outfits thatare in tune with their style,
body type, and all that with theintention for them to buy.
But I get to honor these amazingdecades and I get to write a
little bit of historical fiction, slash fantasy a little
(06:39):
bit as opposed to style notes. So I just wanted to share that.
That's awesome. And it's funny you say that
because as soon as you said fromthe 70s, eighties, and I'm
thinking of music, seventies, 80s today, bringing you the hits
and I'm like, wait, the 80s is classic rock now I'm old anyway.
(07:00):
But since you were Speaking of through the ages with your
amazing fantasy look books, because when you said fantasy,
I'm thinking fantasy to go with my storytelling in my books.
What I wanted to talk about today is something that came up
when my pals were here a few weeks ago and we're just chit
(07:21):
chatting and talking and conversing.
They were just like a blurted out statement, which was are we
Larpers? That was just thrown out there.
And I'm like, huh, Well, I said Julie and I just did an episode
on cosplay as it relates to cross dressing.
But the idea of Larping I reallyhadn't thought of because one,
(07:42):
I'm not a Larper, I haven't fallen into the classic sense of
a Larping, of Larping. And two, I was so concentrating
on how cosplay and cross play influences or can be used for
cross dressing that I really never thought about Larping.
The first thing obviously is what the heck is Larping?
(08:03):
I mean, that's the first thing to figure out.
And for anybody not in the Larping community, more Dungeon
and Dragons live back. So it's live action role play.
If you are a fan of Fox Machina,the cartoon series on Amazon
that stemmed from a YouTube Twitch channel, series from
(08:24):
Critical Role. And that Critical Role series
has three campaigns and each of those campaigns has people
sitting around a table with cameras on them.
And they are going through as characters in this campaign.
And they have a dungeon master, lets them know what the
situation is and they have to react to it and have battles and
(08:44):
go on journeys and quests and all the things.
The only thing that it doesn't do, at least in terms of
Critical Role, is nobody's dressed up.
They are embodying the characters, but nobody's dressed
up with fairy ears and wings andall the armor.
So they're not doing that. But a lot of times, and I've
seen it in the movie with Paul Rudd called Role Models where he
(09:07):
was supposed to like Big Brother, these kids and the kids
were Larpers and they all went to a park on one weekend day and
they're all dressed up in their armor and their wizard cloaks
and they would spend a day chasing each other around having
battles and enjoying that adventure inquest that they're
having. Long story short, Larping is
typically embodying a character.Usually if you have the
(09:31):
wherewithal, you would be dressed up as the fairy Princess
or the wizard or the knight or the Ranger or the dwarf and all
your like. Going to a Renaissance fair,
that kind of vibe, and then justspending the day or spending a
series of days or however you play it out as that character.
I understood what Larping meant when that thing was uttered or
(09:53):
that question was uttered. As are we Larpers.
I didn't really see it as Savannah being a Larper, but I
thought it would be a very fun, light conversation to have about
our thoughts on the subject matter.
All right, first of all, I was aLarper once.
What to tell me? Yes.
In high school, my favorite teacher, Mr. Robbins, the drama
(10:18):
teacher of the stars, the one who changed my life, he actually
ran a Larping place somewhere inMassachusetts called Legends,
Legends, Legends, Legends. And when I was think I was 18,
it was like my senior year, myself and a friend of he was a
(10:39):
techie. So it was very like, whoa,
you're crossing the lines. I'm talking about a student, not
Mr. Robbins. So Mr. Robbins ran Legends and
every weekend, maybe once a month or twice a month or every
quarter, they would have this event.
And I had gone with my friend Andy Knox, who is also in the
theater. Andy Knox, did you get the
(11:01):
knocking? I did I.
Did and we got in our car and wedrove from the boarding school
all the way to wherever it was in New England for this LAR Ping
event. Now I felt very chosen because
there was this mystical invitation to help support this
LAR Ping event. I wasn't going as a guest, I was
(11:23):
going as part of the workers that made this kind of thing
happened. And that would mean not doing
just one role, but fulfilling a lot of different roles.
Now I'm thinking I don't know what to expect.
And of course, I'm talking to Andy the whole time who has
already been in the scene as we're driving up there.
Like, what is it? He's don't worry about it.
(11:46):
Just read the legends rule book.There was like this mystical
book that had all these rules about the weapon tree and the
rooting and the the characters and the all this stuff, which
all right, first of all, I'm dyslexic and we just tackled
Much Ado About Nothing, that Shakespearean play, which is
already wow. Now going into the other world
(12:07):
where they have different currencies, weapons, they have
whatever. He was just like, just read over
the terms, get to know the game layout.
I'm like the game layout. So we arrived there, OK, And
there were people coming in tents, participants, players, if
you will. And then there was us who all
(12:28):
packed ourselves into like a double wide trailer where there
was, I'm staring out right now and drawing blank on the word,
but basically a place where you hang your clothes.
Okay, a wardrobe brack. Okay, there, there were wardrobe
brack after wardrobe brack that just basically cut the room in
half with all these costumes. Okay, there were furs.
(12:51):
There were a lot of burlap sacks.
There was, when I say there are furs, I meant there were furs
sectioned in different groups. You could tell there was, this
was a team outfit, you know, andthen their individual outfits
that I noticed that there was makeup and there was ears.
Of course, I love this. There was pointy fairy ears and
(13:12):
there were noses. And all the people who worked at
the event who were responsible for making this happen, they
were all very much theater folk,you know, techies, and they were
very much in there. Oh, wow.
How are you, Margaret? Oh, I'm great, Harry.
This was before any of the social media where these Larping
communities or the workers couldformulate ideas and plans.
(13:34):
There was probably a general e-mail that came to everything,
but I was petrified. Like, where am I and everyone
knows what they're doing? And so, like, I held on to my
friend Andy's hand, and then he led me over to where my drama
teacher was. Like, he was wearing some ears
and getting some gum paste on. And he would trust me.
He looked like what was a Gollumgoth.
(13:54):
I don't know what it was, my precious.
Yeah. I'm not in the scene with you.
Got nerds. So I'm and he's like, Julie, I'm
so glad you could make it. Hey Andy, give it a hug and this
that. And as much as I felt like, oh,
this is great. I'm in I'm in the inner circle.
I was petrified and he's I'm like, I'm petrified and he's OK.
(14:16):
Just put on like this kind of outfit.
You're going to go out with Andy, you're going to roam
around the whatever the terrain,and you're just going to get a
sense and you're going to interact with people.
And I'm like, OK. And he gave me a few like
character things, like intentions and all that kind of
thing. Yeah.
And so flash forward to the gamebeing quote, alive.
(14:39):
OK? I literally at one point went
from being a Tavern wench where I was responsible for people who
would give me fake money and I was responsible for saying the
words swine or beast. Something was Turkey and
something was roast. OK, I'm not here.
Then I vaguely remember rolling around the leaves with some
(15:02):
Tavern player that was not a part of the back story and we
were role-playing and I was making out.
I think that was not part of therules and I think I had met him
months before at some other contacts.
Any who I was breaking the rules, then I was like a fairy
that would just basically be like, you know, with the ears
and I didn't say anything, but Iwould root people and that would
(15:23):
be where I throw like a giant sack at their feet and the
giggle like a nymph into the woods.
I love it, I love it. At some point I was in a team
fighting challenge, which I did not appreciate because I had a
giant mask on. I couldn't see and who wants to
fight who? That was like during the day at
some Star Wars infested grass filled Knoll with the sun beaten
(15:46):
down and all these players and all the people that worked there
were trying to fight each other and it's not fun for me, OK.
And you know, I threw me on his back and I went back to
headquarters because I'm like, this is bean.
I'd rather be any suckling some cider and having some Donuts.
So yeah, it was a very full experience, but it was LARP.
(16:08):
It was. I don't.
Know you were larped out, and that's for damn sure.
Yeah, it was like, I was behind the scenes.
But yeah, these people would go with full character.
It's not like when they got to their tent, they'd be like, oh,
that was a great game. They'd only wait until the last
day of the weekend where we all break character and then break
bread. And they'd be like, oh, good
game. We're going to remember when you
(16:29):
were in the field doing the thing And I'm like, Oh my God,
Get Me Out of here. Totally.
Method the whole time. But I was only method for part
of it. So as soon as I hit this certain
trailer, I was like, oh, that was some shit.
But I had trouble and people hadtrouble who worked there.
I think they needed a beat like breaking out of character.
So they need a couch or something, the beast in them,
(16:52):
and then they'd slowly take off their outfits.
I don't know, Swiner Beast. Very visceral.
I will tell you that when I go to the Red Fair, Judy and I have
gone a couple of times and thereare those people who are larger
than life in terms of being thatcharacter and makes the whole
experience much more immersed. Hey, welcome Val villain.
(17:15):
You know, and they just are so in their character, he just
like. Bonnie, who would like a meat
stick off the lussy of the Yeah.Except for a fact when you
actually pay with your credit card and you take the Turkey leg
back to a picnic table, then youkind of feel like you're not
immersed. But but it's always a good time
and I and I was always very happy.
(17:35):
It was very happy experience to see just be in this world.
You could say the same thing fordown here in South Carolina, we
have a lot of venues for Halloween.
It's not just a haunted house, It's a whole venue of very much
like a rent fair, but only for that one month before Halloween
where everybody's dressed up. Or like when you go to Six Flags
and it's Spooky October and everybody's in character chasing
(17:58):
around and we have all these different types.
Of like the Dickens Fair. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
If all these things that can be very immersive, whether you are
a visitor into the world and just enjoying our bails
immersions or you are part of the cast doing that thing which
is very fun. I would love to do it at one
point, but only if it's in the fall because summer is hot.
(18:19):
That's a great story, brother. No, but I always want to do the
Dickens Fair, the May fair. If anyone has ever had a
background in theater in any wayor loves the idea of falling
into a time period or character,I think that this is really
great. And I do think as we're going to
get into, in terms of some of the crossovers between the cross
(18:40):
dressing world and this sort of live role-playing fantasy world,
you know, it's definitely an immersive experience in the
sense that there's makeup and there's clothing and there's
hair and there's a definite transformative aspect that
leaves the person that you are normally in the dust.
And also just to be expansive, because we're both gender
expansive. We are gender expensive in our
(19:02):
own ways. One thing I wanted to add into
this conversation is not just Larping, because Larping is by
nature you physically are wearing costumes, you're
physically in makeup, and typically you're in an
environment that is all-encompassing to that
mystical realm or that scene or that community.
The one thing I want to add intothis conversation as well is the
(19:22):
following. When people create characters
for World of Warcraft or anything that's an online role
play game, there's so many of uswho use those instances, create
a character that is not of theirbiology, that they're creating
female characters and giving it the attributes to run into that
online open world gaming platform and be that person.
(19:46):
So there's a lot of people who use this online role play to do
something very similar in the intersectionality of cross play,
cross dressing, leaning into gender expansiveness.
And that's again, including, forme at least, I've heard so much
of this where I've heard a lot of people in our queer community
say, Oh, yeah, when I do any of those online games, I usually
(20:08):
create for myself a female character with all its mechanics
so they can feel like they're inthat character in that world.
Good point, Good point. Thank you.
I think when we're exploring this topic, I want to mention
the fact that in the kind of live role-playing world, there
is an opportunity to cross gender in terms of your
(20:32):
expression. And like you just mentioned in
video games, I think that especially in the virtual realm,
this can be the first kind of moments you have to play with
cross gender play. I think also with the
conventions that you talk about,what's called the superhero.
Out of the comic cons. Yes, the comic cons.
(20:53):
That's another Safeway to play with that intentionally and say,
let me just test the waters here.
This is a safe place for me to come and I'm going to be a
feminine fair. Even back then, back in the late
90s, it definitely was a group of people that were safe.
I think in terms of acceptance for different types of people,
(21:16):
it definitely was a crew that was like, OK, these are, I wanna
say these are the rejects, but these are the bottom of the
barrel people coming together. And some of them were shorter,
some of them were taller, some of them looked more masculine,
some of them looked more feminine.
It definitely was a place to become whatever it is that you
dream, dreameth you becometh. Yeah, if you will.
(21:38):
And there is community there by the fact of like if you go to
anime cons or if you go to medieval cons or comic cons, you
can find your people there. I think that the main difference
between cosplaying and LARP in in its variations or its
iterations is that one is just like I'm walking the floor.
I dressed up as my favorite character.
(22:00):
I'm now walking the con, lookingat the vendors, going to the
breakout shows, but I'm not actually doing anything
immersive. Like I'm walking around as that
character. And people may stop me and want
to take pictures because they like that character as well or
they like the costume design. But what you're not doing is
falling into a immersive world where you're playing out
(22:20):
something beyond. It's actually more inclusive to
who you are versus, well, I'm just dressing up and I'm gonna
go ride the train into the city and go to the Comic Con and then
come home. And it was fun.
Whereas this is like I found both my community and this realm
of being that I can explore. So what you just said can
definitely like those two sentences you just said just
(22:41):
right now can be translated completely to the cross dressing
landscape, to the idea of finding this community where I
can just live out this part of who I am in a very specific kind
of way. You know, if one was setting out
to step out cross dressing for the first time and they had this
background in live action role-playing games, they could
(23:04):
use that as a crutch or shield, say, OK, I'm just playing a
role, I'm just playing a role and use that to at least get
them out there to the event or whatever it is.
You know, there's a mindset thatyou can utilize for cross
dressing. But I do think that it's also
very different because you may be trying something out for the
(23:25):
first time, a part of yourself, but it doesn't feel to me like
you're playing a role in when you're playing your femme self.
Does that make sense? You're saying from a non larper
standpoint? I'm trying to see how the 2 are
different. Yeah, well, Cross.
Dressing would be. Trying to try to find that which
is within where is Larping is still externalizing.
(23:47):
Oh, I'm playing this fairy and it's.
Kind of I'm playing the playing this specific character, which
by all means it could be utilized as a modality or a
mental way to get yourself to this cross dressing event.
It could be used that way. OK, if I've done that, I can do
this right? There seems to be enough
connectivity that it could act as a nice bridge.
(24:08):
Yes. Well, I always like theater, so
now crossdressing. There's a connection.
There's a bridge. Yeah, I mean there's fairies in
real. I mean there are fairies in real
life, but not with the translucent wings and pointy
ears and tiaras and they can flyaround.
So obviously there is some mysticism, there is some
otherness to Larping and cosplaying versus cross dressing
(24:29):
or being gender expansive in ourown nature.
So yes, there is that kind of otherworldliness to it.
But in all these cases, in all these communities, there is that
safe magic circle that. We have.
Community of fitting in, even though you're trying to step out
and be something different, having all the people around you
gives you such a sense of being able to try out these more
(24:51):
inclusive things, these more expansive things.
And also it's safer because you're not saying, ah, me, this
is me. See me.
See me as who I really am authentically versus see my
character, Queen Latifah. Norman Nair.
Charlie Swift of 1000 Moons and 1000 1000 sunsets.
(25:13):
So there is some otherness to itthat kind of keeps you, yes,
protected from, I guess, making that decision.
Oh no, no, this is who I am. So it does give you that room to
play. And again, there are these Gray
areas. So if we're thinking about our
feminine self or our female exploration or our gender
expansiveness through expression, it can be very
(25:36):
similar to LARP ING the sense that it's situational or it's
not permanent at the cross dressings point of exploration.
Like it feels like something they can remove from themselves,
but there could be a little naughtiness or a little bit of
shame involved. That kind of crosses both
departments. Because when I think of LAR
Ping, I think of nerds, and whenI think of nerds, I think of
(25:58):
outsiders and the kids sitting doing Minecraft.
When they were with themselves and community, it was cool, but
to the outside public it was kind of like, oh, that's really
nerdy. And so they're struck with a
certain level of shame for whichthey're on the outskirts while
everyone's looking in. So there's a lot of beautiful
connections that I can draw between the communities.
(26:21):
I also think a beautiful thing about cross dressing is being
able to act a part of yourself that your male self isn't able
to act out or express or lean into.
Certain ways of moving your body, certain ways of sounding,
certain sound qualities of your voice.
You can play with that, adding pieces such as longer hair and
(26:43):
figuring out what that experience is like.
Adding larger breast forms or less breast forms to see how
that proportionally changes yourbody, altering your body in ways
that are completely feminizing. This is very much a cross
dressing thing, but I can also say that it is also infused
(27:05):
within live action role-playing as well.
The shape shifting and the trying things on and the ability
to act out on a certain part of your personality that may not
get airtime during your quote normal life.
Yep, Yep. Yeah, you're free from normal
societal constraints in that youcan investigate, you can explore
(27:27):
in a very safe environment because that environment is
fantasy or sci-fi or it's something that was built with
you in mind to be gender neutralor be post gender or be outside
the framework of male and femalebecause you can explore even
beyond just oh, I want a gender band.
But you can do things even beyond all that because if
(27:48):
you're living in this very sci-fi centric dystopian high
fantasy world, but you can be almost anything you want to be
when you look at things now where I'm going to be a Panther,
we could talk about furries, butwe're not in this way.
I'd be like, I'm this strange subclass of characters in this
world that is an animal that is a humanoid animal.
(28:08):
He to build upon all these different things because all
those things exist in a Dungeonsand Dragons framework.
That is absolutely true. And then you're talking also,
and this is about world buildingand you can take the framework
of the Larping event or community you're in and you can
use that as a way to expand beyond.
(28:29):
You said the rule book you had to read when you went to your
Legends event. And yes, there's a general
baseline framework and rule set,but within that you can do so
many more things that allows fornon gendered presentation or
third gender presentation. Or you can use it to be
(28:49):
aspirational to come up with something even beyond that,
which then once you boil that down to the real world can
inform decisions about where youwant to go.
I'll oppress forms, long hair, the different ways of presenting
that may seem perfect in a mystical landscape.
Yeah, In the real world, I probably would pair that down a
little bit so you can use that to be super exaggerated to see
(29:13):
where you want to live and then just bring it back down and pair
it down to reality when you wantto cross dress.
Sure. I think both elements or both
things that we're talking about today, the live actual
role-playing and cross dressing.There's this sense of euphoria
that hits when 1 is in their complete attire and when one is
(29:35):
living the dream in terms of being out and being expansive
and being expressive and interacting in the space that is
really, really affirming, reallybeautiful.
And at the end of it, and I knowfrom personal experience on both
sides, the LAR Ping side, as well as actually going to
Keystone and seeing the slow dismantling of presentation or
(30:02):
the kind of let down that comes at the end of an event, whether
it be out in a field somewhere with tents or at a hotel, is the
kind of let down that comes from, you know, being so high
and happy. And then what comes up must come
down. And the sadness of saying
goodbye to community, shutting the event down in terms of
(30:24):
putting all the costumes that were on these long hanging bars
back in the car and helping my drama teacher basically shut
down the camp for the month or whatever it was, is very, very
similar to the end of Keystone and people dismantling from
their famine to their masculine for those individuals that
(30:46):
wanted to keep on a little traceof hair or whatever it is.
I do recall one of the Larpers as well leaving in their hard
Viking hat. So it's there's, there's a lot
of similarities. And I do understand why why the
cross dressing community would have crossovers with both live
action role-playing and conventions.
(31:08):
I understand how they kind of work in harmony because there's
a lot of similarities and a lot of different.
And I am very interested after this episode airs, I really,
really encourage you, dear listeners, to comment below and
share your experience as it relates to this episode because
I am curious on your and all your thoughts.
(31:32):
Yeah, absolutely. And like that, I think the main
takeaways, again, super similar across a lot of queer
communities, One community, people who are like you aren't
engaged in the same practices asyou, while all the while being
different within the community. And not everybody's going to be
a fairy, not everybody's going to be a warrior, and everybody's
going to be a cleric. Same with the cross roasting
(31:53):
community. Some may be androgynous, some
may be amorphic, some may be dual gender, some might be high
femme. It's so diverse, it gets so
inclusive. And I think that's the two main
things. The opposite component or the
different component, I feel between cosplay and Larping is
that you are immersing yourself becoming very method in your
(32:15):
Larping. If you want to be, you get as
immersive as you want as that character, as Gwenda, the high
fairy Princess of the South Sea Mountains.
You could be that person. And while that seems a little
silly, and while it seems to be like that's not real life, but
you are immersing yourself in the guise of that character,
which then can be very affirmingto what you want to bring back
(32:38):
once you leave that camp, that community, that Meadow, that
park for the week. Right, right.
And we have done this work. We are on I don't know what
episode at this point. 2. 25 To really state and you all know,
all of you listeners know that. We know that, you know that we
(32:59):
know, OK, you know that cross dressing and being dual gender
and being transgender cannot be boiled down to the comparison
between a LAR ping weekend and your cross dressing S We know
that it's deeper than that. We know I mean, it can we did
and forget about it. But to note, there's so much
(33:21):
more at stake when it comes to cross dressing.
This has aspects of fantasy to it, of course, but Living with
Cross Dressing is available on Amazon.
Hey, there's three books there. But living with cross dressing
is so complicated. It can be so painful.
It can be a vehicle to realizingthat you are a woman, wholly and
(33:46):
completely. It is painful and it involves
compromise in ways that are far greater than the comparison that
we make today. So we just want to acknowledge
that we're not simply saying that the two are equal in any
ways. We are simply saying there are
some commonalities and some notes that can be taken from
(34:09):
both communities and worlds, andit's worthy to an understanding
and a great conversation about it.
We see you. We know your stories because you
share your stories with us. You tune in every week so we
know the thick of it and we loveyou and we're here for you.
(34:30):
And yeah, check out a Larping event in your new.
Room. You know what?
Actually, I'd be very interested.
Now that we're doing this episode, I'm like, hey, are
there anything local to me? The one thing I want to say
super quick it just as a reiteration, I agree with you
completely that this is not one that all our birds are gender
diverse or gender expansive. What we are saying is these are
(34:51):
great mechanisms to allow you toexplore your own identity in a
very Safeway, whether it be online World of War crafting
where you're a female character or the fact that you want to be
a fairy Princess in this weekendcommunity event or a Ren fair
without drawing more attention or unnecessary attention to your
(35:13):
normal life, quote UN quote. I think that's super, super
important. It just allows you to be
exploratory, and I think that's just another way that we're
coming to the table with opportunity.
Yeah, and if you think about Halloween as the Crossdresser's
Christmas, maybe view a Dickens Fair as the 4th of July, and
then maybe there's a Larping event that's Easter.
(35:35):
So in terms of your ability to show up and express yourself,
yeah, Yes to everything that Savannah said.
And I love you very much, Savannah, and I appreciate you
so much for all that you do for the podcast.
Thank you. You too.
There'd be no podcast without you, Julia.
Robinstein with literally without you literally thank you.
(35:58):
You are the editor. You make sure that we have the
graphics and that, yeah, I give myself credit, but I am just so
thankful for you for making thisdream actually happen.
Thank you so much. Yeah, so TuneIn every week for a
new episode. I mean, there will be some weeks
where we won't have a new episode where it will be spaced,
(36:20):
you know, generally every week. And please, please share our
episodes every week. Rag about us to your friends.
We really make it. Our intention is not to ever
monetize or get paid for this, interrupt our flow with a bunch
of different ads. So the only way to really get
(36:44):
this expanded and into the ethosof all the people that need it
is through your help. Exactly.
So bye for now. Until I got nothing to just say.
Till next time, you can find me on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or
(37:11):
at Living with Cross Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah
Hawk. Remember, that's HAUK.
And to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hanger or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhanger.com.
(37:35):
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
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