July 16, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode, Julie discusses with Savannah the topic of the importance of biological CIS-female friends for gender-expansive people. The conversation starts with insecurities from trolling negative comments playing a key part in taking down a social media post about the topic, followed by a multi-faceted conversation in-air about the sense of safety and belonging that biological female friends provide that sometimes cannot be matched in friend groups anywhere else!
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, understanding
the feminine cross dressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hey, Julie. Hi, Savannah.
Hi, how are you? I'm hot as blaze as out.
Yeah, you're hot. Woo.
Girl, I mean, the temperature's 98.
(00:51):
I'd. Hate and I'm sweating my tits
off. Shit, I wish I had tits the
sweat off, you know what I'm saying?
But then it'd be all like a under boob sweat and all that
markings you get when you're just like, I'm taking this bra
off and I've had enough. You've had tit sweat when you've
had tit sweat like a what are those called?
Well, the breastplate. I love it.
Breastplates. Well, the breastplate's the
(01:12):
worst. That's the absolute worst
because they have these new models that's meshy, so it's
supposed to be more breathable, but the ones I get just are
silicone against your body. And I remember doing my boudoir
shoot when I did the costume change and I had the Robee know
it was sheer, it was polyester and it held in all the heat.
It was completely sheer but unbreathable.
(01:34):
And you could just see the line of sweat coming from the bottom
edge of it. Oh yeah, that was the worst.
That's why I'm always on the lookout for the halter top
Velcro one or the one that's gotthe big hole in the back.
Suppose a more breathable, but Idigress.
You made me think of something funny that happened today at the
Bar method class. What happened to the bar method?
(01:55):
Which it was a cardio bar methodclass.
So basically we used the ballet bar, but not as much as the
usual class, but it was cardio. There's a lot of moving and
stuff like that. Any who it's one of those higher
intensity classes faster pace, there's quick choreography and
the instructor today says I lovehow all of you ladies know to
(02:17):
wear black leggings on a cardio day and she said crotch sweat is
real ladies, I'm like. Oh my God, please don't
highlight it. I don't want my crotch sweat
highlighted. I know.
It's just, it's what I don't know to me.
I do it. I took it all like, metaphoric
like. Sure, I know it's all natural
and you know the body does what it does, but I'm still very
(02:38):
self-conscious about pit sway and I don't like feeling that
way and I don't like looking that way.
How about swamp ass? Yeah, not.
Good, not good. I heard a secret.
What I heard a secret that I don't know.
Maybe somebody new is in your life.
Someone new? I don't know what you're talking
about. Oh, you do know who I'm talking
and what I'm talking about, MissRubenstein.
(03:00):
So I have, I do I have the pleasure of having a an intern.
Yeah, an intern. She's really into fashion,
really into the cause, the community.
She is just brilliant and wonderful and she's going to be
(03:22):
helping me with some of the social media stuff.
OK, when she's done for you, send her my way because, you
know, maybe she knows this thingor two about editing or she my
social media. I said what she's done.
I'm saying what she's? Done.
When she's done, it will be August and I'll be sending her
back to school. Do you believe that all you
people who don't live in California, August is when we go
(03:44):
back, OK? I want to say August, late
August is around here too. I remember September.
I remember after Labor Day. Like second week of us.
Yeah, I remember being in the 1st and 2nd week of September
when I started my school semester, so I remember summer
being longer than it is these days.
I hope you may not be able to sense my enthusiasm because I'm
(04:07):
sweaty and dehydrated, but I'm so excited.
He is so freaking cool. The septum Pierce and the
piercing and that she's gorgeousand this hair that she can
change if she wants to. Like right now it's a deep red.
I just love having that younger energy.
And I'm hoping, you know, maybe she'll be interested in
(04:30):
volunteering during the a year. But I know that's wishful
thinking and she won't. But Oliver, if you're listening
to this, which I know you're not, please just, you know, hang
out a little. OK, first of all it should be a
prerequisite that she starts listening.
As an intern, you need to know the job, you need to know all
the channels and the only way toknow all the.
Channels all the channels she knows all the.
(04:51):
Yeah, but if she isn't listeningto that podcast, she's got to
put one podcast under her belt and tell her that this would be
the although this will be weeks in the future and she'll be back
at school by then. But anyway.
All right, but this is the one because it's my topic week.
Wait, have you shared anything about your life?
Check in. All right, I've done this maybe
(05:13):
twice, if not thrice before where I'm like really jumping
the gun on on talking about the topic and I haven't even checked
in with you and it's super rude and like a dash narcissist.
So I'm throw it on over to you. Well, tennis ball and.
Just, you know, there's really nothing going on for me.
You know, it's all right. So this episode is posting up
(05:38):
like a month in the future. So as the recording of this
episode, and we are doing this on a Wednesday evening, which
we've done once before recently.And the reason why is because
Father's Day has passed the weekbefore.
Judy came into town from Connecticut, so she was back
Monday to Monday. She just left two days ago to go
back to Connecticut to be there for her mom who is now doing
(06:02):
palliative radiation. So she gets 2 doses a day for
two days in a row. Wait two weeks, see how it's
going, rinse and repeat if necessary.
Shout out to everybody who's given amazing support on that
front for Judy and her mom whileshe was here.
I was like, Oh no, what do you want to do?
(06:22):
I mean, so it's like I tried to balance events and chillaxing.
And so we did a painting class where everybody paints the same
thing and did. You drink wine or.
No. Well, we don't drink.
Yeah, we don't drink. So we just.
It's called painting with A twist, but we just did the
painting part. So because there was no
(06:43):
Corkscrew to twist into our winebubbles, then we drifted in a
spa, basically 1000 lbs of Epsomsalt in water.
So you're super, super duper buoyant.
So you go into this big egg and you close the lid, and you how?
Was it? I want to do that someday.
I'm scared I'm be claustrophobic.
(07:03):
I don't know if you are claustrophobic, which I am not,
so I can't really speak to that.I'm not.
It's big enough that you're like, it's got like room to see
and move and it's got a lid. You can keep the lid partially
open so it's not so enclosed on you.
I will say it's different and cool as it was, I got a little
bored about 2/3 of the way through.
(07:23):
We only did 60 minutes each and by the 2/3 mark I was like, is
this going to be done soon? Because I was just drifting
around hitting the sides. Every time I moved I'd bounce
off a corner feel. Like I bring your mom's uterus
through trauma processing. I didn't, I tried to like relax
the mind like I do with all my other like treatments, like I
(07:46):
fall asleep when I'm in a facial, I fall asleep when I'm
getting a massage. In this case, I was like, no,
I'm just kind of, I think I was just maybe I need another visit.
But I was like, I'm good. I I had the experience.
So I'd probably do something different that they offer.
But hey, it's, it's cool to do it once I I think.
And then it was our anniversary.So we went out to stick dinner,
which that was nice that I coincided that she was able to
(08:09):
be back. And the last thing we did.
What else do we do? We did a We went down to the
Reedy River Falls, Reedy Falls down in Greenville, and then we
got a Gelato 'cause there was a little shop along the.
Edge. Yeah, so every day we try to do,
I tried to plan out something and then everything else was
just loosey goosey and then she felt like doing something.
(08:30):
We would. If not, we just chilled.
I think I sent her back on her way without too much additional
fatigue, so hopefully it was restorative.
That is lovely. And can I just say I literally
my heart breaks that you 2 can'tbe together.
Distance makes the heart grow fonder and there's something to
be said about long distance lovewhere you come together and then
(08:52):
you do the things. You guys have been together for
quite some time and you've neverto my knowledge had this
separation where you don't know where the ending date is.
It's not for anything you guys planned on.
It's just it is what it is, right?
And so it gives you the opportunity to like at least in
my mind, court her again, plan dates and do all those things
(09:13):
that for me feel very old schoolor new relationship ish.
But I have a child like. Maybe it's like.
It's a little bit different. Your child is becoming older
woman now. She's up in age these days,
right the way. That oh, she's 13 and don't you
make her age a minute longer. I know how you feel.
You told this story many times about how you want to cherish
(09:35):
every moment that you can with her.
And discard the other times thatare not so favorable.
I think they get really bad right before college.
Is that what it is? Well, I just heard this today.
It's like the universe's way of preparing you to like, literally
get rid of them and be like. Or them to you.
I heard the opposite. I heard that like they start
(09:56):
rebelling and isolating and pushing you away as a child to a
parent because they are taking that step of leaving the nest.
Oh, the parents are reacting to that.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Anywho, this is a fabulous
topic. Parents, the kids.
Basically I just went on a date with my husband last weekend and
(10:17):
it was like he's been wanting togo on a date forever and I've
just been like but we see each other every day.
I want to go on a date with my girlfriends.
You know what? Big day, but you know what I
mean? Like I cherish the time I spent
with my girlfriends with actually rolls in perfectly to
our topic today. Segue.
(10:37):
But this is, I know that's a better segue for me, like
talking about doing my check in and then immediately landing a
transitional point where we start the episode right, So you
can. See how it worked out?
It was perfect. You laid it up.
Yeah, it's soft. Lobbed it, knocked it out of the
park. Where in other words, you're
like, I don't know how to transition, so I'm just going to
say, so well done, let. Me tell you about my best
(11:01):
friend. OK so this topic is multi
layered and where the story starts is with an Instagram
post. I believe I had taken it down
since. Anyways it was a pretty nice
picture and I think the post wassomething like tell me about
your best friend, best girlfriend or whatever it is.
(11:22):
I forget what it was because I deleted it and I'll tell you
why. So, so I wasn't getting too many
responses and I wasn't really taking that personally.
I was just like, huh, that's interesting.
Maybe everyone's travelling or maybe they just can't respond.
So then I checked with the Fox and the Phoenix podcast Facebook
that had some comments. OK.
(11:44):
And I know, like I already know you're going to be disappointed
with what I say and I should have kept the post up
regardless. But like for me, I'm very
sensitive. I don't have any threshold when
it comes to comments about the community that we love and are
in. I don't do so well with.
That's just men in dresses sick.There was like 3 or 4 comments
(12:07):
that I was just like. And when I tell you I have not
experienced much around the hatein terms of Fox and Hanger, it's
very insulated. There's not many people that
lead hateful religious or whatever it is comments also for
the Fox in the Phoenix podcast, mainly for the most part in my
experience, because of course I blacked it out when it happened
(12:29):
last time. It's always this beautiful, warm
and loving community that we have.
So I just was beside myself likeI didn't even have a chance to
savor it for this time we're having right now and talk about
it, which would have been so juicy.
And I apologize, but at my reflex was just to delete
comment, delete comment, delete comment instantly, right?
(12:53):
I like sat with it. I sat with it.
I sat with it and I'm like, yeah, they won.
I'm self-conscious and I put down the post.
I know, I know. Well, I was.
Actually surprised that you started with just deleting the
comments. I think that's fair.
I would do the same. If you feel it's just nasty and
productive, absolutely just delete the comment.
That's OK. So you're not mad, but I mean.
(13:15):
To your point, you should have left the post up, but if you're
getting trolling on the comments, yeah absolutely ban
the user. Yeah, definitely make it
specific to them. I get it, but they were the only
comments there all. Right.
Well, they'll just still delete the comment.
OK, the. Story was this and it's totally,
you know, it all finds its way to a big loving circle that is
(13:37):
this podcast. But basically the moral of the
story is me taking down the post, me deleting the hate, me
just for half a second believingthem.
I feel weird or triggered and I deleted it.
I took a pause and then I did something else.
I don't know. I went for a walk, right?
Something life happened. And then I came back to
(14:01):
Instagram, my scrolling and stuff like that.
My feed was covered with different cross dressing to
trans individuals, individuals we care about getting in their
groups and their cliques and going to different things that
brought them Joe up female joy. There was a prom somewhere,
there was another prom somewhere, there was a rainbow
(14:23):
prom and there were dances and abend and my whole heart just
felt so warm. There is real sisterhood, there
is real friendship here and I amjust being like the universe is
just putting it in my face to validate the fact that this is
real and true. I thought it was, of course,
(14:45):
female friendships, right? Whenever I'm faced with some
sort of adverse opinion, a lot of hate, right?
A lot of fear, there's a part ofme, a little part of me, that
young part of me that believes maybe they're right and it's
very vulnerable to admit it. I hate it.
But it makes for a really juicy episode, I must say, because the
(15:08):
evidence was clear to me. There was so much going on, so
much community. You've talked about it from the
start, from us knowing each other, you going to these
different events with your sisterhood going to Keystone.
There is something so female to female about all that.
Your girl squad, whether it be CD, trans, female friendship is
(15:30):
female friendship. So what do you have to say?
I have to say that in preparation of this topic
because I did see the post on Facebook when I only saw I had
two comments and they were both positive, I didn't see the
delete. Well what I was focusing on was
the SIS friendships that we haveand how validating and why is
(15:51):
having CIS supporting friends and girl squatters.
Why is that even more important?Totally.
Than the trains group. Now what transistors bring a lot
of the bravery and the uncompromising, giving no fucks
vibe to it. They know exactly what you've
been through or what you're going through.
(16:12):
They have that shorthand of knowing thy selves and others in
that group. What sometimes you're not going
to get from that sisterhood thatyou get with a CIS is the fact
that you have an allyship with CIS females who are supporting
you or loving you, loving who you are as a person.
And what they're doing is they're helping to validate your
(16:36):
existence as a woman from AI. Don't want to say true woman,
biologically female lens. That makes it very validating.
Yeah, yeah. And the fact that by them being
a, again, take the words I'm saying with a grain of salt
because there was probably goingto sound wrong, but a biological
female who then takes you a biological male, let's say, who
(16:59):
is trying to find a sister, trying to be accepted in this
world of femininity. That's not just the idea of
presentational femininity, but of biological femininity.
And for have those women accept you is really that olive branch
that you really can't give from a sisterhood with your own peers
(17:21):
because they're walking down that lane with you in the same
direction. But with biological female
women, they are meeting you along the path and they are
embracing you and taking you in.So instead of walking the road
together, you are arriving home like in the.
World Yeah, I'm working with a client that at one point was so
hung up on and being like the other girls and the girls that
(17:44):
she was talking about were CIS women and how do I get that
memo? How do I fit in with them?
It was very important. I feel like I don't get how a
female thinks or what they talk about it and all this kind of
stuff. The interesting thing that
happened over the course of our work together is that shifted so
much internally. It didn't take any females
(18:06):
approaching her and being like, hey, want to be my friend.
It was more an internal, internal shift that took place,
which is so important because itsends a message to your brain
that says I'm worthy of friendship.
I feel feminine enough to at least observe or to hear women
talking and I don't feel like such an outsider.
I heard something else this weekthat was really interesting.
(18:30):
The quote went something like this.
If you expect your husband to belike your girlfriends or the
gays, that's what they said, youwill always be very
disappointed. So I say this because, yes, in
an ideal world, sure, there's friendship within your spouse or
your significant other, sure. But there's something so special
(18:54):
about female friendships. It's had a whole nother plane
for me than it is for my marriage.
When I think about the friendship that's there, it's
just at a whole different level.And you may not be the kind of
girl who feels like they need a group or if you feel like that's
what it means, it's not what it means.
(19:15):
It means it could be one person.It doesn't have to be a click.
I'm not a click person. In fact, there's probably maybe
one combination where it's the three of us hanging out and
sometimes the energy's a little off.
For me, as a sensitive introvert, I really value the
intimate one-on-one time I have with another woman.
(19:35):
That's valid and true and good enough as well.
And even from a CIS female perspective, being with your
female friends, like you said, is so much different than being
with your husband or being with a male friend, or even being
with a trans friend. There is a camaraderie there
that I don't know goes beyond the metaphysical.
(19:56):
It's just different. It lands different.
And I've always been more comfortable with CIS women.
Always has always been the case.I've always made friendships
easier with girls with growing up and in school and then
obviously as an adult. I remember my wife at the time
and her Co worker and a Co worker's girlfriend, all sis
(20:17):
women. Those were my den mother's when
I first went out in New York andit just felt more safe.
I guess. I don't even know if safe is the
right word. I felt more comfortable with
them because they allowed me to have a pass.
It's like, hey, hey, hey, she's with us.
Yeah. You know, and I didn't feel like
an impostor, so I didn't have the impostor syndrome because I
(20:38):
felt like, hey, I'm just with this cabal of ladies and we're
going to the club and we're doing the thing.
And I don't have to now feel like I am the protector of other
trans girls in my group and feellike I feel like the mother had.
Now I can feel like we're just abunch of girls going out and
they're accepting me and I'm like, oh, where are we going?
(20:59):
We're going doing girl things. Whoa.
And like that sense of not only belonging with other women, but
belonging in the spaces where other women are doing their
thing. Yeah, totally.
And with me, I can make a lot ofdifferent connections and they
can be very loving and very deep.
But with my soul friends, like there's only a few of them,
(21:21):
you're one of them. I feel so fortunate that I could
say anything. Me anyway.
There's no posturing. I know that these people would
support me, support my victoriesas well as be the first phone
call I make even before my husband.
I'm just saying. I'm just saying ladies pack and
hip, hip, Hooray. I think female friendships are
(21:45):
like my closest treasures. And that's why when Kate and I
reflect on a bunch of cross dressing women that we have
connected with so deeply, this is going to sound really weird.
It restores our faith in men because the person is both or
dual gender or shares both the yin and the Yang in a very kind
(22:05):
of 5050 kind of way. They're comfortable with their
feminine. This is the expression.
It just, it just feels amazing. It really is restoring faith in
men because a lot of men don't have the best reputations for
being emotionally supportive. Well, you're bringing up a great
point, which is being vulnerable.
Yeah, like you said with your female friends, you can be
(22:27):
vulnerable. You just you don't posture.
You say how you're feeling almost like this unconditional
love and support back from that group of very close female
friends. And while I come into a group of
female friends, it allows me to be less posturing, more
vulnerable. So to your point of when you are
(22:48):
with your female friends and then when you're with trans
expressive male to female friends and they are becoming
more vulnerable in their presentation and then what
they're willing to share and howthe evoke emotion and how they
move, it becomes a lot more vulnerable and intimate and
soft. So to know that that friend of
(23:10):
mine, Sarah, I know tomorrow she's going to be Sam, but I
know that person has that very female, soft, vulnerable,
intimate energy, which like you said, restores your faith that
men as a species, there's hope for us there.
Is a lot of it is internal, likeunderstanding the emotional
(23:30):
needs and not saying that every dual gender person does.
I'm not saying that. I'm simply saying of the people
that we've come in to this becoming dear friends with are
such sweethearts. And it just feels like this
community is just the best, justthe best.
When I showed up to Keystone, I didn't really know anyone, you
(23:53):
know, I had some funny interactions with some people
that I recognized online and they recognized me.
And that was funny when you introduced me to your crew that
had just become your crew as a bunch of different events where
you made this collective group and can finally feel like you
(24:14):
don't have to be on in a way that maybe you thought you had
to be prior. Just you introducing me to them.
I mean, we had a couch, a couplecouches, and we were sitting on
all of them. And I just felt I was with
family. Like I came home and that's what
I think that a real friend should feel like.
It should feel like coming home to yourself.
(24:36):
Yeah, the very quick point to the term family, as you and I
both are fully well aware, foundfamily and chosen family.
Sometimes it's so much differentthan blood relations to the
point of people like what I go home to family at Thanksgiving
and I hate it. Well, no, we're not talking
about that family. We're talking about those chosen
collective souls, not the band Talk about us, that we come
(24:59):
together and it feels whole. You feel complete.
You feel at peace, you feel calm, you feel like you can be
vulnerable without putting up walls.
All those things. It just protects you.
And, and just real quick, going back to the idea of female
friends because you've intimatedyour truth with them and they
decided, oh man, that's awesome.Let's do this thing and like,
(25:22):
I'm going to be your ally. And the idea of being an ally is
great in terms of supporting thequeer community and also an ally
as somebody who's protecting you.
So somebody who is, I don't know, got you back.
Like in that way where if you'renot super sure and confident of
yourself that they can run interference, shoo off those
guys or being pervy and creepy or somebody says something and
(25:46):
they can just go up front and make a wall between you and
them. They supply that they are, you
know, fellow soldiers. Yeah.
They're the protectors. They take on the stereotypical
role that maybe once you dismantle your feminine self and
go back home and I have to posture as this protector again
and get back to the roles that you were.
(26:07):
It's very interesting to look back on the fact that the
females that you protect in yourrole as male are the wildly
protective goddesses that protect you.
So yeah, I think that's really important.
And something else I want to say, whether you are CIS, trans,
(26:27):
crossdresser, no matter where you fall on the feminine
spectrum, I'd like to also acknowledge that because being
in a female friendship is so deep and so emotional, and women
getting together and excluding that could be not so great.
So there's a lot of things that can come from this emotional
(26:48):
bond. And sometimes that means
breaking up. And there's this whole book on
when girlfriends break up because it just really is a
thing. Gosh, I heard a lot preparing
for this episode that just kind of came out of stratospheres.
But I read something the other day that said every seven years
you recycle friendships. So you recycle kind of the
(27:08):
friends you were with and not, you know, others you let go and
some you hold on to. I think the relationships you
have, the female friendships youhave from when you were in
college, high school, you're good.
Yeah, good. Unless it's a huge falling out
or the other person goes throughsome huge life change where the
other person just feels wronged and they just don't know you
(27:31):
anymore. I think those lifer friends,
they have a pretty good chance, right, in staying connected and
staying friends. But friendship is just a
relationship and we're not givena timetable in terms of how long
they're going to last. Some friends stay for a very
long time. Some friends are meant to be
(27:52):
your friend during a particular time in your life and then
they're meant to leave because it's almost like they taught you
they were your greatest teacher in this particular moment.
You you maybe look back on it asa wound, but maybe this episode
will help you realize it was a teaching moment and that this
was meant to be in your life at that time.
(28:13):
And now, not so much. And there is grief and sadness,
but for every girlfriend you letgo of, there's another one just
waiting in the corner. I agree.
Yeah, I see that. And the two things you said that
I think they correlate absolutely.
I've had many friends, whether it was my movie going crew when
(28:34):
I was going to see sneak peeks and premieres and I had my old
cadre of friends and we don't hook up together or they save
our spot in line or vice versa. Or they tell me when the tickets
are coming out. So we get them and I speak to
them a couple of them every so often.
But again, they're not center stage in my life.
Same thing with high school, college.
I don't think I speak to anybodyfrom in college except for one
(28:57):
professor I had. I reached out through LinkedIn
and reached out and said hi, high school, not at all.
And like you said, you run through a cycle where people
come into your life. And if you recognize people for
who they are and how they are toyou in your life, I think you
(29:18):
can give it perspective so that your grieving process when that
person may move on or you move on is not as severe.
I do know some people really agonize over losing friends, and
I understand that. I seek the other way where I am
of the motto of people coming inand out of your life as they're
meant to. And it's all about like, how do
you come out of it with a highersense of self?
(29:40):
You've learned something along the way.
They, like you said, they taughtyou something.
So absolutely, I want to touch on that.
And I think that's deep. It's deep to know know that by
yourself. And is it deep to have that
resonance with those people, those CIS women as partners in
friendship? And then the other thing you had
mentioned, which I thought was funny when we were talking
about, well, when I'm the man, I'm protected ladies, but when
(30:02):
I'm gonna dress, they're protected me is really funny.
That is this weird. You don't even think about it.
Breaking down binary norms. Yeah.
Where all of a sudden, like, I know that in the sisterhood of
CIS women who are out together, yes, absolutely look out for
each other. But taking it to that next
level, like, hey, here's this guy, quote, UN quote, who's in a
(30:23):
dress and towers over us and is like twice, twice our weight,
but still more vulnerable than we are.
And we need to be that masculineenergy to fend off any bad
things that may happen. And so when you think about it
in terms of weight, what did I do when I was at the bar?
What was it? Just like?
Like another weak female friend who needs my assistance.
Strength in numbers. This was somebody who needed us
(30:45):
because they were stronger and bigger than us, but emotionally
they were more tender, more raw,more in need of our protection.
So I love the idea that the rolereversal is so evident and
obvious, but sometimes we don't even notice it.
Totally. And at the same time, to a point
we had discussed a little bit ago, the men that I've met that
(31:06):
are dual gender crossdresser, however, have a sensitivity.
And it reminds me of that time in New York all those years ago
you told me about it could have been a different place.
Please correct me. But basically there was a moment
where you had a choice to get inthe person's face and be this
protector of your woman or to just deescalate yourself, be
(31:27):
yourself. You're not the kind of person
that gets into fights no matter what, but I know you had that
thought process in your head. And if I recall correctly, you
felt really bad about it, reallyinsecure.
And Judy had to tell you no, youdid the right thing.
I wouldn't want you to. I don't know you can.
Yeah, I know. You're absolutely right.
It wasn't New York. Just when a big early muscle
(31:50):
head came to the house demandingI move my car and like just
being in my face and you know, he didn't cross the threshold,
thank God. But I sat there de escalating
because that's my nature to de escalate and probably people
pleasing is part of that of avoid comfort And Judy's three
steps up the stairs behind me. And yes, I felt like I filled
(32:10):
her because she would have seen me as less of a man by not going
toe to toe with this guy. And like her response was no,
absolutely not you. I was very proud of how you
handled this situation because Iif it would have been me, I
would have been going after him.But that's what I'm saying.
That's right. That's what I mean.
So we're talking about gender norms, we're talking about all
(32:30):
these things, but a lot of people that are drawn to the
feminine and feminine dress and the feminine experience that are
also men identify as such, tend to be a little more sensitive,
tend to not be this macho unlessyou're really, really closeted
and your male self is just so just.
Hyper masculinity. Totally.
(32:51):
But yeah, so thanks for being a part of this episode with me.
Thank you for having me. I mean, just should we mark our
calendars so that when we get our seven years, you know, now
that you're hanging out with younger cool people?
Like Olive, I don't. Want to be the even less cool
one of the this triad of coolness so.
(33:12):
I know we went to we met at a coffee shop yesterday and then I
took her to five different localthrift stores.
I wasn't even trying to be cool.I just wasn't.
I didn't have a shred of cool. I was suddenly like that dork in
like white Reebok shoes. I just, she's so cool, that's
all I have to say. I'm like so sure of herself and
(33:33):
something that makes her so coolthat she has an artistic and
creative sense of self. She's 1000% gothic, so aware and
it's almost done in such a refined way.
Like it's just, I don't know. I don't know.
I just adore her and I feel. That's all that matters is the
adoration and loveth each other as friends.
I hope she likes me as much as Ilike her.
(33:55):
I mean, sorry. So I hope all of you enjoyed
this episode. Please don't be a stranger and
please comment below if there's something that we said that
resonates with you or simply something that you have more
questions about or want to debate.
We love it and we have a new episode every Wednesday.
(34:18):
Most, yeah. Almost Wednesday, we'll say most
Wednesdays. Yeah, we're grown up.
We have things going on in our lives, but we try.
We're trying our very best as werecord on a Wednesday.
And to all those people who wantto leave comments, if you're a
troll and a hater, yeah, Julie will delete your comment and I
will. And I'll try not to delete the
post. Yeah, be proud of who you are
(34:39):
and what you're doing, and just don't let those naysayers get up
in your grill and then your brain about who you are as a
person. I was so happy with the
Instagram comments because therewere some lovely ones.
And then I go to Facebook and I'm like, what?
What? What?
Trolls be trolling. I know, but I just thought we
were so incubated. I did not, no.
(35:01):
That's true, but you are right. I'm going to say you're
absolutely right. We don't tend from a Fox and the
Fink's podcast perspective, we don't get a lot of hate.
No, not rarely. It's very rare.
I've deleted a couple direct messages is about like, I can
help you get 20 billion followers.
I'm like, delete. So right, delete, yes, I take
care of those. But man, I'm a little bummed
(35:23):
that I didn't see those troll comments because sometimes
that's where the juice comes out.
You talk about like people coming to your protection and
allyship. You know, sometimes you don't
need to do anything, girl. All you need to do is have
somebody, one of our girls, readthat post and read those
comments and man, let them take those trolls to task.
All right, well. That's just, that's just fun to
(35:43):
watch. Take them to it.
So if you're listening and you're ever on there and see a
troll before I do, feel free to express yourself.
That's right. But don't get in Facebook jail
because no. No.
No, don't do that. So this has been a pleasure and
I love you very much. I love you as well.
And bye for now. Until next time, you can find me
(36:11):
on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing
and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK and to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hangar or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhangar.com.
(36:37):
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, understanding
the feminine cross dressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hey, Julie. Hi, Savannah.
Hi, how are you? I'm hot as blaze as out.
Yeah, you're hot. Woo.
Girl, I mean, the temperature's 98.
(00:51):
I'd. Hate and I'm sweating my tits
off. Shit, I wish I had tits the
sweat off, you know what I'm saying?
But then it'd be all like a under boob sweat and all that
markings you get when you're just like, I'm taking this bra
off and I've had enough. You've had tit sweat when you've
had tit sweat like a what are those called?
Well, the breastplate. I love it.
Breastplates. Well, the breastplate's the
(01:12):
worst. That's the absolute worst
because they have these new models that's meshy, so it's
supposed to be more breathable, but the ones I get just are
silicone against your body. And I remember doing my boudoir
shoot when I did the costume change and I had the Robee know
it was sheer, it was polyester and it held in all the heat.
It was completely sheer but unbreathable.
(01:34):
And you could just see the line of sweat coming from the bottom
edge of it. Oh yeah, that was the worst.
That's why I'm always on the lookout for the halter top
Velcro one or the one that's gotthe big hole in the back.
Suppose a more breathable, but Idigress.
You made me think of something funny that happened today at the
Bar method class. What happened to the bar method?
(01:55):
Which it was a cardio bar methodclass.
So basically we used the ballet bar, but not as much as the
usual class, but it was cardio. There's a lot of moving and
stuff like that. Any who it's one of those higher
intensity classes faster pace, there's quick choreography and
the instructor today says I lovehow all of you ladies know to
(02:17):
wear black leggings on a cardio day and she said crotch sweat is
real ladies, I'm like. Oh my God, please don't
highlight it. I don't want my crotch sweat
highlighted. I know.
It's just, it's what I don't know to me.
I do it. I took it all like, metaphoric
like. Sure, I know it's all natural
and you know the body does what it does, but I'm still very
(02:38):
self-conscious about pit sway and I don't like feeling that
way and I don't like looking that way.
How about swamp ass? Yeah, not.
Good, not good. I heard a secret.
What I heard a secret that I don't know.
Maybe somebody new is in your life.
Someone new? I don't know what you're talking
about. Oh, you do know who I'm talking
and what I'm talking about, MissRubenstein.
(03:00):
So I have, I do I have the pleasure of having a an intern.
Yeah, an intern. She's really into fashion,
really into the cause, the community.
She is just brilliant and wonderful and she's going to be
(03:22):
helping me with some of the social media stuff.
OK, when she's done for you, send her my way because, you
know, maybe she knows this thingor two about editing or she my
social media. I said what she's done.
I'm saying what she's? Done.
When she's done, it will be August and I'll be sending her
back to school. Do you believe that all you
people who don't live in California, August is when we go
(03:44):
back, OK? I want to say August, late
August is around here too. I remember September.
I remember after Labor Day. Like second week of us.
Yeah, I remember being in the 1st and 2nd week of September
when I started my school semester, so I remember summer
being longer than it is these days.
I hope you may not be able to sense my enthusiasm because I'm
(04:07):
sweaty and dehydrated, but I'm so excited.
He is so freaking cool. The septum Pierce and the
piercing and that she's gorgeousand this hair that she can
change if she wants to. Like right now it's a deep red.
I just love having that younger energy.
And I'm hoping, you know, maybe she'll be interested in
(04:30):
volunteering during the a year. But I know that's wishful
thinking and she won't. But Oliver, if you're listening
to this, which I know you're not, please just, you know, hang
out a little. OK, first of all it should be a
prerequisite that she starts listening.
As an intern, you need to know the job, you need to know all
the channels and the only way toknow all the.
Channels all the channels she knows all the.
(04:51):
Yeah, but if she isn't listeningto that podcast, she's got to
put one podcast under her belt and tell her that this would be
the although this will be weeks in the future and she'll be back
at school by then. But anyway.
All right, but this is the one because it's my topic week.
Wait, have you shared anything about your life?
Check in. All right, I've done this maybe
(05:13):
twice, if not thrice before where I'm like really jumping
the gun on on talking about the topic and I haven't even checked
in with you and it's super rude and like a dash narcissist.
So I'm throw it on over to you. Well, tennis ball and.
Just, you know, there's really nothing going on for me.
You know, it's all right. So this episode is posting up
(05:38):
like a month in the future. So as the recording of this
episode, and we are doing this on a Wednesday evening, which
we've done once before recently.And the reason why is because
Father's Day has passed the weekbefore.
Judy came into town from Connecticut, so she was back
Monday to Monday. She just left two days ago to go
back to Connecticut to be there for her mom who is now doing
(06:02):
palliative radiation. So she gets 2 doses a day for
two days in a row. Wait two weeks, see how it's
going, rinse and repeat if necessary.
Shout out to everybody who's given amazing support on that
front for Judy and her mom whileshe was here.
I was like, Oh no, what do you want to do?
(06:22):
I mean, so it's like I tried to balance events and chillaxing.
And so we did a painting class where everybody paints the same
thing and did. You drink wine or.
No. Well, we don't drink.
Yeah, we don't drink. So we just.
It's called painting with A twist, but we just did the
painting part. So because there was no
(06:43):
Corkscrew to twist into our winebubbles, then we drifted in a
spa, basically 1000 lbs of Epsomsalt in water.
So you're super, super duper buoyant.
So you go into this big egg and you close the lid, and you how?
Was it? I want to do that someday.
I'm scared I'm be claustrophobic.
(07:03):
I don't know if you are claustrophobic, which I am not,
so I can't really speak to that.I'm not.
It's big enough that you're like, it's got like room to see
and move and it's got a lid. You can keep the lid partially
open so it's not so enclosed on you.
I will say it's different and cool as it was, I got a little
bored about 2/3 of the way through.
(07:23):
We only did 60 minutes each and by the 2/3 mark I was like, is
this going to be done soon? Because I was just drifting
around hitting the sides. Every time I moved I'd bounce
off a corner feel. Like I bring your mom's uterus
through trauma processing. I didn't, I tried to like relax
the mind like I do with all my other like treatments, like I
(07:46):
fall asleep when I'm in a facial, I fall asleep when I'm
getting a massage. In this case, I was like, no,
I'm just kind of, I think I was just maybe I need another visit.
But I was like, I'm good. I I had the experience.
So I'd probably do something different that they offer.
But hey, it's, it's cool to do it once I I think.
And then it was our anniversary.So we went out to stick dinner,
which that was nice that I coincided that she was able to
(08:09):
be back. And the last thing we did.
What else do we do? We did a We went down to the
Reedy River Falls, Reedy Falls down in Greenville, and then we
got a Gelato 'cause there was a little shop along the.
Edge. Yeah, so every day we try to do,
I tried to plan out something and then everything else was
just loosey goosey and then she felt like doing something.
(08:30):
We would. If not, we just chilled.
I think I sent her back on her way without too much additional
fatigue, so hopefully it was restorative.
That is lovely. And can I just say I literally
my heart breaks that you 2 can'tbe together.
Distance makes the heart grow fonder and there's something to
be said about long distance lovewhere you come together and then
(08:52):
you do the things. You guys have been together for
quite some time and you've neverto my knowledge had this
separation where you don't know where the ending date is.
It's not for anything you guys planned on.
It's just it is what it is, right?
And so it gives you the opportunity to like at least in
my mind, court her again, plan dates and do all those things
(09:13):
that for me feel very old schoolor new relationship ish.
But I have a child like. Maybe it's like.
It's a little bit different. Your child is becoming older
woman now. She's up in age these days,
right the way. That oh, she's 13 and don't you
make her age a minute longer. I know how you feel.
You told this story many times about how you want to cherish
(09:35):
every moment that you can with her.
And discard the other times thatare not so favorable.
I think they get really bad right before college.
Is that what it is? Well, I just heard this today.
It's like the universe's way of preparing you to like, literally
get rid of them and be like. Or them to you.
I heard the opposite. I heard that like they start
(09:56):
rebelling and isolating and pushing you away as a child to a
parent because they are taking that step of leaving the nest.
Oh, the parents are reacting to that.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Anywho, this is a fabulous
topic. Parents, the kids.
Basically I just went on a date with my husband last weekend and
(10:17):
it was like he's been wanting togo on a date forever and I've
just been like but we see each other every day.
I want to go on a date with my girlfriends.
You know what? Big day, but you know what I
mean? Like I cherish the time I spent
with my girlfriends with actually rolls in perfectly to
our topic today. Segue.
(10:37):
But this is, I know that's a better segue for me, like
talking about doing my check in and then immediately landing a
transitional point where we start the episode right, So you
can. See how it worked out?
It was perfect. You laid it up.
Yeah, it's soft. Lobbed it, knocked it out of the
park. Where in other words, you're
like, I don't know how to transition, so I'm just going to
say, so well done, let. Me tell you about my best
(11:01):
friend. OK so this topic is multi
layered and where the story starts is with an Instagram
post. I believe I had taken it down
since. Anyways it was a pretty nice
picture and I think the post wassomething like tell me about
your best friend, best girlfriend or whatever it is.
(11:22):
I forget what it was because I deleted it and I'll tell you
why. So, so I wasn't getting too many
responses and I wasn't really taking that personally.
I was just like, huh, that's interesting.
Maybe everyone's travelling or maybe they just can't respond.
So then I checked with the Fox and the Phoenix podcast Facebook
that had some comments. OK.
(11:44):
And I know, like I already know you're going to be disappointed
with what I say and I should have kept the post up
regardless. But like for me, I'm very
sensitive. I don't have any threshold when
it comes to comments about the community that we love and are
in. I don't do so well with.
That's just men in dresses sick.There was like 3 or 4 comments
(12:07):
that I was just like. And when I tell you I have not
experienced much around the hatein terms of Fox and Hanger, it's
very insulated. There's not many people that
lead hateful religious or whatever it is comments also for
the Fox in the Phoenix podcast, mainly for the most part in my
experience, because of course I blacked it out when it happened
(12:29):
last time. It's always this beautiful, warm
and loving community that we have.
So I just was beside myself likeI didn't even have a chance to
savor it for this time we're having right now and talk about
it, which would have been so juicy.
And I apologize, but at my reflex was just to delete
comment, delete comment, delete comment instantly, right?
(12:53):
I like sat with it. I sat with it.
I sat with it and I'm like, yeah, they won.
I'm self-conscious and I put down the post.
I know, I know. Well, I was.
Actually surprised that you started with just deleting the
comments. I think that's fair.
I would do the same. If you feel it's just nasty and
productive, absolutely just delete the comment.
That's OK. So you're not mad, but I mean.
(13:15):
To your point, you should have left the post up, but if you're
getting trolling on the comments, yeah absolutely ban
the user. Yeah, definitely make it
specific to them. I get it, but they were the only
comments there all. Right.
Well, they'll just still delete the comment.
OK, the. Story was this and it's totally,
you know, it all finds its way to a big loving circle that is
(13:37):
this podcast. But basically the moral of the
story is me taking down the post, me deleting the hate, me
just for half a second believingthem.
I feel weird or triggered and I deleted it.
I took a pause and then I did something else.
I don't know. I went for a walk, right?
Something life happened. And then I came back to
(14:01):
Instagram, my scrolling and stuff like that.
My feed was covered with different cross dressing to
trans individuals, individuals we care about getting in their
groups and their cliques and going to different things that
brought them Joe up female joy. There was a prom somewhere,
there was another prom somewhere, there was a rainbow
(14:23):
prom and there were dances and abend and my whole heart just
felt so warm. There is real sisterhood, there
is real friendship here and I amjust being like the universe is
just putting it in my face to validate the fact that this is
real and true. I thought it was, of course,
(14:45):
female friendships, right? Whenever I'm faced with some
sort of adverse opinion, a lot of hate, right?
A lot of fear, there's a part ofme, a little part of me, that
young part of me that believes maybe they're right and it's
very vulnerable to admit it. I hate it.
But it makes for a really juicy episode, I must say, because the
(15:08):
evidence was clear to me. There was so much going on, so
much community. You've talked about it from the
start, from us knowing each other, you going to these
different events with your sisterhood going to Keystone.
There is something so female to female about all that.
Your girl squad, whether it be CD, trans, female friendship is
(15:30):
female friendship. So what do you have to say?
I have to say that in preparation of this topic
because I did see the post on Facebook when I only saw I had
two comments and they were both positive, I didn't see the
delete. Well what I was focusing on was
the SIS friendships that we haveand how validating and why is
(15:51):
having CIS supporting friends and girl squatters.
Why is that even more important?Totally.
Than the trains group. Now what transistors bring a lot
of the bravery and the uncompromising, giving no fucks
vibe to it. They know exactly what you've
been through or what you're going through.
(16:12):
They have that shorthand of knowing thy selves and others in
that group. What sometimes you're not going
to get from that sisterhood thatyou get with a CIS is the fact
that you have an allyship with CIS females who are supporting
you or loving you, loving who you are as a person.
And what they're doing is they're helping to validate your
(16:36):
existence as a woman from AI. Don't want to say true woman,
biologically female lens. That makes it very validating.
Yeah, yeah. And the fact that by them being
a, again, take the words I'm saying with a grain of salt
because there was probably goingto sound wrong, but a biological
female who then takes you a biological male, let's say, who
(16:59):
is trying to find a sister, trying to be accepted in this
world of femininity. That's not just the idea of
presentational femininity, but of biological femininity.
And for have those women accept you is really that olive branch
that you really can't give from a sisterhood with your own peers
(17:21):
because they're walking down that lane with you in the same
direction. But with biological female
women, they are meeting you along the path and they are
embracing you and taking you in.So instead of walking the road
together, you are arriving home like in the.
World Yeah, I'm working with a client that at one point was so
hung up on and being like the other girls and the girls that
(17:44):
she was talking about were CIS women and how do I get that
memo? How do I fit in with them?
It was very important. I feel like I don't get how a
female thinks or what they talk about it and all this kind of
stuff. The interesting thing that
happened over the course of our work together is that shifted so
much internally. It didn't take any females
(18:06):
approaching her and being like, hey, want to be my friend.
It was more an internal, internal shift that took place,
which is so important because itsends a message to your brain
that says I'm worthy of friendship.
I feel feminine enough to at least observe or to hear women
talking and I don't feel like such an outsider.
I heard something else this weekthat was really interesting.
(18:30):
The quote went something like this.
If you expect your husband to belike your girlfriends or the
gays, that's what they said, youwill always be very
disappointed. So I say this because, yes, in
an ideal world, sure, there's friendship within your spouse or
your significant other, sure. But there's something so special
(18:54):
about female friendships. It's had a whole nother plane
for me than it is for my marriage.
When I think about the friendship that's there, it's
just at a whole different level.And you may not be the kind of
girl who feels like they need a group or if you feel like that's
what it means, it's not what it means.
(19:15):
It means it could be one person.It doesn't have to be a click.
I'm not a click person. In fact, there's probably maybe
one combination where it's the three of us hanging out and
sometimes the energy's a little off.
For me, as a sensitive introvert, I really value the
intimate one-on-one time I have with another woman.
(19:35):
That's valid and true and good enough as well.
And even from a CIS female perspective, being with your
female friends, like you said, is so much different than being
with your husband or being with a male friend, or even being
with a trans friend. There is a camaraderie there
that I don't know goes beyond the metaphysical.
(19:56):
It's just different. It lands different.
And I've always been more comfortable with CIS women.
Always has always been the case.I've always made friendships
easier with girls with growing up and in school and then
obviously as an adult. I remember my wife at the time
and her Co worker and a Co worker's girlfriend, all sis
(20:17):
women. Those were my den mother's when
I first went out in New York andit just felt more safe.
I guess. I don't even know if safe is the
right word. I felt more comfortable with
them because they allowed me to have a pass.
It's like, hey, hey, hey, she's with us.
Yeah. You know, and I didn't feel like
an impostor, so I didn't have the impostor syndrome because I
(20:38):
felt like, hey, I'm just with this cabal of ladies and we're
going to the club and we're doing the thing.
And I don't have to now feel like I am the protector of other
trans girls in my group and feellike I feel like the mother had.
Now I can feel like we're just abunch of girls going out and
they're accepting me and I'm like, oh, where are we going?
(20:59):
We're going doing girl things. Whoa.
And like that sense of not only belonging with other women, but
belonging in the spaces where other women are doing their
thing. Yeah, totally.
And with me, I can make a lot ofdifferent connections and they
can be very loving and very deep.
But with my soul friends, like there's only a few of them,
(21:21):
you're one of them. I feel so fortunate that I could
say anything. Me anyway.
There's no posturing. I know that these people would
support me, support my victoriesas well as be the first phone
call I make even before my husband.
I'm just saying. I'm just saying ladies pack and
hip, hip, Hooray. I think female friendships are
(21:45):
like my closest treasures. And that's why when Kate and I
reflect on a bunch of cross dressing women that we have
connected with so deeply, this is going to sound really weird.
It restores our faith in men because the person is both or
dual gender or shares both the yin and the Yang in a very kind
(22:05):
of 5050 kind of way. They're comfortable with their
feminine. This is the expression.
It just, it just feels amazing. It really is restoring faith in
men because a lot of men don't have the best reputations for
being emotionally supportive. Well, you're bringing up a great
point, which is being vulnerable.
Yeah, like you said with your female friends, you can be
(22:27):
vulnerable. You just you don't posture.
You say how you're feeling almost like this unconditional
love and support back from that group of very close female
friends. And while I come into a group of
female friends, it allows me to be less posturing, more
vulnerable. So to your point of when you are
(22:48):
with your female friends and then when you're with trans
expressive male to female friends and they are becoming
more vulnerable in their presentation and then what
they're willing to share and howthe evoke emotion and how they
move, it becomes a lot more vulnerable and intimate and
soft. So to know that that friend of
(23:10):
mine, Sarah, I know tomorrow she's going to be Sam, but I
know that person has that very female, soft, vulnerable,
intimate energy, which like you said, restores your faith that
men as a species, there's hope for us there.
Is a lot of it is internal, likeunderstanding the emotional
(23:30):
needs and not saying that every dual gender person does.
I'm not saying that. I'm simply saying of the people
that we've come in to this becoming dear friends with are
such sweethearts. And it just feels like this
community is just the best, justthe best.
When I showed up to Keystone, I didn't really know anyone, you
(23:53):
know, I had some funny interactions with some people
that I recognized online and they recognized me.
And that was funny when you introduced me to your crew that
had just become your crew as a bunch of different events where
you made this collective group and can finally feel like you
(24:14):
don't have to be on in a way that maybe you thought you had
to be prior. Just you introducing me to them.
I mean, we had a couch, a couplecouches, and we were sitting on
all of them. And I just felt I was with
family. Like I came home and that's what
I think that a real friend should feel like.
It should feel like coming home to yourself.
(24:36):
Yeah, the very quick point to the term family, as you and I
both are fully well aware, foundfamily and chosen family.
Sometimes it's so much differentthan blood relations to the
point of people like what I go home to family at Thanksgiving
and I hate it. Well, no, we're not talking
about that family. We're talking about those chosen
collective souls, not the band Talk about us, that we come
(24:59):
together and it feels whole. You feel complete.
You feel at peace, you feel calm, you feel like you can be
vulnerable without putting up walls.
All those things. It just protects you.
And, and just real quick, going back to the idea of female
friends because you've intimatedyour truth with them and they
decided, oh man, that's awesome.Let's do this thing and like,
(25:22):
I'm going to be your ally. And the idea of being an ally is
great in terms of supporting thequeer community and also an ally
as somebody who's protecting you.
So somebody who is, I don't know, got you back.
Like in that way where if you'renot super sure and confident of
yourself that they can run interference, shoo off those
guys or being pervy and creepy or somebody says something and
(25:46):
they can just go up front and make a wall between you and
them. They supply that they are, you
know, fellow soldiers. Yeah.
They're the protectors. They take on the stereotypical
role that maybe once you dismantle your feminine self and
go back home and I have to posture as this protector again
and get back to the roles that you were.
(26:07):
It's very interesting to look back on the fact that the
females that you protect in yourrole as male are the wildly
protective goddesses that protect you.
So yeah, I think that's really important.
And something else I want to say, whether you are CIS, trans,
(26:27):
crossdresser, no matter where you fall on the feminine
spectrum, I'd like to also acknowledge that because being
in a female friendship is so deep and so emotional, and women
getting together and excluding that could be not so great.
So there's a lot of things that can come from this emotional
(26:48):
bond. And sometimes that means
breaking up. And there's this whole book on
when girlfriends break up because it just really is a
thing. Gosh, I heard a lot preparing
for this episode that just kind of came out of stratospheres.
But I read something the other day that said every seven years
you recycle friendships. So you recycle kind of the
(27:08):
friends you were with and not, you know, others you let go and
some you hold on to. I think the relationships you
have, the female friendships youhave from when you were in
college, high school, you're good.
Yeah, good. Unless it's a huge falling out
or the other person goes throughsome huge life change where the
other person just feels wronged and they just don't know you
(27:31):
anymore. I think those lifer friends,
they have a pretty good chance, right, in staying connected and
staying friends. But friendship is just a
relationship and we're not givena timetable in terms of how long
they're going to last. Some friends stay for a very
long time. Some friends are meant to be
(27:52):
your friend during a particular time in your life and then
they're meant to leave because it's almost like they taught you
they were your greatest teacher in this particular moment.
You you maybe look back on it asa wound, but maybe this episode
will help you realize it was a teaching moment and that this
was meant to be in your life at that time.
(28:13):
And now, not so much. And there is grief and sadness,
but for every girlfriend you letgo of, there's another one just
waiting in the corner. I agree.
Yeah, I see that. And the two things you said that
I think they correlate absolutely.
I've had many friends, whether it was my movie going crew when
(28:34):
I was going to see sneak peeks and premieres and I had my old
cadre of friends and we don't hook up together or they save
our spot in line or vice versa. Or they tell me when the tickets
are coming out. So we get them and I speak to
them a couple of them every so often.
But again, they're not center stage in my life.
Same thing with high school, college.
I don't think I speak to anybodyfrom in college except for one
(28:57):
professor I had. I reached out through LinkedIn
and reached out and said hi, high school, not at all.
And like you said, you run through a cycle where people
come into your life. And if you recognize people for
who they are and how they are toyou in your life, I think you
(29:18):
can give it perspective so that your grieving process when that
person may move on or you move on is not as severe.
I do know some people really agonize over losing friends, and
I understand that. I seek the other way where I am
of the motto of people coming inand out of your life as they're
meant to. And it's all about like, how do
you come out of it with a highersense of self?
(29:40):
You've learned something along the way.
They, like you said, they taughtyou something.
So absolutely, I want to touch on that.
And I think that's deep. It's deep to know know that by
yourself. And is it deep to have that
resonance with those people, those CIS women as partners in
friendship? And then the other thing you had
mentioned, which I thought was funny when we were talking
about, well, when I'm the man, I'm protected ladies, but when
(30:02):
I'm gonna dress, they're protected me is really funny.
That is this weird. You don't even think about it.
Breaking down binary norms. Yeah.
Where all of a sudden, like, I know that in the sisterhood of
CIS women who are out together, yes, absolutely look out for
each other. But taking it to that next
level, like, hey, here's this guy, quote, UN quote, who's in a
(30:23):
dress and towers over us and is like twice, twice our weight,
but still more vulnerable than we are.
And we need to be that masculineenergy to fend off any bad
things that may happen. And so when you think about it
in terms of weight, what did I do when I was at the bar?
What was it? Just like?
Like another weak female friend who needs my assistance.
Strength in numbers. This was somebody who needed us
(30:45):
because they were stronger and bigger than us, but emotionally
they were more tender, more raw,more in need of our protection.
So I love the idea that the rolereversal is so evident and
obvious, but sometimes we don't even notice it.
Totally. And at the same time, to a point
we had discussed a little bit ago, the men that I've met that
(31:06):
are dual gender crossdresser, however, have a sensitivity.
And it reminds me of that time in New York all those years ago
you told me about it could have been a different place.
Please correct me. But basically there was a moment
where you had a choice to get inthe person's face and be this
protector of your woman or to just deescalate yourself, be
(31:27):
yourself. You're not the kind of person
that gets into fights no matter what, but I know you had that
thought process in your head. And if I recall correctly, you
felt really bad about it, reallyinsecure.
And Judy had to tell you no, youdid the right thing.
I wouldn't want you to. I don't know you can.
Yeah, I know. You're absolutely right.
It wasn't New York. Just when a big early muscle
(31:50):
head came to the house demandingI move my car and like just
being in my face and you know, he didn't cross the threshold,
thank God. But I sat there de escalating
because that's my nature to de escalate and probably people
pleasing is part of that of avoid comfort And Judy's three
steps up the stairs behind me. And yes, I felt like I filled
(32:10):
her because she would have seen me as less of a man by not going
toe to toe with this guy. And like her response was no,
absolutely not you. I was very proud of how you
handled this situation because Iif it would have been me, I
would have been going after him.But that's what I'm saying.
That's right. That's what I mean.
So we're talking about gender norms, we're talking about all
(32:30):
these things, but a lot of people that are drawn to the
feminine and feminine dress and the feminine experience that are
also men identify as such, tend to be a little more sensitive,
tend to not be this macho unlessyou're really, really closeted
and your male self is just so just.
Hyper masculinity. Totally.
(32:51):
But yeah, so thanks for being a part of this episode with me.
Thank you for having me. I mean, just should we mark our
calendars so that when we get our seven years, you know, now
that you're hanging out with younger cool people?
Like Olive, I don't. Want to be the even less cool
one of the this triad of coolness so.
(33:12):
I know we went to we met at a coffee shop yesterday and then I
took her to five different localthrift stores.
I wasn't even trying to be cool.I just wasn't.
I didn't have a shred of cool. I was suddenly like that dork in
like white Reebok shoes. I just, she's so cool, that's
all I have to say. I'm like so sure of herself and
(33:33):
something that makes her so coolthat she has an artistic and
creative sense of self. She's 1000% gothic, so aware and
it's almost done in such a refined way.
Like it's just, I don't know. I don't know.
I just adore her and I feel. That's all that matters is the
adoration and loveth each other as friends.
I hope she likes me as much as Ilike her.
(33:55):
I mean, sorry. So I hope all of you enjoyed
this episode. Please don't be a stranger and
please comment below if there's something that we said that
resonates with you or simply something that you have more
questions about or want to debate.
We love it and we have a new episode every Wednesday.
(34:18):
Most, yeah. Almost Wednesday, we'll say most
Wednesdays. Yeah, we're grown up.
We have things going on in our lives, but we try.
We're trying our very best as werecord on a Wednesday.
And to all those people who wantto leave comments, if you're a
troll and a hater, yeah, Julie will delete your comment and I
will. And I'll try not to delete the
post. Yeah, be proud of who you are
(34:39):
and what you're doing, and just don't let those naysayers get up
in your grill and then your brain about who you are as a
person. I was so happy with the
Instagram comments because therewere some lovely ones.
And then I go to Facebook and I'm like, what?
What? What?
Trolls be trolling. I know, but I just thought we
were so incubated. I did not, no.
(35:01):
That's true, but you are right. I'm going to say you're
absolutely right. We don't tend from a Fox and the
Fink's podcast perspective, we don't get a lot of hate.
No, not rarely. It's very rare.
I've deleted a couple direct messages is about like, I can
help you get 20 billion followers.
I'm like, delete. So right, delete, yes, I take
care of those. But man, I'm a little bummed
(35:23):
that I didn't see those troll comments because sometimes
that's where the juice comes out.
You talk about like people coming to your protection and
allyship. You know, sometimes you don't
need to do anything, girl. All you need to do is have
somebody, one of our girls, readthat post and read those
comments and man, let them take those trolls to task.
All right, well. That's just, that's just fun to
(35:43):
watch. Take them to it.
So if you're listening and you're ever on there and see a
troll before I do, feel free to express yourself.
That's right. But don't get in Facebook jail
because no. No.
No, don't do that. So this has been a pleasure and
I love you very much. I love you as well.
And bye for now. Until next time, you can find me
(36:11):
on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing
and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK and to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hangar or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhangar.com.
(36:37):
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
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