August 13, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode, Savannah doesn't have Julie to kick around this week, so she enlists her Atlanta "hostesses with the mostess" to come on air. Jolene is a fairly recent addition to the queer, gender-expansive community. She and her wife, Nicole, have been married for years, with grown kids, and a now empty-nesting home. What happens when the kids go live their own lives and a laundry SNAFU sends an unsuspecting husband down a strange and exciting road of feminine self-discovery? And, how does a wife, whose panties were accidentally worn by her husband one day, react and come to embrace this new person in her life?
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hey Julie. Julie.
Oh, sorry, Julie's not here today.
So in this special episode of Fox and Famous Podcast, I am
(00:48):
coming to you live and remote from a secret location with some
of my best friends, and that is going to be Jolene.
Jolene and Nikki. I am in their beautiful home
again, the secret location in a deep, dark bunker in the
Adirondacks where they've treated me wonderfully this
weekend. And we said, hey, you know what
(01:09):
would be awesome? Let's not go in the pool.
Let's not enjoy the day. Let's sit around the table and
have a whole podcast about it. And one thing I want to share
with the audience, which is verytelling about having this
episode be so fortuitous is I got a message on Instagram.
It comes from a partner named Kim who said, hey, missing the
(01:33):
spouse related episodes. Can you do more of those,
please? I'm struggling.
Long time listener since years ago and free to be and just want
to hear more that I can relate to.
So in honor of Kim, I figured let's pull these kiddos in and
have a conversation. So Jolene and Nikki, hi.
(01:54):
Hi. Hi.
Savannah. How are you?
Good. And hi, Kim, this one's just for
you. Wow, wow.
That is saying something. So this dedication goes out to
Kim's. Now back to the countdown.
OK, so I'm here and I love you both and you're amazing.
And you're also color coordinated a little bit.
(02:15):
I feel like I didn't get the memo, but that's OK.
And we will be absolutely going straight to the pool after this.
And our dogs are quiet. So if you hear a little
rumbling, a little tic tac in onthe floor, it's because my dogs
are still out being pests. So I know.
And every time we see Jolene, I'm like, oh, yeah, you've only
been doing this for a couple years.
And I'm like, oh, yeah. But your wife is so awesome and
(02:36):
amazing. It's apartment.
And I would just like blown awaybecause my experience is so
different than both of yours. Mine's been lifelong, multiple
partners trying to figure the shit out for eons and ages
you've been together. How long?
33 years. This month.
Wow, Wow. OK.
And just to set the stage going for you, your gender
(03:01):
expansiveness, was it a always known thing or was this just
purely like you didn't know anything about anything until
what time? So it's funny, since we've
started exploring my femme side,I mentioned it to Nicole in
October 2023. OK.
I was post COVID, I was just bored with myself and I really
(03:24):
just felt like, hey, I want to try something fun.
And maybe it was maybe a little bit of the kink.
I would say like just trying on a girl's dress or skirt or
something to that nature. And I just, I thought about it
for a while. It's turning around inside of
me. And one night I asked Nicole.
I said, can we dress me up as a girl and I'd like to try it.
(03:48):
And she said, yeah, sure. She didn't see any harm in it.
And one thing led to the next and within a month, I think she
was making a professional makeupappointment for me.
We went into the city, met a wonderful makeup artist, and she
does Hollywood makeup, regular makeup.
She also did some trans makeup in the trans community.
(04:10):
She literally taught me how to put my makeup on, go through the
whole process. And I sat there for two hours, I
think. And literally my reveal moment
when she spun me around, I couldn't believe what I was
seeing in the mirror. I was like crazy.
And that was my transformative moment where I was like, I like
(04:31):
what I see, you know? And so we just really grew into
it progressively. That very day of getting my
makeup done, Nicole had reservations at a restaurant in
the city. So it was also my first time out
in public. So I went from zero to 100
(04:53):
almost in a one day span. All right, we're going to come
back to that because I feel likethere's more to unpack there,
but I want to ask Nicole about her reaction or her thoughts and
feelings about the one. Be like, hey, I'd like to try
this. And then from that moment to the
month of creation of Jolene, youknow, and going out into the
(05:16):
world, what that's been like foryou.
Leading up to this, there was already, like you said, starting
off like whether it's a kink or whatever, wearing my underwear
or things like that. But it was always in a way that
I knew about it. It wasn't a secret or something
that was being kept from me, nothing that in the past there
were never hidden clothes. And these are a lot of the
stories that I hear from other couples, is that it was hidden.
(05:38):
There was shame involved. But for us, having recently
become empty nesters, for the most part, it allowed us the
opportunity to really reinvent ourselves as a couple too.
And then you hear a lot about when couples become empty
nesters, that they don't know each other anymore because their
whole lives have been focused onthe kids and everything.
(05:59):
And I don't think that that was us so much because we've always
made a really concerted effort to have time to focus on each
other. But having been married for 33
years, as we are now 31 at that time, obviously we have been
through some super highs and super lows.
We had found ways to grow through them, learn from one
(06:20):
another and make it through to the other side, where I feel
certain that some couples at times may have probably called
it quits. And so I think that it brought
us to a place where nothing is off limits.
That's in your heart, that's on your mind, that if you're always
open and honest about it, we canfigure a way through it.
And so I, I took it as that whenthe underwear became more a
(06:43):
little bit about let me try yourdress or let me try.
I couldn't draw my shoes becauseSteve was too big, too big.
But certain things that was fun around the house.
And I was in my mind was wondering where it was going,
you know, But when Jolene said that she wanted a dress fully as
a woman, just for experiment, cross dressing, basically, that
(07:06):
ultimately was my first questionin my head is like, where is
this going? I've always said, if I still say
true to who you are, if you feellike that you've always thought
you were a female, do you need to go that direction, be honest
with me? Or is this just something you
want to do periodically? Jolene share with me, I want to
be able to express periodically to And I was like, OK, well, if
(07:26):
we're going to do this, we're going to do it right.
I did her make up the very firsttime here at the house and just
trying to understand, like, was it drag that you're looking for?
You know, And I think that that's the look that we ended up
going with like really exaggerated makeup.
Like I've seen like on television or even we looked up
on YouTube videos and things like that where they literally
(07:48):
like would glue out their eyebrows and put their eyebrows
higher. Like very drag looking
situation. She didn't feel comfortable with
it. I didn't feel comfortable with
it. And then we were like, no, this
is not. But we still had some fun with
it and we were like, OK, this may not be working.
And that's really where I was like, let's go ahead and find a
makeup artist. So at the beginning, I was kind
(08:09):
of like, this is fun. It's a fun way for us to, again,
explore a relationship in different ways and really learn
about maybe some of those desires that we each have.
It opened us up to always be able to talk about what it is
that we want because not only can she talk about what she
wants, I can as well because it's not just one side where
it's all about what Jolene needs.
(08:32):
And that was also one of the things that Jolene shared with
me. It was like, this is a benefit
to you too, because it brings out a different side of me.
And I have seen a difference in our relationship as Jolene has
become more in tune with her feminine side and how she treats
me, but also very appreciative of my accepting of her.
(08:56):
So much so that she will go out of her way to make sure she
shows her appreciation, which makes me feel more loved in the
long run. All that to be said, your
original question was like, how did it make me feel?
I feel like, and I shared with you even before we started doing
the podcast, that I try not to worry about things, about what
is to come. I just take things as they are
(09:16):
in the moment and deal with that.
I didn't foresee What does this mean?
Does this mean like a full transition?
Does this mean I'm not going to have a husband anymore?
Does this mean I'm now a lesbian?
I didn't think all of those things because I was like, let
me just manage what I have in front of me at the moment.
And that's what made it fine, you know?
So it has become a journey for both of us.
(09:39):
And I'm not going to sit here and be all limited and gum drops
and everything was all fine. There are times where I
sometimes wonder, I've said to myself, it's like, how am I in
this kind of relationship? How did I?
Get here. How did I get here?
Like how do I have right? Because I was like, I didn't
(09:59):
sign up for this. This is not what I thought I was
getting into, you know? And I've always loved a
masculine man and the things that would attribute to being
masculine, you know? And so it's definitely been an
adjustment. And I'll stop there for a minute
and let you explore that becauseI'm sure that I could go on and
on and on. Yeah, it's everybody.
Rory, at the 45 minute mark, to re illustrate what Nicole shared
(10:24):
with me prior to the podcast wasabout my worry traveling here
with the dogs because I was like, do I stay one day?
Do I stay two days? If I stay one day, I can go home
and be there for the dogs. They can stay home or I'll bring
them. They're like, yeah, bring the
dogs. We got 2 bugs.
As long as they're hypoallergenic, it'll be fine.
And but I was having all this angst about, well, one of my dog
(10:44):
pees in the house, why my dog exists.
And then it just becomes not a burden per SE, but worrying
about all the things that may happen.
Because I will say, we had talked about this too
exponentially. They have gone to other people's
houses and be like, oh, I smell dog pee.
Oh my God damn, I just walked you for an hour for this not to
happen. So having all those concerns and
just not wanting to be a bad guest.
(11:06):
And as you says, you're thinkingabout all the things that may
happen and even if you have experienced it, you don't know
that's going to happen. So to put all your worry forward
versus enjoying the moments and just living the moment is a big
difference. I was smiling as Nicole was
talking because we had a whole conversation yesterday about
spitting as Jolene's male side. Like, yes, be it, because that's
(11:30):
what men do, but Jolene would never do such a porring thing.
So we had a whole conversation yesterday about that, which I
thought was hilarious, about just the difference of decorum
and how you present yourself. I was like, so if Joe Spitz, I'm
kind of like, would Jolene do that?
And why are you doing that now? Because I hate it.
I don't like it in. Any anyway like can you be more
(11:52):
Jolene? Yeah, this part like embrace.
This moment. And for the record, Jolene
really doesn't know why Jolene doesn't spit other than I know
it's not the lady like. That's it that you do know.
But it's it's crazy how that switch flips in your head.
You're in the clothes and it's hard to explain.
That's all I can. Say, well, let's get into that
(12:14):
because this whole idea of I wasjust thinking I want to do
something different and then pops in my head, I think I'll
put on panties. I think I want to try this dress
on. It seems like too simple.
It's yes, it's too simple. It didn't come out of the ether
into your brain. So this is where I'm not saying
that you had some long harbored secret.
I'm not saying that. What I am saying is there must
(12:36):
have been something to prompt it.
It wasn't like, you know, it's post COVID.
We're empty nesters. You know what I should do?
There must have been something that drew you to the idea of it
because for many men, the idea of putting on their wife's
panties, even for fetish, would not come across their mind to be
like, you know, I should try that because that seems like the
thing to do, especially in today's social and political
(12:58):
climate. Do you have any inkling?
And you don't, I'd say if you don't know, you don't know.
That's why I'm not trying to press that.
But if there's something that prompted you that was
interesting about it, Was it theclothing?
Was did you see some on TV that somebody was in drag?
And I was like, that kind of stirs up something in me.
Yeah, well, I could thank drag Show for that.
But no, I've always been surrounded by women.
(13:20):
My wife, my two daughters. I've always appreciated the
beauty that a female presents, even a natural beauty.
Not all made-up, all pretty pretty eat up makeup earrings.
Just FYI, Nicole is gorgeous always.
I always called her a natural beauty even when we were first
(13:42):
dating. So no, being part of the
community now I feel like I havedug deep in my brain to think
were there triggers earlier in my life?
I always tell a story about in high school I got dressed up as
Cinderella but I had 7 hot OH. You were Snow White.
I mean, I'm sorry. Let's get the right fairy tale.
(14:04):
Let's edit this out. OK, so I was, I was Snow White
and I was, I was asked by the cheerleading squad football team
if I wanted to be Snow White andthey were going to all be the
Seven Dwarfs. And I was like yeah man, I get
to hang out with 7 cute girls all day and I'm all in, you
know? And there is, there's a picture
somewhere in a photo album of me, and it's a pretty hurry
(14:28):
look, Of course I had one of my mom's old German matronly
dresses on like right from the home old country or something.
Right out of Hansel and Gretel. Right out.
Of Hansel and Gretel. That's it.
That's the look I was going for.And there was that.
And then also in high school, I was Frankenstein.
(14:48):
I think it was my junior year, and my cousin painted my
fingernails black. And I liked having my
fingernails painted. And maybe those are really my
far reach back to where I like something feminine or the
feminine look on myself. OK, let's stop you there because
I hear what you're saying. Because now looking back with
2020 vision, you're trying to dig up any and all things that
(15:12):
could possibly attribute it. Or.
Yeah, I remember that one time. That must have been the genesis
or the seed. So the question then is some
maternally German woman dressed you up in an old 1930s Sunday
outfit that she had. And the question really is, did
that make you feel a certain way?
Or you're like, I don't know, I'm just going to hang out some
hot chicks today. So it was more about that, about
(15:35):
being a teenage boy than all of a sudden this dress and makeup
is making me feel a certain way.Well that was in the early 80s
and cross dressing wasn't out somuch in public view.
You were definitely looked upon as different if you did.
Maybe shunned upon, I don't know.
Did seem to just come out of midair later in life.
(15:57):
Because I went through my whole life not really having any sense
of femininity in me. I'm not an alpha male, but I do
a lot of masculine type things. My hobbies.
I've got a big truck I've got you know this.
Yes, I can attest that she has avery big truck.
But it really was like a COVID thing.
You were your mind sits and it wrestles with all this stuff,
(16:21):
like, what do I do? It also really started where I
put her underwear on one day by accident in the laundry basket
Accident. Yeah, I definitely see the
earthquakes. That wasn't an accident, but I
did have some bikini underwear, men's underwear in my drawer.
But I grabbed a pair of her bikini underwear out and at 9
(16:44):
AMI go to the men's room at workand I'm like, where's my fly?
There's no fly. Like what?
And I pulled them down and therethey were.
It was a pair of black bikini underwear.
And I was like, Oh my, I let herknow.
And I was like, I kind of like the way they feel, you know?
I will fully attest I feel that female underwear where are much
(17:05):
more supportive and much more leading to that boxer.
The best boxer still got a lot of swingage and pain going, so I
I. You know, Savannah, sorry, I
don't want to interrupt you, butI'm like, I feel like Jolene
doesn't have a definitive answer, right?
Maybe that you're looking for, maybe people don't have a lot of
people don't. And even understanding.
(17:26):
And I think that that's been oneof the hard things as Jolene's
wife for me, because I want to understand it better.
And Jolene doesn't seem to have a really good answer for it.
And then there might not be, butI was like, in order for me to
be able to understand it is like, what is it?
Because Jolene has worn earringsfor a very long time.
When I met Jolene back in the 80s, it was popular to have one
(17:48):
ear pierced and you got the second ear pierced sometime
within the past ten years or something like that, you know?
Yeah, we were on vacation. We were, it was actually our
anniversary. But for me, it was like being
edgy, you know, And Jolene has been painting her toes like
black or dark green or things like that for quite some time
now. And to me, again, it was like
(18:08):
being edgy and see rock stars who do it and things like that.
It didn't occur to me, and maybeit didn't occur to her that it
was an expression, but I also sometimes feel unsettled by not
having a really great answer about it and wondering why,
where it came from or why that'san appeal.
So maybe that's still part of the discovery.
(18:30):
But at the end of the day, she knows that she feels good doing
that. That's what.
She feels that she feels safe with you.
Right. Which is so critical to you
mentioned it fairly open with your conversation and
communication and having safe space to again explore ideas,
both of you. Not just for Jolie, but for you
too. If you want to voice something
you can and feel you can say it without being admonished or
(18:52):
whatever, that would be treated as judgment.
All of day yesterday we were judging Jolie, but that was a
whole different whole. Different.
This is a very judging group. Very, very judging.
I think I get more judgy with the longer I hang out with.
The call but. I agree with you.
I agree. I've been wrestling with the
wise for 40 some years from adolescence on, trying to figure
(19:13):
myself out. So while Elaine's only been
practicing her expansiveness in the last couple years, it also
is like it flies in the face of most of what I understand to be
true, which is you may have derailed it and suppressed it
and repressed it, but typically you don't just like, oh, you
know what, like it's not just a new hobby.
(19:34):
It's up that seemed brained in you in some way.
In that same way, I am also one several because it seems too,
too easy, right? To just like I just fell into it
and it's like here I am. But both can be true.
So it's unsettling to not know the wise by, but unsettled by my
wise for four years. Right.
Which then leads to well, why doI do this was I don't know,
(19:55):
maybe a fold in my brain is kinked the wrong way or maybe
genetically I'm predisposed. We had a car saying yesterday
about is there a genetics predisposition because a friend
that you know that is like us. And now has kids who are non
binary that are transitioning that are doing those things.
Is it because the Sphinx is so safe to explore that as
(20:16):
adolescents or it's actually part of my nature to be this
way? I just have the ability to show
it to you, but. You know, I don't think you have
to know the why. And so yes, sometimes it's
unsettling, but at the same token, people joke, but even
it's like, well, I was Born ThisWay.
But I believe that in a lot of ways it's just part of your
makeup, who you are. And if I definitely believe in
(20:37):
the the fact that if you were born male or female and you
don't identify that way, you maynever understand why somebody
doesn't identify that way, but that they feel it.
That's who they are and they need to become that person.
And there needs to be the freedom to be able to do that.
There's so many jokes about people that could be made gay
because they're around gay people and things like that.
(20:59):
I don't think that's the case either.
So you don't have to have those answers because there probably
isn't an answer. You just have to appreciate the
fact that that's who that personis.
And I know that I have loved Joeand Jolene, the person that they
are all my life. It really is most of my life
because I met Jolene when I was 18 years old.
(21:20):
I was just a baby, you know, AndI know that no matter what, it's
the person that I've been in love with all my life.
But so there's something there and that's who you are.
And I don't necessarily need to know the why, but I still
sometimes struggle with like, why now or how did you know?
Or even. And I, as much as I say I don't
(21:41):
predict the future and I try to just take the moments as they
are now, I'm not going to lie that there are sometimes
niggling feelings about what maycome of this.
You know, what am I OK with? For example, when we came back
from Keystone this year, you come back on such a high, but
there were so many people, different places in their in
their life. And some people are fully
(22:02):
transitioned and that's where they want to be.
And some people are just crossdressers.
We had a conversation about going on hormones and I was
like, wait, what? Where did this come from?
I thought that this was just a cross dressing thing.
And I'm like, I don't, I don't know if I'm ready for that, you
know, and having to sit with those feelings and what that
(22:22):
thought is, what that means for me in my life and what I want
out of the physical relationshipand everything.
And I don't know that I have an answer to it.
So I'm not going to worry about it until if it becomes a point
where I have to worry about it. But yeah, I like how you
brought. I thought that out because so
many couples struggle with the what ifs.
They get understanding of sometimes we'll never know why.
(22:44):
Totally agree. That seems to be the case.
Most times we just don't have that empirical moment of truth.
Scientists can point to that, make us the way we are.
Absolutely agree in terms of thewhat ifs, how many spouses
struggle with the All right, As long as he just does this I can
handle. Right.
Then, OK, let's hope, hopefully these are things don't happen.
All right. Oh, boom, all of a sudden we'll
(23:05):
come back from a conference and now you're all high on life and
you're thinking about these new things.
And now I have to grieve all over again with the worry of
what that's going to look like for me, both from a physical,
interpersonal dynamic. And then what does that mean for
us with the world, with our children, with people we work
with, with our neighbors? And I know that's not how life
should be, that we should worry about all these outside
(23:25):
influences that give a fuck whatthey say.
Because at the end of the day, it's you and it's you and your
partner. And you are really against the
world in all ways because you'reunited front.
But unfortunately, there's so much social indignity that comes
with every, I want to say progression, but every change in
that nuance of what your diversity looks like, you always
can't block it out because it's so prevalent in so many ways,
(23:46):
especially now. But I do like the way you
approach it because from a partner perspective, it is.
It's very healthy to live in thenow with maybe some inklings of
what may be, but don't so focus on what hasn't happened yet
because you don't know what that's going to look like.
We don't know what the future brings us and then we'll figure
it out as we go along because that's what you talked about,
(24:07):
being informed on experiential things that have occurred in
your life. But that is one of the things
that experience has informed me on is that we will find a way
through it because we have before.
Is it what I would have picked? I mean, I'm not going to, you
know, for Kim out there, no, I probably would not have said
yes, sign me up for. But what I have signed up for is
(24:27):
this person that's sitting next to me that I love beyond
measure. And that does not mean, and if
anybody ever said marriage is going to be easy, your
relationships are easy, then they're fooling themselves
because it's not. You make a choice every day of
whether or not you're going to stay with the person that you're
with. You know, every day, every every
(24:48):
day I wake up, I have to say, doI stay or do I go?
No, I'm just kidding. I don't.
But it is true, you do make choices.
Maybe once a week. Then that once a week is when
Jolene shaves to be to be Jolene.
And they're like, all right, I know that Beard's growing back.
Within three days. So I really like the beard
(25:09):
listeners. I just I really.
Yeah, so I got to hear the. I don't really think that Jolene
is sexy with a beard. I'm like, whoa, it's breakfast
time. Hold on.
Give us 5 minutes, we'll be backwell.
Let me go back to what you said about, hey, I didn't sign up for
this one. We got married.
I didn't say do you, Nicole willtake Joe soon to be Joe Lane in
30 years, as you're you know, But that is assuming a lot of
(25:32):
things in life. There's some things that are
known unknowns in life and in marriage, finances, kids, having
careers, making it all work, trying to keep things together
as a couple. Those things are things, you
know, and you're like, all right, I'm going into this
knowing those things are things to deal with whether I succeed
or not. And then you have this
seemingly, at least for people who've been married for a decade
(25:54):
or two, is an unknown unknown. Nobody even fathomed that this
could be a possibility in their life that their partner might
decide, yeah, by the way, what you thought you're getting in
life is going to change. But like you said, it's going to
change and it has changed. But what it gave you was
something more empathetic, something more compassionate, A
(26:17):
partnership that even though it was as close as it was all
through these years as a marriedcouple, that has brought you a
different sort of connection, a tighter bond in some ways.
Well, absolutely. I think that when you are able
to be your raw, authentic self no matter what and with each
other, there's no way that that's not, I mean, it's either
(26:38):
going to bring you closer together or it's going to split
you apart, right? And what we have chosen is to
embrace that. And it makes us closer together
because we feel there is nothingthat we can't say to one another
or be who we are and know that you're going to be accepted.
There is no deeper love than that.
Then to know that you're going to be accepted for who you are,
(26:58):
no matter what your flaws. And I'm not suggesting that
Jolene is a flaw, but there are other things that have occurred
in our relationships that have been clubs or things where we've
heard each other, you know, and we figured our ways through
that. We forgave.
And I don't want to be misconstrued to say that this is
a similar situation where I haveto forgive Jolene for being
(27:19):
Jolene. That's not where I'm at with
that at all. But it's just knowing people are
humans and we are not perfect and we're not going to be that
perfect person all the time or even what you expect them to be
is perfect. And if you choose to love
somebody, I mean, that's really what love is.
You accept them for who they are.
I would not think anything different of my children.
(27:39):
If my children were to come to me, I would absolutely love them
no matter who they are or what they say they are or who they
love because they are my children and I love them
unconditionally. It's no different because my
children wouldn't be here if it wasn't for my partner here, you
know? Also, you talk about the
unconditionalness of love, and alot of times the unconditional
(28:00):
love you have for your children is not necessarily the same love
people have for their partners, right?
It's not the. Same kind of love.
It's not the same type of love, but there is sometimes a
discrepancy of the unconditionalpart of it.
Like we love some things unconditionally, regardless of
the flubs, the mishaps, the errors, the changes, whatever
they might be, for good or bad. But sometimes we don't hold that
(28:23):
with the same kind of compassionate eye as we do for
our children. And I'm not saying all parents,
like, love their children unconditional either.
I mean, how many trans kids havebeen shunned and kicked out of
the house for who they are? Because the parents just like, I
can't believe I birthed you. Like, how could you do this to
me? It's like, well, I'm not doing
(28:43):
it to you. I'm doing it for myself.
I always feel like I don't understand how anybody in
society looks at another dispassionately.
If they're not hurting themselves, they're being
authentic. So like you said, authenticity
reads a different type of love and closeness, especially for
the people who appreciate you for that, whereas other people
shun you because you're different.
And I don't understand that we could get to a 20 hour
(29:05):
conversation about that. Certainly.
So let me go. I know poor Jolene's just
sitting here chomping at the bitto say something.
I've taken over the conversation.
And that's the way it should be,because.
This is what Kim wants to hear. That.
That's right. Don't wanna hear from Jolene but
you? Were planning this before you
saw the. That's right.
That's right. Which is just fortuitous.
(29:27):
So I guess Jolene, from your point of view, how do you feel
about you in where you are with Jolene?
Because again, it's been a couple years and you've had a
very supportive partner in Nicole to not be a guy, but some
would be a guy, be a mentor, give you some, hand me down some
clothing. I saw the closet today, people.
It's insanity out there. Poor Nicole has like a Foot
(29:49):
Locker with 12 items in it and Jolene is taking up the other 12
rooms. In the house, it's.
True. It's true, but with that said.
I do everything 100%. That's right, I do it or I don't
do it at all. So how are you feeling about
again, we can't break the acorn of how you got why you got here,
(30:10):
but how are you feeling about where you are now?
So one of the things, just reflecting on all the wonderful
words Nicole just spoke. I just wanted to build on that
just momentarily. I was probably three to four
months back October 2023 throughthe summer, I started thinking
about it and I reflected on all our trials and life building,
(30:32):
the family, taking care of terminally ill mother-in-law,
etcetera, etcetera and business issues and getting over all
these gigantic hurdles in life that many couples would have
just thrown in the towel. But we did.
And so it only took me 3 or 4 months to realize that this
person is so solid that I've picked for a partner in life
(30:55):
that I am going to step out on this ledge and hopefully I don't
want to get emotional. My parachute opens and, and I
hit the ground safely and I had the confidence and my partner
that that would work. So Savannah's going to edit all
(31:15):
that out there, though, and nobody's going to hear that.
So we, we forgot to mention justthree months after Jolene came
out to the public in the, in thebig city of the South here,
Nicole books us a conference, this little bitty conference
called Keystone. And I, I was out in it that
(31:37):
fast. And I said earlier, zero to 100
in the blink of an eye. And the minute those elevator
doors opened, As for all the people that have been to
Keystone, that was my aha moment.
This just feels like this is a part of me.
Not necessarily this is who I want to become fully, but I felt
(31:58):
like this was right. That was just my turning point
where I can do this. I felt like I look pretty good
to myself. We did have a long talk about it
and the first day we put makeup on that if I look like a circus
clown, we're just going to stop and I'm not going to do this for
the sake of personal embarrassment etcetera instead
(32:19):
of humility, you name it. But I actually turned out to be
pretty decent looking girl. And and so here we go.
We, you know, Jolene's trajectory is going like a
rocket at this point. We were new on the scene to
everybody. We came out of nowhere.
We made a lot of friends fast inthe community.
(32:39):
Everybody's beautiful, no matterwhat.
These were parts of my manly self that I didn't even know I
had inside of me. It just all blossomed that fast.
Which parts the the openness to people are people, no matter
what they look like, no matter what they wear.
Period. And I'm not a conservative, but
(33:01):
I probably had some conservativeviewpoints as a guy and
opinions, and I probably still have some of them.
I haven't fully grown yet. And that's the part I am trying
to embrace, that I continue to grow as a person.
I do feel like I am quite the Unicorn in the sense that I have
such a wonderful person at my side to help me through this
(33:24):
journey. And it's been nothing but
positivity for me personally. I've met wonderful people,
especially you. Savannah and this comment paid
for by Babbling. Blah blah blah.
But. Let's go check our oil.
I know how to do that and but I've met so many people also at
(33:45):
Keystone and Atlanta Comfort andother events that we've now
attended that have had quite a hard time and they've lost their
spouses and they've lost their businesses.
Their children have shown them very horrible stories that I'm
in a position that I feel so badfor these folks but yet have a
(34:07):
hard time wrapping my brain around that situation because of
my personal situation and. Our kids know, by the way.
Our kids. Our kids know.
Maybe I should just let you tellthe story because.
We'll let her retell. Yeah, yeah, but we got cornered
one night. They just invited themselves
over for dinner. We thought we were maybe going
(34:28):
to hear we have another grandbaby on the way or
something like that. They had to have a serious talk
with us. They figured it out.
Oh, OK, OK. Even though I didn't have a lot
of stuff, I was sloppy because we were empty nesters and.
Like your shoes? I get left.
Yeah. It's my.
Bras are on stannisters and it's.
(34:49):
My house and I didn't expect my kids to go in my closet and the
one outfit nosy and we're we. They knew I didn't wear 11 size
11 shoes we've. Still got a little beef with
them over that, but yeah, they, they found out pretty quick.
So it made my life a lot easier at that point because they were
(35:10):
very supportive also. And they've met me.
They've, I met Jolene. Jolene was Jolene for Halloween,
which you hear a lot in the community that.
Don't give a plaque of that. Yeah.
Jolene helped. So Jolene was.
Jolene at Halloween. And it runs but my but my
neighbor. Another aha moment I had was my
(35:31):
neighbor. Ultra conservative neighbor.
He's a guardian of the cul-de-sac.
Oh boy. He met me at my mailbox the day
after Halloween and I was horrified that he was gonna just
RIP me a new. One so he had seen me he had
seen, but it was. Halloween.
It was Halloween. Right, yeah.
And he grabbed me by my shoulders and I was like, what
(35:53):
is about to go down here? And he said, Joe, you are a
beautiful woman. And I was like.
What? What did you just?
Say like, I couldn't believe he said that to me.
In what context, other than he saw you Halloween, did he think,
oh Joe must do this more often? But just a.
(36:15):
Complimentary of your costume quote UN quote for you're
saying. But being so conservative, he
was like, well, you some sort offaggot, Yeah.
I was waiting. I was waiting for it.
I was braced. I was almost braced to take like
a punch to the face or something.
That's how conservative he is, you said.
Being a conservative by name andby label, like.
(36:37):
You, and I don't mean the label,passionate.
I don't. Yeah.
Right, some. That's exactly what it means,
that they have hatred and bigotry in our heart.
Yes, by being the conservative. That's not the main line of most
conservatives. Correct.
He has come out being more like some of his.
Maybe a little bit of a bigot, you know, at times he is a he's
(36:58):
a good guy, he's a good person. But yes, he has his opinions.
And as we all you know, yeah. And but we all can coexist.
And that's the thing and I think.
That's what I'm getting at is like, we can have opposite
viewpoints. You're entitled to him just like
you're entitled to have yours and me, mine and Nicole hers and
your neighbor his. That's awesome is when it starts
(37:18):
becoming combative and confrontational against thy
neighbor, when again, we're all supposed to just love each
other. The differences make us
beautiful. It's not the fact that I'm the
exact same issue. So I do not condone any sort of
bigotry and hatred in that vein.If you're saying he's made
comments on those lines or has ahard stance on certain type of
people. My dad was the same way.
(37:40):
My dad a hard stance on blacks in Detroit and the gays, and
that's just how he was brought up.
But he was also a very generous,a very giving, selfless person
so much of the time. And it's just hard to see, it's
hard to reconcile those two sides of the same person.
Sometimes it's just the world that they came from, the world
that they grew up in. And you can grow and change in
(38:03):
your opinions too. When you get to know people,
you're like, Oh my God, now I know somebody who is a
crossdresser, who is transgender, who is gay, are
those things. And it's like they're just like
you and I. They're human beings.
And it informs your decision. You change your opinions along
the way because you get to know people for who they are.
But I will say, going back on your story about opening the
(38:26):
elevators at Keystone. Well, before we get into
Keystone again, it looks like wegot plenty more.
So let's cut it short here and pick up next week because I want
us to have all the time in the world to talk.
So for this episode that we havehad an amazing time with Nicole
(38:48):
and Jolene, I'd like to say thank you for listening.
Hopefully this has been great for all these significant ones
in our lives as well as the relationship our Essos have with
us as gender expansive people. Be sure to check out new
episodes that come out on Wednesdays or go back to listen
to old episodes you haven't got a chance to catch up on.
(39:11):
For me, Savannah, I wish you well and until next time, you
can find me on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with
Cross Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember that's HAUK. And to learn more, go to my
website livingwithcrossdressing.com.
(39:33):
And you can find me on Instagramand Facebook at Fox and Hanger
or at Julie MTF Style, as well as on our website at
foxandhanger.com. Julie, it's your moment.
The Fox and the Phoenix Podcast uses Spotify for creators.
Copyright 2025. Yes.
(39:56):
Nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hey Julie. Julie.
Oh, sorry, Julie's not here today.
So in this special episode of Fox and Famous Podcast, I am
(00:48):
coming to you live and remote from a secret location with some
of my best friends, and that is going to be Jolene.
Jolene and Nikki. I am in their beautiful home
again, the secret location in a deep, dark bunker in the
Adirondacks where they've treated me wonderfully this
weekend. And we said, hey, you know what
(01:09):
would be awesome? Let's not go in the pool.
Let's not enjoy the day. Let's sit around the table and
have a whole podcast about it. And one thing I want to share
with the audience, which is verytelling about having this
episode be so fortuitous is I got a message on Instagram.
It comes from a partner named Kim who said, hey, missing the
(01:33):
spouse related episodes. Can you do more of those,
please? I'm struggling.
Long time listener since years ago and free to be and just want
to hear more that I can relate to.
So in honor of Kim, I figured let's pull these kiddos in and
have a conversation. So Jolene and Nikki, hi.
(01:54):
Hi. Hi.
Savannah. How are you?
Good. And hi, Kim, this one's just for
you. Wow, wow.
That is saying something. So this dedication goes out to
Kim's. Now back to the countdown.
OK, so I'm here and I love you both and you're amazing.
And you're also color coordinated a little bit.
(02:15):
I feel like I didn't get the memo, but that's OK.
And we will be absolutely going straight to the pool after this.
And our dogs are quiet. So if you hear a little
rumbling, a little tic tac in onthe floor, it's because my dogs
are still out being pests. So I know.
And every time we see Jolene, I'm like, oh, yeah, you've only
been doing this for a couple years.
And I'm like, oh, yeah. But your wife is so awesome and
(02:36):
amazing. It's apartment.
And I would just like blown awaybecause my experience is so
different than both of yours. Mine's been lifelong, multiple
partners trying to figure the shit out for eons and ages
you've been together. How long?
33 years. This month.
Wow, Wow. OK.
And just to set the stage going for you, your gender
(03:01):
expansiveness, was it a always known thing or was this just
purely like you didn't know anything about anything until
what time? So it's funny, since we've
started exploring my femme side,I mentioned it to Nicole in
October 2023. OK.
I was post COVID, I was just bored with myself and I really
(03:24):
just felt like, hey, I want to try something fun.
And maybe it was maybe a little bit of the kink.
I would say like just trying on a girl's dress or skirt or
something to that nature. And I just, I thought about it
for a while. It's turning around inside of
me. And one night I asked Nicole.
I said, can we dress me up as a girl and I'd like to try it.
(03:48):
And she said, yeah, sure. She didn't see any harm in it.
And one thing led to the next and within a month, I think she
was making a professional makeupappointment for me.
We went into the city, met a wonderful makeup artist, and she
does Hollywood makeup, regular makeup.
She also did some trans makeup in the trans community.
(04:10):
She literally taught me how to put my makeup on, go through the
whole process. And I sat there for two hours, I
think. And literally my reveal moment
when she spun me around, I couldn't believe what I was
seeing in the mirror. I was like crazy.
And that was my transformative moment where I was like, I like
(04:31):
what I see, you know? And so we just really grew into
it progressively. That very day of getting my
makeup done, Nicole had reservations at a restaurant in
the city. So it was also my first time out
in public. So I went from zero to 100
(04:53):
almost in a one day span. All right, we're going to come
back to that because I feel likethere's more to unpack there,
but I want to ask Nicole about her reaction or her thoughts and
feelings about the one. Be like, hey, I'd like to try
this. And then from that moment to the
month of creation of Jolene, youknow, and going out into the
(05:16):
world, what that's been like foryou.
Leading up to this, there was already, like you said, starting
off like whether it's a kink or whatever, wearing my underwear
or things like that. But it was always in a way that
I knew about it. It wasn't a secret or something
that was being kept from me, nothing that in the past there
were never hidden clothes. And these are a lot of the
stories that I hear from other couples, is that it was hidden.
(05:38):
There was shame involved. But for us, having recently
become empty nesters, for the most part, it allowed us the
opportunity to really reinvent ourselves as a couple too.
And then you hear a lot about when couples become empty
nesters, that they don't know each other anymore because their
whole lives have been focused onthe kids and everything.
(05:59):
And I don't think that that was us so much because we've always
made a really concerted effort to have time to focus on each
other. But having been married for 33
years, as we are now 31 at that time, obviously we have been
through some super highs and super lows.
We had found ways to grow through them, learn from one
(06:20):
another and make it through to the other side, where I feel
certain that some couples at times may have probably called
it quits. And so I think that it brought
us to a place where nothing is off limits.
That's in your heart, that's on your mind, that if you're always
open and honest about it, we canfigure a way through it.
And so I, I took it as that whenthe underwear became more a
(06:43):
little bit about let me try yourdress or let me try.
I couldn't draw my shoes becauseSteve was too big, too big.
But certain things that was fun around the house.
And I was in my mind was wondering where it was going,
you know, But when Jolene said that she wanted a dress fully as
a woman, just for experiment, cross dressing, basically, that
(07:06):
ultimately was my first questionin my head is like, where is
this going? I've always said, if I still say
true to who you are, if you feellike that you've always thought
you were a female, do you need to go that direction, be honest
with me? Or is this just something you
want to do periodically? Jolene share with me, I want to
be able to express periodically to And I was like, OK, well, if
(07:26):
we're going to do this, we're going to do it right.
I did her make up the very firsttime here at the house and just
trying to understand, like, was it drag that you're looking for?
You know, And I think that that's the look that we ended up
going with like really exaggerated makeup.
Like I've seen like on television or even we looked up
on YouTube videos and things like that where they literally
(07:48):
like would glue out their eyebrows and put their eyebrows
higher. Like very drag looking
situation. She didn't feel comfortable with
it. I didn't feel comfortable with
it. And then we were like, no, this
is not. But we still had some fun with
it and we were like, OK, this may not be working.
And that's really where I was like, let's go ahead and find a
makeup artist. So at the beginning, I was kind
(08:09):
of like, this is fun. It's a fun way for us to, again,
explore a relationship in different ways and really learn
about maybe some of those desires that we each have.
It opened us up to always be able to talk about what it is
that we want because not only can she talk about what she
wants, I can as well because it's not just one side where
it's all about what Jolene needs.
(08:32):
And that was also one of the things that Jolene shared with
me. It was like, this is a benefit
to you too, because it brings out a different side of me.
And I have seen a difference in our relationship as Jolene has
become more in tune with her feminine side and how she treats
me, but also very appreciative of my accepting of her.
(08:56):
So much so that she will go out of her way to make sure she
shows her appreciation, which makes me feel more loved in the
long run. All that to be said, your
original question was like, how did it make me feel?
I feel like, and I shared with you even before we started doing
the podcast, that I try not to worry about things, about what
is to come. I just take things as they are
(09:16):
in the moment and deal with that.
I didn't foresee What does this mean?
Does this mean like a full transition?
Does this mean I'm not going to have a husband anymore?
Does this mean I'm now a lesbian?
I didn't think all of those things because I was like, let
me just manage what I have in front of me at the moment.
And that's what made it fine, you know?
So it has become a journey for both of us.
(09:39):
And I'm not going to sit here and be all limited and gum drops
and everything was all fine. There are times where I
sometimes wonder, I've said to myself, it's like, how am I in
this kind of relationship? How did I?
Get here. How did I get here?
Like how do I have right? Because I was like, I didn't
(09:59):
sign up for this. This is not what I thought I was
getting into, you know? And I've always loved a
masculine man and the things that would attribute to being
masculine, you know? And so it's definitely been an
adjustment. And I'll stop there for a minute
and let you explore that becauseI'm sure that I could go on and
on and on. Yeah, it's everybody.
Rory, at the 45 minute mark, to re illustrate what Nicole shared
(10:24):
with me prior to the podcast wasabout my worry traveling here
with the dogs because I was like, do I stay one day?
Do I stay two days? If I stay one day, I can go home
and be there for the dogs. They can stay home or I'll bring
them. They're like, yeah, bring the
dogs. We got 2 bugs.
As long as they're hypoallergenic, it'll be fine.
And but I was having all this angst about, well, one of my dog
(10:44):
pees in the house, why my dog exists.
And then it just becomes not a burden per SE, but worrying
about all the things that may happen.
Because I will say, we had talked about this too
exponentially. They have gone to other people's
houses and be like, oh, I smell dog pee.
Oh my God damn, I just walked you for an hour for this not to
happen. So having all those concerns and
just not wanting to be a bad guest.
(11:06):
And as you says, you're thinkingabout all the things that may
happen and even if you have experienced it, you don't know
that's going to happen. So to put all your worry forward
versus enjoying the moments and just living the moment is a big
difference. I was smiling as Nicole was
talking because we had a whole conversation yesterday about
spitting as Jolene's male side. Like, yes, be it, because that's
(11:30):
what men do, but Jolene would never do such a porring thing.
So we had a whole conversation yesterday about that, which I
thought was hilarious, about just the difference of decorum
and how you present yourself. I was like, so if Joe Spitz, I'm
kind of like, would Jolene do that?
And why are you doing that now? Because I hate it.
I don't like it in. Any anyway like can you be more
(11:52):
Jolene? Yeah, this part like embrace.
This moment. And for the record, Jolene
really doesn't know why Jolene doesn't spit other than I know
it's not the lady like. That's it that you do know.
But it's it's crazy how that switch flips in your head.
You're in the clothes and it's hard to explain.
That's all I can. Say, well, let's get into that
(12:14):
because this whole idea of I wasjust thinking I want to do
something different and then pops in my head, I think I'll
put on panties. I think I want to try this dress
on. It seems like too simple.
It's yes, it's too simple. It didn't come out of the ether
into your brain. So this is where I'm not saying
that you had some long harbored secret.
I'm not saying that. What I am saying is there must
(12:36):
have been something to prompt it.
It wasn't like, you know, it's post COVID.
We're empty nesters. You know what I should do?
There must have been something that drew you to the idea of it
because for many men, the idea of putting on their wife's
panties, even for fetish, would not come across their mind to be
like, you know, I should try that because that seems like the
thing to do, especially in today's social and political
(12:58):
climate. Do you have any inkling?
And you don't, I'd say if you don't know, you don't know.
That's why I'm not trying to press that.
But if there's something that prompted you that was
interesting about it, Was it theclothing?
Was did you see some on TV that somebody was in drag?
And I was like, that kind of stirs up something in me.
Yeah, well, I could thank drag Show for that.
But no, I've always been surrounded by women.
(13:20):
My wife, my two daughters. I've always appreciated the
beauty that a female presents, even a natural beauty.
Not all made-up, all pretty pretty eat up makeup earrings.
Just FYI, Nicole is gorgeous always.
I always called her a natural beauty even when we were first
(13:42):
dating. So no, being part of the
community now I feel like I havedug deep in my brain to think
were there triggers earlier in my life?
I always tell a story about in high school I got dressed up as
Cinderella but I had 7 hot OH. You were Snow White.
I mean, I'm sorry. Let's get the right fairy tale.
(14:04):
Let's edit this out. OK, so I was, I was Snow White
and I was, I was asked by the cheerleading squad football team
if I wanted to be Snow White andthey were going to all be the
Seven Dwarfs. And I was like yeah man, I get
to hang out with 7 cute girls all day and I'm all in, you
know? And there is, there's a picture
somewhere in a photo album of me, and it's a pretty hurry
(14:28):
look, Of course I had one of my mom's old German matronly
dresses on like right from the home old country or something.
Right out of Hansel and Gretel. Right out.
Of Hansel and Gretel. That's it.
That's the look I was going for.And there was that.
And then also in high school, I was Frankenstein.
(14:48):
I think it was my junior year, and my cousin painted my
fingernails black. And I liked having my
fingernails painted. And maybe those are really my
far reach back to where I like something feminine or the
feminine look on myself. OK, let's stop you there because
I hear what you're saying. Because now looking back with
2020 vision, you're trying to dig up any and all things that
(15:12):
could possibly attribute it. Or.
Yeah, I remember that one time. That must have been the genesis
or the seed. So the question then is some
maternally German woman dressed you up in an old 1930s Sunday
outfit that she had. And the question really is, did
that make you feel a certain way?
Or you're like, I don't know, I'm just going to hang out some
hot chicks today. So it was more about that, about
(15:35):
being a teenage boy than all of a sudden this dress and makeup
is making me feel a certain way.Well that was in the early 80s
and cross dressing wasn't out somuch in public view.
You were definitely looked upon as different if you did.
Maybe shunned upon, I don't know.
Did seem to just come out of midair later in life.
(15:57):
Because I went through my whole life not really having any sense
of femininity in me. I'm not an alpha male, but I do
a lot of masculine type things. My hobbies.
I've got a big truck I've got you know this.
Yes, I can attest that she has avery big truck.
But it really was like a COVID thing.
You were your mind sits and it wrestles with all this stuff,
(16:21):
like, what do I do? It also really started where I
put her underwear on one day by accident in the laundry basket
Accident. Yeah, I definitely see the
earthquakes. That wasn't an accident, but I
did have some bikini underwear, men's underwear in my drawer.
But I grabbed a pair of her bikini underwear out and at 9
(16:44):
AMI go to the men's room at workand I'm like, where's my fly?
There's no fly. Like what?
And I pulled them down and therethey were.
It was a pair of black bikini underwear.
And I was like, Oh my, I let herknow.
And I was like, I kind of like the way they feel, you know?
I will fully attest I feel that female underwear where are much
(17:05):
more supportive and much more leading to that boxer.
The best boxer still got a lot of swingage and pain going, so I
I. You know, Savannah, sorry, I
don't want to interrupt you, butI'm like, I feel like Jolene
doesn't have a definitive answer, right?
Maybe that you're looking for, maybe people don't have a lot of
people don't. And even understanding.
(17:26):
And I think that that's been oneof the hard things as Jolene's
wife for me, because I want to understand it better.
And Jolene doesn't seem to have a really good answer for it.
And then there might not be, butI was like, in order for me to
be able to understand it is like, what is it?
Because Jolene has worn earringsfor a very long time.
When I met Jolene back in the 80s, it was popular to have one
(17:48):
ear pierced and you got the second ear pierced sometime
within the past ten years or something like that, you know?
Yeah, we were on vacation. We were, it was actually our
anniversary. But for me, it was like being
edgy, you know, And Jolene has been painting her toes like
black or dark green or things like that for quite some time
now. And to me, again, it was like
(18:08):
being edgy and see rock stars who do it and things like that.
It didn't occur to me, and maybeit didn't occur to her that it
was an expression, but I also sometimes feel unsettled by not
having a really great answer about it and wondering why,
where it came from or why that'san appeal.
So maybe that's still part of the discovery.
(18:30):
But at the end of the day, she knows that she feels good doing
that. That's what.
She feels that she feels safe with you.
Right. Which is so critical to you
mentioned it fairly open with your conversation and
communication and having safe space to again explore ideas,
both of you. Not just for Jolie, but for you
too. If you want to voice something
you can and feel you can say it without being admonished or
(18:52):
whatever, that would be treated as judgment.
All of day yesterday we were judging Jolie, but that was a
whole different whole. Different.
This is a very judging group. Very, very judging.
I think I get more judgy with the longer I hang out with.
The call but. I agree with you.
I agree. I've been wrestling with the
wise for 40 some years from adolescence on, trying to figure
(19:13):
myself out. So while Elaine's only been
practicing her expansiveness in the last couple years, it also
is like it flies in the face of most of what I understand to be
true, which is you may have derailed it and suppressed it
and repressed it, but typically you don't just like, oh, you
know what, like it's not just a new hobby.
(19:34):
It's up that seemed brained in you in some way.
In that same way, I am also one several because it seems too,
too easy, right? To just like I just fell into it
and it's like here I am. But both can be true.
So it's unsettling to not know the wise by, but unsettled by my
wise for four years. Right.
Which then leads to well, why doI do this was I don't know,
(19:55):
maybe a fold in my brain is kinked the wrong way or maybe
genetically I'm predisposed. We had a car saying yesterday
about is there a genetics predisposition because a friend
that you know that is like us. And now has kids who are non
binary that are transitioning that are doing those things.
Is it because the Sphinx is so safe to explore that as
(20:16):
adolescents or it's actually part of my nature to be this
way? I just have the ability to show
it to you, but. You know, I don't think you have
to know the why. And so yes, sometimes it's
unsettling, but at the same token, people joke, but even
it's like, well, I was Born ThisWay.
But I believe that in a lot of ways it's just part of your
makeup, who you are. And if I definitely believe in
(20:37):
the the fact that if you were born male or female and you
don't identify that way, you maynever understand why somebody
doesn't identify that way, but that they feel it.
That's who they are and they need to become that person.
And there needs to be the freedom to be able to do that.
There's so many jokes about people that could be made gay
because they're around gay people and things like that.
(20:59):
I don't think that's the case either.
So you don't have to have those answers because there probably
isn't an answer. You just have to appreciate the
fact that that's who that personis.
And I know that I have loved Joeand Jolene, the person that they
are all my life. It really is most of my life
because I met Jolene when I was 18 years old.
(21:20):
I was just a baby, you know, AndI know that no matter what, it's
the person that I've been in love with all my life.
But so there's something there and that's who you are.
And I don't necessarily need to know the why, but I still
sometimes struggle with like, why now or how did you know?
Or even. And I, as much as I say I don't
(21:41):
predict the future and I try to just take the moments as they
are now, I'm not going to lie that there are sometimes
niggling feelings about what maycome of this.
You know, what am I OK with? For example, when we came back
from Keystone this year, you come back on such a high, but
there were so many people, different places in their in
their life. And some people are fully
(22:02):
transitioned and that's where they want to be.
And some people are just crossdressers.
We had a conversation about going on hormones and I was
like, wait, what? Where did this come from?
I thought that this was just a cross dressing thing.
And I'm like, I don't, I don't know if I'm ready for that, you
know, and having to sit with those feelings and what that
(22:22):
thought is, what that means for me in my life and what I want
out of the physical relationshipand everything.
And I don't know that I have an answer to it.
So I'm not going to worry about it until if it becomes a point
where I have to worry about it. But yeah, I like how you
brought. I thought that out because so
many couples struggle with the what ifs.
They get understanding of sometimes we'll never know why.
(22:44):
Totally agree. That seems to be the case.
Most times we just don't have that empirical moment of truth.
Scientists can point to that, make us the way we are.
Absolutely agree in terms of thewhat ifs, how many spouses
struggle with the All right, As long as he just does this I can
handle. Right.
Then, OK, let's hope, hopefully these are things don't happen.
All right. Oh, boom, all of a sudden we'll
(23:05):
come back from a conference and now you're all high on life and
you're thinking about these new things.
And now I have to grieve all over again with the worry of
what that's going to look like for me, both from a physical,
interpersonal dynamic. And then what does that mean for
us with the world, with our children, with people we work
with, with our neighbors? And I know that's not how life
should be, that we should worry about all these outside
(23:25):
influences that give a fuck whatthey say.
Because at the end of the day, it's you and it's you and your
partner. And you are really against the
world in all ways because you'reunited front.
But unfortunately, there's so much social indignity that comes
with every, I want to say progression, but every change in
that nuance of what your diversity looks like, you always
can't block it out because it's so prevalent in so many ways,
(23:46):
especially now. But I do like the way you
approach it because from a partner perspective, it is.
It's very healthy to live in thenow with maybe some inklings of
what may be, but don't so focus on what hasn't happened yet
because you don't know what that's going to look like.
We don't know what the future brings us and then we'll figure
it out as we go along because that's what you talked about,
(24:07):
being informed on experiential things that have occurred in
your life. But that is one of the things
that experience has informed me on is that we will find a way
through it because we have before.
Is it what I would have picked? I mean, I'm not going to, you
know, for Kim out there, no, I probably would not have said
yes, sign me up for. But what I have signed up for is
(24:27):
this person that's sitting next to me that I love beyond
measure. And that does not mean, and if
anybody ever said marriage is going to be easy, your
relationships are easy, then they're fooling themselves
because it's not. You make a choice every day of
whether or not you're going to stay with the person that you're
with. You know, every day, every every
(24:48):
day I wake up, I have to say, doI stay or do I go?
No, I'm just kidding. I don't.
But it is true, you do make choices.
Maybe once a week. Then that once a week is when
Jolene shaves to be to be Jolene.
And they're like, all right, I know that Beard's growing back.
Within three days. So I really like the beard
(25:09):
listeners. I just I really.
Yeah, so I got to hear the. I don't really think that Jolene
is sexy with a beard. I'm like, whoa, it's breakfast
time. Hold on.
Give us 5 minutes, we'll be backwell.
Let me go back to what you said about, hey, I didn't sign up for
this one. We got married.
I didn't say do you, Nicole willtake Joe soon to be Joe Lane in
30 years, as you're you know, But that is assuming a lot of
(25:32):
things in life. There's some things that are
known unknowns in life and in marriage, finances, kids, having
careers, making it all work, trying to keep things together
as a couple. Those things are things, you
know, and you're like, all right, I'm going into this
knowing those things are things to deal with whether I succeed
or not. And then you have this
seemingly, at least for people who've been married for a decade
(25:54):
or two, is an unknown unknown. Nobody even fathomed that this
could be a possibility in their life that their partner might
decide, yeah, by the way, what you thought you're getting in
life is going to change. But like you said, it's going to
change and it has changed. But what it gave you was
something more empathetic, something more compassionate, A
(26:17):
partnership that even though it was as close as it was all
through these years as a marriedcouple, that has brought you a
different sort of connection, a tighter bond in some ways.
Well, absolutely. I think that when you are able
to be your raw, authentic self no matter what and with each
other, there's no way that that's not, I mean, it's either
(26:38):
going to bring you closer together or it's going to split
you apart, right? And what we have chosen is to
embrace that. And it makes us closer together
because we feel there is nothingthat we can't say to one another
or be who we are and know that you're going to be accepted.
There is no deeper love than that.
Then to know that you're going to be accepted for who you are,
(26:58):
no matter what your flaws. And I'm not suggesting that
Jolene is a flaw, but there are other things that have occurred
in our relationships that have been clubs or things where we've
heard each other, you know, and we figured our ways through
that. We forgave.
And I don't want to be misconstrued to say that this is
a similar situation where I haveto forgive Jolene for being
(27:19):
Jolene. That's not where I'm at with
that at all. But it's just knowing people are
humans and we are not perfect and we're not going to be that
perfect person all the time or even what you expect them to be
is perfect. And if you choose to love
somebody, I mean, that's really what love is.
You accept them for who they are.
I would not think anything different of my children.
(27:39):
If my children were to come to me, I would absolutely love them
no matter who they are or what they say they are or who they
love because they are my children and I love them
unconditionally. It's no different because my
children wouldn't be here if it wasn't for my partner here, you
know? Also, you talk about the
unconditionalness of love, and alot of times the unconditional
(28:00):
love you have for your children is not necessarily the same love
people have for their partners, right?
It's not the. Same kind of love.
It's not the same type of love, but there is sometimes a
discrepancy of the unconditionalpart of it.
Like we love some things unconditionally, regardless of
the flubs, the mishaps, the errors, the changes, whatever
they might be, for good or bad. But sometimes we don't hold that
(28:23):
with the same kind of compassionate eye as we do for
our children. And I'm not saying all parents,
like, love their children unconditional either.
I mean, how many trans kids havebeen shunned and kicked out of
the house for who they are? Because the parents just like, I
can't believe I birthed you. Like, how could you do this to
me? It's like, well, I'm not doing
(28:43):
it to you. I'm doing it for myself.
I always feel like I don't understand how anybody in
society looks at another dispassionately.
If they're not hurting themselves, they're being
authentic. So like you said, authenticity
reads a different type of love and closeness, especially for
the people who appreciate you for that, whereas other people
shun you because you're different.
And I don't understand that we could get to a 20 hour
(29:05):
conversation about that. Certainly.
So let me go. I know poor Jolene's just
sitting here chomping at the bitto say something.
I've taken over the conversation.
And that's the way it should be,because.
This is what Kim wants to hear. That.
That's right. Don't wanna hear from Jolene but
you? Were planning this before you
saw the. That's right.
That's right. Which is just fortuitous.
(29:27):
So I guess Jolene, from your point of view, how do you feel
about you in where you are with Jolene?
Because again, it's been a couple years and you've had a
very supportive partner in Nicole to not be a guy, but some
would be a guy, be a mentor, give you some, hand me down some
clothing. I saw the closet today, people.
It's insanity out there. Poor Nicole has like a Foot
(29:49):
Locker with 12 items in it and Jolene is taking up the other 12
rooms. In the house, it's.
True. It's true, but with that said.
I do everything 100%. That's right, I do it or I don't
do it at all. So how are you feeling about
again, we can't break the acorn of how you got why you got here,
(30:10):
but how are you feeling about where you are now?
So one of the things, just reflecting on all the wonderful
words Nicole just spoke. I just wanted to build on that
just momentarily. I was probably three to four
months back October 2023 throughthe summer, I started thinking
about it and I reflected on all our trials and life building,
(30:32):
the family, taking care of terminally ill mother-in-law,
etcetera, etcetera and business issues and getting over all
these gigantic hurdles in life that many couples would have
just thrown in the towel. But we did.
And so it only took me 3 or 4 months to realize that this
person is so solid that I've picked for a partner in life
(30:55):
that I am going to step out on this ledge and hopefully I don't
want to get emotional. My parachute opens and, and I
hit the ground safely and I had the confidence and my partner
that that would work. So Savannah's going to edit all
(31:15):
that out there, though, and nobody's going to hear that.
So we, we forgot to mention justthree months after Jolene came
out to the public in the, in thebig city of the South here,
Nicole books us a conference, this little bitty conference
called Keystone. And I, I was out in it that
(31:37):
fast. And I said earlier, zero to 100
in the blink of an eye. And the minute those elevator
doors opened, As for all the people that have been to
Keystone, that was my aha moment.
This just feels like this is a part of me.
Not necessarily this is who I want to become fully, but I felt
(31:58):
like this was right. That was just my turning point
where I can do this. I felt like I look pretty good
to myself. We did have a long talk about it
and the first day we put makeup on that if I look like a circus
clown, we're just going to stop and I'm not going to do this for
the sake of personal embarrassment etcetera instead
(32:19):
of humility, you name it. But I actually turned out to be
pretty decent looking girl. And and so here we go.
We, you know, Jolene's trajectory is going like a
rocket at this point. We were new on the scene to
everybody. We came out of nowhere.
We made a lot of friends fast inthe community.
(32:39):
Everybody's beautiful, no matterwhat.
These were parts of my manly self that I didn't even know I
had inside of me. It just all blossomed that fast.
Which parts the the openness to people are people, no matter
what they look like, no matter what they wear.
Period. And I'm not a conservative, but
(33:01):
I probably had some conservativeviewpoints as a guy and
opinions, and I probably still have some of them.
I haven't fully grown yet. And that's the part I am trying
to embrace, that I continue to grow as a person.
I do feel like I am quite the Unicorn in the sense that I have
such a wonderful person at my side to help me through this
(33:24):
journey. And it's been nothing but
positivity for me personally. I've met wonderful people,
especially you. Savannah and this comment paid
for by Babbling. Blah blah blah.
But. Let's go check our oil.
I know how to do that and but I've met so many people also at
(33:45):
Keystone and Atlanta Comfort andother events that we've now
attended that have had quite a hard time and they've lost their
spouses and they've lost their businesses.
Their children have shown them very horrible stories that I'm
in a position that I feel so badfor these folks but yet have a
(34:07):
hard time wrapping my brain around that situation because of
my personal situation and. Our kids know, by the way.
Our kids. Our kids know.
Maybe I should just let you tellthe story because.
We'll let her retell. Yeah, yeah, but we got cornered
one night. They just invited themselves
over for dinner. We thought we were maybe going
(34:28):
to hear we have another grandbaby on the way or
something like that. They had to have a serious talk
with us. They figured it out.
Oh, OK, OK. Even though I didn't have a lot
of stuff, I was sloppy because we were empty nesters and.
Like your shoes? I get left.
Yeah. It's my.
Bras are on stannisters and it's.
(34:49):
My house and I didn't expect my kids to go in my closet and the
one outfit nosy and we're we. They knew I didn't wear 11 size
11 shoes we've. Still got a little beef with
them over that, but yeah, they, they found out pretty quick.
So it made my life a lot easier at that point because they were
(35:10):
very supportive also. And they've met me.
They've, I met Jolene. Jolene was Jolene for Halloween,
which you hear a lot in the community that.
Don't give a plaque of that. Yeah.
Jolene helped. So Jolene was.
Jolene at Halloween. And it runs but my but my
neighbor. Another aha moment I had was my
(35:31):
neighbor. Ultra conservative neighbor.
He's a guardian of the cul-de-sac.
Oh boy. He met me at my mailbox the day
after Halloween and I was horrified that he was gonna just
RIP me a new. One so he had seen me he had
seen, but it was. Halloween.
It was Halloween. Right, yeah.
And he grabbed me by my shoulders and I was like, what
(35:53):
is about to go down here? And he said, Joe, you are a
beautiful woman. And I was like.
What? What did you just?
Say like, I couldn't believe he said that to me.
In what context, other than he saw you Halloween, did he think,
oh Joe must do this more often? But just a.
(36:15):
Complimentary of your costume quote UN quote for you're
saying. But being so conservative, he
was like, well, you some sort offaggot, Yeah.
I was waiting. I was waiting for it.
I was braced. I was almost braced to take like
a punch to the face or something.
That's how conservative he is, you said.
Being a conservative by name andby label, like.
(36:37):
You, and I don't mean the label,passionate.
I don't. Yeah.
Right, some. That's exactly what it means,
that they have hatred and bigotry in our heart.
Yes, by being the conservative. That's not the main line of most
conservatives. Correct.
He has come out being more like some of his.
Maybe a little bit of a bigot, you know, at times he is a he's
(36:58):
a good guy, he's a good person. But yes, he has his opinions.
And as we all you know, yeah. And but we all can coexist.
And that's the thing and I think.
That's what I'm getting at is like, we can have opposite
viewpoints. You're entitled to him just like
you're entitled to have yours and me, mine and Nicole hers and
your neighbor his. That's awesome is when it starts
(37:18):
becoming combative and confrontational against thy
neighbor, when again, we're all supposed to just love each
other. The differences make us
beautiful. It's not the fact that I'm the
exact same issue. So I do not condone any sort of
bigotry and hatred in that vein.If you're saying he's made
comments on those lines or has ahard stance on certain type of
people. My dad was the same way.
(37:40):
My dad a hard stance on blacks in Detroit and the gays, and
that's just how he was brought up.
But he was also a very generous,a very giving, selfless person
so much of the time. And it's just hard to see, it's
hard to reconcile those two sides of the same person.
Sometimes it's just the world that they came from, the world
that they grew up in. And you can grow and change in
(38:03):
your opinions too. When you get to know people,
you're like, Oh my God, now I know somebody who is a
crossdresser, who is transgender, who is gay, are
those things. And it's like they're just like
you and I. They're human beings.
And it informs your decision. You change your opinions along
the way because you get to know people for who they are.
But I will say, going back on your story about opening the
(38:26):
elevators at Keystone. Well, before we get into
Keystone again, it looks like wegot plenty more.
So let's cut it short here and pick up next week because I want
us to have all the time in the world to talk.
So for this episode that we havehad an amazing time with Nicole
(38:48):
and Jolene, I'd like to say thank you for listening.
Hopefully this has been great for all these significant ones
in our lives as well as the relationship our Essos have with
us as gender expansive people. Be sure to check out new
episodes that come out on Wednesdays or go back to listen
to old episodes you haven't got a chance to catch up on.
(39:11):
For me, Savannah, I wish you well and until next time, you
can find me on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with
Cross Dressing and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember that's HAUK. And to learn more, go to my
website livingwithcrossdressing.com.
(39:33):
And you can find me on Instagramand Facebook at Fox and Hanger
or at Julie MTF Style, as well as on our website at
foxandhanger.com. Julie, it's your moment.
The Fox and the Phoenix Podcast uses Spotify for creators.
Copyright 2025. Yes.
(39:56):
Nailed it.
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