August 20, 2025 • 31 mins
In this second of new episode, Savannah doesn't have Julie to kick around this week, so she enlists her Atlanta "hostesses with the mostess" to come on air. Jolene is a fairly recent addition to the queer, gender-expansive community. She and her wife, Nicole, have been married for years, with grown kids, and a now empty-nesting home. What happens when the kids go live their own lives and a laundry SNAFU sends an unsuspecting husband down a strange and exciting road of feminine self-discovery? And, how does a wife, whose panties were accidentally worn by her husband one day, react and come to embrace this new person in her life?
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, Understanding
the feminine cross wrestling experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross wrestler,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker and author of the Living
with Cross Wrestling book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hey, Nicole. Hey, Jolene, back again for Part
2. We were talking about Jolene and
Halloween and seeing people in the neighborhood, so we're going
to pick up right from there and get right back into it.
(00:50):
Enjoy. Jolene was Jolene for Halloween,
which you hear a lot in the community that.
Don't you have a plaque of that?Yeah.
Jolene help. So Jolene was Jolene?
And Halloween. But my but my neighbor.
Another aha moment I had was my neighbor.
Ultra conservative neighbor. He's a guardian of the
cul-de-sac. Oh boy.
(01:11):
He met me at my mailbox the day after Halloween and I was
horrified that he was going to just RIP me a new one.
So. He had seen you, and it was
Halloween. It was Halloween and he grabbed
me by my shoulders and I was like what is about to go down
here? And he said, Joe, you are a
(01:34):
beautiful woman. And I was like.
What? What did you just say?
Like I couldn't believe he said that to me.
In what context, other than he saw you Halloween, did he think,
oh Joe must do this more often? Just the.
Complimentary of your costume. Quote UN quote.
For you're saying, but being so conservative, he was like, well,
(01:56):
you're some sort of faggot. Yeah, yeah, I was waiting.
I was waiting for it. I was braced.
I was almost braced to take likea punch to the face or
something. That's how conservative he is.
But you said being a conservative by name and by
label. Psych you and I don't mean the
label passionate. I don't, yeah.
Right. I mean, for some that's exactly
(02:17):
what it means, that they have hatred and bigotry in our
hearts. Yes, by being.
A conservative? That's not the main line of most
conservatives, correct? I think he has come out being
more with some of his bigotry and.
Stuff, maybe a little bit of a bigot, you know, at times he is
a he's a good guy, he's a good person.
But yes, he has his opinions. As we all you know.
(02:38):
Yeah, and we all can coexist andthat's the thing.
But I think. That's what I'm getting at is
like, we can have opposite viewpoints.
You're entitled. So just like you're entitled to
have yours and me mine and Nicole hers and your neighbor
his. That's awesome is when it starts
becoming combative and confrontational against thy
neighbor. When again, we're all supposed
(02:59):
to just love each other. The differences make us
beautiful. It's not the fact that I'm the
exact same issue. So I do not condone any sort of
bigotry and hatred in that vein.If you're saying he's made
comments on those lines or has ahard stance on certain type of
people. My dad was the same way.
My dad had a hard stance on blacks in Detroit and the gays,
(03:20):
and that's just how he was brought up.
But he was also a very generous,a very giving, selfless person
so much of the time. And it's just hard to see, it's
hard to reconcile those two sides of the same person.
Sometimes it's just the world that they came from, the world
that they grew up in. And you can grow and change in
your opinions too. When you get to know people,
(03:41):
you're like, Oh my God, now I know somebody who is a cross
dresser, who is transgender, whois gay, are those things.
And it's like, they're just likeyou and I.
They're human beings. And it informs your decision.
You change your opinions along the way because you get to know
people for who they are. I will say, going back on your
story about opening the elevators at Keystone, it was
(04:01):
also helpful for me too, becauseI originally was feeling like,
is our people out there like this?
You know, I mean, is this really?
People like Jolene, Yeah. Jolene, Jolene and also couples,
you know, and there were more couples this year than there
were last year. That probably is growing year
over year. It's because of us, by the way.
(04:22):
We turned it into a. Thing yeah, but that's been very
helpful for me too, making friendships with other sis,
wives who are married to cross dressers or even people who are
transitioned that to really justthose shared experiences.
And it really is such a beautiful place.
I think I shared with you, Savannah, that you were one of
(04:45):
the people that I couldn't wait to see together.
We went to Keystone this year, you know, because I don't know,
you just impacted me so much. Your story, the person you are,
you're very thoughtful, you're very deep, and you do a good job
to me of putting words to thingsas to maybe what made you who
you are. And it's helped me and my
understanding as well as why people may choose to be.
(05:07):
And it's not even choose. I think you did a podcast a few
podcasts ago about choice, you know, and I don't think that's
silly that it is a choice. You make a choice whether you
get the clothes on every day, and sometimes you choose not to
because it's a hassle. We talked about that yesterday
too. It's like Jolene takes 3 hours
to get ready and that's a commitment.
Yeah, we need to have a podcast about that, too.
(05:28):
Jolene and I spend much of time poolside trying to dissect the
things that Jolene might process, process.
But a lot of things about the nails, that's just 20 minutes.
There's a lot of accessorizing beyond the time to physically
get ready, so she takes a much more care.
She's much more deliberate and that's all.
(05:48):
I like little things she wants to do, so we'll get her there.
We're. Gonna not put on nails or do.
You just no, I used to. I used to.
I used to have a mole in pill boxes.
Yeah. Yeah, so I knew.
Yeah. So I knew.
Which finger they went to and then I just pulled off the
little thing. It's just the kiss style.
You just like, you peel off, youstick them on, and then by the
end of the night you'd be wavingat somebody and two of your
nails be missing, that kind of thing.
(06:09):
Eject. Yeah.
You find on the floor in your car, that's where here being
sloppy comes in and unbeknownst to you, Yeah, meaning that and I
shouldn't be tapping the table. Unbeknownst to you, where all of
a sudden you look over, there's an airing a big thumbnail that's
never the right size thumb because we have big thumbs.
So after a while that I went to a it's called the winter ball on
(06:30):
Long Island. It was a benefit event and I'm
in the car because I'm supposed to meet my plus one.
They invite outs plus one supposed to beat them there and
I was trying to get there in time.
I didn't have time to do the nails and in the car trying to
do the nails like put them. Off you mean?
Take put them on to go inside and I just it was just like not
working It's like when I put my contacts in either they go in
(06:50):
within 3 seconds or it takes me 25 minutes to get them to get
sucked in there because I do nothave blue eyes everybody because
FYI. So I just decided at one point
it wasn't worth the hassle. My nails, I usually eat manicure
well enough that and Jolene and I spoke about this yesterday
because I said Jolene, you got very slender fingers she's like,
yeah, but he put the nails on itjust so much more slender And I
(07:12):
get it. There's almost like magical
conductor Symphony type of thingwhere you have with these nails,
it's just very feminine you get to look at them and make sure
your pants look them into yourself.
But I was realizing for myself, one, I'm lazy.
I don't need to take another 20-30 minutes do that just to
complete the ensemble. And then secondly, I got more
comfortable with not the requirement of those nails to
(07:36):
make me feel feminine in my bodyin that way.
We've talked about another podcast where Julie has spoken
about that thing where you can just look at your nails and you
just embody it through the hands.
You just see that femininity in front of you like a first person
shooter game or you can feel very feminine.
And there's that which I fully endorse.
And then there's a well, if you don't need it to feel feminine,
(07:58):
that's also a different part of growth in your spiritual right.
So they had to say that lends tothe three hours that it.
Yeah, sorry guys. We took a, we took a detour
about what can doleen do to be done in 90 minutes.
That's really what this was. And they don't need nails
podcast so. That's true.
The only person downed up today and actually really Rico almost
(08:19):
like royalty gown is Nicole the coolest.
I know her hair's quaffed. It's up.
She has like a Pearl comb thing in her hair.
It's pretty wild. I I wish I took a picture.
Actually, I did. Pajamas.
Actually, yes, we actually all are in our weekend clothes for
sure. So I actually want to hear more
(08:39):
about Keystone. We talked about if this don't
look good, we ain't getting off the elevator and we just will go
mail mode and just be there. And I love, thank you so much
for both of you talking about meeting me because that always
just enriches the reason why I do the thing I do because
sometimes it's very abstract about the people I touch with
what we do. What prompted you?
(09:01):
And I'm assuming it's just the same thing as prompting the
makeup artist? How did you get to the point of
saying, Oh yeah, let's go do this keystroke thing?
I'm going to book it. I think it's about, again,
originally at the top of this podcast, you asked Jolene about
why the why. And for me, it requires more
exploration, discover what worksfor you, what does it mean for
(09:24):
you, what extent you're going togo through.
And it helps to also do that in the mix of other people who are
also experiencing that. I think nowadays anytime
somebody's experiencing something new, you can just go
to the Internet, right? And you can type something in
and you just find all these things that are popping up.
I had no idea that conferences existed for crossdressers or
(09:47):
transgender or any of those things.
And so even it just in my search, it popped up.
It was one of the first things that popped up.
And I was like, I think that from my own understanding, I
have to explore it more and not only understand it from Jolene's
point of view, but see how it works in the context of the
world and how it works in the context of other people.
And that was one of the things that I found most beneficial for
(10:10):
me was hearing other people's stories as well.
And everybody was very open and didn't mind me.
And I asked a lot of people a lot of questions.
Probably way more probing than Ishould have bet, you know, like
do you talk or do you, you know,I never asked a question.
I was kidding. But but I am curious.
But, but it's like, where is this going for you?
You know, what is, does it mean for you?
(10:31):
And understanding there are so many different variations of
where people are in their journey or where they're even
going to go in their journey andwhere the endpoint is in their
journey. And that helped me to understand
it better that there isn't one mold that fits all.
And there are more people like me, even women who are trying to
figure out this out with their spouses who now want to be
(10:51):
presenting as a woman. And so I did it for myself as
much as I did it for Joey. That makes sense.
And so adding on to that, you took the Essos.
Significant other track definitely and meeting other
significant others and I definitely learned that you
know, there's some or didn't even show up as I speaking
(11:12):
around dinner tables. I was like, oh, I would never
get my wife to be able to be here.
And. Things like that.
But then those who did show up, there were people who struggled
and people who were a OK and people who even entered the
relationship with their significant other already
knowing that, and they were accepting of that from the very
beginning. They didn't have to discover or
learn where they were even lied to, you know, and having to deal
(11:32):
with the fact that they were lied to.
So many different variations of where people are that it was
helpful to have those conversations and understand
what that means for other peoplecoming from where I'm coming
from. And so I still will join the SO
meetings periodically because there's like once a month.
Oh, the zoom. Call, Zoom call, yeah.
And it's that's very helpful forme to hear how other people are
(11:54):
dealing with that. I will say also that in some
ways it was uncomfortable for meme because I was in some ways
put on a pedestal. And I'm going to say that word
because there were other cross dressing men who couldn't
believe that Jolene had a wife that was so accepting.
And there they had that involved.
(12:14):
And it really put me up there and I'm like, don't do that.
I'm not comfortable there because I don't know that I'm
always going to be OK. And I don't want to then present
or come across as, Oh, my gosh, she really isn't in there for
him, you know, or she does struggle or she does have
questions because of course I do.
Of course I do. I'm not always like, yay, me.
(12:35):
I have a husband that's cross dressing.
Of course I have thoughts and doubts and some parts of it that
I'm like, what, how did I sign up for this in my life or
whatever, or how did I get this in my life?
Of course I have those questions.
And I don't want to be presentedas this person that has it all
together because then I feel like it doesn't allow me then to
have my vulnerability. Yeah.
No, I love the way you said thatbecause that's so true.
(12:57):
Yes, you would be concerned. The Unicorn of spouses, we've
talked about that on air a few times.
And in fact, like you said, you're considered a Unicorn
because of the fact that you areso evolved, so accepting any of
the ways that you're accepting or showing up for Jolene and
Jolene is showing up for you andthat it the partnership is shown
(13:18):
like every partnership should show up in whatever however it
looks, right? Not just cross dressing or
gender diversity. For the challenge and yeah.
Right, whatever and all the stuff, the partnership, yeah,
the partnership looks like a partnership should look like in
that way. And unfortunately for many of us
who've not seen or had a partnerwho I don't say rose the
(13:39):
occasion, but was vulnerable andinvolved and supportive, and
everybody's on a similar page ingrowing forward together, it can
be considered something that's not possible.
I spent many years of my youth believing that nobody could love
me for having the side of Savannah within me.
And that's a terrible way to like live.
(14:00):
Life. I would imagine so.
And this goes back to what you said.
It's like you saw partners who were there but uncomfortable.
They're feeling betrayed and grieving what they thought they
had in a relationship, not showing up at all and leaving
their partners to feel less thanbecause now they're seeing other
partners who even showed up. It comes in all sizes and I'm
not admonishing anybody who didn't show up because they're
(14:22):
going through their own cycle ofgrief and feelings to know what
to do. The only thing I'm going to say
from a selfish point of view is,as I said, this is not just a
hobby for me. We talked, I think we talked
about this off era where if you're a football widow, you
lose your her husband for the weekend, either Sunday or
Saturday and Sunday because that's their hobby and go like,
(14:43):
oh, well, you know, he's gone again or he's gone fishing
again. And I'm just by myself.
But I want him to have, you know, him to be happy as long as
he's happy and he's out of my hair.
Whatever the narrative might look like.
The difference is cross dressingor the act of cross dressing is
not a hobby. It is part inherently of our
nature to be whether developed like Jolene in the last couple
(15:06):
of years since I was 5-6 years old trying to figure it all out.
The one thing I'd like people toas partners or friends or
families to just recognize like you said, Nicole, we choose to
be authentic. We don't choose to just decide
to be a cross dresser. So in our authenticity of
choosing ourselves and our authenticity is not a hobby.
(15:27):
It's part of who we are. It's part of our humanity.
So sometimes when we are or feelrejected, our perception of
rejection by the people who loveus, it will feel doubly or
triply hurtful because the people we love most who want to
be at our side in these moments,in these challenges.
And how can you really have thattrue intimacy if you're not
(15:49):
doing that? I mean, there's a piece missing
where you're not fully and you maybe feel rejected by your
significant other or you don't want to hear about it, you don't
want to know about it, you don'twant to see it.
And then you're really setting yourself up or a division.
I think that's going to show itself in other ways in your
relationship because if you're not accepting of the person and
(16:11):
who they are, and I'm not here to, I'm not trying to admonish
this is my Nicole's perspective,OK, of how I come to this.
Joe's accepted me for who I am and all and my flaws and I have
them. I'm definitely not perfect and
has loved me through that no matter what.
And that's what loving couples do for one another.
That's how I see a relationship.And if I try to pretend like a
(16:34):
piece of him doesn't exist, thenwe're never able to be our
truthful selves with one another.
Whether in action or thought or Jolene's allowed to be 100%
them, but only in secret or private or away from you.
But then there's a full expectation that because you're
not gender diverse that Jolene should accept all of you 100%
(16:55):
all the time out loud. It's also it's uneven.
The equity of the conversation is different.
It's like I accept you fully foreverything that's about you,
Nicole. But Jolene, I accept you fully,
but with these five caveats exactly.
And, and that is, and I'm not saying that's not a conversation
to have because everybody needs to find their balance.
But if it is not a conversation,it's just like I've decreed that
(17:19):
you need to do this for me because I don't know how to deal
with it. There's more to be done there.
That's therapy. That is conversation that is
coming to terms with your own truth.
You may be making different decisions.
Not everybody works out because sometimes that divide is too
great. But if you both come to the
table with authenticity and openness and compassion, then
(17:40):
you're going to get a lot closerto your loving dynamic in all
ways. And.
There's no doubt that any challenge that you come across
in a relationship, people may come to a place where they're
like, I do not see my life like this.
And, and it affects both people.What Jolene is doing 100%
affects me as a partnership. You can't pretend like it
(18:04):
doesn't, you know, But at the same time, that's who she is.
I mean, and it's up to me whether or not I'm OK with that.
And some people may choose not that they're not OK with that.
And people have to be able to take care of themselves too and
know what's right for them and choose what you can and cannot
manage in your life or whatever.Because then if you're not
(18:25):
allowing that person to be who they are because you're not able
to cope with it or able to, I don't even want to say cope with
it because I definitely, I'm nottrying to shame anybody that
says this is not the life I signed up for.
And we may need to go our separate ways because certainly
people will come to those decisions, you know, but that's
not my decision. Right.
Yeah. I want to point out something
(18:45):
that Jolene said earlier. And I did think it was given
enough breath, but I thought it was super important where as
you've shown lots of compassion to Jolene for the development of
Jolene in different ways. And conversely, as a typical
response to that, Jolene's now able to show you the more
appreciation in return because Jolene recognizes those things
(19:07):
that you are doing for their growth to loving them and that
they're able to more freely wantto give you back that attention,
that attention and that appreciation.
Very true. And Lola and Loki are being
their authentic self, too. They're authentic.
Doggy like. How dare you keep me quiet?
(19:28):
Don't you quiet me. I have a voice.
Damn it. They were actually very good,
other than when the package cameto the door, we had to take a
pause. But yeah.
So in clothing closing, in closing.
And. Because we're going to get out
of these clothes and go into pool clothes soon and I don't
want to short change that adventure.
(19:48):
So we'll start with you. Poor Jolene wonders why she was
even here. Although we love your
authenticity and your tears and we love that.
But what would you have to say in terms of your journey?
With Nicole as your significant one, what advice would you give?
I feel like, again, we're quite different in so many ways
(20:10):
because everything is working right now and I don't see why it
wouldn't work. Our respect for each other's
emotions in our relationship of 33 years with our children and
all our loved ones involved. I hurt for the couples that
don't have the ability to be open and maybe something in a
(20:34):
sense wasn't right for them fromthe get go.
I got married for convenience, whatever it could have been
their attraction. There has to be a true love for
a person to be in my position tobe able to say I would like to
do this. Do I have your permission?
I asked for her permission. I didn't tell her I'm going to
do this. I didn't force it on her.
(20:55):
And that is, I think gigantic insaving a relationship or
preventing a relationship from going South.
And again, just very blessed to be in that position to have a
person, a partner in life that Ican do that with.
It's definitely been an eye opener for me because I see
things through so many differentlenses now that I didn't just as
(21:19):
the guy, you know, male mode. And I'm grateful for that
opportunity to grow and understand the LGBTQ community
to a level I've never understoodit.
I really just went into this saying, hey, I just want to
dress like a girl and really wasn't even thinking about the
community outside. But now we've been to San Diego,
(21:40):
we've been to San Francisco, we've been partying in Atlanta,
we've been submersed in the community at Keystone and ACC
Atlanta Conference, and it's such a wonderful, beautiful
group of people. I'm very distraught at the
situation in the world right nowwith how this community is
viewed upon because I only see the most loving, genuine people
(22:03):
and coming from the other side just as that guy that I didn't
shun anybody in the community, but I didn't give it much
thought. I was just in my own guy world,
you know, I've always respected everybody just as another human
being, but never was submersed in it as I am now.
And it's a beautiful place and I've met more beautiful, genuine
(22:26):
people that I know are just truehuman beings.
They're not fake more in the last two years than I have my
entire life, People that I trulycare about you being one of them
and and our extended Keystone family and all that.
So it has made me a better person.
And I thank my beautiful wife for letting me have this journey
(22:51):
and the journey we're taking together.
And I just, I hope and pray for more couples out there that they
can have a similar experience. That's all I can hope for.
Well said before we get to you Nicole, because I'm going to ask
you a question about this beautiful woman here, your
spouse in the comments she's made.
(23:11):
I totally agree. Once it goes past just your
needs and you start hearing the stories, you start meeting other
people that have similar journeys and then realizing you
find more enrichment in journeysthat are not like yours, but are
even more diverse than what you even understood to be, which
gives you a huge appreciation. With that said, I have another
(23:33):
question, which is Jolene said she got your permission.
And so I want to tackle this in a very because we talked about
this yesterday, because I want your take on this uncle you
asked for permission. I want to think about it in my
brain is that you became collaborators and not like, Hey,
is it OK if I do this? It may have come out and been
spoken that way as an ask. Well, it seems to me that was
(23:56):
more collaborative because I know that, Nicole, you took a
lot of onus to pursue things to,to make it happen to, to go
through. I'm going to book this.
I'm we're going to Keystone, whether he said it was someone
self-serving or not, absolutely you've got your own gains out of
it. So in closing, but also to
answer the question, do you feelit was more of Jolene asking for
(24:16):
your permission to do it or morefor asking you to be a partner
in this journey? Oh absolutely the latter of what
you just said. It's my way of handling change
to take control. Take charge, Marge.
That's just who I am as a person.
I feel less anxiety, less stress, even more understanding
(24:40):
if I have some ownership of it as well.
I don't know that I could have approached it any other way just
because of the kind of person I.AM.
That I would in some way, shape or form have to have some sort
of control over this situation in order to feel like it wasn't
something that was happening to me.
But that's something that I could be a partner, right?
(25:03):
So that mode of myself, I don't even, I don't even have to think
about it anymore because it's just like I said, it's who I am.
I could sit there and be like, why is this happening to me?
Or the only way to have less stressless anxiety in order to
be a partner in it, I have to have a little bit of control.
And so I. Like ownership though, because
feels like every part of it is within my purview.
(25:24):
Right. And I don't, honestly, I don't
have control over this situation, but I have to feel
like I don't have a loss of control.
Right. Yeah.
You know, and no say in it. And I think that Jolene, knowing
who I am, you know, came to it from a place of asking for
permission only because. Or assistance.
Or assistance, but it was it waslike can are you OK with me
(25:45):
doing this? I mean, literally did say are
you OK with me doing this? Because she didn't want to be it
to be a secret for one that was very important to her is it
didn't want to be. She didn't want to be hiding
things from me, which I ultimately appreciated.
I saw the vulnerability in that,how that may have been very hard
for her to do and appreciated that as well.
(26:09):
That that must take a lot and trust in me that you could come
to me. And so I saw that in the
question as well. Therefore, I think it's on me as
a partner and spouse to not ruinthat moment, if you will.
It's kind of like you're about like how you should handle your
kids when they come to you with something that they're
(26:30):
struggling with. The more you overreact about it
or you say you can't do that andthe less that they're going to
come to you and be open or be vulnerable.
You know, you have to sit in themoment and not overreact or not
have that gut reaction because then you're going to ruin that
trust. And then that I think that
applies in anything. It applies in my business world,
(26:51):
my work that I do that you always have when people bring
something to you, but especiallyapplies in your relationship
with your spouse. You know, if somebody comes to
you without vulnerability or something that's like, I've been
thinking about this, are you OK with it?
My mind is like all of a sudden this tornado like things.
But I knew my initial reaction had to be a non reaction if you
(27:12):
will, because otherwise that would close off any doors for a
further conversation. About it, the park.
I mean, you're a therapist, right?
You're a professional. Therapist.
Nurse, I mean. You're a kid.
You're in the medical field and this is methyl.
Yeah, I remember. And sometimes I do feel like
that, that even with my employees as they come into my
(27:32):
office or things like that, sometimes I feel like I'm a
therapist because it's like you're always there dealing with
people. And when you deal with people,
whether it's patients or your employees or things of that
nature, you're always, you have to give people a space to be
able to speak. And that is perfection because
unfortunately we find that a lotof people don't have one either
the ability to voice the need because they don't have the
(27:55):
language or they just can't vocalize what that thing is.
And then like you say, from a partner standpoint of being able
to sit in the moment without whatever all the world view.
Well, your culture, your religion, your politics, all
that things are going to make you want to look utter
something. They may be unkind or maybe
(28:17):
shutting down the conversation. As long as you can sit in that
space and have a conversation like that doesn't mean you're
devoid of agency. That doesn't mean you don't have
a say in your own feelings. So that that all being true,
it's just like I said, not overreacting or not judging.
Being vulnerable is a very raw open state.
(28:38):
So like you said, if Jolene comes to you in a very raw open
state and vulnerability and an ask of like I said, all the
nuance in the in between the lines of what was being asked
and then reacting like, hell no,we're just like completely not
open to it. That's not going to sit well for
Jolene, which will just breed other problems of secrecy and
and going outside the home like Oh yeah, I'm with so and so
(29:00):
we're at a cabin efficient and all they're doing is bringing
all their pretty close address up and is harmless as they may
be, it's still this measure of trust that is lost because the
safe space inside the relationship was not breached,
but it's broken. So all right.
Well with that, this has been amazing as you can see audience.
We could talk for hours and I really have and we will
(29:24):
additionally and maybe we'll just mic ourselves up in the
pool with waterproof mics. And you know, baby, well, that
was one of the stipulations thatthey would only come on air if
sober, they want to have controltheir faculties and maybe not
say certain things they don't want to be said.
So that was unfortunately, I miss out on that fun.
But that being said, I have no idea how long we've been talking
(29:47):
and I know we could just continue to go and I'll probably
just have you back on another time for Kim or for yourselves.
Well, whoever, thank you so muchfor being here.
Thank you for letting me stay inyour home for the weekend with
my pooches. It's been amazing so far, so
fun, and they are fantastic cooks, everybody.
Just FYI, I haven't treated any good.
They've been making sure I've been taken care of and it's been
(30:10):
amazing. Just remember, almost every
Wednesday there's a new episode and they've taken a break
because I'm hanging out with my peeps and their secret location
and Androndix. Maybe I don't edit an episode
and maybe it doesn't come out onWednesday, but like Nicole has
told me, she's a more recent listener and she's got a huge
backlog catalog the show to listen to, so I don't want to
(30:33):
keep bringing new stuff into theworld when she's still trying to
get the old stuff. There's so much stuff to catch
up on. And she only can listen in the
car on the way to work. So, you know, we're not sitting
here all day just binging on Foxin the Phoenix.
But but they will get to binge on Savannah all day.
So absolutely no, no, no, no. Heather.
So with that, thank you. Everybody can think this lovely
(30:55):
couple. So with that I will say until
next time. Goodbye.
Bye bye route. You can find me on Facebook at
Savannah Hawk or at living with Cross dressing and on Instagram
at Savannah hawk. Remember that's.
HAUK. And to learn more, go to my
(31:15):
website livingwithcrossdressing.com.
And you can find me on Instagramand Facebook at Fox and Hangar
or at Julie MTF Style, as well as on our website at
foxandhangar.com. Julie, it's your moment.
The Fox and the Phoenix podcast uses Spotify for creators.
(31:38):
Copyright 2025. Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, Understanding
the feminine cross wrestling experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross wrestler,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker and author of the Living
with Cross Wrestling book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hey, Nicole. Hey, Jolene, back again for Part
2. We were talking about Jolene and
Halloween and seeing people in the neighborhood, so we're going
to pick up right from there and get right back into it.
(00:50):
Enjoy. Jolene was Jolene for Halloween,
which you hear a lot in the community that.
Don't you have a plaque of that?Yeah.
Jolene help. So Jolene was Jolene?
And Halloween. But my but my neighbor.
Another aha moment I had was my neighbor.
Ultra conservative neighbor. He's a guardian of the
cul-de-sac. Oh boy.
(01:11):
He met me at my mailbox the day after Halloween and I was
horrified that he was going to just RIP me a new one.
So. He had seen you, and it was
Halloween. It was Halloween and he grabbed
me by my shoulders and I was like what is about to go down
here? And he said, Joe, you are a
(01:34):
beautiful woman. And I was like.
What? What did you just say?
Like I couldn't believe he said that to me.
In what context, other than he saw you Halloween, did he think,
oh Joe must do this more often? Just the.
Complimentary of your costume. Quote UN quote.
For you're saying, but being so conservative, he was like, well,
(01:56):
you're some sort of faggot. Yeah, yeah, I was waiting.
I was waiting for it. I was braced.
I was almost braced to take likea punch to the face or
something. That's how conservative he is.
But you said being a conservative by name and by
label. Psych you and I don't mean the
label passionate. I don't, yeah.
Right. I mean, for some that's exactly
(02:17):
what it means, that they have hatred and bigotry in our
hearts. Yes, by being.
A conservative? That's not the main line of most
conservatives, correct? I think he has come out being
more with some of his bigotry and.
Stuff, maybe a little bit of a bigot, you know, at times he is
a he's a good guy, he's a good person.
But yes, he has his opinions. As we all you know.
(02:38):
Yeah, and we all can coexist andthat's the thing.
But I think. That's what I'm getting at is
like, we can have opposite viewpoints.
You're entitled. So just like you're entitled to
have yours and me mine and Nicole hers and your neighbor
his. That's awesome is when it starts
becoming combative and confrontational against thy
neighbor. When again, we're all supposed
(02:59):
to just love each other. The differences make us
beautiful. It's not the fact that I'm the
exact same issue. So I do not condone any sort of
bigotry and hatred in that vein.If you're saying he's made
comments on those lines or has ahard stance on certain type of
people. My dad was the same way.
My dad had a hard stance on blacks in Detroit and the gays,
(03:20):
and that's just how he was brought up.
But he was also a very generous,a very giving, selfless person
so much of the time. And it's just hard to see, it's
hard to reconcile those two sides of the same person.
Sometimes it's just the world that they came from, the world
that they grew up in. And you can grow and change in
your opinions too. When you get to know people,
(03:41):
you're like, Oh my God, now I know somebody who is a cross
dresser, who is transgender, whois gay, are those things.
And it's like, they're just likeyou and I.
They're human beings. And it informs your decision.
You change your opinions along the way because you get to know
people for who they are. I will say, going back on your
story about opening the elevators at Keystone, it was
(04:01):
also helpful for me too, becauseI originally was feeling like,
is our people out there like this?
You know, I mean, is this really?
People like Jolene, Yeah. Jolene, Jolene and also couples,
you know, and there were more couples this year than there
were last year. That probably is growing year
over year. It's because of us, by the way.
(04:22):
We turned it into a. Thing yeah, but that's been very
helpful for me too, making friendships with other sis,
wives who are married to cross dressers or even people who are
transitioned that to really justthose shared experiences.
And it really is such a beautiful place.
I think I shared with you, Savannah, that you were one of
(04:45):
the people that I couldn't wait to see together.
We went to Keystone this year, you know, because I don't know,
you just impacted me so much. Your story, the person you are,
you're very thoughtful, you're very deep, and you do a good job
to me of putting words to thingsas to maybe what made you who
you are. And it's helped me and my
understanding as well as why people may choose to be.
(05:07):
And it's not even choose. I think you did a podcast a few
podcasts ago about choice, you know, and I don't think that's
silly that it is a choice. You make a choice whether you
get the clothes on every day, and sometimes you choose not to
because it's a hassle. We talked about that yesterday
too. It's like Jolene takes 3 hours
to get ready and that's a commitment.
Yeah, we need to have a podcast about that, too.
(05:28):
Jolene and I spend much of time poolside trying to dissect the
things that Jolene might process, process.
But a lot of things about the nails, that's just 20 minutes.
There's a lot of accessorizing beyond the time to physically
get ready, so she takes a much more care.
She's much more deliberate and that's all.
(05:48):
I like little things she wants to do, so we'll get her there.
We're. Gonna not put on nails or do.
You just no, I used to. I used to.
I used to have a mole in pill boxes.
Yeah. Yeah, so I knew.
Yeah. So I knew.
Which finger they went to and then I just pulled off the
little thing. It's just the kiss style.
You just like, you peel off, youstick them on, and then by the
end of the night you'd be wavingat somebody and two of your
nails be missing, that kind of thing.
(06:09):
Eject. Yeah.
You find on the floor in your car, that's where here being
sloppy comes in and unbeknownst to you, Yeah, meaning that and I
shouldn't be tapping the table. Unbeknownst to you, where all of
a sudden you look over, there's an airing a big thumbnail that's
never the right size thumb because we have big thumbs.
So after a while that I went to a it's called the winter ball on
(06:30):
Long Island. It was a benefit event and I'm
in the car because I'm supposed to meet my plus one.
They invite outs plus one supposed to beat them there and
I was trying to get there in time.
I didn't have time to do the nails and in the car trying to
do the nails like put them. Off you mean?
Take put them on to go inside and I just it was just like not
working It's like when I put my contacts in either they go in
(06:50):
within 3 seconds or it takes me 25 minutes to get them to get
sucked in there because I do nothave blue eyes everybody because
FYI. So I just decided at one point
it wasn't worth the hassle. My nails, I usually eat manicure
well enough that and Jolene and I spoke about this yesterday
because I said Jolene, you got very slender fingers she's like,
yeah, but he put the nails on itjust so much more slender And I
(07:12):
get it. There's almost like magical
conductor Symphony type of thingwhere you have with these nails,
it's just very feminine you get to look at them and make sure
your pants look them into yourself.
But I was realizing for myself, one, I'm lazy.
I don't need to take another 20-30 minutes do that just to
complete the ensemble. And then secondly, I got more
comfortable with not the requirement of those nails to
(07:36):
make me feel feminine in my bodyin that way.
We've talked about another podcast where Julie has spoken
about that thing where you can just look at your nails and you
just embody it through the hands.
You just see that femininity in front of you like a first person
shooter game or you can feel very feminine.
And there's that which I fully endorse.
And then there's a well, if you don't need it to feel feminine,
(07:58):
that's also a different part of growth in your spiritual right.
So they had to say that lends tothe three hours that it.
Yeah, sorry guys. We took a, we took a detour
about what can doleen do to be done in 90 minutes.
That's really what this was. And they don't need nails
podcast so. That's true.
The only person downed up today and actually really Rico almost
(08:19):
like royalty gown is Nicole the coolest.
I know her hair's quaffed. It's up.
She has like a Pearl comb thing in her hair.
It's pretty wild. I I wish I took a picture.
Actually, I did. Pajamas.
Actually, yes, we actually all are in our weekend clothes for
sure. So I actually want to hear more
(08:39):
about Keystone. We talked about if this don't
look good, we ain't getting off the elevator and we just will go
mail mode and just be there. And I love, thank you so much
for both of you talking about meeting me because that always
just enriches the reason why I do the thing I do because
sometimes it's very abstract about the people I touch with
what we do. What prompted you?
(09:01):
And I'm assuming it's just the same thing as prompting the
makeup artist? How did you get to the point of
saying, Oh yeah, let's go do this keystroke thing?
I'm going to book it. I think it's about, again,
originally at the top of this podcast, you asked Jolene about
why the why. And for me, it requires more
exploration, discover what worksfor you, what does it mean for
(09:24):
you, what extent you're going togo through.
And it helps to also do that in the mix of other people who are
also experiencing that. I think nowadays anytime
somebody's experiencing something new, you can just go
to the Internet, right? And you can type something in
and you just find all these things that are popping up.
I had no idea that conferences existed for crossdressers or
(09:47):
transgender or any of those things.
And so even it just in my search, it popped up.
It was one of the first things that popped up.
And I was like, I think that from my own understanding, I
have to explore it more and not only understand it from Jolene's
point of view, but see how it works in the context of the
world and how it works in the context of other people.
And that was one of the things that I found most beneficial for
(10:10):
me was hearing other people's stories as well.
And everybody was very open and didn't mind me.
And I asked a lot of people a lot of questions.
Probably way more probing than Ishould have bet, you know, like
do you talk or do you, you know,I never asked a question.
I was kidding. But but I am curious.
But, but it's like, where is this going for you?
You know, what is, does it mean for you?
(10:31):
And understanding there are so many different variations of
where people are in their journey or where they're even
going to go in their journey andwhere the endpoint is in their
journey. And that helped me to understand
it better that there isn't one mold that fits all.
And there are more people like me, even women who are trying to
figure out this out with their spouses who now want to be
(10:51):
presenting as a woman. And so I did it for myself as
much as I did it for Joey. That makes sense.
And so adding on to that, you took the Essos.
Significant other track definitely and meeting other
significant others and I definitely learned that you
know, there's some or didn't even show up as I speaking
(11:12):
around dinner tables. I was like, oh, I would never
get my wife to be able to be here.
And. Things like that.
But then those who did show up, there were people who struggled
and people who were a OK and people who even entered the
relationship with their significant other already
knowing that, and they were accepting of that from the very
beginning. They didn't have to discover or
learn where they were even lied to, you know, and having to deal
(11:32):
with the fact that they were lied to.
So many different variations of where people are that it was
helpful to have those conversations and understand
what that means for other peoplecoming from where I'm coming
from. And so I still will join the SO
meetings periodically because there's like once a month.
Oh, the zoom. Call, Zoom call, yeah.
And it's that's very helpful forme to hear how other people are
(11:54):
dealing with that. I will say also that in some
ways it was uncomfortable for meme because I was in some ways
put on a pedestal. And I'm going to say that word
because there were other cross dressing men who couldn't
believe that Jolene had a wife that was so accepting.
And there they had that involved.
(12:14):
And it really put me up there and I'm like, don't do that.
I'm not comfortable there because I don't know that I'm
always going to be OK. And I don't want to then present
or come across as, Oh, my gosh, she really isn't in there for
him, you know, or she does struggle or she does have
questions because of course I do.
Of course I do. I'm not always like, yay, me.
(12:35):
I have a husband that's cross dressing.
Of course I have thoughts and doubts and some parts of it that
I'm like, what, how did I sign up for this in my life or
whatever, or how did I get this in my life?
Of course I have those questions.
And I don't want to be presentedas this person that has it all
together because then I feel like it doesn't allow me then to
have my vulnerability. Yeah.
No, I love the way you said thatbecause that's so true.
(12:57):
Yes, you would be concerned. The Unicorn of spouses, we've
talked about that on air a few times.
And in fact, like you said, you're considered a Unicorn
because of the fact that you areso evolved, so accepting any of
the ways that you're accepting or showing up for Jolene and
Jolene is showing up for you andthat it the partnership is shown
(13:18):
like every partnership should show up in whatever however it
looks, right? Not just cross dressing or
gender diversity. For the challenge and yeah.
Right, whatever and all the stuff, the partnership, yeah,
the partnership looks like a partnership should look like in
that way. And unfortunately for many of us
who've not seen or had a partnerwho I don't say rose the
(13:39):
occasion, but was vulnerable andinvolved and supportive, and
everybody's on a similar page ingrowing forward together, it can
be considered something that's not possible.
I spent many years of my youth believing that nobody could love
me for having the side of Savannah within me.
And that's a terrible way to like live.
(14:00):
Life. I would imagine so.
And this goes back to what you said.
It's like you saw partners who were there but uncomfortable.
They're feeling betrayed and grieving what they thought they
had in a relationship, not showing up at all and leaving
their partners to feel less thanbecause now they're seeing other
partners who even showed up. It comes in all sizes and I'm
not admonishing anybody who didn't show up because they're
(14:22):
going through their own cycle ofgrief and feelings to know what
to do. The only thing I'm going to say
from a selfish point of view is,as I said, this is not just a
hobby for me. We talked, I think we talked
about this off era where if you're a football widow, you
lose your her husband for the weekend, either Sunday or
Saturday and Sunday because that's their hobby and go like,
(14:43):
oh, well, you know, he's gone again or he's gone fishing
again. And I'm just by myself.
But I want him to have, you know, him to be happy as long as
he's happy and he's out of my hair.
Whatever the narrative might look like.
The difference is cross dressingor the act of cross dressing is
not a hobby. It is part inherently of our
nature to be whether developed like Jolene in the last couple
(15:06):
of years since I was 5-6 years old trying to figure it all out.
The one thing I'd like people toas partners or friends or
families to just recognize like you said, Nicole, we choose to
be authentic. We don't choose to just decide
to be a cross dresser. So in our authenticity of
choosing ourselves and our authenticity is not a hobby.
(15:27):
It's part of who we are. It's part of our humanity.
So sometimes when we are or feelrejected, our perception of
rejection by the people who loveus, it will feel doubly or
triply hurtful because the people we love most who want to
be at our side in these moments,in these challenges.
And how can you really have thattrue intimacy if you're not
(15:49):
doing that? I mean, there's a piece missing
where you're not fully and you maybe feel rejected by your
significant other or you don't want to hear about it, you don't
want to know about it, you don'twant to see it.
And then you're really setting yourself up or a division.
I think that's going to show itself in other ways in your
relationship because if you're not accepting of the person and
(16:11):
who they are, and I'm not here to, I'm not trying to admonish
this is my Nicole's perspective,OK, of how I come to this.
Joe's accepted me for who I am and all and my flaws and I have
them. I'm definitely not perfect and
has loved me through that no matter what.
And that's what loving couples do for one another.
That's how I see a relationship.And if I try to pretend like a
(16:34):
piece of him doesn't exist, thenwe're never able to be our
truthful selves with one another.
Whether in action or thought or Jolene's allowed to be 100%
them, but only in secret or private or away from you.
But then there's a full expectation that because you're
not gender diverse that Jolene should accept all of you 100%
(16:55):
all the time out loud. It's also it's uneven.
The equity of the conversation is different.
It's like I accept you fully foreverything that's about you,
Nicole. But Jolene, I accept you fully,
but with these five caveats exactly.
And, and that is, and I'm not saying that's not a conversation
to have because everybody needs to find their balance.
But if it is not a conversation,it's just like I've decreed that
(17:19):
you need to do this for me because I don't know how to deal
with it. There's more to be done there.
That's therapy. That is conversation that is
coming to terms with your own truth.
You may be making different decisions.
Not everybody works out because sometimes that divide is too
great. But if you both come to the
table with authenticity and openness and compassion, then
(17:40):
you're going to get a lot closerto your loving dynamic in all
ways. And.
There's no doubt that any challenge that you come across
in a relationship, people may come to a place where they're
like, I do not see my life like this.
And, and it affects both people.What Jolene is doing 100%
affects me as a partnership. You can't pretend like it
(18:04):
doesn't, you know, But at the same time, that's who she is.
I mean, and it's up to me whether or not I'm OK with that.
And some people may choose not that they're not OK with that.
And people have to be able to take care of themselves too and
know what's right for them and choose what you can and cannot
manage in your life or whatever.Because then if you're not
(18:25):
allowing that person to be who they are because you're not able
to cope with it or able to, I don't even want to say cope with
it because I definitely, I'm nottrying to shame anybody that
says this is not the life I signed up for.
And we may need to go our separate ways because certainly
people will come to those decisions, you know, but that's
not my decision. Right.
Yeah. I want to point out something
(18:45):
that Jolene said earlier. And I did think it was given
enough breath, but I thought it was super important where as
you've shown lots of compassion to Jolene for the development of
Jolene in different ways. And conversely, as a typical
response to that, Jolene's now able to show you the more
appreciation in return because Jolene recognizes those things
(19:07):
that you are doing for their growth to loving them and that
they're able to more freely wantto give you back that attention,
that attention and that appreciation.
Very true. And Lola and Loki are being
their authentic self, too. They're authentic.
Doggy like. How dare you keep me quiet?
(19:28):
Don't you quiet me. I have a voice.
Damn it. They were actually very good,
other than when the package cameto the door, we had to take a
pause. But yeah.
So in clothing closing, in closing.
And. Because we're going to get out
of these clothes and go into pool clothes soon and I don't
want to short change that adventure.
(19:48):
So we'll start with you. Poor Jolene wonders why she was
even here. Although we love your
authenticity and your tears and we love that.
But what would you have to say in terms of your journey?
With Nicole as your significant one, what advice would you give?
I feel like, again, we're quite different in so many ways
(20:10):
because everything is working right now and I don't see why it
wouldn't work. Our respect for each other's
emotions in our relationship of 33 years with our children and
all our loved ones involved. I hurt for the couples that
don't have the ability to be open and maybe something in a
(20:34):
sense wasn't right for them fromthe get go.
I got married for convenience, whatever it could have been
their attraction. There has to be a true love for
a person to be in my position tobe able to say I would like to
do this. Do I have your permission?
I asked for her permission. I didn't tell her I'm going to
do this. I didn't force it on her.
(20:55):
And that is, I think gigantic insaving a relationship or
preventing a relationship from going South.
And again, just very blessed to be in that position to have a
person, a partner in life that Ican do that with.
It's definitely been an eye opener for me because I see
things through so many differentlenses now that I didn't just as
(21:19):
the guy, you know, male mode. And I'm grateful for that
opportunity to grow and understand the LGBTQ community
to a level I've never understoodit.
I really just went into this saying, hey, I just want to
dress like a girl and really wasn't even thinking about the
community outside. But now we've been to San Diego,
(21:40):
we've been to San Francisco, we've been partying in Atlanta,
we've been submersed in the community at Keystone and ACC
Atlanta Conference, and it's such a wonderful, beautiful
group of people. I'm very distraught at the
situation in the world right nowwith how this community is
viewed upon because I only see the most loving, genuine people
(22:03):
and coming from the other side just as that guy that I didn't
shun anybody in the community, but I didn't give it much
thought. I was just in my own guy world,
you know, I've always respected everybody just as another human
being, but never was submersed in it as I am now.
And it's a beautiful place and I've met more beautiful, genuine
(22:26):
people that I know are just truehuman beings.
They're not fake more in the last two years than I have my
entire life, People that I trulycare about you being one of them
and and our extended Keystone family and all that.
So it has made me a better person.
And I thank my beautiful wife for letting me have this journey
(22:51):
and the journey we're taking together.
And I just, I hope and pray for more couples out there that they
can have a similar experience. That's all I can hope for.
Well said before we get to you Nicole, because I'm going to ask
you a question about this beautiful woman here, your
spouse in the comments she's made.
(23:11):
I totally agree. Once it goes past just your
needs and you start hearing the stories, you start meeting other
people that have similar journeys and then realizing you
find more enrichment in journeysthat are not like yours, but are
even more diverse than what you even understood to be, which
gives you a huge appreciation. With that said, I have another
(23:33):
question, which is Jolene said she got your permission.
And so I want to tackle this in a very because we talked about
this yesterday, because I want your take on this uncle you
asked for permission. I want to think about it in my
brain is that you became collaborators and not like, Hey,
is it OK if I do this? It may have come out and been
spoken that way as an ask. Well, it seems to me that was
(23:56):
more collaborative because I know that, Nicole, you took a
lot of onus to pursue things to,to make it happen to, to go
through. I'm going to book this.
I'm we're going to Keystone, whether he said it was someone
self-serving or not, absolutely you've got your own gains out of
it. So in closing, but also to
answer the question, do you feelit was more of Jolene asking for
(24:16):
your permission to do it or morefor asking you to be a partner
in this journey? Oh absolutely the latter of what
you just said. It's my way of handling change
to take control. Take charge, Marge.
That's just who I am as a person.
I feel less anxiety, less stress, even more understanding
(24:40):
if I have some ownership of it as well.
I don't know that I could have approached it any other way just
because of the kind of person I.AM.
That I would in some way, shape or form have to have some sort
of control over this situation in order to feel like it wasn't
something that was happening to me.
But that's something that I could be a partner, right?
(25:03):
So that mode of myself, I don't even, I don't even have to think
about it anymore because it's just like I said, it's who I am.
I could sit there and be like, why is this happening to me?
Or the only way to have less stressless anxiety in order to
be a partner in it, I have to have a little bit of control.
And so I. Like ownership though, because
feels like every part of it is within my purview.
(25:24):
Right. And I don't, honestly, I don't
have control over this situation, but I have to feel
like I don't have a loss of control.
Right. Yeah.
You know, and no say in it. And I think that Jolene, knowing
who I am, you know, came to it from a place of asking for
permission only because. Or assistance.
Or assistance, but it was it waslike can are you OK with me
(25:45):
doing this? I mean, literally did say are
you OK with me doing this? Because she didn't want to be it
to be a secret for one that was very important to her is it
didn't want to be. She didn't want to be hiding
things from me, which I ultimately appreciated.
I saw the vulnerability in that,how that may have been very hard
for her to do and appreciated that as well.
(26:09):
That that must take a lot and trust in me that you could come
to me. And so I saw that in the
question as well. Therefore, I think it's on me as
a partner and spouse to not ruinthat moment, if you will.
It's kind of like you're about like how you should handle your
kids when they come to you with something that they're
(26:30):
struggling with. The more you overreact about it
or you say you can't do that andthe less that they're going to
come to you and be open or be vulnerable.
You know, you have to sit in themoment and not overreact or not
have that gut reaction because then you're going to ruin that
trust. And then that I think that
applies in anything. It applies in my business world,
(26:51):
my work that I do that you always have when people bring
something to you, but especiallyapplies in your relationship
with your spouse. You know, if somebody comes to
you without vulnerability or something that's like, I've been
thinking about this, are you OK with it?
My mind is like all of a sudden this tornado like things.
But I knew my initial reaction had to be a non reaction if you
(27:12):
will, because otherwise that would close off any doors for a
further conversation. About it, the park.
I mean, you're a therapist, right?
You're a professional. Therapist.
Nurse, I mean. You're a kid.
You're in the medical field and this is methyl.
Yeah, I remember. And sometimes I do feel like
that, that even with my employees as they come into my
(27:32):
office or things like that, sometimes I feel like I'm a
therapist because it's like you're always there dealing with
people. And when you deal with people,
whether it's patients or your employees or things of that
nature, you're always, you have to give people a space to be
able to speak. And that is perfection because
unfortunately we find that a lotof people don't have one either
the ability to voice the need because they don't have the
(27:55):
language or they just can't vocalize what that thing is.
And then like you say, from a partner standpoint of being able
to sit in the moment without whatever all the world view.
Well, your culture, your religion, your politics, all
that things are going to make you want to look utter
something. They may be unkind or maybe
(28:17):
shutting down the conversation. As long as you can sit in that
space and have a conversation like that doesn't mean you're
devoid of agency. That doesn't mean you don't have
a say in your own feelings. So that that all being true,
it's just like I said, not overreacting or not judging.
Being vulnerable is a very raw open state.
(28:38):
So like you said, if Jolene comes to you in a very raw open
state and vulnerability and an ask of like I said, all the
nuance in the in between the lines of what was being asked
and then reacting like, hell no,we're just like completely not
open to it. That's not going to sit well for
Jolene, which will just breed other problems of secrecy and
and going outside the home like Oh yeah, I'm with so and so
(29:00):
we're at a cabin efficient and all they're doing is bringing
all their pretty close address up and is harmless as they may
be, it's still this measure of trust that is lost because the
safe space inside the relationship was not breached,
but it's broken. So all right.
Well with that, this has been amazing as you can see audience.
We could talk for hours and I really have and we will
(29:24):
additionally and maybe we'll just mic ourselves up in the
pool with waterproof mics. And you know, baby, well, that
was one of the stipulations thatthey would only come on air if
sober, they want to have controltheir faculties and maybe not
say certain things they don't want to be said.
So that was unfortunately, I miss out on that fun.
But that being said, I have no idea how long we've been talking
(29:47):
and I know we could just continue to go and I'll probably
just have you back on another time for Kim or for yourselves.
Well, whoever, thank you so muchfor being here.
Thank you for letting me stay inyour home for the weekend with
my pooches. It's been amazing so far, so
fun, and they are fantastic cooks, everybody.
Just FYI, I haven't treated any good.
They've been making sure I've been taken care of and it's been
(30:10):
amazing. Just remember, almost every
Wednesday there's a new episode and they've taken a break
because I'm hanging out with my peeps and their secret location
and Androndix. Maybe I don't edit an episode
and maybe it doesn't come out onWednesday, but like Nicole has
told me, she's a more recent listener and she's got a huge
backlog catalog the show to listen to, so I don't want to
(30:33):
keep bringing new stuff into theworld when she's still trying to
get the old stuff. There's so much stuff to catch
up on. And she only can listen in the
car on the way to work. So, you know, we're not sitting
here all day just binging on Foxin the Phoenix.
But but they will get to binge on Savannah all day.
So absolutely no, no, no, no. Heather.
So with that, thank you. Everybody can think this lovely
(30:55):
couple. So with that I will say until
next time. Goodbye.
Bye bye route. You can find me on Facebook at
Savannah Hawk or at living with Cross dressing and on Instagram
at Savannah hawk. Remember that's.
HAUK. And to learn more, go to my
(31:15):
website livingwithcrossdressing.com.
And you can find me on Instagramand Facebook at Fox and Hangar
or at Julie MTF Style, as well as on our website at
foxandhangar.com. Julie, it's your moment.
The Fox and the Phoenix podcast uses Spotify for creators.
(31:38):
Copyright 2025. Yes, nailed it.
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