September 10, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode, Julie is ravenous to talk to Savannah about the term and meaning of being a trans egg. Also called being a “baby trans”, cracking open your egg is akin to finally recognizing and accepting your gender expansiveness in whatever way you were meant to show up in the world. The term can be both positive and negative, most notably when others start telling you that you are going to crack soon and what that means for you (without knowing your full story). The shell we crack from can be an enamel of protection, denial, safety, and suppression. But, it’s only when we crack the egg open can we begin to see ourselves in our own unique and true light.
-----
SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
------
JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, Understanding
the feminine cross wrestling experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross wrestler,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker and author of the Living
with Cross Wrestling book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hey, Julie. Hi, Savannah.
I. Have missed you so much.
I've been gone for so long. I know I have and I think the
lightness of my hair, meaning the red washing out and the
(00:51):
highlights being popping and thedepression setting in.
Where are you, red? I think that represents the
amount of time that I have missed you and the amount of
time that we haven't talked. I know I'm talking off air.
I did 3 episodes, A2 partner anda little secret project that I
did just because. And that was all because you
(01:12):
were vacationing, which you deserved.
You had Remy off to summer camp and in her return, and I know
you got a little bit sick upon your return.
So yeah, life be lifing. Right.
And I had my stuff that just passed with the conference in
Atlanta that we can speak about next week.
(01:34):
Just a lot of things going on inlife, a lot of things going on
in our lives specifically. But yeah, it's good to get back
with you. It's good to see you.
I think you look beautiful and your hair looks amazing in spite
of your own personal opinion of it.
Thank you. I just feel kind of washed out
and tired looking and don't comment to that because I see
(01:55):
you looking at me looking at me looking at you.
OK, so I, yeah, I've been back from a journey.
I went back to New England for two weeks.
I went to see a lot of friends. I saw my brother, I went on his
sailboat. And I I laughed, I cried, I ate.
I saw my nephew, I saw my best friend from college.
(02:16):
It was a lot of a lot of visits with many different types of
people. And thankfully, yeah, I mean, I
didn't tell certain people that I was coming.
So hopefully they're not listening right now and if they
are, sorry I can't see everyone,no.
You can't. And it is that weird.
(02:37):
It's funny to say that because I've had that same thought of,
well, I just won't tell them I'mcoming because if I won, if I
can't squeeze them in, make thatside trip or feel an obligation
because now I've said I'm comingto the area and they're going to
start saying, oh, oh, we should get together.
You know there's there. Is so only so much one person
can do in Even so many days? I don't think anybody would be
(03:01):
upset about it that they missed you.
They'd be upset they missed you,but I think they would
understand. I think that just the rule of
not posting on social media is just like a pretty kind thing to
do when you're not planning on telling everyone you love that
you're going to a certain place just to spare those feelings.
All in all, it was a great time.And next year, they'll be people
(03:23):
who I saw that I won't be telling, you know what I mean,
to make way for, you know, some people.
Yeah, that makes sense. It's all about pop you but.
You are popular, so of course you're in high demand.
Yes. And all of us missed you while
you're awake. Yes, and I missed this
(03:44):
community. I miss being back at this desk,
scaring, staring, a basket of biscuits, a basket of mixed
biscuits and a biscuit mixer. I did not warm up my vocals
before this podcast, but I have missed you and I forget the
original point before I made that little slur.
(04:07):
But since I've been back, I've been reconnecting with my
clients and I've been slowly andsteadily getting back to all the
things. And as I've transitioned from
being in this vacation mode to being back in work mode, there's
been a few times that I've heardthis particular term having to
(04:31):
do with eggs. No, don't get hungry.
The term was presented to me by a client that said my egg
cracked, and that term is something that I have also heard
about within the trans community.
In terms of the moment a person realizes they are transgender,
(04:54):
it also can take on many different meanings before that
crack, living in denial or confusion and all the different
ways that this egg represents a shift in their journey.
So I'd love to talk about it today.
I'd love to put a little bit of focus on the transgender
experience as well as how it pertains to the cross dressing
(05:17):
experience. If you are listening and this is
a term that you identify with orthis is a term that you have
heard through the Grapevine but haven't really understood what
it means, this is the episode for you.
So let's crack it open. Get it?
Get it. Yolks on you yolks.
(05:40):
This is where your punny sense of humor goes off, which I do
not have much of my old knocker.Yeah, whatever, Humpty Dumpty.
OK, so. So let let us start.
Let us start on this journey. And so far, yes, I have heard
the term like either baby trans or eggs little trans egg
(06:01):
referred in several different ways and applications.
When you're talking about eggs, yes I did get hungry because I
do love bacon and eggs. 2 It reminded me of when I was in
high school. I don't know if you had this
because you probably were super cool, but we had the thing where
they would go up on the roof of the school and have to build a
contraption and put an egg in the middle to see if they
(06:22):
dropped off the building, if they would crack or not.
And then it also remind me of that you carry an egg around and
at the end of the week you wouldhope that I'm assuming they
marked, the teacher marked it Soyou could just like have break
an egg and then just bring in the replacement later on.
You seem to be a very popular metaphor for different things,
either for care or for things cracking and breaking.
(06:45):
Yes, I it's funny that egg is the center of a lot of things,
which seems odd, but also seems very appropriate.
And I heard this term, oof. I'm still in New York, so I'm
talking maybe, I don't know, maybe close to 10 years ago, if
not a little bit more 10 to 12 years ago.
So I will start off with my story that I have about it,
(07:09):
which is one of the couples thatare in my first book, Living
Cross Dressing Defining into Normal, available now.
Amazon.com. One of the stories when we were
interviewing a couple, me and Judy, they're talking about how
they had gone to Fantasia Affairbecause again, for them, this
(07:30):
discovery had just come to being, come to be for them as a
couple and the husband as an individual and his transness and
as a cross dresser. And so they went to Fantasia
fair to suss out what was happening, get a little bit of
knowledge dropped on them through the week or weekend.
And again, I am paraphrasing, I don't remember the exact story
(07:50):
in the exact way, but there was a lot of breakout sessions.
Conversations were had. And there was possibly one of
the dinners or possibly some sort of breakout session where
the husband was regaling possibly their story.
And then on the way out, as people were filing out of the
room or the conference or the breakout or the luncheon or
(08:13):
whatever it might have been, another person said, oh, you're
just an egg. You're going to definitely
transition one day. So this was somebody within the
community with their own journeythat they understand for
themselves, associating the uncracked eggness of the friend
of mine. Like putting it on there, like
(08:34):
here's your egg, I'm putting it in your hands on, you know
that's going to crack and you'regoing to have this whole trans
rotation that happened to you. Now, I will say that at the time
it was very shocking to both thehusband and wife because it was
opening up or cracking open, if you will, something that was an
(08:54):
unknown unknown. What that means that there's
known known unknowns, unknown knowns and unknown unknown.
So those are like. All right, first of all, I truly
love you. Second of all, I blacked out at
the first. OK, so let's But I loved it.
(09:16):
I. Love it.
The point is, is that I think one of the fallacies of the egg
theory or usage of little trans egg is that it's making a lot of
assumptions for things we can't know for another person.
Even if that person themselves is a little baby trans egg and
hasn't cracked yet and is just discovering things through
(09:39):
exploration and cross dressing and see where that leads.
And hopefully their mind is openenough to the possibilities to
hear the voice inside of them that may lead to a cracking and
opening up of that shell. So I, I understand it.
I think it's very appropriate for many of us who are
discovering. It seems like my egg has been
cracking open a little at a timefor 40 years.
(10:01):
That's just about having knowledge and understanding of
making it a known thing of how it applies to.
So I think that's amazing and wecan definitely get into that.
And then conversely, I think sometimes it's misused,
especially when somebody's trying to apply it based on
their own experience or their own understanding.
And then giving it to you is like, hey, this is going to be
(10:24):
you. You will have your little beak
get through that shell and all of a sudden it'll become X.
Yeah, that you don't. Know right?
Well, first of all, I think it'sdangerous when anyone approaches
anyone and outs them or gives their own projection of what
they see another person to be, right?
(10:44):
And often the projection, well, it's a projection.
So they're keying in or queuing in or getting a psychic whiff of
something that very much remindsthem of some place that they
were in. And they see us a similar moment
of someone who's not quite there, or they see some sort of
mirroring or reflection of theirpast.
(11:05):
And I think that though intuition and wisdom tends to be
spot on at times, and I trust it, I think that it is dangerous
to diagnose someone with something that A there may not
be ready to hear B it may force them to go even deeper in the
(11:26):
closet and close that egg and put it back.
Just no and no and no. And also there's a third part of
it is this person does not have your thumbprint.
It does not have your experience.
So although you may feel a gut sense that this person needs to
be told that they're going to crack any day now or get ready
(11:47):
or oh, you're bisexual, you're gay, please.
Been there, done that, You know,the whole 90s.
I'm bisexual for a guy. When really they're gay.
OK, fine. But it's not the person's job to
be this into the future seeker about one's future because
you're not that person and you don't know.
And we have so many different roads which we could take.
(12:10):
And frankly, that's really, it'sa way of outing a person.
And that's a no, no in our community.
That's not your job, and you maybe outing someone who isn't part
of your story who isn't. Oh, you're wrong.
Yeah. And when you said that, it
remind me of the story you're telling me, reminds me of when
somebody comes out as gay or lesbian or whatever, right?
(12:32):
And they say, mom, I just something I have to tell you, I
think I'm gay. And the mom goes, oh, yeah,
we've known. It's one thing.
It's one thing for people to be like, I see the signs, I see the
hallmarks, right? But it's another thing to say,
son, you're gay. You need to like come to terms
with it with before the egg has cracked, right?
So yeah, that projection or eventhe obviously the intuition, the
(12:56):
wisdom of everything I'm seeing makes me believe for you that
this is true. And it may be.
I'm not saying it's not, But to actually throw that in front of
them when they're not ready to see it.
Already hear it? Already hear it That's that
wouldn't be dangerous. Absolutely.
I agree. Right, let's.
Talk about let's talk about the egg.
(13:17):
Yeah. So if you look at the egg and
the shell being what, an awareness or repression or the
shell of denial or something that someone is really trying to
keep from breaking open, right. If you think about that, what
you talked about the top of the episode where the teacher gives
(13:37):
a pair of people or individuals an egg to carry around.
And the idea is that the metaphor is that the egg is like
a baby and you can't be rough with the baby and being calm and
gentle and all this. I think that keeping yourself
together and keeping that shell complete and uncracked when you
are exhibiting signs, whether itbe through your body language,
(14:01):
maybe it's a little more feminine, whether it's through
another type of body language where you're born a biological
female, but your body language is very masculine and the kinds
of expression you are drawn to, the different elements are more
masculine Or butcher hard and you're a tomboy, but you're
(14:21):
trying to keep these parts of yourself together.
You're trying to keep this kind of egg intact.
And whether we see the egg as a representation of this denial,
repression, or unawareness, you're still working really hard
to keep that precious egg from cracking open.
Your parents, who may be in denial, are working very hard to
(14:43):
keep this egg whole from cracking and keeping it pure, if
you will, and taking this egg tochurch every Sunday.
And you know what I mean, Not letting this egg get into that
damn Devil's Rock'n'roll, you know.
But you know, when the egg cracks eventually, as I don't
(15:05):
want to say most or many or let's just go with many, that
feels good for my where this sentence is going for many.
There's only so long that you can keep this egg whole and pure
before there is a cracking. Not a complete cracking, but
maybe a crack at the top and then another crack.
And as you go through this cracking period, for me, that
(15:29):
could represent the realization or the acceptance or the
unfurling of 1's gender identity, sexual orientation,
creative followings, athletic abilities, whatever it is that
is in opposition with something you're trying really hard to
keep holding together. When that cracking comes out and
(15:52):
says, oh, I don't want to be a doctor, as my parents are
telling me. I've gone to own my own art
studio. I want to create things with my
hand using art. That's a bit of a crack.
Or, oh, I've never really felt whole in my masculinity.
In my femininity. One of my cracks, or one of the
(16:14):
shells falling down represents adifferent part of myself that
has been revealed to me. Whether it be taking my sister's
nightgown and lying in my room or looking at myself in this
nightgown. That crack led to about three
other cracks. Because this feels good and this
feels nice and I want to add a few more pieces to it.
(16:35):
What if I tried on a pair of hershoes?
This feels good and true. And once you have that crack,
it's really hard to, as much as our family or our closest
friends or a significant other wants to go find that little
piece of shell and glue it back together and hold it and say,
(16:56):
no, you are whole. You are true.
This is how you came into the earth as this whole true thing.
And no, I'm going to hold this piece of shell, no matter how
much they're trying to hold it on to you to make it seem like
this crack never happened or this crack.
We can't let anyone know about this crack.
That's impossible because it already broke off.
(17:16):
And what it's going to result inis a bigger crack and a bigger
shed of light. So yeah, I know I said a lot,
and I can see your eyes twinkling and burning to say
more. And I'd love to shut the fuck up
and let you speak, because I know you have lots to say.
Well, a couple things. Metaphorically, I'm going to
(17:37):
keep going with his AG motif as long as we can.
There are times when that part of shell cracks open or falls
off to your point that maybe somebody throws some duct tape
on it because they had an inkling of something that did
not make them feel good, like borrowing their scissors like
out and might have felt amazing in the moment.
(17:57):
And then the shame spiral comes in and all they want to do is
put that piece of shell back on the egg and clamp it down as
tight as possible and not go forward.
So that's where people try to keep the egg together with twine
and tape and glue and gum, just to keep it all in one semblance
of an egg shape, which again, atthis point is never going to be
(18:18):
the same because you've already experienced that thing.
That's now it is part of your mind, is now part of the cells
in your body because you've seenit for yourself, good or bad, or
how do you perceive it? You still felt it and you still
experienced it. That egg is never going to look
like that pristine white egg that it was.
So that being said, I also have another metaphor about eggs.
(18:41):
And this is because I watch a lot of reels on Instagram and
one of the reels somehow became the hatching of baby snakes.
And this guy was showing it was called a clutch.
I think some sort of Python was having babies and it was curled
up around his egg, a little clutch of eggs.
What the guy would do is he would pick up the egg and he
(19:03):
would shine a light through it to see how thin the walls were,
to see if it was ready to be broken open.
He found a couple that would never hatch.
They were very dark. Obviously, the baby snake did
not develop at all, but what he had done, there was one that was
damaged and he actually did a whole bunch of work to get it to
a point so that it could hatch naturally.
(19:24):
So the point I'm making in this is that the one that needed the
support without physically breaking open the egg was what
the parent, or the the guardian in his case of the snake's owner
was doing his best to support the eggs and give it the best
chance for survival. So I thought that was amazing.
(19:46):
I'm like, wow, you can actually put a resin on the egg because
the wall was too thin. So he thickened it up, and it
gave the egg time to mature naturally, so that the egg
himself, the stick itself, coulduse this little sharp, Peaky
thing on his nose to get throughit.
And and come into its own naturally or in its own time.
(20:06):
So I thought it was fascinating.I'm a goof and a geek that way.
I think it's appropriate in thatwe should be supporting the
growth in the maturity of the egg until such time is that the
person inside can actually crackthrough on their own the most
positive way possible. And I know that's not the truth
for everybody. I know that people need probably
(20:28):
even more of a push out the nestkind of thing.
But in terms of making sure thatthe best possible conditions are
there, it's all about love and support and making sure that we
may be aware of what the egg is supposed to be, quote UN quote.
But it's about letting that person come to it, to
themselves, knowing that they are surrounded by love and
support and understanding. Yeah, And I think we we
(20:53):
sometimes as I'm listening to ustalk about it, it's easy to say
that the egg is just deciding tochip away when they're ready.
But we also have to understand there are environmental things
that come into play that makes the egg naturally crack.
(21:14):
For example, our podcast, I knowthat for many people, based on
lots of feedback we've gotten, thank our podcast for being the
reason that they are able to find their true identity.
Or I never really knew what it was that I was experiencing, but
thanks to this episode, I can fully come into my own around
(21:36):
this or I had my wife listen to your podcast.
Whatever it is, when we get feedback, I definitely can
relate it to this whole idea of this removing moving of pieces
of shell and coming into a spacewith your identity and with the
idea of acceptance that is really beautiful and doesn't
(21:59):
really come with much forcefulness.
All right, you're going to crackor I'm just going to remove this
because I'm at a pride event. It just blows off.
It's just one of those things that I picture as you can try
really hard to keep your egg whole.
You can purge your closet and try your hardest, use your
toughest Gorilla Glue to get that shell back on.
(22:21):
But in my experience of doing this for just over a decade,
they always come back. The shell always blows off.
The desire, the need to dress again or to experience the
femininity, it's within you, right?
So it's the idea that we crack open and then suddenly we're
free and we fully accept. Well, that's not how I see this
(22:44):
metaphor, you know, because it'svery vulnerable When an egg
cracks, whether it be a little crack or a whole crack, then we
have to see ourselves for who wetruly are.
Then we have to experience ourselves as we as we truly are,
within the context of what our job, our family, our role, our
(23:06):
projection of ourselves, our inner child.
There's so many different layersthat come from the exposing of
this crack to ourselves, never mind to our families, but to
ourselves. Yeah, the egg is there to
protect you until, and we like to say at such time, it's ready
to be fit enough to crack of itself so that we can breathe
(23:30):
and grow and expand. And that's not always the case.
And you said there's a lot of environmental reasons why you
don't want an egg to crack from around you because you may be
living in a very small minded community, a very religious
community, growing up in a household that's very anti
trans. There's so many obstacles that
(23:52):
you would just wish that the enamel, that egg would stay the
shape of an egg forever, but yetit can only protect you for so
long. And once you are ready to make
that move, to breathe more freely from your authenticity
and use some of your agency to do it, that really does evolve,
leaving that shell behind for good.
(24:12):
Or I'll. And by by that I mean just
because you came out of your shell and you've acknowledged
something for yourself does not mean the road is all of a sudden
easier. Right.
So it's almost like I wish I hadthis one egg, but I wish there
was a bigger egg. Kind of like an inverted Russian
doll. I'm OK to get this far out of my
shell. As long as there's another
protective shell around me, thenit'll be OK.
(24:35):
But it's not. Once you've felt it, seen it,
explored it, yeah, you can deny it.
You can put it back in its shellas much as you want.
And like you said, you purged, you got rid of it.
It's like, I'm not going to think about this anymore.
Whether it takes a year or ten years or 20 years or however
long, you're going to find yourself back there.
(24:56):
You're going to loop back aroundto that thought again.
And whether you decide to pursueit or not is purely your choice.
But it seems like once you've had experience and you've leaned
into it for even a moment, it tends to not be something you so
casually shake off. Yeah.
And when I think about, I think from the start of this episode,
(25:17):
it's very clear that you and I have a loyalty and a a lens that
is clearly a cross dressing lensor dual gender lens.
Or I'm very I'm able to access different examples in my work
through someone who has the privilege of being able to show
up in their male self. And then they have this other
(25:40):
side of themselves that is beautiful, whole and true.
And then they have time to dressor they don't have time to dress
or this and that. If we were to look at this as
not so much as the umbrella, butas transitioning transgender
individuals verse cross dressingindividuals, and we were to look
at this as them being separate, not an umbrella.
(26:03):
And we were able to say, huh, well, I can see and I can
understand how it applies to transgender individuals.
But what about crossdressers, right?
Maybe we have a couple listenersthat are like, well, I'm just a
crossdresser, so I don't know ifI should continue to tune in
because I don't know if this applies to me.
I think if you're that person, Isay, hang on, don't go anywhere.
(26:27):
I'd say that's the egg cracking metaphor.
Absolutely applies to crossdressers and individuals
that identify as crossdressers, individuals that use that term
as an action. I think it applies in ways that
are different from someone who identifies as trans and goes
(26:47):
through that transition to become that other side of the
binary. So I think that a crack may look
like it may start with shame, but then it may move into
something that is more self acceptance.
The realization that it is not aphase, that it is something that
(27:10):
is true and real for someone, isan example of a crack of
something that has shifted within that as moving from
denial of this just being a phase to something that is more
wholesome, more true, more in the concept of self love.
That also pertains to seeing it as sexual only, right?
(27:35):
It's only sexual. It's only a kink.
Well then what happens when it normalizes?
And what happens when the kink runs out of steam and suddenly
you're wearing the same stuff that used to get you horny and
you just feel held? That to me is a crack.
Finally able to experience calm and joy and confidence and kind
(27:59):
of this euphoric feeling throughdressing and knowing that that's
not a bad thing, but that's a really good thing.
A really good thing that can be integrated and implemented in
all areas of your life, all parts of yourself.
That it's not so much a dark side, but it's a just a part of
yourself within all the other parts of yourself that makes you
(28:23):
human. Did you say human?
Human. It's so funny that the in the
the entirety of our podcast, oneof the major things that you and
I have spoken on air and off is that even though we are a niche
genre of podcasting and we target a very specific audience,
(28:46):
everything we typically talk about has such universal
applique, just like you said. And breaking the egg metaphor in
the cracking open of the egg metaphor is so addictive to the
human experience, not to the cross dressing experience, not
just the transitioning experience.
It is the human condition to, like you said, come to a place
(29:06):
of joy, self acceptance, findingout what the truth is for you.
You said it's not a phase or it's not just a kink.
Those are things that were put into our head early on as we're
already in the world that as we all of a sudden come to it,
that's like, Oh no, I enjoyed wearing my sister's panties and
it got me off and I must have a kink or this is taboo or this is
(29:30):
a fetish or this is an X, it's AY and Z because that's how
society has already deemed it. It's already told us that's what
it is. So we hold on as tight as
possible and try to pull those pieces of shell back in as
quickly as possible. Sometimes because of the shame
and something the the way we were told to believe into
something are told to believe how something is if it presents
(29:51):
in a certain way. But yet once you crack it open
and realize that what was the shell?
The shell was just social norms.The shell was just societal
constraints. The shell was the thing keeping
us back from being our full-fledged self.
So now you're thinking about theegg, and now you're thinking
about a little baby bird bursting out of it.
(30:14):
And they just stretched their wings and they still don't know
how to fly, but they're now in the nest wanting to be fed.
And in this case, I'm going to say being fed is being
supported, being loved. We are crying out and screaming
out for that worm, that little regurgitated worm that's going
to help us grow and prosper and be the best version of ourself.
(30:34):
And again, still have to be kicked out of the nest a little
bit sometimes. And that's when it comes into
support. When it comes into other people
who are similar to us and have similar stories and are
successfully living the life they are living.
Doesn't mean you're going to endup living that exact life, but
it will give you confidence to live your life.
So absolutely. The shell is, well, protective.
(30:55):
It's also constraining the cracks.
We want to sometimes make believe they never happened.
But yet when we lean into it andthe cracks are now open and we
accept the best nature of ourselves as a result of that,
it's everything. Like I said, one of the
takeaways I have is that self love or the new understanding of
(31:18):
self or that clarity that we have that seems most true or
even more true to us than previously.
That's how I've been reflecting.I've been spending years and
years and years going like, oh, this is just a thing I do is
kind of fetch a stick. Oh, I'm a transvestite.
No, no, no, I'm a crossdresser. Oh, look, now dual genders,
like, oh, wait, I'm under the trans umbrel.
(31:39):
It's a constant, constant evolution that all humans are
taking from being a little egg to burst out of the egg, to
learning to fly, learning to spread your wings, learning to
learn new things and how to be, and just becoming more and more
and more yourself as you grow. Yeah, that kind of takes the egg
(32:00):
metaphor to its absolute completion, that once you leave
all the broken shells behind, you're going to have to find
your way and be the best versionof you you can find.
Yeah. And I, I like that when we
started this episode, you, I don't know the exact phrase you
used, but you had mentioned thatyou had have been cracking for
the past, what, 20 years? I don't know, Fourty, 4 fingers
(32:23):
and one opus. Yeah, for 40 years.
And I like that idea that we're just continuing to crack as we
continue to better understand ourselves.
And I think that if the, if we, you look at it as the egg has
(32:43):
been completely cracked open andthere is either a yoke or a bird
and there's no turning back. Well, I think that even as a
bird, there are moments of awakening and there has to be
and moments of learning. And so for me to be able to view
myself as constantly that egg that is experiencing a series
(33:05):
and will always experience a series of cracks feel good to me
because it feels like there's just a constant.
There's just a constant. What just came to my mind that
made me giggle like a schoolgirlwas a constant shelling and
unshelling, a constant shelling and re shelling, if you will,
(33:25):
which I don't know if that makessense at all.
Basically the idea were sleepwalking and then we have
these moments of forgetting or and then these moments of
awareness, which may be very Buddhist.
I'm not sure you know that it's it can be seen as like a light
bulb moment or it can be seen asa gradual slow awakening.
(33:47):
Whatever it is, I believe that it's a constant throughout our
lives till we die. I mean, that's how I'd like to
look at it. I never want to know everything
about myself. I want to continuously keep on
relearning and learning old concepts.
And I don't know micro shell by micro shell.
(34:07):
Well, it makes sense that even if you do know a thing doesn't
make it absolutely your truth forever.
Just like nobody can tell you what your journey looks like
just because they may have experienced one event similar,
or a couple years similar, or a lifetime that seems very
similar. Just because somebody else's
story is akin to yours does not make it your story.
(34:30):
Now you can learn and grow from stories outside of you and say,
oh, that makes sense, that resonates, but don't let anybody
tell you what your story is. That's definitely I want to keep
hammering at. Home I.
Feel that sometimes the elders in the community, let's say, not
to say they're old, but they've had no more.
They've had more experience in the community.
(34:51):
Sometimes they are very wrapped up in the experiences they've
had. And yes, they don't want you to
suffer. They don't want you to have to
figure things out and go throughthe things that they went
through, all the trials and tribulations.
Absolutely. I understand that sometimes
though when they make a proclamation for you on your
behalf, whether it's true or not, it can be very unnerving
(35:12):
and unsettling to the person that is the object of that
conversation. Yeah.
And in those ways, I would rather just somebody tell me a
story that I can relate to or not relate to either now or in
the future. And then just let me come to it,
when I'm able to come to it and just have a support systems as
opposed to somebody saying you are this now, do it now, be that
(35:34):
way. All right.
I don't feel it, but OK, it's that kind of dichotomy that got.
We have to make sure that our listeners understand that even
with the best intention, sometimes somebody telling you
what you are, who you are, is not really appropriate.
Yeah, yeah, as you're saying allthis, there's a part of me that
feels like a naughty little schoolgirl.
(35:55):
Like, I won't, I didn't, I'm notgoing to do that anymore is
right. Because there is a part of my
work, the kind of coaching, consulting part of it that is
very tuned in to someone's storyand is very tuned in to some of
the needs that they can't alwayssee for themselves in terms of
(36:17):
the next step or meet. Translating into something that
feels really true based on what someone is saying or feeling and
coming up with a concept. And it's a recommendation.
So it's complicated and it's. OK.
But the difference is people arecoming to you.
So for you to make that assessment is a collaboration
versus an unsolicited proclamation.
(36:41):
The difference is somebody just awed the blue saying you're this
and not really knowing your story beyond A1 little pinpoint
of data versus you having sessions with people and
learning about them and asking them questions.
And then coming up with A and not even proclaiming it but
saying you may find benefit in X.
Whether they choose it or not, you're still leaving it in their
(37:03):
hands versus you will be a transgender.
I saw you, Rebecca. That is your name.
I'm getting strong vibes. Tell me now, Miss Jules, I will
tell you your. Well, you miss Cleo.
What's going? On up in here exactly.
Oh my goodness. OK.
But anyways, yes, I agree that no one should tell you, oh,
(37:26):
you're going to crack. I see a crack or you must crack
now, you know, because if you don't, you're just wasting time
away and you're going to die, not cracked and blah, blah,
blah. I think that we all have the
right to our own story. I believe that people have to
earn the right to hear your story, period.
(37:49):
When I think about the entirety,the entire egg of this episode,
just know that when we have cracks, it could be something as
innocent as listening to a transperson story and identifying
with that story or that shift and that feeling of something
(38:11):
that feels right. For example, putting on one of
your wife's dresses. And there's this awareness and
this calm that says this feels like home, this feels right.
And this can be scary. These kind of cracking moments
can be really scary. And often it does.
And it should involve a period of questioning and exploring and
(38:36):
beginning some sort of process. I'm not saying it has to be a
transition process, but something has shifted within you
and you are not the same being that you were before you had
this awareness. So be gentle with yourself.
Know that there are many cracks that take place over time and
(38:59):
that swinging into action and really firing up that candle is
the quickest way to blow it out.It's the quickest way to get
scared again and go back in the closet and shut that down and
look for that Gorilla Glue to stick on that shell.
But curiosity and awareness and journaling and getting
(39:22):
professional help and questioning and wrestling and
that slow burn that is acceptance.
It's a lot more delicate a process and it's easier to
handle an egg. An egg that deserves kindness
and gentleness. And one crack does not mean that
(39:44):
you have to slam the whole egg on the ground and have a
splatter everywhere. But give yourself time and love
as you peel back the layers of identity and self-expression and
different parts of yourself thatare new to.
You absolutely. I'm just going to end my retort
with the following, which is show not crock.
(40:08):
That's by Gandalf in the queer community compression, and
that's all I have to say. I think you said everything else
very distinctly, and I could give you a dozen reasons.
Edit a dozen. I could give you some extra
large grade A reasons additionally to what you said,
but you said it all and yeah, it's all about timing.
(40:29):
Like 3 minute soft boiled. Egg.
I get it. I'm just full of them now, baby.
Yeah. It is really about your pace,
your timing, your acceptance, what feels right to you.
Yeah, don't let anybody tell you.
I think anybody who tells you anything about you may have your
best interests at heart, may know exactly the right thing,
(40:50):
but also you need to find that truth resonate inside you as a
result and make your own decisions as opposed to
following blindly what somebody else is telling you that you're
going to be like. You know, my parents said, hey,
you like working with Lego as a child, you should be an
architect. And I went to six years of
architectural school to get 2°. I've never used so therefore so
(41:11):
therefore maybe listening to my parents assumptions on my behalf
wasn't necessarily the best thing to do.
But you did grow up as an adult to put together many a Lego set
and have yourself surrounded by Legos.
Maybe I should? Have constantly.
Maybe I should have moved to Denmark and been a Lego designer
(41:32):
versus an architect. So, you know, things could have
gone different ways. But I did find my way.
As you just said, I did find my way back to Lego as an adult and
enjoy them thoroughly. So again, somebody told me that
I liked a certain thing. I thought they were right.
I listened to them. Spend all this money doing this
thing and then I guess it came back to it much later, at least
(41:55):
from the thing I loved about everything was the Lego.
In the building of the Lego was really the heart of what I love.
And I came back to that enjoyment.
It took me years and years and years, but I really found the
passion of it. But again, that's an aside.
But again, life be life in shells be cracking, eggs be
(42:16):
yoking. We keep on keeping on.
We do. We keep on keeping on cock a
doodle Doo and thank you so muchfor first of all for showing up
with me. I've missed you, Savannah.
And now we're back, baby, we're back.
We're back together forever. Or till the next hiatus.
(42:41):
No, we're back. And thank you for spending a
Wednesday with us. Or if you waited the next day
after this new episode came out,Happy Thursday, Friday,
Saturday, Sunday, whatever. Whenever you tune into us, we
appreciate it. We love you.
Please continue to talk about usbehind our back.
(43:03):
Please continue to share. We have noticed those
individuals that continue to share us each week and we
appreciate and we see you and thank you Gold stars for you.
And yeah, let's just keep on cracking and then let's just
keep on. Maybe we should stay away from
(43:23):
eggs for, you know, maybe a weekor two.
And I really apologize to those individuals that on the commute
always get that breakfast, you know, sausage, egg and cheese.
It's not a bad thing. It's delicious.
OK, so. As you are, you are.
You are delicious. You are.
You are delicious. Our listeners are delicious.
(43:46):
And what was that you were goingto?
Say, I was going to say I'm literally so hungry that I think
I need to go have some breakfastbecause this has been a
delicious episode and I would love to say my final bye for
now. Until next time, you can find me
(44:08):
on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing
and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK and to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hanger or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhanger.com.
(44:34):
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, Understanding
the feminine cross wrestling experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross wrestler,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker and author of the Living
with Cross Wrestling book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hey, Julie. Hi, Savannah.
I. Have missed you so much.
I've been gone for so long. I know I have and I think the
lightness of my hair, meaning the red washing out and the
(00:51):
highlights being popping and thedepression setting in.
Where are you, red? I think that represents the
amount of time that I have missed you and the amount of
time that we haven't talked. I know I'm talking off air.
I did 3 episodes, A2 partner anda little secret project that I
did just because. And that was all because you
(01:12):
were vacationing, which you deserved.
You had Remy off to summer camp and in her return, and I know
you got a little bit sick upon your return.
So yeah, life be lifing. Right.
And I had my stuff that just passed with the conference in
Atlanta that we can speak about next week.
(01:34):
Just a lot of things going on inlife, a lot of things going on
in our lives specifically. But yeah, it's good to get back
with you. It's good to see you.
I think you look beautiful and your hair looks amazing in spite
of your own personal opinion of it.
Thank you. I just feel kind of washed out
and tired looking and don't comment to that because I see
(01:55):
you looking at me looking at me looking at you.
OK, so I, yeah, I've been back from a journey.
I went back to New England for two weeks.
I went to see a lot of friends. I saw my brother, I went on his
sailboat. And I I laughed, I cried, I ate.
I saw my nephew, I saw my best friend from college.
(02:16):
It was a lot of a lot of visits with many different types of
people. And thankfully, yeah, I mean, I
didn't tell certain people that I was coming.
So hopefully they're not listening right now and if they
are, sorry I can't see everyone,no.
You can't. And it is that weird.
(02:37):
It's funny to say that because I've had that same thought of,
well, I just won't tell them I'mcoming because if I won, if I
can't squeeze them in, make thatside trip or feel an obligation
because now I've said I'm comingto the area and they're going to
start saying, oh, oh, we should get together.
You know there's there. Is so only so much one person
can do in Even so many days? I don't think anybody would be
(03:01):
upset about it that they missed you.
They'd be upset they missed you,but I think they would
understand. I think that just the rule of
not posting on social media is just like a pretty kind thing to
do when you're not planning on telling everyone you love that
you're going to a certain place just to spare those feelings.
All in all, it was a great time.And next year, they'll be people
(03:23):
who I saw that I won't be telling, you know what I mean,
to make way for, you know, some people.
Yeah, that makes sense. It's all about pop you but.
You are popular, so of course you're in high demand.
Yes. And all of us missed you while
you're awake. Yes, and I missed this
(03:44):
community. I miss being back at this desk,
scaring, staring, a basket of biscuits, a basket of mixed
biscuits and a biscuit mixer. I did not warm up my vocals
before this podcast, but I have missed you and I forget the
original point before I made that little slur.
(04:07):
But since I've been back, I've been reconnecting with my
clients and I've been slowly andsteadily getting back to all the
things. And as I've transitioned from
being in this vacation mode to being back in work mode, there's
been a few times that I've heardthis particular term having to
(04:31):
do with eggs. No, don't get hungry.
The term was presented to me by a client that said my egg
cracked, and that term is something that I have also heard
about within the trans community.
In terms of the moment a person realizes they are transgender,
(04:54):
it also can take on many different meanings before that
crack, living in denial or confusion and all the different
ways that this egg represents a shift in their journey.
So I'd love to talk about it today.
I'd love to put a little bit of focus on the transgender
experience as well as how it pertains to the cross dressing
(05:17):
experience. If you are listening and this is
a term that you identify with orthis is a term that you have
heard through the Grapevine but haven't really understood what
it means, this is the episode for you.
So let's crack it open. Get it?
Get it. Yolks on you yolks.
(05:40):
This is where your punny sense of humor goes off, which I do
not have much of my old knocker.Yeah, whatever, Humpty Dumpty.
OK, so. So let let us start.
Let us start on this journey. And so far, yes, I have heard
the term like either baby trans or eggs little trans egg
(06:01):
referred in several different ways and applications.
When you're talking about eggs, yes I did get hungry because I
do love bacon and eggs. 2 It reminded me of when I was in
high school. I don't know if you had this
because you probably were super cool, but we had the thing where
they would go up on the roof of the school and have to build a
contraption and put an egg in the middle to see if they
(06:22):
dropped off the building, if they would crack or not.
And then it also remind me of that you carry an egg around and
at the end of the week you wouldhope that I'm assuming they
marked, the teacher marked it Soyou could just like have break
an egg and then just bring in the replacement later on.
You seem to be a very popular metaphor for different things,
either for care or for things cracking and breaking.
(06:45):
Yes, I it's funny that egg is the center of a lot of things,
which seems odd, but also seems very appropriate.
And I heard this term, oof. I'm still in New York, so I'm
talking maybe, I don't know, maybe close to 10 years ago, if
not a little bit more 10 to 12 years ago.
So I will start off with my story that I have about it,
(07:09):
which is one of the couples thatare in my first book, Living
Cross Dressing Defining into Normal, available now.
Amazon.com. One of the stories when we were
interviewing a couple, me and Judy, they're talking about how
they had gone to Fantasia Affairbecause again, for them, this
(07:30):
discovery had just come to being, come to be for them as a
couple and the husband as an individual and his transness and
as a cross dresser. And so they went to Fantasia
fair to suss out what was happening, get a little bit of
knowledge dropped on them through the week or weekend.
And again, I am paraphrasing, I don't remember the exact story
(07:50):
in the exact way, but there was a lot of breakout sessions.
Conversations were had. And there was possibly one of
the dinners or possibly some sort of breakout session where
the husband was regaling possibly their story.
And then on the way out, as people were filing out of the
room or the conference or the breakout or the luncheon or
(08:13):
whatever it might have been, another person said, oh, you're
just an egg. You're going to definitely
transition one day. So this was somebody within the
community with their own journeythat they understand for
themselves, associating the uncracked eggness of the friend
of mine. Like putting it on there, like
(08:34):
here's your egg, I'm putting it in your hands on, you know
that's going to crack and you'regoing to have this whole trans
rotation that happened to you. Now, I will say that at the time
it was very shocking to both thehusband and wife because it was
opening up or cracking open, if you will, something that was an
(08:54):
unknown unknown. What that means that there's
known known unknowns, unknown knowns and unknown unknown.
So those are like. All right, first of all, I truly
love you. Second of all, I blacked out at
the first. OK, so let's But I loved it.
(09:16):
I. Love it.
The point is, is that I think one of the fallacies of the egg
theory or usage of little trans egg is that it's making a lot of
assumptions for things we can't know for another person.
Even if that person themselves is a little baby trans egg and
hasn't cracked yet and is just discovering things through
(09:39):
exploration and cross dressing and see where that leads.
And hopefully their mind is openenough to the possibilities to
hear the voice inside of them that may lead to a cracking and
opening up of that shell. So I, I understand it.
I think it's very appropriate for many of us who are
discovering. It seems like my egg has been
cracking open a little at a timefor 40 years.
(10:01):
That's just about having knowledge and understanding of
making it a known thing of how it applies to.
So I think that's amazing and wecan definitely get into that.
And then conversely, I think sometimes it's misused,
especially when somebody's trying to apply it based on
their own experience or their own understanding.
And then giving it to you is like, hey, this is going to be
(10:24):
you. You will have your little beak
get through that shell and all of a sudden it'll become X.
Yeah, that you don't. Know right?
Well, first of all, I think it'sdangerous when anyone approaches
anyone and outs them or gives their own projection of what
they see another person to be, right?
(10:44):
And often the projection, well, it's a projection.
So they're keying in or queuing in or getting a psychic whiff of
something that very much remindsthem of some place that they
were in. And they see us a similar moment
of someone who's not quite there, or they see some sort of
mirroring or reflection of theirpast.
(11:05):
And I think that though intuition and wisdom tends to be
spot on at times, and I trust it, I think that it is dangerous
to diagnose someone with something that A there may not
be ready to hear B it may force them to go even deeper in the
(11:26):
closet and close that egg and put it back.
Just no and no and no. And also there's a third part of
it is this person does not have your thumbprint.
It does not have your experience.
So although you may feel a gut sense that this person needs to
be told that they're going to crack any day now or get ready
(11:47):
or oh, you're bisexual, you're gay, please.
Been there, done that, You know,the whole 90s.
I'm bisexual for a guy. When really they're gay.
OK, fine. But it's not the person's job to
be this into the future seeker about one's future because
you're not that person and you don't know.
And we have so many different roads which we could take.
(12:10):
And frankly, that's really, it'sa way of outing a person.
And that's a no, no in our community.
That's not your job, and you maybe outing someone who isn't part
of your story who isn't. Oh, you're wrong.
Yeah. And when you said that, it
remind me of the story you're telling me, reminds me of when
somebody comes out as gay or lesbian or whatever, right?
(12:32):
And they say, mom, I just something I have to tell you, I
think I'm gay. And the mom goes, oh, yeah,
we've known. It's one thing.
It's one thing for people to be like, I see the signs, I see the
hallmarks, right? But it's another thing to say,
son, you're gay. You need to like come to terms
with it with before the egg has cracked, right?
So yeah, that projection or eventhe obviously the intuition, the
(12:56):
wisdom of everything I'm seeing makes me believe for you that
this is true. And it may be.
I'm not saying it's not, But to actually throw that in front of
them when they're not ready to see it.
Already hear it? Already hear it That's that
wouldn't be dangerous. Absolutely.
I agree. Right, let's.
Talk about let's talk about the egg.
(13:17):
Yeah. So if you look at the egg and
the shell being what, an awareness or repression or the
shell of denial or something that someone is really trying to
keep from breaking open, right. If you think about that, what
you talked about the top of the episode where the teacher gives
(13:37):
a pair of people or individuals an egg to carry around.
And the idea is that the metaphor is that the egg is like
a baby and you can't be rough with the baby and being calm and
gentle and all this. I think that keeping yourself
together and keeping that shell complete and uncracked when you
are exhibiting signs, whether itbe through your body language,
(14:01):
maybe it's a little more feminine, whether it's through
another type of body language where you're born a biological
female, but your body language is very masculine and the kinds
of expression you are drawn to, the different elements are more
masculine Or butcher hard and you're a tomboy, but you're
(14:21):
trying to keep these parts of yourself together.
You're trying to keep this kind of egg intact.
And whether we see the egg as a representation of this denial,
repression, or unawareness, you're still working really hard
to keep that precious egg from cracking open.
Your parents, who may be in denial, are working very hard to
(14:43):
keep this egg whole from cracking and keeping it pure, if
you will, and taking this egg tochurch every Sunday.
And you know what I mean, Not letting this egg get into that
damn Devil's Rock'n'roll, you know.
But you know, when the egg cracks eventually, as I don't
(15:05):
want to say most or many or let's just go with many, that
feels good for my where this sentence is going for many.
There's only so long that you can keep this egg whole and pure
before there is a cracking. Not a complete cracking, but
maybe a crack at the top and then another crack.
And as you go through this cracking period, for me, that
(15:29):
could represent the realization or the acceptance or the
unfurling of 1's gender identity, sexual orientation,
creative followings, athletic abilities, whatever it is that
is in opposition with something you're trying really hard to
keep holding together. When that cracking comes out and
(15:52):
says, oh, I don't want to be a doctor, as my parents are
telling me. I've gone to own my own art
studio. I want to create things with my
hand using art. That's a bit of a crack.
Or, oh, I've never really felt whole in my masculinity.
In my femininity. One of my cracks, or one of the
(16:14):
shells falling down represents adifferent part of myself that
has been revealed to me. Whether it be taking my sister's
nightgown and lying in my room or looking at myself in this
nightgown. That crack led to about three
other cracks. Because this feels good and this
feels nice and I want to add a few more pieces to it.
(16:35):
What if I tried on a pair of hershoes?
This feels good and true. And once you have that crack,
it's really hard to, as much as our family or our closest
friends or a significant other wants to go find that little
piece of shell and glue it back together and hold it and say,
(16:56):
no, you are whole. You are true.
This is how you came into the earth as this whole true thing.
And no, I'm going to hold this piece of shell, no matter how
much they're trying to hold it on to you to make it seem like
this crack never happened or this crack.
We can't let anyone know about this crack.
That's impossible because it already broke off.
(17:16):
And what it's going to result inis a bigger crack and a bigger
shed of light. So yeah, I know I said a lot,
and I can see your eyes twinkling and burning to say
more. And I'd love to shut the fuck up
and let you speak, because I know you have lots to say.
Well, a couple things. Metaphorically, I'm going to
(17:37):
keep going with his AG motif as long as we can.
There are times when that part of shell cracks open or falls
off to your point that maybe somebody throws some duct tape
on it because they had an inkling of something that did
not make them feel good, like borrowing their scissors like
out and might have felt amazing in the moment.
(17:57):
And then the shame spiral comes in and all they want to do is
put that piece of shell back on the egg and clamp it down as
tight as possible and not go forward.
So that's where people try to keep the egg together with twine
and tape and glue and gum, just to keep it all in one semblance
of an egg shape, which again, atthis point is never going to be
(18:18):
the same because you've already experienced that thing.
That's now it is part of your mind, is now part of the cells
in your body because you've seenit for yourself, good or bad, or
how do you perceive it? You still felt it and you still
experienced it. That egg is never going to look
like that pristine white egg that it was.
So that being said, I also have another metaphor about eggs.
(18:41):
And this is because I watch a lot of reels on Instagram and
one of the reels somehow became the hatching of baby snakes.
And this guy was showing it was called a clutch.
I think some sort of Python was having babies and it was curled
up around his egg, a little clutch of eggs.
What the guy would do is he would pick up the egg and he
(19:03):
would shine a light through it to see how thin the walls were,
to see if it was ready to be broken open.
He found a couple that would never hatch.
They were very dark. Obviously, the baby snake did
not develop at all, but what he had done, there was one that was
damaged and he actually did a whole bunch of work to get it to
a point so that it could hatch naturally.
(19:24):
So the point I'm making in this is that the one that needed the
support without physically breaking open the egg was what
the parent, or the the guardian in his case of the snake's owner
was doing his best to support the eggs and give it the best
chance for survival. So I thought that was amazing.
(19:46):
I'm like, wow, you can actually put a resin on the egg because
the wall was too thin. So he thickened it up, and it
gave the egg time to mature naturally, so that the egg
himself, the stick itself, coulduse this little sharp, Peaky
thing on his nose to get throughit.
And and come into its own naturally or in its own time.
(20:06):
So I thought it was fascinating.I'm a goof and a geek that way.
I think it's appropriate in thatwe should be supporting the
growth in the maturity of the egg until such time is that the
person inside can actually crackthrough on their own the most
positive way possible. And I know that's not the truth
for everybody. I know that people need probably
(20:28):
even more of a push out the nestkind of thing.
But in terms of making sure thatthe best possible conditions are
there, it's all about love and support and making sure that we
may be aware of what the egg is supposed to be, quote UN quote.
But it's about letting that person come to it, to
themselves, knowing that they are surrounded by love and
support and understanding. Yeah, And I think we we
(20:53):
sometimes as I'm listening to ustalk about it, it's easy to say
that the egg is just deciding tochip away when they're ready.
But we also have to understand there are environmental things
that come into play that makes the egg naturally crack.
(21:14):
For example, our podcast, I knowthat for many people, based on
lots of feedback we've gotten, thank our podcast for being the
reason that they are able to find their true identity.
Or I never really knew what it was that I was experiencing, but
thanks to this episode, I can fully come into my own around
(21:36):
this or I had my wife listen to your podcast.
Whatever it is, when we get feedback, I definitely can
relate it to this whole idea of this removing moving of pieces
of shell and coming into a spacewith your identity and with the
idea of acceptance that is really beautiful and doesn't
(21:59):
really come with much forcefulness.
All right, you're going to crackor I'm just going to remove this
because I'm at a pride event. It just blows off.
It's just one of those things that I picture as you can try
really hard to keep your egg whole.
You can purge your closet and try your hardest, use your
toughest Gorilla Glue to get that shell back on.
(22:21):
But in my experience of doing this for just over a decade,
they always come back. The shell always blows off.
The desire, the need to dress again or to experience the
femininity, it's within you, right?
So it's the idea that we crack open and then suddenly we're
free and we fully accept. Well, that's not how I see this
(22:44):
metaphor, you know, because it'svery vulnerable When an egg
cracks, whether it be a little crack or a whole crack, then we
have to see ourselves for who wetruly are.
Then we have to experience ourselves as we as we truly are,
within the context of what our job, our family, our role, our
(23:06):
projection of ourselves, our inner child.
There's so many different layersthat come from the exposing of
this crack to ourselves, never mind to our families, but to
ourselves. Yeah, the egg is there to
protect you until, and we like to say at such time, it's ready
to be fit enough to crack of itself so that we can breathe
(23:30):
and grow and expand. And that's not always the case.
And you said there's a lot of environmental reasons why you
don't want an egg to crack from around you because you may be
living in a very small minded community, a very religious
community, growing up in a household that's very anti
trans. There's so many obstacles that
(23:52):
you would just wish that the enamel, that egg would stay the
shape of an egg forever, but yetit can only protect you for so
long. And once you are ready to make
that move, to breathe more freely from your authenticity
and use some of your agency to do it, that really does evolve,
leaving that shell behind for good.
(24:12):
Or I'll. And by by that I mean just
because you came out of your shell and you've acknowledged
something for yourself does not mean the road is all of a sudden
easier. Right.
So it's almost like I wish I hadthis one egg, but I wish there
was a bigger egg. Kind of like an inverted Russian
doll. I'm OK to get this far out of my
shell. As long as there's another
protective shell around me, thenit'll be OK.
(24:35):
But it's not. Once you've felt it, seen it,
explored it, yeah, you can deny it.
You can put it back in its shellas much as you want.
And like you said, you purged, you got rid of it.
It's like, I'm not going to think about this anymore.
Whether it takes a year or ten years or 20 years or however
long, you're going to find yourself back there.
(24:56):
You're going to loop back aroundto that thought again.
And whether you decide to pursueit or not is purely your choice.
But it seems like once you've had experience and you've leaned
into it for even a moment, it tends to not be something you so
casually shake off. Yeah.
And when I think about, I think from the start of this episode,
(25:17):
it's very clear that you and I have a loyalty and a a lens that
is clearly a cross dressing lensor dual gender lens.
Or I'm very I'm able to access different examples in my work
through someone who has the privilege of being able to show
up in their male self. And then they have this other
(25:40):
side of themselves that is beautiful, whole and true.
And then they have time to dressor they don't have time to dress
or this and that. If we were to look at this as
not so much as the umbrella, butas transitioning transgender
individuals verse cross dressingindividuals, and we were to look
at this as them being separate, not an umbrella.
(26:03):
And we were able to say, huh, well, I can see and I can
understand how it applies to transgender individuals.
But what about crossdressers, right?
Maybe we have a couple listenersthat are like, well, I'm just a
crossdresser, so I don't know ifI should continue to tune in
because I don't know if this applies to me.
I think if you're that person, Isay, hang on, don't go anywhere.
(26:27):
I'd say that's the egg cracking metaphor.
Absolutely applies to crossdressers and individuals
that identify as crossdressers, individuals that use that term
as an action. I think it applies in ways that
are different from someone who identifies as trans and goes
(26:47):
through that transition to become that other side of the
binary. So I think that a crack may look
like it may start with shame, but then it may move into
something that is more self acceptance.
The realization that it is not aphase, that it is something that
(27:10):
is true and real for someone, isan example of a crack of
something that has shifted within that as moving from
denial of this just being a phase to something that is more
wholesome, more true, more in the concept of self love.
That also pertains to seeing it as sexual only, right?
(27:35):
It's only sexual. It's only a kink.
Well then what happens when it normalizes?
And what happens when the kink runs out of steam and suddenly
you're wearing the same stuff that used to get you horny and
you just feel held? That to me is a crack.
Finally able to experience calm and joy and confidence and kind
(27:59):
of this euphoric feeling throughdressing and knowing that that's
not a bad thing, but that's a really good thing.
A really good thing that can be integrated and implemented in
all areas of your life, all parts of yourself.
That it's not so much a dark side, but it's a just a part of
yourself within all the other parts of yourself that makes you
(28:23):
human. Did you say human?
Human. It's so funny that the in the
the entirety of our podcast, oneof the major things that you and
I have spoken on air and off is that even though we are a niche
genre of podcasting and we target a very specific audience,
(28:46):
everything we typically talk about has such universal
applique, just like you said. And breaking the egg metaphor in
the cracking open of the egg metaphor is so addictive to the
human experience, not to the cross dressing experience, not
just the transitioning experience.
It is the human condition to, like you said, come to a place
(29:06):
of joy, self acceptance, findingout what the truth is for you.
You said it's not a phase or it's not just a kink.
Those are things that were put into our head early on as we're
already in the world that as we all of a sudden come to it,
that's like, Oh no, I enjoyed wearing my sister's panties and
it got me off and I must have a kink or this is taboo or this is
(29:30):
a fetish or this is an X, it's AY and Z because that's how
society has already deemed it. It's already told us that's what
it is. So we hold on as tight as
possible and try to pull those pieces of shell back in as
quickly as possible. Sometimes because of the shame
and something the the way we were told to believe into
something are told to believe how something is if it presents
(29:51):
in a certain way. But yet once you crack it open
and realize that what was the shell?
The shell was just social norms.The shell was just societal
constraints. The shell was the thing keeping
us back from being our full-fledged self.
So now you're thinking about theegg, and now you're thinking
about a little baby bird bursting out of it.
(30:14):
And they just stretched their wings and they still don't know
how to fly, but they're now in the nest wanting to be fed.
And in this case, I'm going to say being fed is being
supported, being loved. We are crying out and screaming
out for that worm, that little regurgitated worm that's going
to help us grow and prosper and be the best version of ourself.
(30:34):
And again, still have to be kicked out of the nest a little
bit sometimes. And that's when it comes into
support. When it comes into other people
who are similar to us and have similar stories and are
successfully living the life they are living.
Doesn't mean you're going to endup living that exact life, but
it will give you confidence to live your life.
So absolutely. The shell is, well, protective.
(30:55):
It's also constraining the cracks.
We want to sometimes make believe they never happened.
But yet when we lean into it andthe cracks are now open and we
accept the best nature of ourselves as a result of that,
it's everything. Like I said, one of the
takeaways I have is that self love or the new understanding of
(31:18):
self or that clarity that we have that seems most true or
even more true to us than previously.
That's how I've been reflecting.I've been spending years and
years and years going like, oh, this is just a thing I do is
kind of fetch a stick. Oh, I'm a transvestite.
No, no, no, I'm a crossdresser. Oh, look, now dual genders,
like, oh, wait, I'm under the trans umbrel.
(31:39):
It's a constant, constant evolution that all humans are
taking from being a little egg to burst out of the egg, to
learning to fly, learning to spread your wings, learning to
learn new things and how to be, and just becoming more and more
and more yourself as you grow. Yeah, that kind of takes the egg
(32:00):
metaphor to its absolute completion, that once you leave
all the broken shells behind, you're going to have to find
your way and be the best versionof you you can find.
Yeah. And I, I like that when we
started this episode, you, I don't know the exact phrase you
used, but you had mentioned thatyou had have been cracking for
the past, what, 20 years? I don't know, Fourty, 4 fingers
(32:23):
and one opus. Yeah, for 40 years.
And I like that idea that we're just continuing to crack as we
continue to better understand ourselves.
And I think that if the, if we, you look at it as the egg has
(32:43):
been completely cracked open andthere is either a yoke or a bird
and there's no turning back. Well, I think that even as a
bird, there are moments of awakening and there has to be
and moments of learning. And so for me to be able to view
myself as constantly that egg that is experiencing a series
(33:05):
and will always experience a series of cracks feel good to me
because it feels like there's just a constant.
There's just a constant. What just came to my mind that
made me giggle like a schoolgirlwas a constant shelling and
unshelling, a constant shelling and re shelling, if you will,
(33:25):
which I don't know if that makessense at all.
Basically the idea were sleepwalking and then we have
these moments of forgetting or and then these moments of
awareness, which may be very Buddhist.
I'm not sure you know that it's it can be seen as like a light
bulb moment or it can be seen asa gradual slow awakening.
(33:47):
Whatever it is, I believe that it's a constant throughout our
lives till we die. I mean, that's how I'd like to
look at it. I never want to know everything
about myself. I want to continuously keep on
relearning and learning old concepts.
And I don't know micro shell by micro shell.
(34:07):
Well, it makes sense that even if you do know a thing doesn't
make it absolutely your truth forever.
Just like nobody can tell you what your journey looks like
just because they may have experienced one event similar,
or a couple years similar, or a lifetime that seems very
similar. Just because somebody else's
story is akin to yours does not make it your story.
(34:30):
Now you can learn and grow from stories outside of you and say,
oh, that makes sense, that resonates, but don't let anybody
tell you what your story is. That's definitely I want to keep
hammering at. Home I.
Feel that sometimes the elders in the community, let's say, not
to say they're old, but they've had no more.
They've had more experience in the community.
(34:51):
Sometimes they are very wrapped up in the experiences they've
had. And yes, they don't want you to
suffer. They don't want you to have to
figure things out and go throughthe things that they went
through, all the trials and tribulations.
Absolutely. I understand that sometimes
though when they make a proclamation for you on your
behalf, whether it's true or not, it can be very unnerving
(35:12):
and unsettling to the person that is the object of that
conversation. Yeah.
And in those ways, I would rather just somebody tell me a
story that I can relate to or not relate to either now or in
the future. And then just let me come to it,
when I'm able to come to it and just have a support systems as
opposed to somebody saying you are this now, do it now, be that
(35:34):
way. All right.
I don't feel it, but OK, it's that kind of dichotomy that got.
We have to make sure that our listeners understand that even
with the best intention, sometimes somebody telling you
what you are, who you are, is not really appropriate.
Yeah, yeah, as you're saying allthis, there's a part of me that
feels like a naughty little schoolgirl.
(35:55):
Like, I won't, I didn't, I'm notgoing to do that anymore is
right. Because there is a part of my
work, the kind of coaching, consulting part of it that is
very tuned in to someone's storyand is very tuned in to some of
the needs that they can't alwayssee for themselves in terms of
(36:17):
the next step or meet. Translating into something that
feels really true based on what someone is saying or feeling and
coming up with a concept. And it's a recommendation.
So it's complicated and it's. OK.
But the difference is people arecoming to you.
So for you to make that assessment is a collaboration
versus an unsolicited proclamation.
(36:41):
The difference is somebody just awed the blue saying you're this
and not really knowing your story beyond A1 little pinpoint
of data versus you having sessions with people and
learning about them and asking them questions.
And then coming up with A and not even proclaiming it but
saying you may find benefit in X.
Whether they choose it or not, you're still leaving it in their
(37:03):
hands versus you will be a transgender.
I saw you, Rebecca. That is your name.
I'm getting strong vibes. Tell me now, Miss Jules, I will
tell you your. Well, you miss Cleo.
What's going? On up in here exactly.
Oh my goodness. OK.
But anyways, yes, I agree that no one should tell you, oh,
(37:26):
you're going to crack. I see a crack or you must crack
now, you know, because if you don't, you're just wasting time
away and you're going to die, not cracked and blah, blah,
blah. I think that we all have the
right to our own story. I believe that people have to
earn the right to hear your story, period.
(37:49):
When I think about the entirety,the entire egg of this episode,
just know that when we have cracks, it could be something as
innocent as listening to a transperson story and identifying
with that story or that shift and that feeling of something
(38:11):
that feels right. For example, putting on one of
your wife's dresses. And there's this awareness and
this calm that says this feels like home, this feels right.
And this can be scary. These kind of cracking moments
can be really scary. And often it does.
And it should involve a period of questioning and exploring and
(38:36):
beginning some sort of process. I'm not saying it has to be a
transition process, but something has shifted within you
and you are not the same being that you were before you had
this awareness. So be gentle with yourself.
Know that there are many cracks that take place over time and
(38:59):
that swinging into action and really firing up that candle is
the quickest way to blow it out.It's the quickest way to get
scared again and go back in the closet and shut that down and
look for that Gorilla Glue to stick on that shell.
But curiosity and awareness and journaling and getting
(39:22):
professional help and questioning and wrestling and
that slow burn that is acceptance.
It's a lot more delicate a process and it's easier to
handle an egg. An egg that deserves kindness
and gentleness. And one crack does not mean that
(39:44):
you have to slam the whole egg on the ground and have a
splatter everywhere. But give yourself time and love
as you peel back the layers of identity and self-expression and
different parts of yourself thatare new to.
You absolutely. I'm just going to end my retort
with the following, which is show not crock.
(40:08):
That's by Gandalf in the queer community compression, and
that's all I have to say. I think you said everything else
very distinctly, and I could give you a dozen reasons.
Edit a dozen. I could give you some extra
large grade A reasons additionally to what you said,
but you said it all and yeah, it's all about timing.
(40:29):
Like 3 minute soft boiled. Egg.
I get it. I'm just full of them now, baby.
Yeah. It is really about your pace,
your timing, your acceptance, what feels right to you.
Yeah, don't let anybody tell you.
I think anybody who tells you anything about you may have your
best interests at heart, may know exactly the right thing,
(40:50):
but also you need to find that truth resonate inside you as a
result and make your own decisions as opposed to
following blindly what somebody else is telling you that you're
going to be like. You know, my parents said, hey,
you like working with Lego as a child, you should be an
architect. And I went to six years of
architectural school to get 2°. I've never used so therefore so
(41:11):
therefore maybe listening to my parents assumptions on my behalf
wasn't necessarily the best thing to do.
But you did grow up as an adult to put together many a Lego set
and have yourself surrounded by Legos.
Maybe I should? Have constantly.
Maybe I should have moved to Denmark and been a Lego designer
(41:32):
versus an architect. So, you know, things could have
gone different ways. But I did find my way.
As you just said, I did find my way back to Lego as an adult and
enjoy them thoroughly. So again, somebody told me that
I liked a certain thing. I thought they were right.
I listened to them. Spend all this money doing this
thing and then I guess it came back to it much later, at least
(41:55):
from the thing I loved about everything was the Lego.
In the building of the Lego was really the heart of what I love.
And I came back to that enjoyment.
It took me years and years and years, but I really found the
passion of it. But again, that's an aside.
But again, life be life in shells be cracking, eggs be
(42:16):
yoking. We keep on keeping on.
We do. We keep on keeping on cock a
doodle Doo and thank you so muchfor first of all for showing up
with me. I've missed you, Savannah.
And now we're back, baby, we're back.
We're back together forever. Or till the next hiatus.
(42:41):
No, we're back. And thank you for spending a
Wednesday with us. Or if you waited the next day
after this new episode came out,Happy Thursday, Friday,
Saturday, Sunday, whatever. Whenever you tune into us, we
appreciate it. We love you.
Please continue to talk about usbehind our back.
(43:03):
Please continue to share. We have noticed those
individuals that continue to share us each week and we
appreciate and we see you and thank you Gold stars for you.
And yeah, let's just keep on cracking and then let's just
keep on. Maybe we should stay away from
(43:23):
eggs for, you know, maybe a weekor two.
And I really apologize to those individuals that on the commute
always get that breakfast, you know, sausage, egg and cheese.
It's not a bad thing. It's delicious.
OK, so. As you are, you are.
You are delicious. You are.
You are delicious. Our listeners are delicious.
(43:46):
And what was that you were goingto?
Say, I was going to say I'm literally so hungry that I think
I need to go have some breakfastbecause this has been a
delicious episode and I would love to say my final bye for
now. Until next time, you can find me
(44:08):
on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing
and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK and to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hanger or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhanger.com.
(44:34):
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
Popular Podcasts
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.