September 24, 2025 • 32 mins
In this second of two episodes, Julie wants to talk to Savannah about the accessories that help in a successful feminine presentation. Julie is so excited by the topic that she brings and discussed her own top three accessories she uses in her own presentation! Listen now to find out what accessories Julie brought, and see if you can guess which accessories they are! And find out from the red-headed stylist herself quick tips, tricks, and tactics you can use in the own pursuit of your feminine presentation.
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, Understanding
the feminine cross wrestling experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross wrestler,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker and author of the Living
with Cross Wrestling book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hello, Miss Rubenstein. Hi, Savannah.
So we are we ready for my show? I'm.
Ready, baby, I'm ready. I feel like suddenly a Lily
toblet and the giant big couch and I'm like, OK, playing with
my shoes. I'm going to do my share now,
(00:52):
OK? I love it.
So as I'm looking around my laptop, but the third item which
why start with the third? Why not start with the first?
You do it, girl. So the first accessory that
really was a game changer for mein terms of my identity, my
(01:15):
identity as a stylist, my identity as it relates to Fox
and Hanger is something that I discovered on Etsy and that's
these beautiful made with bone Savannah's nodding made with
bone Angel ear stretchers. It has a front part with the
(01:37):
piercing that goes into the ear and then the back part is this
gorgeous wing and for whatever. So when you put them on like an
earring, it gives the illusion that you have this little
stretch, this little gauge in your lobe.
That for me is to it's just enough edge for me.
And I've always been attracted to that gauge look, but I never
(02:00):
liked the idea of she take it off and then suddenly there's
this hole. I never liked that.
So for me this was so gorgeous and it gave me just enough edge
while it being such a soft and romantic kind of look.
It made me feel edgy and just the right way.
I used to really get off on going to more conservative
(02:22):
events because I definitely as aindividual, my kind of
socialization and my upbringing and all that stuff leans towards
more of a affluent crowd as wellas being this like total urgent
St. hippie. So whenever I can rock these,
it's something that is more conservative.
I always feel like I'm in perfect harmony and balance with
(02:45):
myself. This has been a trend since I
discovered it over 15 years ago.It's been my go to.
I can't think of any other earrings that I would rather
wear. Suddenly, all earrings,
including my very long period with the Jlo hoop, which lasted,
I don't know, over a decade. Thanks, Jlo.
It totally trumped that because I finally found something that
(03:08):
just felt like home to me. It felt like I was this fairy
and it was attached to my earlobe.
And I kind of been playing with this Angel wing and then I have
a version of a swan wing. And then this kind of front part
is more of a swan's head. And then a pair that you've seen
as well. And I've posted a lot of
pictures. They're made from this clay and
(03:31):
they're almost very, they're much more extreme and give that
look of artsiness, avant-garde Ness, which being avant-garde is
something that speaks to me in terms of a anesthetic.
And I love them. And yeah, I can't say enough
thank you, Etsy, for continuing to add the fake ear stretchers
(03:54):
to your repertoire. Whenever I search fake ear
stretcher earrings, look at this.
It's so me. I've almost never known you
without those. I mean, that was separating the
repertoire as long as I've knownyou.
And I did think they were ear stretchers.
But wait, she doesn't have a gauge hole 'cause I'm the same
way. I think it's fascinating to see
people with large gauge holes and sometimes they have the rims
(04:16):
inside to keep it open, but see people who would just, they
don't have anything in and kind of want to say flops.
It's a little loose. And so that's definitely not for
me. But yeah, to be able to do
something along those lines in avery full way and lean into that
edginess without sacrificing your biology of your earlobes
for it is pretty awesome. Yeah.
(04:36):
And I'll never forget so many years ago when Remy was so
little and I had taken my first several overnight trip away for
the first time. And I visited Kate.
We were just reconnecting and I had these, I had Angel wings
with the the front part. And at some part towards the end
of the trip, I revealed that they were an earring.
(04:58):
And she's like, oh, I would havetotally thought they were real.
And for whatever reason, the fact that she thought that I was
someone that could pull that offand get away with that, like
even though it's so obvious to me now and it's so obvious,
obvious to like people who know me that this is something that's
in alignment, it felt so cool tome.
(05:20):
I'm like, this is great. So yeah, I love these.
And they're always white and they're always just exquisite.
I just think they're exquisite. So that's one my favorite one.
The second one is about five years ago, there was like a lot
of awesome headbands on Amazon. I don't know what was happening
(05:43):
and maybe it had to do with my search engine, but definitely
they upped their game in terms of encrusted headbands that I
went through a huge encrusted headband phase.
If I'm going to move my head andyou can see like a bunch of
headbands behind me, I have oneswith pearls on them that are
black leather. I have ones that have
butterflies attached to them. But this is my favorite.
(06:05):
It reminds me of, it could be like a 1920s situation, like a
flapper. But yeah, this is all I'm going
to try to describe it to our listeners.
It's totally encrusted with whatlooks like several different
shapes of like fake diamonds. The top is circular.
(06:26):
The entire headband. It's very heavy to wear, right?
It's fucking heavy. Is it heavy or?
Sorry, so you go from super light faux earrings to the Super
heavy? Headband OK and I used to wear
this a lot when I would rock thehallways of the preschool, so to
speak and go out to restaurants as well in them.
(06:47):
And I often will for those listeners that have worked with
me and on a more consistent basis, I have definitely put it
on for a Zoom, but it could be heavy, you know, for Zoom when
you're sitting there with this. So I don't know, I feel like
those that can pull off a crown should, of course, and this
isn't like a crown crown. This is like a headband.
(07:10):
I mean those who can pull off certain things.
I mean, we're all Queens, so we all deserve a crown.
But look at this shiver and shine.
Yeah, that I know. People have seen that on your
social. Yeah.
It's your most epic of all your headbands that you have.
It's the widest. It's the most sparkly.
It's almost like a hat, it's so big.
Yes, and Speaking of hats. Uh oh.
(07:34):
Tell me. It's the talk to me that is the
third accessory. That is the item I just truly
love. Now above my closet are about 20
hats that are on the top top shelf that even on this Zoom
it's covered. But the hat that I came to
today, Savannah's nodding because you're like, Yep, the
(07:56):
old standby is this paperboy Newsies ass cat that I'll wear.
I should be wearing it. With this outfit, I'll often put
two pigtails on either end. Very cute.
And the fake ear stretchers and I just feel like it's so
masculine and I'm such a feminine being that it when I
(08:16):
wear it, it's perfection for me In terms of my style, other than
the fact that I had a crush on all the Newsies back in the day
on the Disney Channel, the cult classic.
I just love playing with men's masculine accessories and kind
of pieces. So this is definitely a favorite
(08:36):
pad of mine. And I don't have more than one
of this style. This one may disappear at some
point and then I'll find it one that is very similar.
But this has probably been a go to for let's just say 20 years.
Wow. That one specifically you've
had. I've had at least two or three
versions of this. Yeah, and it's Stewart's of
(09:00):
Scotland, Made in Scotland. Yes.
I will never go into a hat store.
I will always thrift store my hats.
So you'll never go to a haberdashery to get your
Scottish hats. Never, because I would be broke.
You'll be broke. I'll be broke like a joke.
Yes, so. But before we go, what type of
(09:23):
hat is that? I know you called it a newsy
hat, but what is the style of hat that?
Paperboy, I guess. It's called what I got.
I have to look this up. Picture like a cap picture.
This front part could have like a snap if you will.
It doesn't, does it? It does my give me God Sherlock
Holmes. I just unsnapped it.
(09:43):
I didn't know there was a snap here.
That's so fun. I don't think I'll ever wear it
this way, but I could look at this.
This is a different vibe. And you nailed it.
It's a news cap. With herring bone.
With herring bone. Herring bone prints that have
some light Browns in it as well as some blacks and some Blues.
(10:03):
Yeah, they've got all sorts of names to it.
Newsies. I mean, you nailed it.
They're called Newsies. And when and if I ever age out
of this look, you'll never just bronze this, OK?
Is that with a snap or without asnap?
Without the snap, there has a snap down.
OK. So one quick question before we
go on is how do you wear it? Do you wear with the snap in the
(10:25):
brim in the back? Do you wear in the front?
How do you wear it? I was about to literally reach
this computer and be like, we have to get through this
podcast. But that is actually a good
question. I do not wear it backwards,
although I may be able to pull that off.
This feels very 80s, yeah. This very Samuel Jackson Kanga.
(10:45):
Right. Personally, this isn't me.
The brim goes in the front and Itold you with the pig right with
with the buttons snapped. I didn't even know there was a
snap until literally 2 months ago which is already distracting
me. And then I often will do the
pigtails. I love it.
OK, yeah, I am not a hat person.I've tried hats.
I've gone as Savannah, two stores and look at the big
(11:08):
floppy hats or the the like. I'm going to the Kentucky Derby,
all the different styles and forwhatever reason, hat ain't for
me and don't work on my face. I don't know what it is, but
yeah. Literally, I am like sweating
now. That's how passionate I am about
hats. OK, I like the knitted hat,
which often used to come with the giant Jlo hoops.
(11:30):
I will wear that in the 90° heatas well as fall, winter, spring.
All you got to do is call, OK, and I'll be there.
Yes, I will. So then you got the the Chaplin
hat. I just like it all OK.
If I seem frustrated, it's because my love of hats could
take over important parts of this episode that we've all like
(11:53):
to move on. So we know that for Julie, a hat
is great. I love it.
Once I didn't wear it to the school I worked at, and people
said, you have hair. And I'm like, what?
Because that's totally contradictory to the fact that
the other thing I spend the mosttime and money on is making sure
that my red hair is up to speed.That's right.
(12:14):
OK, so moving right along, should we add a quote as a
palette cleanser of? Course.
OK, so this is from Olivia Faye Marie Walcott, my tattooed
choker that is one of the first things I bought when I came out
that are my estrogen molecule earrings.
(12:36):
Beautiful. Love that answer.
Let's just reel it back in, people.
And before I get into like tips and tricks, which I know that
that's probably what the peoplesare aching for, I'm just going
to let you know and I'm going tounearth the idea about why a
podcast on accessories is so necessary.
(12:58):
OK. So, so maybe to just change
things up, you can just ask me like ask me that question like
why is it podcast on accessoriesso necessary?
All right, let me. What's my motivation?
OK, hold on one second. So, Julie?
Yes. I have a question for you.
Please. I'd love that we did our top
three amazing accessories, but why is it so important to talk
(13:21):
on a podcast about accessories? Like why are you meaning?
Like why is it so necessary? Yes, absolutely.
That is such a good question. OK, so when it comes to male,
what are you laughing at? Me I've.
Laughing since silly, OK? When it comes to male to female
transformation, I mean, I have acouple reasons why they're so
(13:44):
important, why this is so necessary.
The first thing I want to talk about is accessories in terms of
transformational tools. When it comes to
transformational tools and thinking about accessories, how
we use accessories can often shift how someone is perceived
as well as how they feel in their body in terms of their
(14:07):
feminine presentation, in terms of coming off maybe less
intimidating in a social situation, in terms of helping
create an illusion. For example, if you're wearing a
breastplate, depending on where the seam begins, some people
have a seam that hits right below the neck.
(14:30):
Some people have a seam that hits lower or above the neck
right at choker level. By adding a choker or adding a
necklace that hits right above that seam, you are creating an
illusion for someone that says that this is a feminine being
from head to toe. You are not having a moment
(14:52):
where if someone stares at you, suddenly you've broken the
illusion because they're right, their eyes immediately drawn, or
you're thinking in their head. Oh God, I feel so exposed to
that, to a part of my flesh thatis not attached to my body, if
you will. So accessories like a necklace
can totally mask that feeling ofbeing self-conscious or that
(15:15):
visual cue. In terms of creating this total
feminine illusion. Accessories can be extremely
affirming. For example, we talked about a
little earlier earrings. There's something about the
weight of earrings that can be very affirming.
Even if they hurt a little bit. That pain is almost like a good
(15:36):
pain for many people in terms ofthe female experience and
embodying that in the same way that shoes heels.
If you're in heels for too long,some people that are new to this
practice or some people that areshoe people can really get down
and feel totally within the female experience of that pain
(15:58):
that comes from rocking a reallyamazing pair of shoes for an
extended amount of time. I see you nodding.
Is there anything you'd like to add to that?
We've had episodes about how we think that heels and then my
heels have gone lower over the years.
But the whole idea that the heelaccentuates the legs and the
(16:19):
calves and the buttocks, and it really does just allow that line
of femininity from a profile standpoint really accentuate
itself based on having the arc to the foot, having so much of
the balance now on the back of the heel.
And it really does do a lot to make it happen.
So we will suffer through because we don't want to break
(16:39):
the illusion. Yeah.
And that the entire transformational experience, if
we were to look at accessories as powerful tools, we can think
about the heels, right? Depending on the height of the
heels like you were just talkingabout, it creates an entirely
different way of moving when it comes to embodying that feminine
(17:04):
expression. If we were to think about a
belt, right? Placing a belt at the smallest
part of your waist is especiallyeffective when you're wearing an
A line dress and a line skirt orsomething that is even more of a
body con or something to put right on top of a peplum waist
(17:24):
skirt or dress. Going back to the kind of
straight shift dress or something that doesn't that goes
straight down, is more rectangular or holds to your
body. If you don't have the curves, a
belt will give you an instant waste.
It will create this hourglass look that adds a certain curve
(17:45):
that wouldn't be there if you didn't use that accessory as a
tool when it comes to let's say a purse, a crossbody purse, a
shoulder purse. That is actually something, and
I teach this a lot when individuals go through this
femininity program that Ioffer is being able to use a purse to
(18:08):
help and assist your body language.
For example, if it's a crossbodybag, if for some reason
something about the crossbody bag, it minimizes A broader
barrelly rib area, stomach area.It also pushes the shoulders
back. And you're able to place your
hands in a way that if you utilize this and don't forget it
(18:32):
and really listen to this part of the podcast, it can really
help in terms of feminizing yourwhole body.
Knowing what to do with my hands.
I mean, that's important if you're going somewhere and if
you're taking the step to go outand fem, what do I do with my
hands? Well, a purse is a great place
to put that. OK, so the second reason why I
(18:53):
feel that accessories are so important is when it comes to
confidence and when it comes to empowerment.
It can really bring you a great sense of fulfillment and
confidence and empowerment. If you step out with an
accessory that you love, it can be used as a connective tissue
(19:15):
to have a conversation with someone.
Oh, I really like that necklace.Thank you, you know this is the
story behind this or it was given to me by my wife or thank
you. I saw it on Etsy.
It, it can break someone out of their shell in terms of
communication when someone is stepping out or how to connect
to people. It's almost more likely that
(19:36):
someone, especially when you're sitting together in a social
situation, is going to be drawn to a piece of jewelry rather
than maybe an overall wardrobe. Paul, an overall dress, it helps
you focus in. And if your dress does, if your
accessory, excuse me, does have a special meaning, that's your
chance to share. Oh I got this charm bracelet and
(20:00):
I asked all my friends to get mea charm for my birthday that
relates to our friendship. Or something they love about me.
It connects people and it creates a level of confidence,
especially for those newbie crossdressers that are stepping
out into the world for the firsttime.
Anyone can get dressed with clothes, but being able to
figure out how to wear accessories, how to honor
(20:23):
accessories, it feels to the person observing you like they
put a little more effort into it, into their presentation.
Now imagine that if you are putting that effort into your
presentation and you feel it's successful and know it to be
successful for you, then that's only going to enable and ignite
all the other intangible things about your presentation and
(20:46):
heighten those things because you are so confident in the
things you are adding on to the vistage who you are.
Right. For many people, in terms of
their first gender affirming procedure, getting your ears
pierced, that being something that this came up this week
around piercing someone's ears like that.
(21:07):
Not only providing that confidence and that empowerment,
but that gender affirming care that is important and often
overlooked. So accessories can celebrate
inclusivity and accessibility. Now we are far past the illusion
where accessories have to be forthe Richie Rich.
(21:29):
They have to be expensive accessories to be effective.
You can get them on Amazon, you can get them from a friend, you
can get them at thrift stores. And so that's something that I
want everyone to really be able to understand that anyone can
access accessories, especially now where there's so much online
(21:49):
fashion, there's like excess items.
Yeah, yeah. The idea or the time of costume
jewelry being gaudy is past now.Costume jewelry could be very
sought after with Judy resellingcostume jewelry.
Oh my. Really?
Who's going to buy that? But there's some Coventry and
other brands or other manufacturers, a costume jewelry
(22:12):
that's really sought after in the market.
So it's in and of itself has become a positive thing that
it's sought after and people love to wear and look good
wearing it. Totally.
So that's inclusivity and accessibility.
We had mentioned when it comes to the transformation, the
confidence, empowerment, that storytelling and engagement,
(22:34):
those two ideas are really huge when it comes to accessories.
I met my best friend because shecomplimented me on my ring.
Hey, I like your ring. Even though come to find out,
she didn't like the ring. She was just trying to strike up
a conversation. So it can be someone's ticket to
make a connection with someone that maybe they wouldn't talk to
(22:57):
normally because they're pullingat straws and they're saying,
you know, and that can be a really amazing bridge when it
comes to communicating with CIS women or, you know, making
people feel comfortable. Everyone loves a compliment.
Everyone loves a compliment. So extend that kindness to
(23:18):
someone and say, hey, I really like that ring.
And immediately that is going tochange the energy flow from
someone that may be in their experience, they have certain
views of trans individuals that are different than yours.
Maybe they don't know how to react.
Maybe their breathing has sloweddown.
Maybe they're holding their breath immediately when you
(23:40):
comment on someone's accessory, it says I see you and I like, I
like what you bring to the table.
And instantly that can change the narrative in terms of
relating to people at all different levels.
Agree. Absolutely.
So I know that I have talked a lot about why accessories are so
necessary, but I also want to give a couple of Nuggets in
(24:04):
terms of male to female transformation takeaways in
terms of rules for accessories. Because, and I'm just going to
pull this out of my head. I know I have a lot of notes for
this, but I want to be able to have our listeners take some
things away from this episode. And firstly, I want to mention
that there are a lot of people out there that love accessories,
(24:27):
but they're really, really intimidated by it.
It is so overwhelming to them that when they think about
incorporating accessories in their wardrobe, there's like a
level of anxiety. What I want to say is, let's
just slow it down a little. Start with pieces that you're
drawn to. Is it a necklace?
(24:48):
Is it a ring? Is it a bracelet?
Start with pieces that you're drawn to.
Then in your head, I want you toput it in a transformational
context, OK, I'm wearing this bracelet.
I really like it. I'm drawn to it.
It's beautiful. What is it doing for my
feminization? What is it doing?
(25:09):
So if you have a bracelet, is itdrawing the eye to the smallest
part of the wrist, or is it too tight and distracting?
Am I playing with it an annoyingway?
So I want you to think about it in a way that it can help you.
It can help you, right? So if you have a bracelet that
is not big enough, that is agitating you, that is not
(25:32):
helping your feminine presentation by wearing a
bracelet that is a little chunkier and larger, it is
creating balance and symmetry with the larger proportions that
you have on your body. So it is showcasing everything.
Same goes with a necklace. If you like this necklace and
you're drawn to it, but it's really small and really demure,
(25:55):
it's not going to have as much of an impact for the overall
outfit. It's going to get lost.
So really making sure that you're paying attention to
things like that, that you're drawn to things, you like them.
But how can I use that to feminize and transform my body?
If you have a larger midsection,for example, and maybe you're
(26:18):
more on the shorter end for the male, for the biological male
numbers, a longer necklace like a long Pearl necklace or a long
chain necklace or a long chain necklace with a stone on it that
you like that can make you look longer and taller and elongate
that torso area, making you lookmore slender.
(26:40):
OK, so if you're someone that loves accessories, I dare you to
put on all the things, all the things, you know, earrings,
bracelet, necklace, put on at least five things and then
remove two of the items. Because if you have the cocktail
rings and the large bracelet, it's not going to have the same
(27:03):
impact than if you focus just onthe heaviness of the ring and
take off that statement bracelet.
So editing is really important when it comes to accessories.
In terms of using accessories tofeminize masculine features like
we talked about with the breast forms, placing an intentional
(27:25):
choker or something that can minimize that Adam's apple, like
a necklace or a scarf, that's often a great idea.
Handbags, I said, are super important.
Again, making sure that you're paying attention to proportions.
So if you're a larger person, bringing an itty bitty purse may
(27:47):
not be the best choice in terms of creating an overall balance
for the overall look. Look, I get it.
When we go out and we're going out to the clubs or the bars,
sometimes we just want function.Sometimes a wristlet would do,
sometimes a little crossbody, sometimes with the right outfit,
a very thin wallet, like the kind that you see at Target that
(28:10):
only has your cards in it, that will do as well.
So I feel like just off the top of my head and with my 10 pages
of notes here as well as our sharing, I feel like I've given
the listeners enough informationto be able to have a better
understanding about accessories and their place in the world.
(28:32):
If ever you feel like you need more assistance than this
episode has to offer, I'm alwaysavailable to meet with me.
Whether it be for individual time or simply messaging, I'm
here to help. I think so often maybe listeners
are intimidated to approach us because we seem bigger than a
(28:54):
bigger entity because we're on apodcast.
But we are very much humans. We are very much accessible and
yeah, so reach out. I know that accessories is
something that can be a puzzle to many, and I hope that this
episode added some ingredients that can lessen that anxiety.
And to be fair, there is. You talked about the things you
(29:18):
love and you want to apply, you want to include in your ensemble
or your identity, even in the fact that one piece or whatever
that piece may be or pieces may not work together, may not work
with the dress, may work better with one dress versus another.
If you have a super chunky ring versus a very delicate bracelet,
those may not go together even if either of those pieces might
(29:40):
go with the outfit. You talked about body shape and
just like when we talk about like certain wigs flatter or
certain face types of face shapes, same thing applies to
dresses and body shapes. And the same thing applies to
application of accessories on that body shape.
As well as mentioning like a crossbody bag gives your hands
(30:01):
something to hold on to or rest on or distract you in a way that
you don't when you don't know what to do with your hands, like
you said. So this is a science as well as
a art. So if you're like you said,
Julie, people who may be a little overwhelmed by the idea
of what to do with the accessories that they love so
much, that's where you come in. Or you can assist in that
(30:24):
approach of oh, for you, right? This type of body, this type of
XYZ, these are the things that are going to flatter you most.
Because sometimes we all need objectivity, right?
Like we love the thing, but sometimes even though we love
the thing, it doesn't mean the application of The thing is
perfect in every case. Totally, and I'm all about a
(30:46):
statement, anything. So having one piece that you
love and having your clothes reflect that peace and honor
that peace. And actually the statement was
if you have a chunky ring and a chunky bracelet, that may be too
much chunk. So removing one of the items,
whether it be the rings or the bracelet.
(31:06):
But yes, you encapsulated everything that I was trying to
say here today. And I encourage people to
remember that accessories are fun and decorating ourselves is
joyful. All of these scarves and purses
and glasses and all these different types of things are
really delightful, delicious ingredients that we get to add
(31:31):
when it comes to our feminine presentation.
And dressing up is fun. Yes, it is.
And so I hope that everyone enjoyed this episode and yeah,
bye for now. Until next time, you can find me
on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing
(31:54):
and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK and to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hangar or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhangar.com.
(32:16):
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, Understanding
the feminine cross wrestling experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross wrestler,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker and author of the Living
with Cross Wrestling book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hello, Miss Rubenstein. Hi, Savannah.
So we are we ready for my show? I'm.
Ready, baby, I'm ready. I feel like suddenly a Lily
toblet and the giant big couch and I'm like, OK, playing with
my shoes. I'm going to do my share now,
(00:52):
OK? I love it.
So as I'm looking around my laptop, but the third item which
why start with the third? Why not start with the first?
You do it, girl. So the first accessory that
really was a game changer for mein terms of my identity, my
(01:15):
identity as a stylist, my identity as it relates to Fox
and Hanger is something that I discovered on Etsy and that's
these beautiful made with bone Savannah's nodding made with
bone Angel ear stretchers. It has a front part with the
(01:37):
piercing that goes into the ear and then the back part is this
gorgeous wing and for whatever. So when you put them on like an
earring, it gives the illusion that you have this little
stretch, this little gauge in your lobe.
That for me is to it's just enough edge for me.
And I've always been attracted to that gauge look, but I never
(02:00):
liked the idea of she take it off and then suddenly there's
this hole. I never liked that.
So for me this was so gorgeous and it gave me just enough edge
while it being such a soft and romantic kind of look.
It made me feel edgy and just the right way.
I used to really get off on going to more conservative
(02:22):
events because I definitely as aindividual, my kind of
socialization and my upbringing and all that stuff leans towards
more of a affluent crowd as wellas being this like total urgent
St. hippie. So whenever I can rock these,
it's something that is more conservative.
I always feel like I'm in perfect harmony and balance with
(02:45):
myself. This has been a trend since I
discovered it over 15 years ago.It's been my go to.
I can't think of any other earrings that I would rather
wear. Suddenly, all earrings,
including my very long period with the Jlo hoop, which lasted,
I don't know, over a decade. Thanks, Jlo.
It totally trumped that because I finally found something that
(03:08):
just felt like home to me. It felt like I was this fairy
and it was attached to my earlobe.
And I kind of been playing with this Angel wing and then I have
a version of a swan wing. And then this kind of front part
is more of a swan's head. And then a pair that you've seen
as well. And I've posted a lot of
pictures. They're made from this clay and
(03:31):
they're almost very, they're much more extreme and give that
look of artsiness, avant-garde Ness, which being avant-garde is
something that speaks to me in terms of a anesthetic.
And I love them. And yeah, I can't say enough
thank you, Etsy, for continuing to add the fake ear stretchers
(03:54):
to your repertoire. Whenever I search fake ear
stretcher earrings, look at this.
It's so me. I've almost never known you
without those. I mean, that was separating the
repertoire as long as I've knownyou.
And I did think they were ear stretchers.
But wait, she doesn't have a gauge hole 'cause I'm the same
way. I think it's fascinating to see
people with large gauge holes and sometimes they have the rims
(04:16):
inside to keep it open, but see people who would just, they
don't have anything in and kind of want to say flops.
It's a little loose. And so that's definitely not for
me. But yeah, to be able to do
something along those lines in avery full way and lean into that
edginess without sacrificing your biology of your earlobes
for it is pretty awesome. Yeah.
(04:36):
And I'll never forget so many years ago when Remy was so
little and I had taken my first several overnight trip away for
the first time. And I visited Kate.
We were just reconnecting and I had these, I had Angel wings
with the the front part. And at some part towards the end
of the trip, I revealed that they were an earring.
(04:58):
And she's like, oh, I would havetotally thought they were real.
And for whatever reason, the fact that she thought that I was
someone that could pull that offand get away with that, like
even though it's so obvious to me now and it's so obvious,
obvious to like people who know me that this is something that's
in alignment, it felt so cool tome.
(05:20):
I'm like, this is great. So yeah, I love these.
And they're always white and they're always just exquisite.
I just think they're exquisite. So that's one my favorite one.
The second one is about five years ago, there was like a lot
of awesome headbands on Amazon. I don't know what was happening
(05:43):
and maybe it had to do with my search engine, but definitely
they upped their game in terms of encrusted headbands that I
went through a huge encrusted headband phase.
If I'm going to move my head andyou can see like a bunch of
headbands behind me, I have oneswith pearls on them that are
black leather. I have ones that have
butterflies attached to them. But this is my favorite.
(06:05):
It reminds me of, it could be like a 1920s situation, like a
flapper. But yeah, this is all I'm going
to try to describe it to our listeners.
It's totally encrusted with whatlooks like several different
shapes of like fake diamonds. The top is circular.
(06:26):
The entire headband. It's very heavy to wear, right?
It's fucking heavy. Is it heavy or?
Sorry, so you go from super light faux earrings to the Super
heavy? Headband OK and I used to wear
this a lot when I would rock thehallways of the preschool, so to
speak and go out to restaurants as well in them.
(06:47):
And I often will for those listeners that have worked with
me and on a more consistent basis, I have definitely put it
on for a Zoom, but it could be heavy, you know, for Zoom when
you're sitting there with this. So I don't know, I feel like
those that can pull off a crown should, of course, and this
isn't like a crown crown. This is like a headband.
(07:10):
I mean those who can pull off certain things.
I mean, we're all Queens, so we all deserve a crown.
But look at this shiver and shine.
Yeah, that I know. People have seen that on your
social. Yeah.
It's your most epic of all your headbands that you have.
It's the widest. It's the most sparkly.
It's almost like a hat, it's so big.
Yes, and Speaking of hats. Uh oh.
(07:34):
Tell me. It's the talk to me that is the
third accessory. That is the item I just truly
love. Now above my closet are about 20
hats that are on the top top shelf that even on this Zoom
it's covered. But the hat that I came to
today, Savannah's nodding because you're like, Yep, the
(07:56):
old standby is this paperboy Newsies ass cat that I'll wear.
I should be wearing it. With this outfit, I'll often put
two pigtails on either end. Very cute.
And the fake ear stretchers and I just feel like it's so
masculine and I'm such a feminine being that it when I
(08:16):
wear it, it's perfection for me In terms of my style, other than
the fact that I had a crush on all the Newsies back in the day
on the Disney Channel, the cult classic.
I just love playing with men's masculine accessories and kind
of pieces. So this is definitely a favorite
(08:36):
pad of mine. And I don't have more than one
of this style. This one may disappear at some
point and then I'll find it one that is very similar.
But this has probably been a go to for let's just say 20 years.
Wow. That one specifically you've
had. I've had at least two or three
versions of this. Yeah, and it's Stewart's of
(09:00):
Scotland, Made in Scotland. Yes.
I will never go into a hat store.
I will always thrift store my hats.
So you'll never go to a haberdashery to get your
Scottish hats. Never, because I would be broke.
You'll be broke. I'll be broke like a joke.
Yes, so. But before we go, what type of
(09:23):
hat is that? I know you called it a newsy
hat, but what is the style of hat that?
Paperboy, I guess. It's called what I got.
I have to look this up. Picture like a cap picture.
This front part could have like a snap if you will.
It doesn't, does it? It does my give me God Sherlock
Holmes. I just unsnapped it.
(09:43):
I didn't know there was a snap here.
That's so fun. I don't think I'll ever wear it
this way, but I could look at this.
This is a different vibe. And you nailed it.
It's a news cap. With herring bone.
With herring bone. Herring bone prints that have
some light Browns in it as well as some blacks and some Blues.
(10:03):
Yeah, they've got all sorts of names to it.
Newsies. I mean, you nailed it.
They're called Newsies. And when and if I ever age out
of this look, you'll never just bronze this, OK?
Is that with a snap or without asnap?
Without the snap, there has a snap down.
OK. So one quick question before we
go on is how do you wear it? Do you wear with the snap in the
(10:25):
brim in the back? Do you wear in the front?
How do you wear it? I was about to literally reach
this computer and be like, we have to get through this
podcast. But that is actually a good
question. I do not wear it backwards,
although I may be able to pull that off.
This feels very 80s, yeah. This very Samuel Jackson Kanga.
(10:45):
Right. Personally, this isn't me.
The brim goes in the front and Itold you with the pig right with
with the buttons snapped. I didn't even know there was a
snap until literally 2 months ago which is already distracting
me. And then I often will do the
pigtails. I love it.
OK, yeah, I am not a hat person.I've tried hats.
I've gone as Savannah, two stores and look at the big
(11:08):
floppy hats or the the like. I'm going to the Kentucky Derby,
all the different styles and forwhatever reason, hat ain't for
me and don't work on my face. I don't know what it is, but
yeah. Literally, I am like sweating
now. That's how passionate I am about
hats. OK, I like the knitted hat,
which often used to come with the giant Jlo hoops.
(11:30):
I will wear that in the 90° heatas well as fall, winter, spring.
All you got to do is call, OK, and I'll be there.
Yes, I will. So then you got the the Chaplin
hat. I just like it all OK.
If I seem frustrated, it's because my love of hats could
take over important parts of this episode that we've all like
(11:53):
to move on. So we know that for Julie, a hat
is great. I love it.
Once I didn't wear it to the school I worked at, and people
said, you have hair. And I'm like, what?
Because that's totally contradictory to the fact that
the other thing I spend the mosttime and money on is making sure
that my red hair is up to speed.That's right.
(12:14):
OK, so moving right along, should we add a quote as a
palette cleanser of? Course.
OK, so this is from Olivia Faye Marie Walcott, my tattooed
choker that is one of the first things I bought when I came out
that are my estrogen molecule earrings.
(12:36):
Beautiful. Love that answer.
Let's just reel it back in, people.
And before I get into like tips and tricks, which I know that
that's probably what the peoplesare aching for, I'm just going
to let you know and I'm going tounearth the idea about why a
podcast on accessories is so necessary.
(12:58):
OK. So, so maybe to just change
things up, you can just ask me like ask me that question like
why is it podcast on accessoriesso necessary?
All right, let me. What's my motivation?
OK, hold on one second. So, Julie?
Yes. I have a question for you.
Please. I'd love that we did our top
three amazing accessories, but why is it so important to talk
(13:21):
on a podcast about accessories? Like why are you meaning?
Like why is it so necessary? Yes, absolutely.
That is such a good question. OK, so when it comes to male,
what are you laughing at? Me I've.
Laughing since silly, OK? When it comes to male to female
transformation, I mean, I have acouple reasons why they're so
(13:44):
important, why this is so necessary.
The first thing I want to talk about is accessories in terms of
transformational tools. When it comes to
transformational tools and thinking about accessories, how
we use accessories can often shift how someone is perceived
as well as how they feel in their body in terms of their
(14:07):
feminine presentation, in terms of coming off maybe less
intimidating in a social situation, in terms of helping
create an illusion. For example, if you're wearing a
breastplate, depending on where the seam begins, some people
have a seam that hits right below the neck.
(14:30):
Some people have a seam that hits lower or above the neck
right at choker level. By adding a choker or adding a
necklace that hits right above that seam, you are creating an
illusion for someone that says that this is a feminine being
from head to toe. You are not having a moment
(14:52):
where if someone stares at you, suddenly you've broken the
illusion because they're right, their eyes immediately drawn, or
you're thinking in their head. Oh God, I feel so exposed to
that, to a part of my flesh thatis not attached to my body, if
you will. So accessories like a necklace
can totally mask that feeling ofbeing self-conscious or that
(15:15):
visual cue. In terms of creating this total
feminine illusion. Accessories can be extremely
affirming. For example, we talked about a
little earlier earrings. There's something about the
weight of earrings that can be very affirming.
Even if they hurt a little bit. That pain is almost like a good
(15:36):
pain for many people in terms ofthe female experience and
embodying that in the same way that shoes heels.
If you're in heels for too long,some people that are new to this
practice or some people that areshoe people can really get down
and feel totally within the female experience of that pain
(15:58):
that comes from rocking a reallyamazing pair of shoes for an
extended amount of time. I see you nodding.
Is there anything you'd like to add to that?
We've had episodes about how we think that heels and then my
heels have gone lower over the years.
But the whole idea that the heelaccentuates the legs and the
(16:19):
calves and the buttocks, and it really does just allow that line
of femininity from a profile standpoint really accentuate
itself based on having the arc to the foot, having so much of
the balance now on the back of the heel.
And it really does do a lot to make it happen.
So we will suffer through because we don't want to break
(16:39):
the illusion. Yeah.
And that the entire transformational experience, if
we were to look at accessories as powerful tools, we can think
about the heels, right? Depending on the height of the
heels like you were just talkingabout, it creates an entirely
different way of moving when it comes to embodying that feminine
(17:04):
expression. If we were to think about a
belt, right? Placing a belt at the smallest
part of your waist is especiallyeffective when you're wearing an
A line dress and a line skirt orsomething that is even more of a
body con or something to put right on top of a peplum waist
(17:24):
skirt or dress. Going back to the kind of
straight shift dress or something that doesn't that goes
straight down, is more rectangular or holds to your
body. If you don't have the curves, a
belt will give you an instant waste.
It will create this hourglass look that adds a certain curve
(17:45):
that wouldn't be there if you didn't use that accessory as a
tool when it comes to let's say a purse, a crossbody purse, a
shoulder purse. That is actually something, and
I teach this a lot when individuals go through this
femininity program that Ioffer is being able to use a purse to
(18:08):
help and assist your body language.
For example, if it's a crossbodybag, if for some reason
something about the crossbody bag, it minimizes A broader
barrelly rib area, stomach area.It also pushes the shoulders
back. And you're able to place your
hands in a way that if you utilize this and don't forget it
(18:32):
and really listen to this part of the podcast, it can really
help in terms of feminizing yourwhole body.
Knowing what to do with my hands.
I mean, that's important if you're going somewhere and if
you're taking the step to go outand fem, what do I do with my
hands? Well, a purse is a great place
to put that. OK, so the second reason why I
(18:53):
feel that accessories are so important is when it comes to
confidence and when it comes to empowerment.
It can really bring you a great sense of fulfillment and
confidence and empowerment. If you step out with an
accessory that you love, it can be used as a connective tissue
(19:15):
to have a conversation with someone.
Oh, I really like that necklace.Thank you, you know this is the
story behind this or it was given to me by my wife or thank
you. I saw it on Etsy.
It, it can break someone out of their shell in terms of
communication when someone is stepping out or how to connect
to people. It's almost more likely that
(19:36):
someone, especially when you're sitting together in a social
situation, is going to be drawn to a piece of jewelry rather
than maybe an overall wardrobe. Paul, an overall dress, it helps
you focus in. And if your dress does, if your
accessory, excuse me, does have a special meaning, that's your
chance to share. Oh I got this charm bracelet and
(20:00):
I asked all my friends to get mea charm for my birthday that
relates to our friendship. Or something they love about me.
It connects people and it creates a level of confidence,
especially for those newbie crossdressers that are stepping
out into the world for the firsttime.
Anyone can get dressed with clothes, but being able to
figure out how to wear accessories, how to honor
(20:23):
accessories, it feels to the person observing you like they
put a little more effort into it, into their presentation.
Now imagine that if you are putting that effort into your
presentation and you feel it's successful and know it to be
successful for you, then that's only going to enable and ignite
all the other intangible things about your presentation and
(20:46):
heighten those things because you are so confident in the
things you are adding on to the vistage who you are.
Right. For many people, in terms of
their first gender affirming procedure, getting your ears
pierced, that being something that this came up this week
around piercing someone's ears like that.
(21:07):
Not only providing that confidence and that empowerment,
but that gender affirming care that is important and often
overlooked. So accessories can celebrate
inclusivity and accessibility. Now we are far past the illusion
where accessories have to be forthe Richie Rich.
(21:29):
They have to be expensive accessories to be effective.
You can get them on Amazon, you can get them from a friend, you
can get them at thrift stores. And so that's something that I
want everyone to really be able to understand that anyone can
access accessories, especially now where there's so much online
(21:49):
fashion, there's like excess items.
Yeah, yeah. The idea or the time of costume
jewelry being gaudy is past now.Costume jewelry could be very
sought after with Judy resellingcostume jewelry.
Oh my. Really?
Who's going to buy that? But there's some Coventry and
other brands or other manufacturers, a costume jewelry
(22:12):
that's really sought after in the market.
So it's in and of itself has become a positive thing that
it's sought after and people love to wear and look good
wearing it. Totally.
So that's inclusivity and accessibility.
We had mentioned when it comes to the transformation, the
confidence, empowerment, that storytelling and engagement,
(22:34):
those two ideas are really huge when it comes to accessories.
I met my best friend because shecomplimented me on my ring.
Hey, I like your ring. Even though come to find out,
she didn't like the ring. She was just trying to strike up
a conversation. So it can be someone's ticket to
make a connection with someone that maybe they wouldn't talk to
(22:57):
normally because they're pullingat straws and they're saying,
you know, and that can be a really amazing bridge when it
comes to communicating with CIS women or, you know, making
people feel comfortable. Everyone loves a compliment.
Everyone loves a compliment. So extend that kindness to
(23:18):
someone and say, hey, I really like that ring.
And immediately that is going tochange the energy flow from
someone that may be in their experience, they have certain
views of trans individuals that are different than yours.
Maybe they don't know how to react.
Maybe their breathing has sloweddown.
Maybe they're holding their breath immediately when you
(23:40):
comment on someone's accessory, it says I see you and I like, I
like what you bring to the table.
And instantly that can change the narrative in terms of
relating to people at all different levels.
Agree. Absolutely.
So I know that I have talked a lot about why accessories are so
necessary, but I also want to give a couple of Nuggets in
(24:04):
terms of male to female transformation takeaways in
terms of rules for accessories. Because, and I'm just going to
pull this out of my head. I know I have a lot of notes for
this, but I want to be able to have our listeners take some
things away from this episode. And firstly, I want to mention
that there are a lot of people out there that love accessories,
(24:27):
but they're really, really intimidated by it.
It is so overwhelming to them that when they think about
incorporating accessories in their wardrobe, there's like a
level of anxiety. What I want to say is, let's
just slow it down a little. Start with pieces that you're
drawn to. Is it a necklace?
(24:48):
Is it a ring? Is it a bracelet?
Start with pieces that you're drawn to.
Then in your head, I want you toput it in a transformational
context, OK, I'm wearing this bracelet.
I really like it. I'm drawn to it.
It's beautiful. What is it doing for my
feminization? What is it doing?
(25:09):
So if you have a bracelet, is itdrawing the eye to the smallest
part of the wrist, or is it too tight and distracting?
Am I playing with it an annoyingway?
So I want you to think about it in a way that it can help you.
It can help you, right? So if you have a bracelet that
is not big enough, that is agitating you, that is not
(25:32):
helping your feminine presentation by wearing a
bracelet that is a little chunkier and larger, it is
creating balance and symmetry with the larger proportions that
you have on your body. So it is showcasing everything.
Same goes with a necklace. If you like this necklace and
you're drawn to it, but it's really small and really demure,
(25:55):
it's not going to have as much of an impact for the overall
outfit. It's going to get lost.
So really making sure that you're paying attention to
things like that, that you're drawn to things, you like them.
But how can I use that to feminize and transform my body?
If you have a larger midsection,for example, and maybe you're
(26:18):
more on the shorter end for the male, for the biological male
numbers, a longer necklace like a long Pearl necklace or a long
chain necklace or a long chain necklace with a stone on it that
you like that can make you look longer and taller and elongate
that torso area, making you lookmore slender.
(26:40):
OK, so if you're someone that loves accessories, I dare you to
put on all the things, all the things, you know, earrings,
bracelet, necklace, put on at least five things and then
remove two of the items. Because if you have the cocktail
rings and the large bracelet, it's not going to have the same
(27:03):
impact than if you focus just onthe heaviness of the ring and
take off that statement bracelet.
So editing is really important when it comes to accessories.
In terms of using accessories tofeminize masculine features like
we talked about with the breast forms, placing an intentional
(27:25):
choker or something that can minimize that Adam's apple, like
a necklace or a scarf, that's often a great idea.
Handbags, I said, are super important.
Again, making sure that you're paying attention to proportions.
So if you're a larger person, bringing an itty bitty purse may
(27:47):
not be the best choice in terms of creating an overall balance
for the overall look. Look, I get it.
When we go out and we're going out to the clubs or the bars,
sometimes we just want function.Sometimes a wristlet would do,
sometimes a little crossbody, sometimes with the right outfit,
a very thin wallet, like the kind that you see at Target that
(28:10):
only has your cards in it, that will do as well.
So I feel like just off the top of my head and with my 10 pages
of notes here as well as our sharing, I feel like I've given
the listeners enough informationto be able to have a better
understanding about accessories and their place in the world.
(28:32):
If ever you feel like you need more assistance than this
episode has to offer, I'm alwaysavailable to meet with me.
Whether it be for individual time or simply messaging, I'm
here to help. I think so often maybe listeners
are intimidated to approach us because we seem bigger than a
(28:54):
bigger entity because we're on apodcast.
But we are very much humans. We are very much accessible and
yeah, so reach out. I know that accessories is
something that can be a puzzle to many, and I hope that this
episode added some ingredients that can lessen that anxiety.
And to be fair, there is. You talked about the things you
(29:18):
love and you want to apply, you want to include in your ensemble
or your identity, even in the fact that one piece or whatever
that piece may be or pieces may not work together, may not work
with the dress, may work better with one dress versus another.
If you have a super chunky ring versus a very delicate bracelet,
those may not go together even if either of those pieces might
(29:40):
go with the outfit. You talked about body shape and
just like when we talk about like certain wigs flatter or
certain face types of face shapes, same thing applies to
dresses and body shapes. And the same thing applies to
application of accessories on that body shape.
As well as mentioning like a crossbody bag gives your hands
(30:01):
something to hold on to or rest on or distract you in a way that
you don't when you don't know what to do with your hands, like
you said. So this is a science as well as
a art. So if you're like you said,
Julie, people who may be a little overwhelmed by the idea
of what to do with the accessories that they love so
much, that's where you come in. Or you can assist in that
(30:24):
approach of oh, for you, right? This type of body, this type of
XYZ, these are the things that are going to flatter you most.
Because sometimes we all need objectivity, right?
Like we love the thing, but sometimes even though we love
the thing, it doesn't mean the application of The thing is
perfect in every case. Totally, and I'm all about a
(30:46):
statement, anything. So having one piece that you
love and having your clothes reflect that peace and honor
that peace. And actually the statement was
if you have a chunky ring and a chunky bracelet, that may be too
much chunk. So removing one of the items,
whether it be the rings or the bracelet.
(31:06):
But yes, you encapsulated everything that I was trying to
say here today. And I encourage people to
remember that accessories are fun and decorating ourselves is
joyful. All of these scarves and purses
and glasses and all these different types of things are
really delightful, delicious ingredients that we get to add
(31:31):
when it comes to our feminine presentation.
And dressing up is fun. Yes, it is.
And so I hope that everyone enjoyed this episode and yeah,
bye for now. Until next time, you can find me
on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing
(31:54):
and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK and to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hangar or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhangar.com.
(32:16):
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
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