October 8, 2025 • 25 mins
In this episode, Savannah regales Julie with a true story of several significant others of gender expansive husbands who just want to be more involved and be able to share more in the experiences they enjoyed together.But, how does a spouse both share conversation and pictures from a all-femme outing when they still want to protect hemselves and their partner through their already-existing CIS social media? Best idea ... the significant ones can create their own social media alter ego to let loose with their partner, enjoyed shared friends and experiences, and experiment outside the "norm".
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Hi, Julie, How are you today?
I'm very good. You know, it's beautiful out.
I've gotten a lot of sleep this weekend.
(00:48):
I realized that's the secret to my productivity.
I think with Fox and Hanger, notalways.
Like I realized with my business, I can't really make a
blanket statement because there are definitely weekends where
Kate and I are hustling back andforth.
Her other jobs are at Bay 'causeit's the weekend and we're just
like, I call it, playing tennis,e-mail, back and forth and back
(01:10):
and forth and back and forth. But there does come times on the
weekend where I just maybe I'm unreachable, maybe I just just
unplug for a little bit and I just give myself permission to
prepare for the week ahead and not do said work because I just
know that the caseload coming upis just, it's a lot.
(01:33):
And yeah, as much as I feel likeI am definitely a workaholic
when it comes to my business, itis the passion and the effort
and all that and something that I have a lot of trouble walking
away from. I realized that boundaries are
very necessary, especially when it comes to doing work that is
so all-encompassing and you wantto show up for people and you
(01:56):
want to show up for yourself, being the best version of
yourself. Sometimes I need to give myself
a time out, if you will, and just say no.
Chastise yourself in the best way.
You're being put in a corner fora good reason, right?
I hear you. Yesterday I slept till 11:00 AM
local time and Judy was already up.
(02:18):
Actually, to be fair, I was up at, I don't know, like 5:30 with
the dogs. And then I made Judy her coffee
and then I'm like, I'm going back to bed.
And I went back to bed. Judy got up and she left the
room all together. It's like I'm letting him sleep.
I'm going downstairs and I slepttill almost afternoon.
And so I said, hey, I'm up. I'm sure she knew I was up at
(02:39):
11. So we'll do breakfast another
time. Then I'm like, no, I'm still
getting for breakfast. Breakfast is anytime, baby.
So so we went out, we got ourselves some breakfast and we
saw one of the servers, Heather,she hasn't seen us in four
months because Judy was away. So we got to reconnect with her
and got some lovely breakfast. And then today and yesterday I
(03:02):
went out and did some editing. I'm doing the listening to an AI
narrator narrate my book back tome and I'm actually finding more
errors. So I'm correcting now.
So to between today and yesterday I got 4550 pages
reread re listen to. Cool.
Awesome. Thank you.
And that's coming along. It seems like an endless,
(03:23):
endless thing. And there will be one point
where I'm going to be like, all right, well you're done.
I need to kick you out of the nest.
I think I'm close to that on thefirst book because again, I
could just keep rewriting it forever.
No longer you have it no longer want to re edit it and rewrite
it. So it did that yesterday, today,
today before you and I got together, Quick note, as I'm
sitting in a Starbucks, there was a couple, I'm assuming they
(03:44):
have a couple. There was a man and a woman,
young, youngish, maybe early 20s.
And they're sitting next to me and they're reading passages
from the Bible and discussing what the passage means.
I don't know how I feel about itbecause it's one of those
passages is like the woman must honor the man and the man is the
head of the household and the man is the husband is close to
God. And I just sat there half
(04:06):
listening to my book being read to me and half of listening to
him tell her what it means, thispassage from the Bible.
And I'm like exactly ick. I felt a lot of ick about it.
And again, I don't want to talk I'll of anybody who's a devout
Christian or follows the Bible. But when I heard that being
(04:27):
said, and I think it was worse because he said that the woman
must follow the husband and for some reason him declaring it to
her in the Scripture reading, I don't know, was really
problematic for me and my feels.I was having all the feels about
it. I'm like, I do not adopt that
feeling or how life should be inthe 21st century at all.
(04:49):
And I told Judy about it and shesays said the same thing that
you did. And but she also said, hey, if
that equity goes both ways, thatthe woman follows the husband
and the husband follows the woman, and both are equal, then
yes. Otherwise, no, because otherwise
you're just property and chatteland second citizens.
(05:11):
Yeah. So that happened today and I was
just having all sorts of feelings about it.
Totally, totally, but. This episode.
Yes. Which is that kind of ironic
because now that I stopped and just was about ready to pose the
transition this Segway, if you will, I realize that what I just
said is exactly what this is about.
And what this is about is how our significant others can have
(05:35):
equality when it comes to the cross dressing, gender diverse,
gender expansive husbands or partners.
And I'll back up a second because the story really
germinates from the Atlantic conference and all the lovely
couples that I reconnected with or was able to connect with or
even new ones I've never met before.
There is now a core group of couples that I speak to on the
(05:58):
regular and we were going through like share that photo
with me, share this photo from when we were at the gala, share
this. We were in a courtyard.
We were pushing photos back and forth between our text message
thread. But there was also this idea.
It's like, man, what's your Facebook?
I'll just send it there and I'llput, is it OK if I post this?
(06:19):
Is it OK if I do that? Can I tag you, etcetera,
etcetera. And knowing that we all have
very protective personal metricsabout how we appear in the
world, most of the S OS we're like, well, I only have my
Facebook account. So we had a whole conversation
about creating alter egos for the SO where the SO can come up
(06:42):
with their secret double secret handshake name that is nowhere
close to the real Facebook. They could keep it separate.
They can start enjoying being tagged or tagging pictures or
being a part of a group Facebookpost wise or Facebook account
wise that they can now share with their partners.
(07:03):
That family dynamic or that couple dynamic can maintain
itself because now they have these accounts with these cool
names that they come up with forthemselves.
Now they can be a part of thingsversus like don't share that
with me because I don't want thenormal folk quote UN quote.
Right. To find out or anything that
cross pollination to happen. Right, kind of like your friend
(07:27):
Panda. Panda is the significant other,
right? Yes, the biological female,
correct. So just having the name Panda,
this was, this is months and months and maybe years ahead of
the conversation we're having now.
But that's an example of a significant other that's showing
up for their spouse and showing up in equality for this topic, I
(07:52):
think. Yeah, absolutely.
Everything is said. And ironically, she was not the
genesis of this specific topic, but yeah.
Sure not, but that's an example of how she has yes, shown up.
She definitely made her mark. Fathers to follow, I'd say.
And Judy did the same thing years ago when with Judy Hawk to
(08:12):
be able to that we could friend request each other and she could
be part of that and like things and comment on things without it
being you have to be within the friend group in order to even be
invited to the friend group. But otherwise you're going to be
on the outside. And especially when most of us
keep our Facebook accounts private or you only can see it
if you're a friend of a friend or what.
(08:34):
How? However you have a set up, we
don't leave it typically wide open for people to find or at
least friend request wise you. You have to know somebody who's
already on the inside. Which is why it's so hard for me
to vet. I get friend requests for people
who are friendly to other people, and if that person has
invented that person, I have to now vet that person.
And I we've talked about this before where I have to list of
(08:56):
five things I check before I sayyes.
I'll just decline people out of the blue if it's even 10%
suspect. I'd.
Rather not invite that into my world if you will.
So what are your thoughts on this?
Well, I think that it's really interesting and it definitely
has my mind on loop and then thinking about all the
possibilities and it brings up alot of questions like when it
(09:18):
comes to the alter egos for the significant others, would it be
a masculine situation? Like would it be them?
Like immediately that's what came to mind in my head.
Would they be assuming a cross dressing situation where
suddenly their alter ego is a man, right?
So that that's instantly what mymind went to.
(09:40):
And then I settled into the ideaof no, it could just be like a a
femme, A femme alter ego that's superhero esque or a high femme
badass version of themselves, analter ego like you said.
But yeah, do you think it's great?
I think that like you said before, it can get confusing
when it comes to friend requestsbecause it can be sloppy and
(10:02):
protection and safety is very important for obvious reasons.
I know that you have had a lot of Zoom slip UPS.
It happens when it comes to the delicate nature of putting
yourself out there and putting yourself out there in community,
especially with something like social media where for example,
I, I don't think I'm even friends with Chuck on Facebook,
(10:26):
which in the beginning it felt weirdish because I was friends
with both. And so just settling into the
different algorithms and all theways that this can look, I think
it's a great idea. Yeah.
And I love what you just said because the first thing I would
say in response to you're not Facebook friends who checked
them like one, you wouldn't really need to.
And for a couple of reasons, I rarely post on my Chuck side.
(10:49):
So like anybody that I knew fromhigh school or anybody that's a
cousin, if I'm posting once a year, that's probably more than
I typically do. Whereas what the work you and I
do and the friendship you and I have and developed is all
Savannah centric. And while yes, Chuck is a lovely
person and you love him just as much as he loves Savannah,
(11:09):
although maybe Savannah a littlebit more, the work that we do is
centered around Savannah and that's where I do my most work
online because I'm really not a social media person in general.
It's the fact that I have 6 different Facebook accounts for
all the things that you and I are doing and all all the things
that Chuck does. It's a lot.
It's a lot to manage and I don'tmanage you well, honestly more
(11:32):
than a couple of the accounts. And that's mostly living with
Cross Dressing Fox in the Phoenix that you and I share and
work on together in Savannah's account whereas Chuck's size.
Hey listen, you might want to dust this off a little bit and
post something. Right, of course.
And I think that there's been post pandemic, a giant wave of
(11:53):
fatigue when it comes to this kind of stuff.
And just the fact that fairly recently you had a conversation
with the company you keep when it comes to finding a space for
significant others to feel like they can cross post in the safe
space. I think it's wonderful.
And I think it gives some freshness to something that, you
(12:14):
know, we've all been, I know, I think we've as a collective,
we've since the start of this podcast, you know, we've been
trying to figure about a space or a place or a planet or
mentality or a connected something where significant
others can feel like they can show up to the table with equal
(12:34):
voice and equal community. And I think that this is just a
perfect example with a level of safety at in terms of who you're
adding in terms of friends, a level of safety and a level of
confidence when it comes to the fact that, you know, my spouse
has an alter ego that is this feminine version that is very
(12:56):
different from their biology myself, as their spouse also can
and does have this alter ego side to myself where I'm more
powerful than the other version of myself.
Or a more, more queer, more accepting, more, more, more,
more, whatever it is, less closeted, less hiding, less
(13:18):
shameful. I think there's something to it.
Yeah, especially from the protective point of view,
protecting yourself from the other social circles that you
have, whether it be family, work, friends and to keep that
protective sphere enclosed and easier to manage versus having
that cross pollination. It was very interesting.
(13:40):
I mean, I love the idea of that fierce goddess version of
themselves. And there was conversation
about, hey, you should do this the same way that we did it.
Find your different name and usea drag formula of first pet in
the street you grew up on. And there was a whole text
(14:02):
thread of people trying that on and we were just having silly
times of there were pretty roughnames in there, but there was
some really good names for the spouses.
I'm like, man, I wish I had grown up on that street and had
that path because that's an amazing drag name.
Only one of the three partners followed through.
(14:22):
They did pick based on a lot of our conversation and they opened
up a new Facebook account so they can manage it and be able
to share. So that was fun and hopefully
the others feel comfortable and confident enough to do the same.
No pressure, obviously, but the idea of you know what?
Why is it that my partners gets to have this alter ego in this
(14:42):
whole other life and I'm just sitting here as a hanger on
around your coattails. I want to have my own identity.
I want to do my own thing. I want to be fierce and amazing
extra in the best ways. So the idea that like you said
earlier, yeah, do that and come up with that fiercest goddess
most. Elevated version.
Yeah, just that most amazing part that you can't do
(15:05):
day-to-day. Obviously none of us are doing
it day-to-day, but just if I tapinto that, it will show off.
Yeah, I think that everybody should have that opportunity,
not just the male to female partner who's had to do that as
a requisite of even being online.
Yeah, I like that very much. And what happens often, I think
what I think about it in terms of my name and names that people
(15:28):
have called me in terms of closefriends like, you know, Jewels
or Foxy or Ruby, just certain names that definitely speak to
me at these different higher levels of understanding.
What ends up happening is when people get really comfortable
calling you that name and when the name isn't so far from the
person you are or that name becomes a part of your identity
(15:52):
in this bigger and bigger and bigger, bigger way.
It's almost like that birth nameor that other name to which you
came to this planet with becomes, I don't want to say
null and void, but just becomes a name that the other people
call you, the people that aren'tin the know of your
fabulousness, if you will. I can definitely relate to that
(16:15):
idea that there's this elevated version of you For people in the
community, that's the name that they know you to be, and that's
the name that they call you as. I had a friend that was still my
friend that was and is in the Poly community and developed a
totally different name from the name they were born with.
(16:36):
And that name, it became so muchtheir name.
It's almost very weird for me orother close people around them
to call them as they're different name.
It's almost like one of those things when you're getting in
trouble by your parents, they use the full name and you're
like, oh shit, you know what I mean?
And so it's very interesting being friends with this person.
(16:58):
I met them as this other name, this other version of the name,
from what I realized, that they go by this whole other different
name, let's say at work or whatever.
I always find it very interesting that, Oh yeah, they
have this entirely different name that they're called at work
or whatever it is. And the two names seem to be
just, I don't know, like T-shirts you put on.
(17:18):
There's like casual Fridays and then there's like all the other
day. So yeah, it's, I think there's
something really powerful to a name and link you a name with an
identity that represents your highest good or your most
selfless self. I love it.
Yeah. Thank you for that.
(17:39):
That's I think even beyond what is happening in this case or in
this story. I want everybody to just lean
into this most amazing well of fierceness and amazingness.
I think in this case, this is less about creating a
full-fledged identity because these are people who are I just
want to do some on Facebook withmy partner and be a part of that
(18:02):
world. But if we but if it when we
meet, we're not going to be using their alter ego names when
we're saying hi and getting together and just having
conversation and going places. We're going to use their normal
everyday birth name kind of thing.
So there's that divide for me, Savannah, if I'm dressed as
Savannah, if I am posting, yes, Savannah is going to be using
(18:26):
the Savannah count is that couldbe Chuck and vice versa.
Whereas all these people are still going to come to the table
in their authenticity as the person they know themselves to
be. So in this case, while Savannah
is my identity, for these ladies, these CIS women who are
trying to be a part of their partners lives, they're just
(18:46):
coming up with names so they cancreate an account and just be a
part of it, but not actually usethat in real life, even when we
are together. So disconnect to it.
But I would love to see them saying all of a sudden there
come the table with like, Oh my God, you don't usually dress
that way. No, but I'm so and so today I
think it'd be fun. I think it would be fun to do
(19:08):
that. Just have fun with this either
cosplay or I'm just going to dress up in this certain manner,
present myself, which, like you said at the beginning, that's
what Violet did. You know, she said I'm coming as
panda and she had the panda energy and that was her motif.
And it wasn't until two years later I.
Was going to say, who's Violet? Well.
Finally, it was her second different name, so it took me
(19:30):
two years before I realized whather real name was, which I'm
still not going to use in this podcast.
Now I know there's three names and I only I know one of them is
her true name, God-given name orparent given name?
Wait, what's your real name? It took me a long time to get
that settled. It is funny in that way that I
can see how difficult it could be for our partners to adjust to
(19:52):
our Feb names when they've only written our male names for so
long. This is a funny and fun and
really kooky exercise, I think, for many of our partners.
I would love for all of them to have just a blast with it, just
to do it, but not necessarily feel like they need to now show
up in that guise if that's not what they want to do.
(20:14):
Yeah, just it's all sorts of things going on.
And I just think if people can say, you know what, I'm going to
fun with this and see what happens, and I think they can
enjoy it from that front. Yeah, I think that I think this
topic is great because like I said at the beginning, when it
was presented to me, I immediately went to the cross
dressing side instantly and not to the side of the significant
other, creating a heightened femme version of their already
(20:36):
biological femme name. I came up with the oh, with
their cross dressing name BQ or Chad or Sean.
Instantly I went to that place which I think for any of the
listeners that you know went there.
Me too, Yeah. I think that it could be a lot
of different things than one. I could.
(20:56):
I think that it could be like a library card.
We were like, this is my librarycard to get into the chat or to
get into the metaverse, so to speak.
We can share photos and all this.
And it can also be a little bit of exploration a little bit and
say with this name, where can I go with this?
(21:18):
I'm curious or like you said, like showing up with, if you had
a superpower, what would it be? But Ed showing up in this kind
of high def version, It can be both those things when it comes
to creativity and when it comes to play and the imagination.
There's no real bookend. It's your library card.
It's an awesome way to share photos and it could be just that
(21:41):
and that's amazing. That's great.
And I think that right now, humanity is really of a revamp.
It's really in need of that special sauce, that magic, that
imagination that's needed. I think right now there's a lot
of push and pull when it comes to all these different ways that
(22:03):
we're just trying to be a good person.
We're just trying to stand in equality with our partner.
That's all we're trying to do. But also, wow, in doing that,
there's a part of me that needs to be nurtured and put it on
high def a little bit and have alittle fun with it.
Or you know that there's a lot of ways in which standing in
(22:24):
equality with your cross dressing partner can look.
And so I think this is great. And one more thing I'll say in
the conclusion sparked based on what you just said is this could
allow the partners to take center stage as well.
One of the things I think is oneof those those little gotchas
between partners when we lead these separate lives is one,
(22:47):
that don't feel included, so they feel like maybe not knowing
what's happening. And two, it's not always your
partner that needs to be center stage.
You, you could be center stage. We talked about that what 5-6
episodes ago about we can share the limelight.
And this is just another way we can share the limelight or they
can share the limelight. And also, like I said, be that
(23:07):
high def person and they can post something, be like, look at
me and we all can validate each other and put everybody up.
The tide rises, all ships and wecan raise everybody up at the in
the same way and let them shine as well.
There's not always just about us.
Look at me, I posted something yay like this, like that
comment. It's also a way for our partners
(23:28):
to be and also take that center stage and be that person in the
one way. Yes, I agree.
I agree, this was great. Yeah, I think so.
And I thought it was cute. Nice little light vampy episode
we could come to the table with.Yeah.
And I would, I'm very curious, dear listeners, what you think
about this topic. And please flood the comment
(23:50):
section with all the different ways that you connect with this
topic and if it brings things up, if you have questions,
because that's to me, the only way that we can continue to
bring attention to significant others, bring awareness, be in
celebration. Love is through talking about it
and continuing the conversation.So, yeah, I think that this was
(24:11):
a great episode and thank you somuch for bringing it to the
table. So like always, we have, well,
not always. Sometimes we don't, but usually
we have a new episode every Wednesday.
And please like and share and spread the word of the Fox and
the Phoenix. Our greatest form of promotion
(24:34):
is through the share button every week.
So yeah, do more of that. And we appreciate all you.
We love all of you. I love you so much, Savannah I.
Love you as well. I love you a lot, so bye for
now. Until next time, you can find me
(24:55):
on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing
and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK and to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hanger or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhanger.com.
(25:22):
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Hi, Julie, How are you today?
I'm very good. You know, it's beautiful out.
I've gotten a lot of sleep this weekend.
(00:48):
I realized that's the secret to my productivity.
I think with Fox and Hanger, notalways.
Like I realized with my business, I can't really make a
blanket statement because there are definitely weekends where
Kate and I are hustling back andforth.
Her other jobs are at Bay 'causeit's the weekend and we're just
like, I call it, playing tennis,e-mail, back and forth and back
(01:10):
and forth and back and forth. But there does come times on the
weekend where I just maybe I'm unreachable, maybe I just just
unplug for a little bit and I just give myself permission to
prepare for the week ahead and not do said work because I just
know that the caseload coming upis just, it's a lot.
(01:33):
And yeah, as much as I feel likeI am definitely a workaholic
when it comes to my business, itis the passion and the effort
and all that and something that I have a lot of trouble walking
away from. I realized that boundaries are
very necessary, especially when it comes to doing work that is
so all-encompassing and you wantto show up for people and you
(01:56):
want to show up for yourself, being the best version of
yourself. Sometimes I need to give myself
a time out, if you will, and just say no.
Chastise yourself in the best way.
You're being put in a corner fora good reason, right?
I hear you. Yesterday I slept till 11:00 AM
local time and Judy was already up.
(02:18):
Actually, to be fair, I was up at, I don't know, like 5:30 with
the dogs. And then I made Judy her coffee
and then I'm like, I'm going back to bed.
And I went back to bed. Judy got up and she left the
room all together. It's like I'm letting him sleep.
I'm going downstairs and I slepttill almost afternoon.
And so I said, hey, I'm up. I'm sure she knew I was up at
(02:39):
11. So we'll do breakfast another
time. Then I'm like, no, I'm still
getting for breakfast. Breakfast is anytime, baby.
So so we went out, we got ourselves some breakfast and we
saw one of the servers, Heather,she hasn't seen us in four
months because Judy was away. So we got to reconnect with her
and got some lovely breakfast. And then today and yesterday I
(03:02):
went out and did some editing. I'm doing the listening to an AI
narrator narrate my book back tome and I'm actually finding more
errors. So I'm correcting now.
So to between today and yesterday I got 4550 pages
reread re listen to. Cool.
Awesome. Thank you.
And that's coming along. It seems like an endless,
(03:23):
endless thing. And there will be one point
where I'm going to be like, all right, well you're done.
I need to kick you out of the nest.
I think I'm close to that on thefirst book because again, I
could just keep rewriting it forever.
No longer you have it no longer want to re edit it and rewrite
it. So it did that yesterday, today,
today before you and I got together, Quick note, as I'm
sitting in a Starbucks, there was a couple, I'm assuming they
(03:44):
have a couple. There was a man and a woman,
young, youngish, maybe early 20s.
And they're sitting next to me and they're reading passages
from the Bible and discussing what the passage means.
I don't know how I feel about itbecause it's one of those
passages is like the woman must honor the man and the man is the
head of the household and the man is the husband is close to
God. And I just sat there half
(04:06):
listening to my book being read to me and half of listening to
him tell her what it means, thispassage from the Bible.
And I'm like exactly ick. I felt a lot of ick about it.
And again, I don't want to talk I'll of anybody who's a devout
Christian or follows the Bible. But when I heard that being
(04:27):
said, and I think it was worse because he said that the woman
must follow the husband and for some reason him declaring it to
her in the Scripture reading, I don't know, was really
problematic for me and my feels.I was having all the feels about
it. I'm like, I do not adopt that
feeling or how life should be inthe 21st century at all.
(04:49):
And I told Judy about it and shesays said the same thing that
you did. And but she also said, hey, if
that equity goes both ways, thatthe woman follows the husband
and the husband follows the woman, and both are equal, then
yes. Otherwise, no, because otherwise
you're just property and chatteland second citizens.
(05:11):
Yeah. So that happened today and I was
just having all sorts of feelings about it.
Totally, totally, but. This episode.
Yes. Which is that kind of ironic
because now that I stopped and just was about ready to pose the
transition this Segway, if you will, I realize that what I just
said is exactly what this is about.
And what this is about is how our significant others can have
(05:35):
equality when it comes to the cross dressing, gender diverse,
gender expansive husbands or partners.
And I'll back up a second because the story really
germinates from the Atlantic conference and all the lovely
couples that I reconnected with or was able to connect with or
even new ones I've never met before.
There is now a core group of couples that I speak to on the
(05:58):
regular and we were going through like share that photo
with me, share this photo from when we were at the gala, share
this. We were in a courtyard.
We were pushing photos back and forth between our text message
thread. But there was also this idea.
It's like, man, what's your Facebook?
I'll just send it there and I'llput, is it OK if I post this?
(06:19):
Is it OK if I do that? Can I tag you, etcetera,
etcetera. And knowing that we all have
very protective personal metricsabout how we appear in the
world, most of the S OS we're like, well, I only have my
Facebook account. So we had a whole conversation
about creating alter egos for the SO where the SO can come up
(06:42):
with their secret double secret handshake name that is nowhere
close to the real Facebook. They could keep it separate.
They can start enjoying being tagged or tagging pictures or
being a part of a group Facebookpost wise or Facebook account
wise that they can now share with their partners.
(07:03):
That family dynamic or that couple dynamic can maintain
itself because now they have these accounts with these cool
names that they come up with forthemselves.
Now they can be a part of thingsversus like don't share that
with me because I don't want thenormal folk quote UN quote.
Right. To find out or anything that
cross pollination to happen. Right, kind of like your friend
(07:27):
Panda. Panda is the significant other,
right? Yes, the biological female,
correct. So just having the name Panda,
this was, this is months and months and maybe years ahead of
the conversation we're having now.
But that's an example of a significant other that's showing
up for their spouse and showing up in equality for this topic, I
(07:52):
think. Yeah, absolutely.
Everything is said. And ironically, she was not the
genesis of this specific topic, but yeah.
Sure not, but that's an example of how she has yes, shown up.
She definitely made her mark. Fathers to follow, I'd say.
And Judy did the same thing years ago when with Judy Hawk to
(08:12):
be able to that we could friend request each other and she could
be part of that and like things and comment on things without it
being you have to be within the friend group in order to even be
invited to the friend group. But otherwise you're going to be
on the outside. And especially when most of us
keep our Facebook accounts private or you only can see it
if you're a friend of a friend or what.
(08:34):
How? However you have a set up, we
don't leave it typically wide open for people to find or at
least friend request wise you. You have to know somebody who's
already on the inside. Which is why it's so hard for me
to vet. I get friend requests for people
who are friendly to other people, and if that person has
invented that person, I have to now vet that person.
And I we've talked about this before where I have to list of
(08:56):
five things I check before I sayyes.
I'll just decline people out of the blue if it's even 10%
suspect. I'd.
Rather not invite that into my world if you will.
So what are your thoughts on this?
Well, I think that it's really interesting and it definitely
has my mind on loop and then thinking about all the
possibilities and it brings up alot of questions like when it
(09:18):
comes to the alter egos for the significant others, would it be
a masculine situation? Like would it be them?
Like immediately that's what came to mind in my head.
Would they be assuming a cross dressing situation where
suddenly their alter ego is a man, right?
So that that's instantly what mymind went to.
(09:40):
And then I settled into the ideaof no, it could just be like a a
femme, A femme alter ego that's superhero esque or a high femme
badass version of themselves, analter ego like you said.
But yeah, do you think it's great?
I think that like you said before, it can get confusing
when it comes to friend requestsbecause it can be sloppy and
(10:02):
protection and safety is very important for obvious reasons.
I know that you have had a lot of Zoom slip UPS.
It happens when it comes to the delicate nature of putting
yourself out there and putting yourself out there in community,
especially with something like social media where for example,
I, I don't think I'm even friends with Chuck on Facebook,
(10:26):
which in the beginning it felt weirdish because I was friends
with both. And so just settling into the
different algorithms and all theways that this can look, I think
it's a great idea. Yeah.
And I love what you just said because the first thing I would
say in response to you're not Facebook friends who checked
them like one, you wouldn't really need to.
And for a couple of reasons, I rarely post on my Chuck side.
(10:49):
So like anybody that I knew fromhigh school or anybody that's a
cousin, if I'm posting once a year, that's probably more than
I typically do. Whereas what the work you and I
do and the friendship you and I have and developed is all
Savannah centric. And while yes, Chuck is a lovely
person and you love him just as much as he loves Savannah,
(11:09):
although maybe Savannah a littlebit more, the work that we do is
centered around Savannah and that's where I do my most work
online because I'm really not a social media person in general.
It's the fact that I have 6 different Facebook accounts for
all the things that you and I are doing and all all the things
that Chuck does. It's a lot.
It's a lot to manage and I don'tmanage you well, honestly more
(11:32):
than a couple of the accounts. And that's mostly living with
Cross Dressing Fox in the Phoenix that you and I share and
work on together in Savannah's account whereas Chuck's size.
Hey listen, you might want to dust this off a little bit and
post something. Right, of course.
And I think that there's been post pandemic, a giant wave of
(11:53):
fatigue when it comes to this kind of stuff.
And just the fact that fairly recently you had a conversation
with the company you keep when it comes to finding a space for
significant others to feel like they can cross post in the safe
space. I think it's wonderful.
And I think it gives some freshness to something that, you
(12:14):
know, we've all been, I know, I think we've as a collective,
we've since the start of this podcast, you know, we've been
trying to figure about a space or a place or a planet or
mentality or a connected something where significant
others can feel like they can show up to the table with equal
(12:34):
voice and equal community. And I think that this is just a
perfect example with a level of safety at in terms of who you're
adding in terms of friends, a level of safety and a level of
confidence when it comes to the fact that, you know, my spouse
has an alter ego that is this feminine version that is very
(12:56):
different from their biology myself, as their spouse also can
and does have this alter ego side to myself where I'm more
powerful than the other version of myself.
Or a more, more queer, more accepting, more, more, more,
more, whatever it is, less closeted, less hiding, less
(13:18):
shameful. I think there's something to it.
Yeah, especially from the protective point of view,
protecting yourself from the other social circles that you
have, whether it be family, work, friends and to keep that
protective sphere enclosed and easier to manage versus having
that cross pollination. It was very interesting.
(13:40):
I mean, I love the idea of that fierce goddess version of
themselves. And there was conversation
about, hey, you should do this the same way that we did it.
Find your different name and usea drag formula of first pet in
the street you grew up on. And there was a whole text
(14:02):
thread of people trying that on and we were just having silly
times of there were pretty roughnames in there, but there was
some really good names for the spouses.
I'm like, man, I wish I had grown up on that street and had
that path because that's an amazing drag name.
Only one of the three partners followed through.
(14:22):
They did pick based on a lot of our conversation and they opened
up a new Facebook account so they can manage it and be able
to share. So that was fun and hopefully
the others feel comfortable and confident enough to do the same.
No pressure, obviously, but the idea of you know what?
Why is it that my partners gets to have this alter ego in this
(14:42):
whole other life and I'm just sitting here as a hanger on
around your coattails. I want to have my own identity.
I want to do my own thing. I want to be fierce and amazing
extra in the best ways. So the idea that like you said
earlier, yeah, do that and come up with that fiercest goddess
most. Elevated version.
Yeah, just that most amazing part that you can't do
(15:05):
day-to-day. Obviously none of us are doing
it day-to-day, but just if I tapinto that, it will show off.
Yeah, I think that everybody should have that opportunity,
not just the male to female partner who's had to do that as
a requisite of even being online.
Yeah, I like that very much. And what happens often, I think
what I think about it in terms of my name and names that people
(15:28):
have called me in terms of closefriends like, you know, Jewels
or Foxy or Ruby, just certain names that definitely speak to
me at these different higher levels of understanding.
What ends up happening is when people get really comfortable
calling you that name and when the name isn't so far from the
person you are or that name becomes a part of your identity
(15:52):
in this bigger and bigger and bigger, bigger way.
It's almost like that birth nameor that other name to which you
came to this planet with becomes, I don't want to say
null and void, but just becomes a name that the other people
call you, the people that aren'tin the know of your
fabulousness, if you will. I can definitely relate to that
(16:15):
idea that there's this elevated version of you For people in the
community, that's the name that they know you to be, and that's
the name that they call you as. I had a friend that was still my
friend that was and is in the Poly community and developed a
totally different name from the name they were born with.
(16:36):
And that name, it became so muchtheir name.
It's almost very weird for me orother close people around them
to call them as they're different name.
It's almost like one of those things when you're getting in
trouble by your parents, they use the full name and you're
like, oh shit, you know what I mean?
And so it's very interesting being friends with this person.
(16:58):
I met them as this other name, this other version of the name,
from what I realized, that they go by this whole other different
name, let's say at work or whatever.
I always find it very interesting that, Oh yeah, they
have this entirely different name that they're called at work
or whatever it is. And the two names seem to be
just, I don't know, like T-shirts you put on.
(17:18):
There's like casual Fridays and then there's like all the other
day. So yeah, it's, I think there's
something really powerful to a name and link you a name with an
identity that represents your highest good or your most
selfless self. I love it.
Yeah. Thank you for that.
(17:39):
That's I think even beyond what is happening in this case or in
this story. I want everybody to just lean
into this most amazing well of fierceness and amazingness.
I think in this case, this is less about creating a
full-fledged identity because these are people who are I just
want to do some on Facebook withmy partner and be a part of that
(18:02):
world. But if we but if it when we
meet, we're not going to be using their alter ego names when
we're saying hi and getting together and just having
conversation and going places. We're going to use their normal
everyday birth name kind of thing.
So there's that divide for me, Savannah, if I'm dressed as
Savannah, if I am posting, yes, Savannah is going to be using
(18:26):
the Savannah count is that couldbe Chuck and vice versa.
Whereas all these people are still going to come to the table
in their authenticity as the person they know themselves to
be. So in this case, while Savannah
is my identity, for these ladies, these CIS women who are
trying to be a part of their partners lives, they're just
(18:46):
coming up with names so they cancreate an account and just be a
part of it, but not actually usethat in real life, even when we
are together. So disconnect to it.
But I would love to see them saying all of a sudden there
come the table with like, Oh my God, you don't usually dress
that way. No, but I'm so and so today I
think it'd be fun. I think it would be fun to do
(19:08):
that. Just have fun with this either
cosplay or I'm just going to dress up in this certain manner,
present myself, which, like you said at the beginning, that's
what Violet did. You know, she said I'm coming as
panda and she had the panda energy and that was her motif.
And it wasn't until two years later I.
Was going to say, who's Violet? Well.
Finally, it was her second different name, so it took me
(19:30):
two years before I realized whather real name was, which I'm
still not going to use in this podcast.
Now I know there's three names and I only I know one of them is
her true name, God-given name orparent given name?
Wait, what's your real name? It took me a long time to get
that settled. It is funny in that way that I
can see how difficult it could be for our partners to adjust to
(19:52):
our Feb names when they've only written our male names for so
long. This is a funny and fun and
really kooky exercise, I think, for many of our partners.
I would love for all of them to have just a blast with it, just
to do it, but not necessarily feel like they need to now show
up in that guise if that's not what they want to do.
(20:14):
Yeah, just it's all sorts of things going on.
And I just think if people can say, you know what, I'm going to
fun with this and see what happens, and I think they can
enjoy it from that front. Yeah, I think that I think this
topic is great because like I said at the beginning, when it
was presented to me, I immediately went to the cross
dressing side instantly and not to the side of the significant
other, creating a heightened femme version of their already
(20:36):
biological femme name. I came up with the oh, with
their cross dressing name BQ or Chad or Sean.
Instantly I went to that place which I think for any of the
listeners that you know went there.
Me too, Yeah. I think that it could be a lot
of different things than one. I could.
(20:56):
I think that it could be like a library card.
We were like, this is my librarycard to get into the chat or to
get into the metaverse, so to speak.
We can share photos and all this.
And it can also be a little bit of exploration a little bit and
say with this name, where can I go with this?
(21:18):
I'm curious or like you said, like showing up with, if you had
a superpower, what would it be? But Ed showing up in this kind
of high def version, It can be both those things when it comes
to creativity and when it comes to play and the imagination.
There's no real bookend. It's your library card.
It's an awesome way to share photos and it could be just that
(21:41):
and that's amazing. That's great.
And I think that right now, humanity is really of a revamp.
It's really in need of that special sauce, that magic, that
imagination that's needed. I think right now there's a lot
of push and pull when it comes to all these different ways that
(22:03):
we're just trying to be a good person.
We're just trying to stand in equality with our partner.
That's all we're trying to do. But also, wow, in doing that,
there's a part of me that needs to be nurtured and put it on
high def a little bit and have alittle fun with it.
Or you know that there's a lot of ways in which standing in
(22:24):
equality with your cross dressing partner can look.
And so I think this is great. And one more thing I'll say in
the conclusion sparked based on what you just said is this could
allow the partners to take center stage as well.
One of the things I think is oneof those those little gotchas
between partners when we lead these separate lives is one,
(22:47):
that don't feel included, so they feel like maybe not knowing
what's happening. And two, it's not always your
partner that needs to be center stage.
You, you could be center stage. We talked about that what 5-6
episodes ago about we can share the limelight.
And this is just another way we can share the limelight or they
can share the limelight. And also, like I said, be that
(23:07):
high def person and they can post something, be like, look at
me and we all can validate each other and put everybody up.
The tide rises, all ships and wecan raise everybody up at the in
the same way and let them shine as well.
There's not always just about us.
Look at me, I posted something yay like this, like that
comment. It's also a way for our partners
(23:28):
to be and also take that center stage and be that person in the
one way. Yes, I agree.
I agree, this was great. Yeah, I think so.
And I thought it was cute. Nice little light vampy episode
we could come to the table with.Yeah.
And I would, I'm very curious, dear listeners, what you think
about this topic. And please flood the comment
(23:50):
section with all the different ways that you connect with this
topic and if it brings things up, if you have questions,
because that's to me, the only way that we can continue to
bring attention to significant others, bring awareness, be in
celebration. Love is through talking about it
and continuing the conversation.So, yeah, I think that this was
(24:11):
a great episode and thank you somuch for bringing it to the
table. So like always, we have, well,
not always. Sometimes we don't, but usually
we have a new episode every Wednesday.
And please like and share and spread the word of the Fox and
the Phoenix. Our greatest form of promotion
(24:34):
is through the share button every week.
So yeah, do more of that. And we appreciate all you.
We love all of you. I love you so much, Savannah I.
Love you as well. I love you a lot, so bye for
now. Until next time, you can find me
(24:55):
on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing
and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK and to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
and Facebook at Fox and Hanger or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhanger.com.
(25:22):
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
Yes, nailed it.
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