March 8, 2025 • 54 mins
In this episode, I sit down with Matthew Encina for an intimate look at his inspiring transition from Creative Director at renowned design studio Blind to successful YouTube entrepreneur. Following the viral success of his home office redesign video that catalyzed his independent career, Matthew shares the strategic thinking and creative courage behind his pivot.
We dive deep into his evolution as a product designer, exploring how he artfully balances aesthetics with practical functionality in everything from workspace design to digital products. You'll hear Matthew's unique insights on maintaining creative momentum while working solo, including his morning fitness routine that fuels his productivity. We also geek out over his passion for custom mechanical keyboards and explore how this hobby influences his design philosophy.
Whether you're a creative professional considering the leap to entrepreneurship or simply fascinated by the intersection of design and business, Matthew's candid discussion of risk-taking and personal growth offers valuable lessons for navigating your own creative journey.
From sophisticated workspace solutions to cultivating sustainable creative practices, this conversation delivers actionable insights for anyone looking to elevate their creative game.
Timestamps:
(01:22) - Matthew Encina's Journey: From Student to Creative Director
(02:33) - Venturing into Content Creation
(03:10) - The Big Decision: Leaving The Futur
(06:07) - Success on YouTube: The First Viral Video
(11:58) - Balancing Content Creation and Product Design
(15:11) - Financial Success and Personal Freedom
(17:25) - The Transition to Independent Projects
(24:44) - Collaborating with Grovemade
(29:00) - Reflecting on Gratitude and Success
(30:16) - Diving into Mechanical Keyboards
(31:53) - The Joy of Custom Keyboards
(34:37) - Business Structure and Partnerships
(39:15) - Lessons Learned and Future Plans
(48:32) - Personal Insights
Check out today's guest, Matthew Encina:
Matthews Website: https://matthewencina.com/
Matthews Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/matthewencina/
Mod Musings Website:https://www.modmusings.com/
Mod Musings Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mod.musings/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/matthewencina
Check out The Futur:
Website: https://www.thefutur.com/
Courses: https://www.thefutur.com/shop
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-futur/
Podcasts: https://thefutur.com/podcast
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thefuturishere/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/theFuturisHere/
Twitter: https://x.com/thefuturishere
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thefuturishere
Youtube:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
All right, everybody.
You've seen people on ourchannel come and go, in and out of
the Futurist life, and youmight be wondering, what happened
to them.
Where were the bodies buried?
Well, they're not buried.
They're still alive and well.
And I just want everybody toknow that they go on to live an amazing,
joyful, illustrious life.
And I'm so thrilled to betalking to one of my former creative
directors, head of ArtContent, Matthew and Cena.
(00:42):
Welcome back.
Hey, it's nice to be back finally.
Yeah, finally.
And I don't know why, but Ijust imagine because we talk when
we meet up, that we've hadthis conversation, but we have not.
No.
You've never been on thepodcast, have you?
I think as just maybe a sideguest or to add additional commentary
to something, but I don'tthink I was ever a guest.
Okay, so this episode ispurely focused on you.
(01:05):
There is no side guest.
You are the main attraction here.
And if people recognize thevoice, it's probably for a couple
of different reasons.
But if you're an OG Future fanand a Blind fan, then you'll know
exactly who I'm talking to.
But for those people whodon't, can you introduce yourself
and tell us a little of yourbackstory, Matthew?
Yeah.
So my name is Matthew Encina.
Born and raised in LosAngeles, have been a creative professional
(01:28):
for over 20 years, kind ofexploring all kinds of stuff in a
fun way.
Chris was my teacher back in2006 at Art center, where I studied
graphic design.
And then I went to go internfor him.
I went to go freelance for him.
And eventually he locked medown as a creative director at Blind,
where I was a creativedirector for about a decade, working
on fun, amazing commercialprojects for brands like Xbox and
(01:53):
bands like Coldplay.
And then I ventured off.
I got pulled into the future afew years later, back in 2016, and
then, you know, rode thatjourney for a while and got my training
wheels.
Learning about content,learning about teaching, unpacking
the things that I had inside,realizing that there was a lot of
(02:14):
value inside of me that Icould share with others.
So thank you for that.
And, you know, did that for acouple of years.
And for the past three years,I've just been.
I've kind of set my sail.
I left the future.
Just let the winds ofcuriosity kind of guide me to where
I am now.
And these days, I work oncontent still on my own YouTube channel,
(02:37):
but I've also ventured intoindustrial product design.
So I got into producingproducts in spaces that I'm very
passionate about, like, deskaccessories and keyboards and things
of that nature.
Yeah, we'll get into that.
So before we go to the future,we're going to go to the past.
Matthew and I have a longhistory together of working together
and being inspired by one another.
(02:58):
And one of the beautifulthings that you get to do as a boss
is be around really greatpeople, people who have beautiful
intentions and have a passionfor doing the very best work, and
we can ride that wave together.
So Matthew comes to me one day.
I guess this is now part ofthe future.
And he goes, chris, I have totalk to you.
And anybody ever has thatmeeting with me, like, I need to
talk to you.
(03:18):
I already know what's coming,and I can tell the hesitation and
all the kinds of things.
I can only imagine whateverdialogue's been going on in your
mind before and after, but Itry to recognize the moment and say,
hey, whatever you're going tosay, it's going to be okay.
And there can be no such thingas bad news, because I feel like,
as a boss and as a friend,we've both grown so much together,
and I'm so appreciative of thethings you've already done at this
(03:41):
point.
Every day forward, it's justlike icing on a very thickly iced
cake.
So it didn't really matter, right?
And then you said, hey, tellme what you said, and then I'll quickly
respond to what I said to youright afterwards.
Do you remember?
Roughly?
Roughly.
It was something along thelines of appreciate everything we've
done.
I've enjoyed everything tothis point.
(04:01):
I feel like I'm in my creativeprime and things are growing behind
the scenes, and I feel like Iowe it to myself to see what happens
if I invest all of that energyon my own journey.
And I don't know if I said,literally, this is how I want to
remember.
So if it's not, don't crack me.
I said something to you like,I'm so happy for you.
I've been wondering whenyou're going to have this conversation
(04:24):
with me, and I wish younothing but the best.
My biggest question was, whyso long?
Like, why did it take you so long?
Because one of the things thatI feel like is if I do my job, and
in some ways, and I'm nottrying to say this in a pejorative
way, part of running a companyis like being a parent, and I want
the best for the people thatcome in and out of our company.
(04:44):
Sometimes the best means theyneed to be somewhere else.
And that oftentimes means Ihave to ask them to leave and they
wind up doing great things.
Other times, the teams that Ineed to explore my own thing or explore
this other opportunity, Inever begrudge them, especially when
they've given so much already.
So I just knew that there wasa lot of emotion and energy around
this and I just said, hey,man, I'm just really happy for you.
(05:06):
And people always wonder,like, what happened to Matthew?
You ever.
I just had a sandwich or tacowith him yesterday.
You guys relax.
We just want to see a car showor something.
You know, there's no animus asfar as I know.
Right.
But I can't say that's alwaysthe case because sometimes people
leave or are asked to leaveand I don't ever talk to them again.
And it makes me wonder a lotabout was there more that was in
(05:27):
the relationship than Ithought or was there less because
I thought we work together andall things come to an end.
But unless I betrayed you orwas disloyal or did something that
you thought was wrong andunethical, why shouldn't we have
a relationship?
But oftentimes that's not thecase at all.
So I just want to just double dip.
On the whole, I'm veryappreciative of the relationship
(05:49):
we've had that's going on overtwo decades from us just meeting
each other as at our centerstudent, instructor, and then continuing
on, working together andgrowing together, doing content and
just evolving.
And again, I'm just superhappy for you now.
When you left, you startedyour own YouTube channel.
You basically took all thethings that you learned about what
(06:10):
it is that you wanted to sayin the world and you did it without
compromise in your own way.
And you started making contentand you had phenomenal success out
of the gate.
Before we get into the all thenew stuff you're doing, take me through
like what you're doing, whatthe expectation was, and how the
Internet responded to thattype of content.
Yeah.
So I started my YouTubechannel in early 2019 and at that
(06:33):
point I'd already been workingat the Future for three years.
So I got my training wheels there.
I got to kind of experimentand learn all about YouTube because
I didn't really have muchexperience in it prior to that.
Obviously before that spentall that time in commercial directing
30 second TV commercial.
So there's a lot of stuff thathelped me when I started.
When I started my YouTubechannel, I was just doing it purely
(06:57):
out of joy.
I Was like, okay, I do thisfor work in my 9 to 5.
What would I want to do on my5 to 9 on the weekends?
And at the time, I wasremodeling one of our bedrooms at
the at home to be a homeoffice for me.
And I did a lot of researchand found some interesting content
(07:17):
around that idea of kind ofsharing your remodel, your.
Your desk setup.
But there wasn't any that kindof fit in the style or voice that
I like.
So I was like, you know what?
Maybe I should do this,because I'm already going to do all
this stuff.
I'm kind of passionate andvery oddly interested in this, so
I'm going to document thiswhole process.
So I kind of rebuilt my homeoffice, documented the whole thing,
(07:40):
and created a YouTube videoaround that.
And when it came out, it didpretty good out of the gate.
And then a week later, I thinkit was like 100,000 views.
And I was perplexed.
I did not expect that at allbecause I felt it was so much of
a personal thing where it'slike, okay, this is my space.
This is my little fun DIY project.
(08:02):
And it kind of feels like, youknow, when people make vacation videos
or fun videos for theirfamily, it kind of felt like that
a little bit.
So I had zero expectationother than I just want to show off
this fun project that I'mdoing on the weekends.
And then probably three monthslater, it might have reached a million
views already.
And I was so surprised,especially because all of the stuff
(08:23):
we were doing at the future Ifelt was so high value.
High level is like, oh mygosh, I would pay for this information.
And the viewership there wasnowhere near what I was getting on
this one single video.
So I was.
I was just so perplexed and so surprised.
And so I was like, okay,people like this stuff.
(08:44):
This is interesting.
I have a voice here thatpeople are interested in.
I want to see.
Is this a fluke or can I do it again?
So I produced a few morevideos kind of around the same topic.
They all hit few million viewseach video.
And I was like, okay, this is wild.
There's something here.
It's not just a fluke.
Like there's a formula here.
I kind of struck a nerve and Ikind of figure something out.
(09:06):
So I kept doing that in thebackground and doing more and more
videos, kind of just taking ahalf step out each video to explore
how big my voice andperspective, how many kind of topics
it can cover under the realmof what it is.
That I do.
And over the years, what I'vediscovered is it kind of felt random
when I was doing it, but whenI look back, it kind of makes sense
(09:28):
because all of it was me justsharing aspects of my life, things
that I like to do, design andbuild and make through the lens of
a designer.
And because of all the thingsthat I've done at the future, learning
how to unpack things and teachthat to people in ways that are digestible
and entertaining, I felt likethat came through with the content
that I was making as well.
(09:49):
The video that you dropped,that skyrocketed, I think surpassed
your expectations, but itcompletely blew me away.
I was in awe because for us, agood video would get, like 30,000
views.
And.
And I always believe what wemake is kind of boring.
It's educational content.
Unless you're running abusiness and you're trying to sort
out one problem that we'retalking about.
(10:10):
No one else was.
No one else would be watching it.
And so it's always, to mysurprise that many, many years later,
we have a couple million subs.
And it's like, I don't evenknow who's here.
Why are you guys here?
But when I watch your video,it ticks all these, like, little
boxes.
Diy Home Improvement asmrMeticulous planning and design.
So there's an aesthetic part.
So you could have tuned in forone and got a bonus 4.
(10:33):
And it was all wrapped inthis, really.
And I know a lot about how you work.
It's.
There's meticulous planningand researching and designing and
working out the problem.
Nothing is by chance.
And every frame, every colorgrade, every shot, and the lighting
is very meticulous.
From, I think, many years ofyou directing commercials and music
videos for other people, wehave to put that insane amount of
(10:55):
planning into it because it'svery expensive to make a mistake,
but probably more so.
It's professionally veryembarrassing to say, like, yeah,
I kind of effed up on that,and that's the best I could do.
Right, right.
You took that same kind ofdiscipline, attention to detail into
making videos for YouTube.
And this banger comes out, andof course, we're all sitting there
thinking, did he crack the DaVinci Code?
(11:16):
Is he going to be able to dothis again?
Next video drops banger andbanger after banger.
It's like, this ain't luck.
This is deliberate, meticulous planning.
We just finished an episodewith Adrian.
He goes through crazy amountsof planning, too.
Must be a Filipino thing,because Matthew's Filipino, too.
That's why we can't do it.
You're screwed and I'm screwed.
I don't have enough of that gene.
(11:37):
Right.
So when we see a video that's10 minutes long based on some general
rules of thumb based on howyou do things, how much work and
man hours is going into itbefore you even get to see this 10
minute video?
It depends, but I would sayit's at least a month, probably three
(11:57):
months.
Oh, my God.
But then some of the latestvideos, probably the last three or
four videos, have been allabout product design.
Yeah.
And that's in.
I'm documenting.
While I'm making andmanufacturing goods, it takes six
months to a year.
Yeah.
So I'm documenting for a whole year.
And then.
And then it comes out.
(12:18):
So that's how long it takes.
Okay.
So when you see really high,high level production, you don't
understand that when you'rewatching it and you're just in awe.
You feel it, but you don'tunderstand it.
Because quite literally, whenI watch you're building the keyboard
series and some of yourindustrial design stuff, I kind of
know what it takes.
You're going through roundsand okay, now we're on a conference
(12:39):
call.
I'm like, oh, my God, we'renot even manufacturing yet.
And they're just giving notesand I'm doing some more research,
I'm building more prototypes,I'm solving a new problem, and the
process takes so long.
I'm just curious, at somepoint, when you get into these projects
that are three, six monthsplus, do you ever get the feeling
like, I'm losing steam andinterest in this, or I'm just a gung
(13:00):
ho about doing it?
Surprisingly, I don't losesteam and interest because with the
nature of a lot of productdesign, it's a lot of hurry and wait.
Where you do these sprints ofwork where you're hyper focused on
something, it's like, allright, I got to figure, finish this
iteration of this prototype,and then it's off to manufacturing
to make the prototype.
(13:20):
And you might have to wait acouple of weeks before you get it
back.
So what I do in those lulltimes is I have another project to
work on.
I see.
So I have a good handful ofprojects that I'm just juggling very
slowly to be able to pause onone and then resume another and then
pause on that.
So they're kind of in a littlebit of a relay race and they're just
(13:42):
going around the track.
And luckily that just keeps Me stimulated.
And it's always fun with thosetypes of projects where I did a lot
of work and I kind of forgetabout it for a couple of weeks, and
then all of a sudden, Ireceive a package and I have a physical
prototype of something, andthen I get reinvented.
Very exciting.
Yes, exciting.
It's like, oh, I get to see itand I get to touch it.
And now it's like, how can Imake this better before we launch
(14:04):
this?
How can I make this better?
And then we do another sprintand then maybe more prototyping or
so.
It keeps things very engagingfor me, especially because there's
something about having atangible, physical product versus,
you know, all the digitalstuff we do on screen.
There's something very rewarding.
(14:24):
And, I don't know, you startto build a lot of energy and excitement
towards this thing that you'regoing to launch.
Mm.
I will talk to you so muchmore about the process and the direction
in which you're going as acontent creator, and also the things
that make you super excited.
But I want to take you back alittle bit.
I want to talk about a littlebit about this idea that you had
(14:46):
shared with us before, whichwas, I wanted to make sure if I could
sustain the living I wasmaking before as a salaried employee.
And that's a pretty reasonable thing.
You make money and you think,I just want to maintain a certain
lifestyle.
I don't want to go backwards.
I can if necessary.
But it starts with a questionlike, I wonder if I can.
(15:06):
And.
And then you.
You leave and you take off.
Tell us what happens then.
Yeah, I think that first yearI was making four times my salary
in revenue, so that was very exciting.
The following year is not asmuch, but I think it's because I
had the overlap of the job,everything at the future, and then
all of this kind of momentumcoming out of it.
(15:28):
Over the past two years, Iwould say things have slowed down,
but in a good way, because Ihave been exploring so much in industrial
design, things that I havenever done before, where I'm not
producing a video that often.
Maybe every three months, I'mproducing a video.
And I think when I first hadleft the future, I was doing at least
(15:50):
one every month.
Yeah.
And each one had a sponsor.
And a lot of that justgenerated a lot of revenue and income
for me.
Now, because my time is spentbehind the scenes working and documenting
stuff, not releasing content.
It's a lot slower, but I kindof like it.
I really appreciate it becauseI'm I don't feel stressed to constantly
(16:11):
feed this content machine.
It's like it comes out when itcomes out.
And luckily, I'm still able tomaintain my lifestyle, healthy, good
lifestyle, and feel veryengaged and focused in the work that
I do where I could give it myattention and not feel like I'm spread
through.
Let me clarify for theaudience in case they just missed
it, because Matthew almostglided right over it, which was he
(16:33):
was hoping to make the sameamount of money and then shortly
thereafter, leaving, doing hisown thing, taking on all the risk.
And Peter Drucker said this,in business, all profit comes from
risk.
The more risks you take, themore profit you have to make.
That's a potential, not a guarantee.
And so you go out instead ofmaking 1x of what he used to make.
And I know what he was paid,so now I know how much money he made.
(16:55):
I won't say he made not twotimes, not three times, but four
times as much money in thefirst year.
So in theory, he could havetaken off the next three years and
been all right.
Yeah, because you were used tomaking that kind of money, right?
Yeah.
And that means you can coast.
So you bought yourself a lotof freedom, and I think that's the
real meaning of wealth.
Not that you have a lot ofmoney, but the freedom to do what
(17:16):
you want.
And now you can say, I canearn as much as I want, but I can
do it on my own timetable.
So here's the big question Ihave for you.
Being almost kind ofengineered from the jump to be a
commercial artist.
You and I, we went to ArtCenter, a place that is really well
known for creating practical,skilled designers who can enter into
(17:37):
the field and make a decent living.
So we're hardwired to work forother people to fulfill the creative
brief.
So what happens to you?
What happens to yourpsychology when there is no creative
brief?
There is no master.
Everything has to come from inside.
How does that feel for you?
Because that's a very, veryradical change from somebody's gonna
tell me, like, there's aproject to do and I'm gonna work
(17:59):
on it versus no more projects.
What am I going to do?
How is that transition likefor you?
That was very refreshing.
I was getting tastes of italong the way.
Right.
Because I was doing this stuffnights and weekends anyway, while
I was working at the future.
But even at the future, I wasexperiencing some of that.
A little taste ofentrepreneurship, a little taste
(18:21):
of, okay, you gave me a lot ofroom at the future to just do whatever
I want pretty much you'relike, okay, make whatever you want
under this umbrella and justtry stuff.
So that was very helpful forme to realize, okay, I have a voice,
even though I'm trying allkinds of different things and, and
I was able to learn.
(18:42):
So I'm a very risk averse person.
I think I told you that when Ihad quit.
And so it felt very calculatedto the point where I have confidence
that if I leave, you know,things will be good for a while,
you know, And I feel eversince I left, I feel that same confidence
where I'm just existing in theworld day to day.
(19:05):
And I kind of look around andall I see are possibilities.
Luckily, I don't have to worryabout the money.
I don't have to worry aboutnecessarily when the next video is
coming out.
Like, I do have timetables andstuff like that, but I'm not stressed
about it.
It's not occupying my mindwhere with a client, you know, there's
weekly deadlines, you know, biweekly deadlines, things that come
(19:26):
up all the time.
So that change of pace wasactually very refreshing for me because
I just create my own deadlinesto a degree.
And luckily things are still happening.
So I'm.
I don't know, I'm verygrateful, I'm very blessed that the
universe is, I feel, is likewhispering in one ear.
And I'm able to kind of flowwith, with all of that currently.
(19:49):
So what you're saying is had Ikept a tighter rope on you all, gave
you strict deadlines and keptbeing the taskmaster, you might not
have tasted the freedom.
That's right.
And then you're like, I'm not leaving.
I don't know what that's like.
Yes.
But it's a smooth transition.
Yes, honey, I screwed up.
I told him I was confident.
I give everybody so much freedom.
That's the thing that we talkabout, though.
I remember this.
And you've.
You've been prettyinstrumental in shaping a couple,
(20:11):
like, big seismic changeswithin my own thinking.
The first time, I can't recallall of them, but I remember one right
now.
Because you're like, chris,what if we just focus on doing just
the future, no more blindservice work.
And it took me a beat.
I'm like, okay, try.
Because we were doing the mathand the logic when we, let's say,
(20:33):
book a $600,000 job, you'renot keeping 600,000.
You might keep 100, 150, butthen the rest of the year, you're
just burning that 150 down tonothing because we're not doing another
project.
Right.
You're just keeping themachine going.
At a point, you kind of getcaught up in just the cycle of sustaining
yourself.
So your framing of thequestion meant if we launched an
educational product because itisn't super expensive for us to produce,
(20:57):
we could make 100,000 or200,000, but almost all of it would
be profit.
And the good news is it's ip,hopefully is a perennial seller and
it can generate long termrevenue, but it's building a library
of stuff.
And that kind of surprisinglyjust messed my brain up in the very
best ways.
And so I do appreciate yousaying things like that.
And so you kind of made mesense this other idea.
(21:20):
But I want to get back to thething that we were just talking about,
which was when we worked forsomeone, agencies, there's always
a master, there's always a client.
And then we started doingcontent for ourselves, which was
radically different.
I remember slowly invitingeach and every one of you into the
circle, whatever that is, totaste the freedom.
What we realized is when youopen the gate, the chickens run.
(21:43):
They don't want to go back inthe cage.
And I'd ask you guys, despiteinvesting almost all of your creative
energy up until this point indeveloping a professional reel to
do work for clients, to theman, to the human, you're like, we
don't want to go back.
Even if it means this isweird, undefined, and it's not as
sexy.
There are big brands attachedto it.
We just don't want to go back.
(22:03):
Take me through a little bitof your thinking then when, when
that door was open and how itfelt because not only you, but Greg
and others were like, yes, wedon't want to go back.
Yeah, I think for me, again, Ijust had full confidence.
A lot of that is owed to youand how you've helped me see possibility
and kind of focus on theabundance mindset rather than scarcity.
(22:29):
Right.
So the whole time, I alwaysfelt like we could always go back
to that.
So I felt like we had a safety net.
So I didn't fear trying new things.
It was more exciting becauseyou know that fear and excitement
feels the same in your body.
Right.
How you look at it determineswhich one you're actually feeling.
And for me, it was mostly excitement.
(22:50):
It's like, this is new territory.
What will this reveal for us?
So I think about it almostlike you're going into a dark room.
No lights are on and you havea flashlight and you're flashing
the light around and slowlybut surely, you know, you're starting
to reveal parts of the roomyou're starting to see and you're
(23:10):
starting to understand what itis that's there.
You might walk in and youmight bump your knee on something
and that might hurt, but youknow that it's there.
Right.
And the more you spend in thisdark room, the more you kind of feel
where's the edges, how bigthis room is, what's actually in
here.
And it felt like so muchpossibility at the time when we were
starting the future, when wewere building the future, because
(23:31):
there was so manypossibilities where we could take
it.
What does the content look like?
What are we going to focus on?
What format does it take?
Right, that's one avenue.
What products does that lead to?
What products can we develop?
What are things that we doevery day that we might take for
granted but could be valuableto somebody else that could be a
source of content or product?
(23:51):
And then what about events?
What about, we have all thisphysical space?
How do we use it?
How do we engage the community?
So all of these things werebrand new versus all of the advertising
work that we had been doing tothat point.
It was, I knew it like theback of my hand.
Everything was, I knew whatwas going to happen in every single
(24:12):
project.
It was just a well oiled machine.
And even though the work wasfun and beautiful, it just felt like
doing the same thing over and over.
And it was nice to trysomething new.
Yeah.
Okay, let's take us now kindof more in into present day.
When you've got your ownchannel out, you're exploring brand
deals, that's how you make money.
(24:32):
And the videos get so manyviews that it's exposing it to so
many folks.
That's great.
Then what was the thing thatled you to the first moment when
you're like, I think I want todevelop some products.
How did that come about andwhy did you decide to go down that
path?
I owe a lot of my success topeople seeing things in me that I
(24:53):
couldn't see for myself.
I think you saw that in me.
A lot of my instructors fromthe past, as I was going through
education, always kind ofpushed me beyond my capacity or what
I felt comfortable in.
And as soon as I had quit myjob at the Future, which I made a
public announcement aboutthat, you know, all kinds of conversations
(25:15):
started happening.
A lot of them were job offersand I'm like, thank you, I appreciate
that.
But not right now.
Like I owe it to myself tojust have downtime do a little bit
of a sabbatical and some soulsearching and see what happens.
But one of those conversationsthat came along was my friends over
at Grovemade.
They make desk accessories andthey're based out of Portland.
(25:35):
They had been sponsoring andhelping out my channel in various
ways over the years.
So I'd been developing arelationship with them for about
three years at that point.
And they asked me, hey, wouldyou like to develop a product with
us?
I highly respected them atthat point.
I love the goods that theymake and because they were inviting
me into this process, I wasvery excited to join.
(25:59):
Just like I was explainingright before, new things excite me,
new problems.
Even though it can be a littlescary, I don't see it that way.
I see it as pure possibilities.
I don't know what it's goingto lead me to, but I'm open to take
the ride and see where ittakes me.
So that was a two year journeywith them of doing a little kind
of investigation, doing alittle bit of just exploring what
(26:22):
products it could be.
They visited me a coupletimes, I visited them and over a
two year process we developeda product that we call the Note Taking
Kit, which is just a way tohelp you capture, store and recall
your ideas.
And that was an amazingprocess to me because I got to watch
Masters at Work, somethingthat I felt like I knew nothing about,
(26:44):
was always curious aboutbecause I love learning about how
things are made and I was justa sponge in that situation.
I gave what I could as adesigner as my perspective.
And I think one of the reasonswhy they worked with me is obvious
because of my content.
And they liked the perspectivethat I had and they felt there was
alignment there.
And even though I didn't haveany experience in industrial design
(27:06):
or designing products, theyvalued my opinion and perspective.
So they invited me into thatprocess and that's really what set
me off down this path.
There was a lot of obvioussynergies between the kinds of DIY
home improvement estheticthings that you're doing that would
make a lot of sense forGrovemade to kind of sponsor you
and as being fans of the channel.
(27:27):
This is the power of, I guess,inbound content, content marketing
where you attract the kinds ofpeople who have shared ideas or philosophies
as you.
You're not actively chasingthem down.
Ultimately, instead ofchasing, you're choosing who you
want to work with.
And I know you're veryparticular as to who you align with
and kinds of things thatyou'll talk about and never Do I
(27:48):
get this feeling from youlike, I'm going to take this because
it's cash grab.
In fact, you're quite the opposite.
Like, I'm not sure that's agood fit for me.
And I think making smartdecisions like that have allowed
you to grow in the way thatyou want to align yourself with the
partners that actuallycontribute to your own growth.
And for them seeing thatwithin you to say, hey, and I can
see it from their point ofview, man, we got this guy who can
make banger videos.
(28:08):
So whatever he touches, it'sgoing to get a lot of eyeballs on.
The next evolution to thatrelationship is why don't you develop
a product and then we alreadyknow you're going to be able to tell
a great story behind it andget lots of views.
So there's a natural built inmarketing device that feels very
organic to who you are.
I think if I'm not mistaken,you guys want to visit me at the
(28:31):
studio.
We're still in Pandemic.
I think we're all messed upand we're talking about things and
you're doing some userresearch, right?
Same, same people.
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay, so even then you werestill working despite certain limitations
and figuring it out.
Okay, so one journey, one dooropens, you go through that, another
door opens, another door opens.
And yeah, I don't know if youever get this feeling, because I
(28:53):
do.
Do you ever get the momentwhere you're like, is this a dream
I'm living?
Because how is this happeningfor me right now?
And if you do, can you tell mea little bit about that experience?
If you don't, that's okay too.
Yeah, no, I feel that wayevery day.
Every time I pause and thinkabout what it is I'm doing, you know,
I just reflect on how gratefulI am to be in this position, to be
(29:16):
doing the things that I'mdoing, to have the creativity, the
body and everything that I'mdoing, like my health, wealth, and
luckily, just being able toexpress my creativity in these forms
and fashion.
I'm grateful for that every day.
And I reflect on that often.
So I do feel like it's a dream.
It doesn't make sense.
Sometimes I look back, it'slike, how did this happen?
(29:38):
How did this even happen?
But then I tried to rationalize.
It's like, actually it makesperfect sense.
And it's this weird kind ofdichotomy of going back and forth,
of, I'm so grateful, do I evendeserve this?
And it's like, of course itMakes perfect sense.
You did all this hard work andall of these dots connect, right?
Matthew, I agree with you.
We can simultaneously live inthis dual state where we're like,
(30:01):
what the fudge is happening?
But this is the residual ofall this planning and preparation.
And so people tell me, like,hard work and preparation increases
the surface area of luck to happen.
And it's like there's moreopportunities for luck to hit.
You've done all that work.
Now I want to get to the superexciting part.
You are developing a line ofkeyboards and other accessories.
(30:22):
So the accessories are gettingmore complicated.
Now.
It used to be things withalmost no moving parts, and now there's
lots of moving parts.
And I remember I was chattingwith one of our friends and colleagues,
Ben Burns, who I thinkintroduced you to mechanical keyboards.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, I have a hundred.
You're insane.
You guys have a sickness, bothof you.
(30:42):
And then I'm looking at himlike, I appreciate the video.
I appreciate all the clicky,cocky sounds.
And my son is super addictedto these things.
Well, you guys are crazy.
I just need a keyboard that works.
And then I find that there's alaunch happening.
Then I'm asleep.
Not literally, but.
And I check in.
I'm like, hey, I'm ready tobuy it.
It sold out in, like, seconds.
It felt like, yeah, right.
(31:03):
It was gone in a minute.
It was like, what?
So I messaged you and you'relike, hey, Chris, I'll build one
for you.
Because what I don't evenrealize is you don't just order,
you got to build it.
Yeah, but that's when I tapped out.
I'm like, dude, I cannot, Sol.
It's too much.
I like this.
I can appreciate it, but I can't.
And you did me one.
One further where like, let'stalk it through.
I'll build it for you.
And then I get this really beautiful.
(31:24):
And it weighs a ton.
And, you know, there's a thingabout weight and quality, the sense
that the heavy things arebuilt better.
And I'm using it.
At first I'm like, I miss myfull size keyboard and everything.
I'm using it, I'm using it.
And it's like, it.
It is highly addictive andsoothing to use a mechanical keyboard
that's been tuned to exactlywhat you need and want.
(31:46):
And now I feel like I'm goingto go down a dark rabbit hole or
something.
Which you, I think, wasintroduced to and fell down yourself,
right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So for people who don'tunderstand this, why the heck would
anyone want a keyboard that'shard to get, that takes hours to
build, and may not even go right?
Because you're like, hey, yougot to test everything, right?
Why would people want that?
Describe that feeling to them,that joy.
(32:09):
Yeah.
I think a lot of folks like totinker, right?
And sometimes that's buildingand restoring an old car, sometimes
that's doing a DIY project,sometimes that's working on a puzzle
while you're drinking wine atnight to wind down.
And to me, keyboards are verysimilar to that.
I got introduced to keyboardsabout three years ago, maybe four
(32:30):
years now, and.
And I had built out everythingin my home that I could possibly
be building, and I ran out ofstuff to tinker with.
And so this had just come atthe right time.
It was like, okay, mechanicalkeyboards, give me the parts.
I'll kind of figure this out.
And so it's intimidating atfirst because it can be overwhelming,
like anything new.
But once you build onekeyboard, you get to experience it,
(32:52):
and you get to break it downand modify it and build it again
and then build it again.
And then maybe you buy asecond keyboard and build it a different
way, and you'll realize thatdepending on the design of it, the
engineering of it, whatswitches you use, what keycaps, you
can change the aesthetic,sound, and feel.
So it just.
There's a lot of possibilitiesthat you can explore within a custom
(33:13):
mechanical keyboard.
That makes it very fun if youlike to tinker, right?
And then the nice thing is youget to use it as a device for your
computer.
And I do a lot of writing.
I do a lot of stuff on thecomputer, so it's.
It's a joy to type on for me.
So it's.
It's fun to.
To build these and then get touse them after.
I think industrial designers,the really good ones, obsess over
(33:35):
every little nuance anddetail, from the reaction time to
the noise it makes, howsquishy it is, just amount of resistance.
And you describe certainthings to me that I just couldn't
get until you start to use it.
Oftentimes when you type on aMac keyboard, because of the scissor
spring or whatever they've gotin there, I'm never sure, like, did
I hit it and I had to stop and check?
(33:56):
No, I hit it, and you keep going.
But with the mechanicalkeyboard, the one that you set up
for me as a resistance point,it's harder to accidentally hit it
so you can hover over it, butthen you really have to push it.
And you feel the resistance,and there's a little bit of change.
And when you told me about itwhen I went to use it, I'm like,
oh, I now know what you'retalking about.
So there's something verygratifying, knowing very well I did
(34:18):
what I did, and I don't haveto worry that I didn't do what I
did.
And I know that sounds stupid.
Until you get yourself amechanical keyboard, it's like crack,
guys.
It really is.
It's.
It's a fun, tactileexperience, and there's just a nice
kind of kinetic energy thatyou connect with when you're.
You're typing.
And, I don't know, it does getvery addicting.
So tell me a little bit, ifyou can, about the business structure
(34:40):
of this, because people are listening.
Cool.
Cool.
I got a channel doing brand collabs.
I'm having products designed,so correct me if I'm wrong.
It's your concept.
You designed it.
You specced everything.
They build it, and then do youget a piece of it?
How does that work?
How do you make money fromdoing something like this?
Yeah.
So I've worked with a lot ofdifferent partners over the past
(35:02):
three years, and they all kindof break down a little differently.
But usually what happens is Ienter in as a designer, and my role
as a designer sometimes isvery minimal, where aspects of the
product are already figured it out.
Are figured out, and I'm thereselecting very particular, you know,
materials or colorways.
And then other times, like thekeyboard, the encore keyboard, they
(35:25):
just give me carte blanche.
We kind of do a kickoff call,and they say, here's what we would
like it to be.
And I say, yep, I'm aligned there.
And then they just say, go.
And then so I design it from scratch.
I kind of pass it back andforth with them because I'm not an
expert in building any of that stuff.
I had to learn CAD modeling.
I had to learn a lot of thesethings along the way, and.
And luckily, my partners atMode were just very gracious in teaching
(35:49):
me things that I didn't know before.
So where there's moments of alot more authorship where I'm taking
a lot more risk, that's whereI would get more of the pie.
So with a lot of theseproducts that I've worked on, I usually
get a royalty percentage asthe designer of the product.
So as long as we're sellingthe product, I'll get a cut of that
thing.
(36:09):
And, yeah, it's nice, becausesome of These products I'll build
once, and then we'll domultiple runs of those things.
So then I just keep gettingthe royalty payments for those.
So that's.
That's nice.
And I've learned a lot in thepast three years.
And again, I've just been sideby side with a lot of these experts.
Now I'm kind of moving intothe space where I'm wondering, could
(36:31):
I just do it all on my own?
Do I need the partner?
And can I just take the whole piece?
And so I'm doing a lot ofresearch these days, looking for
manufacturers, talking todifferent folks, and I'm starting
to see the dots that I can connect.
And I'm starting to get thatexcitement again, even though it
was very intimidating at first.
The reason why I partneredwith a lot of these brands to manufacture
(36:53):
these things for me is becauseI knew nothing.
And I just wanted to be thesponge in that situation.
I just want to learn now.
I have a lot more confidencewhere I feel like I know what it
takes.
I've done this a couple timeswith the help of experts.
Can I do this myself?
And I do have that confidence,and I'm feeling that trajectory is
kind of pulling me in thatdirection now.
(37:14):
Okay, so you're increasing theamount of risk that you're willing
to take on and kind oflearning as you're going to kind
of figure out what thepitfalls are.
I think I encourage you to do it.
There's one potential pitfall,which is this beautiful lifestyle
business you've been able tobuild for yourself will most likely
be going away.
Yes.
Because the minute you starttaking on inventory, you're like,
(37:35):
now putting money into it.
There's fulfillment, customer service.
So now it's a business.
And you're going to have to.
Because I know you as thisethical person, you can't just ship
it and abandon it if itdoesn't feel like right anymore.
Yes.
You kind of stuck with it fora while.
Yes.
So I'm very aware of that.
And the thing that I've beenso grateful for and been trying to
maintain for these past threeyears is that lifestyle.
(37:57):
Yeah.
Where if tomorrow I don't wantto work on any video content, like,
I'll just pick up and go anddo something else.
Yeah.
And I value that a lot.
I've been meditating on thisas I inch closer to thinking about
this, and I'm still lookingfor ways where I might be able to
leverage somebody else'sresources to be able to handle the
things that I might not excelat or want to do.
(38:20):
So I could use something likea 3PL to do my fulfillment for me.
What is the 3PL?
A third party logistics.
Oh, look at, everybody knowsabout me.
Yeah, there's like a warehousewhere like Amazon has 3 PL, like
they will do all thefulfillment for you.
Right.
And so I'm looking at optionslike that.
I'm just trying to understandthe playing field.
(38:42):
I'm trying to understand whereit's going to hurt.
And I'm warming up to the ideaof taking on a little bit more of
that pain.
The things that I.
I don't necessarily lovedoing, but I could see me getting
involved and actually liking it.
So I'm warming up to it.
I'm not fully there yet, butlike I said earlier, I'm risk averse
and I'm just taking baby stepstowards this direction.
(39:03):
Well, if the past is anyindicator of the future, I think
you're going to do well andyou'll do all the research, the design
and you'll figure it out.
I have a couple more questionsfor you.
One thing I wanted to ask youwas what's the one thing that really
surprised you about this wholejourney and going on your own?
Hmm.
The biggest thing thatsurprised me when I left the future
(39:27):
and went on my own was what Iwas able to do after.
And all the things I did afterwere things I hadn't done before.
So those were.
That was the most exciting thing.
None of these things were planned.
Like I barely know what I'mdoing next week.
I don't have long term vision,like I don't have a five year plan
(39:49):
or anything like that.
I kind of just listen to myintuition and my gut and I really
let my curiosity and passionjust pull me as hard as possible.
So these curiosities.
When I left the future, mygoal at the time was to become a
better storyteller in whateverform that would be.
And the universe kind of answered.
(40:09):
And our friends over atwebflow had called me up and they
said, hey, do you want todirect a documentary for us?
And I said, you know, I'm nota documentary director.
But they saw that possibilityin me.
And I was like, okay, this is new.
It aligns with my goal, whichis just to become a better storyteller.
Let me try it in this format.
And we worked on a multi partseries called Generation no Code.
(40:31):
And that was fun.
That was incredible.
It was at the time we werejust inching out of the pandemic,
got to travel, I got to meet alot of Designers John Saunders, who
you know, great guy, great people.
And so that was a greatproject for me.
The thing with Grove madegetting into product design things
I had never anticipated for myself.
I never saw myself doing these things.
(40:52):
Yet there I was.
And now something that I'mdoing now with the keyboard, that
started as a pandemic hobbythat I got really passionate about,
turned into products andthings that I'm making expressions
that I wanted to see in theworld that I didn't see before.
So it's just amazing whathappens when you allow possibility
(41:13):
to take over and you haveconfidence in the things that you're
doing.
There's one thing I wanted tohighlight real quickly.
You can respond to it or not,and then I'll get to another question.
But I think your approach tomaking content is a little bit more
akin to how Stephen Barlett,the Diary CEO person, does it.
There's a lot of planning,slight research.
There's a lot of AB testingfor titles and thumbnails before
(41:36):
anything is made.
And I admire the amount ofenergy and focus and intentionality
you put behind your thingsbecause I can see it every time you
drop a video.
There's Instagram posts,there's reels and cut downs, trailers
and all this stuff to drivethat first day drop number and really
pushing hard.
We're a volume kind of operation.
I have an idea.
(41:56):
We just make it.
There's not a lot of planningor thinking.
Things go out, we adjust onthe fly.
That's kind of our style.
But I can also really, reallyappreciate the amount of focus, energy
put on it.
Because if a video doesn'tdrop for like once a month or every
other month.
Yeah.
It's got to work.
Otherwise, like shoot.
Yeah.
You're going to.
If you're going to waitanother three months before you see
the next thing.
For me.
Right.
Yeah.
And so I just wanted toappreciate and acknowledge that.
(42:17):
So some of you are like, yeah,I'll just start out tomorrow, have
a multimillion viewed video.
You might, but you got to putin the work.
I think you could get lucky.
Yeah.
You know, each video I treatlike a launch.
Yeah.
So with working in thecommercial advertising space, we
spent many months working onthe launch, usually of a product
to announce something, workingat the future, working with Ben and
(42:39):
the folks there.
When we would launch a newdigital product, it was the same
thing.
Right.
We have a hard date.
We have to have all theseassets and all these points that
are all pushing down thisfunnel, different messaging points
so that there's a lot ofexcitement when it actually drops.
And I think about creatingvideos in the same way.
It is a launch for me.
It's a big thing.
It's not just like a casual,like I'm uploading today.
(43:01):
It's like, no, this is a launch.
Like I treat it as such.
Okay, this one's gonna be alittle harder, so take as much time
you need to reflect on this.
I'd love for you to reflect onthis storied career that you have
working with some of thebiggest brands in the world.
And I think it was a beautifulway to kind of end one chapter, to
finish a video for Coldplay,to do this amazing video for Xbox.
(43:23):
And then now content, nowproduct, brand deals.
What are the three biggestlessons that you've learned that
you wish you could tell Mattat 21, they could be on anything.
It could be aboutrelationships, health, wealth.
It could be about taking theshot earlier or believing in yourself
or grabbing the lion orwhatever it is you want to say.
(43:45):
I'd love for you to look atthe camera and say, here are three
of the lessons that I wish Iknew when I was 21 and just this
is your TedX moment.
I wouldn't change who I was at 21.
I wouldn't change mytrajectory at all.
But I will share the threelessons that I've learned.
I think the first lesson thatI've learned on this journey of exploring
(44:08):
possibility for the past fewyears is lean into your curiosity.
I think most people aresurface level curious or they might
do a Google search worth ofsomething or try something or a surface
level, but never go deepenough where they're finding interesting
novel perspectives orviewpoints or information that most
(44:32):
of the world doesn't have.
So when you lean into yourcuriosity, you discover all of these
beautiful things that feelslike you're treasure hunting.
A lot of the projects thatI've been on that curiosity has unpacked
so many bits of novelinformation for me that get me excited,
that get me creatinginteresting features or aspects to
(44:54):
the products or projects thatI'm working on.
So if you lean into yourcuriosity, it's you'll be finding
treasure all day.
And when you find thattreasure, then you get to share that
with the world.
And that is a big filter thatI use when I create my content, which
is if it was novel and new tome, that means it's going to be interesting
for somebody else.
(45:15):
So those are the things that Itend to include in my video.
Things that don't have that Itend to edit out Lean into your curiosity,
because that, I think, is a superpower.
I think the recap on theleaning into your curiosity is.
It's like what we do is wetalk about the T scale, where you
can know a little bit about alot of things or a lot about one
(45:36):
thing.
And it's the Bruce Lee quote.
I don't feel the person who'spracticed 10,000 kicks one time,
but I do fear the man who'spracticed one kick 10,000 times.
That repetition breeds skill,Skill breeds confidence.
And then eventually you startto know those patterns and you can
innovate from that.
So follow that and take it tothe N3.
I always say, reach theterminus of what it is that you want
to get into.
(45:56):
And that's what I do.
And then I'm bored.
And then move on to the next.
And move on to the next thing?
Yeah, to that point.
Moving on to the next thing.
The second thing that I wouldgive advice or something that I've
learned over these past fewyears is that everything adds up.
So the thing that you're doingright now, the thing that you're
exploring right now, Sometimespeople project too much in the future
(46:19):
and think, am I wasting my time?
Am I doing this?
And then it's not going toresult in any money or it's not going
to result in a career.
I never look at stuff like that.
I just keep going.
And sometimes things don'tclick right away, but it might take
a few years where all of asudden the dots connect.
(46:40):
And I've experienced that alot in the past few years where there's
ideas for things that I'vehad, things that I've noticed for
products, but I never had theskills for it.
Fast forward a few yearslater, once I've learned more skills.
Now, these perspectives andthings that I've learned, features
that I've seen elsewhere thatI've wanted to infuse, I can express
(47:00):
that because I now have thetools and dots to connect that I
previously didn't have before.
So I think everything adds up.
So don't stress out too muchabout what's going to happen in the
future.
I think just focusing anddoing the thing that you're doing
right now very well andearnestly is key.
Excellent.
You got number three?
Yeah, number three.
(47:23):
If someone else can do it, socan you.
That was the biggest lessonthat I felt like I had learned and
what gave me full confidenceto leave the future.
I saw Chris build the futurefrom nothing, from zero subscribers
up to over 2 million now.
And it was there's somethingto say where if there's somebody
(47:43):
in your proximity or somebodythat you can relate to or see and
you see them build upsomething, all of a sudden that possibility
becomes very clear in yourmind and you start to ask yourself
if they can do it, why not me?
And I think seeing people likeyou and seeing other like different
content creators mature anddevelop and explore different routes
(48:05):
over the years, it gave me alot of possibilities in my mind.
Like I'm actually pretty wellequipped to tackle these things.
If they can do it, why not me?
Right.
And so that was a very big lesson.
So it's one of the things thatI'm very appreciative of kind of
growing up and maturing.
So one of the reasons why I dothe content that I do is so that
(48:26):
I get show people the possibilities.
If I can figure it out fromzero, you could do it as well.
And that's why I share thethings that I do.
Okay, two personal questionsreal quick before we get out of here
is what's going on with your Bboy stuff?
That's the first one.
Yeah.
So I'm still, I'm still dancing.
I've been dancing since 1999.
(48:47):
So I've been dancing for along time and it's been a really
big part of my life because Idiscovered dancing at a time where
I was, you know, the scrawny90 pound kid, didn't have a lot of
confidence, but that gave me acertain perspective and attitude.
There's a whole kind ofculture and lifestyle that you have
to be kind of aggressive,engaged and expressive.
(49:09):
That just helped me slowly,over time, build that confidence.
So that was a second life thatI kind of straddled for a long time.
And interestingly enough, overmy career I've hired and worked with
a lot of people that I've metthrough the dance scene and a lot
of those folks are doinginteresting things themselves.
So dance is really importantto me and I still get to practice
probably once a week with friends.
(49:30):
Are you doing the dancecompetitions with the crew?
I am.
You are.
It hurts.
It hurts.
It's not the same.
Time catches us, catches everybody.
No one's immune to that.
Yeah, but I'm not trying to compete.
I'm just trying to be creative.
All I care about is it's aform of expression for me.
So I take off all the pressureof competition and I just, I just
want to dance.
(49:51):
Okay.
Yeah.
Hot take.
You ready?
I don't want you to overthinkthis one.
We can edit this out if itdoesn't work out.
The Australian B girl who didher thing, was she a troll or was
she being super creative or something?
Something in between.
I think there's a lot of roomfor what she did at the Olympics.
If.
I think most people just sawthat and made a headline judgment
(50:16):
about dancing in its current state.
If that's all you focus on,you missed out on all the beautiful
performances that happenedduring the Olympics.
And if you think that what shewas doing was trolling, then you
obviously have not spent anytime in B boy culture and you don't
understand a breaking cultureand all the room there is for creativity.
(50:41):
So she, she took a big gamble,took her shot, and people are misinterpreting
it.
I think she did her thing.
Yeah.
I think she just did her thing.
And I don't.
I mean, that's.
There's a lot of debatewhether the breaking should even
be in the Olympics.
Right.
But it's a sport.
If you just look at thedefinition of the sport.
Right.
People competing forentertainment, I think that's like
(51:04):
the most basic version of a sport.
But there are so many thingslike that.
But with that breaking is partart and then part sport.
Yeah.
And for me, I'm mostinterested in the creative aspects.
Maybe it's just because ofwhere I'm at in my life and the competitive
stuff, that's cool.
But it, it doesn't interest meas much.
Okay.
(51:24):
I've also witnessed you gothrough some transformations, not
just in creativity, design andexpressions of what you can do, but
physically as a student.
You were physically a certain way.
And, and then I remember therewas a summer somewhere with you and
Chris O'Neill and likeeverybody's trying to get into shape
and it was like a six packcompetition and you got ripped.
You got ripped.
(51:46):
Where are you on your journeyto physical fitness and all the crazy
things you could do?
The flag pole you could do.
I don't know.
What, what do you call thatthing when you're just floating in
air with your hands on the bar?
Yeah, that's a flag.
Is that a flag like this way?
Not, not sideways.
Oh, a front lever.
Front lever.
I didn't even know the namesof things.
Yeah, he's showing me how todo the front lever.
I'm like, I can't do the front lever.
Can you still do the different lever?
I don't know.
(52:06):
I haven't tried in a long time.
But I work, I still work outpretty regularly.
It just, it's important to meto, I think, be healthy.
Because if my body is healthyand my mind is healthy, then everything
just works together.
Yeah.
And if one thing is lagging inyour life, then it will hurt and
kind of become toxic to theother thing.
So.
Yeah.
So I'm gonna just say thislady, she's happily married, but
(52:28):
underneath that, he's a specimen.
Those are words that Mo would use.
He's a specimen.
We won't ask him to take offhis shirt right now, but we're good.
We'll just assume it's notthat kind of show.
That's a different show.
That's after hours.
Everybody subscribe to thechannel to get that deep cut.
I'm just kidding.
It's not going to happen.
You don't have to subscribe to anything.
Matthew, if people want tokeep in touch with you, I know the.
The Instagram account modmusings.
(52:49):
Right.
Is there other accounts we canfollow or.
Yeah.
Where to direct us to where weneed to go?
Yeah.
So you can find me on allsocials at Matthew and Cena.
Matthew and Cena.com and thenmy design studios, Modmusings.com
and Mod Musings on Instagram.
Wonderful.
I just feel like we've hadthis conversation already because
I just know you so well, but Ikind of looked in the records like
(53:11):
we haven't had this conversation.
So it's not recorded?
No, it's never been recorded.
Just in my mind, this podcasthas happened many times before.
I'm glad that we got to do it now.
So now you guys know Matthewis alive.
Well, he's not buried in the desert.
That's right.
And he's got this wholethriving other career and arc.
And I can't wait to see whatthe next five years hold for for
him.
And I want to say this in closing.
(53:31):
The future is bright, thefuture is expanding, and the future
is in really good hands withpeople like him.
Thanks for joining us.
If you haven't already,subscribe to our show on your favorite
podcasting app and get newinsightful episodes from us every
week.
(53:51):
The Future podcast is hostedby Chris.
Doe and produced and edited byRich Cardona Media.
Thank you to Adam Sanborn forour intro music.
If you enjoyed this episode,then do us a favor by reviewing and
rating.
Our show on Apple Podcasts.
It will help us grow the showand make future episodes that much
better.
(54:12):
If you'd like to support the show.
And invest in yourself whileyou're at.
It, visit thefuture.com andyou'll find video.
Courses, digital products, anda bunch of helpful resources about
design in the creative business.
Thanks again for listening,and we'll see you next time.
All right, everybody.
You've seen people on ourchannel come and go, in and out of
the Futurist life, and youmight be wondering, what happened
to them.
Where were the bodies buried?
Well, they're not buried.
They're still alive and well.
And I just want everybody toknow that they go on to live an amazing,
joyful, illustrious life.
And I'm so thrilled to betalking to one of my former creative
directors, head of ArtContent, Matthew and Cena.
(00:42):
Welcome back.
Hey, it's nice to be back finally.
Yeah, finally.
And I don't know why, but Ijust imagine because we talk when
we meet up, that we've hadthis conversation, but we have not.
No.
You've never been on thepodcast, have you?
I think as just maybe a sideguest or to add additional commentary
to something, but I don'tthink I was ever a guest.
Okay, so this episode ispurely focused on you.
(01:05):
There is no side guest.
You are the main attraction here.
And if people recognize thevoice, it's probably for a couple
of different reasons.
But if you're an OG Future fanand a Blind fan, then you'll know
exactly who I'm talking to.
But for those people whodon't, can you introduce yourself
and tell us a little of yourbackstory, Matthew?
Yeah.
So my name is Matthew Encina.
Born and raised in LosAngeles, have been a creative professional
(01:28):
for over 20 years, kind ofexploring all kinds of stuff in a
fun way.
Chris was my teacher back in2006 at Art center, where I studied
graphic design.
And then I went to go internfor him.
I went to go freelance for him.
And eventually he locked medown as a creative director at Blind,
where I was a creativedirector for about a decade, working
on fun, amazing commercialprojects for brands like Xbox and
(01:53):
bands like Coldplay.
And then I ventured off.
I got pulled into the future afew years later, back in 2016, and
then, you know, rode thatjourney for a while and got my training
wheels.
Learning about content,learning about teaching, unpacking
the things that I had inside,realizing that there was a lot of
(02:14):
value inside of me that Icould share with others.
So thank you for that.
And, you know, did that for acouple of years.
And for the past three years,I've just been.
I've kind of set my sail.
I left the future.
Just let the winds ofcuriosity kind of guide me to where
I am now.
And these days, I work oncontent still on my own YouTube channel,
(02:37):
but I've also ventured intoindustrial product design.
So I got into producingproducts in spaces that I'm very
passionate about, like, deskaccessories and keyboards and things
of that nature.
Yeah, we'll get into that.
So before we go to the future,we're going to go to the past.
Matthew and I have a longhistory together of working together
and being inspired by one another.
(02:58):
And one of the beautifulthings that you get to do as a boss
is be around really greatpeople, people who have beautiful
intentions and have a passionfor doing the very best work, and
we can ride that wave together.
So Matthew comes to me one day.
I guess this is now part ofthe future.
And he goes, chris, I have totalk to you.
And anybody ever has thatmeeting with me, like, I need to
talk to you.
(03:18):
I already know what's coming,and I can tell the hesitation and
all the kinds of things.
I can only imagine whateverdialogue's been going on in your
mind before and after, but Itry to recognize the moment and say,
hey, whatever you're going tosay, it's going to be okay.
And there can be no such thingas bad news, because I feel like,
as a boss and as a friend,we've both grown so much together,
and I'm so appreciative of thethings you've already done at this
(03:41):
point.
Every day forward, it's justlike icing on a very thickly iced
cake.
So it didn't really matter, right?
And then you said, hey, tellme what you said, and then I'll quickly
respond to what I said to youright afterwards.
Do you remember?
Roughly?
Roughly.
It was something along thelines of appreciate everything we've
done.
I've enjoyed everything tothis point.
(04:01):
I feel like I'm in my creativeprime and things are growing behind
the scenes, and I feel like Iowe it to myself to see what happens
if I invest all of that energyon my own journey.
And I don't know if I said,literally, this is how I want to
remember.
So if it's not, don't crack me.
I said something to you like,I'm so happy for you.
I've been wondering whenyou're going to have this conversation
(04:24):
with me, and I wish younothing but the best.
My biggest question was, whyso long?
Like, why did it take you so long?
Because one of the things thatI feel like is if I do my job, and
in some ways, and I'm nottrying to say this in a pejorative
way, part of running a companyis like being a parent, and I want
the best for the people thatcome in and out of our company.
(04:44):
Sometimes the best means theyneed to be somewhere else.
And that oftentimes means Ihave to ask them to leave and they
wind up doing great things.
Other times, the teams that Ineed to explore my own thing or explore
this other opportunity, Inever begrudge them, especially when
they've given so much already.
So I just knew that there wasa lot of emotion and energy around
this and I just said, hey,man, I'm just really happy for you.
(05:06):
And people always wonder,like, what happened to Matthew?
You ever.
I just had a sandwich or tacowith him yesterday.
You guys relax.
We just want to see a car showor something.
You know, there's no animus asfar as I know.
Right.
But I can't say that's alwaysthe case because sometimes people
leave or are asked to leaveand I don't ever talk to them again.
And it makes me wonder a lotabout was there more that was in
(05:27):
the relationship than Ithought or was there less because
I thought we work together andall things come to an end.
But unless I betrayed you orwas disloyal or did something that
you thought was wrong andunethical, why shouldn't we have
a relationship?
But oftentimes that's not thecase at all.
So I just want to just double dip.
On the whole, I'm veryappreciative of the relationship
(05:49):
we've had that's going on overtwo decades from us just meeting
each other as at our centerstudent, instructor, and then continuing
on, working together andgrowing together, doing content and
just evolving.
And again, I'm just superhappy for you now.
When you left, you startedyour own YouTube channel.
You basically took all thethings that you learned about what
(06:10):
it is that you wanted to sayin the world and you did it without
compromise in your own way.
And you started making contentand you had phenomenal success out
of the gate.
Before we get into the all thenew stuff you're doing, take me through
like what you're doing, whatthe expectation was, and how the
Internet responded to thattype of content.
Yeah.
So I started my YouTubechannel in early 2019 and at that
(06:33):
point I'd already been workingat the Future for three years.
So I got my training wheels there.
I got to kind of experimentand learn all about YouTube because
I didn't really have muchexperience in it prior to that.
Obviously before that spentall that time in commercial directing
30 second TV commercial.
So there's a lot of stuff thathelped me when I started.
When I started my YouTubechannel, I was just doing it purely
(06:57):
out of joy.
I Was like, okay, I do thisfor work in my 9 to 5.
What would I want to do on my5 to 9 on the weekends?
And at the time, I wasremodeling one of our bedrooms at
the at home to be a homeoffice for me.
And I did a lot of researchand found some interesting content
(07:17):
around that idea of kind ofsharing your remodel, your.
Your desk setup.
But there wasn't any that kindof fit in the style or voice that
I like.
So I was like, you know what?
Maybe I should do this,because I'm already going to do all
this stuff.
I'm kind of passionate andvery oddly interested in this, so
I'm going to document thiswhole process.
So I kind of rebuilt my homeoffice, documented the whole thing,
(07:40):
and created a YouTube videoaround that.
And when it came out, it didpretty good out of the gate.
And then a week later, I thinkit was like 100,000 views.
And I was perplexed.
I did not expect that at allbecause I felt it was so much of
a personal thing where it'slike, okay, this is my space.
This is my little fun DIY project.
(08:02):
And it kind of feels like, youknow, when people make vacation videos
or fun videos for theirfamily, it kind of felt like that
a little bit.
So I had zero expectationother than I just want to show off
this fun project that I'mdoing on the weekends.
And then probably three monthslater, it might have reached a million
views already.
And I was so surprised,especially because all of the stuff
(08:23):
we were doing at the future Ifelt was so high value.
High level is like, oh mygosh, I would pay for this information.
And the viewership there wasnowhere near what I was getting on
this one single video.
So I was.
I was just so perplexed and so surprised.
And so I was like, okay,people like this stuff.
(08:44):
This is interesting.
I have a voice here thatpeople are interested in.
I want to see.
Is this a fluke or can I do it again?
So I produced a few morevideos kind of around the same topic.
They all hit few million viewseach video.
And I was like, okay, this is wild.
There's something here.
It's not just a fluke.
Like there's a formula here.
I kind of struck a nerve and Ikind of figure something out.
(09:06):
So I kept doing that in thebackground and doing more and more
videos, kind of just taking ahalf step out each video to explore
how big my voice andperspective, how many kind of topics
it can cover under the realmof what it is.
That I do.
And over the years, what I'vediscovered is it kind of felt random
when I was doing it, but whenI look back, it kind of makes sense
(09:28):
because all of it was me justsharing aspects of my life, things
that I like to do, design andbuild and make through the lens of
a designer.
And because of all the thingsthat I've done at the future, learning
how to unpack things and teachthat to people in ways that are digestible
and entertaining, I felt likethat came through with the content
that I was making as well.
(09:49):
The video that you dropped,that skyrocketed, I think surpassed
your expectations, but itcompletely blew me away.
I was in awe because for us, agood video would get, like 30,000
views.
And.
And I always believe what wemake is kind of boring.
It's educational content.
Unless you're running abusiness and you're trying to sort
out one problem that we'retalking about.
(10:10):
No one else was.
No one else would be watching it.
And so it's always, to mysurprise that many, many years later,
we have a couple million subs.
And it's like, I don't evenknow who's here.
Why are you guys here?
But when I watch your video,it ticks all these, like, little
boxes.
Diy Home Improvement asmrMeticulous planning and design.
So there's an aesthetic part.
So you could have tuned in forone and got a bonus 4.
(10:33):
And it was all wrapped inthis, really.
And I know a lot about how you work.
It's.
There's meticulous planningand researching and designing and
working out the problem.
Nothing is by chance.
And every frame, every colorgrade, every shot, and the lighting
is very meticulous.
From, I think, many years ofyou directing commercials and music
videos for other people, wehave to put that insane amount of
(10:55):
planning into it because it'svery expensive to make a mistake,
but probably more so.
It's professionally veryembarrassing to say, like, yeah,
I kind of effed up on that,and that's the best I could do.
Right, right.
You took that same kind ofdiscipline, attention to detail into
making videos for YouTube.
And this banger comes out, andof course, we're all sitting there
thinking, did he crack the DaVinci Code?
(11:16):
Is he going to be able to dothis again?
Next video drops banger andbanger after banger.
It's like, this ain't luck.
This is deliberate, meticulous planning.
We just finished an episodewith Adrian.
He goes through crazy amountsof planning, too.
Must be a Filipino thing,because Matthew's Filipino, too.
That's why we can't do it.
You're screwed and I'm screwed.
I don't have enough of that gene.
(11:37):
Right.
So when we see a video that's10 minutes long based on some general
rules of thumb based on howyou do things, how much work and
man hours is going into itbefore you even get to see this 10
minute video?
It depends, but I would sayit's at least a month, probably three
(11:57):
months.
Oh, my God.
But then some of the latestvideos, probably the last three or
four videos, have been allabout product design.
Yeah.
And that's in.
I'm documenting.
While I'm making andmanufacturing goods, it takes six
months to a year.
Yeah.
So I'm documenting for a whole year.
And then.
And then it comes out.
(12:18):
So that's how long it takes.
Okay.
So when you see really high,high level production, you don't
understand that when you'rewatching it and you're just in awe.
You feel it, but you don'tunderstand it.
Because quite literally, whenI watch you're building the keyboard
series and some of yourindustrial design stuff, I kind of
know what it takes.
You're going through roundsand okay, now we're on a conference
(12:39):
call.
I'm like, oh, my God, we'renot even manufacturing yet.
And they're just giving notesand I'm doing some more research,
I'm building more prototypes,I'm solving a new problem, and the
process takes so long.
I'm just curious, at somepoint, when you get into these projects
that are three, six monthsplus, do you ever get the feeling
like, I'm losing steam andinterest in this, or I'm just a gung
(13:00):
ho about doing it?
Surprisingly, I don't losesteam and interest because with the
nature of a lot of productdesign, it's a lot of hurry and wait.
Where you do these sprints ofwork where you're hyper focused on
something, it's like, allright, I got to figure, finish this
iteration of this prototype,and then it's off to manufacturing
to make the prototype.
(13:20):
And you might have to wait acouple of weeks before you get it
back.
So what I do in those lulltimes is I have another project to
work on.
I see.
So I have a good handful ofprojects that I'm just juggling very
slowly to be able to pause onone and then resume another and then
pause on that.
So they're kind of in a littlebit of a relay race and they're just
(13:42):
going around the track.
And luckily that just keeps Me stimulated.
And it's always fun with thosetypes of projects where I did a lot
of work and I kind of forgetabout it for a couple of weeks, and
then all of a sudden, Ireceive a package and I have a physical
prototype of something, andthen I get reinvented.
Very exciting.
Yes, exciting.
It's like, oh, I get to see itand I get to touch it.
And now it's like, how can Imake this better before we launch
(14:04):
this?
How can I make this better?
And then we do another sprintand then maybe more prototyping or
so.
It keeps things very engagingfor me, especially because there's
something about having atangible, physical product versus,
you know, all the digitalstuff we do on screen.
There's something very rewarding.
(14:24):
And, I don't know, you startto build a lot of energy and excitement
towards this thing that you'regoing to launch.
Mm.
I will talk to you so muchmore about the process and the direction
in which you're going as acontent creator, and also the things
that make you super excited.
But I want to take you back alittle bit.
I want to talk about a littlebit about this idea that you had
(14:46):
shared with us before, whichwas, I wanted to make sure if I could
sustain the living I wasmaking before as a salaried employee.
And that's a pretty reasonable thing.
You make money and you think,I just want to maintain a certain
lifestyle.
I don't want to go backwards.
I can if necessary.
But it starts with a questionlike, I wonder if I can.
(15:06):
And.
And then you.
You leave and you take off.
Tell us what happens then.
Yeah, I think that first yearI was making four times my salary
in revenue, so that was very exciting.
The following year is not asmuch, but I think it's because I
had the overlap of the job,everything at the future, and then
all of this kind of momentumcoming out of it.
(15:28):
Over the past two years, Iwould say things have slowed down,
but in a good way, because Ihave been exploring so much in industrial
design, things that I havenever done before, where I'm not
producing a video that often.
Maybe every three months, I'mproducing a video.
And I think when I first hadleft the future, I was doing at least
(15:50):
one every month.
Yeah.
And each one had a sponsor.
And a lot of that justgenerated a lot of revenue and income
for me.
Now, because my time is spentbehind the scenes working and documenting
stuff, not releasing content.
It's a lot slower, but I kindof like it.
I really appreciate it becauseI'm I don't feel stressed to constantly
(16:11):
feed this content machine.
It's like it comes out when itcomes out.
And luckily, I'm still able tomaintain my lifestyle, healthy, good
lifestyle, and feel veryengaged and focused in the work that
I do where I could give it myattention and not feel like I'm spread
through.
Let me clarify for theaudience in case they just missed
it, because Matthew almostglided right over it, which was he
(16:33):
was hoping to make the sameamount of money and then shortly
thereafter, leaving, doing hisown thing, taking on all the risk.
And Peter Drucker said this,in business, all profit comes from
risk.
The more risks you take, themore profit you have to make.
That's a potential, not a guarantee.
And so you go out instead ofmaking 1x of what he used to make.
And I know what he was paid,so now I know how much money he made.
(16:55):
I won't say he made not twotimes, not three times, but four
times as much money in thefirst year.
So in theory, he could havetaken off the next three years and
been all right.
Yeah, because you were used tomaking that kind of money, right?
Yeah.
And that means you can coast.
So you bought yourself a lotof freedom, and I think that's the
real meaning of wealth.
Not that you have a lot ofmoney, but the freedom to do what
(17:16):
you want.
And now you can say, I canearn as much as I want, but I can
do it on my own timetable.
So here's the big question Ihave for you.
Being almost kind ofengineered from the jump to be a
commercial artist.
You and I, we went to ArtCenter, a place that is really well
known for creating practical,skilled designers who can enter into
(17:37):
the field and make a decent living.
So we're hardwired to work forother people to fulfill the creative
brief.
So what happens to you?
What happens to yourpsychology when there is no creative
brief?
There is no master.
Everything has to come from inside.
How does that feel for you?
Because that's a very, veryradical change from somebody's gonna
tell me, like, there's aproject to do and I'm gonna work
(17:59):
on it versus no more projects.
What am I going to do?
How is that transition likefor you?
That was very refreshing.
I was getting tastes of italong the way.
Right.
Because I was doing this stuffnights and weekends anyway, while
I was working at the future.
But even at the future, I wasexperiencing some of that.
A little taste ofentrepreneurship, a little taste
(18:21):
of, okay, you gave me a lot ofroom at the future to just do whatever
I want pretty much you'relike, okay, make whatever you want
under this umbrella and justtry stuff.
So that was very helpful forme to realize, okay, I have a voice,
even though I'm trying allkinds of different things and, and
I was able to learn.
(18:42):
So I'm a very risk averse person.
I think I told you that when Ihad quit.
And so it felt very calculatedto the point where I have confidence
that if I leave, you know,things will be good for a while,
you know, And I feel eversince I left, I feel that same confidence
where I'm just existing in theworld day to day.
(19:05):
And I kind of look around andall I see are possibilities.
Luckily, I don't have to worryabout the money.
I don't have to worry aboutnecessarily when the next video is
coming out.
Like, I do have timetables andstuff like that, but I'm not stressed
about it.
It's not occupying my mindwhere with a client, you know, there's
weekly deadlines, you know, biweekly deadlines, things that come
(19:26):
up all the time.
So that change of pace wasactually very refreshing for me because
I just create my own deadlinesto a degree.
And luckily things are still happening.
So I'm.
I don't know, I'm verygrateful, I'm very blessed that the
universe is, I feel, is likewhispering in one ear.
And I'm able to kind of flowwith, with all of that currently.
(19:49):
So what you're saying is had Ikept a tighter rope on you all, gave
you strict deadlines and keptbeing the taskmaster, you might not
have tasted the freedom.
That's right.
And then you're like, I'm not leaving.
I don't know what that's like.
Yes.
But it's a smooth transition.
Yes, honey, I screwed up.
I told him I was confident.
I give everybody so much freedom.
That's the thing that we talkabout, though.
I remember this.
And you've.
You've been prettyinstrumental in shaping a couple,
(20:11):
like, big seismic changeswithin my own thinking.
The first time, I can't recallall of them, but I remember one right
now.
Because you're like, chris,what if we just focus on doing just
the future, no more blindservice work.
And it took me a beat.
I'm like, okay, try.
Because we were doing the mathand the logic when we, let's say,
(20:33):
book a $600,000 job, you'renot keeping 600,000.
You might keep 100, 150, butthen the rest of the year, you're
just burning that 150 down tonothing because we're not doing another
project.
Right.
You're just keeping themachine going.
At a point, you kind of getcaught up in just the cycle of sustaining
yourself.
So your framing of thequestion meant if we launched an
educational product because itisn't super expensive for us to produce,
(20:57):
we could make 100,000 or200,000, but almost all of it would
be profit.
And the good news is it's ip,hopefully is a perennial seller and
it can generate long termrevenue, but it's building a library
of stuff.
And that kind of surprisinglyjust messed my brain up in the very
best ways.
And so I do appreciate yousaying things like that.
And so you kind of made mesense this other idea.
(21:20):
But I want to get back to thething that we were just talking about,
which was when we worked forsomeone, agencies, there's always
a master, there's always a client.
And then we started doingcontent for ourselves, which was
radically different.
I remember slowly invitingeach and every one of you into the
circle, whatever that is, totaste the freedom.
What we realized is when youopen the gate, the chickens run.
(21:43):
They don't want to go back inthe cage.
And I'd ask you guys, despiteinvesting almost all of your creative
energy up until this point indeveloping a professional reel to
do work for clients, to theman, to the human, you're like, we
don't want to go back.
Even if it means this isweird, undefined, and it's not as
sexy.
There are big brands attachedto it.
We just don't want to go back.
(22:03):
Take me through a little bitof your thinking then when, when
that door was open and how itfelt because not only you, but Greg
and others were like, yes, wedon't want to go back.
Yeah, I think for me, again, Ijust had full confidence.
A lot of that is owed to youand how you've helped me see possibility
and kind of focus on theabundance mindset rather than scarcity.
(22:29):
Right.
So the whole time, I alwaysfelt like we could always go back
to that.
So I felt like we had a safety net.
So I didn't fear trying new things.
It was more exciting becauseyou know that fear and excitement
feels the same in your body.
Right.
How you look at it determineswhich one you're actually feeling.
And for me, it was mostly excitement.
(22:50):
It's like, this is new territory.
What will this reveal for us?
So I think about it almostlike you're going into a dark room.
No lights are on and you havea flashlight and you're flashing
the light around and slowlybut surely, you know, you're starting
to reveal parts of the roomyou're starting to see and you're
(23:10):
starting to understand what itis that's there.
You might walk in and youmight bump your knee on something
and that might hurt, but youknow that it's there.
Right.
And the more you spend in thisdark room, the more you kind of feel
where's the edges, how bigthis room is, what's actually in
here.
And it felt like so muchpossibility at the time when we were
starting the future, when wewere building the future, because
(23:31):
there was so manypossibilities where we could take
it.
What does the content look like?
What are we going to focus on?
What format does it take?
Right, that's one avenue.
What products does that lead to?
What products can we develop?
What are things that we doevery day that we might take for
granted but could be valuableto somebody else that could be a
source of content or product?
(23:51):
And then what about events?
What about, we have all thisphysical space?
How do we use it?
How do we engage the community?
So all of these things werebrand new versus all of the advertising
work that we had been doing tothat point.
It was, I knew it like theback of my hand.
Everything was, I knew whatwas going to happen in every single
(24:12):
project.
It was just a well oiled machine.
And even though the work wasfun and beautiful, it just felt like
doing the same thing over and over.
And it was nice to trysomething new.
Yeah.
Okay, let's take us now kindof more in into present day.
When you've got your ownchannel out, you're exploring brand
deals, that's how you make money.
(24:32):
And the videos get so manyviews that it's exposing it to so
many folks.
That's great.
Then what was the thing thatled you to the first moment when
you're like, I think I want todevelop some products.
How did that come about andwhy did you decide to go down that
path?
I owe a lot of my success topeople seeing things in me that I
(24:53):
couldn't see for myself.
I think you saw that in me.
A lot of my instructors fromthe past, as I was going through
education, always kind ofpushed me beyond my capacity or what
I felt comfortable in.
And as soon as I had quit myjob at the Future, which I made a
public announcement aboutthat, you know, all kinds of conversations
(25:15):
started happening.
A lot of them were job offersand I'm like, thank you, I appreciate
that.
But not right now.
Like I owe it to myself tojust have downtime do a little bit
of a sabbatical and some soulsearching and see what happens.
But one of those conversationsthat came along was my friends over
at Grovemade.
They make desk accessories andthey're based out of Portland.
(25:35):
They had been sponsoring andhelping out my channel in various
ways over the years.
So I'd been developing arelationship with them for about
three years at that point.
And they asked me, hey, wouldyou like to develop a product with
us?
I highly respected them atthat point.
I love the goods that theymake and because they were inviting
me into this process, I wasvery excited to join.
(25:59):
Just like I was explainingright before, new things excite me,
new problems.
Even though it can be a littlescary, I don't see it that way.
I see it as pure possibilities.
I don't know what it's goingto lead me to, but I'm open to take
the ride and see where ittakes me.
So that was a two year journeywith them of doing a little kind
of investigation, doing alittle bit of just exploring what
(26:22):
products it could be.
They visited me a coupletimes, I visited them and over a
two year process we developeda product that we call the Note Taking
Kit, which is just a way tohelp you capture, store and recall
your ideas.
And that was an amazingprocess to me because I got to watch
Masters at Work, somethingthat I felt like I knew nothing about,
(26:44):
was always curious aboutbecause I love learning about how
things are made and I was justa sponge in that situation.
I gave what I could as adesigner as my perspective.
And I think one of the reasonswhy they worked with me is obvious
because of my content.
And they liked the perspectivethat I had and they felt there was
alignment there.
And even though I didn't haveany experience in industrial design
(27:06):
or designing products, theyvalued my opinion and perspective.
So they invited me into thatprocess and that's really what set
me off down this path.
There was a lot of obvioussynergies between the kinds of DIY
home improvement estheticthings that you're doing that would
make a lot of sense forGrovemade to kind of sponsor you
and as being fans of the channel.
(27:27):
This is the power of, I guess,inbound content, content marketing
where you attract the kinds ofpeople who have shared ideas or philosophies
as you.
You're not actively chasingthem down.
Ultimately, instead ofchasing, you're choosing who you
want to work with.
And I know you're veryparticular as to who you align with
and kinds of things thatyou'll talk about and never Do I
(27:48):
get this feeling from youlike, I'm going to take this because
it's cash grab.
In fact, you're quite the opposite.
Like, I'm not sure that's agood fit for me.
And I think making smartdecisions like that have allowed
you to grow in the way thatyou want to align yourself with the
partners that actuallycontribute to your own growth.
And for them seeing thatwithin you to say, hey, and I can
see it from their point ofview, man, we got this guy who can
make banger videos.
(28:08):
So whatever he touches, it'sgoing to get a lot of eyeballs on.
The next evolution to thatrelationship is why don't you develop
a product and then we alreadyknow you're going to be able to tell
a great story behind it andget lots of views.
So there's a natural built inmarketing device that feels very
organic to who you are.
I think if I'm not mistaken,you guys want to visit me at the
(28:31):
studio.
We're still in Pandemic.
I think we're all messed upand we're talking about things and
you're doing some userresearch, right?
Same, same people.
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay, so even then you werestill working despite certain limitations
and figuring it out.
Okay, so one journey, one dooropens, you go through that, another
door opens, another door opens.
And yeah, I don't know if youever get this feeling, because I
(28:53):
do.
Do you ever get the momentwhere you're like, is this a dream
I'm living?
Because how is this happeningfor me right now?
And if you do, can you tell mea little bit about that experience?
If you don't, that's okay too.
Yeah, no, I feel that wayevery day.
Every time I pause and thinkabout what it is I'm doing, you know,
I just reflect on how gratefulI am to be in this position, to be
(29:16):
doing the things that I'mdoing, to have the creativity, the
body and everything that I'mdoing, like my health, wealth, and
luckily, just being able toexpress my creativity in these forms
and fashion.
I'm grateful for that every day.
And I reflect on that often.
So I do feel like it's a dream.
It doesn't make sense.
Sometimes I look back, it'slike, how did this happen?
(29:38):
How did this even happen?
But then I tried to rationalize.
It's like, actually it makesperfect sense.
And it's this weird kind ofdichotomy of going back and forth,
of, I'm so grateful, do I evendeserve this?
And it's like, of course itMakes perfect sense.
You did all this hard work andall of these dots connect, right?
Matthew, I agree with you.
We can simultaneously live inthis dual state where we're like,
(30:01):
what the fudge is happening?
But this is the residual ofall this planning and preparation.
And so people tell me, like,hard work and preparation increases
the surface area of luck to happen.
And it's like there's moreopportunities for luck to hit.
You've done all that work.
Now I want to get to the superexciting part.
You are developing a line ofkeyboards and other accessories.
(30:22):
So the accessories are gettingmore complicated.
Now.
It used to be things withalmost no moving parts, and now there's
lots of moving parts.
And I remember I was chattingwith one of our friends and colleagues,
Ben Burns, who I thinkintroduced you to mechanical keyboards.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, I have a hundred.
You're insane.
You guys have a sickness, bothof you.
(30:42):
And then I'm looking at himlike, I appreciate the video.
I appreciate all the clicky,cocky sounds.
And my son is super addictedto these things.
Well, you guys are crazy.
I just need a keyboard that works.
And then I find that there's alaunch happening.
Then I'm asleep.
Not literally, but.
And I check in.
I'm like, hey, I'm ready tobuy it.
It sold out in, like, seconds.
It felt like, yeah, right.
(31:03):
It was gone in a minute.
It was like, what?
So I messaged you and you'relike, hey, Chris, I'll build one
for you.
Because what I don't evenrealize is you don't just order,
you got to build it.
Yeah, but that's when I tapped out.
I'm like, dude, I cannot, Sol.
It's too much.
I like this.
I can appreciate it, but I can't.
And you did me one.
One further where like, let'stalk it through.
I'll build it for you.
And then I get this really beautiful.
(31:24):
And it weighs a ton.
And, you know, there's a thingabout weight and quality, the sense
that the heavy things arebuilt better.
And I'm using it.
At first I'm like, I miss myfull size keyboard and everything.
I'm using it, I'm using it.
And it's like, it.
It is highly addictive andsoothing to use a mechanical keyboard
that's been tuned to exactlywhat you need and want.
(31:46):
And now I feel like I'm goingto go down a dark rabbit hole or
something.
Which you, I think, wasintroduced to and fell down yourself,
right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So for people who don'tunderstand this, why the heck would
anyone want a keyboard that'shard to get, that takes hours to
build, and may not even go right?
Because you're like, hey, yougot to test everything, right?
Why would people want that?
Describe that feeling to them,that joy.
(32:09):
Yeah.
I think a lot of folks like totinker, right?
And sometimes that's buildingand restoring an old car, sometimes
that's doing a DIY project,sometimes that's working on a puzzle
while you're drinking wine atnight to wind down.
And to me, keyboards are verysimilar to that.
I got introduced to keyboardsabout three years ago, maybe four
(32:30):
years now, and.
And I had built out everythingin my home that I could possibly
be building, and I ran out ofstuff to tinker with.
And so this had just come atthe right time.
It was like, okay, mechanicalkeyboards, give me the parts.
I'll kind of figure this out.
And so it's intimidating atfirst because it can be overwhelming,
like anything new.
But once you build onekeyboard, you get to experience it,
(32:52):
and you get to break it downand modify it and build it again
and then build it again.
And then maybe you buy asecond keyboard and build it a different
way, and you'll realize thatdepending on the design of it, the
engineering of it, whatswitches you use, what keycaps, you
can change the aesthetic,sound, and feel.
So it just.
There's a lot of possibilitiesthat you can explore within a custom
(33:13):
mechanical keyboard.
That makes it very fun if youlike to tinker, right?
And then the nice thing is youget to use it as a device for your
computer.
And I do a lot of writing.
I do a lot of stuff on thecomputer, so it's.
It's a joy to type on for me.
So it's.
It's fun to.
To build these and then get touse them after.
I think industrial designers,the really good ones, obsess over
(33:35):
every little nuance anddetail, from the reaction time to
the noise it makes, howsquishy it is, just amount of resistance.
And you describe certainthings to me that I just couldn't
get until you start to use it.
Oftentimes when you type on aMac keyboard, because of the scissor
spring or whatever they've gotin there, I'm never sure, like, did
I hit it and I had to stop and check?
(33:56):
No, I hit it, and you keep going.
But with the mechanicalkeyboard, the one that you set up
for me as a resistance point,it's harder to accidentally hit it
so you can hover over it, butthen you really have to push it.
And you feel the resistance,and there's a little bit of change.
And when you told me about itwhen I went to use it, I'm like,
oh, I now know what you'retalking about.
So there's something verygratifying, knowing very well I did
(34:18):
what I did, and I don't haveto worry that I didn't do what I
did.
And I know that sounds stupid.
Until you get yourself amechanical keyboard, it's like crack,
guys.
It really is.
It's.
It's a fun, tactileexperience, and there's just a nice
kind of kinetic energy thatyou connect with when you're.
You're typing.
And, I don't know, it does getvery addicting.
So tell me a little bit, ifyou can, about the business structure
(34:40):
of this, because people are listening.
Cool.
Cool.
I got a channel doing brand collabs.
I'm having products designed,so correct me if I'm wrong.
It's your concept.
You designed it.
You specced everything.
They build it, and then do youget a piece of it?
How does that work?
How do you make money fromdoing something like this?
Yeah.
So I've worked with a lot ofdifferent partners over the past
(35:02):
three years, and they all kindof break down a little differently.
But usually what happens is Ienter in as a designer, and my role
as a designer sometimes isvery minimal, where aspects of the
product are already figured it out.
Are figured out, and I'm thereselecting very particular, you know,
materials or colorways.
And then other times, like thekeyboard, the encore keyboard, they
(35:25):
just give me carte blanche.
We kind of do a kickoff call,and they say, here's what we would
like it to be.
And I say, yep, I'm aligned there.
And then they just say, go.
And then so I design it from scratch.
I kind of pass it back andforth with them because I'm not an
expert in building any of that stuff.
I had to learn CAD modeling.
I had to learn a lot of thesethings along the way, and.
And luckily, my partners atMode were just very gracious in teaching
(35:49):
me things that I didn't know before.
So where there's moments of alot more authorship where I'm taking
a lot more risk, that's whereI would get more of the pie.
So with a lot of theseproducts that I've worked on, I usually
get a royalty percentage asthe designer of the product.
So as long as we're sellingthe product, I'll get a cut of that
thing.
(36:09):
And, yeah, it's nice, becausesome of These products I'll build
once, and then we'll domultiple runs of those things.
So then I just keep gettingthe royalty payments for those.
So that's.
That's nice.
And I've learned a lot in thepast three years.
And again, I've just been sideby side with a lot of these experts.
Now I'm kind of moving intothe space where I'm wondering, could
(36:31):
I just do it all on my own?
Do I need the partner?
And can I just take the whole piece?
And so I'm doing a lot ofresearch these days, looking for
manufacturers, talking todifferent folks, and I'm starting
to see the dots that I can connect.
And I'm starting to get thatexcitement again, even though it
was very intimidating at first.
The reason why I partneredwith a lot of these brands to manufacture
(36:53):
these things for me is becauseI knew nothing.
And I just wanted to be thesponge in that situation.
I just want to learn now.
I have a lot more confidencewhere I feel like I know what it
takes.
I've done this a couple timeswith the help of experts.
Can I do this myself?
And I do have that confidence,and I'm feeling that trajectory is
kind of pulling me in thatdirection now.
(37:14):
Okay, so you're increasing theamount of risk that you're willing
to take on and kind oflearning as you're going to kind
of figure out what thepitfalls are.
I think I encourage you to do it.
There's one potential pitfall,which is this beautiful lifestyle
business you've been able tobuild for yourself will most likely
be going away.
Yes.
Because the minute you starttaking on inventory, you're like,
(37:35):
now putting money into it.
There's fulfillment, customer service.
So now it's a business.
And you're going to have to.
Because I know you as thisethical person, you can't just ship
it and abandon it if itdoesn't feel like right anymore.
Yes.
You kind of stuck with it fora while.
Yes.
So I'm very aware of that.
And the thing that I've beenso grateful for and been trying to
maintain for these past threeyears is that lifestyle.
(37:57):
Yeah.
Where if tomorrow I don't wantto work on any video content, like,
I'll just pick up and go anddo something else.
Yeah.
And I value that a lot.
I've been meditating on thisas I inch closer to thinking about
this, and I'm still lookingfor ways where I might be able to
leverage somebody else'sresources to be able to handle the
things that I might not excelat or want to do.
(38:20):
So I could use something likea 3PL to do my fulfillment for me.
What is the 3PL?
A third party logistics.
Oh, look at, everybody knowsabout me.
Yeah, there's like a warehousewhere like Amazon has 3 PL, like
they will do all thefulfillment for you.
Right.
And so I'm looking at optionslike that.
I'm just trying to understandthe playing field.
(38:42):
I'm trying to understand whereit's going to hurt.
And I'm warming up to the ideaof taking on a little bit more of
that pain.
The things that I.
I don't necessarily lovedoing, but I could see me getting
involved and actually liking it.
So I'm warming up to it.
I'm not fully there yet, butlike I said earlier, I'm risk averse
and I'm just taking baby stepstowards this direction.
(39:03):
Well, if the past is anyindicator of the future, I think
you're going to do well andyou'll do all the research, the design
and you'll figure it out.
I have a couple more questionsfor you.
One thing I wanted to ask youwas what's the one thing that really
surprised you about this wholejourney and going on your own?
Hmm.
The biggest thing thatsurprised me when I left the future
(39:27):
and went on my own was what Iwas able to do after.
And all the things I did afterwere things I hadn't done before.
So those were.
That was the most exciting thing.
None of these things were planned.
Like I barely know what I'mdoing next week.
I don't have long term vision,like I don't have a five year plan
(39:49):
or anything like that.
I kind of just listen to myintuition and my gut and I really
let my curiosity and passionjust pull me as hard as possible.
So these curiosities.
When I left the future, mygoal at the time was to become a
better storyteller in whateverform that would be.
And the universe kind of answered.
(40:09):
And our friends over atwebflow had called me up and they
said, hey, do you want todirect a documentary for us?
And I said, you know, I'm nota documentary director.
But they saw that possibilityin me.
And I was like, okay, this is new.
It aligns with my goal, whichis just to become a better storyteller.
Let me try it in this format.
And we worked on a multi partseries called Generation no Code.
(40:31):
And that was fun.
That was incredible.
It was at the time we werejust inching out of the pandemic,
got to travel, I got to meet alot of Designers John Saunders, who
you know, great guy, great people.
And so that was a greatproject for me.
The thing with Grove madegetting into product design things
I had never anticipated for myself.
I never saw myself doing these things.
(40:52):
Yet there I was.
And now something that I'mdoing now with the keyboard, that
started as a pandemic hobbythat I got really passionate about,
turned into products andthings that I'm making expressions
that I wanted to see in theworld that I didn't see before.
So it's just amazing whathappens when you allow possibility
(41:13):
to take over and you haveconfidence in the things that you're
doing.
There's one thing I wanted tohighlight real quickly.
You can respond to it or not,and then I'll get to another question.
But I think your approach tomaking content is a little bit more
akin to how Stephen Barlett,the Diary CEO person, does it.
There's a lot of planning,slight research.
There's a lot of AB testingfor titles and thumbnails before
(41:36):
anything is made.
And I admire the amount ofenergy and focus and intentionality
you put behind your thingsbecause I can see it every time you
drop a video.
There's Instagram posts,there's reels and cut downs, trailers
and all this stuff to drivethat first day drop number and really
pushing hard.
We're a volume kind of operation.
I have an idea.
(41:56):
We just make it.
There's not a lot of planningor thinking.
Things go out, we adjust onthe fly.
That's kind of our style.
But I can also really, reallyappreciate the amount of focus, energy
put on it.
Because if a video doesn'tdrop for like once a month or every
other month.
Yeah.
It's got to work.
Otherwise, like shoot.
Yeah.
You're going to.
If you're going to waitanother three months before you see
the next thing.
For me.
Right.
Yeah.
And so I just wanted toappreciate and acknowledge that.
(42:17):
So some of you are like, yeah,I'll just start out tomorrow, have
a multimillion viewed video.
You might, but you got to putin the work.
I think you could get lucky.
Yeah.
You know, each video I treatlike a launch.
Yeah.
So with working in thecommercial advertising space, we
spent many months working onthe launch, usually of a product
to announce something, workingat the future, working with Ben and
(42:39):
the folks there.
When we would launch a newdigital product, it was the same
thing.
Right.
We have a hard date.
We have to have all theseassets and all these points that
are all pushing down thisfunnel, different messaging points
so that there's a lot ofexcitement when it actually drops.
And I think about creatingvideos in the same way.
It is a launch for me.
It's a big thing.
It's not just like a casual,like I'm uploading today.
(43:01):
It's like, no, this is a launch.
Like I treat it as such.
Okay, this one's gonna be alittle harder, so take as much time
you need to reflect on this.
I'd love for you to reflect onthis storied career that you have
working with some of thebiggest brands in the world.
And I think it was a beautifulway to kind of end one chapter, to
finish a video for Coldplay,to do this amazing video for Xbox.
(43:23):
And then now content, nowproduct, brand deals.
What are the three biggestlessons that you've learned that
you wish you could tell Mattat 21, they could be on anything.
It could be aboutrelationships, health, wealth.
It could be about taking theshot earlier or believing in yourself
or grabbing the lion orwhatever it is you want to say.
(43:45):
I'd love for you to look atthe camera and say, here are three
of the lessons that I wish Iknew when I was 21 and just this
is your TedX moment.
I wouldn't change who I was at 21.
I wouldn't change mytrajectory at all.
But I will share the threelessons that I've learned.
I think the first lesson thatI've learned on this journey of exploring
(44:08):
possibility for the past fewyears is lean into your curiosity.
I think most people aresurface level curious or they might
do a Google search worth ofsomething or try something or a surface
level, but never go deepenough where they're finding interesting
novel perspectives orviewpoints or information that most
(44:32):
of the world doesn't have.
So when you lean into yourcuriosity, you discover all of these
beautiful things that feelslike you're treasure hunting.
A lot of the projects thatI've been on that curiosity has unpacked
so many bits of novelinformation for me that get me excited,
that get me creatinginteresting features or aspects to
(44:54):
the products or projects thatI'm working on.
So if you lean into yourcuriosity, it's you'll be finding
treasure all day.
And when you find thattreasure, then you get to share that
with the world.
And that is a big filter thatI use when I create my content, which
is if it was novel and new tome, that means it's going to be interesting
for somebody else.
(45:15):
So those are the things that Itend to include in my video.
Things that don't have that Itend to edit out Lean into your curiosity,
because that, I think, is a superpower.
I think the recap on theleaning into your curiosity is.
It's like what we do is wetalk about the T scale, where you
can know a little bit about alot of things or a lot about one
(45:36):
thing.
And it's the Bruce Lee quote.
I don't feel the person who'spracticed 10,000 kicks one time,
but I do fear the man who'spracticed one kick 10,000 times.
That repetition breeds skill,Skill breeds confidence.
And then eventually you startto know those patterns and you can
innovate from that.
So follow that and take it tothe N3.
I always say, reach theterminus of what it is that you want
to get into.
(45:56):
And that's what I do.
And then I'm bored.
And then move on to the next.
And move on to the next thing?
Yeah, to that point.
Moving on to the next thing.
The second thing that I wouldgive advice or something that I've
learned over these past fewyears is that everything adds up.
So the thing that you're doingright now, the thing that you're
exploring right now, Sometimespeople project too much in the future
(46:19):
and think, am I wasting my time?
Am I doing this?
And then it's not going toresult in any money or it's not going
to result in a career.
I never look at stuff like that.
I just keep going.
And sometimes things don'tclick right away, but it might take
a few years where all of asudden the dots connect.
(46:40):
And I've experienced that alot in the past few years where there's
ideas for things that I'vehad, things that I've noticed for
products, but I never had theskills for it.
Fast forward a few yearslater, once I've learned more skills.
Now, these perspectives andthings that I've learned, features
that I've seen elsewhere thatI've wanted to infuse, I can express
(47:00):
that because I now have thetools and dots to connect that I
previously didn't have before.
So I think everything adds up.
So don't stress out too muchabout what's going to happen in the
future.
I think just focusing anddoing the thing that you're doing
right now very well andearnestly is key.
Excellent.
You got number three?
Yeah, number three.
(47:23):
If someone else can do it, socan you.
That was the biggest lessonthat I felt like I had learned and
what gave me full confidenceto leave the future.
I saw Chris build the futurefrom nothing, from zero subscribers
up to over 2 million now.
And it was there's somethingto say where if there's somebody
(47:43):
in your proximity or somebodythat you can relate to or see and
you see them build upsomething, all of a sudden that possibility
becomes very clear in yourmind and you start to ask yourself
if they can do it, why not me?
And I think seeing people likeyou and seeing other like different
content creators mature anddevelop and explore different routes
(48:05):
over the years, it gave me alot of possibilities in my mind.
Like I'm actually pretty wellequipped to tackle these things.
If they can do it, why not me?
Right.
And so that was a very big lesson.
So it's one of the things thatI'm very appreciative of kind of
growing up and maturing.
So one of the reasons why I dothe content that I do is so that
(48:26):
I get show people the possibilities.
If I can figure it out fromzero, you could do it as well.
And that's why I share thethings that I do.
Okay, two personal questionsreal quick before we get out of here
is what's going on with your Bboy stuff?
That's the first one.
Yeah.
So I'm still, I'm still dancing.
I've been dancing since 1999.
(48:47):
So I've been dancing for along time and it's been a really
big part of my life because Idiscovered dancing at a time where
I was, you know, the scrawny90 pound kid, didn't have a lot of
confidence, but that gave me acertain perspective and attitude.
There's a whole kind ofculture and lifestyle that you have
to be kind of aggressive,engaged and expressive.
(49:09):
That just helped me slowly,over time, build that confidence.
So that was a second life thatI kind of straddled for a long time.
And interestingly enough, overmy career I've hired and worked with
a lot of people that I've metthrough the dance scene and a lot
of those folks are doinginteresting things themselves.
So dance is really importantto me and I still get to practice
probably once a week with friends.
(49:30):
Are you doing the dancecompetitions with the crew?
I am.
You are.
It hurts.
It hurts.
It's not the same.
Time catches us, catches everybody.
No one's immune to that.
Yeah, but I'm not trying to compete.
I'm just trying to be creative.
All I care about is it's aform of expression for me.
So I take off all the pressureof competition and I just, I just
want to dance.
(49:51):
Okay.
Yeah.
Hot take.
You ready?
I don't want you to overthinkthis one.
We can edit this out if itdoesn't work out.
The Australian B girl who didher thing, was she a troll or was
she being super creative or something?
Something in between.
I think there's a lot of roomfor what she did at the Olympics.
If.
I think most people just sawthat and made a headline judgment
(50:16):
about dancing in its current state.
If that's all you focus on,you missed out on all the beautiful
performances that happenedduring the Olympics.
And if you think that what shewas doing was trolling, then you
obviously have not spent anytime in B boy culture and you don't
understand a breaking cultureand all the room there is for creativity.
(50:41):
So she, she took a big gamble,took her shot, and people are misinterpreting
it.
I think she did her thing.
Yeah.
I think she just did her thing.
And I don't.
I mean, that's.
There's a lot of debatewhether the breaking should even
be in the Olympics.
Right.
But it's a sport.
If you just look at thedefinition of the sport.
Right.
People competing forentertainment, I think that's like
(51:04):
the most basic version of a sport.
But there are so many thingslike that.
But with that breaking is partart and then part sport.
Yeah.
And for me, I'm mostinterested in the creative aspects.
Maybe it's just because ofwhere I'm at in my life and the competitive
stuff, that's cool.
But it, it doesn't interest meas much.
Okay.
(51:24):
I've also witnessed you gothrough some transformations, not
just in creativity, design andexpressions of what you can do, but
physically as a student.
You were physically a certain way.
And, and then I remember therewas a summer somewhere with you and
Chris O'Neill and likeeverybody's trying to get into shape
and it was like a six packcompetition and you got ripped.
You got ripped.
(51:46):
Where are you on your journeyto physical fitness and all the crazy
things you could do?
The flag pole you could do.
I don't know.
What, what do you call thatthing when you're just floating in
air with your hands on the bar?
Yeah, that's a flag.
Is that a flag like this way?
Not, not sideways.
Oh, a front lever.
Front lever.
I didn't even know the namesof things.
Yeah, he's showing me how todo the front lever.
I'm like, I can't do the front lever.
Can you still do the different lever?
I don't know.
(52:06):
I haven't tried in a long time.
But I work, I still work outpretty regularly.
It just, it's important to meto, I think, be healthy.
Because if my body is healthyand my mind is healthy, then everything
just works together.
Yeah.
And if one thing is lagging inyour life, then it will hurt and
kind of become toxic to theother thing.
So.
Yeah.
So I'm gonna just say thislady, she's happily married, but
(52:28):
underneath that, he's a specimen.
Those are words that Mo would use.
He's a specimen.
We won't ask him to take offhis shirt right now, but we're good.
We'll just assume it's notthat kind of show.
That's a different show.
That's after hours.
Everybody subscribe to thechannel to get that deep cut.
I'm just kidding.
It's not going to happen.
You don't have to subscribe to anything.
Matthew, if people want tokeep in touch with you, I know the.
The Instagram account modmusings.
(52:49):
Right.
Is there other accounts we canfollow or.
Yeah.
Where to direct us to where weneed to go?
Yeah.
So you can find me on allsocials at Matthew and Cena.
Matthew and Cena.com and thenmy design studios, Modmusings.com
and Mod Musings on Instagram.
Wonderful.
I just feel like we've hadthis conversation already because
I just know you so well, but Ikind of looked in the records like
(53:11):
we haven't had this conversation.
So it's not recorded?
No, it's never been recorded.
Just in my mind, this podcasthas happened many times before.
I'm glad that we got to do it now.
So now you guys know Matthewis alive.
Well, he's not buried in the desert.
That's right.
And he's got this wholethriving other career and arc.
And I can't wait to see whatthe next five years hold for for
him.
And I want to say this in closing.
(53:31):
The future is bright, thefuture is expanding, and the future
is in really good hands withpeople like him.
Thanks for joining us.
If you haven't already,subscribe to our show on your favorite
podcasting app and get newinsightful episodes from us every
week.
(53:51):
The Future podcast is hostedby Chris.
Doe and produced and edited byRich Cardona Media.
Thank you to Adam Sanborn forour intro music.
If you enjoyed this episode,then do us a favor by reviewing and
rating.
Our show on Apple Podcasts.
It will help us grow the showand make future episodes that much
better.
(54:12):
If you'd like to support the show.
And invest in yourself whileyou're at.
It, visit thefuture.com andyou'll find video.
Courses, digital products, anda bunch of helpful resources about
design in the creative business.
Thanks again for listening,and we'll see you next time.
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