337 - Empathy in Business: Nice or Necessary? - With Maria Ross - The Futur with Chris Do

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Curiosity is the number onetrait of empathic people, because
they don't guess what yourpoint of view is. They ask you. I'm
Maria Ross, and you'relistening to the Future.

(00:20):
Okay, Maria, I'm happy to haveyou on the show. I've done a little
bit of research, but let'sjust have it from. From your point
of view, your lens, and startthere. Please introduce yourself
and then tell us a little bitof your story and we'll jump into
it.
I will. So I am a speaker, anauthor, a workshop facilitator, and
an empathy advocate. And Ibelieve that leaders, cultures, and

(00:44):
brands can achieve radicalsuccess through empathy. And I came
at that work through a longcareer in marketing and then running
my own brand consultancy since2008. So I come at it from a brand
angle. So that's why it'sgreat to talk to you and talk about
this here. But I really try tohelp leaders and teams understand

(01:06):
what empathy is and what itisn't so that they can leverage it
in an effective way in theworkplace. And really, my sneaky
mission overall is to make theworld a more empathetic place. I'm
just starting at work wherepeople spend the bulk of their time
and they can practice thatskill which will spill over into
their personal lives and intotheir communities.
Okay, wonderful. I'm going toask, while we're having this conversation,

(01:30):
if at all possible, if you canframe this for maybe not so much
like big environments, becausethe people who are listening to this,
they're running much smalleroperations, how they could possibly
use empathy in clientinteractions, or just with their
team of two or three or fivepeople, not giant corporations, where.
I think there's a real dilemmathat's going on there.
Yeah, well. Well, the dilemmaexists for everybody, actually. So

(01:52):
it's whether I'm talking to asolopreneur who has. Maybe they're
not a solopreneur, they're asmall business owner. They have a
team of five. Or I'm talkingto a CEO of a. Of a larger company
or a CEO of a startup. It'salways there because it's wherever
we have humans interactingwith other humans. It doesn't really
matter what size yourorganization is.
Okay, wonderful. Let's go withwhat it is and what it's not.

(02:15):
So when I started writing thefirst empathy book, the Empathy Edge,
it was actually the third bookthat I wrote. And I was really diving
into empathy because I wasdisheartened by the examples of leadership
in our world and what somecompanies and Brands and business
owners were doing and how theywere behaving, especially since I
had a young child and I wasreading him books about compassion

(02:37):
and empathy and collaboration.But the leaders that had the headlines
were not really those modelsat all. And I got really frustrated
by that. And I thought, firstI thought, what's the point of teaching
my son about empathy andcompassion if this is the world he's
growing up in? But secondly, Iknew from my work, working with really
great brand clients, wonderfulmission driven people, I knew that

(03:01):
there were brands and therewere leaders out there, there were
small business owners, therewere creatives who were winning with
empathy, who were able tounderstand how to see things from
someone else's point of viewand move forward together to create
something connective andengaging. So I dug into the research
and I found all the researchthat showed that empathy is not just

(03:21):
good for society. When itcomes to business. No matter what
size business you are, whetheryou're working yourself one on one
with clients, whether you're alarge corporation, it boosts engagement,
it boosts performance, itboosts innovation on the external
brand side, it boosts customerloyalty, customer revenue, evangelism,

(03:42):
word of mouth, all of thesethings. We can dig into the data
if you, if you want to gothere. But I was delighted to find
that there is a business casefor empathy. And that was my first
empathy book, the EmpathyEdge. So that came out right before
the pandemic. And what empathyis through that lens is being able
to see, understand, and whereappropriate, feel another person's

(04:04):
perspective and use thatinformation to act with compassion.
So compassion is empathy inaction. You can have empathy, but
if you don't take a next rightstep together with that person, it's
kind of a wasted emotion, It'sa wasted practice. So I like to talk

(04:26):
to people that are a littleskeptical about empathy, people that
are more left brain, they'renot as touchy feely, right? And say,
empathy is not crying on thefloor with someone. That's not what
empathy is. Empathy is amethod of information gathering.
I try to understand yourperspective, I get curious, I actively
listen and I try to see whatyou're seeing. I shy away from the

(04:49):
term walk in someone else'sshoes because it's still you walking
in someone else's shoes. Butone analogy that really works well
is have you ever been at thetop of a skyscraper and they have
those big binoculars that youhave to put money in, so you're looking
through it and you go, oh mygosh, Maria, you have to see this.
This is amazing. And I come inand I look at what you're seeing.

(05:11):
That's empathy. That's mebeing able to understand what you're
seeing, what you're thinking,your context. It doesn't mean I'm
just a nice person. Being niceis not the same as seeing someone
else's point of view. Itdoesn't mean I have to cave in to
your unreasonable demands. Ifyou're a client or a colleague, I
can find a way forward withyou, and it doesn't mean I have to

(05:33):
agree with you. I can sit andlisten and understand your context
and say, wow, I never thoughtof it that way. I still don't agree.
But I can see a newperspective now that I couldn't before.
And when we're able to dothat, we're able to sort of put our
own ego aside and say, let mesee what the world is like through

(05:54):
this person's eyes. And so Iended up writing the second book,
the Empathy Dilemma, becausepeople said, great, we're on board.
We want to be more humancentered. But here's where it gets
hard, here's where it getschallenging. And so the Empathy Dilemma,
the current book, is actuallyfor the converts. It's how do you
balance empathy with achievinghigh performance, with dealing with

(06:18):
the needs of your people, andwith maintaining your own personal
boundaries and not having tobe a doormat for. For people.
So before we can run withdilemma, we need to sit with edge.
We need to learn to walk andcrawl a little bit here. When I used
to teach at Art center to mydesign students about sequential
design, I said, well, what arethe two words we hold so precious

(06:39):
in our language about what itmeans to be a creative? And we come
to the same two words almostevery time. And the two words, no
surprise, one of them isimagination. We need the ability
to see things that have notbeen been shown to us before. Okay,
cool. And then we have to haveempathy because we're telling stories,
we're creating characters thatwe could never possibly inhabit.

(06:59):
So we have to really try ourbest to see the world from their
perspective. And here's theweird thing. Creative folks, at least
the ones that have rubbed upagainst me into my world actually
are very low in empathy. Andyou would think they should score
really high on that thing. Andthere's a couple of ways I look at
that, and I want to bring itup to you to get your perspective

(07:20):
on it.
Yeah, I have a theory on that,but go ahead.
Okay. You want to share yourtheory first?
No, I Want, I want to listenfirst. I want to hear what you have
to say.
All right, so when I dosequential design, we're drawing
storyboards so frames thatkind of look like the what you're
going to shoot and produce fora film or a TV show and ask them
to tell the story of thesecharacters that they themselves cannot

(07:41):
understand. And so like saythat like you're a 30 year old straight
guy and there's a story abouta 16 year old girl who's like dealing
with gender identity orwhatever it is, and they tell the
story still from theperspective of a 30 year old straight
guy. What do you think shehears? What do you think she feels?
Because when you're tellingher story, you need to honor that

(08:01):
her feelings and emotions toground it in some kind of reality.
And they have a really hardtime doing this. The classic example
too is when I tell people,draw a scene and show me what it
looks like to prepare forwork. From the time in which you
wake up, this is a classicassignment. And show me your morning
routine. They almost alwaysshow it from literally their point

(08:24):
of view. So if you're 6 foottall, the eyeline is always the 6ft
tall. If you're 4ft tall, it'salways. They don't pause and say,
I wonder what it feels like tolook at this world from the dust
mites that live underneathyour bed. Or what does your toothbrush
feel in the morning when yougrab it the way you do and you shove
it in your mouth. So we gothrough these exercises and they

(08:45):
have a really hard time tryingto see the world from that pov. What
is your theory?
So, so many things to talkabout, unpack in that statement.
So number one, I think we alsoneed to understand the difference
between the two kinds ofempathy. There's cognitive empathy
where we're using our brain toexactly what you're saying, try to
imagine what it might be like.That's when we're using our head

(09:07):
to try to understand whatsomeone's reality or experience is.
Effective empathy, oremotional empathy is when you actually
feel what the other person'sfeeling. For me, it shows up as whenever
I'm a huge dog lover andwhenever I pass a missing dog poster,
I immediately tear up becauseI can connect with that feeling of

(09:28):
loss and helplessness and justdespair if something happened to
my dog. For some people it's,you know, someone comes raging upset
into your office and all of asudden your heart rate starts going
up, your palms start gettingsweaty, you start getting anxious
listening to the person. Sobeing able to engage both of those
things or even just one ofthose things. For some people, access

(09:49):
to empathy comes through thecognitive side. They're very analytical,
they're not very emotional,and that's okay. Empathy looks different
depending on ourneurodiversity. And so it can still
lead you to an act ofcompassion. It could still lead you
to what's the next rightthing? Maybe it's, oh, I know I need
to just give this person spaceto vent, or I know I just need to

(10:13):
offer a hug, or I know I justneed to offer a wow, that must really
be hard right now. You canstill determine what that compassionate
action is through cognitiveempathy. But there's two kinds. And
I would submit that what'smissing sometimes with creatives,
a few things, but to thatpoint in particular is there's not
a connection to the feelings.Let me see things from this point

(10:36):
of view. But even if I'venever been a 16 year old girl, what
does it feel like to feelawkward? What does it feel like to
be scared? What does it feellike to be insecure? There's things
in your own life you can drawfrom to tap into that emotion. I
do theater and acting in myspare time, which I don't have any
of anymore. But when I do,that's part of the exercise. It's

(10:59):
not just how would this personact or think or what are they doing,
it's also what they'refeeling. And even if I've never been
that in my life, I can saythey're feeling fear right now. When
is a moment that I have feltfear? I did an independent student
film years ago, before I had akid, and I was supposed to be playing

(11:21):
a mom whose son and husbandhad died in a car accident. At that
time, I couldn't relate. Butyou know what I could relate to?
I loved my dog like my kid. Sowhat did I tap into? I tapped into
my dog dying in a car crashbecause that was the feeling that
I was trying to evoke withinmyself and try to understand. And

(11:43):
as you know, as a master ofdesign and a master of brand, it's
not just the logic, it's theemotion that we've got to tap into
to be able to show thatempathy. The whole thing about creatives,
I've worked in an ad agency,I've worked with creatives for most
of my career. And I would saythat two things sometimes get in
the way. Because one thing isego. And ego kills empathy. When

(12:08):
we think we know all theanswers and Other points of view
are not valid. We closeourselves off to empathy, we close
ourselves off to otherperspectives or even thinking there
might be validity in seeingsomething in a different way. The
other thing is insecurity.When we're not self aware, when we
don't have our own house inorder, so to speak, when our brain

(12:29):
is full of our owninsecurities and fears and worries,
we have no space to actuallytake on another person's point of
view without defensiveness orfear. So not to say, I mean, I'm
very creative and you know, Iknow when my insecurity and my ego
has gotten in the way of mebeing able to see another perspective

(12:49):
that could have been a bettersolution or a better way of being
because I was coming at itfrom. I know all the answers. I know
how this should look, I knowhow this should sound. And I really
think I'm smarter than you atthis point. And sometimes that happens
when we're dealing withreally, really talented creatives
is you deal with ego or youdeal with insecurity.

(13:10):
Sometimes those are two deadlysins there.
And we all have them, right?To varying degrees. It's just, how
are we able to regulate aroundthem and actually be aware that they're
getting in the way of aproductive relationship or they're
getting in the way of aninnovative solution that we're not
seeing because we think we'vegot the goods on how this should

(13:32):
be done.
I need to be careful how I'mgoing to say this next part because
I don't want people to thinklike I'm this way or that way. I
highly identify as a logicalperson, but I can speak to emotion
and access emotion in waysthat maybe I'm doing it through the
cognitive lens. I'm not sure.But as such, I have some suspicions

(13:52):
about. People are like, oh,I'm very empathetic. I'm an empath.
And they say things like that.I'm like, well, I'm not sure. So
let me present to yousomething I heard and then I would
love for, for your take on it.And then maybe we can unpack it and
then tie it to other things.So I don't know why there are people
in my life who want to tell methey're empaths. I'm like, I know
what the definition of anempath is. And they're like, tell

(14:15):
me what it looks like in yourworld. So they say, well, I can go
into a supermarket and justfeel what people are feeling. Okay,
okay, all right. Like I, I'm aLittle, you know, woo curious. But
I'm not like, totally like inthe woo verse, I don't think.
But okay, wait. Woo curiousand woo verse. I have to add that

(14:36):
to my vernacular.
There's one more. Because mywife is deep in the woo. I tell people
I'm open, but I havesecondhand woo because I. There's
a lot of it at the house. So Iwant to say, like, there's a possibility
that there's frequencies youcan tap into and energies. But I
don't think that's whatthey're saying because they're not
professing to be a channelerof energies or things like that.

(14:57):
And I really suspect somethingelse is going on, that a lot of what
it is is projection. And thisis where I think empathy gets really
dangerous because I have a lotof examples of people projecting
their feelings. I'm like, I'mnot feeling that. I'm really not
feeling that right now. Andyou're saying you're an empath and
you're empathetic. Where'sthat coming from? So I think they

(15:18):
go into the supermarketfeeling happy or sad or depressed
and painful, and somethingwill just set them off and it'll
trigger a response in them. Ithas nothing to do with the other
person or the people. What'syour take on that? Please.
Oh, my gosh, I love that. Thatis so juicy. Let's dive into that.
So first of all, I'm laughingbecause ever since I started writing
about empathy, I always havepeople clamoring to come up to me

(15:41):
to tell me how empathetic theyare. And, you know, they probably
are. But to your point, I'm anempath. Life is so hard for me because
I feel everything right. And Ithink there are that are. It's been
proven by science. There arehighly sensitive people. I do believe
there are people that can tapinto their intuition more than other

(16:03):
people and they can senseenergies. We all actually can. We've
all walked into a meeting,maybe we didn't hear a word that
was being said, but we canjust tell by the vibe that someone's
in trouble or something badjust happened. Right. And that's.
I think that's intuition. Idon't know that that's empathy per
se. So maybe what some ofthose people are feeling is the vibe.

(16:25):
I 100% agree that a lot ofthat can be projection as well. Like
what mood are we in that we'remanifesting and projecting onto everyone
else? I have a very logical,data driven husband who's from the
uk And I am a hot headedItalian woman from New York. Right.
We are very different people.And so sometimes I tell him, his

(16:45):
reaction is, why are you mad?Or why are you being arrogant? Or
why are you. You know, I'massuming all these things about him
because of what I think I'mgetting from him. And he's like,
I'm just listening, I'm justtaking it in. Right. So that I think
that is a really.
All husbands feel this, by the way.
I know, I know.

(17:05):
We're very simple. It's like,what's going on? Nothing. What do
you think about nothing?There's nothing here. And women cannot
understand this.
Yeah. Now you're franticallytrying to think of something like
poetic to say that you werethinking about. So there's that.
I had a situation with aclient a few years ago who was actually
unhappy with the work that weproduced. And this person kept saying,

(17:29):
I'm very, very empathetic. Andso I'm going to tell you exactly
how I feel. Because I'mempathetic. I don't hide my feelings.
I'm empathetic. I let peopleknow exactly what I'm thinking when
I'm thinking it. And fastforward it turned out they just completely
misunderstood what we weretrying to do for them or what we
actually delivered accordingto the contract. But the perspective

(17:53):
was I can unleash on you andbe completely insulting to your point.
I can make all theseassumptions about you and your team,
but it's okay because I'mempathetic. Like empathy gives me
the right to share everyemotion I'm feeling at any moment
that I'm feeling it in any waythat I feel I should communicate

(18:13):
it. And you know, this is thething with, when we hear the term
radical candor. Radical candoris good, I guess, but kind candor
is better. I spoke to ClaudeSilver, who's the chief heart officer
at Vaynermedia, and she saidthey lead with kind candor, not radical
candor. Because there's adifference. You actually do have

(18:35):
to think about the needs ofyour audience and be empathetic.
Even when you're deliveringsomething tough, even when you're
delivering a hard truth, youwant the message to land. That's
the point. It can't land ifyou just in whatever name of empathy
you think you're being, you'respewing your emotions out on somebody
else. And so I just find thatreally interesting that there are

(18:57):
people who hurt with thetruth, who hurt with their words,
and their justification is,well, I'm Empathetic. I just feel
things deeply. Like, this isjust how I. I operate. I'm being
empathetic because I'm beinghonest with you. And so we really
have to get away. I have aterm in the book Weaponizing Empathy,
of using empathy as an. Numberone, as an excuse to inflict pain,

(19:22):
but also as an excuse to takeadvantage of someone because of their
empathy. So you're my clientor you're my manager. And I know,
Chris, you're a reallyempathetic person. So I might try
to game the system by guiltingyou into things to get my way. You're
asking me to work overtime.And now you've overstepped my boundaries,

(19:42):
Chris. So I'm going to need amental health day to process you
overstepping my boundaries.And you're like, what is happening
right now? But you might letit slide because you, you have dipped
into people pleasing overempathy. That's a very few and far
between. I always like to saythose are outliers that are actually
weaponizing empathy in thatway. But we do have to be alert for

(20:04):
them. We do have to actuallyunderstand where people are coming
from and notice if there's apattern of bad intentions or bad
motives and be able to bestrong enough to remain empathetic
and say, I hear what you'resaying, but that's actually not what's
happening here. And we have anagreement as a team that when there's
a client crisis, we're goingto work overtime. We're going to

(20:26):
do what we need to do to solvethat problem. So I'm sorry you feel
that your boundaries werecrossed, but this is just the way
we're operating. We need youand we need you to step up. That's
a very different responsethan, oh, my gosh, I'm so scared
that I'm going to piss thisperson off. So I'm just going to
let them go and take theirthree days off while I clean up the
mess as the leader. And thisis why leaders get burned out in

(20:49):
the name of empathy when whatthey're doing is actually not empathy.
I think, and I've witnessedthis myself, when people say, in
the spirit of or I amempathetic or honest, or I'm trying
to practice radical candor,radically transparent. They actually
don't understand what they'resaying. Those are all ways to pad
the punch that's about to come.

(21:10):
Yeah, exactly.
That's all it is. It's like,hey, what's this over here? And then
boom. And I have Friends andproducers who used to do this with
me. And then I would respondin the same way, like, that's not
what you're doing, friend. Sowhen people say, I want to be really
honest with you and this thingsucks and I want to make more money,
it's like, that's not reallyin the spirit of trying to be honest.

(21:31):
You're going to make acomplaint or you're going to make
a request that doesn't seemreasonable and you want to package
it that. Like that. So then Isay, well, that's not really what
we're doing, but let me showyou what that looks like, which is,
I'm going to be radicallyhonest. No. And I don't accept that.
Yeah, exactly.
Does that make you feel anybetter? No. So let's just strip it
down. You're asking forsomething. Let's just focus on what
you're asking for, and let'ssee what merits and what kind of

(21:52):
flexibility we have.
See, but that's actually. Ijust want to point out, Chris, that's
actually empathetic becauseyou're. You're listening and you're
trying to get to the root ofwhat the person's context is. So
you're not just hearing thewords and reacting to the words.
That's actually highlyempathetic in that you're going,
okay, I hear what you'resaying. That's completely. You're
in outer space right now. Wecan't actually accommodate that.

(22:13):
But let's try to get to theroot of what it is you're actually
asking. And what is the realproblem here? And that requires curiosity.
That requires activelistening. And so even when you respond
in that sort of tough way oflike, no, but let's look at what
the root cause is. That'shighly empathetic.
The thing that I find reallyfunny is somebody's like, I'm very

(22:35):
empathetic. I find very rarelythat people who are empathetic need
to tell you that they'reempathetic. Just like I'm a really
honest, trustworthy person.The fact that you say it makes me
question it. And thelikelihood of you being that person
and announcing it ahead oftime makes me really suspicious.
Like, demonstrate it. Youdon't need to label it. So I already

(22:58):
know bad things are about tocome. Nine out of 10 times, maybe
one out of 10, I'm surprised.Like, wow, that was really empathetic
what you said. Let's get backinto it. Right? So you mentioned
something about walking into aroom and your intuition says something
is funky. And I could admit tothat too. And here's what I think

(23:18):
it is. I'd love to get yourperspective on it. Let's say people
are talking about you, like,not in a good way. And they're like,
oh, my God, Jenny or Bob sucksand they did this. Can you believe
that? Oh, my God. So blah,blah, blah. They're wasting time
and money. And then they saidthis. Then Bob or Carrie or Mary
walks in the room and theneverybody just stops immediately.
I don't think you're an empathwhen you see that all of a sudden

(23:40):
something's halted. Like whena train comes to the stop at a station,
we don't say, I'm an empath.We just notice a change. And the
change we noticed is peoplewere talking. Their body language
has just suddenly changed. Andwe're noticing that now. What we'll
do is we'll assume, based onexperience in history, oh, it's probably

(24:01):
something they didn't want meto hear. Could be a number of different
things. Stock options arebuying plans for dinner that they
don't plan to invite me to. OrChris sucks and he just walked in
the room and we're going tostop talking about him right now.
But that's not being anempath. It's just noticing things.
Yeah, I mean, really being anempath is again, going back to can
you see things from someoneelse's perspective and can you connect

(24:23):
through feeling? Do you havean emotional reaction that's connecting
to that person emotionally?Whether it's anger or sadness or
delight, you can actually beempathetic with someone. Enjoy. Right.
Funny thing, I am actually agame show junkie. I love watching
game shows. I re. I'm a dork.I record Jeopardy. And I watch it
on my lunch break. And. And Ilove game shows because of the empathy

(24:47):
moment. When someone elsewins, I get a high, I smile, I start
feeling excited. I love thatabout game shows. And I've noticed
that some game shows, someoneis always a winner or other game
shows that don't always dovery well is where no one wins at
the end because you don't getthat empathetic hit. You don't get

(25:08):
that. That moment ofconnection of. Of feeling that high
and that excitement with thatperson. And now I'm not on the game
show. I'm not there. I'm notwinning the money, But I'm experiencing
it as if I could feel itmyself. And I do feel it myself in
my heart rate and myphysiology. I feel it. And that's

(25:29):
Why I, and probably so manyothers are addicted to game shows
because it's definitely anexercise in sharing an emotion with
someone because you're justso. You're so happy, or you're so
excited for them, or you'reseeing them and you're smiling back.
You know about mirror neurons,right? When you're telling me something
and you start crying, I mightstart tearing up. If you are standing

(25:51):
there with your arms crossed,I might cross my arms and start to
defend myself, too. Mirrorneurons are how we ended up discovering
that empathy is innate to usas human beings. Those scientific
research projects that told usabout mirror neurons showed us that
empathy is present in evenbabies, in young children. And what

(26:12):
happens is, barring anyoutlying pathologies. Right. Psychopathies.
Everyone is born with empathy,and it's how our species has survived.
What happens is that for someof us, the muscle atrophies. We are
in environments where it's notcelebrated, it's not rewarded, it's
not acknowledged. We mighteven be punished for it. And that

(26:34):
could be a family environment,that could be a work environment
for other people. The muscle'sreally strong because it has been
rewarded and modeled andcelebrated, and now it just becomes
part of their operatingsystem. They're not trying to be
empathetic. They just are. Andthat's why there's so much work being
done with children from asocial and emotional learning standpoint,

(26:55):
to help them continue tocultivate and nurture that natural
empathy. So that books likemine don't have to be written in
the future because they'regoing to say, I don't understand
why I have to read a bookabout empathy. It just will be who
they are, and it'll be part oftheir identity. And that's what we
hope for.
If you like game shows,because it helps you to feel something.

(27:19):
I wonder if you enjoy watchingthose videos where people do random
acts of kindness, becausethat's like the purest expression
of that. You don't even haveto wait for the commercial break.
Oh, yeah.
Because it's all designed tohelp somebody. Somebody who's down
and out. Right. And I thinkthat's why those videos are so popular.
I think so. I think they are,because they tap into a shared connection

(27:39):
and a shared.
Emotion that we feel also,like amazing humans. When somebody
does a quadruple backflip offa bicycle, I'm like, whoa, my God,
you're a special person. Thatis amazing. Dang. You know. Okay,
I have an admission. My wifeis a very emotional person, and she
is in her fields, and she'llsay something and she'll start to

(28:03):
cry. And I'm sitting herelistening to her, and I don't cry.
I mean, I cry when it'sappropriate. And maybe this. I'm
like, I'm trying to understandwhat she's going through, and I'm
listening, and I think shewould probably feel better if I just
started crying. But I havethis whole theory. So if we're in
a professional setting or inan environment where there is no.

(28:25):
We don't have an intimaterelationship together, we're not
partners in life. And somebodycries and then somebody else cries.
My logical brain says, if youcry and then I cry, the person who
needs some understanding, someempathy, is being robbed of it. Because
now I made it about me and Ihave problems with this. And so let's

(28:48):
talk about it as a person whohas maybe higher mirror neurons than.
Than I have. Maybe. I don'tknow. I'm like, I. I have to control
myself. Like, don't make itabout you right now.
Yes. I'm so glad you broughtthis up. And by the way, I might
be an empathy expert, but I'mnot an expert at empathy. Like, just
ask my husband or my son. Onany given day.
It took me minutes to processthe difference between those two.

(29:09):
It's a practice. It's apractice because we're human. Our
capacities are not alwaysgoing to be full. That's the whole
point of the Empathy Dilemmabook, is to provide five pillars
to say, strengthen these, andmaybe your empathy will still enable
you to balance performance andaccountability and not dip into these
other more negative areas.Right. Part of that is self awareness

(29:31):
and self care andunderstanding where you are when
I'm tired and hungry. I'm ahorrible mom. Like, I just have no
capacity. My fuse is short. Idon't care what life is like for
the other person. But to yourpoint, we, with all good intentions,
sometimes engage in what Icall empathy hijacking. And I am
guilty of it, too. I'm justlike empathy anonymous here. Like,

(29:52):
I am just as guilty of this asanyone else. In an effort to connect,
you tell me a story about ahorrible car accident you were in.
Whatever. And I say, oh mygosh, Chris, I know exactly how you
feel because three years ago Iwas in a car accident. And then this
is what happened. And I gotsent to the. I mean, you didn't even
go to the hospital. I got sentto the hospital. Now all of a sudden,

(30:13):
you're not even talkinganymore. I am de Centering the narrative
from you to me, when reallymaybe you just needed to talk, maybe
you just needed to share andprocess how you felt about being
in this car accident. But it'sactually a very good, like I said,
it's with all good intention.We do it to try to make each other

(30:35):
not feel so alone. And Ireally learned this Lesson when in
2008, I almost died from abrain aneurysm. I had a ruptured
brain aneurysm. And spoileralert, I survived, right? I had a
miraculous recovery. And I'mback at my work and back in my life
again. But with adaptationsand my recovery period, my year or

(31:01):
so of recovering. I can't eventell you how many times people said,
oh, don't worry about it, Ihave no short term memory either.
Like, I have to writeeverything down, I know exactly how
you feel, or oh, I can'tremember names that easily anymore.
It's like, first of all,you're completely minimizing my experience
because this was something forme that one day was and the next
day was not. Right. Second,it's not about you. It's not that.

(31:25):
It's like we were talkingbefore we started recording. We were
talking about the fires inSouthern California. One form of
empathy hijacking is the,well, at least, well, at least you
and your family got outsafely. It doesn't matter that your
house burned down, you losteverything and you have to start
over. Well, at least you'resort of taking a toxic positivity
of making somebody look at thebright side, when all they may need

(31:48):
to do at this moment is sit intheir emotion and sit in in their
suffering, whatever it is,right? All you need to do to respond.
Because people go, I don'tknow how to respond though, if I
don't share my story or Idon't tell them this happened to
me and make them feel lessalone. You know what you can do?
You can just say, wow, thatsounds really hard. That sounds really
hard right now. Tell me more,tell me more about it. And you can

(32:14):
ask for consent. You can say,I have an example in the book about,
you know, if you'veexperienced something professionally
that another person hasexperienced, instead of automatically
launching into, well, youshouldn't feel bad about that because
here's what happened to me andit turned out great. You can say,
that must be really tough. Ido know how you feel. If you're open

(32:34):
to it, I can share with you asimilar experience I had. But if
you're not ready to talk aboutthat Right now and hear that perspective.
Let's talk about how you'refeeling some more. And maybe at a
later point, that person mightsay, actually, I do want to hear
about your experience. Can youshare that with me? I'm actually
in. I'm in advice receivingmode now. But before, I just needed
to unload. I just needed tofeel the feels, as you said. I just

(32:57):
needed to process, and I justneeded someone to witness that. I
just needed someone to bethere so I didn't sound like a crazy
person talking to myself.Right. So I think, again, that empathy
hijacking is something that wedo with all good intentions to connect,
but it de Centers to yourpoint. It makes it about you and

(33:19):
not them. And that's theopposite of empathy.
My empathetic friends, pleaselisten. Let the word sink in. Savor
it for a second. And now Iwant to dive back into it again.
So I'm not an expert at any ofthis stuff, so I'm just curious here.
All right. You gave a prettyclear example of how you can hijack.

(33:39):
So the people who arelistening are like, wow, I don't
do that. I would never do that.
Oh, my gosh, we all do it. Weall do it.
So let's kind of slowly unpacksome of this. Number one is if we're
experiencing something, ithelps most people to talk it out,
not to themselves, becauseit's kind of bizarre practice to

(33:59):
do. And so if we interruptthem in getting it out, we interrupt
their healing process, theirsharing process, their ability to
connect. And there's lots ofthings we can do to disrupt that.
Number one is we make it aboutus. We inadvertently are trying to
connect with them sodesperately, maybe it's out of our
own insecurity to. To provethat we care so much that we go overboard.

(34:21):
It's the overreaction, theoveraction. Okay, that's number one.
That was very clear. And yousaid that. Number two is. And I would
love to. To share or ask youabout this is if I'm having, like,
just. Just like a brokenmoment, and then you start bawling
your eyes out. Now I'm worriedabout you. And like, oh, my God,
don't feel so bad. So that isalso a form of making it about you,

(34:43):
I think.
Yes, a hundred percent. Yeah.It's about what does that person
need right now? Do they reallyneed you breaking down with them?
Maybe not. So you have to havesome emotional regulation, even if
that's what you feel likedoing, you're so upset for that person.
You want to cry too. If you'rebeing really empathetic, it's you

(35:05):
need to temper yourself andsay, what does this person actually
need from me? Maybe I go cryby myself after I leave them alone.
But it doesn't mean you're anymore empathetic because you're completely
matching the emotion thatthey're having. Because maybe that's
actually not what they need.They need some stability. They need
some stoicism. They need some.Some comfort. And they don't need

(35:26):
you falling apart as much asthey're falling apart in that moment.
It's time for a quick break,but we'll be right back.
Foreign.
To make the most of theopportunities coming your way this
year, I'd like to invite youto join me inside the Future Pro

(35:47):
Membership, your ace in thehole for 2024. With expert guidance
and a supportive community,the Future Pro Membership was created
as your ultimate businesslifeline. And we have years testimonials
from members to pro it. Checkit out thefuture.compro.
And rebecc welcome back to our conversation.

(36:09):
So empathy, as we've beentalking about, is your ability to
see from their perspective,not from your perspective. So I might
be brokenhearted, but there'sa thousand ways of my heart to be
broken. And if you map yourown experiences like you're having
heartbreaking moment, but it'snot the one that I'm having right
now and it's for a verydifferent reason. So here's the Idiot's

(36:30):
Guide. This is for my friendswho are idiots with this kind of
stuff, is if you just practicethis one thing, it's just to be a
little bit more curious ahundred percent. If you just start
there, forget about all theseother words, whether it's cognitive
or emotional, just like, whatis it you're going through? I just,
I want to sit here untilyou're done processing and the very

(36:51):
next thing I might ask is whatwould be helpful for you right now?
They're like, nothing, justgive me a minute. Or I would love
to hear about your experiencesor I need some advice or I need five
bucks, whatever it is. And wealso assume that what we would want,
we give to the other person.It's like, that's not what they want
right now.
Right? That's the golden ruleempathy requires. And I did not coin

(37:14):
this, the platinum rule, whichis do unto others as they would have
done unto them. And that'swhere we get confused with being
nice with empathy. And to yourpoint, I have a tool in the book
that I give to leaders ormanagers. You've got someone coming
into your office distraught orangry or whatever, and they start
going off about something orgetting emotional or getting angry.

(37:37):
And so your response, yournatural inclination might be to fix
it for them. I admit I do thiswith my husband all the time. When
he complains about things,about work, I immediately go into
problem solving mode. Well,did you send this email? Did you
talk to this person? Did youblah, blah, blah. And he goes, babe,
I'm just trying to vent rightnow. It's like, oh, okay, okay. But

(37:57):
as a manager, you can say, Isee this is really important to you.
You don't have to go spinningoff as your own whirling dervish
to match their level ofintensity, right? You can take a
breath, take a pause. That'sthe most important thing. Take a
pause. And to your point,curiosity is the number one trait
of empathic people. Becausethey don't guess what your point

(38:18):
of view is. They ask you. Sothe manager can say, I see, I want
to acknowledge first, I seethat you're really upset and this
is important to you. So it'simportant to me. How can I best serve
you? Do you want me just tosee it? Do you want me to solve it
or do you want me to supportyou? Meaning see it? You just need
someone to vent to solve it.You want me to brainstorm solutions

(38:41):
with you? Support you isprovide some resources or some avenues
of direction for you to go inand some support. Even if it's emotional
support or comfort orwhatever, we don't do that. We immediately
jump into problem solving modebecause we don't like seeing people
in pain, right? Whether theirpain is anger or actual pain, or

(39:03):
their pain is frustration. Andthis is something I have to try so
hard with my 10 year old is Ican't fix everything and he doesn't
want me to fix everything. Andso, hey, you're bitching about something.
Do you want me to see it? Doyou want me to solve it, or do you
want me to support you? Now, Iwill tell you, I'm not a perfect

(39:25):
parent and I don't do that allthe time. In case anyone has any
delusions that I do that allthe time. But it's what I strive
to do, it's what I hope to do.And that's why when your capacity
is full, when you've got yourown house in order and you're feeling
secure, you're feelinggrounded, you're feeling present,
it's much easier to, you know,take that Breath before you react.

(39:50):
And that's so important.
See, there's more than oneoption. There's at least three that
we know about the three S's.There is just to sit in silence and
see it work on proactivelyfinding a solution with the person,
especially a solution thatthey would find to be helpful and
just to support them inwhatever way that they need support

(40:12):
in that moment. Right. Wedon't have to always go into solutions
mode. Actually, I prefer thatwe don't go into solutions, but we
need to flip the script. Idon't know where it is in, in our
socialization, our culture, togive answers all the time and prize
answers so much. I think it'sdestroyed a lot of basic human connection
and communication, for sure.

(40:33):
And your community and mycommunity, we're communities of doers,
we're communities of creators.And so our tendency is what can be
done. And I am constantlyfighting against this for myself.
Sometimes the thing to be thenext right action that I talked about
earlier is just to listen. Thenext right action is to just hold

(40:53):
space for someone.
I want to take this to pricingand I want to get back to the book.
This is going to be a weirdangle for you. Okay.
Okay. I love it. Bring it.
Okay. So people in thecreative space, they have generally
fixed pricing, hourly pricing,and they bristle against this idea
that you need to price thecustomer, not the job. They feel

(41:15):
like that's opportunistic.It's taking advantage of people's
need. And the example theyalways go to is if someone's dying
of thirst on the the desertand have a bottle of water, I'm not
going to price the client.That's exploitive. Right, right.
You're not going to pricegouge. Yeah, yeah.
That's a pretty extremeexample. You know, when nobody has
toilet paper, like it's 10,$10 a sheet. Okay, yeah. That's not

(41:35):
what I'm talking about. Right,yeah. So what I'm saying to them
is this is by having fixedpricing or hourly pricing, it's the
least empathetic thing thatyou can do. The case I make is this.
Not all customers are thesame. They have different needs,
they have different capacityto spend. And the outcomes of the

(41:58):
work that you do, despite itbeing exactly the same, will have
different impacts on people.The same logo you designed for Walmart,
it's going to be verydifferent than Joe and Mary's bakery.
Very different. So if you wantto be empathetic, we should try to
understand the customer'sneeds first and what kind of impact
and charge accordingly.Sometimes it's not much so charge

(42:20):
less and sometimes it's a lotmore charge more. I know that's a
weird angle to take with thisempathy conversation. What's your
take on it?
So that's really interestingbecause I, you know, have done brand
projects for a really longtime and I have different pricing
for for solopreneurs versuscompanies that I work for or funded
startups. Now the work is morewhen you're dealing with a cross

(42:44):
functional team that you haveto wrangle versus a solopreneur.
They're the sole decisionmaker, they're the only person I
have to deal with. Less catsto herd, as they say. The process
is the same but to your point,the value and also the research and
my time commitment is morewith the larger companies. I would
say I'm going to argue bothsides of this. So I tend to do this

(43:06):
a lot. The agreement with thatis yes, price based on impact, price
based on value and how you canbe transparent so you're not spending
your time dealing with peoplethat can't afford you is to put a
floor. My projects start at X,so at least someone has a point of

(43:27):
reference to say I shouldn'teven bother wasting an hour of Chris's
time on a discovery call if Ican't even hit that minimum. Right.
The flip side of that I'mgoing to play devil's advocate is
that one of my pillars in thenew book is clarity. Clarity is actually
empathetic because it doesn'tleave people in the dark. It doesn't
leave people fumbling aroundgoing, where am I? What's expected

(43:49):
of me? What can I expect? Allof that type of stuff. So that part
of me says pricing like thatis good because it's, hey, I'm laying
it out. You know exactly whatto expect if you get on a phone call
with me. But it also, to yourpoint, doesn't leave room if the
price needs to go up or down.And that's why I'm a big fan of my

(44:10):
packages. Start at my work,starts at my projects, start at.
And then you leave room tosay, let me assess your needs and
assess the impact of this workand also how long I think I'm going
to have to invest in it. Withone project, I might not have to
invest a lot of time withanother, I might have to do a lot
more research, a lot morecustomer interviews, whatever it
is, but it leaves me room. Butthen you don't leave the person you

(44:33):
need to give Someone an anchorin where something's going to go
in terms of what their budgeteven is. So I'm arguing out of both
sides of my mouth on that one.But I think that's also about experimentation
and your customer and what youfeel comfortable doing. Because one
thing that does bother me isif I don't have any understanding

(44:53):
before I get on a 45 minutecall with somebody, if I can even
afford this. So I want somesense of like, you know, hey, I might
not have a budget for this,but I might be able to find the money,
which is normally what happenswith my brand clients. Right. Like
I don't have a budget setaside for brand strategy, but if
I see value in it and I knowwhere it's going to take me, I'll

(45:15):
find the money. But nobodywants to waste their time on a conversation
if we're not even playing inthe same ballpark. So that's kind
of where I land on that. Idon't know what's worked for you,
but that's what's worked for me.
I didn't hear it as you makingconflicting arguments. Not at all.
I think the job of any servicepractitioner is to make clear really

(45:37):
early on what some of theexpectations are. Because if it's
not a good fit, let's notspend time talking about this.
Exactly.
So you can easily say, are youdoing at least $30,000 a month in
revenue? Are you prepared toat least X number of Y? Okay, great.
Now we have the rest of theconversation. Otherwise I'm wasting
your time. And that couldhappen on the website, it could happen
on an appointment set or allthat kind of stuff. That's all good.

(45:59):
So I recently got an inquiryin my DMs. Somebody had asked me,
we'd love for you to be on theadvisory board to this company. What
do you charge? Well, I'm notgoing to answer that question because
what are you asking of me?What is going on? And unlike in the
whole like brand or design.Yeah, you could work more hours.
So I want to take it out oflike that context. I'm going to show

(46:21):
up for whatever time and thesame person, whether you're a tiny
little fledgling company or amulti billion dollar company. So
at that point I have to reallykind of take into consideration what
is it that you're asking ofme, what are your expectations and
what is the commitment? Andthen I will sit around and think
about it with you to see likewhat feels right. And that's a conversation.

(46:42):
I'm not going to sit there andsay, well, it's 2,000 bucks or it's
2 million. I just don't know.I don't know.
Right. I do that with speakingas well. I get inquiries of, we'd
like you to come and do akeynote. Please send us your rate.
And I'm like, no, no, no, no.It depends on where you are. It depends
on the audience. It depends onhow much prep I have to do. It depends
on how long you want it to be.It depends on your goals. It depends

(47:05):
on if you want me just tolecture to people or have some interactivity
and role plays. Like, there'sa lot there. And that question is
so hard to answer. I have, youknow, of course, we all, as business
owners have list prices andwhat we base our financial projections
on, but I can also be veryflexible with people. And that's
the joy of working foryourself, is if you decide, hey,

(47:25):
this is someone I really wantto work with. That's what I always
tell my clients, is even whenI send a proposal, this is a jumping
off point. If this is going towork for you, great. If you want
more, let's get creative.
Out of curiosity, this is asidebar here. Not to talk about numbers
unless you want to talk aboutit, but of the different kinds of
things that you can do. Whatdo you charge the least for and get

(47:48):
most enjoyment for, and whatdo you charge the most for because
it's the least enjoyable thingfor you. I have my own hierarchy.
Right. So there's workshops,there's prepared talks. There are,
like, fireside chats and paneldiscussions. I just want to know.
Just, you know, professional curiosity.
Yeah, it's funny, you'regetting me at a point where I'm shifting
some things around in mybusiness model. So this is very,

(48:08):
like, top of mind. I mean, theeasiest things that are also rewarding
for me are fireside chatswhere I'm like, we don't know how
it's going to go. I have anidea of what questions you want to
ask. But it's very organic,and it can be very open to spontaneous
moments and open to questions.I really love those. And that's probably
my least expensive option, butalso very rewarding for me because

(48:31):
it might still take the sameamount of time as me delivering a
keynote, but there's lessprep, there's a little bit more unexpected
magic that happens. And so Ilove doing those. I think probably
with my leadership workshops,which can be anywhere from 90 minutes
to 120 minutes, that has acurriculum that has specific exercises

(48:52):
we're going to do together.It's more time and energy, but that's
actually my higher ticketitem. But it's also one of the most
rewarding things that I dobecause when you can get people in
a room for that amount of timeand you can watch them come to their
own realizations. I loveteaching. I love being on stage and
seeing people, I love seeingtheir eyes light up. That moment

(49:15):
of like, oh, I see somethingin a new way that I never saw before.
And now with my work, youknow, that was always true with my
branding work and doing brandworkshops, which I still do. I'm
just much more selective aboutthose. But when I do talks, I love
to be able to get that energyback from the audience where they're
nodding their heads andthey're leaning forward and everyone's

(49:36):
clamoring to ask a question.When the question time comes. Even
when you've got those skepticsin the room, and even at my, by the
way, even at my brandworkshops with companies, there's
always one right in the roomwho's like, I don't even know why
I have to be here. Because I,I bring people in that are not in
marketing into my brandworkshops. I want to know what engineering
thinks, I want to know whattechnology thinks, I want to know
what sales thinks. Because Iwant to have a 360 degree view of

(50:00):
the customer and the product.But there's always that person that's
sitting there with their armscrossed waiting for me to impress
them. And with my brandprojects, those people always end
up being my biggestevangelists by the end. And it's
because of empathy, Chris.It's because they've been silenced
in their own organizationsbecause maybe they're cranky or they're

(50:22):
a squeaky wheel and I givethem space. I tell them, tell me
about that. Tell me about thatproblem. Like, no, no, no, don't
interrupt him. Let me hearmore about that. They end up becoming
your biggest champions whenyou give people space to listen.
And they're the ones actuallydefending the decisions that come
out of the brand work. Andwith my works, my empathy workshops,

(50:45):
I always get the, I call themthe what abouts. They're the people
that are determined to showthat empathy has no place in business.
And they don't even know whythey're in this workshop. Right,
but what about the situationwhen. But what about if my team's
underperforming? But whatabout if people are just whining
about coming back to work? Ilove being able to listen to them
and hear their concerns andget them maybe not agree with me,

(51:07):
because that's not whatempathy's about. Right. But get them
to see it in a different way.Where they start even in their body
posture, they uncross theirarms, they relax a little bit. They're
like, okay, okay, I'll letthis in to marinate a little bit.
I love that moment.
So, quick recap on the wholetalking thing. You are like me and

(51:28):
probably like a lot of people,which is you'll pay the most for
the things I find to be mostpainful. So if it's a fireside, an
ama, it's interactive, and wedon't have to worry about worksheets
and formal rubrics and thingsof that nature. We're gonna have
a lot of fun. That'll cost atleast. Not to say that it's cheap,
but it'll cost at least. Andon the opposite end is like, leadership

(51:48):
training with heavycurriculum, heavy expectations. Everybody's
minute is very expensivethere. So we got to make sure it's
tight. The agenda, the food,everything's got to be super tight.
Right? And talk somewhere inthe middle.
Yeah, depending. I mean, Ilike, probably like you, I always
give nonprofits a break. Ialways, you know, especially if I.
If I agree with their mission,you know, I don't know. But for me,

(52:10):
it's also the passion ofgetting the message out into the
world.
So it's just for the record,so people know why I'm laughing.
It's because I don't give abreak. It's like, I don't care if
you're a nonprofit. No.
Oh, wow. Okay.
I either show up or I don't.And because you can go to the poor
house and lose all of yourtime in the world of nonprofits,
you really can. And the thingthat I know you know this, but our

(52:31):
audience might not, is somenonprofits make a lot of money. They
just don't want to pay you.Some of the most profitable companies
I know are nonprofits. Andit's like, what? It's a tax classification,
everybody. It's not about howmuch money to have.
So, I mean, I'm talking abouttrue non profits. I'm talking about,
like, ones I've been onadvisory boards on that have hired
me to do brand work. I'm like,I know your budget. I know how much

(52:52):
you stretch a dollar, and Iwant to help you have impact with
this work. I believe in thiswork, and if I have a talent and
a skill that can help youamplify that you.
Bought in, I get you.
I'm going to give you a break.
Yeah, I got you. I'm notsaying I'm not flexible, everybody,
but it's a case by case.
No, I'm just kidding.
Okay. If the audience islistening, they're feeling the feels,

(53:16):
they're like, oh, I like thenuanced approach in which you're
talking about this. It's notso deep in the woo and it's not about
all our feelings andexpressing whatever woke moment we're
all having together andthey're excited. Like, you know what?
I like what you're talkingabout. Tell me now or help me understand
why someone should pick up thebook, the empathy dilemma.

(53:38):
Yeah, so they need to pick itup if they don't understand what
empathy is. And they're tryingto see real scenarios and real examples
of empathetic leadership inaction that leads to high performance.
I have data in there, justlike I do in the empathy edge of
how empathetic cultures andleaders benefit, teams benefit, customer

(53:59):
revenue, benefit retention,benefit the bottom line. They also
want to pick it up if they arestruggling with the demands of their
people versus the demands ofthe business. And that could be whatever
size business you are, themarket has changed, customer tastes
have changed, revenue modelsmight have to change, business models

(54:20):
might have to change. But youmight have people, whether it's your
clients or your, your staffthat have all these new demands.
Now we are coming out of thepandemic with a fundamental shift
in workplace culture andleadership paradigm. The shift was
coming, let me be clear. Thetrend line was already going that
way. It got acceleratedbecause of the pandemic. I remember

(54:42):
shopping around my first bookin 2017 and agents saying, but I
don't get it. Is it a businessbook or is it a self help book? And
I'm like, no, it's a businessbook because it's about the ROI of
empathy on your bottom lineand how to practice it. Like, what
are actionable strategies tobring it into your workplace that

(55:03):
are not crying on the floor.Right. What are the benefits? What
are the ways that you canstructure meetings? What are the
ways that you can communicatein a performance review? Practical
ways to apply empathy. And soI want people who, who are struggling
with that idea of, okay,there's, there's this new paradigm
and I'm scared. So what'shappening with a lot of leaders is

(55:27):
they're snapping back tobossism because they don't know any
other way to lead. They don'tknow how to embrace empathy in the
workplace. There's a statisticdone by Business Solver's State of
Workplace Empathy report. AndI can't remember the exact statistic
right now because I'm not anumbers person, but it's something
like 60 to 80% of executivesdon't believe empathy has any place

(55:49):
in the workplace. Which isludicrous to me because is your workplace
not full of people? Anytimeyou have people interacting with
other people in pursuit of agoal, you need empathy. That's like
saying there's no. There's noplace for integrity or honesty. To
me it sounds just asludicrous. Right. If you want to

(56:10):
work effectively, if you wantto get results, if you want to increase
productivity, if you want todecrease turnover, if you want to
decrease absenteeism, if youwant to decrease quiet quitting.
And all of the things thatempathy helps on every vector. Being
an empathetic leader in anempathetic culture. And from a brand

(56:30):
perspective, when you haveData that says nine out of 10 customers
want the brands they supportto show empathy, when they say that,
97% say that empathy is themost important part of the customer
experience. We have to payattention as responsible business
leaders. We have to payattention to that. And so I want

(56:53):
them to come away from,especially the most recent book,
with an understanding of howto balance people with performance
and their own boundaries. Idon't have to give up my mental health
in the name of beingempathetic for my clients or for
my people. I don't have towork myself into the ground by doing
that. So I just want to givepeople permission and also data to

(57:18):
say empathy is a good thingand we should all be embracing more
of it.
I guess you have one of thesestrange missions where if you do
such a good job, the worldwon't need you anymore.
Exactly. That's what a visionshould be is I always challenge my
brand clients when they comeup with their vision. So statements.
Your vision statement shouldbe a future state in which your work

(57:39):
is no longer needed. What isthat state? You know, and that's
scary. Well, then I put myselfout of business. I mean, we're talking.
You're never going to attainit. But where do you want to go?
Where would be that perfectvision of utopia where your work
is no longer needed, whereyour mission is done? That's what
we have to be striving for. Wecan't just be striving for mediocrity

(58:02):
just to keep ourselves inbusiness. That's not going to work.
Right. So I like that. I'Mgoing to make a joke here. Warning.
So you asked this question inthe vision statement, like, where
is it that when you're donewith your work, it will no longer
be needed? What state is that?I'm like California, making it hard

(58:24):
for the Marine to be here.
I know.
I guess I'm not needed herefor different reasons. Not for the
right reasons, but that was myjoke. If you're in California, you
understand the pain. NorCal,SoCal, Central Coast. Y'all are in
on this with us. One thingafter the other. It's been tough.
Been tough.
I hope you have some empathyfor us, California.
I know, I know.

(58:45):
Okay. For not avoiding thefires. We're avoiding floods or whatever
else. Like atmospheric rivers.
Exactly. I was going to saybomb cyclones. What else?
Yeah. Okay. But, you know,don't cry for us because we have
beautiful weather andbeautiful people and culture, and
that's why we. We. We chooseto. To stay here.
Oh, a trade off. Yeah.
Yes. Okay. Somebody's in lovewith all of this. Where do they go

(59:06):
to find out more about whatyou do and pick up their copy of
the book?
Okay. I love it. Thank you.The easiest place is they can go
to theempathydilema.com andthat will take them to a page on
my website. My business iscalled Breads, but on that page they
can download a free chapter,they can join my newsletter, they
can learn more about the book,and then they'll see all the wonderful
things up in the menu about myspeaking and my courses and all that

(59:30):
kind of good stuff. They canfollow me on Instagram, Ed Slicemaria,
or they can connect with me onLinkedIn. I'm Maria J. Ross. But
if they connect with me onLinkedIn, this is always my public
service announcement. Theyhave to write a note that says they
heard me on your show.Otherwise I'm going to think that
they're selling me something.
So that's not an empatheticapproach to cold outreach, everybody.
That's not. That's not.

(59:52):
Okay, so just so we're clear,go to theempathydilema.com yes. And
you'll find all that you needthere. And that'll bring you into
the whole.
It'll be on my website. Mymain website. Yep. And they can find
all the things and I hope theyjoin my newsletter and stay part
of the community and get someinsights and inspiration. And they
can download a free chapter ofthe book if they want to check it
out before they buy it.

(01:00:12):
Wonderful. Well, before I askyou, my very last Question, which
is a personal, light question,I think I want to thank you for being
here. I hope, if you'relistening, dear audience, is that
you're either vindicated,validated, or you got some work to
do. It's all fine.
I love that. Vindicated,validated, or you have work to do.
Okay.
I don't know.
That's great.
I know. I'm just saying toyou, if you want to share a problem

(01:00:34):
with me, I'll ask you if youwant me to see it, solve it, or just
to support you. I can do thatfor. For you, everybody. Okay. Now,
here's the personal questionended on a slightly weird note.
Okay.
Oh, you had an aneurysm. Youhave a scar.
I think I do. Probably undermy hair somewhere.
Yeah, my brother had aneurysm.He has a. He's like, here's the scar.

(01:00:55):
You want to check it out? Theyhave to drill a hole in your head.
Well, yeah. So my. My firstone was an emergency situation. It
ruptured, and they were ableto do a coiling, which means they
don't actually go through yourskull. They go through your femoral
artery all the way up, andthey plug it up. But I had another
aneurysm that they saw thatwas small at the time. And as it

(01:01:15):
got bigger, I actually didhave to go back in 2019 and get a
elective surgery. Notelective, but I made the decision
to go get the surgery wherethey actually did go in through my
skull and clip it and thenput, like. Not to get graphic, but
put my skull back on. Put thatpiece back on. So that definitely
had a scar. Yeah.
Okay, now here's the question.My brother had an aneurysm. It was

(01:01:38):
an emergency. Emergency thing.He collapsed while walking. Thank
God they got him to thehospital. They drilled a hole, drained
the fluid.
Yep, I have that, too.
Here's the thing, is he's notthe same person that he was pre aneurysm.
And here's the weird thing.He's a lot more emotional. And so
my mom's like, it was a goodthing that that happened because

(01:01:58):
he's way more kind andempathetic and emotional, and he's
very, very logical to theextreme. He's a software engineer.
So I want to ask you thisquestion if you care to disclose
it.
I would love to. I'm a braininjury awareness advocate, and I
volunteer for organizations,so I'm happy.
Okay, so here's the question,right? How are you different?
Well, I am different. So,number one, I wrote a book about

(01:02:22):
this experience calledrebooting my brain that your family
and your brother might be veryinterested in checking out. Because
I learned a lot about theunseen impacts of brain injury, Even
if you look fine on theoutside. So for me, any brain injury
depends on where in the brainit happened. So for me, my rupture,

(01:02:43):
my hemorrhage was in myfrontal lobe. And that impacts your
executive skills. So I had todo a lot of work and a lot of therapy
around emotional regulation,around fighting depression, around
vocabulary recall, aroundprioritization. I am much more unorganized
than I used to be. My shortterm memory still, this was in 2008,

(01:03:06):
it's still an issue now. Itmight be blending with perimenopause
for me, but you know what,whatever, right? Aging. But I definitely
am more emotional, I'm morequick. If you talk about fight or
flight, I more fight than Iused to be. So definitely that filter,
that emotional regulator getsimpacted when you have a brain injury.

(01:03:26):
And for some people it can beyour social graces are gone. Like
you're saying reallyinappropriate things to people in
public out loud. Right. Forsome people it's a loss of, you know,
they cry at everything. Theyget very upset. For me, I just have
like, I go from 0 to 60 whenit comes to anger. I'm very like.
And I start yelling. I'mdifferent in that I cannot, which

(01:03:48):
is a good thing. I cannotmultitask the way I used to because
we're not actually designed tomultitask. But it was a noted difference
for me. And I'm different injust the way that I work and the
way that I manage my schedule.Like I try not to over plan, I try
not to have back to backmeetings, for example, even working
with clients, I only take on afew at a time. I don't try to scale.

(01:04:11):
And so it really changed theway that I live, the way that I interact
and the way that I work. Evenwhen you are, you know, lucky enough
to survive. So that's why Iended up writing that book. Rebooting
my brain was to help otherpeople who didn't have a voice explain
what it feels like from theinside. To experience that and to,
you know, what is youridentity if your identity is wrapped

(01:04:34):
up in. I'm good at rememberingnames, I'm great at multitasking,
I'm good at numbers. And allof a sudden that gets stripped from
you. What are you left with?So do our brains define our identity
or do. Does our identityinfluence how we think? Was kind
of the Question I asked inthat memoir, and I shared a lot of
resources and a lot ofinformation there. So thank you for

(01:04:56):
asking that.
What is your husband's name?
His name is Paul.
I just want to say this, thatyou had two aneurysms, right?
Well, I had. I. I hadaneurysms. Only one ruptured. The
other was proactively clippedor closed, whatever. Yeah, people
think aneurysm. That's the.That's. You probably know this. People
think aneurysm is an event,like a heart attack. One in 50 people

(01:05:19):
actually have an unrupturedaneurysm in their brain that they
don't know about. An aneurysmis just a weak point in your blood
vessel that blows out like aballoon. You could have it and live
your whole life and never knowyou have it. It's when it ruptures
or it gets too big, thatthat's when it causes the problem.
So when people say, I had ananeurysm, I like to say, well, I
had an aneurysm rupture, andthen I had another aneurysm that

(01:05:42):
got closed off, if you will.
The dangers. That push putspressure on your brain.
If it gets big enough. But ifit stays within, there's actually
like a. That was what I wasunder surveillance for, for years,
was how big it was. And if itstays that way, great. But if you've
had one rupture, yourlikelihood of others rupturing goes
up. The odds of anotherrupture happening goes up.

(01:06:06):
Okay, so you disclosed thisearlier. I'm gonna wrap the show
here in that you're a Italianfrom, like, a New Yorker who's Italian,
and so we can always say yourshort temper is tight.
And I'm a redhead, though.
Yeah, you're a fiery redheadItalian New Yorker living in Northern

(01:06:26):
California. You got a lot tobe ang out. So this may have been
the COVID Like, you see, I wasnot angry before and short fuse.
So I just want to say this. Iwant to say this to your husband,
Paul. You're a good man. Staywith this lady. See her, support
her, love her, appreciate her.Thank you very much.

(01:06:47):
You're gonna make me cry.
Am I?
Yeah. That's so sweet.
Sometimes I get accused the worst.
I love it. I love it.
Thank you.
I'm Maria Ross, and you'relistening to the Future.

(01:07:08):
Thanks for joining us. If youhaven't already, subscribe to our
show on your favoritepodcasting app and get new insightful
episodes from us every week.The Future podcast is hosted by Chris
do and produced and edited byRich Cardona Media. Thank you to
Adam Sanborn for our intromusic. If you enjoyed this episode,

(01:07:29):
then do us a favor byreviewing and rating our show on
Apple Podcasts. It will helpus grow the show and make future
episodes that much better. Ifyou'd like to support the show and
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(01:07:51):
again for listening and we'llsee you next time.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}337 - Empathy in Business: Nice or Necessary? - With Maria Ross