Can Anyone Be A Coach? - With Jule Kim | Episode 347 - The Futur with Chris Do

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I think there is a perceptionthat anyone can call themselves a
coach. And I think that's partof the problem. There are very young,
inexperienced people who haveundergone little to no training,
who call themselves coachesand they go and launch courses through
the power of the social reachthat they have in the coaching industry.
They'll try to tell you thatyou don't have to know anything about

(00:21):
the person's industry or aboutwhat they do for a living. They'll
try to tell you that all youhave to have is the skill of coaching.
And that's only partially true.
The idea of, like, ethicalresponsibility, I think, transcends
just the coaching business.Anyone who works in a professional
service space who isn'taccredited or governed by any body,
we can drift into these areaswhere you don't have to, like, be

(00:44):
recertified every single yearto make sure you're doing best practices
and your license can't betaken away from you because you don't
even have one.
I'm coming up on four years ofbeing a coach and. And I will say
that there is one area youreally need to have expertise in
that can be hard to have ifyou're only 21. And that's just.

(01:05):
Hey, everybody, what's up?It's Sunday. So this is unusual for
me to be recording any kind ofcontent, but my friend Jule Kim,
who has been a guest on theshow many times, had this idea that
we would create some contentbased on many conversations that
we have but aren't everrecorded. So she thought, let's do
this unfiltered thing wherejust her and I talking about whatever's

(01:25):
on the top of our mind. Intrue to form, she just woke up from
a nap and I just got back. I'munshaven, unshowered, and this is
how we're gonna do it. Soluckily, this is not Smell O Vision.
This is mostly just video andaudio only. So, Jule, what did you
have in mind? Is anythingthat's kind of top of mind for you?
Well, right now, some of thestuff kind of switches swirling around

(01:48):
in my head are stuff aroundaccountability, responsibility and
respect. And I've had. Okay,so that's one. Sorry, that's one
piece. And then there's theother conversation we've been having
over this past week about,like, our ethical and maybe financial
responsibility to clients. SoI keep thinking about it and I've

(02:08):
kept, like, teasing it apart.You know, I've had a conversation
with one of my clients and Ifind myself I'm likely to have to
have this conversation againwith yet another client. So the idea
of like the ethicalresponsibility, which I think a lot
of people don't have thoseideas associated with life coaches
because you know how a lot, alot of the perception out there is,

(02:31):
you know, scam or they're justout to take your money and. Yeah,
so it's, it's been reallyinteresting. Yeah. Plus I had coaching
this past week about some ofthe stuff that I've been going through.
You know, I think there is theperception within the general public
that anyone can callthemselves a coach and I think there's

(02:51):
dedicated body to certifiedcoaches, but I can call myself a
coach and someone else cancall themselves a coach. And I think
that's part of the problembecause there are very young, inexperienced
people who have undergonelittle to no training who call themselves
coaches and they go and launchcourses through maybe the power of

(03:11):
the social reach that theyhave and they call themselves something
and people sign up and if youhad one or two bad experiences with
some so called coach, I thinkyou can come to a reasonable conclusion.
Like it's really hard to tellthe real from the fake, the scammers
from the people who reallywant to contribute to your personal
professional development. Andthe idea of like ethical responsibility

(03:33):
I think transcends just thecoaching business. Anyone who works
in a professional servicespace who isn't accredited or governed
by any body, we can, we candrift into these areas where you
didn't have to go to ethicstraining, you don't have to like
be recertified every singleyear to make sure you're doing best
practices and your licensecan't be taken away from you because
you don't even have one. And Ithink this is an idea that a lot

(03:55):
of people can, I think, sinktheir teeth into. So why don't we
pick it up from there?
That certainly sounds good. Ido think with life coaching it gets
tricky because like you said,anybody can call themselves a coach.
And even among the differentbranches of coaching there's so many
different types. So I don'tthink people necessarily may expect
a business coach to be like acertified business coach. But it

(04:19):
does get questionable a lot ofthe times with just the two biggest
problems being someone who'sultra young. So like someone who's
21 who's like, okay, I'm goingto be a life coach. And it's not
that I necessarily think thatthat can't be done. It's just that
in the coaching industrythey'll try to tell you that you
don't have to know anythingabout the person's industry or about

(04:44):
what they do for a living. Youknow, the. Your client, they'll try
to tell you that all you haveto have is the skill of coaching.
And that's only partiallytrue. See, I'm coming up on four
years of being a coach, and Iwill say that there is one area you
really need to have expertisein that can be hard to have if you're

(05:07):
only 21. And that's justexperience with people. You have
to understand how people workand how they think. And when you're
21, I feel like you barelyknow yourself, if at all, let alone
how other people are, how theworld works, why people think the
world, the things they do, whydo they do the things they do? And

(05:27):
it gets really questionable.You know, to me, it doesn't pass
the sniff test. Now, I thinkthere are some plus sides here because
people who are younger, theirmindsets tend to be more open. I
think they tend to think morethings are possible. So the cynicism
or being jaded hasn't set inas fully as, you know, someone who's
maybe my age, like in the 40s.But otherwise, it's just. There's

(05:52):
a lot of blind spots, man. Andthen the other area with someone
who's not being certified,just period. I find that that gets
really tricky when I watchthem coach because I'm like, that
person doesn't know whatthey're doing. They can't spot the
real issue. That's the heartof the issue. And I'm not saying
that I necessarily can see it,like, right off the bat either. But

(06:13):
I've been trained in a certainline of inquiry to help get there,
to help that person identify,like, what's the thing that's causing
everything for them. And Itell you, it's like, if you've ever
had bad coaching, you neverforget the experience. It's such
a deeply, like an intenselypersonal experience. It's just like,
why people, when they go totherapy, and you'll hear people say

(06:36):
that it's taken them a longtime, they can't find a good therapist.
Or they've tried it a coupletimes, and then they'll just write
off the whole experience.They're like, therapy is not for
them. And it's because of thesame reasons. Now, it's weird because
to be a therapist, you do haveto be licensed. You had to have gone
through several years oftraining, both in the school and

(06:57):
in the field, right? Like inthe clinic. And yet you still have
people of varying levels andpeople who may not be able to connect
to the client, build rapport,help them feel seen and understood.
And still it's, it's kind ofthe same issues like helping them
get to the root of the problem.
I see a lot of parallelsbetween coaching and therapy because

(07:19):
a lot of people, and this isstrange because therapists have to
go undergo rigorous trainingin peer review and they're often
checking in with theirmentors. It's something that they
can lose their license for.Yet we know like different coaches,
teachers and therapists, evenif you've been trained and accredited
license, there's all differentkinds of, of therapists, all different

(07:43):
kinds of coaches. And just, itcould just be chemistry, like it
didn't work for a number ofdifferent reasons and, and that some
of it I think the, the clienthas to take some responsibility for.
But you know, we were talkingabout this where I don't know if
we can say, but there wassomebody that you think maybe I'm
just wasting my time trying tohelp this person because I don't

(08:05):
think they're actuallyapplying the things that I'm talking
about. And you were kind oflike conflicted because you're thinking
this is not going to work. Ithink I just need to let them go.
And I think it's in thatconversation we were talking. I said
maybe you don't have to lethim go, but you do. I think you need
to tell them somehow. Right.And what did you decide to tell them?

(08:27):
How did you resolve this? AndI'm curious how it's going.
Well, I think when we had theconversation, I was like, I think
I need to have a come to Jesusmoment with this person. And I believe
you asked me like what I mightsay and then you gave me your suggestion.
So how that went was Icouldn't, I decided not to wait because

(08:49):
she had delayed her regularcoaching session with me. And I was
like, I need to, I need to getin here. And so here's what I was
seeing, why this was an issueis that I've been working with this
person for over two years nowand she clearly gets some value out
of the relationship. She getsa lot of emotional support. She gets
guidance around sort of thefoundation of being, you know, such

(09:12):
as setting boundaries and howto figure out her priorities, etc.
But every time it comes toreally enforcing boundaries, there
was always a miss here.Anytime it came to doing something
hard, like doing real work, itwould just be disappearance, there
would be silence. For example,I had asked her to start a Pinterest

(09:33):
account and then never heardback for the next two months. And
that was like a consistenttheme here. I would say, okay, what
about this? And she'd be like,yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll do it, I'll
do it. So that was the firstthing, is to constantly say yes to
everything I suggested. Sojust being a yes man, I'm like, how
is this realistic? I know Ihave a pretty good look into your

(09:56):
life and I just don't thinkit's possible for you to actually
do everything you're signingon to. So then it becomes a question
of trust and credibility forme. But number two is the silence.
To me, that's the real killerin any relationship is I don't know
where you're at withsomething. There's no follow through.
There's no communication onyour end saying, I can't do this

(10:19):
or I don't want to do this.You know, it's not that I expect
her to do it. I know. A couplemonths back we had a conversation
about how. How whenever yousee something as hard you go out
of communication, you juststop communicating. And I've already
expressed how that's difficultfor me. And so this has been continuing.

(10:42):
And now I question whether I'mthe right person to coach you. And
I don't know if I shouldcontinue taking your money is what
I said. And so at the time,because it's kind of late at night,
she said, okay, okay, thankyou. And she said, she said, I'm
seeing. It's not okay for meto just be silent or to never respond.
And I was like, yes. Andagain, I don't expect you to do everything.

(11:04):
I just need you to tell mewhere you're at and whether you will
do something or whether you'relike f off Jule, I have no intention
of doing that. I think that'sa dumb idea. I'm like, that's fine.
Great. Now I know where Istand or where we stand. So then
fast forward three days later.It was. It was an entire. I'm not
going to say it's a meltdown,but she had some strong reactions

(11:26):
about it. It was a little bittricky, but we ended on the same
page and I think we're moving forward.
What was the meltdown? Can you say?
She was brave enough toexpress to me that at the time my
lips were saying what I justtold you. I said, but she heard you're
not worthy and I'm going toleave you. I don't want to work with

(11:48):
you anymore.
How did she process that?
What do you mean?
Well, you said one thing sheheard. I'm not worthy. And so what
is her response tointerpreting the message like that?
Really strong emotions. Youknow, there were tears. There. There

(12:08):
was. It. It was a mix. Youknow, it was a mixed bag. Like, it
was a hard moment, of course.
Mm.
But can I just say, like, I'mso impressed by her because she had
the mental fortitude to stepback and to take a look at my character
and to know that what sheheard probably wasn't what she heard.
Like, even look at the way shephrased it, she was like, I know

(12:29):
you said something else, butthis is how I heard it. So she was
taking responsibility for herreaction. And so she took a step
back, and she said, I thinkwhat you were trying to tell me was
this. Am I right? And I said,100%. 100%. And so it was just the
idea. I was like, you know,just to remind you again, like, as

(12:49):
a coach, as an ICF certifiedcoach, there is a. Like, a board
of ethics, like, there is fortherapy. And so when you take on
this credential, you'reassigning yourself to say you'll
be bound by these ethics. Andone of the ethics in coaching that
I think people don't know isthat you not sell yourself as, like,
Rent a Friend. You know, like,your client wants a certain goal

(13:13):
achieved with you as thepartner. And if you see them veering
off the path, like, this iswhat you have to do. You have to
have a conversation. And thisis not the first time we've had this
conversation. It's beenmultiple times through the. To your
relationship, and it's. It'snot easy. So there's one thing she
said which I thought was sucha beautiful lesson for anyone who

(13:36):
might ever hear this. She wassaying, you know, I want you to know
because you're talking aboutmoney. She said, I pour my heart
and soul into the work I do. Ibring so much love to the work I
do. And I pay you from themoney I earn, not from the money
that my husband earns. This ismy money, and I'm giving it to you.

(13:59):
And I was like, oh, my God.You know, in a way, what you're saying
is it's love, right? You're.You're giving your clients love.
You're receiving love inreturn, and now you're giving me
that same love. And I toldher, you know, all I'm looking for
is for you to honor thatexchange and make sure that you're
honoring that for yourself aswell. Because at the point that we

(14:19):
keep coming back to is you'regiving me the love, but where's the
love you would show yourself?That's what's missing.
I'm curious, are you trained,required, or strongly encouraged
to return money or cancelclients where it's ineffective? Or
maybe they've. It's turnedinto potentially a codependent relationship

(14:41):
or a dependent one?
There is a strongrecommendation that you end that
kind of relationship and. Orhave them seek counseling or therapy.
The ideal situation is ifsomeone is in a codependent relationship
or you see codependent signs.Number one, this should never happen
in either scenario, therapy orcoaching, because both of these professions

(15:06):
are there to give you thetools to support yourself. You know,
to not be the constantcaretaker and to not be the person
who's always going to pick youup and put the pieces back together.
It's like you're here for areason, to know how to do this for
yourself at some future point.That's the general guidance that
we get in our world of theicf. So, ideal world is they would

(15:30):
have coaching and also have atherapist to work through these issues
in tandem. And like, superideal is if they give permission
for the coach and thetherapist to actually talk with each
other, but they don't alwaysdo that.
Do you think that someone elsein your shoes, a quote unquote coach,
would have acted in a similarway? Or do you think they would just

(15:51):
keep the money or. Or maybeturn them down in a way that it's
hard for them to process?
You know, I really hate to saythis, but given all the coaching
communities that I'm in, Iwould say that someone. It's like
less than a 50 chance forother people to handle this. In my
coaching school, there's apersonality assessment that they

(16:14):
put out and consistently. Soit's got seven levels and level four
is the caretaking personality,of which I, of course, have a lot
to, you know, all of us do.But consistently as coaches, that
caretaking level will be thehighest and the strongest. It's not
the highest and strongest forme, but it used to be. So I consistently

(16:34):
see feeds like posts onFacebook or other forums where people
are struggling with not. Noteven something which to me, this
is relatively complicated.Let's just say a client is late or
a client hasn't paid, theyhaven't received payment upfront
for a client, and. And thework they've done with the client
and they're alreadystruggling. I'm like, if you can't

(16:55):
even handle something so basicas being paid up front and on time.
To me there's like a very,very low possibility that a coach
in the same kind of situationI'm in with something that's looking
so, smelling a little bit likecodependency or someone who's not
living up to their end of thebargain. Yeah, they're not going
to say something. I highlydoubt it.
It's so, it's not even drivenby money. It's driven by their caretaker

(17:18):
personality that says I, Isomehow can, I can save the soul.
I can, I can make this workbecause it's giving them something
like somebody really needs meright now and I can't turn my back
on them.
Yeah. And a fear of conflict,a huge fear of conflict. That plus
what they think is theidentity of a coach. And I fall into
this trap all the time. Well,maybe less so these days, but in

(17:41):
the first couple of years itwas all the time for me. So I've
noticed that there's this likeweird like effed up vision we hold
in our heads of how we'resupposed to be as a person because
we're a coach. Like we'resomehow supposed to transcend all
the bullshit and be betterthan other people. And yet I find
amongst coaches avoidance,fear of conflict, people pleasing

(18:04):
are extremely strong.Extremely. Because of that caretakerness.
Where do you think we shouldtake this now?
I think we should take it toyou because I feel like you have
a lot of caretaking attributes yourself.
Sure do, little child.
Oh, there we go. And I thinkthat's what people would find surprising
about you because of youronline, your public Persona. You

(18:28):
come off like super ruthless.Right. People have called you the
razor blade. And, and then toreally get to know you and then to
watch you with some of thesefriendships you have in your life.
And I was like, oh, caretaking?
Yeah, I, I've struggled withthis for a long time. I didn't know

(18:48):
that's what I was doing untilI went to see my therapist, Joan.
And Joan told me it's prettyclassic middle child stuff here.
And she, she, before she didany work with me, she wanted to know
my parents history, our familytree and structure and birth order
and all those kinds of thingsbecause it gave her a psychological
profile, an emotional profileprobably too. So when she told me

(19:10):
I was a caretaker mom, that'snot me. But then when we replayed
instances from my childhoodand also in my professional life,
the reason why I came to herwas because I was realizing, I realized
something that I was moreconcerned about employees who disagreed
with me and their mentalwelfare than my own mental welfare.
And so I would acquiesce. ButI did it in a way that I can see

(19:34):
now was passive aggressive,where I'm like, okay, I don't want
you to do that, but I'm notgonna get into a fight with you right
now. Just let water go underthe bridge. But then it would build
up. It would build up a lot ofresentment inside of me. And I. I'm
not one to say, like, I'm inthe church of Brene Brown, but I
think there's a lot of truthsto what she says. She says, choose
discomfort over resentmentwhen it comes to boundaries and speaking

(19:59):
up. And I try to, like,remember that every single time,
like, choose discomfort. It'suncomfortable for me to tell you,
no, I'm not going to pick youup. No, I'm not going to give you
this thing, and, no, you can'tstay here, because that little bit
of discomfort would then saveour relationship for me growing into
a state of resentment and inwhich I will one day just disappear
and say, you know what? Idon't really want to hang out with

(20:19):
you anymore. I don't find youto be interesting, or I think you
take advantage of me. And I'velearned. I've had to. You know, for
me, when I learn a concept andI feel it's true, then I start to
take action against it. And sothe person that you. You meet today,
probably in the social space,because I did inner work before I

(20:40):
went on social media, is thatI have a better sense of who I am
and the boundaries I want toset. That doesn't mean that people
can't push on those leversintentionally or unintentionally.
And the old me comes out, andthen the new me has to say, wait,
wait, wait, are we feelingsomething? How do we want to respond
to this? Because I also don'twant to respond to every single little
thing. I feel. It's too petty.And sometimes I think that's where

(21:04):
it starts to be this snowballeffect where you let one transgression
go by and then another andanother, and then, wait, wait, wait.
Now they're just not littletransgressions anymore. Or maybe
it's just death by a thousandpaper cuts and eventually you just
get tired of people. I'm like,no, I don't want to be around you
anymore. And the way I do thatis I recede into the background.
Just don't call you back. Idon't respond. It's not like I need

(21:26):
to have a big my own come toJesus conversation with folks.
I think I'm a littlesurprised, like, surprise and not
surprised, because that'swhere we would handle it differently.
Yeah, yeah.
Because I think I would have aconversation with someone, even my
friends, like, don't get mewrong, probably like five, ten years

(21:47):
ago, I was a person who wouldjust like, cut you out of my life.
Would not say anything that'smore sudden, I think, than what you're
describing, which is like aslow receding away, like a fading
away. But, yeah, I think I'm alittle surprised because I think
I see you as someone who wouldjust speak your mind.
Well, I would say that more sotoday. Well, let me just say this.

(22:09):
When I coach people who've hada lifetime of one habit, one thought
process, one belief that whenpresented with a new idea, very few
people can actually justcompletely Change their life 180
degrees, turn it all upsidedown, and just divorce themselves
of the old idea. And I alwaystell people, I'm glad that this new
idea serves you, but don't beso quick to just say, I'm cured of

(22:31):
whatever ailment. And I wouldask people who had drinking challenges
an addiction to alcohol. Theysaid, so you're cured? And they would
say to you, pretty, like,almost to the person, you're never
cured of alcoholism. You'rejust trying to get through it day
by day. And you know that ifyou start to tell yourself you're
cured, you can slip back downthat path really quickly. So the

(22:54):
way I look at is my caretakertendencies haven't gone away. They're
just there. And I have to bemindful it's still there and exists.
And I've done a much betterjob of speaking up, telling people
how I feel, despite how it maymake us uncomfortable. Now, here's
the classic irony of all thisstuff. I have an easier time telling
people that I know, like, andtrust what I really think versus

(23:16):
strangers. You would think itwould be the opposite, right? Like,
I don't know you, you don'tknow me, so it don't matter what
we really think of each other.So I'm going to tell you where I
stand on things. But in fact,it's the people that I feel most
close to that I can really sitthere and say, you know what? That
thing that you do reallybothers me. What I would say is,
I'm not going to let you getaway with that. Whatever that statement
is. How, however innocuousInnocuous it feels I'm going to have

(23:40):
to say, no, you can't saythat. And please don't say that about
me. I'll give you an example.Okay. I remember one time my wife
and I were talking and Otto isour oldest son, and he's 20, turning
21 soon, and he's very highachieving. And my wife's like, why
are you so thrifty with givinghim praise and saying to him you're
proud of him? I said, well, Ican make a greater effort. And then

(24:03):
I started to really thinkabout this and, like, why I don't
do something. And then I washaving a conversation with our mutual
friend Annalee, and I said,you know, I feel really uncomfortable
saying I'm proud and I want totell you why and why I'm really kind
of tight on it. I said,usually parents say that to their
children, but I don't want tosay it. And then she was like, whoa,
wait, wait a minute. You meanyou're not proud of your friends?

(24:24):
I'm like, no, what right do Ihave to be proud of them? And so
this is like shocking to her.Well, she goes, well, I'm proud of
you. I'm like, well, let meexplain. So we got into this kind
of really big, deep, emotionalconversation and allow me to explain
this. And Jule, I'd love toget your perspective on this. I said,
if I say I'm proud of you,that means there are times when I'm

(24:46):
not proud of you prettyclearly. And I think most parents
use that phrase as a means tocontrol their children. You might
not think of it like that, butoftentimes it's, oh, you got a great
job, you went to school andyou, you studied the thing I wanted
you to study. And I'm proud ofyou. Or it could be like, you gave
money to charity. I'm proud ofyou because that's what we want you
to do. Or you turn the othercheek. I'm proud of you. So I said,

(25:09):
part of loving someoneunconditionally, unconditional means
without condition. So I lovemy children. I would lay down my
life for my children andthere's nothing I would not do for
them. And I've been tellingthem this since they were like little
children barely old enough tounderstand the words. And the thing
that I would tell them, likelate at night, I would say to them

(25:30):
something to the effect oflike, I want you to know that I love
you and that there is nothingthat you could ever do to make me
stop loving you. And you don'tneed to do anything different than
to be you for me to love you.And if anyone else ever tells you
this in your life, it iscompletely untrue. And I mean that
from the bottom of my heart. Iwould say that over and over and
over again. When I told mytherapist that this is what I was

(25:53):
saying, she goes, just don'tput any question marks on it. Because
I used to say, do you knowDaddy loves you? She said, turn that
into a statement. It's not aquestion. Dad loves you. And so I
keep thinking, if my childrendon't get good grades, don't go to
a good school, don't do theirhomework, get in trouble with the
law, get into all kinds ofthings, I'm so proud of you because
I'm proud that you are my. Mychild. And so when I explained it

(26:16):
to her like that, I think herhead was, like, about to split open.
It's like, I don't want to beproud of them. I am proud of them
always. And there isn't a timethat I'm not proud of them. And I
said, also, I don't say I'mproud to my friends, because what
did I really do to claim thatI'm proud of you? That's like a parental
thing. And I think withoutpeople realizing is violent language.

(26:37):
Because you're saying, I havepower over you, my opinion, my authority,
my approval matters to you.And I'm going to say it. I'm proud
of you. Now, it's a veryinnocent thing, so if this is what
you say to your friends and toyour loved ones, don't let my crazy
ideas about this. But I reallydo think about the words that we
use and how the words shapeour emotions and capture our version

(26:59):
of reality. And they recordstories in our brain. And so that's
where I just sit there andthink, like, why don't I do something?
There is a good reason, atleast for me. And maybe I'm radical
about this, maybe I'm strange,but I'm curious about your thoughts,
Jule. And I'm curious from ouraudience. When you listen to this
episode or in the comments,let me know if you think I'm crazy.

(27:22):
Or maybe this is a point ofview that more parents have to have.
I heard this thing. I think itwas said by the yogi Sadhguru, and
he said something like,children are born perfect. It's their
parents who mess them up. Andso the best thing you can do as a
parent is to do as little harmas possible. It's impossible not
to do harm. But he says do aslittle harm as possible. Because

(27:43):
those innocent statements thatyou say as a parent, like, oh, why
can't you ever be on time? Orwhy are you so clumsy? And it's just
a little moment of frustrationin your life. You don't really mean
those things, but your childprocess these things in a whole different
way. Just like when they dosomething good and you're like, I'm
proud of you. Like, oh, that'swhat I need to do to get dad to like
me, to love me and I need todo more of that. And what they do

(28:06):
is they start to externalizetheir own self worth to you. And
when you aren't around, like,either you pass away or they're in
a different circle, they'relooking to someone else as a surrogate
to replace you. And thensomeone else will have control over
your children. And I don'twant to do that now. I don't want
to get into the wholeparenting and all that kind of stuff,
but I have a lot of crazyphilosophies and reasons why I do.

(28:26):
What I do, man. Like, I canonly imagine what people are going
to think when they listen tothis because I still remember the
first time you expressed anyversion of this. I think it was three
years ago and you were talkingabout this unconditional love. And
I remember like wanting tocry. And I think because like most
people, I don't actually feellike my parents have unconditional

(28:51):
love. In my mind, I'm thinkingif I somehow effed up or murdered
someone, ended up in jail orprison, my parents would disown me
is what I'm thinking. And yetI struggle because my parents have
told me almost every singleday of my life that they love me.
Do they love me? There's nodoubt. I just question whether it's
conditional or unconditional.So the first time I heard you say

(29:14):
this, like, I almost bawled myeyes out. And I was like, oh my God,
I want to cry. And you'relike, how come? And I was like, I
don't know. It's, it's, it'sso much because I had never actually
personally known somebody as aparent who was bold enough to come
out and say this. I'd neverwitnessed it with my own eyes. And
it really triggered like thissuper strong reaction in me. So when

(29:36):
you said to Annalee or whoeverit was that it's not really something
you say, like the whole I'mproud of you to your kids, let alone
to somebody Else, I think manypeople don't understand that the
history of saying that phrase,it's, it's generally reserved for,
within your family, especiallyfrom parent to child or those who
are very close to you, peoplewho had a hand in your achievement

(29:59):
or your progress in some way.Right? So there's, there's like a
very tight association byimplication if you use that phrase.
And yet I have plenty ofstrangers like out there, people
who just like my vibe, theysee me on online, they say it, and,
and so there is like ahierarchy associated there of some
kind, like what you're saying,which I think a lot of people don't

(30:21):
get. But this other piece thatyou were just describing with saying
I'm proud of you kind ofimplies there are moments that I'm
not proud of you. I don'tthink a lot of people think about
that. And when you are raisedin a culture like many of us, or
maybe really all of us, whereparents may unconsciously telegraph

(30:42):
that love is conditional uponperformance of any kind, I think
that's where it gets reallyhard. It gets so hard we don't understand
that our children are likeplants and we are the sun for them.
So every which way we turn,right, they turn with us. And if
we're not careful to show themthat they can stand on their own

(31:05):
and that the sun is alwaysthere regardless, you end up with
most people out here runningaround living their lives and being
triggered with stuff. And Istill feel like strong emotions coming
up. When I listened to youabout, about this and the last bit
when you said you, you'resomebody who thinks about the words

(31:26):
you use. That's me too. Again,I know this isn't all people. We
all communicate in differentchannels. So some people are more
about the non verbals, lessabout the words, but the words really
mattering, like they reallydo, especially in how they shape
our reality, like you said.But also because when you use the

(31:48):
wrong words, you caninadvertently shift your emotions
and what you're feeling. So,so for instance, somebody I was coaching
yesterday, he kept saying hehas to have like a emotional reaction
to something. And I was justlike, but what emotions? It's very,
it's very vague. Like to methat doesn't really tell me much.
So what emotions. And to havegranularity in the words you're using.

(32:10):
Which is the frustration Ihave with some of my friends where
they're like, yeah, but that'snot how people normally use the,
the words. You know, that'snot what people normally mean. Like,
okay, but so then how do weget on the same page of communication?
How would you handle that kindof response?
Which response?
Someone saying, that's not howpeople normally say that or that's

(32:33):
not how people normally meanthe words?
Well, I would say, how do you,how do you know what is normal? And
who defined normal? I wouldjust ask more questions. And while
you were speaking there, I'mpretty sure there's going to be a
couple of people who arelistening to this or watching this
video who are going to getreally upset for a lot of different
reasons or they might have astrong emotional reaction to the

(32:53):
kinds of things that we'retalking about. Anytime you talk about
parents or children, it isgoing to open up a divorce box to
a lot of unresolved childhoodtrauma. Either way. And I'm not going
to tell you I'm any differentbecause when I see organizations
take really good care ofchildren, I get really emotional
because I was, I was a. I'mreally happy for those children,

(33:16):
but also kind of pining for myown childhood. Like, I wish I had
this when I was growing up.And so we feel a little bit of self
pity there, I think, andsorrow for our own childhood. But
I would ask everyone to try todo this thing. Write down 10 things
that you hold to be true, 10beliefs that you have, whatever they
might be, just write themdown. And then do this thing that

(33:37):
I think I read in AustinKleon's book and show you work or,
or steal like an artist oractually is. In my interview with
him, he said, you know, trythis thing where you do this genealogy
of your ideas. When he wastrying to do steal like an artist,
he was saying, like, who firstsaid this to steal like an artist?
And just he went and traced itback as far as he could. Then he

(33:57):
found like the mother orfather of the idea. But if you have
beliefs, just retrace, like,how did you come to believe this
thing? It can almost always betraced back to your childhood. And
then try to see where it camefrom. It came from a book, a TV show,
a sibling, a parent, somethinglike that. And then ask yourself

(34:18):
this question, was howreliable was the source of information?
What was it in response to?And if it weren't in your own childhood
and somebody had said this toyou as an adult, would you still
believe this? And I think thisis where everything starts to become
unraveled. Right? So, Joel,when you said most people don't think
like that or that's not normalfor people to think like that. I'm

(34:39):
like, how do we even know whatnormal is? You have finite experience.
You might know 10, 12 peoplewell enough to say, like, well, that's
normal. And then the rest ofthe people are just assumptions,
I think. And even if it werenormal, we're bad. Should we not
do this anymore? Like, hurtingpeople, I think most people would
agree is not a good thing todo. But if the entire country wants

(35:00):
to hurt people, do you say,well, well, that's what normal is.
Let's go do normal. So even ifit's normal, which I doubt it is,
if it normal is bad, shouldyou do that? And I think, no, that's
what. What it means to haveconviction and what it means to have
a moral code that you live by.
Shoot, man, you're making methink. That would have been the perfect

(35:22):
response to a lot of thecomments I got on my TikTok and Instagram.
So I made a video about howyou should probably not say, I'm
proud of you. Like, it pissespeople off, but people are unable
to articulate why. So this isme going down the rabbit hole after
one client session. Because Iwas like, oh, interesting. Somebody

(35:43):
has a huge problem with this.So then I go research it, and I'm
pulling apart, like, all thethreads. I'm like, okay, I get it
now. So I make a video is veryinteresting. The responses I get,
they're like either on thisend of the spectrum or this end.
So the first end being peoplewho are like, oh, my God, thank you
for explaining this. I couldnever put into words why it made

(36:04):
me so angry when people saidthat to me. But then on the other
hand, you had people who werelike, I've never had a problem with
this. No one has ever said me,you know, said to me that there was
anything wrong with this.Like, maybe you, maybe it's a you
problem. Is the last comment Igot, like, in the last week, like,
basically, I'm crazy oversensitive. And I was like, okay,
one, I never said I have aproblem with this. I'm just saying

(36:25):
maybe if you are interested inhaving easier relationships with
people, perhaps not say this.So that was. That was really interesting.
I don't know. It was. I didn'texpect something. To me, it seems
so innocent to spark so manycomments like, you're crazy, never
had a problem. It's a you,it's a you thing.

(36:46):
Yeah, I can see why theyresponded like that, though. I haven't
seen that post in particular.But if you said, here's why I don't
like this Phrase. And I'lltell you my reasoning for it versus
you shouldn't say this,because then now it's like, well,
now you're criticizing me howI versus you should. I think it's
a small but very bigdifference between those two things.

(37:09):
So I say, if somebody wants tosay they're proud of me, I'm good
with it. I don't feel offendedat all, because you know why. And
here's the dark, ugly,unfiltered truth. I don't really
care what you say. That's thebottom line. But I know a lot of
people do, and they can besent in a lot of different directions.
First of all, let's explorethese two possible outcomes. Okay?

(37:30):
Somebody comes up to you thatkind of knows you, and you did something
that they may or may not havebeen involved in, and you have great
success, like, I'm reallyproud of you, Jimmy, or Mary. And
the first reaction is like,wow, thank you. But are you taking
credit for what this outcomeis? Is that why you're proud of me?
Or do you think I hold you insuch esteem that I care that you

(37:51):
be proud of me? Or only myparents say I'm proud of me and I
care what they say, but whothat for you. And then you start
going down all kinds of otheremotions and reactions. So a lot
of them are not good possibleoutcomes. Or we can just say we'll
just ignore it. It's notreally a big deal. So that means
you've wasted words today. Idon't want to waste any words. Especially

(38:14):
as an introvert, I want to saythings that matter, that have impact
and are intentional in alignwith what I'm really thinking. And
if I say something wrong, I'dlike to know why. And then I want
to make adjustments. I don'twant to keep doing it just because
it's a good habit or it's ahabit that I have. And so a lot of
times when people say thingslike paying someone a compliment,

(38:34):
and I would say to them, youknow, that's a violent thing you
just did. And they're shockedthat I would say that. And then I
would have to go through thiswhole rabbit hole and explain to
them, like, why. And he said,if you're curious, you should watch
this video on this and you'llsee. And in fact, the person I'm
talking about is our friendRich. And he was saying something
like, I'm proud of them fordoing this, or whatever it is. And

(38:55):
I explained to him, and thenhe was just giving me a Hard time.
He goes, chris, I'm very proudthat you told me that I shouldn't
be proud. That wanker.
So good.
Yeah. So I'm like, whatever,whatever. Hold on to your beliefs.
So I think the, the thing thata lot of people have a reaction to
is you should or shouldn't.And then all of a sudden like, wait,

(39:15):
wait, who are you telling meto what to do? And it's funny because
I always think like this,where if someone says something you
don't agree with and you'renot a big fan of theirs, just move
on. Why bother even giving acomment? But I think everyone feels
so not entitled, but they feelit's so necessary to express your
opinion on every single thingthat we get pulled into these polarizing

(39:37):
conversations and debatesbecause it gets our emotional juices
flowing. But I don't know ifit's horribly productive if I don't
agree with something. I justdon't watch it.
Yeah, I, I did question why somany people felt this strong urge
to argue with me on my video.I'm like, why didn't you just scroll
by? And then I'm turning thatback on myself too, right? Because

(39:58):
I'm like, why do I feel theneed to defend myself? And I'm like,
well, some of the time I'mjust asking a question to see if
there's been any thoughtprocess in their response. Most of
the time, no. I think what'sinteresting is when I ask a question
and then they make itpersonal, I'm like, what the hell
was that? You know, like. Likethe person who was like, well, it

(40:18):
sounds like a you problembased on some question I asked him.
And I was like, okay, well,sir, it sounds like you're not interested
in having like a realconversation, so have a good day.
And. And like, that's aboutit. But let me rewind back to something
you said. You don't have aproblem with the phrase because you're
like, basically, I don't carewhat you say or what you think about
me. I have a differentresponse to that. So when someone

(40:40):
says they're proud of me, Idon't really care. But it's because
I'm weighing their intent. SoI'm looking at their intent behind
the words. And like, mostpeople are not as careful of their
words. I understand that. Whatare they trying to do in this moment?
I think they're just trying toshow me love. And I'm a huge believer
in just letting the love in.Take it in.

(41:01):
Yeah, I think I would. I wouldprobably Take it the same way you
took it, which is. Okay,thanks. Appreciate it. And sometimes,
you know, I don't have to sitthere and chop words because people
don't think about things that.That in that same insane detail.
So I'm like, thank you. And wejust move on. That's all.
What was the thing? I thinkyou mentioned something you wanted
to talk about at the verybeginning of this.

(41:23):
Yeah, I can. I could talkabout that. But is there more to
this that we want to pull apart?
Not more to this, but there'spotentially a bridge. Because I was.
You know how I was tellingyou, I was thinking about accountability,
responsibility, boundaries,and then the latest thing about values.
Remember, like, how I'mtelling you there are some things

(41:44):
happening where when a certaintype of thing happens, something
I perceive as weakness, andthen I start to lose respect. So
respect is like the. Really?Yeah, that's. That's really hard.
So I asked my husband atlunch, and I was like, how would
you define what respect is?And he was like, what the hell? Just
Google that. I don't know howto answer that. It's like a hard

(42:05):
question.
We use it, but we don't know.
Yeah. And I think that's theissue with most of the things that
we are faced with aschallenges today.
My guess at that would be tohold you in high regard, highesty,
same. And if you lose that,then I kind of look down on you or
I don't see you as an equal anymore.
Okay, that's interesting. Ithink the distinction of what you

(42:27):
just said, the very last bit,I don't see you as an equal anymore,
wasn't really in my picture ofthe understanding, but I think that
is what happens with a lot ofpeople. So here's.
I can. I can respect the waysomebody does something, but not
respect them. Like, I canrespect that you want to live your
life the way you want to liveit, or to eat the kind of food you
want to eat or talk to peoplethe way you want to talk to. Because

(42:49):
I'm not king of the world. Noone elected me. And I'm not looking
to have that kind of dominionor that control or power over people.
So I believe that there canbe. And I'm probably going to get
skewered for this is multipleversions of air quotes, truths. And
both of our realities can bereal, and both. Both of them can

(43:11):
be false. Until there's like,objectively verifiable data, then
we just don't know. And I havea way of living and thinking and
beliefs that drive me, thathave led me to a place of contentment,
of happiness, of success, thatif people want to learn that, I'm
happy to share it. But ifsomething else works for you, I should

(43:32):
say you do that thing. Theclassic example is I'm very much
soft spoken inbound buildingcontent and getting people to gather
around saying Kris, we want togive you something and say well that's
fantastic. I must be doingsomething right at this point. And
there are people who are likeno, you can't be passive about this.
You must be proactive. Youmust go and reach out to people in
an outbound way and just askfor opportunities all the time. Those

(43:55):
are two polarizing, like polaropposite ideas. Inbound versus outbound.
I think they can work inharmony. One is not better than the
other. It's whatever works foryou. But I live my life a certain
way and so if people want tolearn that then I want to share that
thing. And then I find thatthere are people who have tremendous
success doing outbound. Likeour, our this person I've mentioned

(44:18):
to you, Neil Dhingra, he'sliterally a, give me a, give me a
sales list. I'm just going tocall people, I'm a dm, every single
one of them. I'm going toleave a message on all of them. And
he's very, very successful.He's made a lot of money and just
to mere thought of that justmakes me want to like crawl back
in bed and it's like wake meup when it's Wednesday because I
don't want to do that. Andprobably for him, the kinds of things
that I do make him like, dude,that's infuriating. Why would you

(44:41):
sit around and wait for it tohappen? It's just two different ways
of existence. And that's why Ican respect the way that you do something
while not having respect foryou. And usually it's because of
this idea of accountabilityand AKA broader term weakness.
Okay, so what's the differencebetween respecting what someone is

(45:04):
doing versus respect forsomeone? How does, how does one gain
respect from you, Chris, as aperson then shoot. You set yourself
up for this man.
Shoot. Well I, I don't think Iset myself over this. But now you're
asking a really hard question.I, I would ask this first question,
why would anyone need to, toearn my respect? What does it do

(45:24):
for anybody? I admire certainpeople. Should I answer the question
that way? Who do you admire? Why?
I don't know. I feel likeyou're dodging the question. Because,
like, can we be in friendshipsor relationships with people where
we knowingly or we know thatthey don't respect us? I feel like
that's a ton.
Oh, that's a good question.Yeah, I don't think, like, true friendship

(45:47):
can exist from a place whereyou don't respect each other, but
it takes a while for us tounderstand. For example, if you meet
someone who looks totallydifferent than you, comes from a
different culture, usesdifferent ways of saying things,
your initial reaction is toassociate them with someone else
or some group of people. Andyou might assume, okay, those people
talk like this and act likethis, and they're not trustworthy,

(46:10):
they're not ambitious ordriven, whatever it is that you want
to put it on some form of likelow key racism or prejudice. Let's
just soften the word and notcall it racism, but call it prejudice,
okay? Because it doesn't haveanything to do with race. And you
put them in a category so youmight not have any respect for them.
The example would be peoplewear very baggy pants. Men who like,
let it hang around theirwaist. And we see all kinds of people,

(46:32):
Asian, white, black, Latino,all kinds. So you look at them, you're
like, your pants are reallylow. I can't take you seriously.
But that person could be theCEO of a company or who could have
graduated from an Ivy Leagueschool, whatever metrics you want
to use for success. And youthink that person deserves my respect.
So I think initially when weencounter people, we jump to conclusions

(46:52):
about who they are. And Idon't think it's necessarily horrible
that we do that because it's away of using our brain efficiently.
So we're not sitting thereprocessing every single person on
an individual level. We'remaking decisions if we should fight
flight or what's the thirdone? Some other.
Freeze.
Freeze. Yeah, so we don't knowif it's one of these three that we
should do. So that's ashorthand. Like, we process things,

(47:14):
but when we get to knowsomeone, I think then we say to ourselves,
I was wrong. My assumptionsabout you were X, Y and Z. And they're
totally different. Like,people might see one video of me
and think what an arrogant ahole who has is just talking out
of both sides of his mouth,who doesn't know what he's doing.
And they may watch anothervideo or another video, or they might

(47:35):
see me in the street somewhereand have a real conversation with
me and they're like, wow,Chris, I was wrong about you. And
at first I appreciate that ittakes a lot for especially men to
say I was wrong and to thenapproach me and to stay in that long
enough to say, my bias got thebest of me. But I stayed in it because
I was curious. And then it ledme to this place. And I was brave

(47:55):
enough to say this. I reallydo appreciate that. But on the other
side, I was thinking, why dowe have such strong assumptions about
people and so littleinformation? You know, I drive people
crazy when I say this. Theydidn't have enough data points. One
or two things should not bethe entire thing. It's like two shreds
of evidence that you think,okay, I'm done. Not hung jury, but

(48:16):
it's like, unanimous done.You're guilty, you're innocent. And
that's where it gets reallydangerous. So I think there's a natural
period of time in which twostrangers get to know each other,
and they may swing back andforth of giving, taking, receiving
respect. And at some point,they. They arrive at a place where
they can really say, I don'treally respect that person.
I. I think this is one of thehardest questions like, I've ever

(48:39):
started exploring, and I don'thave it fully figured out yet. I
think what you're saying isinteresting because I started Googling
this today. I started askingChatGPT to help me, like, tease out
some of these nuances in thethinking. And it kind of says the
opposite of what you'resaying. Or. Or maybe it's the same
because it's saying that youcan not respect someone's actions

(49:05):
and yet still respect them asa person. Perhaps your respect for
the overall person lessensbecause of what you see them doing,
and yet you're still able tohold respect of them, the big picture
of them as a person, whileacknowledging your own disappointment
in seeing the actions thatthey're choosing. And I thought my

(49:27):
reaction in the moment was, Ithink that's a more enlightened.
Like that would require afairly enlightened person to draw
those kind of distinctions. Idon't know that I'm there yet. It's.
It's me struggling with my ownjudgment when I see my friends acting
in a way that does not alignwith my own beliefs or my values.

(49:48):
And then there's this thing ofmy boundaries, like, how much of
that do I want to be around?And now if we're talking about respect.
So the interesting bit when Iwas asking my husband was respect.
And I was describing some ofthe scenarios that I've been seeing
over the past, like, month andhe was like, I think what you're
talking about is reallyadmiration. And I was like, oh, oh,

(50:09):
same words I used. Yeah. See?And I feel like if you ever meet
Jason, you would like him. Heprobably thinks similarly to, we're
all three a little bit, youknow, we have stuff in common. I
was like, admiration. So Itake a step back and I look at it
and I was like, oh, I see.See. So when we're talking about
the meanings of wordsshifting, right, like how they're
actually defined in thedictionary or in psychology versus

(50:32):
how they're used in themainstream, this is one of those
words that has a split here.So if you look in the dictionary,
it means to have fullawareness and appreciation for a
person's humanity. And I waslike, okay, I don't think I ever
really lose that for anybodyout there. Not even, like, criminals.
So then I asked ChatGPT, I waslike, okay, but I don't think this

(50:53):
is how people normally use theword. This is not what we mean. And
I give it an example, and sothen it comes back with something
that's actually pretty good. Ithought it said it's. It's conditional.
And I was like, oh, ouch. It'sconditional. So there's this intersection
between your values, yourboundaries, and then maybe like a

(51:14):
resonance. And thatintersection there in the middle
is respect.
The.
That's how we're typicallyusing the word. So there has to be
some alignment between allthree of these areas for us to then
say. Because What I toldChatGPT was, I feel like we generally
use the word in regards toseeing someone doing something that
we think was hard, somethingthat is deserving of recognition

(51:36):
or is noteworthy. You don'tsay, I respect you for doing your
laundry. I'm like, that's thebare basic, like, to life. But. But
you know, one of my peoplethat I coached yesterday, he's coming
up on a year of having gone tothe gym, working out five days a
week, every week. And I waslike, I have mad respect for you,
man. That is crazy. Like, Ilove that. So then that had me dialing

(52:00):
back and I was like, okay, sowhat about the moments when I feel
like I'm losing respect forsomeone? It's exactly like this thing
with ChatGPT. So the reasonwhy I'm talking about this is cuz
I had a coaching session whereI was the one being coached and I
was telling my coach that Ithink it's like me losing respect
for someone is primarilyrooted in a conflict in values. I

(52:22):
don't think she agreed withthat. She was saying that it's. The
conflict I'm experiencing isbecause of my filters. Like, my filters
are different from otherpeople's filters. And I'm like, okay,
isn't that what values are?Like. Like, at least part of that.
You don't look like you fully agree.

(52:43):
No, I do agree.
Okay.
And as you describe this,because I've done zero research,
I've talked to zero robots, Iwas trying to map out what you said.
Like, did I describe myselfclearly? And is this really how I
think? That's. I look at itlike, everybody gets to live their
life the way they want bytheir own rules and their values.
And somebody might look at meand say, you're not a very ethical

(53:04):
person. I might look at themand say the exact same thing. So
there's no universal, like,this is. This is it. It's heavily
based on context and what'sgoing on. So I think when we say,
like, I look down on somebody,that means I think I've lost all
respect for them. And so thereare different. Different criteria
for that. I can respect thatthey're hardworking, they're a good

(53:28):
friend, that they take care ofothers and they're generous, but
there's things that they can'tor don't seem to take accountability
for. And so for me, it's.It's. I'm very flexible with this
kind of stuff, and I givepeople lots of latitude because I
know I'm an imperfect personmyself. I do dumb, stupid things,
hopefully less as I get older,but I still do dumb, stupid things
all the time. It's not fair tojudge myself in such a way that every

(53:51):
time I mess up, like, oh,you're such an idiot. You don't deserve
respect or love orappreciation or admiration. And so
I think the same. It's like,what is good for me must be good
for others. So I think there'sa large latitude there. So I think,
rephrasing my statement, Ithink I respect the fact that people
have a different way of movingin the world, that their individual

(54:11):
actions. Sometimes I havechallenges with myself. And when
they do enough of them thathint at a core value, then something
feels funny inside. Like, Idon't know if I want to open the
fullness of my heart to thisperson because there's something
misaligned in values. So Imust be very enlightened, Jule, because
that's what you said. Tonguein cheek, everybody.

(54:32):
How convenient, man.
Yes, you. You are correct indescribing my exact belief better
than I Could have.
Okay, so let me describe thiscoaching session I had with my coach
towards the end. Like, ifyou've never had coaching, you're
listening to us. It generallystarts with what do you want to talk
about? And then towards theend it has to move to some sort of
conclusion, which is notalways the case with therapy. This

(54:55):
is a major difference betweenthe two modalities here. So coaching
is meant for you to, like,take action. Like you realize something
or even if you don't, it'smeant for you to take action and
move forward in some way. Soat the end she asks me, what do you
want to do? And I said, Ithink I need to reevaluate some of
the relationships in my lifeand possibly take a step back. And

(55:15):
she goes, why? And I said,because it's now been long enough
that I believe I have a fairlyclear picture of someone, like a.
A well rounded picture ofpeople in my life. It's not like
I've only known them for liketwo weeks. You know, I'm seeing a
difference in values. And ifyou've been listening to this and
you don't understand this bitabout the boundaries, the boundaries

(55:38):
are, I don't want to be aroundthat anymore. So this is where it
can get a little bit murkyhere. Because in coaching, and I'm
sure they tell you this intherapy too, when you're a therapist,
you cannot be attached tosomeone's outcomes. So if a client
comes to me and they're like,I want to do this, I want to do this,
and they never take action.You're not supposed to be attached

(55:59):
to whether they take theaction. And so for me, I'm not. It's
more that I need them to havehonesty. So honesty is probably my
top value. And my coach waslike, yeah, like, that's like the
first word I think of when Ithink of you. And she did a really
good job in pointing outattachment, though. So attachment
to my values. And I was like,but don't I get to be attached to

(56:21):
that? So the irony, I think isI felt like she was judging me for
making the decision I made. Atthe end of the session, she's.
Like, don't you be so judgingJule. Wait, what irony?
Yeah, so me saying I justdon't want to be around certain kind
of energies. And by energies,I mean it's really a difference in

(56:42):
values. Like I want to bearound people who are honest, who
are brave enough to be honest,who speak up and ask for what they
want, who will try to Helpthemselves instead of relying on
me for 100% of the help,always, like, that's what I want
in my friends and my family.And I don't think, like, she took
exception to that for somereason. So, yeah, I was like, ah,

(57:05):
okay. Attachment and judgment,but we're human, right? Like, that's
part of human nature.
See, I respect that you get tohave your own worldview. And if you
wish to set up boundaries andsay, I don't want to be around that,
I think that's yourprerogative. Because I think when
I judge you for that, then Isay I hold a superior position, that
I have some enlightenment overyou. And to say, like, my way is

(57:28):
better, I think it's adangerous position to take.
I mean, it can be. You know, Ithink it would be different if I
had come to her and said,these are my views and I don't want
to be around this kind ofenergy. And yet I'm still having
some kind of problem. So in mymind, a coach and a therapist, they
share the same mission, wherethey will point out, like, the problems
and where you say, this iswhat you want, and yet there's a

(57:50):
gap here. There's some sort ofdiscrepancy. But for me, there is
no discrepancy. I was like,this is the conclusion. And. And
I. I think this is the rightnext step for me. And to have her
question that I was a littlebit like, what just happened? That
was weird. So, yeah, soperhaps it was attachment and judgment
as well. See, it's. This iswhat I mean, though, as a coach and

(58:12):
probably for therapists, thisattachment to the identity of what
that means if you're in thoseprofessions, like, you're somehow
supposed to transcend this.
Yeah, I see. I think I have avery specific way of looking the
world. Like, here's what Iwant to eat. Here's how I want to

(58:32):
move my body and use energy.Here's how I want to nourish my mind.
And these are the kinds ofrelationships I want to build. And
this is how I want to parentmy own children. And this is the
business I want to build. Andthis is how I want to show up online.
This is how I want to dressand send signals out into the world.
And I'm okay with someone elsesaying, everything you said is totally
not for me. I'm like, I'm goodwith that. But then I say, for the

(58:57):
people who want to have what Ihave or think what I think and eat
what I eat and wear what Iwear, I'm going to help you. But
like you said, from anyteacher, coach point of view, if
you have misalignment betweenwhat you express your beliefs or
goals and outcomes are, butthe actions are incongruent with
that outcome, then I think therelationship is such that I must

(59:21):
say something. The degree willprobably depend on what the stakes
are between the two of us, butI feel compelled to say something
because if you want to dothese things, then you got to just
let go of some old ideas. SoI'll share one thing with you. I
think I'm okay with sayingthis. One of my buddies, Rich, who
produces our podcast, who mostlikely his team will be editing this

(59:43):
very episode and releasing it,I notice a pattern. And Rich and
team, if this feelsuncomfortable for me to disclose,
please just put that outthere. I think he has a very high
moral code. He's ex military.And I think what I understand from
people in the military is inthe world of military life, everything
works in a very binary way.It's right, it's wrong, you're on

(01:00:05):
time, you're late, you'reneat, or you're sloppy. There isn't
a lot of gray. And I thinkthat's beautiful for a lot of people.
And ex military people thensometimes struggle with the idea
that civilian life is anythingbut black and white. It's not binary
at all. It's like super grayand murky, and they have a hard time
adjusting to that. And so inthe military, you are going to lay
your life down for someone andyou're not going to leave somebody

(01:00:26):
behind in a battlefield. Andthey require that kind of care for
each other so that they don'tabandon one another. And so your
word means a lot in themilitary because you're honorable
or you're dishonorable. It'skind of really black and white. So
in civilian life, people sayall kinds of weird things and they
change their mind. And. Andyou can get really upset because
you're still using thatframework or that mindset from the

(01:00:50):
military. And so it's kind of,like, led into a lot of ways of Rich
thinking about things. Like,for example, I find that every time
I talk to him about a businessor a client idea that's new and foreign
to him, his first kind ofreaction, his default, is, no, that's
not going to work. That'sproblematic, and I'll tell you why.

(01:01:11):
And I'm like, okay, that'sfine. And then we get into, like,
fashion, which is seeming likeso disconnected from business, and
I say, hey, show me whatyou're looking at. And so he'll show
me a bunch of clothes thatlook almost just like what he wears,
but slightly different. Andhe's asking me, chris, I really need
help with learning how todress. I'm like, cool. But everything
I show you say no to. Andeverything that you show me is just

(01:01:33):
10 degrees different than whatyou already wear. So I start to feel
like the disconnect, like youasking me for help. So I kind of
have to just ask you to justtry. I don't want you to buy it,
but just try. So I tell him,sit in the discomfort for a little
bit. And the first word thatcomes out of your mouth should not
be no, it should be, let mesee what happens. So we did this

(01:01:56):
weird exercise. It's almostkind of like really strange. Like
we're two junior high kids ona sleepover. Although he didn't sleep
over. Him. I sent him to aroom and there's a full length mirror.
I said, try these things on.And he's bigger than me. So he's
like, how could I possibly fitinto any of your clothes, Chris?
I said, well, that'll be myproblem, wouldn't it? Okay, again,

(01:02:19):
all that negativity, let's seewhere it goes. Okay. So I would go
from my closet over to him,like one piece at a time. Because
I was looking for things thatI'm like, these are oversized, loose
cut things that he couldpossibly wear. Lots of things won't
fit. I didn't give himanything that wouldn't fit. And the
simple thing of putting some,some bracelets on him, some beads

(01:02:40):
or whatever, the first time heput it on, I could tell you looked
at it like, no. I said,remember, just give it a try. And
so he's able to do that. Andthen I come back and in between going
back and forth from where hewas into my bedroom or my closet,
he had enough time to sit inthe discomfort that he's like, oh,

(01:03:00):
this isn't bad. Actually, thisis kind of cool. I like this. So
he went from no, no, no, no,to like, wow, I'm. I'm shocked as
heck that I'm even liking thisright now, Chris. So from baggy pants
with suspenders to loosefitting coats that look like you're
a child wearing them, it'sjust a different cut with drop shoulders.
And he just walked away and hesent me this really lovely message.

(01:03:23):
And he goes, chris, I don'tknow. I don't know exactly what it
was, but I think you opened orunlocked something in my mind this
weekend, and I just wanted tothank you for it. And I'm liking
this new frame that I'mlooking at the world, because I kept
telling him, man, I'm notsuper intelligent, but I can spot
a pattern when I see one. Andyou keep demonstrating the exact

(01:03:45):
same pattern. You say nobefore you say yes. I said, flip
it around. If someone presentsa business idea for you, and they're
eight dumb ideas but two goodones. Look for the good ones and
don't even listen to the badones. Totally. Okay. But you let
the bad ones be so loud thatyou cannot pick up what's good anymore,
and you're missing theopportunity, and that's going to

(01:04:05):
hold you back for the rest ofyour life. So we can play with business
and we can play with fashion.But, like, you've heard me say this
before. How you do one thingis how you do everything. That's
a Massimo Vignelli line. Soit's like, if you can open your mind
about fashion, then you canprobably open up your mind about
business and possibly evenabout people. And so that's kind
of where we netted out on that.

(01:04:25):
That's really cool. Also,can't wait to see Rich's updated
wardrobe.
He's gonna look like me.
I. When he said, well, first,how am I gonna fit your clothes?
Or, like, I'm bigger,whatever, he said, dude, I cracked
up because that was my literalfirst thought. Because I had the
same first thought when youdid the same thing with Drigo. I

(01:04:47):
was like, aren't they, like, afoot taller than you? Like, literally,
you're like, stopping.
Wait, hold on, hold on. Letme. Drigo's not 6 8, all right? He's
6 4. He's probably actually 65. I think he lies. He's one of the
few people who lies downinstead of lies up. Drigo's six four.
I'm five eight. So that's notquite a foot. I mean, if he's 6 8,
I'm like, yes, it feels like afoot. I give you that. And there

(01:05:11):
are things that I own that hecan try on and he's tried on, and
he's like, huh? Okay. But,yes, I do have things that are not
all, like, slim cut, you know,for 29 inch ways, because we're built
very different. Even thoughRich and I are very similar in height,
he's got a much bigger,pronounced muscular chest. So those.
That's not going to fit. Andhis waist is a little bit bigger.

(01:05:31):
He's just got Bigger meat on him.
Bigger meat.
I don't know how else to say that.
Dude. This is. This is theunfilternedness. Bigger meat. I'm
gonna hold up this picturebecause this is something that I've
been showing my clients thisweek. So I think what you described

(01:05:52):
really aligns with this. It'snot exactly the same, but there's,
like, a very similar patternhere. Yes, right. Like the people
who constantly say no, who arelooking for the. The reasons why
something won't work insteadof why it might work. For me, it's
this constant question of myclients in the last, I don't know,

(01:06:12):
three weeks, month. But justin general, like, the entire lifetime
is a perpetual focus on whatthey don't want instead of what they
do want. So a lot of peopleasking me for help around finding
their purpose, and when I askthem, okay, so what? What do they
want? You know, what all theiranswers are is what they don't want.
So then I ask them again, andI keep asking them again, and then

(01:06:34):
we reach a point where I'mlike, you realize all your answers
are, like, what you don'twant. And while that can be helpful
to some degree, it's notreally going to help you laser in
on, like, the thing if you'retruly seeking that same energy that
I feel motivated by everysingle day. And I think all of these
are really interconnected.Right? The habit of saying no before.
Yes. So maybe that's theexercise, like, one of the things

(01:06:56):
that we have the audience givea try. Right. Instead of your perpetual
no. Like your habitual no.Instead, replace it with, why don't
I just give it a try? Becausethat was one of the lessons. My mentor,
coach, she has this bookcalled Life's Little Lessons, something
like that. Her name is MarianFranklin. And one of the things in
there is, every day for amonth, just say yes to everything.

(01:07:18):
As long as it doesn't harmyou, just say yes. I remember reading
that, and I was like, oh, thatseems a little scary, but I did it.
Yeah.
And you're still alive, Joel?
I am, yeah.
A lot of people like to asksomething like, why? And just add
one extra word. Why not? Justadd the word not. Why not? Hey, you

(01:07:40):
want to go out and try thissuper spicy, uncooked food? Why not?
Hey, you want to listen tothis kind of music that's a little
weird. Why not? And just gofor it. Now, Jule, I know you and
I can talk literally for hoursat a time, but I'm thinking this
might be a good Time toconclude this very first episode

(01:08:01):
of Unfiltered 1 in which ifyou all let us know in the comments
that you. You want to hearmore of these kinds of conversations
and let it meander, totallyunstructured and to kind of see what
kinds of things itch ourbrain, then let us know. Comment
the word unfiltered and we'lldo more episodes like this.
Oh, my God. But are youactually going to respond?

(01:08:22):
No, I won't respond inOrdinary Member. I'm like, unfiltered.
Why? Why the hell are theysaying that, Joel? I have no freaking
clue. But I will end this witha con. Like a quick question for
you. Okay. I mean, it's aquestion, but I'd like a quick response.
When we ask ourselves, like,what is it that we want? I'm going
to just build on that. So I'mgoing to put you on the spot. I don't

(01:08:43):
want you to overthink this.Don't give me some middle the fence
kind of answer. Middle of theroad, fence straddling answer. When
you have prospects, clientscome to you as someone that needs
your coaching. What do youwant from them? As in, what is the
ideal student showing up orthe ideal client showing up as? What

(01:09:06):
do they do? What do theythink? How do they behave?
The ideal student looks a lotlike me. They're an immigrant or
the child of an immigrant.They feel a strong sense of responsibility
of their own life. They knowthat they own their life and they're
ready to do something aboutit. They're usually pretty smart.
They are frustrated bysomething going on in their life.

(01:09:29):
For me, when I say it's, it'sreally like me, like my earlier self.
A lot of the time, I thinkI've spent most of my life just really
feeling uncomfortable withmyself. I felt like, terrified to
put one toe out of linebecause it's like, oh my God, people
will judge me and then what?So I wasn't moving up in the corporate
world in one of my jobs, hadno idea why. Now I look back, I'm

(01:09:52):
like, of course. Makes so muchsense. So that's the ideal person
for me who's like, they havesome idea of where they want to get
to, but they don't knowwhat's. What's getting in that in
their way because they'relacking a lot of people skills. So
if you're saying, don't bemiddle of the road, it's the people
who are immigrants lackingpeople skills, and they just want
someone to tell them, like,give them the map and be like, I'll

(01:10:12):
break it down. I'll break itdown. I'll tell you what to say,
and if that person tells yousomething, I'll tell you how to respond.
Because that's what I wanted.
I'm gonna take my ownquestion, throw it out there, because
people do ask me oftentimes,what is it that you look for in something
you want to mentor or someonethat you're going to coach? Okay.
I'm in this stage in my lifewhere I need to be mindful of how

(01:10:33):
I spend my time. Money isgood. I'm not going to turn money
down, but I don't find itparticularly fruitful, fulfilling
to take someone's money and tocoach them through something. And
as we said earlier today, theline I would use is, hey, I endeavor
to be the best coach that canbe. So in order for me to best be
the best coach, I need you tobe the best student. And here's what
the best student looks like.And if you can honor that part of

(01:10:55):
the agreement, we're going todo great things together. I can.
I can almost guarantee it. Andwhere this always breaks down, almost
always is you come in it withgreat intention, you spend the money,
but you actually don't commityourself to doing the work. So in
a weird, weird way, I justwant somebody who's totally fed up,
just like you, Jule, who'sfrustrated, who has a ginormous problem

(01:11:16):
that if they can't get fixed,it's going to ruin their personal
life, their business life, orsomething else in between. And to
come to me with an open heartand open mind to say, like, I've
tried in a lot of dumb ways.I'm tired of doing that. I'm ready
to do what you say. And we canmove mountains together in a very
short amount of time. Becausenothing would make me more excited
to pour into someone and seethem do that. I mean, I'm electric

(01:11:39):
or electrified or whatever itis. I'm through the roof with energy
and adrenaline. Like, I amready to do the next thing with you
because you just kick majorbutt. And all you needed was a little
piece of information. Maybe itwas permission or the words that
you need to say. And if youjust say it, you're going to do great.
And that's why people ask mehow long I'm going to do this job
for, this job of educatingthis general public. I said for as

(01:12:02):
long as the messages keepcoming back, that because of X, I
was able to achieve. Why Ijust want more of them. To be my.
My students, my mentees, myclients. And that would give me great
joy. The problem is peoplewill ask for advice and not take
it. So in the world offashion, there are three gentlemen
in particular who've beenasking me for help. And I'm starting

(01:12:25):
to get really fed up with allthree of them. I don't want to mention
names, but I was like, why doyou keep asking me for my help? I
tell you what you need to do,and then you resist, resist, resist.
I'm not even getting paid forthis, Jule. So I'm thinking I got
better things to do. Luckilyfor each and every one of them, it
just took enough of that kindof resistance for them to have a

(01:12:46):
small breakthrough. But I'mtelling you right now, Jule, the
next person comes to me, I'mlike, nope, we're not having this
conversation. You must commit.I don't want to hear any lip from
you. If I tell you to do thisand you don't do it, I'm done. That's
the agreement. Because I. Idon't have time to waste on this.
That would be it.
I think I'm gonna addsomething like that to my contract.
Yeah, you should.
I have this extra page to mycontract, which is not normal. It

(01:13:09):
says what to expect whenworking together. And there's, like,
all these things of what yousay you're gonna do, like you're
agreeing to do, and you haveto initial each one of them, and,
yeah, I think I need somethinglike this. What you're talking about.
I don't think it even needs tobe an extra page. You could reduce
all the other words and justbring it down to this, because without

(01:13:29):
this, everything else is moot.If you. If you want to search Carlos
Segura's letter to clients,the agreement. Right. And you can
do some version of that, andit doesn't have to be that complicated.
You have a problem, I haveanswers. It's something like that.
You pay me, and then you dothe work, or we cannot work together.
It doesn't have. Yeah, I betyou with a couple of rounds of GPT.

(01:13:51):
It's like, I want you to dothe most violent, aggressive version
of this agreement and keep itas simple as possible. You'll come
up with that agreement reallyquickly, and I think, wouldn't that
be great? Like, if everybodyjoined a gym membership or if anyone
who. Whatever it is youcommitted yourself to with your word
that you actually just followthrough. It's been the biggest secret

(01:14:11):
to my success, Jule. Hiresmart people. Listen to them and
know that you didn't haveanswers. That's why you hired them.
And just do whatever they say.Do it to the best of your ability,
exactly the way you wereinstructed. Don't try to change it,
just do it over and overagain. And then when you really tried
and you know you tried, tryone more freaking time. And if it
still doesn't work out, thentry another thing. But what happens

(01:14:32):
is people self sabotage fromthe jump. They don't do it exactly
the way they instruct itbecause they think they know better.
And then when it doesn't workout, well, you've manifested it not
to work out. If they tell youto make 100 calls and you make 14
and you're like, well, itdidn't work in 14 calls, well, you
didn't do the hundred calls.Or if they say do, I don't know,
end the call with this call toaction and you change that. You don't

(01:14:54):
really know if it didn't workor was you who made it not work.
And so that's why I think,gosh, I'm just getting too old and
too cranky. Notes, if you wantto work with me, this is the way
it's going to work. Otherwise,save your time, save your money,
save some of my grief, please.
Your age is the excuse for crankiness.
Yeah, you notice how oldpeople ain't got time for bs?

(01:15:14):
Oh, so you agree you're old?
I am old. I tell people I'mold and I'm delighted when there
are other people on stage thatare older than me. I'm like, God
dang it, I'm the young gun uphere right now. It's not often I
could say that. I mean, Iremember looking at my students at
Art center and saying, okay,so I've been running my company since
1995. And they just gasp. Likeliterally. They don't. It's not even

(01:15:34):
like an imagination. T waseven born in 1995. So I say, so I've
been running my businesslonger than you've been alive. So
the smart person in this roomwould say, well, let's take your
experience, condense it downso I could avoid some of the mistakes
that you've made so I can geta shortcut to achieving what it is
I want. And that's the wholepoint of education. We would not

(01:15:55):
go to school if we thoughtwe're only going to recommit all
the same mistakes again. Thenjust save your money, save your time,
just go explore the worldyourself and make up, make all the
Mistakes in the world.
Yep, I agree. Well, thanks forthe call, man. This was fun as always.
Thanks, Joel. Let me tease thenext episode. Next time I won't remember
any of this, but next timewe'll talk about a spiritual walk

(01:16:17):
that I had with my wife and mykids recently in Mount Shasta. And
my wife has been exploringquantum entanglement, quantum particle,
quantum physics, and alternaterealities and timelines and everything.
And it's her trip into, like,mysticism and sometimes the occult.
It's been fascinating for meto watch, and I want to share some
of the things I learned.

(01:16:37):
I cannot wait. I. I love this.This side of you with everything
Jesse's learning, and I cannotwait to learn everything about this.
I love this.
I'm just going to give youfragments of what I've overheard.
So of course, then we. We'llsee what happens there.
You know what the answer is?You got to bring her on.
I. I can try.

(01:16:58):
We got to talk.
She's practicing some thingsand she's like, let me do a sonic
bath, A sound. Sound bath for.For your audience. I'm like, babe,
how are they going to feel it?They'll feel it. So maybe we'll have
her off camera and she could,she could do something. She has a
hand pan, too. She plays quitewell, but she's like, too self conscious
to play that.
Oh, my God, I love this. Yeah,I love this. I was thinking of getting

(01:17:21):
one. That's so cool.
Yeah, they're pretty cool.Yeah. So maybe she'll jam for us.
Just off. Off the record.We'll see what happens. Okay, that's
it. So this is an unusual anddifferent approach to our content,
everybody. So bear with us aswe work through this. But I think
sometimes when we're havingthese conversations, I think real
gems come out. And it's a pitythat you can't always be there with

(01:17:45):
us to hear what we hear and tokind of learn from each other. And
this is an attempt to helpbring you in in that conversation.
Thanks for sticking out to thevery end with us. I'm Chris do, and
I describe myself as a loudintrovert. Sometimes I'm critically
sharp. I'm a middle child anda recovering graphic designer.
This is Jule Kim. And I loveteaching people how to talk to other

(01:18:05):
people without being sofreaking awkward.
Perfect.
Sorry.
Awkwardly perfect. Perfectly awkward.
I'm demonstrating my own awkwardness.

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Can Anyone Be A Coach? - With Jule Kim | Episode 347

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Can Anyone Be A Coach? - With Jule Kim | Episode 347