The #1 Reason You Blow Up in Hard Conversations - With Simon Goode | Ep 360 - The Futur with Chris Do

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
A lot of people want to feelmore confident or develop a higher
level of confidence fordealing with conflict.
But it's not always easy toknow where to start.
So in this conversation, wetalk about some of the ways that
workplace conflict andmanaging difficult conversations
relate to our inherent nervoussystem, our hard wiring as humans.
And we talk about somestrategies for keeping yourselves

(00:22):
calmed and then options forbeing assertive and holding the line
with clients, all the whilenot coming across as too aggressive
or overbearing.
So if that sounds like thekind of thing that's useful for you,
please consider giving it a listen.
I'm Simon Good, and you'relistening to the future.
My next guest piqued mycuriosity because he says, chris,

(00:45):
you do something calledpreemptive empathy.
I'm like, what is that?
He goes, I'm a specialist inconflict resolution.
Well, I love the way thatsounds because so many in our community,
including myself, strugglewith conflict.
Conflict in our personalrelationships, conflict in negotiations,
pricing, buying a car,whatever it is.
There's conflict around useverywhere and we don't know how

(01:08):
to process that.
We don't know how to respond.
We tend to wind up on thelosing end of that equation.
So let's tune in here andlet's have this conversation with
Simon.
Simon, how are you?
Hello, Chris.
I'm really well, thank you.
And thank you for having me onthe show.
Let, let's dive into it.
I know you've got an MBA andalso a degree in psychology, and
you're a specialist atfacilitating mediation and conflict

(01:30):
resolution.
That sounds like somethingthat we all should get better at.
And so I want to learn from you.
Where should we go?
When I normally deliverconflict resolution trainings in
full, these are the topicsthat I usually tend to cover.
So I normally talk aboutconflict analysis, like how we can
understand conflict, thecontextual factors and the individual
factors that drive conflict.

(01:50):
Then we look at selfregulation and staying calm.
Now for me, that's kind of theessential foundation that we need
to build because if we becomeescalated, if we become frazzled
and either angry and a littlebit enraged or afraid and a little
bit panicked and flustered,then it's going to reduce our capacity
to think clearly, likeliterally in our brain.

(02:11):
And I can explain this if it's helpful.
The fight or flight responsethat we go into and the changes that
happen.
But effectively what we'redoing is jumping to short term solutions
based on a perception of threat.
So if we can calm ourselvesdown, it increases our ability to
think clearly, which then letsus respond to a situation, for example,
as opposed to getting suckedinto a reaction.

(02:33):
So I thought that could be oneof the helpful topics to touch on
in the conversation today, ifthat would be okay with you.
And then I normally go fromthere to de escalation, like how
we can calm clients down, forexample, when they're upset.
A staff member if you'rehaving a performance management conversation
with them, and then empathetic listening.
Those to me seem to beparticular strengths that you have,

(02:54):
Chris.
And I wonder if maybe theycould be areas that we wouldn't focus
on as much today.
The other area that I thoughtwe could focus on was assertiveness
skills.
So I normally talk about deescalation and empathy.
So calming the other persondown, then exploring what's their
concern, what are they upsetabout, what are they wanting in this
situation?

(03:14):
And then we need to decide ifthis is the kind of conversation
where we need to hold onto theboundaries and hold the line, et
cetera, then we need the toolsto be assertive.
And where I've noticed thatdesign professionals often struggle
is in the self regulationspace and in the assertiveness kind
of space.
They tend to be a little bitmore conflict avoidant, I think,
than other professionals.

(03:36):
I do a lot of training in theconstruction sector, and they're
not usually conflict avoidant.
They tend to go for thejugular from the word go.
So I've got some practicaltools that might be helpful for assertiveness,
like how you can raise anissue and minimize the defensiveness
and resistance that might come up.
And then ultimately how wecan, you know, escalate the level
of assertiveness to the pointwhere we're giving them an ultimatum,

(03:59):
like if you don't pay thisinvoice, the project's going to be
put on hold, that kind of thing.
So if it's okay with you,those are the two areas that I thought
we could cover.
But I just wanted to explainthat it's within the context of understanding
the broader factors thatcontribute to conflict.
I want to share something withyou kind of as a very personal story,
trying to ground some of this concept.
Right.

(04:19):
I feel like I'm well tuned nowto deal with very stressful situations,
probably above the tolerancelevel of most people.
So I'm dealing with Fortune500 companies, I'm dealing with advertising
agencies.
I'm dealing with bigpersonalities everywhere, people
who are stars and superstars.
You kind of have to learn howto navigate that without being a
doormat.

(04:40):
And so things that I do stressmy wife out.
She literally looks at myCalendar, and she sees all the things
that scheduled, like podcast,interview, webinar, public speaking,
whatever it is that I'm doing.
And she's stressed out.
She goes, are you going to be okay?
I'm like, what's wrong?
Did something bad happen?
She goes, no, no, no.
I just looked at your calendar.
I'm like, please don't look atit, because when you start stressing

(05:00):
out, I start stressing out,and I'm okay.
So here's what we noticed recently.
I was traveling with my children.
We're overseas, so we weren't home.
And my wife elected to stay home.
She had been traveling a lotand she's fatigued.
And during this time, acouple, like, really bad things that
happened.
Number one, we got these ahundred mile per hour winds that
were going through.

(05:21):
And that was also the catalystfor these crazy fires that swept
through la.
And she was here by herself.
And so there's already a veryhigh level of stress, right?
And so when it was safe toreturn home, basically she saw debris,
trees down, things in thepool, and it looked like a cesspool
a little bit, because weeksbefore the winds came, she had turned

(05:44):
off the water filter becausethe pool was leaking water.
And in her mind, she explainedit to me, it was going to cost a
couple thousand bucks to justclear this thing out because the
last time we left the pool inthis state, it was a very expensive
thing.
So she goes, I want to fix thepool, I want to fix the leak.
I want to get this all done.
And she made a series of,like, strange decisions.

(06:06):
This goes to the fact thatwhen we're stressed out, when we're
under pressure, we're notusing the full capacity of our brain,
that we're making decisionsthat may or may not be good because
she literally hired someonewho tore the pool apart to not find
the leak.
Oh, gosh.
So now we have an unusablepool, we have debris everywhere,
and we're just diving deeperinto a money pit.

(06:28):
I think.
I think the story has a happy ending.
It's not over, so we'll justpark it there.
But I just noticed, I said,honey, remember, next time you start
to feel this anxiety and thisstress, calm yourself down so you
can use that beautiful brainof yours.
Otherwise we're gonna make bad decisions.
So I think that leads intothis whole regulating stress, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
What do you think she wasfeeling in that moment?

(06:48):
Was it fear or just overwhelmor, like, how would she describe
it, do you think?
I think she would say all the above.
I Think she was thinking aboutthe money that was being spent.
She was thinking about theproblem compounding because the longer
it waits without the filterrunning, the nastier the water gets.
And we were told at some pointblack mold will grow.
And it's much harder to getrid of black mold than it is just

(07:11):
to get standard mold.
And so it's the leaking, thewasting of the water and just the.
This problem needs to end.
It needs to be solved correctly.
Oh, it's so challenging.
And you see the same kind ofthing playing out in workplace situations
as well.
Like somebody tells their bossto F off or something like that.
Or you hang up on a client inthe middle of a conversation, or
you delay responding to anemail because you're so anxious and

(07:33):
you're not sure how to word it correctly.
And then it delays and delaysand delays and the anxiety builds
up and builds up.
So self regulation.
And you gave your wife thatadvice to figure out a way to calm
yourself down.
And does she know how to like,does she have techniques that work
for her to.
For that self regulation aspect?
I think so because she does alot of meditation.

(07:53):
She's a very spiritual person.
But I was like, it's justwater, it's just a pool.
Like this is.
Doesn't even register mystress out meter.
Because there's this line thatI heard from Blair Enns.
I'm not sure he's theoriginator of this line, but it basically
goes something like this.
If you can write a check tosolve a problem, you really don't
have a problem.

(08:14):
Interesting.
So we're very privileged to bein a place where most of our quote
unquote problems can be solvedquite easily because we just sign
a check.
And she doesn't like that.
She's like, no, you know, Idon't like the way we spend money.
I'm like, okay, well then we,we choose to hold onto the problem.
And maybe there's a goodreason she does that.
Maybe I'm too much of like aspend spending spree.
Like, oh, just hire the bestperson and get them to do this and

(08:36):
do it the best way always.
Yeah.
It's a funny thing becauseI've met people like yourself that
have this incredible capacityto stay calm even in these very high
pressure situations.
And then others, and to befrank, like myself, I'm a lot more
naturally flustered and a lotmore naturally nervous and I overthink
things and I'm constantlyrehearsing conversations and replaying
things that happens.

(08:57):
So self regulation has been areal challenge for me.
And I knew I needed to calm down.
And my bosses were telling me,you need to find a way to calm down.
But I couldn't.
And so for me, self regulation.
The key has been to understandwhat we mean by the self.
And I've drawn one of theaspects that is from Buddhism.
Buddha talked about these fiveaspects of self.

(09:18):
Buddha actually said, thisisn't just the five aspects of self.
Like, you are more than this.
But I think these five aspectsare incredibly helpful when we think
about how to regulate ournervous system.
So when your wife came homeand she saw the debris in the pool,
she would have had this reaction.
And it occurs in these fivedifferent dimensions of us, of the
self.
The feeling is often the tipof the iceberg, and that's what comes

(09:40):
up first.
But the panic and the fear orthe anger or even anger at yourself,
like, I shouldn't haveforgotten to switch the pump off
or whatever it was like.
So that feeling is there.
But the interesting thing,like, when I said, what was she feeling?
There's a lot more nuance inamongst these emotions than a lot
of us expect.
I'm angry.
Well, that's not the entirestory, is it?
Like, I'm not just angry.

(10:01):
And if I'm angry at someonethat didn't pay an invoice, that's
different to angry at my sonwhen he leaves his plate, you know,
without cleaning up afterhimself or something.
There's so many differentvariations of anger.
So for me, I tend to find itnot that helpful to just focus on
the feeling like anger.
What tends to be more helpfulfor managing it is what's called
emotional granularization,where we break that anger apart into

(10:24):
the different pieces, like,how come I'm angry?
What else am I feeling?
This kind of thing.
So you certainly have thatemotional reaction, and that comes
up very often in workplaceconflict as well.
When I'm doing mediations,that's what I'm paying attention
to first and foremost.
But your wife would have alsohad a physical reaction to that.
Her heart rate might haveslightly increased.
For example, her fists mighthave clenched.

(10:45):
She might have been shakingslightly or felt the need to pace
back and forth.
This buildup of adrenaline,this is all because of this fight
or flight mechanism that we'reeffectively hardwired for as humans.
Like, we've lived for so manythousands and thousands of years
in tribal societies.
So when there's a problem thatcomes up and when there's something
that we think there's athreat, we're used to having a Physical

(11:06):
response.
So for your wife, not beingable to think clearly, her heart
racing, and that buildup ofadrenaline and feeling, the need
to rush and jump in to takeaction, might have also contributed
to it.
So we've got the feelings,then we've got our physical body.
These are the first two partsof our self.
Then we've got our thoughts,our consciousness.
Like the story that we'retelling ourselves about the situation,

(11:28):
the assumption she was making,a black, the black mold and how much
it was going to cost, thiskind of thing.
Then we've got our perception,what we're paying attention to and
what we're focusing on.
Like when your wife came andsaw the pool, I can only imagine
that everything else driftedout of her peripheral vision.
Like she was just looking atthe pool and trying to figure out
the problems and what's caused it.

(11:48):
She wasn't remembering whatthe kids were doing or what the groceries
were sitting on the bench andthat kind of thing.
Especially when we're inconflict, when there's a high level
of perceived threat, ourperception adjusts and becomes hyper
focused on the thing that wethink we need to deal with.
So those are the first four aspects.
Our emotions, our physicalbody, our thoughts, our perception,

(12:09):
what we're paying attention to.
And then we've got our behavior.
That's that.
What do you feel like you needto do?
The urges, the whims that comeup, kind of thing.
Like, I just can't believe it.
You want to throw the phone onthe ground or do you know what I
mean?
Like these little completelyillogical inclinations that we have
when we get upset.
And all of those five aspectsgive us indications that we are becoming

(12:34):
escalated.
Like as I'm becoming moreescalated, my thinking changes, my
feeling changes, my bodychanges, my perception changes and
my behavior changes.
And these are also fiveoptions that we've got for regulating
ourselves in those kind of situations.
So I can look at my emotionsand do the emotional granularization
process that I talked about.

(12:54):
I can deal with my physicalbody, go and have a shower, have
something to eat, go for awalk, something like that.
I can deal with my thoughts.
Am I catastrophizing this problem?
Maybe I don't have all of the information.
Maybe I don't need to makethis decision right now.
Maybe I can change my behavior.
Like don't blurt out the thingthat I want to say.
Don't do the destructive taskthat I want to do.

(13:16):
Just sit still for a minuteand let that pass.
Or do a different kind of behavior.
That's going to be morehelpful, like talking to my husband
about what he thinks we shoulddo, or getting a consultant in to
give us some advice.
Or we can adjust ourperception instead of just focusing
on the thing that's causing usthis stress.
And because we're seeing it asa perceived threat, we focus on something

(13:36):
else, a mindfulness activity,going to a different task that's
productive, that kind of thing.
So for me, that's really beenthe key to figuring out how to keep
myself calm when I'm indifficult conversations, like running
a workplace mediation, for example.
And I wonder if maybe for someof the people listening, that might
also be helpful if they'vestruggled to calm down, if you know

(13:57):
what I mean, just themselvesthrough sheer, what would you say,
like, force of will orsomething like that.
So for me, this has reallybeen part of how I think about developing
emotional intelligence as partof conflict.
We really need to develop theself awareness.
And understanding those fiveaspects of self has been the key
for that for me.
And I often talk about this inthe training workshops that I run.

(14:19):
And I get very people that saythis really resonates with them that
then lets us do the selfregulation that we need to do.
Like, I don't know how to calmmyself down if I'm not sure what's
going on within me.
And then that leads to theawareness of others.
This is often what we'reaiming for when we think about difficult
conversations or conflict.

(14:39):
Like, you might want to calmyour wife down in that situation,
but of course you would needto become yourself first.
And we need to be aware ofwhat's going on in someone else's
mind if we're going to be ableto have a positive influence on them.
So that's sort of the way thatit often develops.
People might come, you know, Ihave a podcast called Conflict Skills,
and you might look at anepisode on assertiveness or something,

(15:01):
and I can talk to you about aformula like say these three things
or use this technique or thisphrase really works.
But if you're not able to keepyourself calm in the middle of the
conversation, there's reallyno point to it.
So for me, it's the selfawareness, self regulation that then
leads to the awareness ofothers, which then contributes to
us being able to have apositive influence.
And it's really justunderstanding that this is the way

(15:23):
that we're wired.
This immediate reaction thatwe have.
It's about the past, it'sabout the learnings that we've done,
the programming through all ofthe different experiences that we've
had through our earlyupbringing and school and early career.
That's about the past.
Your immediate reaction doesnot tell you who you are.
It's how you decide to respondafter the reaction that gives you

(15:45):
real insight into how muchyou've grown.
Your first reaction is your past.
Your intentional response isyour present.
It's from a book calledInsight by Young Pueblo.
And he really has anincredible way of articulating some
of these different bits andpieces, I think.
So I mentioned that part ofthe reason why, like your wife might
have responded to thatsituation, for example, is the hardwiring

(16:06):
that we have, and it's throughthis process of evolution.
If we think about like athousand years ago, Christo's great,
great, great, great, great,great, great, great, great grandfather
living in a tribe of around120 kind of people.
Like, you're out getting foodand there's tasks to be done, But
a lot of the time there's noimminent danger.
We tend to only feel stress inspecific situations.

(16:29):
It's when someone's going toattack us or, you know, we're out
looking for food and we comeacross a wild animal that's going
to eat us or something like that.
And the threats that ourancestors faced have been very real.
Like it has been someone who'sgoing to physically attack you and
they might hurt you.
So we've got this responsewhich is predominantly physical.

(16:49):
We get ready to defendourselves through fight or flight,
run away.
So in terms of the chemistryof our brain, we've got these high
doses of cortisol, which isthe stress hormone that our brain
creates.
It tends to make us feel a biton edge.
If you've got a whole lot ofthat sort of pumping through your
system and adrenaline insituations where there's danger and

(17:10):
it's like we can ramp up allof the resources to short term survival
because that makes sense froman evolutionary perspective.
The challenge is that thesedays we're not really wired for the
modern working environment.
If you're working as a designconsultant, for example, like you're
on call almost 24 7, you'reoften checking your phone.
Most people, the first thingthat they do is look, login and check

(17:31):
their emails and that kind of thing.
So we're constantly on alertto potential threats, things that
we might perceive aschallenges to our safety, so to speak.
And so what happens is thatour brain tends to associate the
ping of a notification or theunread email symbol on your desktop
or something like that with apotential threat.

(17:52):
And it triggers a little bitof this fight or flight response.
So what's going on are theselow doses of cortisol constantly
flowing through our system,which effectively, in long term,
means that our immune systemcan become compromised, for example.
But it also means that even ina given workday, if you've gone from
one meeting into the nextmeeting into the next meeting, you're

(18:13):
not walking in at a 0 out of10, like you're walking in at a 7
out of 10, for example.
So it's not going to take asmuch to push your buttons and set
you off, given that buildup of cortisol.
And that stays in our systemfor a lot longer than people realize.
It's actually up to 18 hours.
So, you know the old saying ofsleep on it, you'll feel better in
the morning or something like that.
There's a lot of, I think, alot of wisdom behind that because

(18:35):
it would allow some of thatcortisol to be released and go through
your system.
So I talked about thisperceived threat, and historically,
it's been like someone whowants to attack me or an animal that
wants to attack me.
But of course, we're not justprogrammed to respond to physical
threats.
And even with our tribalancestors, there were other things
that were potentiallyhazardous for their survival as well.

(18:59):
So we've got the physical danger.
We do find, like, we do gointo this fight or flight response
when we're in physical danger.
If you're going back to yourcar after a dinner at a restaurant
and someone's following you,you do find your heart rate starts
increasing.
You worry that you're going toget mugged and they might attack
you.
So that could be caused byexplicit threats or pain or even

(19:19):
something like someoneinvading your space and standing
very close or interrupting youor pushing you around and not having
any sense of control over asituation, or putting a mask on and
not knowing where you're being led.
It could be social risks, though.
These are also things that ourbrain interprets as perceived threats.
Things like embarrassment orbeing singled out in a group or a

(19:42):
loss of reputation or beingcriticized in front of others.
So some people, and I'm surepeople listening to this would say,
I just feel like I'm being silly.
I'm overreacting.
Why am I such a drama queen?
Do you know what I mean?
Like, why can't I just beChristo and just be cool and calm
and collected in the face of challenges?
Well, the answer is thatyou're not programmed to do that.

(20:04):
Like, we are Programmed tolive in tribes and maintain tribal
harmony.
So embarrassment and beingsingled out and even conflict, these
are things that we inherentlyare driven to avoid.
It could also be caused by discomfort.
This can also trigger thatfight or flight kind of reaction.
It might be physical exertion.
You got someone that's reallytired and you're asking them to do

(20:24):
one more thing, or you're in ameeting and you're really busting
to go to the toilet andsomeone asks another question and
for goodness sakes, are you serious?
Or it could be uncertainty,especially a lack of control or an
unexpected change.
And even for people who areable to manage the first three categories.
And I wonder if this issomething that you might even find
challenging, Chris, whenthere's a sense of lack of control

(20:47):
or you know that there's aproblem but you don't have the full
information about it, that'soften something that causes some
people to escalate too.
So when I talk about thatfight or flight response, we have
a very physical reaction, likewe're getting ready for physical
activity.
But the causes aren't justphysical, which means that we might
need to kind of become awareof what our reaction is and manage

(21:10):
it, like calm ourselves downand then choose a different kind
of response.
I have a question.
Yes.
So as our society has evolvedand progressed, the physical threats
that we once felt just ahundred years ago are less and less.
We don't walk down the streetworrying that much that somebody's

(21:31):
going to stab us or shoot uswith a bow and arrow or something
like that.
That was a very real thing before.
So my question for you is froman evolutionary point of view, have
we transferred the fear, theflight or fight thing towards more
abstract things as we move uphigher Maslow's hierarchy of needs,
we've, we've moved away fromphysical safety and then eventually

(21:52):
move towards identity and self actualization.
So the fear that people mightthink I'm stupid challenges our own
identity.
And so that's a different kindof fear now.
So if that's the case, I havea follow up question.
But what are your thoughts onthat before I ask my follow up question?
I don't know that that isnecessarily true because I think
that even back when we wereworried about bows and arrows shooting

(22:13):
us, we also needed to worriedabout being singled out within our
tribe and we also needed to beworried about someone criticizing
our hunting techniques orsomething like that.
So I don't know that all ofthose other threats that we had in
that we have these daysweren't there in the old days.
But I do think you're rightthat we don't have as much of the
physical threat.
So our brain has shifted tofocus on.

(22:35):
And it might be connected toMaslow's hierarchy or there's like,
you know, the tribe.
We used to have 120 peoplethat we could see and touch and we
knew how they were.
But these days we have this,you know, virtual tribe almost that
we're worried about lookingbad in front of.
Like, something happens onlineand we feel embarrassed about it.
Like we don't really knowthose people.

(22:55):
But it's almost like our brainis, you know, taking one of the normal
responses that's worked forus, and it's unfortunately transposing
it into a situation thatdoesn't work for us.
But that ego, like, you know,we can focus more on becoming the
kind of person that I want to be.
And then maybe the threatsthat come stop us from getting there,
and maybe that might besomething that trigger us into the

(23:17):
fight or flight.
I'm not so sure.
Okay.
I thought about that when Iwas asking the question, because
I was thinking, if you and Iand eight others were in a tribe
and we're looking for food andwe're hunting in the jungle somewhere,
there's always questionsabout, like, you lead the pack.
Are you strong enough toprotect our rear?
And there's always questionsabout fitting into the social structure

(23:39):
and things like that.
So we, we need to belong,otherwise we'll get left behind.
We need to prove we're usefulto this team, my teammates of hunters
or whatever it is.
So I understand that it justfeels like we've moved away from
basic needs now.
We're.
We're afraid of, like, whatsomebody's going to say to us on
social media.
A total stranger will never meet.
So something's happened there.

(24:01):
Maybe it's just finding adifferent way of expressing it.
And I think too, you know, thecriticism, like, we could be criticized
for being late for work orsomething like that.
But let's imagine that you'removing up the Maslow's hierarchy
and you really want tocontribute to the world and you're
writing a book or you'resetting up this amazing project or
doing something and somethinghappens that causes that to get stuck.

(24:23):
Someone gets in the way of itor won't approve it, or they're criticizing
that.
I can imagine that thereaction to that kind of thing might
be much more strong simplybecause of the importance that you're
placing on it in your own identity.
If you Know what I mean?
Yeah.
So you criticize me for being late.
I'm not going to care aboutthat as much as you say, you know,
I hate your podcast episode orsomething like that that I have put

(24:45):
a lot of effort into.
So what happens if we detachourselves from putting importance
on anything, whether it'sabout Chrome Delay or showing up
late or our podcast?
Who cares?
At the end of the day, itdoesn't really matter.
Yeah, I think actually that'san incredibly helpful technique for
self regulation.
And, yeah, it's almost like weremove the attachment from the results,

(25:10):
and in that way we can almost.
I think Michael Singer talksabout thinking about yourself as
a human.
You've just appeared on theearth and your job is just to observe
what's going on.
And I really like RobertGreene's way of talking about learning
as well, that we justexperiment, and in that way there's
no success or failure.
It's just observing theresults of the experiment.

(25:31):
And so I think that's probablywhat you're referring to there.
If we detach the, you know,the judgment, the valence that we
put on it, this is good or badthat this happened, and instead approach
it as well that happened.
And of course, that would meanthen that we have a much less emotional
reaction, I think, totragedies and problems and setbacks
and drawbacks along the way, too.

(25:53):
There's a Buddhist story Ireally like about a Buddhist farmer
and his horse ran away one day.
And all of the villagers cameup and said, I'm so sorry to hear
that your horse ran away.
I apologize.
Chris, you've probably heardthis before, but some of your listeners
may not have.
They came and said, I'm sosorry to hear your horse ran away.
And then the next day, thehorse came back and it had found
a mate.
So he had two horses.
And the villagers came andsaid, I'm so happy for you.

(26:15):
You got the two horses.
That's amazing.
And then his son was ridingthe new horse and he fell off and
broke his leg.
And the villagers said, I'm sosorry to hear about your son.
That's a terrible accident.
And every time the villagerswould come and say to him, you know,
he would just sort of respondby saying, we'll see, we'll see,
we'll see, we'll see.
Like, we don't know.
And so they said, I'm so sorryto hear about your son.

(26:35):
But then the next day, therewas a war in that country, and a
military conscriptionhappened, and his son didn't have
to go and fight in the warbecause he was injured.
So do you know what I mean?
What we see is the drawbacksand the setbacks, of course, in the
long run aren't necessarilythat there are opportunities for
learning and growth and all ofthe rest of it.
And removing ourselves fromthat attachment to the consequence.

(26:57):
I think that can be anincredibly effective strategy when
we can manage it.
Yeah, that story reminds me ofthis idea, and I hope I say it right,
that failure isn't really failure.
It's just looking at thetimeline and the wrong scale of things.
So each one of these moments,it's a failure.
It's a failure.
Good or news, good news or badnews happens.

(27:18):
But if we zoom all the wayout, we just wait long enough, we
see, like, oh, it's exactlythe way it's supposed to be.
And maybe at the end of ourlife, we come to that conclusion
that all the trials andtribulations, all the heartache and.
And all the triumphs andtrials we've been through were exactly
what was necessary for you tolive this life that you lived.

(27:38):
Take one thing away, the wholething changes again.
And do you feel like thatmakes a difference for you then,
like, in the moment, duringconversations, for example, Chris,
like, how would that affectthe way that you respond to, you
know, someone complaining toyou about something or a problem
that you're coming across inyour work?
The way I see it is I have avery strong emotional regulator that

(27:58):
I go, even so I'm not.
Say if it's from zero to ahundred, I'm at zero because that'd
be dead.
I'm not a hundred because I'dexplode with too much heat and violence.
I think I'm probably idlingaround 85.
So I run at a cool 85, and Ithink I'm okay.
I don't need to rev up or down.
So when something comes intomy life to interrupt all that, I'm

(28:19):
like, oh, okay, something'shappening here.
I don't want to get pulledinto the emotional magnet or drawn
into that hole.
So I'm just like, okay, it happened.
That broke.
That didn't break.
I got a gig.
I didn't get a gig.
It all just happens, right?
It's been.
One of the things that I'veappreciated most about your channel,
to be frank, is that I felt alot of anxiety putting myself out

(28:41):
there and publishing contentand, like.
I mean, a lot of anxiety is anincredible understatement.
I'm talking about, like, sevenYears of procrastinating and trying
and never pressing publish,you know, and so finally understanding
that.
That this is a learningprocess and you will learn by doing.
And you're.
I think you've been actually arole model, to be frank, of just

(29:02):
the ability to try and justexperiment and give it a go.
For me, I wasn't able to justdo that.
I needed to do the self regulation.
Like, I mean, literally beforeI press the publish button, I have
to take a few deep breaths,but it was enough to get me across
the line.
Isn't that interesting that wecome essentially from polar opposites
in our natural defaults, butsome of the techniques that we're

(29:24):
using seem to be similar.
There's a bit of overlap there.
Yeah.
I just find that people,especially my team or people close
to me, they get worked up overthings that don't even impact them.
For example, I make a post.
There's a typo in it.
Okay.
I'm not trying to tell you I'm a.
I'm a proofreader.
That would look embarrassingif I was a proofreader, but I'm not

(29:45):
claiming to be one.
And they're like, oh, you justdid a webinar and one person didn't
like it.
I'm like, but how many peoplelike that?
Why are we always focused onthat one negative piece of information?
And we catastrophize it, wemagnify it, and we just live in a
place and it's.
How does.
I don't even understand.
I can't even tell you, Simon,that I understand that mindset.

(30:06):
I just know that doesn't feel healthy.
It doesn't feel conducive todoing good work and to enjoying your
life.
We've got a short moment here.
I have to ask you this otherquestion, though.
If I'm in this state ofdetachment and extremely high emotional
regulation, what's thedownside to that?
Because there's got to be some.
What makes you think theremust be a downside?

(30:28):
Because there's always adownside to everything.
Well, I suppose it would bewhen your wife's upset and you're
like, oh, what's the big deal?
Just let it go.
Well, how did you know?
How did you know that wasgonna be the one?
So you're like, there's nodownside except for the time.
Yeah.
And your kids are like, what's the.
What's your problem, dad?
And you're like, I don't know.
What's the big deal?
Right.

(30:48):
Because you're just too chill, right?
Yeah.
So my wife was introduced.
Well, it might mean thatpeople could feel like you're not
taking their issues seriously.
For example, they might feellike you're not.
Like, if it's a client and youseem really chill and casual, like,
it'll be fine, no problem.
But they are in a panic.

(31:09):
They might necessarily findthat helpful for calming themselves
down.
So they might be still beworked up and blowing their top and
you're on the Groundhog Daykind of loop of the conversation,
et cetera.
So I suppose those are some ofthe potential drawbacks, is that
the other person might notthink that you care and that it might
not be the most effective wayof calming them down.

(31:29):
And actually, one of thethings that we'll talk about in assertiveness
is like the sort of twoaspects of summary, like summarizing
their perspective as well as ours.
So even though you don'tnecessarily think it's a big deal
that there was a typo, let'simagine that you wanted to talk to
your team about that.
You might convey theimpression that you understand where
they're coming from, eventhough you don't agree.

(31:51):
So it's like, I get it fromyour perspective, this is a big deal,
and it's not just on this channel.
It's actually gone out toLinkedIn and all of these other places
too.
I can see where you're coming from.
At the same time.
Let's just pause and thinkabout it.
It is just a typo.
And to be frank, it's not likeI'm a proofreading channel.
So I'm not necessarily surethis is such a big deal, but what

(32:13):
do you think?
So it's almost like I need tostart where they are from that panic
state and then say, okay, I get.
I understand that.
At the same time, this iswhere I'm coming from or this is
how I see things.
What do you think would help?
What should we do?
What's the next step we should take?
That kind of thing.
You don't want to make themistake of assuming that everybody
thinks the way that you do.
No, I know people very rarelythink the way I do.

(32:35):
So let's get into this part, though.
Let's keep it on the realm ofa client.
I can understand that.
So I'm not airing out all mydirty laundry.
We can go there, too.
I don't.
I don't mind either.
So a client's, like, freakingout because something happened.
A deadline's fast approaching.
And it doesn't feel likeyou're at the part where you're supposed
to be at in that timeline.

(32:55):
Let's just say that's what it is.
It's a very real thing.
So they call you and it'slike, hey, Chris.
Or they're like, hey, Simon.
I know we're just two days outand we're supposed to have seen all
these things.
And I'm just really concernedthat we're not going to be able to
deliver.
And this is a hard deadline,we have a hard air date.
And then you're pretty chillabout it.
And then what is happening nowand how do we.

(33:19):
How do we work on this?
Because I have a very strongphilosophy on this that I want to
get to.
But what's happening there inthe other.
Person, do you mean.
Yeah, let's just look at the dynamic.
One person's really concerned,the client.
It doesn't look like I want toget done.
And you're just pretty laissezfaire kind of chill.
What happens?
What's going on?
Yeah, there's a dissonance,isn't there?

(33:40):
Because they are experiencinga very high level of perceived threat.
For them, it's a catastrophe.
It's urgent, it's an emergency.
There is a lot at stake here.
And if your response is like,what's the big deal?
It'll be okay.
Even just.
It'll be right.
It'll be okay.
Don't worry.
Calm down, I think, is onething that usually doesn't work very
well.
When we tell people to calmdown, it's usually all it takes to

(34:02):
set them off, and they feellike it's dismissed and minimized
and that you're not taking it seriously.
And ultimately it doesn't givethem confidence in the fact that
their problem is going to be resolved.
So if our goal is todeescalate them, which it isn't always,
like, if this is a difficultclient and they've paid in full and
we're already done, it mightbe just, look, thanks for the feedback.
I'd be happy to organize thetime to do it, but right now this

(34:24):
isn't the time.
And, you know, you don't dothe de escalation stuff.
You just let them be upset.
But if it's an ongoingproject, an important client, you
probably do want to focus onde escalation.
So I think there we need to,you know, the preemptive empathy
that I sort of talked aboutthat you use really well, Chris,
here, we want to use actual empathy.
It's summarizing what they've said.

(34:45):
Let me just check.
I understand what you've told me.
So it sounds like from yourperspective, this has happened and
then this.
And you tried to let us knowthis, but despite that, this still
wasn't fixed.
And now it's created this problem.
And as you've said, we're twoweeks away from launch and it sounds
like you're not sure whetheror not it's actually going to be
right at the end of the day.
And I know for you there's alot at stake.
Like, it's not just the moneythat you've invested into the project.

(35:08):
There's so much of your blood,sweat and tears that's gone into
this.
And ultimately you're wantingto give your customers the best experience
that they can possibly have.
So I can understand whereyou're coming from.
So we really want to lean inand empathize much more thoroughly
than we would need to beempathized or you would need to be
empathized with Chris from the it.
But it's for their sake.

(35:29):
And when someone has thatsense of really being understood
and heard, it helps them tocalm down.
I want to try and pretend likeI'm in this situation and say what
I'm going to say.
And then you respond to iteither as from the psychological
point of view or just as ahuman responding to it.
Like, as if I'm saying this to you.

(35:50):
So probably here's what wouldhappen if you came to me like, we're
two days out from the deadline.
I'm really concerned.
Blah, blah, blah.
Um, let's see how I would say it.
I would probably ask you.
It sounds.
I would label it and like, itsounds like you're concerned, given
that there's two days left andyou're not seeing the progress that
you think you need to see.
Is there anything else thatwe're missing?

(36:11):
Is there something else thatyou're feeling that we can talk about?
And they would say whatever, right?
And I would say to them, itmay not look like it from your perspective,
but this is exactly wherewe're supposed to be.
I've got 44 people in theother room working on this non stop
day and night, and the 200other projects we've done just like
this.
It literally comes down tothese last few moments, and all of

(36:33):
a sudden it's going to besuper clear.
But there was a lot ofgroundwork that needed to be done.
So it's kind of like par forthe course.
I'm going to say in theCalmest voices.
I can say it because I alwaysfeel like they need to know you're
in charge.
Somebody's got to be in charge here.
And just.
Just to see, like, someonecalm, like, we're good.
Like the scene from PulpFiction comes to mind.

(36:56):
The wolf, Harvey Keitel, JohnTravolta, Sam Jackson literally blew
some of these brains out inthe back of the car.
There's blood everywhere.
I think Bonnie's coming homein a couple hours.
They're in the valley, and thewolf comes in.
It's like, here's what we'regonna do.
And then, you know, SamJackson's character is extremely
lovable.
He's like, damn, they're gonnasend the wolf.

(37:17):
You know, the wolf is here.
And they already know once yousend to the wolf, the wolf's going
to make your problems go away.
So the wolf is in his normalwolf self, and he says, do this,
don't do that.
And Travolta ain't having anyof it.
He goes, you know, how about a pleaser?
Thank you.
Goes, well, it's not me whoshot the guy's brains up.
We want a type timetable.
I don't mean to be curt, butwe need to do what we're going to

(37:39):
say.
So please, thank you.
F you.
Let's go.
So he ain't even for this.
I'm here to take care of a job.
And, you know, Sam Jackson'sstill like, wow, why are you talking
to the wolf like that, man?
Don't you know, he's here.
He's a big deal.
So I'm not saying I'm thewolf, but it's like, we've been here.
There's no reason to panic.
We can understand why you're panicked.
And my.
My thing is that's how I wouldde escalate.

(37:59):
So please give me yourprofessional take on this.
I think that was an incredibleexample, to be frank, Chris, and
there was a few elements thatyou included there.
You referred to tone of voice specifically.
And I absolutely agree.
This is something veryimportant that we should focus on.
So we should aim for a lowervolume or when we're being assertive,
probably average volume.
But we don't want to yell.
We don't want to have a raisedvoice loud enough to be heard, but

(38:22):
not raised.
Lower, steady tone and slower speed.
Those are the three aspectsthat we want to include in terms
of how we talk.
So whatever we decide to say,that's how we should speak.
And then there was two thingsthat you did, which I really liked.
One was giving certainty.
Like, you might not know this,but I've got 40 people back here
and this is normally the waythat it goes.

(38:43):
And, you know, it's on trackaccording to the last few projects
that we've done.
Whatever giving theminformation and as much as possible
about this is the next step.
This is when we're going tocome to you with the next update.
This is what's the next stage,this kind of thing.
When people know what toexpect, they find it much more easy
to manage emotionally.
So certainty is one aspectthat's very helpful.

(39:05):
Relatedness, the empathy aspect.
I understand where you'recoming from.
I can hear your concerns.
And then the other thing thatyou did was that you provided them
with autonomy.
You gave them a sense of beingin control.
You said, are there any otherthoughts that you've got or any other
feelings that you have or anyother ideas of what might work?
This kind of thing.
And that's incredibly helpful.

(39:26):
Even if there's a default wayyou would normally respond to the
problem, like, no worries.
Thanks for letting me know.
This is what we'd normally do.
Let the client feel likethey're in the driver's seat when
there's a problem.
It feels very scary.
And if someone's just tellingus this is what we're going to do,
and then I'm going to do this,and then I'm going to do this, and
it begins to feel a bit likewe're on the roller coaster and we're
going up over the scariest bitof the track and now we're about

(39:48):
to hit the scary bit.
Whereas when we have autonomy,that sense of control, we're in the
driver's seat, like, whereyou've got the steering wheel.
So maybe you'd say to theclient something like, look, thanks
for letting me know about that problem.
This is what we would normallydo to fix it.
Is that what you had in mind,or do you think something else might
work better?
Like, I'm essentially gettingthem to say, yes, that's what I'd

(40:10):
like you to do.
So I really like that aspectthat you included there too, of what
are your thoughts?
Are there any other feelingsthat you've got?
Even if they don't have any,you've given them that sense of being
in control, even during theconversation itself.
So there are a few aspectsthere that I think would be particularly
effective.
Yeah.
One more movie reference forWag the Dog with Dustin Hoffman,

(40:31):
and they're always like, oh,that's a problem.
And Dustin Hoffman being aSeasoned Hollywood producer.
It's like, that's not a problem.
When we shot Apocalypse nowand this and this and that happened,
that was a problem.
This is not a problem.
And true to his word, Hoffmantook care of everything.
People tend to catastrophize,blow things out of proportion and
he's like, no, that was achallenge, but we got through that

(40:53):
one.
But this, that's not a problem.
Yes.
Yeah.
It's always about the otherperson's perception, isn't it?
Like, yeah, even assertiveness.
Ultimately, it's in the eye ofthe beholder.
It's in the eye of the perceiver.
Like, I can think that I'mbeing very assertive, but someone
else might describe me asbeing aggressive and full on and
over the top.
Or my boss might be sittingthere listening to me have a conversation

(41:15):
and think, gosh, Simon, youneed to find a way to stand up for
yourself.
Like that client's walking allover the top of you kind of thing.
So, yeah, ultimately I thinkeach person interprets these situations
and communications andmessages differently.
All we can do is do our bestto prepare and structure and frame
and position ourselves and getthe message across as best that we

(41:37):
can and then adjust and adaptand take a flexible approach if we're
not getting the reaction thatwe were hoping for.
So I see a guy on the slack line.
What's going on here?
Well, we're talking about self regulation.
So this would be about whenyou have probably had the negative
feedback and you've decided tostill press publish anyway, but you've
got that doubt sitting in theback of your head.
How can you push past theinsecurities that are sitting there?

(42:00):
Or when you're in the middleof a difficult conversation with
the client.
Like, you have that ability tokeep calm so that you can articulate
yourself in that clear waythat you did before.
But a lot of people won't.
A lot of people feel flusteredand they feel worked up and their
heart's racing and their palmsare sweaty and their face gets a
little bit flushed.
So I thought it might behelpful to talk about just some practical

(42:20):
tools that people can use tokeep themselves calm, especially
during difficult conversations.
And you know what I'd thinkabout as conflict?
So breathing deeply tends tobe probably the go to strategy.
I think for most people it'sso useful because we can do it during
a difficult conversation andduring conflict.
It doesn't take any additionalequipment and it doesn't really need

(42:43):
any particular training either.
The general principle is thatwe want to Breathe deeply and focus
on the breath out.
The exhale is more importantthan the breath in when it comes
to slowing our heart rate andcalming ourselves down.
It's more effective if you useyour nose rather than your mouth.
And I often talk about this.
It's called piston breathingthat Andrew Huberman talks about

(43:05):
a few times on his YouTube channel.
The way that we do it is thatwe breathe in through our nose and
then we pause and then webreathe in a little bit more and
then we breathe all of the way out.
So breathe in and pause.
Keep breathing in.
Breathe all of the way out.
The first time that you dothis, the first breath that you take,

(43:27):
you might like to just reallyextend that breath out.
Just let it go, let it go, letit go.
We've often got a lot moreoxygen in our lungs than we expect.
And when we breathe all of theway out, a lot of us experience a
little bit of a tinglingsensation almost.
It creates a lot of physicalspace in our lungs.
If you imagine your lungs areblowing up like balloons and then
deflating kind of thing.

(43:48):
So there's this real sense ofbeing present when we've breathed
out all of the way.
The timeframe, if you wantedto get very technical, is six or
five and a half seconds.
So I normally count to sixbreathing in and count to six breathing
out as a general guideline tomyself just in my head.
So breathing deeply, likelet's imagine your wife came home
from the pool or you'retalking to the client and they're

(44:10):
upset about this problem withthe project that's coming to deadline.
Breathing deeply would be oneof the techniques that you can use
to keep yourself calm duringthe conversation.
And if you've got junior staffwho struggle with self regulation,
this might be one of the toolsthat you would suggest that they
try.
Just experiment with it.
The next tool that we coulduse is mindfulness.
This is.

(44:32):
I'm not necessarily talkingabout sitting cross legged in a Zen
pose on the floor, meditating.
It's simply paying attentionto your physical senses.
So what's going.
I mean, I do meditate.
I really like meditation.
But some people have a bit ofan adverse reaction to the word meditation
almost.
I don't know if that's anAustralian kind of cultural thing,
but I'm really just talkingabout paying attention to your physical

(44:53):
senses.
Like what's the temperature ofthe air in the room where you're
sitting?
Is there any breeze or is it still.
What about the sounds?
Is there any background noise?
You know, can you hear the cars?
Going past or something like that?
Are there any smells in theroom that you're sitting in?
Is there any taste in your mouth?
Can you taste the leftovercoffee or the lunch that you had
or something like that?

(45:14):
And what can you feel?
Which bits of your back aretouching your chair?
Wiggle your toes and feel thefeeling of your socks in your boots?
What's your tongue doing inyour mouth?
In any one moment, we've gotall of this sensory information coming
into our brain, and our brainneeds to decide what to focus on.
And the more escalated that weget when we're in a difficult conversation
with clients, for example, wedevelop this intense tunnel vision

(45:37):
on the thing that we perceiveas a threat.
So by engaging in thismindfulness technique of just paying
attention, like wiggling yourtoes and feel the feeling of your
socks in your boots, it shiftsour focus, connects us to the present,
and stops our mind fromspinning about the past and worrying
about the future, of whatwe're going to say next and worrying
about what might happen next.

(45:58):
So those two techniques, Ithink, for so many people, are just
incredibly helpful starting points.
If your goal is to be a littlebit more of a Christo type of character
in these difficultconversations that you're needing
to manage.
Choosing your response, justpausing, Check your thinking.
Do I really need to organizethe pool to be replaced right now?

(46:18):
And think about your behaviorand maybe just expand your options,
like get a pen and paper outand just write down a list of options
that you could take.
So we talked about the deepbreathing techniques and then mindfulness.
The third option would bechoosing your response, becoming
aware of that naturalreaction, the inclinations that you
have, and just pausing andthinking about what would be the

(46:40):
ideal way of responding here,like, even though this client's being
unreasonable, is this the kindof situation where I should demonstrate
some empathy, even though Idon't necessarily think it's as serious
as they do?
Or is this the kind ofsituation where I should be assertive
and hold the line and just befirm and say, we've talked about
this before.
That wasn't in the original scope.

(47:00):
If you'd like us to make thosechanges, we'd be happy to discuss
it, but there would be anadditional cost.
Creating space, just pausingbefore you respond, taking a break,
delaying replying.
Like, write the email that youwant to send, but don't necessarily
press send.
Summarize the situation inyour head.
Like, we've talked about thisand they've talked about this.

(47:21):
They were upset about this atthe moment.
I've gone back to them with this.
I'm not sure what they'regoing to say.
Just capturing the narrativeso that in our head we can understand
the context of this currentemail that we're looking at or the
current message that we'vejust got.
Adjusting your posture andyour movement can be incredibly helpful,
and I'm doing that myself whenI'm feeling nervous.
We want to adopt a confident posture.

(47:43):
So chin up, chest open,shoulders down and back, acting confident.
To be frank, it's a lot likeyou seem, Chris.
Like, I do want to give theimpression of someone that's calm
and composed.
So I channel my inner Chris.
Do I channel my inner king?
You know, I think aboutwatching a dramatic play and how

(48:04):
the rulers act, and they'revery noble.
They are still and composedand calm and they're sure of themselves
and all of the actions goingon around them.
There's all the clowns and allof the other people that are nervous
that they are secure.
So adopting a physical posture which.
Which seems secure will thenhelp you to begin to feel more calm

(48:25):
and confident as a result.
And as we go through thesedifficult conversations, difficult
experiences in our career, thetechnical problems that come up during
a really important andincredible podcast opportunity, we
can look at these as learning opportunities.
You mentioned something alongthese lines earlier in our conversation,
Chris.
Once we recognize that this isabout practice, this is about my

(48:49):
development that howeveruncomfortable and however difficult
this conversation is, that isliterally corresponding with the
level of learning and theincrease in my performance that I
can expect after this, if Ican find a way to hold it together
and get through it.
So in a sense, it doesn't meanthat it doesn't suck.
It feels really uncomfortableand it feels terrible in the moment.

(49:12):
But I need to remind myselfthat this is part of what I need
and it's actually going toopen the door for some of the things
that I want longer term, like,you know, the bigger goals for my
business or why I want to earnmoney to provide for my family, or
all of those kind of things.
So it somehow might help me todevelop the tolerance for dealing
with this annoying client whenI can connect it with a bigger goal,

(49:35):
something that is actuallyimportant to me, that I'm working
towards.
It's really about practice.
And all of us are probablygoing to have a different mix of
techniques that work for us.
So my advice, usually,especially for people early on in
their career, is just toexperiment and find something that
works for you.
So those are some techniquesthat work during a difficult conversation

(49:56):
or you know during aninteraction with a client.
We also need to find optionsfor resetting after conflict.
I mentioned the buildup ofcortisol, that stress hormone that
our brain creates when we gointo this fight or flight mode, and
we don't necessarily want tocarry that into the next thing that
we go into the next email thatI need to write, the next conversation

(50:17):
that I need to have.
And I actually find this isparticularly important when I'm trying
to do something creative likewriting something new or I'm a musician.
So when I'm trying to write asong or something like that, if I've
just had an argument withsomeone, I've got no chance.
So I need to think about shortterm ways of resetting my nervous
system.

(50:38):
So some options that couldwork include taking a break, having
something to eat, going for awalk, doing some deep breathing,
moving around, like going to adifferent section of the office,
going for a walk around thebuilding, shaking your limbs, just
letting out a little bit ofthat buildup of energy that's there.
Swearing, crying, yelling.

(50:59):
Some people wet a towel andthey throw it at the ground as hard
as they can and swear really loudly.
Oh for F's sake, what aneffing idiot.
Or find someone that you cantalk to a colleague and just have
a quick debrief.
Oh my goodness, you shouldhave seen what this client just did.
That was so full on.
It just helps us to clear theair, so to speak.
And then that afternoon orthat night, especially if you've

(51:20):
had a difficult experience,your energy will be affected.
So don't trust your perceptions.
You're going to be much more pessimistic.
You'll overreact when yourwife makes a negative comment or
something like that.
You're not thinking very clearly.
So give yourself some spaceand choose activities that help you
to refresh and restore that balance.
And then longer term, we needto think about recoveries, time off,

(51:42):
that kind of thing, and thinkabout what we need.
You don't want to get back towork on Monday and feel like you
haven't even had a weekendbecause you've been in online debates
with people, on forums orsomething like that, smashing Reddit
out or something, Maybe justquiet or hanging out with the people
that fill up your emotionalbucket and give you joy, or spending
time playing guitar or makinga painting or looking after yourself

(52:05):
even.
Often the things that we doover the weekend affect the capacity
that we have for dealing withconflict and dealing with stress
when it comes to Monday morning.
So I think those are,generally speaking, some different
techniques that tend to bequite helpful for resetting.
And again, I think the defaultfor a lot of people is that I'm just

(52:26):
being silly.
I'm making too much of it.
Like why?
Why can't I just go with the flow?
And unfortunately, you oftenneed to do something differently
if you want to feel different.
What's that old saying?
If you always do what you'vealways done, you'll always get what
you've already got.
And if you're a flustered messthat falls apart at the slightest
hint of conflict, then it'sprobably about doing something different

(52:48):
in self regulation.
Because I mentioned with thatclient, even the one that you were
talking about, where thedeadline's approaching and they've
got some problems, or fromtheir perspective, some problems
that they perceive.
And you've got those two pathsthat you can go down.
One is the empathy de escalation.
Let's collaborate here.
The other is assertiveness.
It's holding the line andbeing more firm.

(53:10):
Like we've talked about thisbefore, or I'm happy to talk through
these concerns, but we'd needto organize a time to do it.
I'm available at this time andthis time, which time works for you
kind of thing.
And assertiveness is a verychallenging area for a lot of people.
And it is truly one of theones that's in the eye of the perceiver.
Like, I can do my best toprepare and think that I'm being

(53:31):
assertive, but ultimately itdepends on how the other person takes
it.
Most people think aboutassertiveness as being somewhere
in between being too passiveand too aggressive.
So that's probably what we'reaiming for, being calm and confident.
It's about how you act, howyou communicate, as well as what
you communicate and what yousay and the focus.

(53:52):
For me, when I'm trying to beassertive, and it's more likely that
it comes across as being assertive.
It's when the focus is on thebehavior, what the other person's
done and the consequences.
Like why is that a problem?
And what I want to do is torequest changes in behavior in a
very clear and direct way.
So I want to maintainreasonable eye contact.

(54:13):
I don't want to be looking atmy notes or looking down at my phone
or something like that.
Not too much, you know,roughly 70%, so to speak.
But I do want to engage themand show them that I'm focused.
I want to use a posture thatseems confident, upright, like my
spine straight.
But I also want to seemsomewhat relaxed.
I don't want to seem reallytense and too over the top.

(54:35):
Like, that's when it comesacross as being too aggressive.
I want to limit movement.
Like, not too many gestures,not too much.
If I'm the kind of person thattalks with my hands, I might just
hold them and clasp them on mylap or something like that.
While I'm speaking, I want toappear undistracted.
Not looking from thing tothing, just focused on one issue
that's steady, low tone, lowervolume, slow speed, tone of voice,

(54:59):
tolerating silence.
Especially once you'vedelivered bad news, you need to give
the other person a chance toprocess it.
And you should probablyprepare for some kind of a reaction
that they're going to give you.
Especially if you're going totell them something that's going
to upset them.
Choose appropriate distancefrom them.
It's usually two arm'slengths, roughly speaking, sitting
if possible tends to be more helpful.

(55:20):
And maintaining balance,allowing them to have a say as well.
Don't do all of the talking,that kind of thing.
These softening statements canwork really well for minimizing that
defensiveness and resistancethat can come up when we're being
assertive.
So when we're delivering anassertive kind of message, the first
one is what are calledsoftening statements.
Like, you might not realize this.

(55:42):
Actually, you wouldn't beaware of this, but I've got 40 staff
back behind me and they'reworking hard on your project.
So I'm trying to say I knowthat you're not an idiot and I know
you're not a jerk.
This is new information thatyou wouldn't have.
But I do want to let you knowbecause it's important.
I know it's easy to lose trackof all of these emails.
I'm just following up on thisone that I sent through a couple
of days ago because it doesn'tlook like I've received a reply.

(56:05):
Like I'm normalizing the factthat you didn't reply to me.
It's probably because you're busy.
We could label the emotions.
I appreciate that this isprobably incredibly frustrating given
all of the effort that you'vemade to avoid the issue.
We could acknowledge thenegative impact.
I know for you, you werehoping that I don't know this project
could be delivered by the endof June and now it looks like that

(56:25):
might not be possible.
And slow down allowing thattime and space for processing.
Now, when it comes to deliverbad news, we want to do it in A way
that appears calm and confident.
But what this means is that weneed to prepare for both the issue,
like how I'm going tocommunicate the message itself, as
well as how I'm going tomanage the conversation.

(56:47):
Like when am I going to givethem a chance to speak?
How am I going to introducethe reason that we're meeting today?
When I'm delivering the badnews, I want to do it in a way that's
direct and concise.
I wanted to talk to you aboutthe project.
There's been challengesobtaining some of the materials.
This means that there's goingto be delay of at least two weeks.

(57:09):
I've contacted the supplierand they'll be able to come back
to me with an exact datesometime in the next day or two.
And as soon as I've got thatinformation, I'll let you know.
So very short and sweet.
And then after that, we wantto allow time for processing, allow
the person to take in the newsthat we've just given them and think
it through.
They might have some kind of areaction that's often about that

(57:31):
fight or flight reactionthat's coming up in them.
And where possible, we shouldallow them that sense of control.
Do you have any questions?
Is there any additionalinformation that would be helpful?
Would you like to considergoing with a different option?
That would mean that we canget something done quicker, even
though it wouldn't necessarilybe the same design that you originally
talked about.
And then once you've gonethrough all of that, we want to as

(57:53):
much as possible clarify thosenext steps.
This is where we're buildingin the certainty and letting them
know what to expect from here.
Let's say you needed to fire me.
Can you go through the firingprocess as it relates to the five
steps.
Like how would I manage thatconversation kind of thing?
Chris?
Yeah.
So it's probably after aseries of performance management

(58:14):
meetings that we've had.
So there might already be somenorms developed in terms of how these
meetings go.
Let's say there was none.
Let's say they did somethingso wrong that they need to kind of
be fired without warning.
Yeah.
So intention.
They broke some.
Some core values.

(58:34):
Something not good.
Yeah.
I mean, even if there was aprecedent that's already established,
you would still need toconsider whether or not you follow
it or not.
Right.
So you would want to set upthe room in a way that's private,
obviously, if possible, ororganize to meet in a relatively
private space.
If you don't have much controlover that.
I would want to prepare Myself.

(58:55):
So take a few deep breaths,maybe take a few laps around the
building, rehearse what I'mgoing to say, have all of my notes
in front of me ready, so thatwhen I go in, I'm going to do my
best to be calm and composed.
And it's a little bit like I'mactually a duck on the water, you
know, underneath the surface.
I'm not calm and composed.
I'm nervous and anxious.

(59:15):
But I'm wanting to give theimpression that I'm calm and composed.
So then I'd probably try tointroduce the message as early as
possible, to be frank.
Like, I've had to fire a fewdifferent people.
It's not something thatanybody finds very pleasant.
But I don't like to extend thetorture, if you know what I mean.
I prefer just to rip off theband aid.
So I think if it was me, I'dprobably say something like, look,

(59:37):
Chris, I wanted to talk to youabout your.
Well, it would depend onwhether or not we've had any conversations
about it before.
I can't imagine I'd be firing you.
You've just.
You've just happened over aphone call.
Okay.
Or cross country or something.
Well, I suppose it would besaying something like, look, Chris,
I wanted to talk to you aboutthe incident that happened last week

(59:57):
at the Christmas party.
I've met with the otherexecutive managers and we've made
the decision to let you go.
Why?
What's the big problem?
You're making too much of it?
Something like that, or if youdidn't say anything, I'll just pause
and let that sit for a moment.
And I'd say something like,this is the preemptive empathy aspect.
To you, this might seem verymuch like I'm overreacting.

(01:00:18):
After all, this was aChristmas party.
It was outside of the normaloffice hours.
We weren't even doing ourregular work roles.
At the same time, we've gotreasonably strict policies around
the kinds of behaviors thatare accepted in terms of respectful
communication.
And given the number ofcomplaints that we received from
the other staff, or given thefact that we had to call the police

(01:00:38):
or whatever the thing was thatwe had to do.
Unfortunately, there's noflexibility in this situation.
So for me, I like usingparticular phrases like there's no
flexibility, or this is notnegotiable, something like that.
I might include that in themessaging somewhere.
So I've met with the executive managers.
We've made the decision to letyou go.

(01:00:58):
In some settings, I might saywe've made the decision to end your
employment with the company.
And then I'd explain the nextsteps that would take.
So this is what will happen.
We'll organise someone from HRto give you a call and do this and
this.
You can come in and collectyour belongings, this kind of thing.
So I'd probably say this iswhat I wanted to talk to you about.
This is the decision.

(01:01:19):
Allow some, you know, time for processing.
In a real situation, they'reprobably going to have something
to say after that, eitherasking a question or complaining
and trying to get you tochange their mind.
And I might let them talk fora while.
Like I might give them a senseof control.
Oh, okay.
Like when you say that it'snot a big deal, what are you basing
that on?

(01:01:40):
So I'm getting them to explaintheir perspective.
Or when you say that youweren't the only one doing it, there
are other people involved.
What do you mean by that?
Could you give me a bit moreinformation about that?
Because that wasn't somethingthat I was aware of.
Like, I might go down thatpath of allowing them to give me
this extra information.
But if we've talked about allof this before and this is a high
conflict, narcissistic, overlydramatic kind of person, I might

(01:02:03):
instead choose an assertiveapproach of just saying, I appreciate
that there's probably a numberof factors and I'm not aware of all
of the information.
Nevertheless, this is thedecision that's been made.
So does that make sense, howit relates to the different aspects
there?
Chris?
Yeah, as you're saying, I waskind of mapping it to what I said,
what it didn't say and how itall went.

(01:02:23):
And imagining also myselfhearing this piece of information
and seeing how he handled itwas really clear.
He said, we're having thisconversation because of what the
incident that happened at xyz,without getting into the exact incident.
Right.
I met with other people.
So this is not a knee jerkresponse or something.
It's thoughtful, it's deliberate.

(01:02:45):
And then you also say,unfortunately, there's no flexibility
in this.
That ship has sailed, essentially.
So there's no room fornegotiation, bartering, all the kind
of hemming and hawing.
We don't have to get into it.
And so here's what's going tohappen next.
Don't show up to work today.
The decision is time for youto get your stuff.
I like it.
Yeah.

(01:03:06):
And if I was a caring,supportive manager and I did like
the person, even though they'ddone something that was quite wrong,
I might check in with them,you know, the next morning or something
like that, or ask them, wouldyou mind if I give you a call in
a couple of days and just seehow you're traveling?
Or would you.
Would there be any other kindof support that we could offer you,
something like that?
To be honest, I think I.

(01:03:26):
And I do.
When I fired people, I justfeel very guilty, and so I sometimes
need to also manage that.
I don't want to go too muchinto the.
What kind of support can wegive you when that's not necessarily
appropriate in every situation?
Very good.
I've never asked someone if Ican call them later.
I said, basically, when thisdust settles, I'm.

(01:03:46):
I'm not upset at you.
If you want to go meet upsomewhere, I'd be happy to.
And very rarely do they ever.
The best case scenario, Isuppose, would have been that you
would have been able tointervene with that staff member
before they got fired.
Like, talk to them at theChristmas party before they did the
action that they were about totake, or something like that.

(01:04:07):
This is what's called apositive confrontation.
Like, how can we ask someoneto stop doing something that they're
doing?
You might have a client thatcalls you after hours, or they expect
quick turnaround on somethingthat you're doing.
Or it could be any number of things.
They're not paying theirinvoices on time.
I really like this particular framework.
It was developed by apsychologist called Barbara Pachter.

(01:04:28):
It's the what ask check model.
The idea is that we talk about what.
What has the person done andwhy it's a problem.
Then we ask, this is what Iwant you to do differently.
And then the final step is a check.
Are there any issues with that?
Are there any questions?
Is there any problem?
So with the unpaid invoicething, we could say, look, I'm calling
about this invoice.

(01:04:48):
It hasn't been paid.
Would you be able to organizepayment by the end of the week?
Are there any issues with thison your end?
Just very short and sweet.
And the reason that I ended upemailing you originally or messaging
you on LinkedIn, Chris, wasbecause of a conversation that I
heard, and you were talkingabout a situation in a restaurant
and there was a problem withyour meal, and you called the waiter

(01:05:09):
over and you said somethinglike, look, I'm so sorry, I didn't
order this sauce or somethinglike that.
Would you be able to take itback to the kitchen and see if there's
something that they can do?
Is that possible?
You actually followed a Verysimilar kind of steps here.
What?
This isn't what I ordered.
There's a problem with my meal.
Now, some people just do that.
That's where they stop.

(01:05:30):
Excuse me, waiter.
This isn't what I ordered.
And of course that invites defensiveness.
Oh, I checked my notes andthat is what you asked for.
Right.
Whereas if you say, I'm sosorry, this isn't what I ordered,
could you please take it backto the kitchen and see if they can
swap it immediately?
They have a task that they can do.
We're not giving them thatsense of perceived criticism.
Instead it comes across as arequest and then the final step is,

(01:05:54):
would that be okay?
Any issues with this?
Something like this.
So you can see an example onthe screen for those of you with
the visuals, but I'll read itfor those on audio.
When you come to the officewithout an appointment, it puts me
in a difficult spot because Iwant to make sure I give you the
correct information and Idon't necessarily have the time I
need to prepare.
When you need to meet, couldyou shoot me a quick email or give

(01:06:15):
me a call?
Would that be okay?
Are there any issues with thison your end?
So it doesn't have to be abig, massive drama, But I think for
people who are conflictavoidant, this is a very helpful
framework that they can use tobe a little bit more assertive in
those kind of situations whereit's worth it.
It's deceptively simple and straightforward.
It seems very intuitive.

(01:06:35):
So as I hear this, I'm like,what do people say instead of this?
Well, they usually just do thewhat or they just do the ask.
Yeah.
This is the third time you'vebeen late and that's all they leave
it with.
That's just a complaint orthey say accusation.
Yeah.
Or can you try to be on timein the future and the person's not
aware of what they've done,like why it's caused a problem.

(01:06:57):
Whereas if you say, look, thisis the third time you've been laid,
it puts us in a tough spotbecause we're not sure whether or
not to wait for you or get started.
Can you make sure that you'reon time moving forward or flick me
a message when you're running late?
Any issues with that?
It just sends sense.
What about the criticism?
That seems a little passive.
Could you check in with uswhen you're late?
The check part kind of thing?

(01:07:17):
If you wanting to be lesspassive, I suppose you would do the
check in.
Do you have any questions?
Is that Clear.
Is there any more informationthat's needed?
Yeah, you're not wearing theright safety equipment, you're in
breach of our safetyregulations, you need to go and do
it now.
Are there any problems with that?

(01:07:39):
We do want to know if there'sa problem, like maybe there's not
the right safety equipmentthat the person needs, or maybe a
different manager in yourbusiness has told the staff member
to do something else.
Like, the idea is that we wantto put that on the table and talk
about it.
I don't want to tell someoneto do something and they say yes,
but in their head they've gotan excuse.
Like, well, Chris doesn't mindif I don't do it.

(01:07:59):
Or the other boss told me thatI have to do something else.
I'd prefer to talk it through.
And I say, any problems with that?
And then they might say, well,the other boss doesn't care, the
other boss doesn't tell me todo it.
And then I can follow that uphowever I decide, look, that's fine,
I'll follow that up with theother boss.
For now, can you just do whatI've asked and I'll let you know
if anything changes.
Let's use the same framework.

(01:08:21):
Let's say now that they'relate and it needs to be more assertive
because this is the warning toif you're late again, I gotta fire
you.
So how would you do that usingthe exact same framework of what
Ask and check.
You're talking about sort ofgradually escalating the level of
assertiveness.
There might be.
It could be anything, someoneusing their phone consistently during
meetings, or someone delayingreplying to emails and you want them

(01:08:44):
to be more responsive andthey're anxious and conflict avoidance
or something.
So there's a few differentoptions that we've got.
For people who tend to benatural accommodators and conflict
avoiders, this, if you then Iapproach tends to be quite helpful.
If you can do this, then I cando this for you.
If you can make sure thatyou're on late, then I'd be happy

(01:09:06):
to let you run one of themeetings each month or something
like that.
If you can be more consistentwith your punctuality, then I'm happy
to look at that option thatyou've put through for the training
program that you'd like toparticipate in.
So again, I'm connecting it tosomething that's important to them
and it's not necessarily youneed to change.
It's like there's give andtake here.

(01:09:27):
This is a collaborative kindof framing of it.
Now, we wouldn't always do that.
I think this one does seem alittle bit soft sometimes because
you are giving somethingthat's important to you.
So let's go to the next levelof what might be the higher up here.
We want to summarize theirperspective as well as ours.
So I might increase the senseof that there's more at stake here

(01:09:52):
by organizing a formal meetingwith them or scheduling a phone call
or something like that.
And I might say explicitly,look, I want to talk to you about
punctuality and we'vediscussed it before and you've told
me that you're going to be ontime more consistently.
But there's been a number oftimes over the past couple of weeks
where you didn't arrive to theoffice until at least 10 o' clock.
Now, I know for you, you'vegot young children and there's a

(01:10:13):
lot going on on the family front.
There's more travel involvedfrom your end, given the fact that
you live out of town andtraffic's probably quite difficult
to predict.
So what I've done there isreally summarize their perspective.
Like, I understand thatthere's factors involved that might
be contributing here.
And then I say something likeat the same time or.
And it puts the team in adifficult spot when you're late because

(01:10:38):
we are relying on crucialinformation that you're able to provide
in order to progress the conversations.
So I'd say I understand whythere's some reasons why you're late.
Again, this is why it'scausing some problems.
And then I might ask aquestion like, what do you need to
do to make sure that you're ontime more consistently?
So I tend to favor thatcoaching kind of question as a result

(01:11:00):
of at the end of that kind offraming, like, this is the situation.
I understand that you've gotall these problems at the same time.
The business can't function ifthis doesn't change.
What can you do or whatoptions do you think might help for
this to improve moving forward?
Wonderful.
I'd like to share with youwhat I've said and get you to correct

(01:11:21):
it or critique it or whatever.
Is that okay?
Yes, please.
Yeah, it's something I've hadto do, unfortunately.
So I'll say something like this.
It's been brought to myattention that in the last couple
of weeks you've consistentlyshowed up late.
And I'm not talking about twoor three minutes late.
I'm talking 10 to 15 minutes late.
And it puts everyone else in aposition where they start to wonder,

(01:11:43):
is it okay to come and gowhenever we want?
And that's not the case.
So my question to you is this.
Do you think you can show upon time as the way everyone else
does it?
Then they'll say yes.
So we're in agreement then.
Because if you cannot make itto work on time, you need to let
me know in advance.
But if you consistently dothis, meaning don't show up on time,

(01:12:05):
I will have no other choicebut than to let you go.
Are we clear?
All right, please critique and review.
It's great.
I'll just do it in the reverse order.
Okay, tell me, tell me.
This is so interesting, Chris.
Like, you're literally talkingabout the next slide that I was going
to discuss, which is the ultimatum.
Like, this is the point wherethis can't continue anymore.

(01:12:26):
We're not going to continue tohave these conversations.
This is your last chance kindof thing.
Like, if you don't pay thisinvoice, the project is going to
be put on hold.
Now, most people do it in theway that you did.
Like, you used much moreskillful language and your phrasing,
et cetera, was very good.
Your tone of voice was justspot on.
Or what would you say?
What's the American version ofspot on?

(01:12:47):
On point.
Your tone of voice.
Spot on.
On point.
But I think it's better to doit in the reverse order.
So with My son, who's 8 yearsold, I often get in fights about
technology at the moment,iPads and Nintendo switches and that
kind of thing.
And if I said to him somethinglike, look, mate, if you don't put
your plate on the sink, I'mgoing to turn off the iPad.

(01:13:10):
Like, it just comes across asa threat.
If you're not late again,you've just confirmed that you're
able to be on time.
If you're late again, then I'mgoing to end your employment.
Or I'll need to consider aperformance management process or
whatever the threat is thatyou're wanting to make right.
It is.
It's a threat.
But what we want to do is toput the focus on the positive behavior,

(01:13:32):
the thing that we want them to do.
So I would do it in the sameway you did, Chris, but I would flip
the positive and the negativeconsequences with my son.
I say, if you don't put yourplate on the sink, I'm going to have
to turn off the iPad.
Or if you can pause your showand put your plate on the sink, I'll
give you an extra five minutes.

(01:13:52):
So I'm making it a choice.
I'm saying to them, if you'relate again, it's effectively going
to mean that we can't continueusing you as part of the team at
blind or, you know, whateverthe, whatever the arrangement is
that you're engaging themwith, or if you can make sure that
you're more consistent showingup on time, and I'll be paying attention
to it over the next few weeks,then you won't need to worry about

(01:14:13):
any of those issues happening.
So I'd probably still do thethreat in exactly as firm a way as
you did.
But I would end with or if youcan make sure that you're on time
consistently, this is thebetter outcome for you.
Yeah.
So if you can make it on time,then we'd be happy to keep you on
the team.
It might even just be youwon't risk losing your job.

(01:14:37):
Okay.
Like what was the thing thatyou threatened them with?
Was it that you would firethem or that you would reduce their
hours?
I just hope that you would.
Yeah.
Let them go.
So then that would be.
Or if you can make sure thatyou're on time consistently, then
we're happy to continueworking with you.
And to be frank, that'ssomething that we're all hoping for.
Yeah, I like that.
Okay, good twist.
Still assertive, very clear.

(01:14:58):
And making it a choice.
And you've kind of done it bysaying, can you be on time?
Like you're asking for thatcommitment for them, so to speak.
I would have just done that atthe end rather than before the threat
kind of thing.
Okay.
But this is a style thing.
Like, we've all got adifferent approach and this certainly
isn't something that's amistake or it's wrong.
In fact, the people thatyou're dealing with on your team

(01:15:20):
might respond to your stylemuch better than they would respond
to mine or someone else's.
So it's probably about experimenting.
But for me, when I've been inpositions to give ultimatums, like
with my 8 year old son or evenwith my wife when she's doing something
that's really bugging me, likewatching TV when I'm trying to sleep
or something.
Look, if you keep watching tv,I'm just gonna have to go and sleep

(01:15:40):
in the other bed.
If you can turn it off, thenI'm happy to stay.
But come on, I really need toget some sleep here.
I feel like this is somethingyou might have said before.
Well, the final thing Ithought it would be helpful, maybe
just to touch on very briefly,Chris, was a little bit of information
about self care.
We've talked about some of thechallenges of self regulation and

(01:16:02):
keeping yourself calm andbeing assertive and holding the line.
But the final aspect, Isuppose is how do we look after ourselves
longer term.
I talked about those aspectsof self earlier in the conversation.
And when we think about how dowe care for ourself, it's probably
also those five differentelements that we could consider.
And depending on the type ofwork that we've been doing and the

(01:16:23):
challenges that we've beenfacing, it might be different buckets
of energy that are drained.
Like if we've been doing a lotof thinking power, then we might
really enjoy hanging out withour friends and doing some emotional
fun time.
But if we've been doing a lotof emotional labor, like childcare,
for example, or dealing with aworkplace mediation.
I often don't want to hang outwith my friends after work.

(01:16:43):
I just need quiet time to gohome and, and do a little bit of
rest.
But for me it's thinking aboutwhat do you need?
There'll be some days and someweekends when you just need rest,
like physically to restoreyour energy.
Sometimes it's more like youneed a reset.
You're frazzled and you'reruminating and you can't stop thinking
about this, the fact that youhad to fire one of your staff last

(01:17:04):
week or something like that.
So for you, it's changing yourmind, taking your mind off that thing
that's causing you stress thatwould be helpful in other situations.
It's finding options forrecharging or even realigning with
our passions and what we'reaiming for and what motivates us
at a more deep level.
So there'll be differentelements that work for all of us
differently.

(01:17:24):
Exercise, obviously isincredibly helpful.
It releases endorphins, whichis endogenous morphine.
So morphine that our bodycreates itself.
What a better option can youthink of after a difficult conflict
at work than a littleinjection of morphine, A little bit
of calm to flow through your system.
And the type of exercise thatI often recommend is high interval

(01:17:46):
intensive training.
When we do that type ofexercise, we elevate our heart rate
and then practice calmingourselves down again.
So we might sprint for 30seconds and then walk for 30 seconds
and sprint for 30 seconds andwalk for 30 seconds.
We're raising our nervous system.
And that matches quite closelythat fight or flight response that
we go into when we're in conflict.

(01:18:07):
So we're training our body tobe better able to regulate that escalation
and bring ourselves back downto balance and homeostasis.
Debriefing can be incrediblyhelpful if you've got someone that
you can talk to.
Especially if there'ssomething that's sitting there in
the back of your mind thatyou're worried about and you're not
sure whether you've done theright thing or you should do something

(01:18:28):
and you're not sure.
Deep breathing, spending timedoing positive visualization, like
remembering the positiveexperiences that you've had in the
past, like the last holidaythat you had with your family or
something like that.
And reliving some of thosegood times, looking back through
your memories on your phoneand that kind of thing, trying meditation,

(01:18:49):
just sitting still for 10 minutes.
It really does make asignificant difference in terms of
the way that your brain functions.
Slows us down and createsspace and helps us to become more
aware of those reactions thatare coming up as part of this perception
of threat that's going on for us.
247 physical relaxation,getting a massage, having a bath,

(01:19:10):
something like that, thatcalms you down and makes you feel
good physically.
Create, I'm sure wouldresonate with your audience.
Like when I'm stressed, Idon't feel like picking up my guitar
and playing a song.
But if I can just whiteknuckle it through and do it, gosh,
it feels good to finally getthat release.
And it's funny, it does almostfeel like I just.
It expresses out of me somehow.

(01:19:30):
And I think if you're a writerand graphic artist or something,
you might also experiencesomething very similar.
And then thinking about thepeople that do fill up your bucket,
that restore you after you'refeeling drained.
It might not be every friendthat you've got, depending on the
situation that you're in.
It might not be every familymember that's a good listener and
is a good support.
So choosing strategicallywho's going to be there for you to

(01:19:54):
fill the bucket back up whenyou're feeling like you're a little
bit drained.
That often is the key, Ithink, to being more resilient and
better able to deal with theconflict when you arrive back to
work on Monday.
So we don't necessarilyconnect the two.
But for me, when I see peoplewho are not very good at dealing
with conflict at work, likethey're very reactive and frazzled,

(01:20:14):
they often don't do veryhealthy self care habits and self
care routines as well, so ifyou always do what you've always
done, you'll always get whatyou've already got.
So maybe for some of thepeople listening to the conversation,
this could be an opportunityto experiment with a different self
care strategy and see whatworks for them.
So I don't necessarily have aview of like this is the right and

(01:20:35):
wrong way to do it.
It really is just aboutfinding something that fits for each
person.
It's a personal thing andultimately we're all wired slightly
differently.
We're going to have differentthings that we perceive as threats
and different things that workfor us for calming ourselves down
and restoring energy at theend of the day as well.
Yeah, so those were the mainareas that I thought might be helpful
to cover.
Chris.
But how does that all sit with you?

(01:20:56):
I thought that was wonderful.
Simon, I've enjoyed it.
I love hearing yourperspective on how to self regulate
and how to de escalate andthen also how to be assertive without
being an a hole because that'swhat a lot of people worry about.
So they wind up defaulting tothe opposite, which is they get trampled
on all the time.
And I'm sure our audience isgoing to get kick out of this.

(01:21:19):
And if they want to go deeperwith you, where should we send them?
Well, my podcast is calledConflict Skills and I've got episodes
on most of the differenttopics that we've covered today as
well as a whole bunch of otherinformation too.
So that would be a good placeto start.
My YouTube channel is imongoodand my website is just simongood.com

(01:21:39):
and that surname is G double OD E Goody.
So Simon Goody, but it'spronounced Good S I M O N G-W-O-D-E.com
and.
If you're listening to this onthe podcast, we'll make sure to include
that in the show notes.
So check those out.
I know very rarely do you everdo that, but do do that if you're
watching this on YouTube.
We'll put the notes and thelinks in the description below.

(01:22:02):
So go check out the description.
Simon, it's been a real pleasure.
Thanks for coming on the showand sharing with us some of your
wisdom and your expertisearound mediation and conflict resolution.
Thank you so much for having me.
Chris, Sam.

All Episodes

The #1 Reason You Blow Up in Hard Conversations - With Simon Goode | Ep 360

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

United States of Kennedy

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The #1 Reason You Blow Up in Hard Conversations - With Simon Goode | Ep 360