August 29, 2024 • 34 mins
In this episode of The Get, host Erica Seidel explores the crucial role of decision-making in CMO recruiting. Erica shares common traps in decision-making, such as over-trusting someone else's due diligence, over-estimating an appetite for transformation, falling in love with someone's former company without looking at their specific contribution to it, and falling prey to confirmation bias, to name a few. She shares tips for making strong, informed hiring and career decisions.
The episode includes a deep dive with guest Melissa Sargeant, a seasoned CMO, on her experiences and strategies for doing due diligence and reducing risk when hiring and getting hired. This episode is loaded with practical advice for both hiring managers and candidates looking to make better career decisions.
00:00 The Three Pillars of a Successful Career
00:20 Welcome to The Get!
00:44 Understanding Decision-Making in Recruiting
01:48 Common Flaws in Decision-Making
04:44 Introducing Melissa Sargeant: Insights from a Seasoned CMO
05:20 Melissa Sargeant on Reducing Risk in the Recruiting Process
07:11 Maybe the company used to have product market fit, but now it doesn't
9:16 Doing mutual due diligence
12:14 The 2 key questions to ask in an interview to suss out organizational dynamics
19:15 'Your gut is your truth' and other ways to suss out red flags
25:06 Building Trust and Transparency as a New CMO… and avoiding making decisions for 30 days
25:30 'CMO roles are really revenue rescue missions'
33:29 Final Thoughts and Key Takeaways
The Get is here to drive smart decisions around recruiting and leadership in B2B SaaS marketing. We explore the trends, tribulations, and triumphs of today’s top marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
This season’s theme is The Race to Reduce Risk in CMO Recruiting.
The Get’s host is Erica Seidel, who runs The Connective Good, an executive search practice with a hyper-focus on recruiting CMOs and VPs of Marketing, especially in B2B SaaS.
If you are looking to hire a CMO or VP of Marketing of the ‘make money’ variety - rather than the ‘make it pretty’ variety, contact Erica at erica@theconnectivegood.com. You can also follow Erica on LinkedIn or sign up for her newsletter at TheConnectiveGood.com.
The Get is produced by the team at Simpler Media Productions.
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
A successful career, in my view,comes from three things: talent,
(00:04):
good luck, and good decision-making.
Let's assume you're talented, andlet's assume luck is out of your hands.
The lever that you're leftwith is your decision-making.
How can you make the strongestdecisions possible, whether you're
recruiting or looking to get recruited?
Hello, and welcome to The Get.
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
I spend my days recruiting CMOsand VPs of Marketing in B2B SaaS.
(00:28):
My tagline is I place themake-money marketing leaders,
not the make-it-pretty ones.
With my role, I have a front-row seat tothe trends, tribulations, and triumphs of
today's top marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
And now with The Get you do, too.
The Get is designed to drive smartdecisions around recruiting and
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
(00:50):
This season, we focus onthe race to reduce risk.
When it comes to a match betweena company and a CMO, how can you
find out what you need to find outbefore saying yes so that you make
a match that sticks and flourishes?
Today, you'll hear from me onflaws in decision-making to
avoid in the recruiting process.
Then, you'll hear more perspectivesfrom my guest, Melissa Sargeant,
(01:12):
who has been a CMO multiple times.
The first part of making agood decision is realizing that
there's a decision to be made.
Sometimes it doesn't feel likeit, but with many things around
careers and hiring we do most oftenhave more choice than we think.
The second part is having a goodprocess for decision-making.
As we have seen with other episodes,it's important to have some framework,
(01:34):
some key things that you examineintentionally before saying yes.
And the third part is avoiding gettingtripped up with your decision-making.
In my executive search role, I haveseen people fall into a bunch of
different decision-making traps.
Let's review some of these, andas I go through these, consider
which ones you have fallen prey to.
The first is trusting someone else'sdue diligence without doing your own.
(01:57):
Like when you're hiring a marketingleader, and you trust a reference
from someone you know who has workedwith the person before so much so
that you skip your own due diligence.
It can also happen when you'rea CMO candidate and you already
know the CEO or CFO or CRO.
You think, "That person is there.
They did their research andthey're smart and we click.
So it is likely a great fit for me."
(02:19):
You scrutinize the match lessthan you would otherwise.
A second flaw in decision-makingis thinking that the company
has a greater appetite fortransformation than it actually does.
Every CMO needs to navigate what I callthe Peacemaker/Changemaker Paradox.
They have to thread that needlebetween making change and doing so in
a way that brings the company along.
(02:41):
Sometimes, the company is just not readyfor the change that someone can bring.
Another flaw - underestimating theamount of stretch in the role, thinking
that the new marketing leader will beas coachable as they need to be or that
the CEO has the capacity or abilityto upskill the new head of marketing.
The next flaw is representativebias, thinking that this
(03:01):
situation is so much like another.
Oh, it's the same size company,the same investors, so the same
playbook I used then will work now.
Or the same person who did this inanother company will succeed here.
These factors can be good indicators, butthey don't necessarily predict success.
Another flaw is commitment bias.
I put so much into this,so I should continue.
(03:23):
It's like continuing to waitfor a bus that isn't coming.
Staying in a role for too longonce it is clear it is just not
a fit, is an example of this.
Or, investing a lot of timeinto a recruiting process and
wanting it to just be over.
So you say yes even whenthere are big reservations.
The next flaw is confirmationbias, looking for information to
(03:43):
support our initial impression.
For example, you have greatinterviews with someone.
You feel a good vibe, but you haven'treally seen the person in action, and
you haven't tapped into things likebehavioral assessments to vet the match.
Another flaw - falling in love with theproduct instead of the product market fit.
Or thinking that because you know theICP or you are the ICP, it'll be easy.
(04:07):
The last flaw that comes tomind is falling in love with the
company that someone worked at.
Like, yay, I'm going to get to work withthe person who led marketing at company
X, Y, Z, rather than focusing on how theyapproach their role and their work style.
Remember, sometimes a company issuccessful because of somebody's
contribution in marketing,and sometimes it is successful
(04:27):
despite their contribution.
If you are just as fascinated bydecision science as me, there are
lots of great resources on it.
There's a fabulous book I recommendto many clients and candidates.
It's called Decisiveby Chip and Dan Heath.
Check it out if you are facinga big career or life decision.
Now, let's bring on myguest, Melissa Sargeant.
(04:47):
Melissa has been CMO four times, mostrecently at AlphaSense and previously
at Litmus, SugarCRM, and ChannelAdvisor.
Before that, she was in seniormarketing roles at Avalara and CA.
She has driven great scale-upjourneys in her career, and I'm
really impressed by her sheer rangeas a leader and as a marketer.
(05:07):
She knows a lot about decision-making inrecruiting, both hiring and getting hired.
So Melissa, welcome to The Get.
I'm glad to have you here.
Thank you so very much.
I'm really excited to be here.
Thanks for the invitation.
So you have been a CMO four times now,and I'm wondering if you can look back
to your, your previous self, you know,before you started your CMO journey.
(05:30):
What do you know now that you didn'tknow before your first CMO gig?
As it relates to reducing riskin the recruiting process,
which is our theme here.
I think the main thing that I didn'tunderstand was that I needed to map out in
that first role as I was interviewing forit, the things that were important to me.
(05:52):
So, for example, for some people, asa CMO, it might be really important to
report into the CEO so that you can havea strategic seat at that table and really
be there as part of the executive team.
It might also be important, very importantto really understand things like product
(06:16):
market fit because we get that, youknow, the most glowy, best pictures of
what's going on from the product sideof the house as we're interviewing.
And I wish I had, I still would've madethe same decision I made, but now I
know that there's this list of theseimmutable things that I will not negotiate
(06:40):
upon that are critical to my successin the role, critical to the success
of the team, and being able to recruitpeople to that organization once I get
there and that I have to stick to thatand not let someone kind of talk me
out of some things that are important.
(07:03):
Really, because it's ultimately gonnadrive the success in that role and
the outcomes you're able to drive.
That's fascinating.
So have you ever had somebody try to talkyou out of something where your gut was
saying, "Oh no, I'm gonna stick with me."
And then, you know, you're kindof like trying to see the logic
of what they were saying, but alsoyour gut was saying something else?
(07:27):
Yes, and specifically as itrelates to product market fit.
It was an organization that had grownreally quickly, had product market
fit, and then as it happens in themarket, things are always changing.
The only constant we can manage is change,and product market fit started to slip.
(07:50):
And so it was very clear tome that that was happening.
And so when I brought it up during theinterview process, they tried to convince
me, no, it's really just a pipeline issue.
And I said, I agree that you have apipeline issue, but the pipeline issue
is related to product market fit.
(08:12):
And I can come in and help you workthrough the product market fit issues,
but we all have to be intellectuallyhonest together that that's the core
issue here, and we can work through that.
And then, over time, that's gonnahelp us from a pipeline perspective.
But if we don't have a sharedunderstanding of what the real
(08:36):
issue is, in six months, they'renot gonna be happy with me.
In six months, I'm notgonna be happy with them.
And, and no one reallymoves the needle forward.
Yeah, it's a great point because productmarket fit, sometimes companies are
like, you either have it or you don't.
But it seems like you have itmostly but never perfectly.
(08:56):
And then it changes, and you know,like maybe you had it a few months
ago but things have changed.
And now you need to find a new, just anew place to sit with product market fit.
Yeah, it, it's definitelynot one and done.
It's, you know, it's something that'scontinually evolving and you have
to really keep that top of mind.
Yeah, yeah.
(09:16):
So can you double click here on,maybe share a couple of things,
one or two things that you havedone before saying yes to a job?
Something you have asked in particular,or information you found out that
others could learn from as theyare looking to mitigate their risk?
Definitely.
One thing is as we go through theseprocesses, and it may sound familiar to
(09:39):
people, you go into these interviews,whether it's the first one or you're,
you know, in your fifth or sixth round,and they'll map out the plan for you.
Say, here's the agenda.
I'm gonna talk about some things that theinterviewer's gonna share some things.
Then, they're gonna ask some questions,and I'm gonna leave you, candidate,
(09:59):
five to ten minutes at the end of thisto answer any questions that you have.
And I think that that's commonat the beginning of the process
because you're trying to figure outsynergies, does this make sense?
But as a candidate, you need much, muchmore time to be able to figure out if
(10:21):
this is the right opportunity for you.
And so what I have done when I find myselfin those situations, and if I'm continuing
to advance through the process, is I willput together my list of questions, and
whenever that next interview is coming up,particularly if it's gonna be my manager,
(10:43):
the CEO, I will write out the questions.
I will send it forty-eight hours inadvance of the interview and say, I know
you probably have some agenda items thatyou wanna talk through with me, but here
are a list of questions to help guideour discussion and things that I'm really
interested in going further in with you.
(11:06):
And if we're not able to get to itin this next discussion, I would like
to make a request that we schedulea follow-up discussion so we can
both get through these questions.
My view is that a good manager,a good hiring manager, should be
excited that the person has beenthoughtful about this and wants to
(11:28):
go through this process with them.
I really like that.
I actually had a client once who, herapproach for interviewing, she was a
CMO who was hiring people on her team,and her approach to interviewing was,
the first conversation was all about heranswering questions that the candidate
had, and the second conversation washer actually interviewing the person.
(11:51):
Because she felt like once they weresmarter about the business, they
would be smarter about the interview.
It was a bigger investment on hertime, you know, on her part, but these
were vetted candidates beforehand.
I'm wondering, can you sharemaybe a question or two that a CEO
has reacted really strongly to?
That you've done in your forty-eighthours before or during the interview?
(12:14):
So the areas I really like to digdeep into are the dynamics around how
that executive team works together.
I will usually start at a higherlevel and ask about how does
strategy get developed here?
And often people will say something like,we do OKRs, or we do the V2MOM framework.
(12:38):
Great.
I love frameworks.
How do you get there?
What happens before that comes on paper?
Oh, we go on an offsite.
Fantastic.
What does that offsite look like?
Do you, Ms.
CEO, come to that meeting withdocumentation that you've put
together in terms of your goals andhere's how you see the strategy?
(13:02):
Do you have each of your executiveteam members come prepared with, you
know, a presentation or a talk trackon what they see the strategy is?
How does that happen?
It's very telling about the dynamics ofthat organization because what I've seen
(13:24):
is some very top-down structures wherethe CEO, or maybe it's a founder CEO,
is, you know, very common, certainly inmy space, has a, is the visionary in the
company and they're the ones, they'rethe person that's looking around corners.
So they have a very clear view of whatthey think that strategy should be.
(13:46):
Or perhaps it's a more mature organizationand all the key stakeholders, all the
key executives come with what they think.
They've done their research and they'vegotten their feedback from customers
and they come to the table with that.
How that process happens and thediscussions that happen around it
(14:07):
is incredible insight on how thatteam works together on a daily
basis and what you can expect tosee in your executive team meetings.
Because in those meetings, my viewis that everyone should be talking.
And some organizations, if you see or ifyou hear, it seems like there's one person
(14:30):
who talks the most and others are justlistening and maybe asking a question.
That's something you want to understand abit more about because if everybody really
has a strategic seat at that table, howthat process happens is really critical.
(14:51):
The part two of that that I willask them is, how do you disagree?
You get lots of differentresponses to that.
In a healthy working environment,there is a level of disagreement that's
necessary to move the company forward.
It can be done in a respectful andprofessional way, but it should be a red
(15:16):
flag for candidates if they see thoseinteractions, and if you feel like you
get into these spirited discussions andthen you go away from that meeting, and
if you have to spend the next two weeksrepairing your relationship with your
colleagues, it's probably not a healthyorganization that celebrates and wants
(15:39):
those diverse voices at the table.
So for me, I really wannaunderstand how do we work together?
And that can be a challengingquestion for them to answer because
there's so many facets to that.
One of the examples I typically bringup is say, okay, how do you disagree?
(15:59):
Like what happens when you'reon very different sides.
Do you go through this debating processand as the CEO you're listening to
this and then you make the decisionand you have a contract and how
you're gonna interact with each otherand it's, we disagree and commit?
(16:20):
What does that look likefor your organization?
If they haven't thought thatthrough, that's something that, you
know, you need to be aware of as acandidate going into that situation.
If they have a real, like, yes, weabsolutely disagree and commit and
that's how we're gonna interactwith each other on a regular basis.
(16:42):
So fascinating.
Follow up question, are you looking forthe kind of structure of decision-making
and, and fighting to be set before youwalk in and then you kind of inherit that?
Or are you looking for a situationwhere you, as a CMO, are going to
influence that if it's not totally bait?
(17:04):
You know, 'cause those are twodifferent ways of reacting.
You know, the inheriting itversus kind of promulgating it.
It's a little bit of both in thatI want to understand how they
operate today so I can think throughhow I'm gonna best engage with
them as a group and individually.
(17:26):
If the company's just not at that place,and I work at a lot of, have worked
at a lot of earlier stage companiesor high-growth companies where you're
growing so fast you don't always havetime to figure out all this management
stuff that underpins the business.
I wanna be able to have a voice andhave a discussion around these things.
(17:50):
And there's lots of training andbooks and things that we can do as
leaders to get better at it because,ultimately, that's a key part of our job.
The rest of the organization trustsus to get this strategy right.
They trust us to work together asproductive partners so that they
(18:13):
can take that cue from us andgo and do the execution elements
that ladder up to that strategy.
Right.
Right.
Makes sense.
I love those questions.
It's so, because I feel like with thosetwo questions about how is strategy
set and how do you disagree, you couldjust ask those two and that could
be like two hours of conversationright there and a ton of learning.
(18:36):
So, that's great.
Let's talk about flaws in decision-making.
I'd love for you to share yourperspective, both on the side
of having gotten recruited andhaving recruited teams before.
Can you talk about maybe some, youknow, top flaws in decision-making
that you've seen or that you thinkpeople should be most wary of?
And maybe it's something that you've, youknow, kind of done battle with yourself.
(18:59):
Curious to hear your take there.
I will start from the latter partof that because I've made several
mistakes in this process over the years.
I think it's, it's trusting your gut.
Your gut is your truth.
And one of the words I thinkthat is overused a bit today,
(19:21):
but I'll say it, red flags.
When you see something and you'relike, that just doesn't quite feel
right, or I don't understand that.
For me, I know that because I'm atech geek, I will tend to overlook
these, you know, red flags.
(19:42):
And I've had certain situationswhere they weren't red flags.
I would say it was like thisbeacon of light with sparkles
and fireworks saying, "Melissa!
Danger, Melissa!
Danger, Melissa!"
And I will have overlooked itbecause I would be enamored with
(20:02):
some other part of the organization,or I really liked the team and, you
know, I would second guess myself.
I'm, I'm being too critical here.
Now, I'm incredibly intentionalabout that, that if I see a red
flag, and I know it's a red flagbecause I feel it in my gut.
Something doesn't feel right.
(20:23):
And that's where your truth is.
And I think that's true for both ifyou're interviewing candidates and
something comes up and it doesn't quitefeel right around that, or if you are the
person that's interviewing for the role.
And the way I manage that, personally,is I will remind myself, and sometimes
(20:45):
I even put a sticky note on mydisplay that says, "Stay curious."
And for me that meanskeep asking questions.
Get a little more curiosity.
Get more clarity.
See if there's something thatyou're misunderstanding there or
there's some information that youdon't have around that red flag.
(21:09):
But if you can't get it and you stillhave that feeling, you have to honor it.
And that can be really, really hard.
If it's, you know, a companythat you're super excited about.
We're in a time now where it'sreally competitive for roles
and you're excited about that.
(21:30):
But every time, whether it was a rolethat I chose or a candidate that I
was hiring, and that red flag, thattwinge I get in my stomach was ignored,
I paid for it every single time.
Yeah.
(21:50):
Yeah.
You know, I have a coach who toldme once something really smart.
She said, "Your gutdoesn't speak English."
So I love how you're talking aboutkind of interrogating your gut, right?
It's like the gut has to have the spaceto say its truth, and you have to realize
that it's talking, and then you haveto realize it's not talking in English,
(22:12):
or whatever language you, you speak.
And then it's, oh, let me try totranslate for it and with it and
interrogate it to, uh, to figureout what it's trying to tell me.
That just stuck with me so, so much.
And I like what you're saying.
It's almost like when you get married,you know, it's like, oh, there's this
little thing, but are you okay withthat little thing becoming like a really
(22:35):
big thing, potentially, over time?
[Chuckling] Exactly.
Because - right - because what'sa small little, you know, gut
question mark initially becomesa bigger question mark over time.
Yeah.
Well said.
So it sounds like for you, youknow, the flaw in decision-making
is just not trusting the gut and,and not following the feelings.
Are there any others that you'veseen, in particular, you know, show
(22:58):
up when hiring or getting hired?
So a lot of times we'll get candidateswhom have been recommended to us by
people with whom we've worked in thepast, or maybe they're at the company.
And that's always great because,you know, in general, I think great
people tend to attract great people.
(23:20):
We still have to go through the sameprocess with them and not necessarily
give them an advantage in that scenario.
Because if they were great in someother organization with that person
- every organization is different.
Every culture is gonna be different.
(23:40):
How organizations make decisions, howpeople engage with each other, the culture
on that team could be quite different.
It doesn't necessarily translateinto success in that next role.
It's great to get that feedback andit's a place for you to ask lots
of questions and learn more, butI intentionally, now, again, it's
(24:06):
a mistake I've made in the past.
I don't start when I'm looking at aslate of candidates automatically adding
points to that person because, oh, theyknow this person and I love that person.
I would work with them a hundred times,and if they say they're perfect for
this, then you know, I trust them.
(24:27):
They might, I'm surethat person is fantastic.
It just doesn't mean that that'sautomatically gonna translate into
the role that you're recruiting for.
Or for you as a candidate thatyou're going into that the same
thing is gonna be true for you.
Yeah, yeah.
Well said.
Thank you for sharing.
I'd love to also get your take, forpeople who are new in a CMO role, they
(24:52):
often come into an organization that'skind of skeptical about marketing.
So do you have any tips for once somebodyhas gotten the job, and assuming it's the
right job, how do they turn the companyfrom being skeptical about marketing
to being supportive about marketing?
Trust is built through transparency.
And a lot of CMOs come intoorganizations - I joke that,
(25:15):
why do they always hire us last?
I feel like in every role it's like, "Wegot everything else in order, Melissa.
Now, can you just come and like,you know, you've got that magic dust
that you carry around with you andsprinkle it over here and in 90 days,
you know, everything will be better."
Sometimes CMO roles are reallyrevenue rescue missions for companies.
(25:40):
And so the way to set expectationsaround that is to be super transparent.
And we talk a lot about 30-60-90.
When I come into an organization, there'sa couple of things I do regardless.
First, I tell everybody, includingmy boss, don't ask me to make a
decision in the first thirty days.
(26:01):
The answer is no.
I'm not making any decisions.
I don't care how on fireyou believe this to be.
It's been on fire for a while.
It can burn a little bit longer.
And then that thirty days is alistening tour on steroids, you know,
from every single person on my team.
(26:24):
I do a start, stop, continue withevery single person in the marketing
organization, and then I schedule aone-on-one with them and talk through it.
I spent all the time with my peerson the executive team, as well as
their first line managers, and thenI set up calls, same calls, listening
tours with customers, if partners area part of your business, if you're
(26:47):
a channel business, I wanna talkto your top five channel partners.
And I am just listening andasking questions and really being
present in that first thirty days.
From there, I come back and share witheveryone, here's what I heard, here's what
(27:08):
I learned, here's what I think about that,and here are my next three to five steps.
So it's really leaning into that,you know, 30-60-90, but I'm coming
in because it's the only time,those first thirty days are my only
opportunity to be completely objective.
We all get sucked into it, nomatter how great we are at our
(27:32):
craft, and I spend lots of time withcustomers and partners so that I get
that real world voice in my head.
But the, the not knowing and not havingbiases is really, really important.
And the only way to really understand,for me, is to not say much except
(27:54):
for to ask a lot of questionsand really think through it.
Setting yourself up when you startwith people to let them know,
this is what I'm going to do.
So when you see me in a meeting,just asking questions, and I'm
not saying, well, why don't youdo this and why don't you do that?
That's a hundred percent intentional.
(28:16):
So don't think it's because I'm disengagedor, you know, I'm listening so that
I can come back to you in a reallythoughtful way with the information
I need to make good recommendationsand good decisions on the next steps.
The trick to all this is the transparencyand making sure your manager, if it's
(28:38):
a CEO, whomever that is, understandsthis is what I'm going to do, this
is the approach I'm gonna take,and here are the checkpoints you're
gonna get along the way from me.
You know, I believe trust comes fromtransparency, and as marketers, we
are great at marketing companies,products, launches, you name it.
(29:01):
Give us an ice cream coneand we will sell the truck.
Ask us to market ourselves or explainourselves and what we're trying to do,
and it's challenging for all of us.
So be really explicit and supertransparent of what you're doing, why
you're doing this, and what they canexpect, and then follow through on it.
(29:24):
And then when you have thosecheckpoint meetings, remind them.
Remember when I said that I was gonna,you know, go on this listening tour?
Well, I did.
Here are the people I talked to.
And one of the tricks in marketing,I think for this transparency,
and I joke with my teams all thetime that 'cause they'll say,
(29:46):
but we already told them that.
Hmm, if you told 'em ten times,you should have told 'em fifteen.
You have to repeat yourselfover and over and over.
But that trust comes over time withthe transparency and them understanding
the decisions you're making, whyyou're making them, where their input
(30:07):
is showing up in these decisions sothat they felt heard and continue
that and make that part of youroperating rhythm as a marketing leader.
I love that.
It reminds me of the whole, tell 'emwhat you're gonna tell him, tell them,
and then tell 'em what you told them,and just applying that to, to marketing.
And I like that inhabiting that kindof hyper objective period for the
(30:31):
first month on the, on the role.
That's great.
Thank you for sharing.
I have one final question for you.
This is something I ask almosteverybody that comes on the show, and
that is what is your favorite questionthat you like to ask when you are
interviewing somebody for your team?
So the very first question I ask,and I believe marketers, regardless
of where you are in the marketingorganization, marketers are storytellers.
(30:56):
And the first question I askpeople is, tell me your story.
And there's a hint - if somebodyjust plays back their resume to me?
Ehh, that's not your story.
That's not who you are.
Tell me your story and goback as far as you want.
(31:17):
Start with your kindergarten teacher.
I would love to hear, you know, what Ms.
Smith taught you in kindergartenand how that influenced your life.
Because I wanna hear how they shapedthat story and the easiest way to get
people to relax and really show youwho they are is to tell their story
(31:38):
of how they got to who they are today.
And that's where we startthe discussion from.
That's cool.
Do you give them bounds?
Like, okay, I want you to take nomore than five minutes to do this?
Because I mean, somebody could go on andon and on and half an hour goes by, right?
Right.
I will say like, you know, don'ttake more than ten minutes.
'Cause I might interrupt and say, ohwait, say a little bit more about that.
(32:01):
That was really interesting.
When did you decide that, you know, youwere gonna work at a wildlife rescue?
Like, tell me more about that.
What drove you to make that decision?
Where were you in your life?
You, as you know, as a leader, curiosity,integrity, and empathy - that's who I am.
(32:22):
And so for me to be effective,I really need to know a
little bit about that person.
Or a lot if they want to,to share that with me.
But having that frame of reference aboutevery single person on your team will
really change the way you think aboutworking with them, about the stretch
(32:45):
projects that you might give them, howto best give them feedback, how to cue
in when they're maybe not having sucha good time, but they're too shy to
say anything, and you can be proactive.
It is your entryway to reallystart to know that person.
And everybody wants tobe known and understood.
Yeah.
(33:05):
That's great.
Yeah, I had a, a former boss who usedto say, "Everybody has a sign on their
chest saying, 'Make me feel special.'"And I think when people tell their story,
you know, it's like they feel special.
And they also let theirguard down a little bit?
So you can kind of see the things thatare gonna come out that wouldn't come
out when they're practicing a recorded,you know, rehearsed answer to a question.
(33:27):
Yes.
Yeah, awesome.
Well, thank you so much forjoining the show, Melissa.
This has been great chatting with you.
And true to form, we covered a lot of,a lot of things, a lot of range here.
So, thank you, again.
Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.
It was great talking to you.
You too.
That was Melissa Sargeant.
Now, think about what flaws indecision-making or red flags that you
(33:48):
need to be most aware of and what'smost important for you to look out
for in your next recruiting decision.
Next time on The Get, you'll hearmore from me and from another guest.
Don't miss it.
Thanks for listening to The Get.
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
The Get is here to drive smartdecisions around recruiting and
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
(34:09):
We explore the trends, tribulations,and triumphs of today's top
marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
If you liked thisepisode, please share it.
For more about The Get,visit TheGetPodcast.com.
To learn more about my executive searchpractice, which focuses on recruiting the
make-money marketing leaders rather thanthe make-it-pretty ones, follow me on
LinkedIn or visit theconnectivegood.com.
(34:30):
The Get is produced by Evo Terraof Simpler Media Productions.
A successful career, in my view,comes from three things: talent,
(00:04):
good luck, and good decision-making.
Let's assume you're talented, andlet's assume luck is out of your hands.
The lever that you're leftwith is your decision-making.
How can you make the strongestdecisions possible, whether you're
recruiting or looking to get recruited?
Hello, and welcome to The Get.
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
I spend my days recruiting CMOsand VPs of Marketing in B2B SaaS.
(00:28):
My tagline is I place themake-money marketing leaders,
not the make-it-pretty ones.
With my role, I have a front-row seat tothe trends, tribulations, and triumphs of
today's top marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
And now with The Get you do, too.
The Get is designed to drive smartdecisions around recruiting and
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
(00:50):
This season, we focus onthe race to reduce risk.
When it comes to a match betweena company and a CMO, how can you
find out what you need to find outbefore saying yes so that you make
a match that sticks and flourishes?
Today, you'll hear from me onflaws in decision-making to
avoid in the recruiting process.
Then, you'll hear more perspectivesfrom my guest, Melissa Sargeant,
(01:12):
who has been a CMO multiple times.
The first part of making agood decision is realizing that
there's a decision to be made.
Sometimes it doesn't feel likeit, but with many things around
careers and hiring we do most oftenhave more choice than we think.
The second part is having a goodprocess for decision-making.
As we have seen with other episodes,it's important to have some framework,
(01:34):
some key things that you examineintentionally before saying yes.
And the third part is avoiding gettingtripped up with your decision-making.
In my executive search role, I haveseen people fall into a bunch of
different decision-making traps.
Let's review some of these, andas I go through these, consider
which ones you have fallen prey to.
The first is trusting someone else'sdue diligence without doing your own.
(01:57):
Like when you're hiring a marketingleader, and you trust a reference
from someone you know who has workedwith the person before so much so
that you skip your own due diligence.
It can also happen when you'rea CMO candidate and you already
know the CEO or CFO or CRO.
You think, "That person is there.
They did their research andthey're smart and we click.
So it is likely a great fit for me."
(02:19):
You scrutinize the match lessthan you would otherwise.
A second flaw in decision-makingis thinking that the company
has a greater appetite fortransformation than it actually does.
Every CMO needs to navigate what I callthe Peacemaker/Changemaker Paradox.
They have to thread that needlebetween making change and doing so in
a way that brings the company along.
(02:41):
Sometimes, the company is just not readyfor the change that someone can bring.
Another flaw - underestimating theamount of stretch in the role, thinking
that the new marketing leader will beas coachable as they need to be or that
the CEO has the capacity or abilityto upskill the new head of marketing.
The next flaw is representativebias, thinking that this
(03:01):
situation is so much like another.
Oh, it's the same size company,the same investors, so the same
playbook I used then will work now.
Or the same person who did this inanother company will succeed here.
These factors can be good indicators, butthey don't necessarily predict success.
Another flaw is commitment bias.
I put so much into this,so I should continue.
(03:23):
It's like continuing to waitfor a bus that isn't coming.
Staying in a role for too longonce it is clear it is just not
a fit, is an example of this.
Or, investing a lot of timeinto a recruiting process and
wanting it to just be over.
So you say yes even whenthere are big reservations.
The next flaw is confirmationbias, looking for information to
(03:43):
support our initial impression.
For example, you have greatinterviews with someone.
You feel a good vibe, but you haven'treally seen the person in action, and
you haven't tapped into things likebehavioral assessments to vet the match.
Another flaw - falling in love with theproduct instead of the product market fit.
Or thinking that because you know theICP or you are the ICP, it'll be easy.
(04:07):
The last flaw that comes tomind is falling in love with the
company that someone worked at.
Like, yay, I'm going to get to work withthe person who led marketing at company
X, Y, Z, rather than focusing on how theyapproach their role and their work style.
Remember, sometimes a company issuccessful because of somebody's
contribution in marketing,and sometimes it is successful
(04:27):
despite their contribution.
If you are just as fascinated bydecision science as me, there are
lots of great resources on it.
There's a fabulous book I recommendto many clients and candidates.
It's called Decisiveby Chip and Dan Heath.
Check it out if you are facinga big career or life decision.
Now, let's bring on myguest, Melissa Sargeant.
(04:47):
Melissa has been CMO four times, mostrecently at AlphaSense and previously
at Litmus, SugarCRM, and ChannelAdvisor.
Before that, she was in seniormarketing roles at Avalara and CA.
She has driven great scale-upjourneys in her career, and I'm
really impressed by her sheer rangeas a leader and as a marketer.
(05:07):
She knows a lot about decision-making inrecruiting, both hiring and getting hired.
So Melissa, welcome to The Get.
I'm glad to have you here.
Thank you so very much.
I'm really excited to be here.
Thanks for the invitation.
So you have been a CMO four times now,and I'm wondering if you can look back
to your, your previous self, you know,before you started your CMO journey.
(05:30):
What do you know now that you didn'tknow before your first CMO gig?
As it relates to reducing riskin the recruiting process,
which is our theme here.
I think the main thing that I didn'tunderstand was that I needed to map out in
that first role as I was interviewing forit, the things that were important to me.
(05:52):
So, for example, for some people, asa CMO, it might be really important to
report into the CEO so that you can havea strategic seat at that table and really
be there as part of the executive team.
It might also be important, very importantto really understand things like product
(06:16):
market fit because we get that, youknow, the most glowy, best pictures of
what's going on from the product sideof the house as we're interviewing.
And I wish I had, I still would've madethe same decision I made, but now I
know that there's this list of theseimmutable things that I will not negotiate
(06:40):
upon that are critical to my successin the role, critical to the success
of the team, and being able to recruitpeople to that organization once I get
there and that I have to stick to thatand not let someone kind of talk me
out of some things that are important.
(07:03):
Really, because it's ultimately gonnadrive the success in that role and
the outcomes you're able to drive.
That's fascinating.
So have you ever had somebody try to talkyou out of something where your gut was
saying, "Oh no, I'm gonna stick with me."
And then, you know, you're kindof like trying to see the logic
of what they were saying, but alsoyour gut was saying something else?
(07:27):
Yes, and specifically as itrelates to product market fit.
It was an organization that had grownreally quickly, had product market
fit, and then as it happens in themarket, things are always changing.
The only constant we can manage is change,and product market fit started to slip.
(07:50):
And so it was very clear tome that that was happening.
And so when I brought it up during theinterview process, they tried to convince
me, no, it's really just a pipeline issue.
And I said, I agree that you have apipeline issue, but the pipeline issue
is related to product market fit.
(08:12):
And I can come in and help you workthrough the product market fit issues,
but we all have to be intellectuallyhonest together that that's the core
issue here, and we can work through that.
And then, over time, that's gonnahelp us from a pipeline perspective.
But if we don't have a sharedunderstanding of what the real
(08:36):
issue is, in six months, they'renot gonna be happy with me.
In six months, I'm notgonna be happy with them.
And, and no one reallymoves the needle forward.
Yeah, it's a great point because productmarket fit, sometimes companies are
like, you either have it or you don't.
But it seems like you have itmostly but never perfectly.
(08:56):
And then it changes, and you know,like maybe you had it a few months
ago but things have changed.
And now you need to find a new, just anew place to sit with product market fit.
Yeah, it, it's definitelynot one and done.
It's, you know, it's something that'scontinually evolving and you have
to really keep that top of mind.
Yeah, yeah.
(09:16):
So can you double click here on,maybe share a couple of things,
one or two things that you havedone before saying yes to a job?
Something you have asked in particular,or information you found out that
others could learn from as theyare looking to mitigate their risk?
Definitely.
One thing is as we go through theseprocesses, and it may sound familiar to
(09:39):
people, you go into these interviews,whether it's the first one or you're,
you know, in your fifth or sixth round,and they'll map out the plan for you.
Say, here's the agenda.
I'm gonna talk about some things that theinterviewer's gonna share some things.
Then, they're gonna ask some questions,and I'm gonna leave you, candidate,
(09:59):
five to ten minutes at the end of thisto answer any questions that you have.
And I think that that's commonat the beginning of the process
because you're trying to figure outsynergies, does this make sense?
But as a candidate, you need much, muchmore time to be able to figure out if
(10:21):
this is the right opportunity for you.
And so what I have done when I find myselfin those situations, and if I'm continuing
to advance through the process, is I willput together my list of questions, and
whenever that next interview is coming up,particularly if it's gonna be my manager,
(10:43):
the CEO, I will write out the questions.
I will send it forty-eight hours inadvance of the interview and say, I know
you probably have some agenda items thatyou wanna talk through with me, but here
are a list of questions to help guideour discussion and things that I'm really
interested in going further in with you.
(11:06):
And if we're not able to get to itin this next discussion, I would like
to make a request that we schedulea follow-up discussion so we can
both get through these questions.
My view is that a good manager,a good hiring manager, should be
excited that the person has beenthoughtful about this and wants to
(11:28):
go through this process with them.
I really like that.
I actually had a client once who, herapproach for interviewing, she was a
CMO who was hiring people on her team,and her approach to interviewing was,
the first conversation was all about heranswering questions that the candidate
had, and the second conversation washer actually interviewing the person.
(11:51):
Because she felt like once they weresmarter about the business, they
would be smarter about the interview.
It was a bigger investment on hertime, you know, on her part, but these
were vetted candidates beforehand.
I'm wondering, can you sharemaybe a question or two that a CEO
has reacted really strongly to?
That you've done in your forty-eighthours before or during the interview?
(12:14):
So the areas I really like to digdeep into are the dynamics around how
that executive team works together.
I will usually start at a higherlevel and ask about how does
strategy get developed here?
And often people will say something like,we do OKRs, or we do the V2MOM framework.
(12:38):
Great.
I love frameworks.
How do you get there?
What happens before that comes on paper?
Oh, we go on an offsite.
Fantastic.
What does that offsite look like?
Do you, Ms.
CEO, come to that meeting withdocumentation that you've put
together in terms of your goals andhere's how you see the strategy?
(13:02):
Do you have each of your executiveteam members come prepared with, you
know, a presentation or a talk trackon what they see the strategy is?
How does that happen?
It's very telling about the dynamics ofthat organization because what I've seen
(13:24):
is some very top-down structures wherethe CEO, or maybe it's a founder CEO,
is, you know, very common, certainly inmy space, has a, is the visionary in the
company and they're the ones, they'rethe person that's looking around corners.
So they have a very clear view of whatthey think that strategy should be.
(13:46):
Or perhaps it's a more mature organizationand all the key stakeholders, all the
key executives come with what they think.
They've done their research and they'vegotten their feedback from customers
and they come to the table with that.
How that process happens and thediscussions that happen around it
(14:07):
is incredible insight on how thatteam works together on a daily
basis and what you can expect tosee in your executive team meetings.
Because in those meetings, my viewis that everyone should be talking.
And some organizations, if you see or ifyou hear, it seems like there's one person
(14:30):
who talks the most and others are justlistening and maybe asking a question.
That's something you want to understand abit more about because if everybody really
has a strategic seat at that table, howthat process happens is really critical.
(14:51):
The part two of that that I willask them is, how do you disagree?
You get lots of differentresponses to that.
In a healthy working environment,there is a level of disagreement that's
necessary to move the company forward.
It can be done in a respectful andprofessional way, but it should be a red
(15:16):
flag for candidates if they see thoseinteractions, and if you feel like you
get into these spirited discussions andthen you go away from that meeting, and
if you have to spend the next two weeksrepairing your relationship with your
colleagues, it's probably not a healthyorganization that celebrates and wants
(15:39):
those diverse voices at the table.
So for me, I really wannaunderstand how do we work together?
And that can be a challengingquestion for them to answer because
there's so many facets to that.
One of the examples I typically bringup is say, okay, how do you disagree?
(15:59):
Like what happens when you'reon very different sides.
Do you go through this debating processand as the CEO you're listening to
this and then you make the decisionand you have a contract and how
you're gonna interact with each otherand it's, we disagree and commit?
(16:20):
What does that look likefor your organization?
If they haven't thought thatthrough, that's something that, you
know, you need to be aware of as acandidate going into that situation.
If they have a real, like, yes, weabsolutely disagree and commit and
that's how we're gonna interactwith each other on a regular basis.
(16:42):
So fascinating.
Follow up question, are you looking forthe kind of structure of decision-making
and, and fighting to be set before youwalk in and then you kind of inherit that?
Or are you looking for a situationwhere you, as a CMO, are going to
influence that if it's not totally bait?
(17:04):
You know, 'cause those are twodifferent ways of reacting.
You know, the inheriting itversus kind of promulgating it.
It's a little bit of both in thatI want to understand how they
operate today so I can think throughhow I'm gonna best engage with
them as a group and individually.
(17:26):
If the company's just not at that place,and I work at a lot of, have worked
at a lot of earlier stage companiesor high-growth companies where you're
growing so fast you don't always havetime to figure out all this management
stuff that underpins the business.
I wanna be able to have a voice andhave a discussion around these things.
(17:50):
And there's lots of training andbooks and things that we can do as
leaders to get better at it because,ultimately, that's a key part of our job.
The rest of the organization trustsus to get this strategy right.
They trust us to work together asproductive partners so that they
(18:13):
can take that cue from us andgo and do the execution elements
that ladder up to that strategy.
Right.
Right.
Makes sense.
I love those questions.
It's so, because I feel like with thosetwo questions about how is strategy
set and how do you disagree, you couldjust ask those two and that could
be like two hours of conversationright there and a ton of learning.
(18:36):
So, that's great.
Let's talk about flaws in decision-making.
I'd love for you to share yourperspective, both on the side
of having gotten recruited andhaving recruited teams before.
Can you talk about maybe some, youknow, top flaws in decision-making
that you've seen or that you thinkpeople should be most wary of?
And maybe it's something that you've, youknow, kind of done battle with yourself.
(18:59):
Curious to hear your take there.
I will start from the latter partof that because I've made several
mistakes in this process over the years.
I think it's, it's trusting your gut.
Your gut is your truth.
And one of the words I thinkthat is overused a bit today,
(19:21):
but I'll say it, red flags.
When you see something and you'relike, that just doesn't quite feel
right, or I don't understand that.
For me, I know that because I'm atech geek, I will tend to overlook
these, you know, red flags.
(19:42):
And I've had certain situationswhere they weren't red flags.
I would say it was like thisbeacon of light with sparkles
and fireworks saying, "Melissa!
Danger, Melissa!
Danger, Melissa!"
And I will have overlooked itbecause I would be enamored with
(20:02):
some other part of the organization,or I really liked the team and, you
know, I would second guess myself.
I'm, I'm being too critical here.
Now, I'm incredibly intentionalabout that, that if I see a red
flag, and I know it's a red flagbecause I feel it in my gut.
Something doesn't feel right.
(20:23):
And that's where your truth is.
And I think that's true for both ifyou're interviewing candidates and
something comes up and it doesn't quitefeel right around that, or if you are the
person that's interviewing for the role.
And the way I manage that, personally,is I will remind myself, and sometimes
(20:45):
I even put a sticky note on mydisplay that says, "Stay curious."
And for me that meanskeep asking questions.
Get a little more curiosity.
Get more clarity.
See if there's something thatyou're misunderstanding there or
there's some information that youdon't have around that red flag.
(21:09):
But if you can't get it and you stillhave that feeling, you have to honor it.
And that can be really, really hard.
If it's, you know, a companythat you're super excited about.
We're in a time now where it'sreally competitive for roles
and you're excited about that.
(21:30):
But every time, whether it was a rolethat I chose or a candidate that I
was hiring, and that red flag, thattwinge I get in my stomach was ignored,
I paid for it every single time.
Yeah.
(21:50):
Yeah.
You know, I have a coach who toldme once something really smart.
She said, "Your gutdoesn't speak English."
So I love how you're talking aboutkind of interrogating your gut, right?
It's like the gut has to have the spaceto say its truth, and you have to realize
that it's talking, and then you haveto realize it's not talking in English,
(22:12):
or whatever language you, you speak.
And then it's, oh, let me try totranslate for it and with it and
interrogate it to, uh, to figureout what it's trying to tell me.
That just stuck with me so, so much.
And I like what you're saying.
It's almost like when you get married,you know, it's like, oh, there's this
little thing, but are you okay withthat little thing becoming like a really
(22:35):
big thing, potentially, over time?
[Chuckling] Exactly.
Because - right - because what'sa small little, you know, gut
question mark initially becomesa bigger question mark over time.
Yeah.
Well said.
So it sounds like for you, youknow, the flaw in decision-making
is just not trusting the gut and,and not following the feelings.
Are there any others that you'veseen, in particular, you know, show
(22:58):
up when hiring or getting hired?
So a lot of times we'll get candidateswhom have been recommended to us by
people with whom we've worked in thepast, or maybe they're at the company.
And that's always great because,you know, in general, I think great
people tend to attract great people.
(23:20):
We still have to go through the sameprocess with them and not necessarily
give them an advantage in that scenario.
Because if they were great in someother organization with that person
- every organization is different.
Every culture is gonna be different.
(23:40):
How organizations make decisions, howpeople engage with each other, the culture
on that team could be quite different.
It doesn't necessarily translateinto success in that next role.
It's great to get that feedback andit's a place for you to ask lots
of questions and learn more, butI intentionally, now, again, it's
(24:06):
a mistake I've made in the past.
I don't start when I'm looking at aslate of candidates automatically adding
points to that person because, oh, theyknow this person and I love that person.
I would work with them a hundred times,and if they say they're perfect for
this, then you know, I trust them.
(24:27):
They might, I'm surethat person is fantastic.
It just doesn't mean that that'sautomatically gonna translate into
the role that you're recruiting for.
Or for you as a candidate thatyou're going into that the same
thing is gonna be true for you.
Yeah, yeah.
Well said.
Thank you for sharing.
I'd love to also get your take, forpeople who are new in a CMO role, they
(24:52):
often come into an organization that'skind of skeptical about marketing.
So do you have any tips for once somebodyhas gotten the job, and assuming it's the
right job, how do they turn the companyfrom being skeptical about marketing
to being supportive about marketing?
Trust is built through transparency.
And a lot of CMOs come intoorganizations - I joke that,
(25:15):
why do they always hire us last?
I feel like in every role it's like, "Wegot everything else in order, Melissa.
Now, can you just come and like,you know, you've got that magic dust
that you carry around with you andsprinkle it over here and in 90 days,
you know, everything will be better."
Sometimes CMO roles are reallyrevenue rescue missions for companies.
(25:40):
And so the way to set expectationsaround that is to be super transparent.
And we talk a lot about 30-60-90.
When I come into an organization, there'sa couple of things I do regardless.
First, I tell everybody, includingmy boss, don't ask me to make a
decision in the first thirty days.
(26:01):
The answer is no.
I'm not making any decisions.
I don't care how on fireyou believe this to be.
It's been on fire for a while.
It can burn a little bit longer.
And then that thirty days is alistening tour on steroids, you know,
from every single person on my team.
(26:24):
I do a start, stop, continue withevery single person in the marketing
organization, and then I schedule aone-on-one with them and talk through it.
I spent all the time with my peerson the executive team, as well as
their first line managers, and thenI set up calls, same calls, listening
tours with customers, if partners area part of your business, if you're
(26:47):
a channel business, I wanna talkto your top five channel partners.
And I am just listening andasking questions and really being
present in that first thirty days.
From there, I come back and share witheveryone, here's what I heard, here's what
(27:08):
I learned, here's what I think about that,and here are my next three to five steps.
So it's really leaning into that,you know, 30-60-90, but I'm coming
in because it's the only time,those first thirty days are my only
opportunity to be completely objective.
We all get sucked into it, nomatter how great we are at our
(27:32):
craft, and I spend lots of time withcustomers and partners so that I get
that real world voice in my head.
But the, the not knowing and not havingbiases is really, really important.
And the only way to really understand,for me, is to not say much except
(27:54):
for to ask a lot of questionsand really think through it.
Setting yourself up when you startwith people to let them know,
this is what I'm going to do.
So when you see me in a meeting,just asking questions, and I'm
not saying, well, why don't youdo this and why don't you do that?
That's a hundred percent intentional.
(28:16):
So don't think it's because I'm disengagedor, you know, I'm listening so that
I can come back to you in a reallythoughtful way with the information
I need to make good recommendationsand good decisions on the next steps.
The trick to all this is the transparencyand making sure your manager, if it's
(28:38):
a CEO, whomever that is, understandsthis is what I'm going to do, this
is the approach I'm gonna take,and here are the checkpoints you're
gonna get along the way from me.
You know, I believe trust comes fromtransparency, and as marketers, we
are great at marketing companies,products, launches, you name it.
(29:01):
Give us an ice cream coneand we will sell the truck.
Ask us to market ourselves or explainourselves and what we're trying to do,
and it's challenging for all of us.
So be really explicit and supertransparent of what you're doing, why
you're doing this, and what they canexpect, and then follow through on it.
(29:24):
And then when you have thosecheckpoint meetings, remind them.
Remember when I said that I was gonna,you know, go on this listening tour?
Well, I did.
Here are the people I talked to.
And one of the tricks in marketing,I think for this transparency,
and I joke with my teams all thetime that 'cause they'll say,
(29:46):
but we already told them that.
Hmm, if you told 'em ten times,you should have told 'em fifteen.
You have to repeat yourselfover and over and over.
But that trust comes over time withthe transparency and them understanding
the decisions you're making, whyyou're making them, where their input
(30:07):
is showing up in these decisions sothat they felt heard and continue
that and make that part of youroperating rhythm as a marketing leader.
I love that.
It reminds me of the whole, tell 'emwhat you're gonna tell him, tell them,
and then tell 'em what you told them,and just applying that to, to marketing.
And I like that inhabiting that kindof hyper objective period for the
(30:31):
first month on the, on the role.
That's great.
Thank you for sharing.
I have one final question for you.
This is something I ask almosteverybody that comes on the show, and
that is what is your favorite questionthat you like to ask when you are
interviewing somebody for your team?
So the very first question I ask,and I believe marketers, regardless
of where you are in the marketingorganization, marketers are storytellers.
(30:56):
And the first question I askpeople is, tell me your story.
And there's a hint - if somebodyjust plays back their resume to me?
Ehh, that's not your story.
That's not who you are.
Tell me your story and goback as far as you want.
(31:17):
Start with your kindergarten teacher.
I would love to hear, you know, what Ms.
Smith taught you in kindergartenand how that influenced your life.
Because I wanna hear how they shapedthat story and the easiest way to get
people to relax and really show youwho they are is to tell their story
(31:38):
of how they got to who they are today.
And that's where we startthe discussion from.
That's cool.
Do you give them bounds?
Like, okay, I want you to take nomore than five minutes to do this?
Because I mean, somebody could go on andon and on and half an hour goes by, right?
Right.
I will say like, you know, don'ttake more than ten minutes.
'Cause I might interrupt and say, ohwait, say a little bit more about that.
(32:01):
That was really interesting.
When did you decide that, you know, youwere gonna work at a wildlife rescue?
Like, tell me more about that.
What drove you to make that decision?
Where were you in your life?
You, as you know, as a leader, curiosity,integrity, and empathy - that's who I am.
(32:22):
And so for me to be effective,I really need to know a
little bit about that person.
Or a lot if they want to,to share that with me.
But having that frame of reference aboutevery single person on your team will
really change the way you think aboutworking with them, about the stretch
(32:45):
projects that you might give them, howto best give them feedback, how to cue
in when they're maybe not having sucha good time, but they're too shy to
say anything, and you can be proactive.
It is your entryway to reallystart to know that person.
And everybody wants tobe known and understood.
Yeah.
(33:05):
That's great.
Yeah, I had a, a former boss who usedto say, "Everybody has a sign on their
chest saying, 'Make me feel special.'"And I think when people tell their story,
you know, it's like they feel special.
And they also let theirguard down a little bit?
So you can kind of see the things thatare gonna come out that wouldn't come
out when they're practicing a recorded,you know, rehearsed answer to a question.
(33:27):
Yes.
Yeah, awesome.
Well, thank you so much forjoining the show, Melissa.
This has been great chatting with you.
And true to form, we covered a lot of,a lot of things, a lot of range here.
So, thank you, again.
Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.
It was great talking to you.
You too.
That was Melissa Sargeant.
Now, think about what flaws indecision-making or red flags that you
(33:48):
need to be most aware of and what'smost important for you to look out
for in your next recruiting decision.
Next time on The Get, you'll hearmore from me and from another guest.
Don't miss it.
Thanks for listening to The Get.
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
The Get is here to drive smartdecisions around recruiting and
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
(34:09):
We explore the trends, tribulations,and triumphs of today's top
marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
If you liked thisepisode, please share it.
For more about The Get,visit TheGetPodcast.com.
To learn more about my executive searchpractice, which focuses on recruiting the
make-money marketing leaders rather thanthe make-it-pretty ones, follow me on
LinkedIn or visit theconnectivegood.com.
(34:30):
The Get is produced by Evo Terraof Simpler Media Productions.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.