June 1, 2023 • 33 mins
A good CMO/Board relationship entails both giving and getting. Elana Anderson talks about putting Board members at the center of marketing initiatives by making bold asks of the Board to add value to customers and prospects. She also talks about the anatomy of a successful CMO/Board interview.
Elana Anderson has been the CMO for Veracode, Vidyo, and Salesforce Commerce Cloud. She reflects on her experiences interacting with Boards at public versus private companies.
Learn about:
- How to move from broadcasting to your board to incorporating them into your marketing initiatives
- How Board members can add value to you through special executive events and advisory sessions
- How you can discuss brand initiatives with the Board in an interactive and impactful way… even if the topic is short on numbers
- How to interview successfully with the Board for a CMO role
- When and how to prepare for serving on a Board yourself… and how to find your 'hook'
Key Links
https://www.linkedin.com/in/eranderson/
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The Get is here to drive smart decisions around recruiting and leadership in B2B SaaS marketing. We explore the trends, tribulations, and triumphs of today’s top marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
This season’s theme is the CMO and Board Relationship in B2B SaaS.
The Get’s host is Erica Seidel, who runs The Connective Good, an executive search practice with a hyper-focus on recruiting CMOs and VPs of Marketing, especially in B2B SaaS.
If you are looking to hire a CMO or VP of Marketing of the ‘make money’ variety - rather than the ‘make it pretty’ variety, contact Erica at erica@theconnectivegood.com. You can also follow Erica on LinkedIn or sign up for her newsletter at TheConnectiveGood.com.
The Get is produced by Evo Terra and Simpler Media Productions.
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erica Seidel (00:02):
Hello, and welcome to The Get.
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
This season we examine therelationship between CMOs and Boards.
How can that relationship gofrom fraught to functional,
and maybe even to fantastic?
Today we hear from Elana Anderson.
She and I overlapped at Forrester way backin the day, and since then, she has had
(00:24):
an awesome career as a marketing leader- from Forrester to IBM, and then Unica.
Then she was CMO at Demandware, whichbecame Salesforce Commerce Cloud.
After that, she was Chief Marketing andCustomer Officer at Vidyo, the video
tech company, and then CMO at Veracode.
You'll hear from her on abunch of interesting topics.
How to leverage Board members for yourmarketing initiatives - those independent
(00:47):
Board members with big names andimpressive resumes can be marketing gold.
How to prepare for an interviewwith a Board member, and how
to set yourself up for joiningBoards yourself and when to start.
Here we go.
Elana, thank you so much,and welcome to the show.
Elana Anderson (01:06):
Thanks Erica.
I'm really excited tobe with you here today.
Erica Seidel (01:09):
Yeah, it's fun to chat after all these years post Forrester.
Elana Anderson (01:12):
Yeah.
Erica Seidel (01:13):
I would love to just get right into a really nitty gritty, tough
question for you, which is, you know,you've worked in a lot of settings.
You've led a lot of different marketingteams of different, you know, sizes.
Can you share a hard-won lesson youhave had from interacting with a
Board, like something that reallysticks out in your experience?
Elana Anderson (01:32):
I have to say, I'm always happier when I'm talking
to the Board about numbers.
You know, topics like pipeline,deal flow, you know, numbers are
much more in the Board's lane and Iknow I can go toe-to-toe on topics
like MQLs and SQLs and pipelineconversion and bookings conversion.
So, but maybe not a hard-won lesson there.
(01:54):
So I think one, one thing that wouldalways make me cringe was when my
CEO would ask me to do like a specialupdate for the Board on brand.
Those would invariably turn out to beone of those sessions where investor
members of the Board might stepout of the room immediately or, you
know, they'd dive into their phonesor, you know, that sort of thing.
(02:17):
But the last time I had to do one ofthose sessions, I swore I was going to
figure out how to keep them engaged.
So after all they had, theyhad actually funded the, the
Board, the, the brand refresh.
So they had, they put a lot of money intoit, so I figured I owed them a session.
So I made it interactive.
We were, we were doing thismajor refresh and we, I started
(02:40):
out with a little brand quiz.
So throwing out little tiny brand elementsabout very well-known brands that they
would, they would recognize and knowand had them identify those brands.
And then I, I took those elementsand compared and contrasted our old
versus new to illustrate some ofthe opportunities that we had, and
(03:01):
then, and then how the new brandwas addressing those opportunities.
Now, so this engaged them.
It got them talking.
It turned some lights on.
I got them to know me and myquirky personality a bit more.
And it was great because thatevening at the Board dinner,
several of them came up to me.
We talked a lot more.
I actually sat next to our chairmanthat night at dinner, and I,
(03:23):
I felt that it really opened adoor for me, um, with that group.
So I, you know, I, I suppose inretrospect, it's a bit of a dull lesson,
you know, for a market, for a marketer,but, you know, the, the lesson is figure
out how to engage your audience, right?
Erica Seidel (03:37):
Yeah.
Elana Anderson (03:37):
Obviously Marketing 101, you know, you know that numbers
are gonna engage the Board, but if youhave a topic that's short on numbers,
like a, a rebrand topic, how do youmake that interesting and impactful?
I chose to make it interactive, right,and, and use brands that I knew they
had opinions on, or would be aware ofto make a case for why we had to do
(03:59):
something, you know, about our own brand.
Erica Seidel (04:02):
How exactly did you make it interactive and what was the aha
that they had as you worked with them?
Elana Anderson (04:11):
Well, so I ki- kind of made it fun, right?
I mean, and recognize this isn't likean hour session, this is probably
right, 20 minutes, you know, 25minutes at, at most that you have
to, you know, have this discussion.
So it has to be impactful and quick.
And so I put up little brand elements.
So a color or part of a taglineabout a particular brand and had
(04:36):
them, well, who is this brand?
And when you can immediately identify whothat brand is, that tells you something.
And, and then, and if I showyou, well, who's this brand?
And you have no idea who that is andit's, and it's us, um, you know, that,
that starts to unveil, well, we havesome opportunity or some work to do.
Erica Seidel (04:57):
I see.
Elana Anderson (04:58):
And then if you can compare and contrast, well,
here's how we're doing it today,whether it's a color change.
I mean, very often what is lessinteresting to a, a Board member than,
hey, we're changing our colors from, youknow, from teal to, you know, purple.
But sometimes that does make a difference.
And so to make it impactful, you get tothe opportunity and the whys behind that.
Erica Seidel (05:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
Elana Anderson (05:24):
You know, if I'm gonna tell you my towering strengths
also, my towering strengths arenot about the visual and the
color and that sort of thing.
So probably the most fearful I would everbe is having to get in front of a Board
and talk to, you know, here's, here'swhy we're making visual brand changes.
Erica Seidel (05:40):
Right.
Right.
Elana Anderson (05:40):
So that was pro- probably the hardest Board
session I've ever had to do.
Erica Seidel (05:45):
You mentioned to me previously that you had success
getting value from the Boardfor your marketing initiatives.
So kind of incorporating theminto your marketing initiatives.
So as opposed to just broadcastingout, kind of really integrating
Board stuff into your marketing.
Can you talk about that andshare a few examples of that?
Elana Anderson (06:04):
I've had the good fortune, um, and most people have this, you know,
you have independent Board members on yourBoard who are generally, uh, they're there
for a reason and they're, it's generallythey're experts in your market segment,
or they have, they have some particularexpertise and why they're on the Board.
And so I've had great successengaging those individuals
(06:26):
in my marketing activities.
And sometimes, you know, I think marketingexecs are reluctant to go and make the
ask, and I've found that Board membersare happy to participate and they've
been actually flattered to be asked.
At Demandware, we had, uh, a Boardmember by the name of Len Schlesinger.
(06:50):
Len is a Harvard BusinessSchool professor.
He was formerly the COO ofLimited brands, which in his day
owned, um, Victoria's Secret.
We had a customer conference thatwas a very successful event, but one
of the things that we were tryingto do was get more attendance from
an exec level audience, the truebusiness buyer, the business sponsor.
(07:13):
So I asked Len to if he wouldco-chair or be the guest chair of an
invite-only executive track, and thenhost a, a half-day workshop for me.
And maybe that was a littlegutsy, but he was thrilled, and
the only, only hesitation hehad was, you know, the calendar.
So thankfully I asked very early.
(07:34):
He was available that day and hewas more than happy to participate.
So, we were then marketing an executivetrack with a well-known business professor
to retail, you know, commerce executives.
It sold out easily.
We had our ideal profilecustomer at this event.
(07:56):
They also helped the registration ofthe overall general event because they
brought more team members to the event.
And the actual event was incredible.
I mean, we had Harvard BusinessSchool half-day workshop at the event.
It was, it was incredible.
I think you just need to make the ask.
And then, you know, for you as amarketer, particularly if you have,
(08:19):
you know, if you've been challengedto get in front of the Board, which I
think, you know, marketers may sometimesnot feel that they have their airtime
with the Board, you know, it's agreat way to establish communication.
Erica Seidel (08:31):
Hmm.
Yeah.
It's a great way to connect withthem outside of a Board meeting and-
Elana Anderson (08:35):
Exactly.
Erica Seidel (08:35):
And have them see you in action in another way.
Elana Anderson (08:39):
Exactly.
Erica Seidel (08:39):
Why do you think other CMOs don't think about doing this
and don't ask their Board members?
Like I've, I've interviewed a bunch ofpeople for this, and you're the first
one who has mentioned this as an angle.
Elana Anderson (08:52):
I think there's an intimidation factor.
I think, I think that, you know, insome cases people, CMOs may not feel
like they have the license to do it.
Um, they may not feelthat they have the access.
Maybe the CEO's, you know, a gatekeeper.
So I'd say ask, you know, it's a, uh, Ihave not, never had a no for an answer.
(09:14):
You know, maybe I've had, well, I'mnot available that day, but, uh, but
more often than not, Board membershave been thrilled to, to participate.
Erica Seidel (09:22):
How else have they participated?
Like, even in small ways, how else haveyou bought them into your, you know, kind
of day to day as a, as a marketing leader?
Elana Anderson (09:30):
Yeah, so in my last company I had, uh, one of our Board
members was really expert sort of on thepartner ecosystem, you know, and he was
more than happy to sit down with me andthe partner team, you know, engage in
a detailed dialogue in that, you know.
More than happy to, um, cons, youknow, be consultative with us in terms
(09:51):
of who, how we were prioritizing therelationships that we were building.
Erica Seidel (09:56):
Did you ever tap a Board member to interview somebody?
Like say you were interviewing for apartner, marketing, I don't know, VP
on your team, would you have tapped theBoard member to interview that person?
Elana Anderson (10:08):
I haven't done that.
That's a good idea.
I have gotten referrals fromBoard members, certainly.
And also, um, now that you mentionedit, I've, you know, again, both ways,
if I've had a question, um, I've been inp-backed companies and another company
in the portfolio had already gone throughsomething that we were going through, or
(10:31):
about to go through, and I was introducedto the CMO, you know, from that company
and had some great dialogue and lessonslearned from, from that individual.
And I've had the same,you know, same vice versa.
You know, I've had other CMOs from theportfolio engage with me, you know, and,
(10:51):
and, uh, learn from my, you know, from,from the things that I've been through.
Erica Seidel (10:55):
Yeah.
Elana Anderson (10:55):
So it's a great, you know, it's a great, uh, the
Board can be a great networking, youknow, venue, you know, way to meet
other people as well, avenue, yeah.
Erica Seidel (11:05):
When, when you've seen marketers switch from one size company
to the next, and when you yourself,has- have made those switches, how
do you need to adapt your approachwith working with the Board?
Elana Anderson (11:16):
Well, so public Boards have a bit more formality.
You know, there's a formal structure.
They've got their audit committee, thegovernance committee, the comp committee.
You know, and that's a,that's a, a structure-
Erica Seidel (11:29):
Yeah.
Elana Anderson (11:29):
that they have to follow.
But, you know, honestly, I've found thatin larger companies, so companies that,
you know, may be PE-backed, but they'reof a size that could be public, or maybe
they're, you know, they're looking to gopublic and in the not-too-distant future,
they tend to behave like public companies.
(11:51):
And I've had that conversationat the exec team level.
Um, particularly if you'relooking to go public, you wanna be
emulating those behaviors anyway.
Erica Seidel (12:00):
Mm-hmm.
Elana Anderson (12:00):
You know, so you might have even similar
committees on the Board and, uh,very similar, you know, structured
reporting process with the Board.
You know, similar process for how you're,you know, recording the minutes, you know,
for the Board and all of those things.
So, honestly, you know, if I compareof similar size public and private
(12:23):
companies, they operated verysimilarly, um, from a Board perspective.
Now there was all this reporting thatwe had to do as a public company.
That's not really the Board stuff, butthere's all kinds of stuff you still
ha- you have to do as a marketing,you know, as a CMO that you don't
have to do in a private company.
But, uh, that's, youknow, not the Board stuff.
(12:43):
You know, so the differences, Iwould say, you know, in terms of
interaction are, you know, I've,I've certainly seen smaller VC-backed
companies that are much more casual.
You know, I, I work now, I'm doing a lotof advisory work with smaller companies,
you know, and you may just have a coupleof investors on the Board and the CEO and
the founder or something like that, andthey may be more, they tend towards, some
(13:08):
are informal, some are very informal.
You know, it depends howmany investors there are.
Typically, the more in, you know, ifthere are multiple investors, maybe they
have a more formal structure becauseyou're, you know, dealing with, you
know, multiple, you know, you're dealingacross multiple investor companies.
Um, so they may have a more formalizedstructure if it's very closely held,
(13:28):
one investor, you know, and a founder.
It can be very loosey-goosey.
So I, you know, I think it reallydepends on, on those factors.
Um, but when they're very large, I,they tend to be more similar than not.
Erica Seidel (13:42):
If a CMO is at a company where the Board is one of these
loosey-goosey, you know, VC, you know,small VC, you know, situation, how
much would you recommend that theyimpose more formality and structure,
even if they're not asked for it?
Elana Anderson (13:58):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I was at a company that wasn't thatsmall actually, but it was, you know,
didn't have some of the formal structuresthat I have seen in other companies.
Um, for example, you know, we didn'thave, here are what our corporate
objectives are for the year andhere's how we're reporting on those
corporate objectives to the Board,you know, to the company, et cetera.
(14:21):
You know, so, I stepped in, in thatcase and, you know, worked across the
executive team to say, what are, youknow, what are the corporate objectives?
Let's write them down.
Let's, you know, let'sreport them to the Board.
You know, let's reportthem to the company.
Let's, you know, define howwe're going to measure them.
You know, I, I think if you see agap like that, there is certainly an
(14:45):
opportunity to step in and fill that gapand, you know, in, in that particular
organization, you know, I do think it,the, the, the chairman in that case
of our Board did recognize, you know,that I was stepping in and doing that.
And, you know, um, he laterengaged me in some strategic
initiatives for the company.
Erica Seidel (15:06):
Now, is there a difference in terms of CMO interactions with
the Board as a company scales, andcan you, can you talk through those?
You know, so, because a lot of, a lot ofpeople are with these scale-ups that are
going from, I don't know, 10 million to50 million, or 50 million to a 100 million
in ARI, or a 100 million to 500 million.
(15:26):
What have you seen when you're like,not going from one company to the next,
but, but within a company as it scales?
Elana Anderson (15:33):
I think my interactions have shifted less given scale
and more given what the strategicpriorities are at any given time.
You know, so if the strategic priority,you know, of the, of the business is
about modernizing the technology, it'slikely that the Chief Product Officer,
you know, is gonna be spending the timeon the hot seat, you know, with the
(15:56):
Board rather than, you know, ratherthan the Chief Marketing Officer.
Now, if the chief, uh, if, if thestrategic priority on the other hand
is, is about growth or fending off thecompetition, or you know, some other
go-to-market topic, then you know,I know it's much more likely that
I'm gonna be in the hot seat or, youknow, I and the, uh, the Chief Revenue
Officer are gonna be in the hot seat.
(16:17):
But I think, I do think, though,that regardless of the scale,
um, of the company, the CMOneeds to focus on objectives, on
outcomes, on critical metrics.
You know, some, sometimes marketersare over enamored, you know,
about, what they do rather thanthe outcomes that they drive.
(16:39):
You know?
And I think particularly with the Board,you know, it's about the destination.
It's not about the journey.
The journey really only matters whenthere's something that significantly
new, you know, significantly newlessons that you learned along the way.
Whether those lessons were good lessons,lessons that you wanna repeat, you know,
or, or lessons that, you know, you triedsomething, you know, and it didn't work.
(17:04):
I think they only care about thatjourney when there's something major
that you learned along the way.
Erica Seidel (17:10):
Why is it, do you think, that people get enamored of
the journey and not the destination?
It's very well said, by the way.
Elana Anderson (17:17):
Well, you know, I, I think we, um, we do a lot in marketing.
There's a lot of stuff that happensunder the covers in marketing.
And, um, at the end of the day, whatdoes the Board really care about is,
well, how did that impact sales, right?
You know, and, and there's so much workthat goes into it, you know, you wanna
(17:37):
get, you wanna talk about all thatwork that you did, but, uh, you know, I
think, frankly, we gotta get over that.
Erica Seidel (17:44):
[Small chuckle] Yeah, other people on the podcast have talked about
this, uh, that, that a lot of marketers,especially maybe when they're early to
being CMOs, they will want to say, oh,this is how I've been spending my time.
Elana Anderson (18:00):
Yeah.
Erica Seidel (18:00):
As opposed to this is the output of it, and that's, that's it.
That's enough.
Right.
Elana Anderson (18:05):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
You know, marketing, it's a, um, there'sa lot, you know, if you compare to the
other, you know, other functions, there'sso many intricate pieces in, in marketing,
but I, I think that, you know, you'rein the job as CMO, you know, because
they thought you knew how to do the job.
(18:26):
You know, so nobody needs toknow all those, all, all those
little details, you know?
Erica Seidel (18:30):
Mm-hmm.
Elana Anderson (18:31):
And I think if you know how to net it out and talk
about, you know, again, the, thelessons learned are very interesting
out of the major things that youdid that did or didn't, didn't work.
Erica Seidel (18:41):
Mm-hmm.
Elana Anderson (18:42):
That, that is interesting to a Board, I found, because those
are the things that they're gonnatell their other companies that, you
know, they're on the Boards of, youknow, that, that does get interesting.
In addition to the outcomes.
Erica Seidel (18:55):
So you've interviewed for a bunch of different CMO roles in the
course of your career, and presumablyyou've interviewed with Board members.
And I'm wondering, like, how,what, what should a uh, somebody
interviewing with a Board member fora CMO role, what should they expect?
How should they prepare?
Any thoughts there?
Elana Anderson (19:13):
I think for every exec role I've had, I've interviewed
with one or more Board members.
You know, honestly I prepare for them justlike I prepare for any, any interview.
I try to learn as much aboutthe individual as possible.
I start with their LinkedIn profile.
Uh, some Board members particularly,uh, you know, older ones may
not have a LinkedIn profile, butuh, you know, I researched the
(19:35):
companies that they worked for.
You know, you can usually find a lot onGoogle or you know, if, you know, if they
be movers and things like that you canfind a lot of information about people.
I look for articles.
So I, I try to get a, learn as muchas I can about them personally and
how, you know, how they operateand you know, what they know.
(19:55):
You know, and then what I said beforeabout outcomes is, is super important.
I don't expect to talk deepmarketing, you know, shop talk
with a, with a Board member.
You know, I've, I've, uh, again,I've yet to find many who are deeply
interested, you know, in the details.
So I tend to focus on talking aboutstrategy, um, strategy, the company,
(20:17):
um, the market, you know, themarket trends, um, the competitive
trends, the competitive landscape.
Um, I talk about how I've movedthe needle, you know, in, in other
companies, how I've aligned teams.
You know, and when I talk about teams,you know, it's how you've, how I've
aligned, you know, the marketingteam, but not just the marketing team.
Because I think what's critical in anexecutive role is not just, you know,
(20:40):
how you manage your function, but howyou work as a business executive, uh,
you know, across the organization, right?
Erica Seidel (20:49):
And it's interesting, you're talking about going, like,
talking about how you manage across.
I always, I, I, I think of this,like, framework of different
types of management, right?
So there's managing up, down, you know,like people work for you, inward, across,
like across the organization, and thenout, you know, like, like partners or
people like outside of the organization.
And in my experience, I've found that,you know, the best people are strong at
(21:12):
managing as many of those as possible.
And usually people have strengthsin some areas and less in others.
And you're right, as a CMO,sometimes people make the
mistake of being too siloed in-
Elana Anderson (21:23):
Yeah
Erica Seidel (21:24):
in how they describe their experience.
And so I like that, that aspect of youas like the chief, kind of, diplomacy
officer or something like, you know, thechief shuttle diplomat within the company.
Elana Anderson (21:35):
Yeah.
I think really reinforcing that pointof, you know, don't just, particularly
with a Board member, don't just gosort of down the marketing silo.
Make sure you're focusingacross, you know, across and out.
Yeah.
Erica Seidel (21:46):
Yeah.
Now an interview is a two-way street,and you're right that the, the
strongest interviews are ones whereyou don't get intimidated and you're
having a peer-to-peer dialogue.
So a CMO is also looking for a company tojoin and wanting to make sure that that's
gonna be a place where they can flourish.
So how should they interview a Board?
(22:07):
Like what clues should they lookfor to know that a Board would be-
a Board member or, or, you know,a Board would be a, a, you know, a
good one to kind of sign up with?
Elana Anderson (22:17):
Yeah, and I'm a, I'm also, uh, interviewing the Board
member, so to speak, to, you know, geta better sense of the company and the
culture and the opportunity, how muchthey believe in the company as well.
I always love to find out whatthey know about the market, the
competition, what they think theunique advantage of the company is.
(22:38):
And I think if they're able to answerthose questions, that gives the incoming,
you know, CMO, uh, a sense of how strongthe company's story resonates, right?
If, if you don't hear a crisp storyaround the unique advantage of the
company, then you, I've got some workto do, you know, on the messaging.
I also ask how I, I shouldexpect to work with them.
(23:00):
You know, and if they have an interestingbackground, I go, I start right there
and ask about if they're willing tosupport those marketing activities.
So, you know, start early on that count.
Erica Seidel (23:10):
That's great.
Now let me drill into something you said.
You wanna see how much theybelieve in the company.
How do you get at that?
Elana Anderson (23:17):
Well, I think that's, that's where, you know, I'm
asking about their understandingof the market and the unique
advantage, you know, of the company.
So why, why is this company going to win?
What makes them unique?
Erica Seidel (23:31):
Mm-hmm.
Elana Anderson (23:32):
What is the outlook for the company?
You know, why, why is this companygonna win over competitor X, Y, Z?
If competitor X, Y, Z might be a leader,and you know, the company's not a le-
not a leader, you know, it gives, gi-gives me a sense of a, how much they
believe and also how strong the messagingfor the company, for the business is.
Erica Seidel (23:51):
Hmm.
And it also shows that you'vedone your homework on the other
competitors and you're, you're kindof coming up with a bit of a, like
a pre-baked perspective, right?
You're asking for their perspective,but it seems like you've done enough of
your homework to, to have your own, tostart to have your own you on things.
Elana Anderson (24:07):
The company, the market, the competitive.
Yeah.
Erica Seidel (24:10):
Yeah.
Right, right, right.
Exactly.
Now, I know some people, when theyprepare for a company- for, for an
interview, they do like a kind ofcheat sheet, you know, kind of thing.
I'm remembering from business school,we all had these cheat sheets on
like, you know, five examples of, uh,you know, I don't know, increasing
revenue and, you know, three examplesof competitive differentiation.
Like, would that be useful, do youthink for somebody interviewing, for,
(24:33):
um, interviewing with a Board member?
Elana Anderson (24:35):
It would.
Have I done it?
No, it's a great, it's a good advice.
Um, I, I, well, I, you know, that's, Ido have my sort of little cheat sheets
of things that I've, I've, uh, how I'veincreased value at company A, company
B, company C, that sort of thing.
I do think it's a great,I, uh, a good idea.
I tend to be probably less structured,I suppose, in, in terms of how I
(25:00):
approach an interview like that.
You know, I do a lot of reading, butI don't, I don't come with a set of
notes, but, uh, but I do, you know,particularly if you're on video, which a
lot of the, uh, a lot of the interviewswith Board members tend to be, you know,
it's a good, it's a good thing to have.
Erica Seidel (25:19):
Right.
And it, but it's interesting cuz youcan have your notes, it's good to
have the notes, right, and whetheryou're in person or on video.
But you don't wanna seem likeyou're reliant on your notes.
Elana Anderson (25:29):
No.
Yeah.
Erica Seidel (25:30):
You need to be able to have that.
And it's the same for interviewing for aCMO job when you're interviewing the CEO.
Elana Anderson (25:35):
Absolutely.
Having a, being natural,having a se- seamless dialogue.
You know, not feeling nervous, youknow, not, not appearing nervous.
Absolutely.
You know, you wanna be natural, you wantit to flow, you know, certainly the larger
the company, if it's a public company,you know, if it's a public company, you're
likely, you know, gonna be a face of thebusiness, you know, in many situations.
(25:55):
And, you know, for a CMO to becalm, cool, and collected, and,
you know, uh, in, in that kind ofsituation is incredibly important.
Erica Seidel (26:06):
So you are now, um, in discussions with companies about Board
roles for yourself after having allthese awesome CMO roles in different
companies and different experiences.
So for marketers who anticipate beingin your shoes one day, you know, what
should they expect and, and what are youlearning about, you know, joining a Board?
Elana Anderson (26:26):
Well, so you should expect it to be a process.
It's gonna take a lot of time.
It's gonna take a lot ofnetworking and a lot of time.
Unless you have an incredible strokeof luck, um, you're likely gonna start
with smaller companies, uh, privatecompanies, you know, and then you'll
(26:48):
work your way towards larger privatecompanies, public companies, um, someday.
You know, if, if you're, uh, you shouldconsider, if you haven't already, you
should join a, consider joining anadvisory Board now and add some of
that or, or more than one, add someof that experience to your profile.
(27:10):
You know, I also, you shouldstart sooner than later.
If your growth path is towards Boardwork, then you should engage your
boss and your current Board to helpyou secure your first Board role now.
And in some companies, you know,that might be controversial.
(27:31):
Um, I was in a session a coupleweeks ago, um, with Chris
Comparato, who's the CEO of Toast.
And you know, he was saying that, youknow, several years ago, he, he didn't
want his execs to be on Boards, andnow he's completely changed his mind,
um, because it's such great experience.
(27:51):
And, you know, I think back to companiesthat, you know, I've been at and, you
know, you do this annual survey every,every year and the individuals in the
company that tend to be least satisfiedwith their growth, um, their growth and
development are senior execs, because, youknow, and I know I felt this way to some
(28:13):
extent too, like what's my growth plan?
I don't have one, you know?
I'm not gonna get promoted, you know,you know, I can take on more things in
special projects and always did that.
But you know, so I think for a lot ofpeople in the executive suite, that
Board work is a great growth plan.
And so sitting down and working withyour boss and talking about, well,
(28:37):
how do you, you know, how can you worktogether to secure that first Board role.
I wish I had been more aggressiveabout doing that myself.
I wish I had carved outmore time to do that.
I didn't feel like Ihad the time, you know?
I regret that, regret that now, so Ican't recommend that highly enough.
(29:01):
And there are also some great preparatory,um, programs out there, you know, to help,
particularly for DEI candidates, you know.
Um, if you're in Massachusetts, in theBoston area, Mass TLC has this great
program called the Board Ready Bootcamp.
I've sent folks who worked for me to it inthe past, worked for me to it in the past.
(29:22):
Um, they run it twice a year.
Deloitte has a regional programthat they run once a year.
You know, there's tons oflists and that sort of thing.
There's the Athena Alliance.
There's like, there's so manyprograms that, um, you know,
that are out there that, youknow, to help you sort of prepare
yourself, um, for, for that future.
Erica Seidel (29:44):
That's great.
And is branding yourselffor Board any different than
branding yourself for a CMO role?
Elana Anderson (29:51):
Well, you know, I think I, you know, I'm a firm believer in your
brand as your, you know, your, your brand.
Be authentic, be, you know, be yourself,be, you know, all those things.
But I do think it's very important whenyou're positioning yourself, you know,
I'll use that term instead of brand, whenyou're positioning yourself for Board
work, you know, you're shifting from, youknow, as the CMO, you owned it, right?
(30:14):
You delivered it, you execute it.
You know, the big shift hereto, to Board is, you know,
you're now in an advisory seat.
You know, you're now leveraging allthat experience you have to advise.
You don't own it.
You can't tell companies what to do.
You can give examples.
You can make suggestions.
(30:35):
You can make connections.
Uh, you're advising.
I'm fortunate, you know, we worked atForrester together as, as an analyst.
You know, I did a lot of advisorywork, you know, for lots of companies,
you know, so I, I have a lot of thatbackground, you know, in my history.
Um, so I'm fortunate, you know, it'svery relevant to, to Board work.
(30:57):
I also think that it's importantto, um, to target companies.
You don't wanna just try tobe a Board member anywhere.
Um, you wanna try to target companiesthat are really relevant, you
know, for you, for your background.
So you know, for example, you know, ifyou have deep expertise in product-led
growth, then go and find a companythat is maybe focused on an enterprise
(31:24):
sales motion, but they're trying toshift to product-led growth because
they really need your expertise, right?
They're not a product-ledgrowth company today.
They're trying to make this shift.
So that expertise, you know, wouldbe tremendously helpful to them.
That sort of thing may, you know, maybeit's a, you know, maybe it's an industry
expertise, you know, that sort of thing.
(31:44):
Maybe you're a known personality intheir industry, you know, so you have
to figure out what your, you know,what your hook is, so to speak, if,
uh, you know, if you're, you know,gonna try to be an independent Board
member at a particular company.
Erica Seidel (32:00):
Thank you so much for joining the show, Elana, this has
been fabulous speaking with you.
Elana Anderson (32:04):
Likewise.
Yeah, really fun.
Thanks for, thanks for inviting me.
Erica Seidel (32:08):
Now that you have heard from Elana, think about how you can
put your Board members to work asadjunct members of the marketing team.
Next time on The Get you'llhear from Sandra Lopez.
You'll hear about how to put your bestfoot forward when you interview with a
Board, about managing expectations withthe Board on how long things take in
marketing, and about nonprofit Boardsas a segue to for-profit Board work.
(32:31):
Don't miss it.
Thanks for listening to The Get.
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
The Get is here to drive smartdecisions around recruiting and
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
We explore the trends, tribulations,and triumphs of today's top
marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
If you liked thisepisode, please share it.
(32:52):
For more about The Get,visit thegetpodcast.com.
To learn more about my executive searchpractice, which focuses on recruiting the
make-money marketing leaders rather thanthe make-it-pretty ones, follow me on
LinkedIn or visit theconnectivegood.com.
The Get is produced by Evo Terraof Simpler Media Productions.
Hello, and welcome to The Get.
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
This season we examine therelationship between CMOs and Boards.
How can that relationship gofrom fraught to functional,
and maybe even to fantastic?
Today we hear from Elana Anderson.
She and I overlapped at Forrester way backin the day, and since then, she has had
(00:24):
an awesome career as a marketing leader- from Forrester to IBM, and then Unica.
Then she was CMO at Demandware, whichbecame Salesforce Commerce Cloud.
After that, she was Chief Marketing andCustomer Officer at Vidyo, the video
tech company, and then CMO at Veracode.
You'll hear from her on abunch of interesting topics.
How to leverage Board members for yourmarketing initiatives - those independent
(00:47):
Board members with big names andimpressive resumes can be marketing gold.
How to prepare for an interviewwith a Board member, and how
to set yourself up for joiningBoards yourself and when to start.
Here we go.
Elana, thank you so much,and welcome to the show.
Elana Anderson (01:06):
Thanks Erica.
I'm really excited tobe with you here today.
Erica Seidel (01:09):
Yeah, it's fun to chat after all these years post Forrester.
Elana Anderson (01:12):
Yeah.
Erica Seidel (01:13):
I would love to just get right into a really nitty gritty, tough
question for you, which is, you know,you've worked in a lot of settings.
You've led a lot of different marketingteams of different, you know, sizes.
Can you share a hard-won lesson youhave had from interacting with a
Board, like something that reallysticks out in your experience?
Elana Anderson (01:32):
I have to say, I'm always happier when I'm talking
to the Board about numbers.
You know, topics like pipeline,deal flow, you know, numbers are
much more in the Board's lane and Iknow I can go toe-to-toe on topics
like MQLs and SQLs and pipelineconversion and bookings conversion.
So, but maybe not a hard-won lesson there.
(01:54):
So I think one, one thing that wouldalways make me cringe was when my
CEO would ask me to do like a specialupdate for the Board on brand.
Those would invariably turn out to beone of those sessions where investor
members of the Board might stepout of the room immediately or, you
know, they'd dive into their phonesor, you know, that sort of thing.
(02:17):
But the last time I had to do one ofthose sessions, I swore I was going to
figure out how to keep them engaged.
So after all they had, theyhad actually funded the, the
Board, the, the brand refresh.
So they had, they put a lot of money intoit, so I figured I owed them a session.
So I made it interactive.
We were, we were doing thismajor refresh and we, I started
(02:40):
out with a little brand quiz.
So throwing out little tiny brand elementsabout very well-known brands that they
would, they would recognize and knowand had them identify those brands.
And then I, I took those elementsand compared and contrasted our old
versus new to illustrate some ofthe opportunities that we had, and
(03:01):
then, and then how the new brandwas addressing those opportunities.
Now, so this engaged them.
It got them talking.
It turned some lights on.
I got them to know me and myquirky personality a bit more.
And it was great because thatevening at the Board dinner,
several of them came up to me.
We talked a lot more.
I actually sat next to our chairmanthat night at dinner, and I,
(03:23):
I felt that it really opened adoor for me, um, with that group.
So I, you know, I, I suppose inretrospect, it's a bit of a dull lesson,
you know, for a market, for a marketer,but, you know, the, the lesson is figure
out how to engage your audience, right?
Erica Seidel (03:37):
Yeah.
Elana Anderson (03:37):
Obviously Marketing 101, you know, you know that numbers
are gonna engage the Board, but if youhave a topic that's short on numbers,
like a, a rebrand topic, how do youmake that interesting and impactful?
I chose to make it interactive, right,and, and use brands that I knew they
had opinions on, or would be aware ofto make a case for why we had to do
(03:59):
something, you know, about our own brand.
Erica Seidel (04:02):
How exactly did you make it interactive and what was the aha
that they had as you worked with them?
Elana Anderson (04:11):
Well, so I ki- kind of made it fun, right?
I mean, and recognize this isn't likean hour session, this is probably
right, 20 minutes, you know, 25minutes at, at most that you have
to, you know, have this discussion.
So it has to be impactful and quick.
And so I put up little brand elements.
So a color or part of a taglineabout a particular brand and had
(04:36):
them, well, who is this brand?
And when you can immediately identify whothat brand is, that tells you something.
And, and then, and if I showyou, well, who's this brand?
And you have no idea who that is andit's, and it's us, um, you know, that,
that starts to unveil, well, we havesome opportunity or some work to do.
Erica Seidel (04:57):
I see.
Elana Anderson (04:58):
And then if you can compare and contrast, well,
here's how we're doing it today,whether it's a color change.
I mean, very often what is lessinteresting to a, a Board member than,
hey, we're changing our colors from, youknow, from teal to, you know, purple.
But sometimes that does make a difference.
And so to make it impactful, you get tothe opportunity and the whys behind that.
Erica Seidel (05:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
Elana Anderson (05:24):
You know, if I'm gonna tell you my towering strengths
also, my towering strengths arenot about the visual and the
color and that sort of thing.
So probably the most fearful I would everbe is having to get in front of a Board
and talk to, you know, here's, here'swhy we're making visual brand changes.
Erica Seidel (05:40):
Right.
Right.
Elana Anderson (05:40):
So that was pro- probably the hardest Board
session I've ever had to do.
Erica Seidel (05:45):
You mentioned to me previously that you had success
getting value from the Boardfor your marketing initiatives.
So kind of incorporating theminto your marketing initiatives.
So as opposed to just broadcastingout, kind of really integrating
Board stuff into your marketing.
Can you talk about that andshare a few examples of that?
Elana Anderson (06:04):
I've had the good fortune, um, and most people have this, you know,
you have independent Board members on yourBoard who are generally, uh, they're there
for a reason and they're, it's generallythey're experts in your market segment,
or they have, they have some particularexpertise and why they're on the Board.
And so I've had great successengaging those individuals
(06:26):
in my marketing activities.
And sometimes, you know, I think marketingexecs are reluctant to go and make the
ask, and I've found that Board membersare happy to participate and they've
been actually flattered to be asked.
At Demandware, we had, uh, a Boardmember by the name of Len Schlesinger.
(06:50):
Len is a Harvard BusinessSchool professor.
He was formerly the COO ofLimited brands, which in his day
owned, um, Victoria's Secret.
We had a customer conference thatwas a very successful event, but one
of the things that we were tryingto do was get more attendance from
an exec level audience, the truebusiness buyer, the business sponsor.
(07:13):
So I asked Len to if he wouldco-chair or be the guest chair of an
invite-only executive track, and thenhost a, a half-day workshop for me.
And maybe that was a littlegutsy, but he was thrilled, and
the only, only hesitation hehad was, you know, the calendar.
So thankfully I asked very early.
(07:34):
He was available that day and hewas more than happy to participate.
So, we were then marketing an executivetrack with a well-known business professor
to retail, you know, commerce executives.
It sold out easily.
We had our ideal profilecustomer at this event.
(07:56):
They also helped the registration ofthe overall general event because they
brought more team members to the event.
And the actual event was incredible.
I mean, we had Harvard BusinessSchool half-day workshop at the event.
It was, it was incredible.
I think you just need to make the ask.
And then, you know, for you as amarketer, particularly if you have,
(08:19):
you know, if you've been challengedto get in front of the Board, which I
think, you know, marketers may sometimesnot feel that they have their airtime
with the Board, you know, it's agreat way to establish communication.
Erica Seidel (08:31):
Hmm.
Yeah.
It's a great way to connect withthem outside of a Board meeting and-
Elana Anderson (08:35):
Exactly.
Erica Seidel (08:35):
And have them see you in action in another way.
Elana Anderson (08:39):
Exactly.
Erica Seidel (08:39):
Why do you think other CMOs don't think about doing this
and don't ask their Board members?
Like I've, I've interviewed a bunch ofpeople for this, and you're the first
one who has mentioned this as an angle.
Elana Anderson (08:52):
I think there's an intimidation factor.
I think, I think that, you know, insome cases people, CMOs may not feel
like they have the license to do it.
Um, they may not feelthat they have the access.
Maybe the CEO's, you know, a gatekeeper.
So I'd say ask, you know, it's a, uh, Ihave not, never had a no for an answer.
(09:14):
You know, maybe I've had, well, I'mnot available that day, but, uh, but
more often than not, Board membershave been thrilled to, to participate.
Erica Seidel (09:22):
How else have they participated?
Like, even in small ways, how else haveyou bought them into your, you know, kind
of day to day as a, as a marketing leader?
Elana Anderson (09:30):
Yeah, so in my last company I had, uh, one of our Board
members was really expert sort of on thepartner ecosystem, you know, and he was
more than happy to sit down with me andthe partner team, you know, engage in
a detailed dialogue in that, you know.
More than happy to, um, cons, youknow, be consultative with us in terms
(09:51):
of who, how we were prioritizing therelationships that we were building.
Erica Seidel (09:56):
Did you ever tap a Board member to interview somebody?
Like say you were interviewing for apartner, marketing, I don't know, VP
on your team, would you have tapped theBoard member to interview that person?
Elana Anderson (10:08):
I haven't done that.
That's a good idea.
I have gotten referrals fromBoard members, certainly.
And also, um, now that you mentionedit, I've, you know, again, both ways,
if I've had a question, um, I've been inp-backed companies and another company
in the portfolio had already gone throughsomething that we were going through, or
(10:31):
about to go through, and I was introducedto the CMO, you know, from that company
and had some great dialogue and lessonslearned from, from that individual.
And I've had the same,you know, same vice versa.
You know, I've had other CMOs from theportfolio engage with me, you know, and,
(10:51):
and, uh, learn from my, you know, from,from the things that I've been through.
Erica Seidel (10:55):
Yeah.
Elana Anderson (10:55):
So it's a great, you know, it's a great, uh, the
Board can be a great networking, youknow, venue, you know, way to meet
other people as well, avenue, yeah.
Erica Seidel (11:05):
When, when you've seen marketers switch from one size company
to the next, and when you yourself,has- have made those switches, how
do you need to adapt your approachwith working with the Board?
Elana Anderson (11:16):
Well, so public Boards have a bit more formality.
You know, there's a formal structure.
They've got their audit committee, thegovernance committee, the comp committee.
You know, and that's a,that's a, a structure-
Erica Seidel (11:29):
Yeah.
Elana Anderson (11:29):
that they have to follow.
But, you know, honestly, I've found thatin larger companies, so companies that,
you know, may be PE-backed, but they'reof a size that could be public, or maybe
they're, you know, they're looking to gopublic and in the not-too-distant future,
they tend to behave like public companies.
(11:51):
And I've had that conversationat the exec team level.
Um, particularly if you'relooking to go public, you wanna be
emulating those behaviors anyway.
Erica Seidel (12:00):
Mm-hmm.
Elana Anderson (12:00):
You know, so you might have even similar
committees on the Board and, uh,very similar, you know, structured
reporting process with the Board.
You know, similar process for how you're,you know, recording the minutes, you know,
for the Board and all of those things.
So, honestly, you know, if I compareof similar size public and private
(12:23):
companies, they operated verysimilarly, um, from a Board perspective.
Now there was all this reporting thatwe had to do as a public company.
That's not really the Board stuff, butthere's all kinds of stuff you still
ha- you have to do as a marketing,you know, as a CMO that you don't
have to do in a private company.
But, uh, that's, youknow, not the Board stuff.
(12:43):
You know, so the differences, Iwould say, you know, in terms of
interaction are, you know, I've,I've certainly seen smaller VC-backed
companies that are much more casual.
You know, I, I work now, I'm doing a lotof advisory work with smaller companies,
you know, and you may just have a coupleof investors on the Board and the CEO and
the founder or something like that, andthey may be more, they tend towards, some
(13:08):
are informal, some are very informal.
You know, it depends howmany investors there are.
Typically, the more in, you know, ifthere are multiple investors, maybe they
have a more formal structure becauseyou're, you know, dealing with, you
know, multiple, you know, you're dealingacross multiple investor companies.
Um, so they may have a more formalizedstructure if it's very closely held,
(13:28):
one investor, you know, and a founder.
It can be very loosey-goosey.
So I, you know, I think it reallydepends on, on those factors.
Um, but when they're very large, I,they tend to be more similar than not.
Erica Seidel (13:42):
If a CMO is at a company where the Board is one of these
loosey-goosey, you know, VC, you know,small VC, you know, situation, how
much would you recommend that theyimpose more formality and structure,
even if they're not asked for it?
Elana Anderson (13:58):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I was at a company that wasn't thatsmall actually, but it was, you know,
didn't have some of the formal structuresthat I have seen in other companies.
Um, for example, you know, we didn'thave, here are what our corporate
objectives are for the year andhere's how we're reporting on those
corporate objectives to the Board,you know, to the company, et cetera.
(14:21):
You know, so, I stepped in, in thatcase and, you know, worked across the
executive team to say, what are, youknow, what are the corporate objectives?
Let's write them down.
Let's, you know, let'sreport them to the Board.
You know, let's reportthem to the company.
Let's, you know, define howwe're going to measure them.
You know, I, I think if you see agap like that, there is certainly an
(14:45):
opportunity to step in and fill that gapand, you know, in, in that particular
organization, you know, I do think it,the, the, the chairman in that case
of our Board did recognize, you know,that I was stepping in and doing that.
And, you know, um, he laterengaged me in some strategic
initiatives for the company.
Erica Seidel (15:06):
Now, is there a difference in terms of CMO interactions with
the Board as a company scales, andcan you, can you talk through those?
You know, so, because a lot of, a lot ofpeople are with these scale-ups that are
going from, I don't know, 10 million to50 million, or 50 million to a 100 million
in ARI, or a 100 million to 500 million.
(15:26):
What have you seen when you're like,not going from one company to the next,
but, but within a company as it scales?
Elana Anderson (15:33):
I think my interactions have shifted less given scale
and more given what the strategicpriorities are at any given time.
You know, so if the strategic priority,you know, of the, of the business is
about modernizing the technology, it'slikely that the Chief Product Officer,
you know, is gonna be spending the timeon the hot seat, you know, with the
(15:56):
Board rather than, you know, ratherthan the Chief Marketing Officer.
Now, if the chief, uh, if, if thestrategic priority on the other hand
is, is about growth or fending off thecompetition, or you know, some other
go-to-market topic, then you know,I know it's much more likely that
I'm gonna be in the hot seat or, youknow, I and the, uh, the Chief Revenue
Officer are gonna be in the hot seat.
(16:17):
But I think, I do think, though,that regardless of the scale,
um, of the company, the CMOneeds to focus on objectives, on
outcomes, on critical metrics.
You know, some, sometimes marketersare over enamored, you know,
about, what they do rather thanthe outcomes that they drive.
(16:39):
You know?
And I think particularly with the Board,you know, it's about the destination.
It's not about the journey.
The journey really only matters whenthere's something that significantly
new, you know, significantly newlessons that you learned along the way.
Whether those lessons were good lessons,lessons that you wanna repeat, you know,
or, or lessons that, you know, you triedsomething, you know, and it didn't work.
(17:04):
I think they only care about thatjourney when there's something major
that you learned along the way.
Erica Seidel (17:10):
Why is it, do you think, that people get enamored of
the journey and not the destination?
It's very well said, by the way.
Elana Anderson (17:17):
Well, you know, I, I think we, um, we do a lot in marketing.
There's a lot of stuff that happensunder the covers in marketing.
And, um, at the end of the day, whatdoes the Board really care about is,
well, how did that impact sales, right?
You know, and, and there's so much workthat goes into it, you know, you wanna
(17:37):
get, you wanna talk about all thatwork that you did, but, uh, you know, I
think, frankly, we gotta get over that.
Erica Seidel (17:44):
[Small chuckle] Yeah, other people on the podcast have talked about
this, uh, that, that a lot of marketers,especially maybe when they're early to
being CMOs, they will want to say, oh,this is how I've been spending my time.
Elana Anderson (18:00):
Yeah.
Erica Seidel (18:00):
As opposed to this is the output of it, and that's, that's it.
That's enough.
Right.
Elana Anderson (18:05):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
You know, marketing, it's a, um, there'sa lot, you know, if you compare to the
other, you know, other functions, there'sso many intricate pieces in, in marketing,
but I, I think that, you know, you'rein the job as CMO, you know, because
they thought you knew how to do the job.
(18:26):
You know, so nobody needs toknow all those, all, all those
little details, you know?
Erica Seidel (18:30):
Mm-hmm.
Elana Anderson (18:31):
And I think if you know how to net it out and talk
about, you know, again, the, thelessons learned are very interesting
out of the major things that youdid that did or didn't, didn't work.
Erica Seidel (18:41):
Mm-hmm.
Elana Anderson (18:42):
That, that is interesting to a Board, I found, because those
are the things that they're gonnatell their other companies that, you
know, they're on the Boards of, youknow, that, that does get interesting.
In addition to the outcomes.
Erica Seidel (18:55):
So you've interviewed for a bunch of different CMO roles in the
course of your career, and presumablyyou've interviewed with Board members.
And I'm wondering, like, how,what, what should a uh, somebody
interviewing with a Board member fora CMO role, what should they expect?
How should they prepare?
Any thoughts there?
Elana Anderson (19:13):
I think for every exec role I've had, I've interviewed
with one or more Board members.
You know, honestly I prepare for them justlike I prepare for any, any interview.
I try to learn as much aboutthe individual as possible.
I start with their LinkedIn profile.
Uh, some Board members particularly,uh, you know, older ones may
not have a LinkedIn profile, butuh, you know, I researched the
(19:35):
companies that they worked for.
You know, you can usually find a lot onGoogle or you know, if, you know, if they
be movers and things like that you canfind a lot of information about people.
I look for articles.
So I, I try to get a, learn as muchas I can about them personally and
how, you know, how they operateand you know, what they know.
(19:55):
You know, and then what I said beforeabout outcomes is, is super important.
I don't expect to talk deepmarketing, you know, shop talk
with a, with a Board member.
You know, I've, I've, uh, again,I've yet to find many who are deeply
interested, you know, in the details.
So I tend to focus on talking aboutstrategy, um, strategy, the company,
(20:17):
um, the market, you know, themarket trends, um, the competitive
trends, the competitive landscape.
Um, I talk about how I've movedthe needle, you know, in, in other
companies, how I've aligned teams.
You know, and when I talk about teams,you know, it's how you've, how I've
aligned, you know, the marketingteam, but not just the marketing team.
Because I think what's critical in anexecutive role is not just, you know,
(20:40):
how you manage your function, but howyou work as a business executive, uh,
you know, across the organization, right?
Erica Seidel (20:49):
And it's interesting, you're talking about going, like,
talking about how you manage across.
I always, I, I, I think of this,like, framework of different
types of management, right?
So there's managing up, down, you know,like people work for you, inward, across,
like across the organization, and thenout, you know, like, like partners or
people like outside of the organization.
And in my experience, I've found that,you know, the best people are strong at
(21:12):
managing as many of those as possible.
And usually people have strengthsin some areas and less in others.
And you're right, as a CMO,sometimes people make the
mistake of being too siloed in-
Elana Anderson (21:23):
Yeah
Erica Seidel (21:24):
in how they describe their experience.
And so I like that, that aspect of youas like the chief, kind of, diplomacy
officer or something like, you know, thechief shuttle diplomat within the company.
Elana Anderson (21:35):
Yeah.
I think really reinforcing that pointof, you know, don't just, particularly
with a Board member, don't just gosort of down the marketing silo.
Make sure you're focusingacross, you know, across and out.
Yeah.
Erica Seidel (21:46):
Yeah.
Now an interview is a two-way street,and you're right that the, the
strongest interviews are ones whereyou don't get intimidated and you're
having a peer-to-peer dialogue.
So a CMO is also looking for a company tojoin and wanting to make sure that that's
gonna be a place where they can flourish.
So how should they interview a Board?
(22:07):
Like what clues should they lookfor to know that a Board would be-
a Board member or, or, you know,a Board would be a, a, you know, a
good one to kind of sign up with?
Elana Anderson (22:17):
Yeah, and I'm a, I'm also, uh, interviewing the Board
member, so to speak, to, you know, geta better sense of the company and the
culture and the opportunity, how muchthey believe in the company as well.
I always love to find out whatthey know about the market, the
competition, what they think theunique advantage of the company is.
(22:38):
And I think if they're able to answerthose questions, that gives the incoming,
you know, CMO, uh, a sense of how strongthe company's story resonates, right?
If, if you don't hear a crisp storyaround the unique advantage of the
company, then you, I've got some workto do, you know, on the messaging.
I also ask how I, I shouldexpect to work with them.
(23:00):
You know, and if they have an interestingbackground, I go, I start right there
and ask about if they're willing tosupport those marketing activities.
So, you know, start early on that count.
Erica Seidel (23:10):
That's great.
Now let me drill into something you said.
You wanna see how much theybelieve in the company.
How do you get at that?
Elana Anderson (23:17):
Well, I think that's, that's where, you know, I'm
asking about their understandingof the market and the unique
advantage, you know, of the company.
So why, why is this company going to win?
What makes them unique?
Erica Seidel (23:31):
Mm-hmm.
Elana Anderson (23:32):
What is the outlook for the company?
You know, why, why is this companygonna win over competitor X, Y, Z?
If competitor X, Y, Z might be a leader,and you know, the company's not a le-
not a leader, you know, it gives, gi-gives me a sense of a, how much they
believe and also how strong the messagingfor the company, for the business is.
Erica Seidel (23:51):
Hmm.
And it also shows that you'vedone your homework on the other
competitors and you're, you're kindof coming up with a bit of a, like
a pre-baked perspective, right?
You're asking for their perspective,but it seems like you've done enough of
your homework to, to have your own, tostart to have your own you on things.
Elana Anderson (24:07):
The company, the market, the competitive.
Yeah.
Erica Seidel (24:10):
Yeah.
Right, right, right.
Exactly.
Now, I know some people, when theyprepare for a company- for, for an
interview, they do like a kind ofcheat sheet, you know, kind of thing.
I'm remembering from business school,we all had these cheat sheets on
like, you know, five examples of, uh,you know, I don't know, increasing
revenue and, you know, three examplesof competitive differentiation.
Like, would that be useful, do youthink for somebody interviewing, for,
(24:33):
um, interviewing with a Board member?
Elana Anderson (24:35):
It would.
Have I done it?
No, it's a great, it's a good advice.
Um, I, I, well, I, you know, that's, Ido have my sort of little cheat sheets
of things that I've, I've, uh, how I'veincreased value at company A, company
B, company C, that sort of thing.
I do think it's a great,I, uh, a good idea.
I tend to be probably less structured,I suppose, in, in terms of how I
(25:00):
approach an interview like that.
You know, I do a lot of reading, butI don't, I don't come with a set of
notes, but, uh, but I do, you know,particularly if you're on video, which a
lot of the, uh, a lot of the interviewswith Board members tend to be, you know,
it's a good, it's a good thing to have.
Erica Seidel (25:19):
Right.
And it, but it's interesting cuz youcan have your notes, it's good to
have the notes, right, and whetheryou're in person or on video.
But you don't wanna seem likeyou're reliant on your notes.
Elana Anderson (25:29):
No.
Yeah.
Erica Seidel (25:30):
You need to be able to have that.
And it's the same for interviewing for aCMO job when you're interviewing the CEO.
Elana Anderson (25:35):
Absolutely.
Having a, being natural,having a se- seamless dialogue.
You know, not feeling nervous, youknow, not, not appearing nervous.
Absolutely.
You know, you wanna be natural, you wantit to flow, you know, certainly the larger
the company, if it's a public company,you know, if it's a public company, you're
likely, you know, gonna be a face of thebusiness, you know, in many situations.
(25:55):
And, you know, for a CMO to becalm, cool, and collected, and,
you know, uh, in, in that kind ofsituation is incredibly important.
Erica Seidel (26:06):
So you are now, um, in discussions with companies about Board
roles for yourself after having allthese awesome CMO roles in different
companies and different experiences.
So for marketers who anticipate beingin your shoes one day, you know, what
should they expect and, and what are youlearning about, you know, joining a Board?
Elana Anderson (26:26):
Well, so you should expect it to be a process.
It's gonna take a lot of time.
It's gonna take a lot ofnetworking and a lot of time.
Unless you have an incredible strokeof luck, um, you're likely gonna start
with smaller companies, uh, privatecompanies, you know, and then you'll
(26:48):
work your way towards larger privatecompanies, public companies, um, someday.
You know, if, if you're, uh, you shouldconsider, if you haven't already, you
should join a, consider joining anadvisory Board now and add some of
that or, or more than one, add someof that experience to your profile.
(27:10):
You know, I also, you shouldstart sooner than later.
If your growth path is towards Boardwork, then you should engage your
boss and your current Board to helpyou secure your first Board role now.
And in some companies, you know,that might be controversial.
(27:31):
Um, I was in a session a coupleweeks ago, um, with Chris
Comparato, who's the CEO of Toast.
And you know, he was saying that, youknow, several years ago, he, he didn't
want his execs to be on Boards, andnow he's completely changed his mind,
um, because it's such great experience.
(27:51):
And, you know, I think back to companiesthat, you know, I've been at and, you
know, you do this annual survey every,every year and the individuals in the
company that tend to be least satisfiedwith their growth, um, their growth and
development are senior execs, because, youknow, and I know I felt this way to some
(28:13):
extent too, like what's my growth plan?
I don't have one, you know?
I'm not gonna get promoted, you know,you know, I can take on more things in
special projects and always did that.
But you know, so I think for a lot ofpeople in the executive suite, that
Board work is a great growth plan.
And so sitting down and working withyour boss and talking about, well,
(28:37):
how do you, you know, how can you worktogether to secure that first Board role.
I wish I had been more aggressiveabout doing that myself.
I wish I had carved outmore time to do that.
I didn't feel like Ihad the time, you know?
I regret that, regret that now, so Ican't recommend that highly enough.
(29:01):
And there are also some great preparatory,um, programs out there, you know, to help,
particularly for DEI candidates, you know.
Um, if you're in Massachusetts, in theBoston area, Mass TLC has this great
program called the Board Ready Bootcamp.
I've sent folks who worked for me to it inthe past, worked for me to it in the past.
(29:22):
Um, they run it twice a year.
Deloitte has a regional programthat they run once a year.
You know, there's tons oflists and that sort of thing.
There's the Athena Alliance.
There's like, there's so manyprograms that, um, you know,
that are out there that, youknow, to help you sort of prepare
yourself, um, for, for that future.
Erica Seidel (29:44):
That's great.
And is branding yourselffor Board any different than
branding yourself for a CMO role?
Elana Anderson (29:51):
Well, you know, I think I, you know, I'm a firm believer in your
brand as your, you know, your, your brand.
Be authentic, be, you know, be yourself,be, you know, all those things.
But I do think it's very important whenyou're positioning yourself, you know,
I'll use that term instead of brand, whenyou're positioning yourself for Board
work, you know, you're shifting from, youknow, as the CMO, you owned it, right?
(30:14):
You delivered it, you execute it.
You know, the big shift hereto, to Board is, you know,
you're now in an advisory seat.
You know, you're now leveraging allthat experience you have to advise.
You don't own it.
You can't tell companies what to do.
You can give examples.
You can make suggestions.
(30:35):
You can make connections.
Uh, you're advising.
I'm fortunate, you know, we worked atForrester together as, as an analyst.
You know, I did a lot of advisorywork, you know, for lots of companies,
you know, so I, I have a lot of thatbackground, you know, in my history.
Um, so I'm fortunate, you know, it'svery relevant to, to Board work.
(30:57):
I also think that it's importantto, um, to target companies.
You don't wanna just try tobe a Board member anywhere.
Um, you wanna try to target companiesthat are really relevant, you
know, for you, for your background.
So you know, for example, you know, ifyou have deep expertise in product-led
growth, then go and find a companythat is maybe focused on an enterprise
(31:24):
sales motion, but they're trying toshift to product-led growth because
they really need your expertise, right?
They're not a product-ledgrowth company today.
They're trying to make this shift.
So that expertise, you know, wouldbe tremendously helpful to them.
That sort of thing may, you know, maybeit's a, you know, maybe it's an industry
expertise, you know, that sort of thing.
(31:44):
Maybe you're a known personality intheir industry, you know, so you have
to figure out what your, you know,what your hook is, so to speak, if,
uh, you know, if you're, you know,gonna try to be an independent Board
member at a particular company.
Erica Seidel (32:00):
Thank you so much for joining the show, Elana, this has
been fabulous speaking with you.
Elana Anderson (32:04):
Likewise.
Yeah, really fun.
Thanks for, thanks for inviting me.
Erica Seidel (32:08):
Now that you have heard from Elana, think about how you can
put your Board members to work asadjunct members of the marketing team.
Next time on The Get you'llhear from Sandra Lopez.
You'll hear about how to put your bestfoot forward when you interview with a
Board, about managing expectations withthe Board on how long things take in
marketing, and about nonprofit Boardsas a segue to for-profit Board work.
(32:31):
Don't miss it.
Thanks for listening to The Get.
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
The Get is here to drive smartdecisions around recruiting and
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
We explore the trends, tribulations,and triumphs of today's top
marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
If you liked thisepisode, please share it.
(32:52):
For more about The Get,visit thegetpodcast.com.
To learn more about my executive searchpractice, which focuses on recruiting the
make-money marketing leaders rather thanthe make-it-pretty ones, follow me on
LinkedIn or visit theconnectivegood.com.
The Get is produced by Evo Terraof Simpler Media Productions.
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