April 27, 2023 • 34 mins
Listen to the honest dialogue between a CMO and her Board member, who have managed to forge a fruitful partnership together. Jen Pockell Dimas is Chief Marketing and Experience Officer for Telarus, the global technology solutions brokerage. Evan DeCorte from Columbia Capital is a Telarus Board member.
You'll hear about:
- How investors can have reptilian brains – focusing uniquely on Big V value: getting more value for the business than they paid for it
- How to translate marketing-speak into investor-speak
- How to set yourself up for a successful standing with the Board from the interview process onward: "Invest in the relationship before you even accept the job so you are on the same page for expectations."
- How to react when a Board member suggests a marketing direction that feels like a firedrill
- Why asking how Board meeting prep could be shorter is 'the wrong question to ask'
- A simple framing that will help as you prep your board meetings
Key Links
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenpd/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/evan-decorte-8086029
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The Get is here to drive smart decisions around recruiting and leadership in B2B SaaS marketing. We explore the trends, tribulations, and triumphs of today’s top marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
This season’s theme is the CMO and Board Relationship in B2B SaaS.
The Get’s host is Erica Seidel, who runs The Connective Good, an executive search practice with a hyper-focus on recruiting CMOs and VPs of Marketing, especially in B2B SaaS.
If you are looking to hire a CMO or VP of Marketing of the ‘make money’ variety - rather than the ‘make it pretty’ variety, contact Erica at erica@theconnectivegood.com. You can also follow Erica on LinkedIn or sign up for her newsletter at TheConnectiveGood.com.
The Get is produced by Evo Terra and Simpler Media Productions.
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erica Seidel (00:03):
Hello, and welcome to The Get.
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
This season we examine therelationship between CMOs and Boards.
How can that relationship gofrom fraught to functional,
and maybe even to fantastic?
Today's episode is special.
I've invited a CMO and her Boardmember together to talk, not just
(00:23):
about each other, but with each other.
You'll see what a good partnership lookslike in an actual CMO Board member pair.
We talk with Jen Dimas, the ChiefMarketing and Experience Officer
of Telarus, and Evan DeCorte,a Board member from Columbia
Capital, which backs Telarus.
Some things to listen for, realizeinvestors have reptile brains.
(00:44):
They are focusing on Big V versusLittle V value, so you as a CMO will
need to do some context switching.
Jen offers a guide for that.
You'll learn what to do startingduring your interview process to set
yourself up for a successful standingwith the Board, and you'll learn a
simple framing that will help youas you prepare your Board meetings.
(01:05):
Before we get started, a quickdisclaimer as requested by
Evan's friends in Compliance.
Evo Terra (01:10):
This interview should not be considered investment
advice or a solicitation to invest.
And the views and opinions expressedherein are those of the speakers and
do not necessarily reflect the views orpositions of any entities they represent.
Erica Seidel (01:24):
Let's go.
Welcome to the next session of The Get.
This season, as we know, is allabout the CMO Board relationship,
and I thought, what better than tohave a CMO and one of their Board
members together for this podcast?
So for this one, we welcome JenDimas, who is the Chief Marketing
(01:46):
and Experience Officer for Telarus.
And Telarus is a globaltechnology solutions brokerage.
And I actually placed Jen in her role.
It was a really fun search.
And I worked alongside EvanDeCorte from Columbia Capital.
He is our other guest.
He is, uh, a Board member for Telarusand is representing that perspective.
They are a PE entity that backs Telarus.
(02:07):
So let us get started.
Um, I would love to know, the two ofyou just seem to get along really well,
and as we have talked about before, youhave a pretty strong Board partnership
and sometimes the CMO and Boardpartnership can be a little fraught.
So what makes your partnership specialcompared to other, uh, kind of, uh,
(02:29):
dyads of CMO and Board members thatyou have seen or been a part of?
Maybe Jen, we'll start with you?
Jen Pockell Dimas (02:35):
I think part of the reason our, uh, relationship is
so strong and functional is becausewe were just really, we, we're
both kind of transparent humans.
So when we first met, we both sortof just laid all the cards on the
table about what was going on.
Evan was really clean and clear whatwas necessary in the role, what he had
observed during diligence, uh, looking atTelarus as an investment opportunity and
(02:57):
kind of had done a ton of research andhad a really strong thesis of what was
necessary for the company moving forward.
And he also knew what he didn't know.
He's like, I think I need this thing,but tell me something different.
Um, this is what I see in the market.
This is what I see as an opportunity.
There happened to be a great overlap withwhat was necessary and what I'm good at.
And I think we had a nice developmentof our relationship just because we
(03:18):
both say things that we're good at,things that we, uh, we, things that
we know, things that we don't knowand we're, um, honest with each other.
Evan DeCorte (03:25):
It's really, for me, it's about transparency.
It, I think it's hard to develop ameaningful and productive relationship
if you can't be straightforwardabout, you know, what you need
and want and what you expect.
And, and also it's being receptiveto beat back and hearing from the
company and its executives what theydidn't want from us as, as investors.
And, and then there can be a temptationfrom the Board to treat it as a one-way
(03:48):
street to, to sort of dictate outcomes.
And it turns out that's actuallynot, not really how it works.
Um, people build businesses and, andwe're part of that conversation, but
I think ultimately we're facilitators.
And so if you don't, if you don't cometo that table with that approach, right,
and you think you can sort of just tellpeople what to do instead building a
business with them and alongside them,you're gonna set yourself up for, for
(04:10):
trouble and a lot of disappointment.
Erica Seidel (04:12):
Jen, you mentioned Evan and you got to know each other
through the recruiting process.
And I know Evan, you and I workedtogether along with the CEO of
Telarus for the recruiting of Jen.
Is that, is that unusual?
Jen Pockell Dimas (04:24):
It's not unusual at all.
I've always met with at least aBoard member, um, during recruitment
for a marketing leadership role.
And frankly, I'd be really concerned ifthat wasn't part of the conversation.
If I, I would have requested ithad it not happened organically.
But it's a very important relationship.
The, the executive team in general,delivering on the promise to their
(04:45):
investors, that's a big deal.
And so knowing what the dynamic is thereand understanding that relationship
is incredibly important to, to beable to set yourself up for success.
So, no, I don't think it's unusual.
I think what was unusual hereis just how well-aligned we all
were and like how quickly weestablished fluency with each other.
Erica Seidel (05:03):
Yeah.
My take on having investors in,involved in searches is, I'd rather
have somebody who is helping be achef at the beginning of a process
than being like the restaurantcritic and at the end of a process.
So sometimes I've done searches wherean investor comes in way at the end and
they're like, oh, thumbs up, thumbs down.
And it's not as helpful as ifthey're kind of involved early on.
Jen Pockell Dimas (05:27):
There's, there's something else I just wanted to say, um,
Erica, that I think is, is special here.
Because Evan and Columbia had done suchincredibly thorough work on diligence
about Telarus, like they really understoodthe market in which Telarus is operating.
So they had really strong opinions aboutwhat could be done and what was necessary.
And so I think it's a, it was importantthat they were at the table, like
(05:50):
they saw the market opportunityfor doing things differently.
And they knew that, that doingthis right was gonna be a real
lever for success of the org.
And so I'm glad they were so involvedand they were really well informed.
Erica Seidel (06:02):
Evan, I'm gonna actually ask you this, like what do Boards want
from a CMO and what don't they want?
Evan DeCorte (06:08):
I think what we don't want is hand waving.
As I sort of think about it, it's likea lot of vagueries and, and talk like
big talk about what could be or thethings that are in motion and what things
maybe should look like in the future.
But it's hard to know.
I mean, I think Erica, you, you sortpoint out and say this all the time, but
like we have very simple reptile brains.
(06:29):
We are investors, right?
And our, our goal is to invest money inthe company and then to sell or recap as a
business some way and get money back out.
And our goal is to have that pileof money at the end be a lot bigger
than the pile at the beginning.
And so a lot of what we are focusedon is what is the result of the
actions that you're taking as a CMO?
(06:49):
How do they intersect with thestrategy of the overall business?
And how do they correlatewith value creation?
I, I think as investors we can probably,we're probably pretty thoughtful
about function and we maybe havesome thoughts on sales and operation.
I think it's a rare investor thatis, uh, you know, a marketing
expert that probably approachesnearly 0% of the, of the population.
(07:11):
And so we just need things in many waysthink brought back to the basics, which is
we are doing X and here's how it aligns tothe plan and here's how it creates value.
If you can sort of link all of thosepoints in a clean way, you're gonna
have a very easy conversation withthe Board and the investor syndicate.
I think where conversations breakdown is pointing to activity and
(07:33):
describing the value it will createwithout either data or, uh, an
obvious linkage to a strategic plan.
You know, activity doesn'tcreate value necessarily.
Some activity does, but, but not all.
And so then confusing lots of movingpieces and lots of activity for
the process of sort of building thebusiness like that, that's, I think,
where things get a little shaky.
Erica Seidel (07:54):
I love this reptilian brain concept.
I find that so hilarious and soaccurate, and I, uh, thank you
for, thank you for saying that.
So it seems like, and Evan is, I mean, Ithink you're, you're right, I heard the
stat the other day that fewer than 5% ofBoard members have marketing backgrounds.
So it's, as you say, it'skind of like approaches zero.
(08:17):
So it seems to me that investorsare asking for CMOs to kind
of context switch for them.
It's not like the Board membersare not going to context
switch for marketing leaders.
So, Jen, I'm curious, there isthis kind of translation between
here's what I'm doing and, andhow value gets created here.
So can you talk more about thatcontext switching and, and also
(08:40):
like why is it incumbent upon youto do it if you believe that it is?
Jen Pockell Dimas (08:45):
Uh, well, yes, I do think it is important for me to
be able to speak to the value thatI'm driving in the business in a way
that our investors would care about.
Uh, a hundred percent Ibelieve that's important.
And I think, um, one of the ways thatEvan and I sometimes talk about this
is "Big V value" and "Little V value."
And I think the Little V value, a lotof times people are really attached to
(09:05):
that, like that's the, what am I doingtoday that helps to drive pipeline and
like the things that I'm measuring onthe daily, weekly, monthly to say I
am doing these activities and they'recreating value in the business.
It would be easy - it's not easy,by the way, lots of people aren't
comfortable with that kind of aconversation or that flow, but that's
not - Evan does care about that.
Believe me, he cares about pipelineand booking that are happening.
(09:28):
What Evan cares about is the thing hetold you about five minutes ago when
he said, I put some money in and threeto five years from now, I want it to
be more money that I'm getting out.
That's Big V value.
So it's a really, it has beenhard in B2B marketing historically
to draw a direct line from theactivities that you're making to
the outcomes that they're driving.
But now we're actually talkingabout Big V value, the value of
(09:50):
this company, not just the value ofthese marketing activities that I'm
driving, this, this my contribution topipeline, whatever those things are.
This is about how am I increasingthe value of this company in market?
And that is not a conversationthat is necessarily one that many
are comfortable or fluent in, andthat's the code switching that needs
to happen between the operationalplan and how I'm executing today.
(10:13):
That's also important, by the way,and Evan cares a ton about that, too.
But how am I changing the program that I'mrunning, the team, the, um, the efforts
where I'm investing in order to increasethat Big V value for the company at large.
Erica Seidel (10:26):
Can you say more about that Big V value?
Like when you're at a Boardmeeting, what does that look like
when you are describing that?
Can you say like, oh, the, the valueof the company just went up X percent?
Jen Pockell Dimas (10:38):
I wish I could do that.
That would be cool, but no, that, that'swhy part of this is hard is this, that's
the hardest thing to measure, right?
In marketing, the, the easiest thing tomeasure, which honestly years ago you
couldn't even do this is I did theseactivities, I created this pipeline.
Right?
Those are, those are the, thekinds of things that you can
draw straight lines to now.
Even those things used to be difficult.
(10:59):
But in terms of value creationof a brand or a category that's
really squishy and difficult.
If you're not spend, if you'renot spending tons of money on a
share of voice, share a wallet,what's going on out there?
And for a company in our stageof growth, those kinds of, um,
studies don't make any sense.
Um, and by the way, even if youspent hundreds of thousands of
dollars to do those studies infive minutes, that data would old.
(11:19):
So it, it's not a goodinvestment to do those studies
to understand your Big V value.
But in our particular case, we haveunderstandings about how we want this
company to be understood and valuedand what new markets we want to open.
And we'll be able to see that we'rehaving success there because we will
begin to create revenue in new directions.
We will open up, uh, we willsee consistency in, uh, bookings
(11:43):
creation, in, in directionswe haven't seen historically.
Maybe into a new geo, maybe anew, new product offering, maybe
in a new revenue source that wehadn't considered historically.
Those kinds of thingswould increase our value.
The squishy ways that this would showup, and every marketer hates this, but
one of the things that we knew was achallenge here is our own customers saying
to us, "Oh, I didn't know you did that."
(12:06):
That breaks every marketer's heart.
We don't want that.
So addressing those kinds of things,those are, those are the squishy
things that are hard to measure, right?
How do we make sure that where weare understood, um, where we are in
the consideration set of our futurecustomers, that that is, that market
is expanding, and that more folksare understanding the ways that
Telarus can drive value for them.
Erica Seidel (12:26):
So, Evan, let me ask you, if Jen or a different marketing leader
from a different port co brought upthese kind of squishy things, which
it's, it's, I don't know if I would saysquishy, but kind of like directional
things, like in a Board meeting.
So, for instance, people are, are notsaying that they, um, knew that such and
such a company did X, Y, Z, like, do youthink that's valid for a Board meeting?
Evan DeCorte (12:50):
It's very rarely the case in a complex operating business that you
have one-to-one correlations everywhereacross the company where you can directly
tie specific actions to specific outcomes.
Right?
And so this idea that we're gonnahave perfect knowledge, it's like,
I don't really think it makes sense.
And it seems like an impossible goal.
In many ways, I, I think the Boardmeeting, and this is not exactly what
(13:13):
you asked, but I think the Board meetingand the, and the conversation in the
Boardroom can act as like a bit of aforcing function to, to cause all of the
executives in the business to stop andreflect on this very specific operational
activities that they've been carryingout and ask how does this create value?
Right?
Why are we doing these things?
How do we know that they are successful?
(13:35):
And sometimes we can, all we can do isget a sense where we're directionally
correct and like, that's okay.
I think what, what doesn't work,though, and where I think really, I
don't think it should be a, a questionof, of code switching where marketers
think about marketing things andinvestors think about investment things.
We are united in a common goal, right?
(13:57):
Which is creating, creating value forthe employees, for the shareholders,
and creating valuable business.
If we don't look at the, all of ouractivities through that lens, I, I think
we've sort of failed the enterprise.
And so I, I just, I think in areally simple example, right?
Every CMO in our portfoliois a shareholder, right?
I mean, either through amanagement incentive plan or direct
(14:19):
ownership, they participate inthe value that's being created.
And I don't actually thinkthat that the worlds are too,
they're, they're too different.
It's just where you focus andwhere you apply your efforts.
Erica Seidel (14:29):
Evan, is there something that you admit that you
don't understand about marketingthat you'd be willing to share?
Evan DeCorte (14:37):
I don't know anything about marketing.
I mean, like, there's not like,like so many things I don't know.
I mean, I, I don't even know, I don'teven know how start answering that.
I mean, at, at one point in a, in alife long, long ago, I, I, I had some
marketing experience and like, I'mnot even sure I was very good at it.
And I wouldn't even pretend to give,um, relevant operational advice.
(14:58):
Right?
I mean, I think the world in whichJen says, like, I'm, I'm thinking
about running this campaign and hereare the various ads in front of me.
What should you choose?
It's like, well, like that's verymisguided to ask me because like
what of worth could I tell you?
I think this just kind of goes back tolike what is the, what is the relationship
between the Board, the investorsyndicate, and the executive team?
(15:20):
It's, hey Jen, like showme with your track record.
Right?
So you've told me that you wanted topursue these things, that they would
be valuable in the past you did them.
What was the outcome?
I think that feedback loop is justas valuable when things are working
as it is when they're not working.
In fact, it's probably more valuablewhen it's not working right.
So, to the extent that we cansee team hypothesis test and then
(15:41):
course correct, that's great too.
We don't expect everyone to beright a hundred percent of the time.
What we, what we care about is thatwe're measuring the activity as best
we can and knowing that it's probablyimperfect at best, and then using
that data to inform our next action.
And so, I mean, I don't know, Jen,correct me if I'm wrong, but, like,
(16:03):
the number of times I've given any kindof meaningful, substantive advice in
the Board meeting around some specificmarketing tactic, like I, I probably
could count on one hand and everytime I gave it was probably wrong.
So our, our goal is notto be smart marketers.
That's why we recruit great peopleto work with our businesses.
So we don't, we don't have to do it.
We're getting involved it's becausesomething's gone horribly wrong.
Jen Pockell Dimas (16:23):
I do think now there was something, um, underneath what Evan
just said, that that has changed whomarketers are, who CMOs are, Erica,
and that is this preponderance ofdata that allows us to understand now
digital buying behavior, to be ableto see how people are engaging with
the brand and how they become engagedwhen they're in the consideration set.
(16:45):
What their purchase journey looks like.
What happens after.
Now that we can understand thesethings, it, we, we must, right?
Erica Seidel (16:51):
Mm-hmm.
Jen Pockell Dimas (16:52):
So what Evan didn't say is like, that's why he wants
data-driven marketers to help himbecause he speaks with his reptile brain.
He wants to understand, if I putin a dollar here, how many dollars
am I getting out on the other side?
And that's hard to do if you're talkingabout squishy, you know, arts and crafts
marketing, which that, that's why theprofile of who leads marketing has
(17:12):
changed so much because the data existsto be able to tell more informed stories.
And so that's why folks are lookingfor that profile from a leader today.
Erica Seidel (17:20):
So, Jen, let me ask you, we asked Evan what he wants from a CMO.
What do you want from a Boardand what don't you want?
Jen Pockell Dimas (17:29):
I love that they know what they know and
they know what they don't know.
Um, and they're just so that,that's super helpful because it
hasn't always been like that for me.
I'll, I'll be honest, like there area lot of people who read something
about marketing and, and then sendyou a note saying, you should do this
with your SEO strategy, or you shouldgo on Twitter and say these things.
There are a lot of people who sort of likeplay at operating, and that's not bad.
(17:50):
I mean, it's, you get goodideas from all over the place.
It's not a bad thing to have that, butit, it's really powerful to know where
you add value and where you don't.
Like Evan and I have had manyconversations about me understanding
his financial perspective on things andwhat good looks like and what success
looks like for the company and thingslike that so that we remain aligned.
So I like, I like that kind of openness.
(18:11):
I like that we have openchannels of communication.
Like that's another thing is Ilike ungated access to Board.
Uh, sometimes you have, uh,leadership that, that's really
protective of that relationship,and we don't have that at Telarus.
We are, we are allowed and encouragedto have direct relationships with Board
and I think that is really healthy.
So that's something that Iwould want is open access.
(18:33):
And feedback like when things are goingwell or when things aren't going well.
Just like Evan wants me to tell him,hey, I, I ran this play and oops,
that didn't work out well, so nowI'm gonna do it this way next time.
This is what I'm gonna change andthis is how, this is what I learned
and how I'm gonna do it differently.
I also want them to be like, hey,by the way, when you presented
information the following way is thisdid not, um, meet our expectations.
(18:53):
It would be better if it was likethis, and this is what I really meant
when I said I wanted this thing.
Like real open, honestfeedback is super helpful.
'Cause I've definitely had itwhere it's not that and that I've
been surprised by Board reactions.
So I think that that's sort ofme as a human, um, wanting that.
I want more open communication anyway.
And having that from aBoard is very important.
I, I believe I have that withEvan and with the rest of the
(19:15):
Columbia Capital Board, too.
Erica Seidel (19:17):
So Jen, what would be your advice to another CMO who is facing that
challenge that a Board member, you know,saw something, you know, like, oh, go
do this thing on Twitter, or, you know,why don't you, why don't you do X, Y, Z?
How, how would you advise them?
Jen Pockell Dimas (19:34):
Well, what I've said, I really believe.
Like good ideas come from anywhere.
So part of the guidance there islistening, uh, you know, being open-minded
to things, but the other part is to,it's an opportunity in some cases to
remind folks about what your prioritiesand where your areas of focus are.
So it, it would be great in, in, inthe case when someone came up with
a thing and said, "Hey, why don'tyou go do the thing over there?"
(19:55):
You could say, oh, that's a reallyinteresting idea, and remember this year
we're focused on these three priorities.
These are the things that myprograms are driving toward.
And I, we could, um, we could take someof our focus away to try that experiment,
but I'm not sure it would have thesame impact on the bottom line as these
things that we're doing or whatever.
Bringing information back to whatare the like top line objectives
(20:16):
that you're trying to drive throughthe business is one way to do that.
Because there's always a lot of ideasand keeping focused and, uh, and trying
things is good or, or keeping a carve outfor ex-experian, like, uh, experiment,
pardon me, is is also not a bad ideabecause there are often ideas that
come at you from lots of directionsand it's not a bad idea to try things.
Erica Seidel (20:36):
Right.
Evan DeCorte (20:36):
I actually think it's funny, like, I hadn't really thought about
it that way, but I, I do think framingthings for the investor or the Board
around this idea of constrained resources.
Like we only have so many people.
We have to pick the things thatwe're gonna do and we wanna
be best in the world at them.
In order for us to do that,this is what we have to do.
Like that, that is, that'slanguage that resonates, right?
So we, I always sort of ask peoplelike, what are you best in the world at?
(20:59):
What is the company best in the world at?
How do we do more of that thingand do less things you're not?
I think investors and finance folksunderstand this idea of constrained
resources and tradeoffs really well,but somehow, like when we talk with
the companies with which we invested,we have this expectation that people
do endless amounts of work with,you know, very limited resources.
And then there's also thisquestion about budget, right?
(21:21):
So we like the idea of endlesswork, but without endless budget.
And, and like turns out thoseare, like, contradictory ideas.
And so, you know, I think framing thepriorities around, you know, what we can
do well and what we need to focus on,I think is also, is always a, a helpful
way to ground and frame the conversation.
Erica Seidel (21:42):
Thank you.
So any tips on whenthings are not going well?
Evan, you brought this up earlier.
If, um, you know, say leads are down,conversion is suffering, a launch
falls flat, you know, you spend alot of money on a campaign and it
doesn't do, doesn't go anywhere.
Like, I'm curious from, from eitheror both of you, how should that change
how a CMO interacts with the Board?
Jen Pockell Dimas (22:02):
If you have the measurements in place, like
we were talking about, there'salways something that's out.
People don't buy the wayyou expect them to buy.
Buying trends change, things change.
Um, and so there's never gonnabe ever a time when you 100%
delivered on your promise.
So I think just being completely,first of all, managing expectations
that that's true is helpful.
Like if someone's expecting greenacross the Board and everything just
(22:25):
goes the way that they, uh, hopedit would, like, that's not rational.
It's probably not gonna go that way.
And we're probably not measuringthings appropriately if everything's
always looking up and to the right.
So what we're looking for are to have themechanisms in place that we can see when
things are out and that we can adjust.
So Evan just said, tell me early andoften when things aren't going right.
I would hope, Erica, never, I mean,not never, unless Evan wants me to,
(22:48):
but I'm not gonna be in the businessof talking to Evan about the messaging
that I have at the campaign level.
That's something, that'slike too small for him.
He doesn't care about those things.
What he cares about is the outcomein a bi- much bigger sense.
So he needs to believe that I'm trackingthe business in a way that I can
make adjustments, um, to my businessand ma- and make those outcomes.
And that, and that I need to beout and honest with what's going
(23:10):
really well and also with whatI'm, uh, working to correct.
And so some of that is me, um,actively managing expectations that
things will, will always be out.
And secondly, me, me showing thereds and the yellows too, not just
the greens when I'm communicatingwith the Board about what's going,
you know, how things are going.
Evan DeCorte (23:25):
I guess just what I wanna know is that, amongst the teams that
we back, there's enough willingness toreflect on what's going right and wrong.
Communicate those lessonsin, in an open and honest way
that we can have a dialogue.
What I think, I think when that breaksdown, I think you get a lot of, you get a
lot of commentary about, you know, Twittertactics from Board members who don't
(23:47):
know what they're talking about, right?
There's like some, some interestsare desired to assert control where
maybe they feel like they don'thave their arms around things.
And I think similarly, if teams don'tfeel like they have an understanding
where their investors sit and how they'rethinking about the world, then maybe they,
maybe they wanna hoard information too.
And like if, when you get to those,those are very dark places to get and
you really never, ever wanna be there.
(24:09):
And the only way to, to avoid itis just be open, honest, every
step, every step of the way.
Jen Pockell Dimas (24:14):
Your question, um, was about what to do in these cases.
So part of my guidance would be includethe Board in all of your interviews.
First of all, don't ever accept amarketing leadership position without
relationship development with thatBoard because you don't know what
you're walking into otherwise.
Like you're signing up for somethingthat you don't know what that's like.
And then manage that, um,relationship actively.
(24:35):
I can- earlier when leadership was lesscomfortable to me, when it was a newer
experience of leading the functions, Idon't know that I had the confidence to
push on that kind of thing as much andI didn't, um, and I didn't know that.
I don't think I developed theBoard relationships as much as I
should have, like looking back.
Um, and so there was an outbetween expectation and, uh,
(24:56):
delivery and things like that.
And I think that as I've moved on,like that's an incredibly important,
uh, relationship to invest in beforeyou even accept the job so that
you're on the same page about, um,expectations, but also certainly
to cultivate while you're in-seat.
Erica Seidel (25:09):
That, that makes a ton of sense.
Jen, you were mentioning, youknow, reds, yellows, and greens.
Um, which makes me wonder, what hasworked and what hasn't in terms of
structuring your Board presentations?
And relatedly, is there a way that you'veseen to not have Board meeting prep
take days of intensity and days of time?
Jen Pockell Dimas (25:30):
Well, your Board meeting content is
always incredibly important.
And I, I'm not even ayear in-seat at Telarus.
So if I am honest about how we'vemanaged our Board conversations
to date, it's not like I have a, arote package that I'm continuously
delivering to them every single time.
It's more complete updates to like,what are the strategic imperatives?
The first 120 days I was like sittingand looking and evaluating the business
(25:54):
and deciding what priorities were, andit was aligning on priorities and it
was restructuring and doing all that.
So there's been a lot of higherlevel updates, but my goal ultimately
when I get the business to whereit is, is to have more of a regular
package, which is data driven.
I have, at this point, um, developeda dashboard, but it, it is a dashboard
that I am just now reporting onregularly to the internal business.
(26:17):
It's not even Board ready.
Like, I'll, Evan, I could, I I wouldshow it to you in a private meeting right
now, but it's not consistent enough.
Um, I haven't had enough monthsin-seat, like measuring the same
things that I believe it's Board ready.
And so I think by partway throughthis year we'll be in that place,
Erica, where I'll have a more standardBoard reporting package where Evan
(26:37):
can be like, aha, these, this iswhat I expect to see from Jen.
Erica Seidel (26:41):
Evan, anything to add on how Board meeting prep can be less intensive?
Evan DeCorte (26:47):
I don't actually know if that's the right question.
Like, I mean, I think that the sortof frames Board meeting prep as like
eating, eating your vegetables, right?
Erica Seidel (26:53):
Yeah.
Evan DeCorte (26:53):
It's like what's the least painful way to do this?
It, it's, something's that's kindof a pain and it takes a lot time,
and could we be more efficient?
Because it, I, I think it treatsthe, the Board reporting as
perfunctory and as reporting.
And I think if that's the where youare, well then just send out the deck.
We don't need a Board meeting, right?
I mean, send some materials.
(27:14):
Tell me, show me the same thing everymonth or every quarter, whatever.
And we don't need to get togetherand burn up a bunch of time.
If that's what you're doing, I, I thinkBoard meetings, Board meetings probably
were being run pretty poorly, right?
It's not good use of everyone's time.
I think Board meeting prep takes timebecause it is, I think, for the business,
like a moment of self-reflection.
What have we done?
What were the outcomes?
What are we gonna do differently?
(27:35):
How does this impact our viewon strategy or the market?
And those are not alwayseasy questions to answer.
And if they are really easy, likeI, I might, might think it's time
for a little more self-reflection.
Right?
Because it, because they're, these arelike, it very rarely are the things
that we're doing, even in businessesthat are just really doing well, easy.
(27:56):
We face tough questions thattake time to grapple with, right?
We are conducting a lot of activitiesand hiring people and running new
strategies and evaluating them andmeasuring them against the alternatives.
Like those are complex questions.
Erica Seidel (28:09):
Yeah.
Evan DeCorte (28:10):
If the answer is obvious and easy, and it's the same every
quarter, like something's not working.
So I, I encourage the companies that wework with, and I think this, you know,
extends all the way to the marketingfunction to look at the Board meeting as a
way to just pause and to, to kind of thinkabout what you've been spending time on
and you know, what you wanna accomplishand, and what you have accomplished.
(28:32):
I think for, just given where Columbiainvests, a lot of times we'll get involved
in the business that maybe has actuallynever even had a formal Board meeting.
And I think there's sometimes a littlebit of, like, a allergic reaction idea.
We'll write all the things working downpiece of paper then talk about them.
But over time, I, I, I would saythe universal, in your universal
view from the executives that wepartner with, the Board meeting
(28:54):
itself is a highly valuable exercise.
It is not just to give anupdate to the investor group.
Jen Pockell Dimas (29:00):
It does force you to look with outside
eyes at your business, right?
'Cause you can get so in the weedson a regular day, to say, okay,
wait a minute, now I'm looking atthis from a different perspective.
Uh, what's the story?
How are things going?
And so I, I completely agree thatit, and, and also you wanna use
the Board for the guidance thatthey're good at giving you, right?
(29:20):
You wanna be able to say, these arethe things that are happening, and
ask them for the guidance, um, in theplaces where you need it or, or buy in
for the decisions that you're making.
If they, you know, like,this is my strategy.
This is something I learned, thisis what I'm gonna do differently.
Is this something you're familiar with?
Is this, does this make sense?
Like, use the Board formaking good decisions too.
Erica Seidel (29:38):
Right.
Evan DeCorte (29:39):
And I think, you know, the, the more informed we are, the
better we are at providing support.
And that support is not inthe form of, you know, this
marketing tactic versus that.
It's, hey Jen, like we haveten other portfolio companies
that face similar problems.
I have an idea about how they solve them.
I'm probably not the bestperson to describe them to you.
(30:01):
Why don't you talk to them?
Right?
So we, I think we can facilitateconnections and conversations that
ultimately are useful, that help getto resolution, but without us being
the ones actually dictating the result.
Erica Seidel (30:15):
That's a great conversation.
Thank you.
So final question for each of youis just what one piece of final
advice would you have for a new CMOor a CMO that's new to a role to
optimize their Board relationship?
Jen Pockell Dimas (30:27):
I think I'll just go back to the thing that I said before.
One is ensure that the Board is includedin your, in your interview process.
I wouldn't allow it otherwise.
And then cultivate that relate, activelycultivate that relationship as someone
who's their partner with you and thesuccess of the business, and help you
see things from a different direction.
And they have skills and abilities tohelp you be more successful at your job.
(30:48):
So leverage them.
And also they can help you insome very clear ways understand
what is the Big V value?
What, why are you there?
What is the outcome thatyou're really trying to drive?
And, and have that perspective from,from a different, a different lens.
Erica Seidel (31:00):
Evan, anything to add?
Evan DeCorte (31:02):
Yeah, I mean, I think without, um, I'll just say just
transparency is, is, is absolutely key.
But I think maybe this, the specificthing I would recommend and something
we try and do though, though notalways successfully, is to make sure
that we are sharing our view on howvalue gets created in these businesses
and being very specific about it.
And that's not necessarily to likeprescribe a playbook, but I think, you
(31:24):
know, even very early on, you know,Jen, Jen and I sat down, you know, we
went through our deck, like how do wethink value gets created at Telarus?
And how do we think themarket will think about value?
How do we think that intersects withmark, intersects with marketing?
And here's some example numbers.
Like it's not, it's not as ifit was the crystal ball where we
(31:44):
outline exactly what's gonna happenfor the next couple of years.
But it allows us to align, I think,but Jen will tell me if it'll work
not, on the common vocabulary, sothat when we talk about value, we are
actually talking about the same thing.
I think sometimes that step can getskipped because we assume that we're
all speaking the same language,when in fact we very rarely are.
(32:05):
Just because we come with differentsets of experiences and different
priors, look doesn't mean we'regonna agree on everything.
But I think it's important that weunderstand each person's worldview so
that we can iterate quickly as we developa relationship around what does value
creation mean in a, you know, privateequity backed or venture-backed business.
Erica Seidel (32:25):
Well, this has been awesome.
Thank you both for sharingthese fabulous perspectives.
I have this image in my mind ofreptilian brains and, you know,
awesome reptiles and, um, andalso just a, just such a nice, uh,
connection between the two of you.
So, thank you so much, Jen Dimas andEvan DeCorte for joining The Get.
That was Jen Dimas, Chief Marketingand Experience Officer from Telarus,
(32:49):
and Evan DeCorte, one of her Boardmembers from Columbia Capital.
Maybe you have a Board memberwith a reptilian brain.
Think about how you can translatemarketing speak for them based
on what you learned today.
Next time on The Get, we will hearfrom two SaaS marketing leaders from
PE-backed companies about their hard-wonlearnings on working with Boards,
(33:09):
Alison Dancy and Madeline O'Phelan.
You'll hear about the relativeimportance of the three Cs - context,
content, and confidence wheninteracting with the Board.
And we talk about how Boards have glommedonto some key marketing concepts like
ABM and ICP, but not others, like brand.
How do you leverage thatin your Board interactions?
(33:30):
Don't miss it.
Thanks for listening to The Get.
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
The Get is here to drive smartdecisions around recruiting and
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
We explore the trends, tribulations,and triumphs of today's top
marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
If you liked thisepisode, please share it.
(33:51):
For more about The Get,visit thegetpodcast.com.
To learn more about my executive searchpractice, which focuses on recruiting the
make-money marketing leaders rather thanthe make-it-pretty ones, follow me on
LinkedIn or visit theconnectivegood.com.
The Get is produced by Evo Terraof Simpler Media Productions.
Hello, and welcome to The Get.
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
This season we examine therelationship between CMOs and Boards.
How can that relationship gofrom fraught to functional,
and maybe even to fantastic?
Today's episode is special.
I've invited a CMO and her Boardmember together to talk, not just
(00:23):
about each other, but with each other.
You'll see what a good partnership lookslike in an actual CMO Board member pair.
We talk with Jen Dimas, the ChiefMarketing and Experience Officer
of Telarus, and Evan DeCorte,a Board member from Columbia
Capital, which backs Telarus.
Some things to listen for, realizeinvestors have reptile brains.
(00:44):
They are focusing on Big V versusLittle V value, so you as a CMO will
need to do some context switching.
Jen offers a guide for that.
You'll learn what to do startingduring your interview process to set
yourself up for a successful standingwith the Board, and you'll learn a
simple framing that will help youas you prepare your Board meetings.
(01:05):
Before we get started, a quickdisclaimer as requested by
Evan's friends in Compliance.
Evo Terra (01:10):
This interview should not be considered investment
advice or a solicitation to invest.
And the views and opinions expressedherein are those of the speakers and
do not necessarily reflect the views orpositions of any entities they represent.
Erica Seidel (01:24):
Let's go.
Welcome to the next session of The Get.
This season, as we know, is allabout the CMO Board relationship,
and I thought, what better than tohave a CMO and one of their Board
members together for this podcast?
So for this one, we welcome JenDimas, who is the Chief Marketing
(01:46):
and Experience Officer for Telarus.
And Telarus is a globaltechnology solutions brokerage.
And I actually placed Jen in her role.
It was a really fun search.
And I worked alongside EvanDeCorte from Columbia Capital.
He is our other guest.
He is, uh, a Board member for Telarusand is representing that perspective.
They are a PE entity that backs Telarus.
(02:07):
So let us get started.
Um, I would love to know, the two ofyou just seem to get along really well,
and as we have talked about before, youhave a pretty strong Board partnership
and sometimes the CMO and Boardpartnership can be a little fraught.
So what makes your partnership specialcompared to other, uh, kind of, uh,
(02:29):
dyads of CMO and Board members thatyou have seen or been a part of?
Maybe Jen, we'll start with you?
Jen Pockell Dimas (02:35):
I think part of the reason our, uh, relationship is
so strong and functional is becausewe were just really, we, we're
both kind of transparent humans.
So when we first met, we both sortof just laid all the cards on the
table about what was going on.
Evan was really clean and clear whatwas necessary in the role, what he had
observed during diligence, uh, looking atTelarus as an investment opportunity and
(02:57):
kind of had done a ton of research andhad a really strong thesis of what was
necessary for the company moving forward.
And he also knew what he didn't know.
He's like, I think I need this thing,but tell me something different.
Um, this is what I see in the market.
This is what I see as an opportunity.
There happened to be a great overlap withwhat was necessary and what I'm good at.
And I think we had a nice developmentof our relationship just because we
(03:18):
both say things that we're good at,things that we, uh, we, things that
we know, things that we don't knowand we're, um, honest with each other.
Evan DeCorte (03:25):
It's really, for me, it's about transparency.
It, I think it's hard to develop ameaningful and productive relationship
if you can't be straightforwardabout, you know, what you need
and want and what you expect.
And, and also it's being receptiveto beat back and hearing from the
company and its executives what theydidn't want from us as, as investors.
And, and then there can be a temptationfrom the Board to treat it as a one-way
(03:48):
street to, to sort of dictate outcomes.
And it turns out that's actuallynot, not really how it works.
Um, people build businesses and, andwe're part of that conversation, but
I think ultimately we're facilitators.
And so if you don't, if you don't cometo that table with that approach, right,
and you think you can sort of just tellpeople what to do instead building a
business with them and alongside them,you're gonna set yourself up for, for
(04:10):
trouble and a lot of disappointment.
Erica Seidel (04:12):
Jen, you mentioned Evan and you got to know each other
through the recruiting process.
And I know Evan, you and I workedtogether along with the CEO of
Telarus for the recruiting of Jen.
Is that, is that unusual?
Jen Pockell Dimas (04:24):
It's not unusual at all.
I've always met with at least aBoard member, um, during recruitment
for a marketing leadership role.
And frankly, I'd be really concerned ifthat wasn't part of the conversation.
If I, I would have requested ithad it not happened organically.
But it's a very important relationship.
The, the executive team in general,delivering on the promise to their
(04:45):
investors, that's a big deal.
And so knowing what the dynamic is thereand understanding that relationship
is incredibly important to, to beable to set yourself up for success.
So, no, I don't think it's unusual.
I think what was unusual hereis just how well-aligned we all
were and like how quickly weestablished fluency with each other.
Erica Seidel (05:03):
Yeah.
My take on having investors in,involved in searches is, I'd rather
have somebody who is helping be achef at the beginning of a process
than being like the restaurantcritic and at the end of a process.
So sometimes I've done searches wherean investor comes in way at the end and
they're like, oh, thumbs up, thumbs down.
And it's not as helpful as ifthey're kind of involved early on.
Jen Pockell Dimas (05:27):
There's, there's something else I just wanted to say, um,
Erica, that I think is, is special here.
Because Evan and Columbia had done suchincredibly thorough work on diligence
about Telarus, like they really understoodthe market in which Telarus is operating.
So they had really strong opinions aboutwhat could be done and what was necessary.
And so I think it's a, it was importantthat they were at the table, like
(05:50):
they saw the market opportunityfor doing things differently.
And they knew that, that doingthis right was gonna be a real
lever for success of the org.
And so I'm glad they were so involvedand they were really well informed.
Erica Seidel (06:02):
Evan, I'm gonna actually ask you this, like what do Boards want
from a CMO and what don't they want?
Evan DeCorte (06:08):
I think what we don't want is hand waving.
As I sort of think about it, it's likea lot of vagueries and, and talk like
big talk about what could be or thethings that are in motion and what things
maybe should look like in the future.
But it's hard to know.
I mean, I think Erica, you, you sortpoint out and say this all the time, but
like we have very simple reptile brains.
(06:29):
We are investors, right?
And our, our goal is to invest money inthe company and then to sell or recap as a
business some way and get money back out.
And our goal is to have that pileof money at the end be a lot bigger
than the pile at the beginning.
And so a lot of what we are focusedon is what is the result of the
actions that you're taking as a CMO?
(06:49):
How do they intersect with thestrategy of the overall business?
And how do they correlatewith value creation?
I, I think as investors we can probably,we're probably pretty thoughtful
about function and we maybe havesome thoughts on sales and operation.
I think it's a rare investor thatis, uh, you know, a marketing
expert that probably approachesnearly 0% of the, of the population.
(07:11):
And so we just need things in many waysthink brought back to the basics, which is
we are doing X and here's how it aligns tothe plan and here's how it creates value.
If you can sort of link all of thosepoints in a clean way, you're gonna
have a very easy conversation withthe Board and the investor syndicate.
I think where conversations breakdown is pointing to activity and
(07:33):
describing the value it will createwithout either data or, uh, an
obvious linkage to a strategic plan.
You know, activity doesn'tcreate value necessarily.
Some activity does, but, but not all.
And so then confusing lots of movingpieces and lots of activity for
the process of sort of building thebusiness like that, that's, I think,
where things get a little shaky.
Erica Seidel (07:54):
I love this reptilian brain concept.
I find that so hilarious and soaccurate, and I, uh, thank you
for, thank you for saying that.
So it seems like, and Evan is, I mean, Ithink you're, you're right, I heard the
stat the other day that fewer than 5% ofBoard members have marketing backgrounds.
So it's, as you say, it'skind of like approaches zero.
(08:17):
So it seems to me that investorsare asking for CMOs to kind
of context switch for them.
It's not like the Board membersare not going to context
switch for marketing leaders.
So, Jen, I'm curious, there isthis kind of translation between
here's what I'm doing and, andhow value gets created here.
So can you talk more about thatcontext switching and, and also
(08:40):
like why is it incumbent upon youto do it if you believe that it is?
Jen Pockell Dimas (08:45):
Uh, well, yes, I do think it is important for me to
be able to speak to the value thatI'm driving in the business in a way
that our investors would care about.
Uh, a hundred percent Ibelieve that's important.
And I think, um, one of the ways thatEvan and I sometimes talk about this
is "Big V value" and "Little V value."
And I think the Little V value, a lotof times people are really attached to
(09:05):
that, like that's the, what am I doingtoday that helps to drive pipeline and
like the things that I'm measuring onthe daily, weekly, monthly to say I
am doing these activities and they'recreating value in the business.
It would be easy - it's not easy,by the way, lots of people aren't
comfortable with that kind of aconversation or that flow, but that's
not - Evan does care about that.
Believe me, he cares about pipelineand booking that are happening.
(09:28):
What Evan cares about is the thing hetold you about five minutes ago when
he said, I put some money in and threeto five years from now, I want it to
be more money that I'm getting out.
That's Big V value.
So it's a really, it has beenhard in B2B marketing historically
to draw a direct line from theactivities that you're making to
the outcomes that they're driving.
But now we're actually talkingabout Big V value, the value of
(09:50):
this company, not just the value ofthese marketing activities that I'm
driving, this, this my contribution topipeline, whatever those things are.
This is about how am I increasingthe value of this company in market?
And that is not a conversationthat is necessarily one that many
are comfortable or fluent in, andthat's the code switching that needs
to happen between the operationalplan and how I'm executing today.
(10:13):
That's also important, by the way,and Evan cares a ton about that, too.
But how am I changing the program that I'mrunning, the team, the, um, the efforts
where I'm investing in order to increasethat Big V value for the company at large.
Erica Seidel (10:26):
Can you say more about that Big V value?
Like when you're at a Boardmeeting, what does that look like
when you are describing that?
Can you say like, oh, the, the valueof the company just went up X percent?
Jen Pockell Dimas (10:38):
I wish I could do that.
That would be cool, but no, that, that'swhy part of this is hard is this, that's
the hardest thing to measure, right?
In marketing, the, the easiest thing tomeasure, which honestly years ago you
couldn't even do this is I did theseactivities, I created this pipeline.
Right?
Those are, those are the, thekinds of things that you can
draw straight lines to now.
Even those things used to be difficult.
(10:59):
But in terms of value creationof a brand or a category that's
really squishy and difficult.
If you're not spend, if you'renot spending tons of money on a
share of voice, share a wallet,what's going on out there?
And for a company in our stageof growth, those kinds of, um,
studies don't make any sense.
Um, and by the way, even if youspent hundreds of thousands of
dollars to do those studies infive minutes, that data would old.
(11:19):
So it, it's not a goodinvestment to do those studies
to understand your Big V value.
But in our particular case, we haveunderstandings about how we want this
company to be understood and valuedand what new markets we want to open.
And we'll be able to see that we'rehaving success there because we will
begin to create revenue in new directions.
We will open up, uh, we willsee consistency in, uh, bookings
(11:43):
creation, in, in directionswe haven't seen historically.
Maybe into a new geo, maybe anew, new product offering, maybe
in a new revenue source that wehadn't considered historically.
Those kinds of thingswould increase our value.
The squishy ways that this would showup, and every marketer hates this, but
one of the things that we knew was achallenge here is our own customers saying
to us, "Oh, I didn't know you did that."
(12:06):
That breaks every marketer's heart.
We don't want that.
So addressing those kinds of things,those are, those are the squishy
things that are hard to measure, right?
How do we make sure that where weare understood, um, where we are in
the consideration set of our futurecustomers, that that is, that market
is expanding, and that more folksare understanding the ways that
Telarus can drive value for them.
Erica Seidel (12:26):
So, Evan, let me ask you, if Jen or a different marketing leader
from a different port co brought upthese kind of squishy things, which
it's, it's, I don't know if I would saysquishy, but kind of like directional
things, like in a Board meeting.
So, for instance, people are, are notsaying that they, um, knew that such and
such a company did X, Y, Z, like, do youthink that's valid for a Board meeting?
Evan DeCorte (12:50):
It's very rarely the case in a complex operating business that you
have one-to-one correlations everywhereacross the company where you can directly
tie specific actions to specific outcomes.
Right?
And so this idea that we're gonnahave perfect knowledge, it's like,
I don't really think it makes sense.
And it seems like an impossible goal.
In many ways, I, I think the Boardmeeting, and this is not exactly what
(13:13):
you asked, but I think the Board meetingand the, and the conversation in the
Boardroom can act as like a bit of aforcing function to, to cause all of the
executives in the business to stop andreflect on this very specific operational
activities that they've been carryingout and ask how does this create value?
Right?
Why are we doing these things?
How do we know that they are successful?
(13:35):
And sometimes we can, all we can do isget a sense where we're directionally
correct and like, that's okay.
I think what, what doesn't work,though, and where I think really, I
don't think it should be a, a questionof, of code switching where marketers
think about marketing things andinvestors think about investment things.
We are united in a common goal, right?
(13:57):
Which is creating, creating value forthe employees, for the shareholders,
and creating valuable business.
If we don't look at the, all of ouractivities through that lens, I, I think
we've sort of failed the enterprise.
And so I, I just, I think in areally simple example, right?
Every CMO in our portfoliois a shareholder, right?
I mean, either through amanagement incentive plan or direct
(14:19):
ownership, they participate inthe value that's being created.
And I don't actually thinkthat that the worlds are too,
they're, they're too different.
It's just where you focus andwhere you apply your efforts.
Erica Seidel (14:29):
Evan, is there something that you admit that you
don't understand about marketingthat you'd be willing to share?
Evan DeCorte (14:37):
I don't know anything about marketing.
I mean, like, there's not like,like so many things I don't know.
I mean, I, I don't even know, I don'teven know how start answering that.
I mean, at, at one point in a, in alife long, long ago, I, I, I had some
marketing experience and like, I'mnot even sure I was very good at it.
And I wouldn't even pretend to give,um, relevant operational advice.
(14:58):
Right?
I mean, I think the world in whichJen says, like, I'm, I'm thinking
about running this campaign and hereare the various ads in front of me.
What should you choose?
It's like, well, like that's verymisguided to ask me because like
what of worth could I tell you?
I think this just kind of goes back tolike what is the, what is the relationship
between the Board, the investorsyndicate, and the executive team?
(15:20):
It's, hey Jen, like showme with your track record.
Right?
So you've told me that you wanted topursue these things, that they would
be valuable in the past you did them.
What was the outcome?
I think that feedback loop is justas valuable when things are working
as it is when they're not working.
In fact, it's probably more valuablewhen it's not working right.
So, to the extent that we cansee team hypothesis test and then
(15:41):
course correct, that's great too.
We don't expect everyone to beright a hundred percent of the time.
What we, what we care about is thatwe're measuring the activity as best
we can and knowing that it's probablyimperfect at best, and then using
that data to inform our next action.
And so, I mean, I don't know, Jen,correct me if I'm wrong, but, like,
(16:03):
the number of times I've given any kindof meaningful, substantive advice in
the Board meeting around some specificmarketing tactic, like I, I probably
could count on one hand and everytime I gave it was probably wrong.
So our, our goal is notto be smart marketers.
That's why we recruit great peopleto work with our businesses.
So we don't, we don't have to do it.
We're getting involved it's becausesomething's gone horribly wrong.
Jen Pockell Dimas (16:23):
I do think now there was something, um, underneath what Evan
just said, that that has changed whomarketers are, who CMOs are, Erica,
and that is this preponderance ofdata that allows us to understand now
digital buying behavior, to be ableto see how people are engaging with
the brand and how they become engagedwhen they're in the consideration set.
(16:45):
What their purchase journey looks like.
What happens after.
Now that we can understand thesethings, it, we, we must, right?
Erica Seidel (16:51):
Mm-hmm.
Jen Pockell Dimas (16:52):
So what Evan didn't say is like, that's why he wants
data-driven marketers to help himbecause he speaks with his reptile brain.
He wants to understand, if I putin a dollar here, how many dollars
am I getting out on the other side?
And that's hard to do if you're talkingabout squishy, you know, arts and crafts
marketing, which that, that's why theprofile of who leads marketing has
(17:12):
changed so much because the data existsto be able to tell more informed stories.
And so that's why folks are lookingfor that profile from a leader today.
Erica Seidel (17:20):
So, Jen, let me ask you, we asked Evan what he wants from a CMO.
What do you want from a Boardand what don't you want?
Jen Pockell Dimas (17:29):
I love that they know what they know and
they know what they don't know.
Um, and they're just so that,that's super helpful because it
hasn't always been like that for me.
I'll, I'll be honest, like there area lot of people who read something
about marketing and, and then sendyou a note saying, you should do this
with your SEO strategy, or you shouldgo on Twitter and say these things.
There are a lot of people who sort of likeplay at operating, and that's not bad.
(17:50):
I mean, it's, you get goodideas from all over the place.
It's not a bad thing to have that, butit, it's really powerful to know where
you add value and where you don't.
Like Evan and I have had manyconversations about me understanding
his financial perspective on things andwhat good looks like and what success
looks like for the company and thingslike that so that we remain aligned.
So I like, I like that kind of openness.
(18:11):
I like that we have openchannels of communication.
Like that's another thing is Ilike ungated access to Board.
Uh, sometimes you have, uh,leadership that, that's really
protective of that relationship,and we don't have that at Telarus.
We are, we are allowed and encouragedto have direct relationships with Board
and I think that is really healthy.
So that's something that Iwould want is open access.
(18:33):
And feedback like when things are goingwell or when things aren't going well.
Just like Evan wants me to tell him,hey, I, I ran this play and oops,
that didn't work out well, so nowI'm gonna do it this way next time.
This is what I'm gonna change andthis is how, this is what I learned
and how I'm gonna do it differently.
I also want them to be like, hey,by the way, when you presented
information the following way is thisdid not, um, meet our expectations.
(18:53):
It would be better if it was likethis, and this is what I really meant
when I said I wanted this thing.
Like real open, honestfeedback is super helpful.
'Cause I've definitely had itwhere it's not that and that I've
been surprised by Board reactions.
So I think that that's sort ofme as a human, um, wanting that.
I want more open communication anyway.
And having that from aBoard is very important.
I, I believe I have that withEvan and with the rest of the
(19:15):
Columbia Capital Board, too.
Erica Seidel (19:17):
So Jen, what would be your advice to another CMO who is facing that
challenge that a Board member, you know,saw something, you know, like, oh, go
do this thing on Twitter, or, you know,why don't you, why don't you do X, Y, Z?
How, how would you advise them?
Jen Pockell Dimas (19:34):
Well, what I've said, I really believe.
Like good ideas come from anywhere.
So part of the guidance there islistening, uh, you know, being open-minded
to things, but the other part is to,it's an opportunity in some cases to
remind folks about what your prioritiesand where your areas of focus are.
So it, it would be great in, in, inthe case when someone came up with
a thing and said, "Hey, why don'tyou go do the thing over there?"
(19:55):
You could say, oh, that's a reallyinteresting idea, and remember this year
we're focused on these three priorities.
These are the things that myprograms are driving toward.
And I, we could, um, we could take someof our focus away to try that experiment,
but I'm not sure it would have thesame impact on the bottom line as these
things that we're doing or whatever.
Bringing information back to whatare the like top line objectives
(20:16):
that you're trying to drive throughthe business is one way to do that.
Because there's always a lot of ideasand keeping focused and, uh, and trying
things is good or, or keeping a carve outfor ex-experian, like, uh, experiment,
pardon me, is is also not a bad ideabecause there are often ideas that
come at you from lots of directionsand it's not a bad idea to try things.
Erica Seidel (20:36):
Right.
Evan DeCorte (20:36):
I actually think it's funny, like, I hadn't really thought about
it that way, but I, I do think framingthings for the investor or the Board
around this idea of constrained resources.
Like we only have so many people.
We have to pick the things thatwe're gonna do and we wanna
be best in the world at them.
In order for us to do that,this is what we have to do.
Like that, that is, that'slanguage that resonates, right?
So we, I always sort of ask peoplelike, what are you best in the world at?
(20:59):
What is the company best in the world at?
How do we do more of that thingand do less things you're not?
I think investors and finance folksunderstand this idea of constrained
resources and tradeoffs really well,but somehow, like when we talk with
the companies with which we invested,we have this expectation that people
do endless amounts of work with,you know, very limited resources.
And then there's also thisquestion about budget, right?
(21:21):
So we like the idea of endlesswork, but without endless budget.
And, and like turns out thoseare, like, contradictory ideas.
And so, you know, I think framing thepriorities around, you know, what we can
do well and what we need to focus on,I think is also, is always a, a helpful
way to ground and frame the conversation.
Erica Seidel (21:42):
Thank you.
So any tips on whenthings are not going well?
Evan, you brought this up earlier.
If, um, you know, say leads are down,conversion is suffering, a launch
falls flat, you know, you spend alot of money on a campaign and it
doesn't do, doesn't go anywhere.
Like, I'm curious from, from eitheror both of you, how should that change
how a CMO interacts with the Board?
Jen Pockell Dimas (22:02):
If you have the measurements in place, like
we were talking about, there'salways something that's out.
People don't buy the wayyou expect them to buy.
Buying trends change, things change.
Um, and so there's never gonnabe ever a time when you 100%
delivered on your promise.
So I think just being completely,first of all, managing expectations
that that's true is helpful.
Like if someone's expecting greenacross the Board and everything just
(22:25):
goes the way that they, uh, hopedit would, like, that's not rational.
It's probably not gonna go that way.
And we're probably not measuringthings appropriately if everything's
always looking up and to the right.
So what we're looking for are to have themechanisms in place that we can see when
things are out and that we can adjust.
So Evan just said, tell me early andoften when things aren't going right.
I would hope, Erica, never, I mean,not never, unless Evan wants me to,
(22:48):
but I'm not gonna be in the businessof talking to Evan about the messaging
that I have at the campaign level.
That's something, that'slike too small for him.
He doesn't care about those things.
What he cares about is the outcomein a bi- much bigger sense.
So he needs to believe that I'm trackingthe business in a way that I can
make adjustments, um, to my businessand ma- and make those outcomes.
And that, and that I need to beout and honest with what's going
(23:10):
really well and also with whatI'm, uh, working to correct.
And so some of that is me, um,actively managing expectations that
things will, will always be out.
And secondly, me, me showing thereds and the yellows too, not just
the greens when I'm communicatingwith the Board about what's going,
you know, how things are going.
Evan DeCorte (23:25):
I guess just what I wanna know is that, amongst the teams that
we back, there's enough willingness toreflect on what's going right and wrong.
Communicate those lessonsin, in an open and honest way
that we can have a dialogue.
What I think, I think when that breaksdown, I think you get a lot of, you get a
lot of commentary about, you know, Twittertactics from Board members who don't
(23:47):
know what they're talking about, right?
There's like some, some interestsare desired to assert control where
maybe they feel like they don'thave their arms around things.
And I think similarly, if teams don'tfeel like they have an understanding
where their investors sit and how they'rethinking about the world, then maybe they,
maybe they wanna hoard information too.
And like if, when you get to those,those are very dark places to get and
you really never, ever wanna be there.
(24:09):
And the only way to, to avoid itis just be open, honest, every
step, every step of the way.
Jen Pockell Dimas (24:14):
Your question, um, was about what to do in these cases.
So part of my guidance would be includethe Board in all of your interviews.
First of all, don't ever accept amarketing leadership position without
relationship development with thatBoard because you don't know what
you're walking into otherwise.
Like you're signing up for somethingthat you don't know what that's like.
And then manage that, um,relationship actively.
(24:35):
I can- earlier when leadership was lesscomfortable to me, when it was a newer
experience of leading the functions, Idon't know that I had the confidence to
push on that kind of thing as much andI didn't, um, and I didn't know that.
I don't think I developed theBoard relationships as much as I
should have, like looking back.
Um, and so there was an outbetween expectation and, uh,
(24:56):
delivery and things like that.
And I think that as I've moved on,like that's an incredibly important,
uh, relationship to invest in beforeyou even accept the job so that
you're on the same page about, um,expectations, but also certainly
to cultivate while you're in-seat.
Erica Seidel (25:09):
That, that makes a ton of sense.
Jen, you were mentioning, youknow, reds, yellows, and greens.
Um, which makes me wonder, what hasworked and what hasn't in terms of
structuring your Board presentations?
And relatedly, is there a way that you'veseen to not have Board meeting prep
take days of intensity and days of time?
Jen Pockell Dimas (25:30):
Well, your Board meeting content is
always incredibly important.
And I, I'm not even ayear in-seat at Telarus.
So if I am honest about how we'vemanaged our Board conversations
to date, it's not like I have a, arote package that I'm continuously
delivering to them every single time.
It's more complete updates to like,what are the strategic imperatives?
The first 120 days I was like sittingand looking and evaluating the business
(25:54):
and deciding what priorities were, andit was aligning on priorities and it
was restructuring and doing all that.
So there's been a lot of higherlevel updates, but my goal ultimately
when I get the business to whereit is, is to have more of a regular
package, which is data driven.
I have, at this point, um, developeda dashboard, but it, it is a dashboard
that I am just now reporting onregularly to the internal business.
(26:17):
It's not even Board ready.
Like, I'll, Evan, I could, I I wouldshow it to you in a private meeting right
now, but it's not consistent enough.
Um, I haven't had enough monthsin-seat, like measuring the same
things that I believe it's Board ready.
And so I think by partway throughthis year we'll be in that place,
Erica, where I'll have a more standardBoard reporting package where Evan
(26:37):
can be like, aha, these, this iswhat I expect to see from Jen.
Erica Seidel (26:41):
Evan, anything to add on how Board meeting prep can be less intensive?
Evan DeCorte (26:47):
I don't actually know if that's the right question.
Like, I mean, I think that the sortof frames Board meeting prep as like
eating, eating your vegetables, right?
Erica Seidel (26:53):
Yeah.
Evan DeCorte (26:53):
It's like what's the least painful way to do this?
It, it's, something's that's kindof a pain and it takes a lot time,
and could we be more efficient?
Because it, I, I think it treatsthe, the Board reporting as
perfunctory and as reporting.
And I think if that's the where youare, well then just send out the deck.
We don't need a Board meeting, right?
I mean, send some materials.
(27:14):
Tell me, show me the same thing everymonth or every quarter, whatever.
And we don't need to get togetherand burn up a bunch of time.
If that's what you're doing, I, I thinkBoard meetings, Board meetings probably
were being run pretty poorly, right?
It's not good use of everyone's time.
I think Board meeting prep takes timebecause it is, I think, for the business,
like a moment of self-reflection.
What have we done?
What were the outcomes?
What are we gonna do differently?
(27:35):
How does this impact our viewon strategy or the market?
And those are not alwayseasy questions to answer.
And if they are really easy, likeI, I might, might think it's time
for a little more self-reflection.
Right?
Because it, because they're, these arelike, it very rarely are the things
that we're doing, even in businessesthat are just really doing well, easy.
(27:56):
We face tough questions thattake time to grapple with, right?
We are conducting a lot of activitiesand hiring people and running new
strategies and evaluating them andmeasuring them against the alternatives.
Like those are complex questions.
Erica Seidel (28:09):
Yeah.
Evan DeCorte (28:10):
If the answer is obvious and easy, and it's the same every
quarter, like something's not working.
So I, I encourage the companies that wework with, and I think this, you know,
extends all the way to the marketingfunction to look at the Board meeting as a
way to just pause and to, to kind of thinkabout what you've been spending time on
and you know, what you wanna accomplishand, and what you have accomplished.
(28:32):
I think for, just given where Columbiainvests, a lot of times we'll get involved
in the business that maybe has actuallynever even had a formal Board meeting.
And I think there's sometimes a littlebit of, like, a allergic reaction idea.
We'll write all the things working downpiece of paper then talk about them.
But over time, I, I, I would saythe universal, in your universal
view from the executives that wepartner with, the Board meeting
(28:54):
itself is a highly valuable exercise.
It is not just to give anupdate to the investor group.
Jen Pockell Dimas (29:00):
It does force you to look with outside
eyes at your business, right?
'Cause you can get so in the weedson a regular day, to say, okay,
wait a minute, now I'm looking atthis from a different perspective.
Uh, what's the story?
How are things going?
And so I, I completely agree thatit, and, and also you wanna use
the Board for the guidance thatthey're good at giving you, right?
(29:20):
You wanna be able to say, these arethe things that are happening, and
ask them for the guidance, um, in theplaces where you need it or, or buy in
for the decisions that you're making.
If they, you know, like,this is my strategy.
This is something I learned, thisis what I'm gonna do differently.
Is this something you're familiar with?
Is this, does this make sense?
Like, use the Board formaking good decisions too.
Erica Seidel (29:38):
Right.
Evan DeCorte (29:39):
And I think, you know, the, the more informed we are, the
better we are at providing support.
And that support is not inthe form of, you know, this
marketing tactic versus that.
It's, hey Jen, like we haveten other portfolio companies
that face similar problems.
I have an idea about how they solve them.
I'm probably not the bestperson to describe them to you.
(30:01):
Why don't you talk to them?
Right?
So we, I think we can facilitateconnections and conversations that
ultimately are useful, that help getto resolution, but without us being
the ones actually dictating the result.
Erica Seidel (30:15):
That's a great conversation.
Thank you.
So final question for each of youis just what one piece of final
advice would you have for a new CMOor a CMO that's new to a role to
optimize their Board relationship?
Jen Pockell Dimas (30:27):
I think I'll just go back to the thing that I said before.
One is ensure that the Board is includedin your, in your interview process.
I wouldn't allow it otherwise.
And then cultivate that relate, activelycultivate that relationship as someone
who's their partner with you and thesuccess of the business, and help you
see things from a different direction.
And they have skills and abilities tohelp you be more successful at your job.
(30:48):
So leverage them.
And also they can help you insome very clear ways understand
what is the Big V value?
What, why are you there?
What is the outcome thatyou're really trying to drive?
And, and have that perspective from,from a different, a different lens.
Erica Seidel (31:00):
Evan, anything to add?
Evan DeCorte (31:02):
Yeah, I mean, I think without, um, I'll just say just
transparency is, is, is absolutely key.
But I think maybe this, the specificthing I would recommend and something
we try and do though, though notalways successfully, is to make sure
that we are sharing our view on howvalue gets created in these businesses
and being very specific about it.
And that's not necessarily to likeprescribe a playbook, but I think, you
(31:24):
know, even very early on, you know,Jen, Jen and I sat down, you know, we
went through our deck, like how do wethink value gets created at Telarus?
And how do we think themarket will think about value?
How do we think that intersects withmark, intersects with marketing?
And here's some example numbers.
Like it's not, it's not as ifit was the crystal ball where we
(31:44):
outline exactly what's gonna happenfor the next couple of years.
But it allows us to align, I think,but Jen will tell me if it'll work
not, on the common vocabulary, sothat when we talk about value, we are
actually talking about the same thing.
I think sometimes that step can getskipped because we assume that we're
all speaking the same language,when in fact we very rarely are.
(32:05):
Just because we come with differentsets of experiences and different
priors, look doesn't mean we'regonna agree on everything.
But I think it's important that weunderstand each person's worldview so
that we can iterate quickly as we developa relationship around what does value
creation mean in a, you know, privateequity backed or venture-backed business.
Erica Seidel (32:25):
Well, this has been awesome.
Thank you both for sharingthese fabulous perspectives.
I have this image in my mind ofreptilian brains and, you know,
awesome reptiles and, um, andalso just a, just such a nice, uh,
connection between the two of you.
So, thank you so much, Jen Dimas andEvan DeCorte for joining The Get.
That was Jen Dimas, Chief Marketingand Experience Officer from Telarus,
(32:49):
and Evan DeCorte, one of her Boardmembers from Columbia Capital.
Maybe you have a Board memberwith a reptilian brain.
Think about how you can translatemarketing speak for them based
on what you learned today.
Next time on The Get, we will hearfrom two SaaS marketing leaders from
PE-backed companies about their hard-wonlearnings on working with Boards,
(33:09):
Alison Dancy and Madeline O'Phelan.
You'll hear about the relativeimportance of the three Cs - context,
content, and confidence wheninteracting with the Board.
And we talk about how Boards have glommedonto some key marketing concepts like
ABM and ICP, but not others, like brand.
How do you leverage thatin your Board interactions?
(33:30):
Don't miss it.
Thanks for listening to The Get.
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
The Get is here to drive smartdecisions around recruiting and
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
We explore the trends, tribulations,and triumphs of today's top
marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
If you liked thisepisode, please share it.
(33:51):
For more about The Get,visit thegetpodcast.com.
To learn more about my executive searchpractice, which focuses on recruiting the
make-money marketing leaders rather thanthe make-it-pretty ones, follow me on
LinkedIn or visit theconnectivegood.com.
The Get is produced by Evo Terraof Simpler Media Productions.
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