June 15, 2023 • 35 mins
Sandra Lopez is a marketing dynamo who has been in marketing leadership and general management roles in many of the world's biggest and most influential tech companies, like Adobe, Intel, and Microsoft. She recently served as co-chair for the World Economic Forum for Augmented Reality and Virtual Reality. She also serves on the Board of Directors for Junior Achievement USA and PureRED, she's an advisor for Cabra Sports, and she is the co-chair for Sports Integrity Global Alliance.
We discuss:
- How to translate marketing-speak into language that CFOs and Board members can understand
- How to work with Board members who think they know more about marketing than they actually do
- How to manage expectations with Boards about how long things take in marketing and educate along the way, understanding that "it's hard to educate someone in 30 minutes"
- How to prepare for Board service – and knowing when to say no to a Board opportunity
- How interviewing for a Board seat is different from interviewing for a CMO spot
Key Links
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lopezsandra/
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The Get is here to drive smart decisions around recruiting and leadership in B2B SaaS marketing. We explore the trends, tribulations, and triumphs of today’s top marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
This season’s theme is the CMO and Board Relationship in B2B SaaS.
The Get’s host is Erica Seidel, who runs The Connective Good, an executive search practice with a hyper-focus on recruiting CMOs and VPs of Marketing, especially in B2B SaaS.
If you are looking to hire a CMO or VP of Marketing of the ‘make money’ variety - rather than the ‘make it pretty’ variety, contact Erica at erica@theconnectivegood.com. You can also follow Erica on LinkedIn or sign up for her newsletter at TheConnectiveGood.com.
The Get is produced by Evo Terra and Simpler Media Productions.
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erica Seidel (00:03):
Hello, and welcome to The Get.
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
This season we examine therelationship between CMOs and Boards.
How can that relationship gofrom fraught to functional,
and maybe even to fantastic?
Today, we hear from Sandra Lopez.
She is a marketing dynamo who has been inmarketing, leadership, and general manager
(00:23):
roles in many of the world's biggestand most influential tech companies
like Adobe, Intel, and Microsoft.
She recently served as co-chairfor the World Economic Forum for
Augmented Reality and Virtual Reality.
She also serves on the Board of Directorsfor Junior Achievement USA and PureRED.
She's an advisor for CabraSports and is the co-chair for
(00:45):
Sports Integrity Global Alliance.
You'll hear about how to educate the Boardon how long things take in marketing.
As she says, it's hard to educatesomeone in thirty minutes, so
you have to think creatively.
You'll also learn about how toprepare for a Board position and
how to put your best foot forwardwhen you interview with a Board.
And, we discuss how nonprofit Boardwork, chosen wisely, can be a great
(01:07):
segue to for-profit Board work.
Here we go.
Sandra Lopez, welcome to the show.
Glad to have you on The Get andexcited to hear your perspectives.
Sandra Lopez (01:21):
Thank you for having me on board.
Looking forward tohaving this conversation.
Erica Seidel (01:24):
Maybe you could just start by sharing an overview of your
career path, cuz it's been such aninteresting path that you've followed.
You know, you know your B2B marketing, youknow your B2C marketing, you know brand,
you know demand, like the whole shebang.
Can you kind- kind of just, youknow, coalesce it a little bit?
Sandra Lopez (01:40):
I always like to say I was kind of born and bred in Silicon Valley,
so technology at the heart of everything.
And I always had the aspirationto be a Chief Marketing Officer.
And, without anybody telling meas a mentor or sponsor, I just
wanted to do my own journey.
I wanted to create my own music, andso I created my own songbook in terms
of what could that possibly look like.
(02:01):
And what I knew is that wheneverI became a CMO, I really wanted to
understand the various solutionsof what entailed marketing.
So I jumped from small companyto large company, did everything
from lead generation to brandstrategy, worked in New York
City, came back to Silicon Valley.
(02:21):
And so I would say that my careertrajectory, I always have to
say the analogy, in, like, ways.
I directionally knew where I wantedto go, but I also allowed myself to
explore the unexpected neighborhoods.
And that's where I did a pivotinto the business unit, running a
division, in particular wearables.
And then I went into sports media.
(02:42):
And a couple things Ilearned from that pivot.
One, I learned things about myselfthat I didn't know I was capable of,
whether it's business development,effectively managing a P&L.
And then how important it was tounderstand business language when
it came to leading a marketingorganization and driving those
(03:04):
conversations to a C-level leadershipteam and/or your Board of Directors.
And so I'm unconventional.
Typically know where I wanna go,but I allow myself to explore
and, and I will continue to do so.
Erica Seidel (03:17):
I love this ways analogy.
I think that's great.
Do you think everybody who's anaspiring CMO should take a GM role,
or do you think it's, like, enough forthem to kind of take a GM perspective
within their marketing domain?
Sandra Lopez (03:33):
Listen, I think everybody has their own journey, and all I can share
is my particular point of view based onthe type of leader that I want to be.
So if I'm a CMO focused on tangiblebusiness, we know that oftentimes when
we're on an economic pitch, what happens?
Your budget's decreased, headcountmarketing's one of the first organizations
(03:57):
that are going to be impacted.
But if you change the conversationand be able to illustrate how
marketing drove tangible growthand/or helped enter into adjacent
markets, I do believe understandingrunning a P&L is very, very important.
You're much more attuned to,we're gonna do a brand strategy.
(04:17):
Let's think about potential ASP uplift.
Let's do some financial modeling,work very closely with the CFO.
Um, and not working closely withthe CFO in the context of like,
what's your, you know, abovethe line, below the line budget.
It's a very different conversation.
If you wanna be a CMO that's reallyleaning into creativity, then maybe
(04:38):
not necessarily you don't have tobecome a GM and you're looking at
more psychology, sociology, andbecoming much more of a culturist.
So I think it really depends onwhat type of CMO you wanna be.
And I try to do a hybrid of growththat in order to be a great CMO,
you need to understand your consumerand where they're going and what's
happening around them, both for businesscustomer and/or a consumer customer.
(05:03):
And at the same time really understandinglike, how do you drive marketing as a P&L?
Erica Seidel (05:10):
Makes sense.
Can you share, since we're talkinga lot about, you know, CMOs and
Board relationships, can you sharea hard-won lesson you have had, um,
from interacting with, with a Board?
Any Board?
Sandra Lopez (05:21):
I always like to say strategy without
execution's pure hallucination.
So I like to be a strategist andbe able to execute with my team.
The role of a Board of Directors is askthe hard questions so you can help guide
them and advise them towards, you know,their overall trajectory in terms of
whatever their strategic imperatives are.
And so moving from the doing andadvising and knowing when to step
(05:43):
back has been the mental rigor andchallenge that I've had to take on.
So it's really about asking the rightquestions and providing point of view,
and, ultimately, it's the C-level andthe leadership team that have to decide
what's best for the organization.
So that shift was a struggle for me, andI still find myself sometimes wanting
(06:06):
to, like, roll up my sleeves, help drivesome of the strategies to execution.
Erica Seidel (06:11):
Is there something you tell yourself when you're worried that
you're gonna kind of dive into executionand, and, but you want, really wanna
come up with a good question instead?
Sandra Lopez (06:20):
Yeah.
I have to remind myself every singletime when I'm either part of the
committee conversation and/or at theBoard meeting, and we're having the
one-to-one with the CEO, remember, myresponsibility and accountability is to
advise them towards the right path basedon the goals that we have all agreed to,
and knowing when to take a step back.
(06:41):
And so I do that inevery single interaction.
A lot of it's just practicing, right?
So I'm fairly new about a, you know,over a year in, in Junior Achievement,
which is a nonprofit, less thana year with the private Board.
And I do think it takesconditioning just like anything.
And so I'm just, you know, practicingmy trade, learning how to be the
(07:02):
best Board of Directors for thecompanies that I said I would like to
participate and believe I can add value.
Erica Seidel (07:09):
Can you talk about how you've educated a Board about marketing,
if you have, and what that looks like?
What teaching like, because many,many Board members don't have
marketing backgrounds and they mightthink that they know more about
marketing than they actually do.
Sandra Lopez (07:23):
Right.
Interesting.
And we were talking about this earlier,that apparently there's only about
forty Board members with marketingpedigree for Fortune 1000 and above.
And so it's not familiar withthe Board of Directors, right?
There's a lot of people, theCEO, supply chain officers.
And so when you're asking questions whenit comes to marketing, this is where my
(07:46):
P&L general management come into play.
I don't ask the traditionalbrand awareness questions.
I think about, let's take a look atour revenue growth year projection.
So I translate a lot of what isimportant to marketing in the language
that will be familiar to CEOs, CFO.
(08:07):
Cuz you have to remember, like yourBoard of Directors and your fellow
colleagues come from a different pedigree.
And so as a CMO marketer, you findyourself oftentimes translating the
language of marketing into vocabularyin which the CFO and CEO can really get
behind and lean into the conversation.
The worst thing is you bring a pointand everybody just dismisses you.
Erica Seidel (08:30):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (08:30):
And so how do you bring a point that has people thinking and really
leaning in so that we can advise theCEO and/or the leadership team in terms
of possible paths to move forward with?
Erica Seidel (08:43):
And do you feel like CEOs and CFOs sometimes glom onto certain
terms of marketing but not others?
You know, so in another one of thesepodcasts we talked about how there
are some terms that people just get.
You know, they get ICP, they get persona.
They get positioning more thanthey get branding, you know?
And, and have you, have you foundthat to be the case where there's,
(09:03):
like, some terms that, that fly andthat other marketing terms just flop?
Sandra Lopez (09:09):
I mean, I think it's one of those things that's just
the perception that we have, right?
So I do believe what transpires isthere's a perception of marketing.
Marketing is about value proposition,positioning, logos, the PowerPoint
presentation, helping sales sell n.
And that's all familiar.
(09:29):
And where you start to kind of gloss overis when you start to think about, uh,
you know, they're all familiar with CTR.
They've evolved one part of thedigital transformation, but you
start to think about well, long-termvalue to customer acquisition,
and then you start to translatethat and a CFO gets it right away.
So I do think there is this bias,you know, talking about customer
(09:53):
segmentation and new customer.
They get all of that.
Erica Seidel (09:55):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (09:56):
And then the question is, well, how is that going to translate
to meaningful business impact?
Cuz oftentimes in the Board ofDirectors, you're there to help grow.
Erica Seidel (10:03):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (10:04):
And so when you're thinking about questions that you wanna ask,
and I oftentimes think about like,how am I gonna frame this question-
Erica Seidel (10:11):
Hmm.
Sandra Lopez (10:12):
-so that the CEOs of other companies that are part
of Board of Directors or CEOsunderstand what I'm trying to get at?
Erica Seidel (10:20):
Mm-hmm.
Is there any other exampleof, like, a before and after
framing that comes to mind?
Sandra Lopez (10:26):
It's easy to say, hey, we're gonna go upmarket and reach a
particular new customer sec- section.
Erica Seidel (10:32):
Sure.
Sandra Lopez (10:33):
And I'm just gonna be careful I'm not disclosing
information of confidential, so I'llgive you just like a generic example.
We're gonna go after this new customersegment and then the question will
be, well, let's think about thatsegment and the cost of entry.
Right?
What will be the ROI?
What is the additional revenuethat could be generated if we're
(10:54):
gonna bring on this new customers?
This customer segment carries this.
This is the demographics.
This is the attitudes.
This is what we think of themarket opportunity at a high level.
But like you gotta keep on pushing.
Erica Seidel (11:05):
Hmm.
Sandra Lopez (11:06):
Yeah, this is maybe a market size that represents
$1 billion, potentially.
That's a total tamp.
But how, have we done the analysisof what this segment will bring from
additive revenue over the next five years?
How much do we need to invest?
What does that investmentstrategy look like?
(11:27):
So that goes back to the the,to eventually capture that.
What happens from anoperations standpoint?
What happens from customer service?
This new customer segment isradically different from our current
customer base, which means thatwe have to operate differently.
So this is not just an exercisearound new customer segmentation.
This is like operations.
(11:47):
You have to think about customer service.
There are so many elements that comeinto play, and so that's one example
that I always like to use is that it'seasy to have the CMO come in, talk
about new market segment, and thenit's your job as a Board of Directors.
And being a marketer, like many ofus have gone through this before.
We know that it's just much morethan doing effective direct marketing
(12:09):
and using digital marketing.
There are elements that come intoplay that touch other organizations.
Erica Seidel (12:14):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (12:15):
So really thinking about that and kind of framing
those conversations is like anotherexample that I like to use, typically
marketers are really good at, isin terms of knowing your customer,
what does segmentation look like?
But what does it really mean toenter into that market segment?
Erica Seidel (12:31):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (12:31):
Do you need to hire different types of personnel in terms
of driving conversations with them?
So really framing it, going backto, I always like to say, like, you
just go back to think like a CFO.
Erica Seidel (12:43):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (12:43):
I think that really helps.
And we, because we have only fortyor so CMOs in the Board of Directors,
we have the responsibility on ourshoulders to illustrate that we
can drive very meaningful business.
Erica Seidel (12:58):
Have you seen a really good way of learning how to
be that CMO who thinks like a CFO?
You know, is it shadowing the CFO?
Is it, um, I, I don't know.
Like, asking for, you know, like,you know, sharing goals and, and,
and coming up with some kind of,like, translation dictionary or
something like, like, like is thereanything that comes to mind there?
Sandra Lopez (13:20):
I love all your ideas.
So shadowing's always great.
And then oftentimes, you know,they're not necessarily available
cuz you have a busy calendar.
So you have to kind of be realisticin terms of what's feasible.
And so if you think about an exercisethat you're doing in marketing, so
let's think about the hottest thingin performance based marketing.
Erica Seidel (13:37):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (13:38):
Right?
Everybody's talking about that.
It requires digital transformation,which oftentimes means you
need to sit down with your CTO.
Can you sit down with your CFO andagree on the L to beta cap ratio?
What does that mean?
And what does that look like?
Can you start modeling P&Ls?
I always like to tell individuals, kindof hate the word performance marketing,
(13:58):
cuz the reality is you're a mini GM.
You're responsible for revenue andhitting targets, and in order to
drive performance-based marketing,you have a Mar- MarTech stack
that's underneath, which actuallycosts me whether it's licensing-
Erica Seidel (14:12):
Right.
Sandra Lopez (14:12):
Whether you're working with your IT department to build out
some technology and features, whichthey're gonna charge back to you.
And so that to me is like, it's thespirit of like, there's cost, there's
revenue, there's efficiencies, and there'smargins that you have to [inaudible].
So performance-based marketers,to me, I always tell 'em like,
you guys are running a P&L.
Like reframe what youraccountability responsibility is.
(14:37):
And I know if you have, if you'reco-dependent, if you have a sales
department and they're not gettingthe lead flow, they're gonna point
fingers at you because they need that.
And so you're directly tied to revenue.
And so that's one example that Ithink you can sit there with your
CFO and you bring them along thejourney and build a relationship.
And so you have to meet with yourCFO then on a monthly basis and/or
(15:00):
like a weekly basis, depending onhow you're looking at your numbers.
And then you start to, like, havethose times to ask curiosity and
ask them about different things.
Oftentimes, when you are looking atbrand architecture strategies and
you're redeveloping an entire, you havemultiple logos you're trying to simplify.
Erica Seidel (15:17):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (15:18):
Will that impact in terms of lesser choice?
Is it gonna cannibalizeone or the other products?
That's yet another opportunity tobring a CFO into the journey and talk
about, let's do some modeling together.
Oftentimes what I had seen isbrand architecture strategies that
talk about the business rationale,but there's no financial number.
(15:41):
They'll talk to you about what it'sgonna cost, what it's gonna cost to
overhaul the entire thing and allthe collateral that needs to get
updated, both analog and digital.
Yet I never see if we were tosimplify the brand, what could this
look like on the financial side?
Or if we're gonna do a massivebrand transition and reposition
the brand in its totality from onepoint to another point, will it
(16:06):
alienate your existing customer base?
And if so, well what, what couldthat be from a sales perspective?
So you can model all this stuff.
You can, sitting down with the CMO,there are tools and there abilities.
I've done this before.
Erica Seidel (16:16):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (16:17):
And so I would say to any CMO or any marketing person that's eager
to go into a Board seat and starting to,like, practice the language of the CFOs,
take some existing projects where you'relike, wow, if I were to do this with a
CFO, what could we model financially?
Erica Seidel (16:33):
Hmm.
Sandra Lopez (16:34):
And then over time, your CFO becomes your mentor and an advisor to you.
And, and that's what happened to mewhen I was at Intel I had an invi-
individual helped guide me as we weregoing through marketing strategy,
repositioning efforts, and reallyunderstanding the overall business.
Erica Seidel (16:49):
So CMOs can fail, as you know, um, because Boards and
CEOs have these expectations of,you know, you should be able to do
marketing, you know, overnight andturn around something overnight.
And then CMOs, so there's thisdebate about, you know, like,
oh, you should do this faster.
And then a CMO will say,oh, it, it takes time.
How do you think marketing leaders cankind of manage those expectations with
(17:10):
Boards about how long things take?
Sandra Lopez (17:13):
You're absolutely right.
Uh, there's a lot of educationand oftentimes, we've had this
conversation in the past, thateverybody feels they can do marketing.
Erica Seidel (17:21):
Yes.
Sandra Lopez (17:22):
You know, I learned a framework that I thought was very helpful
that came from [inaudible], which isthe strategic decision-making framework.
If you're going on a journey andyou're seeking to solve a problem,
oftentimes, like, your C-level, andyourself, you're not on the same page
of what problem you're trying to solve.
So go in and understand, like,what problem are we solving?
Are we, are we on the same position?
Erica Seidel (17:42):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (17:42):
The other thing, too, is, like, and what are the milestones?
Here's why it takes time todo market research, right?
Erica Seidel (17:48):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (17:49):
We want to capture, not only part of our customer segment,
we are a global brand by very nature.
We have to go to Europe, wehave to go to, like, Asia, and
we want to enlarge sampling.
And we also wanna pivot along theway as we're learning about some
research around specific focus groups.
And we wanna get this right.
Because once you get the idea, thenyou go into execution and it's gonna
(18:11):
cost much more if we get it wrong.
So there's going to be five-monthwindow of market research, and then
they'll, you go into production and,like, why does production take forever?
And you just have to explain in terms ofwhat you're trying to get accomplished
and how you're gonna pull it out.
And so oftentimes what I find myselflearning is that you have to bring
(18:34):
your C-level onto the journey.
And I always like to do, like,here's critical milestones.
Hey, we learned this from this focusgroup in the United States and in Europe.
Here's what we're learning.
It didn't necessarily, necessarilyalign to our hypothesis.
We think we're gonna pivot.
Here are three options.
What are your thoughts?
Erica Seidel (18:51):
Hmm.
Sandra Lopez (18:51):
So now a person's, like, actually joining you
on your journey and as part.
And you help educate along the way.
So you've gotta look at thesebig, strategic initiatives as
opportunities to help educateand bring them along the journey.
And I always do check checkpoints.
And I know sometimes my team members arelike, you're slowing down the process
because you're sitting down with yourC, you know, C-level, and I'm like, no,
(19:12):
actually I'm speeding up the process.
So when we're down the road andmy CEO has some feedback, which
requires us to go back and redoproduction, that elongates the process.
So, thinking about these check-ins withyour senior leadership is important.
Erica Seidel (19:27):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (19:28):
Realize it's always an education and ask a lot of
questions like, why do you thinkfocus groups should take point?
How do you think the process is?
Erica Seidel (19:37):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (19:38):
Well, let me tell you why the process is the way
it's, it is, and we're learning andadjusting and we'll do technology
to move the process much faster.
It used to be, you know, eightmonths, now we're doing five months.
So I, I do think, like, also askingwhy do they believe something should
be done a certain way helps striveself-awareness that they really
don't understand the underpinnings.
Erica Seidel (19:59):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That's really smart.
And the, the idea that people don'tlearn something in half an hour, right?
It's like in, in the way you educatesomebody is not by saying like,
everything you're doing is wrong.
This is how you should do it.
It's, it's almost like you kind ofsidle up to them and you're like, oh,
eight out the ten things, ten waysyou see this are right, and then here
are the remaining two need to be, youknow, kind of adjusted in this way.
Sandra Lopez (20:22):
I do think it's much more of a discussion.
Listen, you're on the same team.
I mean, fundamentally like you andyour leadership are on the same team
and you're creating the playbook.
And so sometimes like theplaybook, like, oh, you know what?
Your C-level has a point of viewthat I could have overlooked.
And you're like, you know what?
Your point's extremely valid.
I'm gonna take that in.
Erica Seidel (20:40):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (20:40):
And in some cases, they have a very strong point of
view, and based on all your historyand knowledge, you're like, this is
gonna send us in the wrong direction.
And you just have to take time andsay, let me show you the pros and cons.
Erica Seidel (20:51):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (20:51):
What I've learned is like, don't say no right
away to your leadership.
Provide the framework, help themunderstand so that you can land in
the best outcome for the shareholders.
I always say, like, at the end ofthe day, we're on the same team.
It's about the shareholders, and whenI say shareholders, it's the, your
employees, the C-level, the Board ofDirectors, if you have stock, you know?
Erica Seidel (21:13):
Mm-hmm.
Let me segue a little bit here, andI would love to hear your thoughts
about nonprofit Boards as a wayfor marketing leaders to kind of
get some practice and transitiontowards being on for-profit Boards.
Sandra Lopez (21:28):
Listen, I've had amazing mentors helping me guide me through
the path to Board of Directors.
And I started, I was three yearsbefore I landed my first Board.
And everybody has a different pointof view, everybody's gonna advise you.
And so again, I'm gonnaprovide one perspective.
I was o- open to a nonprofit Board,but I've also worked on nonprofits
(21:49):
before in terms of giving my time.
Erica Seidel (21:51):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (21:52):
And so you have to pick judiciously.
What do you wanna get out of it?
So I wanted to get my practice in a,yes, I've done some Board readiness
programs, but nothing, like, youcan do all the training, but it's
nothing like showing up and planning.
Erica Seidel (22:06):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (22:06):
And so, I looked at who was leading the Board.
I looked at the Board composition,and they were all highly successful
C-level executives that have Boardexperience of private and public.
And I knew that in how they runtheir operations gave me the feeling
of a private and/or public Board.
(22:28):
So I decided to do that.
That was the right thing for me.
And so when I tell people, like,really think about the Board that
you wanna join your first one.
Look at what you'retrying to get out of it.
And so in this profit one, italigns to my values in giving
back to the future generation.
So synergistically, I'm like,yes, love Junior Achievement.
They were part of my lifewhen I was growing up.
(22:49):
Two, I look at the composition.
What does it look like?
And three, how do they function?
And they function veryakin to a private Board.
And so that gives me the exposure, theexperience, and bringing that value to
another private Board in terms of justgetting that practice in and knowing what
I'm responsible for as Board of Directors.
Erica Seidel (23:11):
How did you figure out how they functioned?
Sandra Lopez (23:14):
There's a lot of Board readiness curriculum
that exists out there.
Erica Seidel (23:18):
Sure.
Sandra Lopez (23:18):
So you have the National Association of Corporate Directors.
You take a look at them.
They have some programs.
Julie, who's the CEO of How WeLead here in San Francisco, has
a robust Board readiness program.
And you learn.
You learn what's expected of you.
You also learn the liability that youhave for publicly traded companies.
You also learn the time required.
(23:38):
Everybody's, like, thinks that you'regonna be there for the one supporter.
And no, it's a lot morethat you have to contribute.
You have to be well-read.
You have to read the materials in advance.
You have most, part of a committee.
So if you're part of the committee, youhave to meet outside of the Board meeting.
And so my recommendation is participatein Board readiness programs.
Erica Seidel (24:02):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (24:02):
And you'll meet, will build your network and some of them will
land Boards and a lot of that landinga Board is not dissimilar from a job in
terms of the power of the networking.
If somebody's gonna recommendyou for a particular Board,
and that's how the doors open.
So both of the Boards that I'velanded have been part of my network.
Erica Seidel (24:21):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (24:22):
Not been me necessarily knowing that Board positions open and
reaching out to the CEO and the chairman.
It has been through my network.
Erica Seidel (24:31):
Let's talk about interviewing with Boards, like whether
that's for a Board seat or a CMO seat.
How should they, uh, kind of prepare?
How should they appear, and what questionsmight be most, you know, surprising,
you know, based on your experience?
Sandra Lopez (24:44):
At least in my experience, it's so different
from delay landing you a job.
Erica Seidel (24:50):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (24:50):
Because they've already identified you based
on the background and pedigree.
In most cases, they already know, and thatyou've already been highly recommended
by somebody in your network that, youknow, Sandra would be a very great fit.
Here's her pedigree.
Here's what she's done.
She's really great fordigital transformation.
You know, she's an advocate forthe underrepresented community,
and so she can add value from anpeople, culture standpoint as well.
(25:13):
They know you're background.
Erica Seidel (25:15):
Right.
Sandra Lopez (25:15):
It is all pretty much done.
So you're just sitting there and you'rehaving conversations just to see can,
can I sit there with you for a couplehours and have meaningful business
conversations during the Board meeting?
Can I sit there and have thatdinner conversation with you?
Oftentimes, there's a dinnerthe day before, the night of.
It's about clicking.
You have to click as a Board andyou are also personality wise, can I
(25:41):
get along with the various members?
And you interview with a couple, you know,not all of 'em, and you have conversations
about your personal life, philosophies.
And I would, what I'd suggestis like just be yourself.
Just be yourself.
They'll get to know you.
They're just getting to know you.
You're getting to know them.
Yes, prepare about the company.
People will say, take every Boardinterview because you expand your network.
(26:03):
I've taken a different approach, likeI've, people reached out to me for
various Board positions and I rememberone, it was all about supply chain
and it was about transportation.
And I was so honored that theyconsidered me and they were considering
me from a digital transformation,but I was looking at the Board
requirements and the skillsets thatthey were looking for, the top three,
and I'm like, I have none of that.
(26:23):
And I said to the, uh, individualthat was recruiting for him,
I'm like, you know what?
Super honored.
Yet it's not gonna be the rightfit because I will not add
value for what they're lookingfor from a talent perspective.
And yes, could I appreciatenetworking with them?
Yeah.
But I'm also, time is very, it'sthe most precious commodity.
If I already know I'm not gonna bethe right fit, I decided to bow out.
(26:46):
And so people are gonnagive you different advice.
Other people would say, like,you should have taken, you know,
you should have gone through theinterview process and met more people.
And I'm like, that's okay.
The time is too precious.
So we have all different ways of howto land Boards and recommendations.
Mine is one recommendation of manyon your journey to be a Board member.
Then, I would say, lookat the requirements.
(27:07):
Know what your contributionis going to be.
Erica Seidel (27:09):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (27:10):
Be very crystal clear about that because they're gonna
look to your filling an importantrole and oftentimes when, in some
of the Boards they're gonna pay you.
Think about the ROIthat you're delivering.
Are they getting every dime's worthout of what they're compensating
you for to be at Board of Directors?
Erica Seidel (27:29):
Yeah, and I feel it's the same thing when you're
interviewing for a CMO job, right?
If you get a, a, you know, approachedabout a job and it's not quite the right
fit for you, it's probably better to kindof educate whoever it is, the recruiter,
the CEO, you know, whatever, because it's,it's, it's like good karma, you know?
Like you, you know, the personmight then say, oh, okay, this
is maybe not the right fit.
(27:50):
But then there's something else that,you know, like the recruit, like
I've had that conversation with, withcandidates where they're like, okay, no,
sounds like you're looking for A, B, C.
I'm more X, Y, Z, and then I mightcall them up in a month, like,
oh, actually you said X, Y, Z.
You clarified and, and youknow, here we have something
that's a little more aligned.
Sandra Lopez (28:07):
A hundred percent agree with you.
Very, I mean, I think ultimately youwanna set yourself up for success.
You wanna land a Board seat, sothen you're recommending somebody
else for yet another Board seat.
And that's how the flywheel affects.
Erica Seidel (28:19):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (28:19):
And eventually, like, you know, we retire from your full-time job.
And so when you're looking for Boardseats, you also, like, try to find
somebody, it's called "over-Boarded"where some, somebody has way too
many Boards and Board opportunitieswill come to him, she, her, they.
Erica Seidel (28:35):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (28:35):
And they'll say, I'm already like, I'm Boarded up.
And then they'll say, hey, but Iknow somebody else that's interested.
Erica Seidel (28:40):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (28:40):
And so look for those individuals that are Boarded up
that are passing on opportunitiescuz they have too many Boards.
That's a great way just tostart to open up the doors.
Erica Seidel (28:51):
Oh yeah.
Boarded up.
That's funny.
Yeah, and I, it's funny you say thatcuz I give that same feedback to
people who are looking for CMO jobs.
I say like, you know, identify, youknow, I don't know, three, five,
ten CMOs who have the job you want.
Sandra Lopez (29:04):
Right.
Erica Seidel (29:04):
Because they're probably going to get pinged about
roles that you would want too.
And maybe they don't want that roleor the timing isn't right or the
location isn't right or whatever.
But you know, you want them to pass on toyou what they are saying no to themselves.
And it's, and it's, it's funny.
And you say that system to peopleand people are like, oh, wow,
I hadn't thought about that.
So...[light laughing]
Sandra Lopez (29:26):
No, it's true.
And you're absolutely right.
Erica Seidel (29:28):
Any other thoughts about how a CMO should be
interviewing, uh, with the Board?
Aside, aside from, you know, kind ofmaking sure that there is that click
and aside from, you know, having the,the things that you wanna get out of it.
Anything else that a CMO shouldbe kind of alert to as they're
interviewing with a Board?
Sandra Lopez (29:48):
I would say, like, have the conversation around like, hey,
there's not a lot of CMOs in Board seats.
Why is that?
Erica Seidel (29:55):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (29:55):
What are you guys looking for?
Erica Seidel (29:56):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (29:57):
Why are you considering myself that has a pedigree?
And what is of interest to you?
Like those, I think those are interesting,very interesting conversations.
Erica Seidel (30:04):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (30:05):
Oftentimes as CMOs, like one thing that we've had to go
through over the last decade or soor more is digital transformation.
That is a skill set that manycompanies continue to look for.
Erica Seidel (30:20):
Right.
Sandra Lopez (30:20):
And so think about like, let's put like that part of your job.
You could add value, like to helpme understand where the organization
is from a digital transformation.
Hey, I have expertise in X, Y, Z.
Do you think that could be of valueto the organization or the Board?
So I would say digital transformation isa hot skillset that all industries are
(30:43):
looking for to see and understand, andwe as marketers have had to go through.
And then the other thing too, likeit's often overlooked that I would say
great marketers, agnostic of B2B andB2C, we know where the puck is going.
We're very in tune with like societyand human beings and how they
interact and how they like to buy.
(31:05):
That intuition, a CFO does not usually-maybe a CEO from a visionary standpoint.
Steve Jobs is a perfect example.
But we as marketers have such a solidunderstanding and saying, do you
understand what's about to happen toyour business with generative AI and
what we're seeing and how it's gonnaimpact the- your customer set, and/or
(31:28):
you internally within the organizationand driving those type of conversations.
Those are really good in terms ofbringing that expertise that you have
as a marketer around culture, society,buying habits that helps inform when
a company's going through, like,an organizational transformation.
Erica Seidel (31:46):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (31:46):
And oftentimes we're finding ourselves going through organizational
transformation at an accelerated rate.
We just got outta Covid.
We tried to figure out hybrid.
We're still trying to figure out hybrid.
And now generative AI is onthe horizon, so it's nonstop.
Your value will always be there,and I think a lot of it is framing
of the conversation that we asmarketers need to do a better job on.
Erica Seidel (32:10):
My final question is just any thoughts on how we can
increase that proportion of Boardseats that are filled by marketers?
Sandra Lopez (32:17):
I just don't hear that the marketing community talking about it.
It's ironic.
I was at, on a, a podcast and we weretalking about this very, and I, I
rarely, when I interact with my fellowmarketing colleagues at various levels,
Boards are not on their list of kindof professional development lately.
And I'm like, well, why not?
So I think we as marketers havethe opportunity to drive a greater
(32:41):
conversation at the various marketingconferences that exist in terms of
why CMOs need to have a seat at thetable from a Board perspective and
articulating the business rationale.
I just don't, I don't hear it.
Erica Seidel (32:52):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (32:53):
And you look at marketing conferences that exist and the CMO
Council and all the, we know togetherfrom a smaller community, and I look
at the paneling, I look at programming.
When have you seen programmingaround why don't CMOs have a seat
at the table of Board of Directors?
It's rare.
I don't think I've ever seen it.
Erica Seidel (33:12):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (33:13):
And so I think it starts with us in terms of
driving the conversation and thenchallenging the industry at large.
I mean, we're marketers.
We can come up, if we can unify andcome up with campaigning and get
executive recruiters and get, you know,chairmen and CEOs to think about us.
Erica Seidel (33:30):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (33:31):
Maybe we'd see more from forty.
Like, you know, I'm a very big, like, OKR,KPI, can, so we have forty now, can we,
can we look at let's adding twenty more.
Erica Seidel (33:40):
Right.
Sandra Lopez (33:41):
By the end of the year.
Erica Seidel (33:43):
Right.
Sandra Lopez (33:43):
And the only way do that is through creating, which we
all know, awareness and convertingawareness to action, which is landing
a couple of people on Board seats.
So I'm happy to assist, provide guidance.
I'm a very big believer that weneed more marketers in Board seats.
That is part of diversity of thought.
We talk about Board composition and weneed diversity anchored on ethnicity.
Erica Seidel (34:05):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (34:06):
I think ethnicity, disability.
And different functions represented.
Erica Seidel (34:13):
Makes sense.
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much forjoining this show, Sandra.
It's been great to have you.
Sandra Lopez (34:18):
Likewise.
Thank you so much, Erica.
Thank you for leaning in and helpingdrive awareness and hopefully
we'll see twenty more CMOs on Boardseats by the end of the, the year.
Erica Seidel (34:26):
That's the KPI.
All right.
Awesome.
Sandra Lopez, thank you.
That was Sandra Lopez.
Now that you've heard from her, thinkabout what steps you can take this year
to prepare yourself for Board service.
And how can you add to the momentum ofmore marketing leaders in Board seats?
Next time on The Get,your guest will be me.
(34:49):
We're going to review the top themesfrom this season, the key ahas and
tips on how CMOs can best interact withBoards from before they join a company
to while they're in the CMO seat,to when they join Boards themselves.
Don't miss it.
Thanks for listening to The Get.
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
The Get is here to drive smartdecisions around recruiting and
(35:11):
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
We explore the trends, tribulations,and triumphs of today's top
marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
If you liked thisepisode, please share it.
For more about The Get,visit thegetpodcast.com.
To learn more about my executive searchpractice, which focuses on recruiting the
make-money marketing leaders rather thanthe make-it-pretty ones, follow me on
(35:34):
LinkedIn or visit theconnectivegood.com.
The Get is produced by Evo Terraof Simpler Media Productions.
Hello, and welcome to The Get.
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
This season we examine therelationship between CMOs and Boards.
How can that relationship gofrom fraught to functional,
and maybe even to fantastic?
Today, we hear from Sandra Lopez.
She is a marketing dynamo who has been inmarketing, leadership, and general manager
(00:23):
roles in many of the world's biggestand most influential tech companies
like Adobe, Intel, and Microsoft.
She recently served as co-chairfor the World Economic Forum for
Augmented Reality and Virtual Reality.
She also serves on the Board of Directorsfor Junior Achievement USA and PureRED.
She's an advisor for CabraSports and is the co-chair for
(00:45):
Sports Integrity Global Alliance.
You'll hear about how to educate the Boardon how long things take in marketing.
As she says, it's hard to educatesomeone in thirty minutes, so
you have to think creatively.
You'll also learn about how toprepare for a Board position and
how to put your best foot forwardwhen you interview with a Board.
And, we discuss how nonprofit Boardwork, chosen wisely, can be a great
(01:07):
segue to for-profit Board work.
Here we go.
Sandra Lopez, welcome to the show.
Glad to have you on The Get andexcited to hear your perspectives.
Sandra Lopez (01:21):
Thank you for having me on board.
Looking forward tohaving this conversation.
Erica Seidel (01:24):
Maybe you could just start by sharing an overview of your
career path, cuz it's been such aninteresting path that you've followed.
You know, you know your B2B marketing, youknow your B2C marketing, you know brand,
you know demand, like the whole shebang.
Can you kind- kind of just, youknow, coalesce it a little bit?
Sandra Lopez (01:40):
I always like to say I was kind of born and bred in Silicon Valley,
so technology at the heart of everything.
And I always had the aspirationto be a Chief Marketing Officer.
And, without anybody telling meas a mentor or sponsor, I just
wanted to do my own journey.
I wanted to create my own music, andso I created my own songbook in terms
of what could that possibly look like.
(02:01):
And what I knew is that wheneverI became a CMO, I really wanted to
understand the various solutionsof what entailed marketing.
So I jumped from small companyto large company, did everything
from lead generation to brandstrategy, worked in New York
City, came back to Silicon Valley.
(02:21):
And so I would say that my careertrajectory, I always have to
say the analogy, in, like, ways.
I directionally knew where I wantedto go, but I also allowed myself to
explore the unexpected neighborhoods.
And that's where I did a pivotinto the business unit, running a
division, in particular wearables.
And then I went into sports media.
(02:42):
And a couple things Ilearned from that pivot.
One, I learned things about myselfthat I didn't know I was capable of,
whether it's business development,effectively managing a P&L.
And then how important it was tounderstand business language when
it came to leading a marketingorganization and driving those
(03:04):
conversations to a C-level leadershipteam and/or your Board of Directors.
And so I'm unconventional.
Typically know where I wanna go,but I allow myself to explore
and, and I will continue to do so.
Erica Seidel (03:17):
I love this ways analogy.
I think that's great.
Do you think everybody who's anaspiring CMO should take a GM role,
or do you think it's, like, enough forthem to kind of take a GM perspective
within their marketing domain?
Sandra Lopez (03:33):
Listen, I think everybody has their own journey, and all I can share
is my particular point of view based onthe type of leader that I want to be.
So if I'm a CMO focused on tangiblebusiness, we know that oftentimes when
we're on an economic pitch, what happens?
Your budget's decreased, headcountmarketing's one of the first organizations
(03:57):
that are going to be impacted.
But if you change the conversationand be able to illustrate how
marketing drove tangible growthand/or helped enter into adjacent
markets, I do believe understandingrunning a P&L is very, very important.
You're much more attuned to,we're gonna do a brand strategy.
(04:17):
Let's think about potential ASP uplift.
Let's do some financial modeling,work very closely with the CFO.
Um, and not working closely withthe CFO in the context of like,
what's your, you know, abovethe line, below the line budget.
It's a very different conversation.
If you wanna be a CMO that's reallyleaning into creativity, then maybe
(04:38):
not necessarily you don't have tobecome a GM and you're looking at
more psychology, sociology, andbecoming much more of a culturist.
So I think it really depends onwhat type of CMO you wanna be.
And I try to do a hybrid of growththat in order to be a great CMO,
you need to understand your consumerand where they're going and what's
happening around them, both for businesscustomer and/or a consumer customer.
(05:03):
And at the same time really understandinglike, how do you drive marketing as a P&L?
Erica Seidel (05:10):
Makes sense.
Can you share, since we're talkinga lot about, you know, CMOs and
Board relationships, can you sharea hard-won lesson you have had, um,
from interacting with, with a Board?
Any Board?
Sandra Lopez (05:21):
I always like to say strategy without
execution's pure hallucination.
So I like to be a strategist andbe able to execute with my team.
The role of a Board of Directors is askthe hard questions so you can help guide
them and advise them towards, you know,their overall trajectory in terms of
whatever their strategic imperatives are.
And so moving from the doing andadvising and knowing when to step
(05:43):
back has been the mental rigor andchallenge that I've had to take on.
So it's really about asking the rightquestions and providing point of view,
and, ultimately, it's the C-level andthe leadership team that have to decide
what's best for the organization.
So that shift was a struggle for me, andI still find myself sometimes wanting
(06:06):
to, like, roll up my sleeves, help drivesome of the strategies to execution.
Erica Seidel (06:11):
Is there something you tell yourself when you're worried that
you're gonna kind of dive into executionand, and, but you want, really wanna
come up with a good question instead?
Sandra Lopez (06:20):
Yeah.
I have to remind myself every singletime when I'm either part of the
committee conversation and/or at theBoard meeting, and we're having the
one-to-one with the CEO, remember, myresponsibility and accountability is to
advise them towards the right path basedon the goals that we have all agreed to,
and knowing when to take a step back.
(06:41):
And so I do that inevery single interaction.
A lot of it's just practicing, right?
So I'm fairly new about a, you know,over a year in, in Junior Achievement,
which is a nonprofit, less thana year with the private Board.
And I do think it takesconditioning just like anything.
And so I'm just, you know, practicingmy trade, learning how to be the
(07:02):
best Board of Directors for thecompanies that I said I would like to
participate and believe I can add value.
Erica Seidel (07:09):
Can you talk about how you've educated a Board about marketing,
if you have, and what that looks like?
What teaching like, because many,many Board members don't have
marketing backgrounds and they mightthink that they know more about
marketing than they actually do.
Sandra Lopez (07:23):
Right.
Interesting.
And we were talking about this earlier,that apparently there's only about
forty Board members with marketingpedigree for Fortune 1000 and above.
And so it's not familiar withthe Board of Directors, right?
There's a lot of people, theCEO, supply chain officers.
And so when you're asking questions whenit comes to marketing, this is where my
(07:46):
P&L general management come into play.
I don't ask the traditionalbrand awareness questions.
I think about, let's take a look atour revenue growth year projection.
So I translate a lot of what isimportant to marketing in the language
that will be familiar to CEOs, CFO.
(08:07):
Cuz you have to remember, like yourBoard of Directors and your fellow
colleagues come from a different pedigree.
And so as a CMO marketer, you findyourself oftentimes translating the
language of marketing into vocabularyin which the CFO and CEO can really get
behind and lean into the conversation.
The worst thing is you bring a pointand everybody just dismisses you.
Erica Seidel (08:30):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (08:30):
And so how do you bring a point that has people thinking and really
leaning in so that we can advise theCEO and/or the leadership team in terms
of possible paths to move forward with?
Erica Seidel (08:43):
And do you feel like CEOs and CFOs sometimes glom onto certain
terms of marketing but not others?
You know, so in another one of thesepodcasts we talked about how there
are some terms that people just get.
You know, they get ICP, they get persona.
They get positioning more thanthey get branding, you know?
And, and have you, have you foundthat to be the case where there's,
(09:03):
like, some terms that, that fly andthat other marketing terms just flop?
Sandra Lopez (09:09):
I mean, I think it's one of those things that's just
the perception that we have, right?
So I do believe what transpires isthere's a perception of marketing.
Marketing is about value proposition,positioning, logos, the PowerPoint
presentation, helping sales sell n.
And that's all familiar.
(09:29):
And where you start to kind of gloss overis when you start to think about, uh,
you know, they're all familiar with CTR.
They've evolved one part of thedigital transformation, but you
start to think about well, long-termvalue to customer acquisition,
and then you start to translatethat and a CFO gets it right away.
So I do think there is this bias,you know, talking about customer
(09:53):
segmentation and new customer.
They get all of that.
Erica Seidel (09:55):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (09:56):
And then the question is, well, how is that going to translate
to meaningful business impact?
Cuz oftentimes in the Board ofDirectors, you're there to help grow.
Erica Seidel (10:03):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (10:04):
And so when you're thinking about questions that you wanna ask,
and I oftentimes think about like,how am I gonna frame this question-
Erica Seidel (10:11):
Hmm.
Sandra Lopez (10:12):
-so that the CEOs of other companies that are part
of Board of Directors or CEOsunderstand what I'm trying to get at?
Erica Seidel (10:20):
Mm-hmm.
Is there any other exampleof, like, a before and after
framing that comes to mind?
Sandra Lopez (10:26):
It's easy to say, hey, we're gonna go upmarket and reach a
particular new customer sec- section.
Erica Seidel (10:32):
Sure.
Sandra Lopez (10:33):
And I'm just gonna be careful I'm not disclosing
information of confidential, so I'llgive you just like a generic example.
We're gonna go after this new customersegment and then the question will
be, well, let's think about thatsegment and the cost of entry.
Right?
What will be the ROI?
What is the additional revenuethat could be generated if we're
(10:54):
gonna bring on this new customers?
This customer segment carries this.
This is the demographics.
This is the attitudes.
This is what we think of themarket opportunity at a high level.
But like you gotta keep on pushing.
Erica Seidel (11:05):
Hmm.
Sandra Lopez (11:06):
Yeah, this is maybe a market size that represents
$1 billion, potentially.
That's a total tamp.
But how, have we done the analysisof what this segment will bring from
additive revenue over the next five years?
How much do we need to invest?
What does that investmentstrategy look like?
(11:27):
So that goes back to the the,to eventually capture that.
What happens from anoperations standpoint?
What happens from customer service?
This new customer segment isradically different from our current
customer base, which means thatwe have to operate differently.
So this is not just an exercisearound new customer segmentation.
This is like operations.
(11:47):
You have to think about customer service.
There are so many elements that comeinto play, and so that's one example
that I always like to use is that it'seasy to have the CMO come in, talk
about new market segment, and thenit's your job as a Board of Directors.
And being a marketer, like many ofus have gone through this before.
We know that it's just much morethan doing effective direct marketing
(12:09):
and using digital marketing.
There are elements that come intoplay that touch other organizations.
Erica Seidel (12:14):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (12:15):
So really thinking about that and kind of framing
those conversations is like anotherexample that I like to use, typically
marketers are really good at, isin terms of knowing your customer,
what does segmentation look like?
But what does it really mean toenter into that market segment?
Erica Seidel (12:31):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (12:31):
Do you need to hire different types of personnel in terms
of driving conversations with them?
So really framing it, going backto, I always like to say, like, you
just go back to think like a CFO.
Erica Seidel (12:43):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (12:43):
I think that really helps.
And we, because we have only fortyor so CMOs in the Board of Directors,
we have the responsibility on ourshoulders to illustrate that we
can drive very meaningful business.
Erica Seidel (12:58):
Have you seen a really good way of learning how to
be that CMO who thinks like a CFO?
You know, is it shadowing the CFO?
Is it, um, I, I don't know.
Like, asking for, you know, like,you know, sharing goals and, and,
and coming up with some kind of,like, translation dictionary or
something like, like, like is thereanything that comes to mind there?
Sandra Lopez (13:20):
I love all your ideas.
So shadowing's always great.
And then oftentimes, you know,they're not necessarily available
cuz you have a busy calendar.
So you have to kind of be realisticin terms of what's feasible.
And so if you think about an exercisethat you're doing in marketing, so
let's think about the hottest thingin performance based marketing.
Erica Seidel (13:37):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (13:38):
Right?
Everybody's talking about that.
It requires digital transformation,which oftentimes means you
need to sit down with your CTO.
Can you sit down with your CFO andagree on the L to beta cap ratio?
What does that mean?
And what does that look like?
Can you start modeling P&Ls?
I always like to tell individuals, kindof hate the word performance marketing,
(13:58):
cuz the reality is you're a mini GM.
You're responsible for revenue andhitting targets, and in order to
drive performance-based marketing,you have a Mar- MarTech stack
that's underneath, which actuallycosts me whether it's licensing-
Erica Seidel (14:12):
Right.
Sandra Lopez (14:12):
Whether you're working with your IT department to build out
some technology and features, whichthey're gonna charge back to you.
And so that to me is like, it's thespirit of like, there's cost, there's
revenue, there's efficiencies, and there'smargins that you have to [inaudible].
So performance-based marketers,to me, I always tell 'em like,
you guys are running a P&L.
Like reframe what youraccountability responsibility is.
(14:37):
And I know if you have, if you'reco-dependent, if you have a sales
department and they're not gettingthe lead flow, they're gonna point
fingers at you because they need that.
And so you're directly tied to revenue.
And so that's one example that Ithink you can sit there with your
CFO and you bring them along thejourney and build a relationship.
And so you have to meet with yourCFO then on a monthly basis and/or
(15:00):
like a weekly basis, depending onhow you're looking at your numbers.
And then you start to, like, havethose times to ask curiosity and
ask them about different things.
Oftentimes, when you are looking atbrand architecture strategies and
you're redeveloping an entire, you havemultiple logos you're trying to simplify.
Erica Seidel (15:17):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (15:18):
Will that impact in terms of lesser choice?
Is it gonna cannibalizeone or the other products?
That's yet another opportunity tobring a CFO into the journey and talk
about, let's do some modeling together.
Oftentimes what I had seen isbrand architecture strategies that
talk about the business rationale,but there's no financial number.
(15:41):
They'll talk to you about what it'sgonna cost, what it's gonna cost to
overhaul the entire thing and allthe collateral that needs to get
updated, both analog and digital.
Yet I never see if we were tosimplify the brand, what could this
look like on the financial side?
Or if we're gonna do a massivebrand transition and reposition
the brand in its totality from onepoint to another point, will it
(16:06):
alienate your existing customer base?
And if so, well what, what couldthat be from a sales perspective?
So you can model all this stuff.
You can, sitting down with the CMO,there are tools and there abilities.
I've done this before.
Erica Seidel (16:16):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (16:17):
And so I would say to any CMO or any marketing person that's eager
to go into a Board seat and starting to,like, practice the language of the CFOs,
take some existing projects where you'relike, wow, if I were to do this with a
CFO, what could we model financially?
Erica Seidel (16:33):
Hmm.
Sandra Lopez (16:34):
And then over time, your CFO becomes your mentor and an advisor to you.
And, and that's what happened to mewhen I was at Intel I had an invi-
individual helped guide me as we weregoing through marketing strategy,
repositioning efforts, and reallyunderstanding the overall business.
Erica Seidel (16:49):
So CMOs can fail, as you know, um, because Boards and
CEOs have these expectations of,you know, you should be able to do
marketing, you know, overnight andturn around something overnight.
And then CMOs, so there's thisdebate about, you know, like,
oh, you should do this faster.
And then a CMO will say,oh, it, it takes time.
How do you think marketing leaders cankind of manage those expectations with
(17:10):
Boards about how long things take?
Sandra Lopez (17:13):
You're absolutely right.
Uh, there's a lot of educationand oftentimes, we've had this
conversation in the past, thateverybody feels they can do marketing.
Erica Seidel (17:21):
Yes.
Sandra Lopez (17:22):
You know, I learned a framework that I thought was very helpful
that came from [inaudible], which isthe strategic decision-making framework.
If you're going on a journey andyou're seeking to solve a problem,
oftentimes, like, your C-level, andyourself, you're not on the same page
of what problem you're trying to solve.
So go in and understand, like,what problem are we solving?
Are we, are we on the same position?
Erica Seidel (17:42):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (17:42):
The other thing, too, is, like, and what are the milestones?
Here's why it takes time todo market research, right?
Erica Seidel (17:48):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (17:49):
We want to capture, not only part of our customer segment,
we are a global brand by very nature.
We have to go to Europe, wehave to go to, like, Asia, and
we want to enlarge sampling.
And we also wanna pivot along theway as we're learning about some
research around specific focus groups.
And we wanna get this right.
Because once you get the idea, thenyou go into execution and it's gonna
(18:11):
cost much more if we get it wrong.
So there's going to be five-monthwindow of market research, and then
they'll, you go into production and,like, why does production take forever?
And you just have to explain in terms ofwhat you're trying to get accomplished
and how you're gonna pull it out.
And so oftentimes what I find myselflearning is that you have to bring
(18:34):
your C-level onto the journey.
And I always like to do, like,here's critical milestones.
Hey, we learned this from this focusgroup in the United States and in Europe.
Here's what we're learning.
It didn't necessarily, necessarilyalign to our hypothesis.
We think we're gonna pivot.
Here are three options.
What are your thoughts?
Erica Seidel (18:51):
Hmm.
Sandra Lopez (18:51):
So now a person's, like, actually joining you
on your journey and as part.
And you help educate along the way.
So you've gotta look at thesebig, strategic initiatives as
opportunities to help educateand bring them along the journey.
And I always do check checkpoints.
And I know sometimes my team members arelike, you're slowing down the process
because you're sitting down with yourC, you know, C-level, and I'm like, no,
(19:12):
actually I'm speeding up the process.
So when we're down the road andmy CEO has some feedback, which
requires us to go back and redoproduction, that elongates the process.
So, thinking about these check-ins withyour senior leadership is important.
Erica Seidel (19:27):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (19:28):
Realize it's always an education and ask a lot of
questions like, why do you thinkfocus groups should take point?
How do you think the process is?
Erica Seidel (19:37):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (19:38):
Well, let me tell you why the process is the way
it's, it is, and we're learning andadjusting and we'll do technology
to move the process much faster.
It used to be, you know, eightmonths, now we're doing five months.
So I, I do think, like, also askingwhy do they believe something should
be done a certain way helps striveself-awareness that they really
don't understand the underpinnings.
Erica Seidel (19:59):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That's really smart.
And the, the idea that people don'tlearn something in half an hour, right?
It's like in, in the way you educatesomebody is not by saying like,
everything you're doing is wrong.
This is how you should do it.
It's, it's almost like you kind ofsidle up to them and you're like, oh,
eight out the ten things, ten waysyou see this are right, and then here
are the remaining two need to be, youknow, kind of adjusted in this way.
Sandra Lopez (20:22):
I do think it's much more of a discussion.
Listen, you're on the same team.
I mean, fundamentally like you andyour leadership are on the same team
and you're creating the playbook.
And so sometimes like theplaybook, like, oh, you know what?
Your C-level has a point of viewthat I could have overlooked.
And you're like, you know what?
Your point's extremely valid.
I'm gonna take that in.
Erica Seidel (20:40):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (20:40):
And in some cases, they have a very strong point of
view, and based on all your historyand knowledge, you're like, this is
gonna send us in the wrong direction.
And you just have to take time andsay, let me show you the pros and cons.
Erica Seidel (20:51):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (20:51):
What I've learned is like, don't say no right
away to your leadership.
Provide the framework, help themunderstand so that you can land in
the best outcome for the shareholders.
I always say, like, at the end ofthe day, we're on the same team.
It's about the shareholders, and whenI say shareholders, it's the, your
employees, the C-level, the Board ofDirectors, if you have stock, you know?
Erica Seidel (21:13):
Mm-hmm.
Let me segue a little bit here, andI would love to hear your thoughts
about nonprofit Boards as a wayfor marketing leaders to kind of
get some practice and transitiontowards being on for-profit Boards.
Sandra Lopez (21:28):
Listen, I've had amazing mentors helping me guide me through
the path to Board of Directors.
And I started, I was three yearsbefore I landed my first Board.
And everybody has a different pointof view, everybody's gonna advise you.
And so again, I'm gonnaprovide one perspective.
I was o- open to a nonprofit Board,but I've also worked on nonprofits
(21:49):
before in terms of giving my time.
Erica Seidel (21:51):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (21:52):
And so you have to pick judiciously.
What do you wanna get out of it?
So I wanted to get my practice in a,yes, I've done some Board readiness
programs, but nothing, like, youcan do all the training, but it's
nothing like showing up and planning.
Erica Seidel (22:06):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (22:06):
And so, I looked at who was leading the Board.
I looked at the Board composition,and they were all highly successful
C-level executives that have Boardexperience of private and public.
And I knew that in how they runtheir operations gave me the feeling
of a private and/or public Board.
(22:28):
So I decided to do that.
That was the right thing for me.
And so when I tell people, like,really think about the Board that
you wanna join your first one.
Look at what you'retrying to get out of it.
And so in this profit one, italigns to my values in giving
back to the future generation.
So synergistically, I'm like,yes, love Junior Achievement.
They were part of my lifewhen I was growing up.
(22:49):
Two, I look at the composition.
What does it look like?
And three, how do they function?
And they function veryakin to a private Board.
And so that gives me the exposure, theexperience, and bringing that value to
another private Board in terms of justgetting that practice in and knowing what
I'm responsible for as Board of Directors.
Erica Seidel (23:11):
How did you figure out how they functioned?
Sandra Lopez (23:14):
There's a lot of Board readiness curriculum
that exists out there.
Erica Seidel (23:18):
Sure.
Sandra Lopez (23:18):
So you have the National Association of Corporate Directors.
You take a look at them.
They have some programs.
Julie, who's the CEO of How WeLead here in San Francisco, has
a robust Board readiness program.
And you learn.
You learn what's expected of you.
You also learn the liability that youhave for publicly traded companies.
You also learn the time required.
(23:38):
Everybody's, like, thinks that you'regonna be there for the one supporter.
And no, it's a lot morethat you have to contribute.
You have to be well-read.
You have to read the materials in advance.
You have most, part of a committee.
So if you're part of the committee, youhave to meet outside of the Board meeting.
And so my recommendation is participatein Board readiness programs.
Erica Seidel (24:02):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (24:02):
And you'll meet, will build your network and some of them will
land Boards and a lot of that landinga Board is not dissimilar from a job in
terms of the power of the networking.
If somebody's gonna recommendyou for a particular Board,
and that's how the doors open.
So both of the Boards that I'velanded have been part of my network.
Erica Seidel (24:21):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (24:22):
Not been me necessarily knowing that Board positions open and
reaching out to the CEO and the chairman.
It has been through my network.
Erica Seidel (24:31):
Let's talk about interviewing with Boards, like whether
that's for a Board seat or a CMO seat.
How should they, uh, kind of prepare?
How should they appear, and what questionsmight be most, you know, surprising,
you know, based on your experience?
Sandra Lopez (24:44):
At least in my experience, it's so different
from delay landing you a job.
Erica Seidel (24:50):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (24:50):
Because they've already identified you based
on the background and pedigree.
In most cases, they already know, and thatyou've already been highly recommended
by somebody in your network that, youknow, Sandra would be a very great fit.
Here's her pedigree.
Here's what she's done.
She's really great fordigital transformation.
You know, she's an advocate forthe underrepresented community,
and so she can add value from anpeople, culture standpoint as well.
(25:13):
They know you're background.
Erica Seidel (25:15):
Right.
Sandra Lopez (25:15):
It is all pretty much done.
So you're just sitting there and you'rehaving conversations just to see can,
can I sit there with you for a couplehours and have meaningful business
conversations during the Board meeting?
Can I sit there and have thatdinner conversation with you?
Oftentimes, there's a dinnerthe day before, the night of.
It's about clicking.
You have to click as a Board andyou are also personality wise, can I
(25:41):
get along with the various members?
And you interview with a couple, you know,not all of 'em, and you have conversations
about your personal life, philosophies.
And I would, what I'd suggestis like just be yourself.
Just be yourself.
They'll get to know you.
They're just getting to know you.
You're getting to know them.
Yes, prepare about the company.
People will say, take every Boardinterview because you expand your network.
(26:03):
I've taken a different approach, likeI've, people reached out to me for
various Board positions and I rememberone, it was all about supply chain
and it was about transportation.
And I was so honored that theyconsidered me and they were considering
me from a digital transformation,but I was looking at the Board
requirements and the skillsets thatthey were looking for, the top three,
and I'm like, I have none of that.
(26:23):
And I said to the, uh, individualthat was recruiting for him,
I'm like, you know what?
Super honored.
Yet it's not gonna be the rightfit because I will not add
value for what they're lookingfor from a talent perspective.
And yes, could I appreciatenetworking with them?
Yeah.
But I'm also, time is very, it'sthe most precious commodity.
If I already know I'm not gonna bethe right fit, I decided to bow out.
(26:46):
And so people are gonnagive you different advice.
Other people would say, like,you should have taken, you know,
you should have gone through theinterview process and met more people.
And I'm like, that's okay.
The time is too precious.
So we have all different ways of howto land Boards and recommendations.
Mine is one recommendation of manyon your journey to be a Board member.
Then, I would say, lookat the requirements.
(27:07):
Know what your contributionis going to be.
Erica Seidel (27:09):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (27:10):
Be very crystal clear about that because they're gonna
look to your filling an importantrole and oftentimes when, in some
of the Boards they're gonna pay you.
Think about the ROIthat you're delivering.
Are they getting every dime's worthout of what they're compensating
you for to be at Board of Directors?
Erica Seidel (27:29):
Yeah, and I feel it's the same thing when you're
interviewing for a CMO job, right?
If you get a, a, you know, approachedabout a job and it's not quite the right
fit for you, it's probably better to kindof educate whoever it is, the recruiter,
the CEO, you know, whatever, because it's,it's, it's like good karma, you know?
Like you, you know, the personmight then say, oh, okay, this
is maybe not the right fit.
(27:50):
But then there's something else that,you know, like the recruit, like
I've had that conversation with, withcandidates where they're like, okay, no,
sounds like you're looking for A, B, C.
I'm more X, Y, Z, and then I mightcall them up in a month, like,
oh, actually you said X, Y, Z.
You clarified and, and youknow, here we have something
that's a little more aligned.
Sandra Lopez (28:07):
A hundred percent agree with you.
Very, I mean, I think ultimately youwanna set yourself up for success.
You wanna land a Board seat, sothen you're recommending somebody
else for yet another Board seat.
And that's how the flywheel affects.
Erica Seidel (28:19):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (28:19):
And eventually, like, you know, we retire from your full-time job.
And so when you're looking for Boardseats, you also, like, try to find
somebody, it's called "over-Boarded"where some, somebody has way too
many Boards and Board opportunitieswill come to him, she, her, they.
Erica Seidel (28:35):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (28:35):
And they'll say, I'm already like, I'm Boarded up.
And then they'll say, hey, but Iknow somebody else that's interested.
Erica Seidel (28:40):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (28:40):
And so look for those individuals that are Boarded up
that are passing on opportunitiescuz they have too many Boards.
That's a great way just tostart to open up the doors.
Erica Seidel (28:51):
Oh yeah.
Boarded up.
That's funny.
Yeah, and I, it's funny you say thatcuz I give that same feedback to
people who are looking for CMO jobs.
I say like, you know, identify, youknow, I don't know, three, five,
ten CMOs who have the job you want.
Sandra Lopez (29:04):
Right.
Erica Seidel (29:04):
Because they're probably going to get pinged about
roles that you would want too.
And maybe they don't want that roleor the timing isn't right or the
location isn't right or whatever.
But you know, you want them to pass on toyou what they are saying no to themselves.
And it's, and it's, it's funny.
And you say that system to peopleand people are like, oh, wow,
I hadn't thought about that.
So...[light laughing]
Sandra Lopez (29:26):
No, it's true.
And you're absolutely right.
Erica Seidel (29:28):
Any other thoughts about how a CMO should be
interviewing, uh, with the Board?
Aside, aside from, you know, kind ofmaking sure that there is that click
and aside from, you know, having the,the things that you wanna get out of it.
Anything else that a CMO shouldbe kind of alert to as they're
interviewing with a Board?
Sandra Lopez (29:48):
I would say, like, have the conversation around like, hey,
there's not a lot of CMOs in Board seats.
Why is that?
Erica Seidel (29:55):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (29:55):
What are you guys looking for?
Erica Seidel (29:56):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (29:57):
Why are you considering myself that has a pedigree?
And what is of interest to you?
Like those, I think those are interesting,very interesting conversations.
Erica Seidel (30:04):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (30:05):
Oftentimes as CMOs, like one thing that we've had to go
through over the last decade or soor more is digital transformation.
That is a skill set that manycompanies continue to look for.
Erica Seidel (30:20):
Right.
Sandra Lopez (30:20):
And so think about like, let's put like that part of your job.
You could add value, like to helpme understand where the organization
is from a digital transformation.
Hey, I have expertise in X, Y, Z.
Do you think that could be of valueto the organization or the Board?
So I would say digital transformation isa hot skillset that all industries are
(30:43):
looking for to see and understand, andwe as marketers have had to go through.
And then the other thing too, likeit's often overlooked that I would say
great marketers, agnostic of B2B andB2C, we know where the puck is going.
We're very in tune with like societyand human beings and how they
interact and how they like to buy.
(31:05):
That intuition, a CFO does not usually-maybe a CEO from a visionary standpoint.
Steve Jobs is a perfect example.
But we as marketers have such a solidunderstanding and saying, do you
understand what's about to happen toyour business with generative AI and
what we're seeing and how it's gonnaimpact the- your customer set, and/or
(31:28):
you internally within the organizationand driving those type of conversations.
Those are really good in terms ofbringing that expertise that you have
as a marketer around culture, society,buying habits that helps inform when
a company's going through, like,an organizational transformation.
Erica Seidel (31:46):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (31:46):
And oftentimes we're finding ourselves going through organizational
transformation at an accelerated rate.
We just got outta Covid.
We tried to figure out hybrid.
We're still trying to figure out hybrid.
And now generative AI is onthe horizon, so it's nonstop.
Your value will always be there,and I think a lot of it is framing
of the conversation that we asmarketers need to do a better job on.
Erica Seidel (32:10):
My final question is just any thoughts on how we can
increase that proportion of Boardseats that are filled by marketers?
Sandra Lopez (32:17):
I just don't hear that the marketing community talking about it.
It's ironic.
I was at, on a, a podcast and we weretalking about this very, and I, I
rarely, when I interact with my fellowmarketing colleagues at various levels,
Boards are not on their list of kindof professional development lately.
And I'm like, well, why not?
So I think we as marketers havethe opportunity to drive a greater
(32:41):
conversation at the various marketingconferences that exist in terms of
why CMOs need to have a seat at thetable from a Board perspective and
articulating the business rationale.
I just don't, I don't hear it.
Erica Seidel (32:52):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (32:53):
And you look at marketing conferences that exist and the CMO
Council and all the, we know togetherfrom a smaller community, and I look
at the paneling, I look at programming.
When have you seen programmingaround why don't CMOs have a seat
at the table of Board of Directors?
It's rare.
I don't think I've ever seen it.
Erica Seidel (33:12):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (33:13):
And so I think it starts with us in terms of
driving the conversation and thenchallenging the industry at large.
I mean, we're marketers.
We can come up, if we can unify andcome up with campaigning and get
executive recruiters and get, you know,chairmen and CEOs to think about us.
Erica Seidel (33:30):
Yeah.
Sandra Lopez (33:31):
Maybe we'd see more from forty.
Like, you know, I'm a very big, like, OKR,KPI, can, so we have forty now, can we,
can we look at let's adding twenty more.
Erica Seidel (33:40):
Right.
Sandra Lopez (33:41):
By the end of the year.
Erica Seidel (33:43):
Right.
Sandra Lopez (33:43):
And the only way do that is through creating, which we
all know, awareness and convertingawareness to action, which is landing
a couple of people on Board seats.
So I'm happy to assist, provide guidance.
I'm a very big believer that weneed more marketers in Board seats.
That is part of diversity of thought.
We talk about Board composition and weneed diversity anchored on ethnicity.
Erica Seidel (34:05):
Mm-hmm.
Sandra Lopez (34:06):
I think ethnicity, disability.
And different functions represented.
Erica Seidel (34:13):
Makes sense.
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much forjoining this show, Sandra.
It's been great to have you.
Sandra Lopez (34:18):
Likewise.
Thank you so much, Erica.
Thank you for leaning in and helpingdrive awareness and hopefully
we'll see twenty more CMOs on Boardseats by the end of the, the year.
Erica Seidel (34:26):
That's the KPI.
All right.
Awesome.
Sandra Lopez, thank you.
That was Sandra Lopez.
Now that you've heard from her, thinkabout what steps you can take this year
to prepare yourself for Board service.
And how can you add to the momentum ofmore marketing leaders in Board seats?
Next time on The Get,your guest will be me.
(34:49):
We're going to review the top themesfrom this season, the key ahas and
tips on how CMOs can best interact withBoards from before they join a company
to while they're in the CMO seat,to when they join Boards themselves.
Don't miss it.
Thanks for listening to The Get.
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
The Get is here to drive smartdecisions around recruiting and
(35:11):
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
We explore the trends, tribulations,and triumphs of today's top
marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
If you liked thisepisode, please share it.
For more about The Get,visit thegetpodcast.com.
To learn more about my executive searchpractice, which focuses on recruiting the
make-money marketing leaders rather thanthe make-it-pretty ones, follow me on
(35:34):
LinkedIn or visit theconnectivegood.com.
The Get is produced by Evo Terraof Simpler Media Productions.
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