August 15, 2024 • 36 mins
The best CEO/CMO matches are ones where, BEFORE day 1, both sides collaboratively, intentionally, and explicitly surface the challenges they will face together and how they will overcome them together. That's not as easy as it sounds, though!
In this episode of The Get, host Erica Seidel dives into the complexities of hiring CMOs in B2B SaaS companies. Drawing from her 13 years of experience in recruiting marketing leaders, Erica discusses the high risks and challenges faced by CEOs and investors during this process.
She is joined by James Lamberti, Head of Go-to-Market for Georgian, who shares his extensive experience in hiring and getting hired as a CMO.
You'll learn about:
- A method for collaborative de-risking between the CEO and CMO
- How one of the most important functions of the interview is to sketch out the company's GTM framework and identify any misalignment in GTM strategy.… because the more the company is clear on their GTM strategy, the more effective the CMO will be
- How to diagnose in the interview process when product-market fit is loosely held or when the market is defined too broadly
- The 'homework' that top CMO candidates will do ahead of their first meeting with a CEO, including defining their 'Ideal CEO Profile' and how to add value to that person
- How to identify and skirt typical threats to marketing being successful, including 'silver bullet expectations,' 'new day/new strategy' situations, under or over-hiring for the stage, and mis-selling the CMO opportunity
- What CEOs are likely to ask CMO candidates about AI
This episode is packed with valuable insights for both hiring leaders and candidates looking to navigate the high-stakes world of CMO recruitment.
00:00 Introduction: The Challenge of Hiring a CMO
01:20 Understanding the Risks in Hiring a CMO
03:25 Tips for CEOs and Investors on Hiring a CMO
04:50 Guest Introduction: James Lamberti
06:22 James Lamberti's Framework for Diagnosing a Role
17:25 Balancing Efficiency and Thoroughness in Interviews
22:57 The Importance of Customer Love and Rev Ops
25:53 Challenges and Red Flags in the Hiring Process
30:33 The Role of AI in Marketing Leadership
33:21 Favorite Interview Questions for Marketing Leaders
35:53 Conclusion and Next Episode Teaser
The Get is here to drive smart decisions around recruiting and leadership in B2B SaaS marketing. We explore the trends, tribulations, and triumphs of today’s top marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
This season’s theme is The Race to Reduce Risk in CMO Recruiting.
The Get’s host is Erica Seidel, who runs The Connective Good, an executive search practice with a hyper-focus on recruiting CMOs and VPs of Marketing, especially in B2B SaaS.
If you are looking to hire a CMO or VP of Marketing of the ‘make money’ variety - rather than the ‘make it pretty’ variety, contact Erica at erica@theconnectivegood.com. You can also follow Erica on LinkedIn or sign up for her newsletter at TheConnectiveGood.com.
The Get is produced by the team at Simpler Media Productions.
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I have been recruiting marketingleaders for thirteen years now.
(00:03):
There's one thing I've heard over andover again from CEOs and investors.
That's that of all the hiring theydo across the C-suite, hiring the
CMO is often the most challenging.
They perceive so much risk in hiring, andthey're often just scared of the process.
Today, we look at why thatis and how it can be easier.
Hello, and welcome to The Get.
(00:23):
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
I spend my days recruiting CMOsand VPs of Marketing in B2B SaaS.
My tagline is I place themake-money marketing leaders
and not the make-it-pretty ones.
With my role, I have a front-row seat tothe trends, tribulations, and triumphs of
today's top marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
And now with The Get you do, too.
(00:44):
The Get is designed to drive smartdecisions around recruiting and
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
This season, we focus on the raceto reduce risk when it comes to a
match between a company and a CMO.
How can you find out what you need tofind out before saying yes so that you
make a match that sticks and flourishes?
Today, I'll talk about what it'slike for people who are hiring a
(01:05):
CMO, CEOs, or investors primarily.
How is this process riskyfrom their perspective?
Then, I will bring on myguest, James Lamberti.
He will share his take on hiring CMOsand getting hired as a CMO, having
seen this across multiple companies.
Why is it hard to recruit a CMO?
First, there's just a lot at stake.
Marketing is often central to the thesisthat a company has for its growth journey.
(01:29):
The faster the company can get theright leader in, the faster they
can achieve their growth goals.
So the pressure is on.
But CEOs and investors tend to bemore knowledgeable about the role
of, say, a CFO or a product leader.
Their knowledge of marketingcan be comparatively lower.
It doesn't help that the job ofthe marketing leader is so varied.
CEOs and investors hiring for theCMO can struggle to figure out what
(01:53):
flavor of marketing leader they need.
And the pace of change is greater inmarketing than in some other functions.
The perception is that the roleis changing with new technologies
and ways to drive demand andcommunicate with a market.
I say perception since, of course,the fundamentals of marketing don't
change, but people who are lessfamiliar with marketing can find
(02:14):
it taxing to figure out what isfundamental and what is a shiny object.
They want the person who can applyAI and build an efficient MarTech
stack, but not the person who is goingto be so focused on new toys that
they get distracted or use up alltheir budget on experimental things.
It's also hard because marketinghas an impact across the company, so
(02:34):
that means everyone has an opinion.
And, of course, many companieshave had marketing hires not work
out, so they are wary, and they'relooking to mitigate their risk.
And, they do perceiverisk with the CMO hire.
They worry about a few things- that the person is going to
be all sizzle and no steak.
They worry that the CMO candidatewill tell great stories but not
(02:55):
be able to get their hands dirty.
They worry that the marketing leaderwill come in and focus so much
on brand and pictures and logosand not be able to drive demand.
This, by the way, comes because oftenthey can confuse strategic brands
- messaging and positioning, thingslike that - versus creative brand.
They wonder, also, aboutreporting structure.
(03:16):
What's in scope for themarketing leadership role?
Should BDRs report tomarketing or to sales?
Should product marketing reportto marketing or to product?
Et cetera.
Here are some tips for thoseCEOs and investors who are
nervous about hiring a CMO.
First, admit it if you need to learn.
One of my clients, who's an investor,said to me at one point, "Oh, Erica, I
(03:37):
don't know anything about marketing."
He was just very matter-of-fact,and he approached it with curiosity.
Our whole search, he just approached thewhole thing with a curiosity and learning
as opposed to trying to pass himselfoff as knowing a ton about marketing.
So there's really no shame in it.
I've even had plenty of CMO clientswho are hiring VPs of some functional
(03:57):
area look to the search process tounderstand the role that they're hiring
for and the different archetypes for it.
The next idea is take the time tolearn first and recruit second.
Look to the candidates and yourrecruiting partner to teach
you and to co-create the role.
They will help you figure out what typeof marketing leader would make sense.
Don't expect to get it rightin just a few candidates.
(04:19):
Often in CMO searches, there's a bitmore calibration than other roles, and
sometimes companies have to see, say,six candidates rather than three since
marketing is just so multifaceted.
And, beware hiring the person froma super sexy company, but one that's
at the wrong stage or was successfulwith a different go-to-market motion.
(04:40):
Like we've talked about before inother podcasts here, some companies
are successful because of theirmarketing leaders and others are
successful despite marketing.
With that, let's bring onmy guest, James Lamberti.
James is head of go-to-market forGeorgian, the firm that invests in
high-growth B2B software companies.
Previously, James served as CMO atseveral companies like SalesIntel,
(05:03):
Conviva, Applitools, and Quri.
James, thank you so much forjoining us and welcome to the show.
Great to be here, Erica.
Happy to talk today about de-riskinghiring for both CMOs and CEOs.
Awesome.
And I love your take on this, youknow, what's good for the goose
is good for the gander is kind ofwhat we've talked about before.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So before we get started, can you justexplain a little bit about your role
(05:27):
now and anything else that I missedin your background that you wanted to
-Yeah.
I think
-bring to light?
- you covered my background pretty well.
I started here at Georgian in mid-Marchand my role is to market the firm to
the larger investment community so thatpeople are aware and understand what
we do and who we are in that context.
Prior to joining an investment firm,I was an operator, as you mentioned,
(05:48):
in multiple growth stage companies,anywhere from five to a hundred million.
Often joining as the first,maybe second, go-to market
executive with a CEO and founder.
So I have a pretty, pretty goodperspective on this and I've
done it now seven times in a row.
Yes.
Awesome.
And yeah, I should say I've tried torecruit you a few different times and
(06:11):
I, and you also have a job that so manypeople would want, so it's very cool.
So let's get right into it.
I would love to talk about managingrisk, like we said, like on both
sides there's the hiring andthere's the getting hired side.
Let's just start with gettinghired because as you said, you've
led marketing or been head ofgo-to-market, many, many times now.
And a lot of people, they do it a fewtimes and they're like, no, never again.
(06:33):
And for you, you do like it.
So I imagine you have some kindof framework for diagnosing a role
and figuring out the mutual fit.
And would love for you to walk methrough the process that you follow.
Absolutely.
I do have a framework that Istarted pretty early on, maybe
going back almost fifteen years.
But going back to my first, reallymy first CMO title where I started
(06:56):
doing what I'm about to describe.
And really it's, I think it's morecommon now, but at the time it was
pretty novel and I really took on theinterview process as a consultant gig.
I really embraced the idea thatI'm going to play the role of a
consultant and put in a substantialamount of work to showcase my skills,
(07:18):
and also try to provide authenticvalue to the CEO and the executive
team during the interview process.
It was a lot of work and I wouldcaveat the entire approach by
establishing upfront with the CEO,I really look for a partner that's
growth minded, that's super open.
(07:39):
I look at this as an opportunity forme to learn about how I'm gonna work
with you, how I'm gonna understandyour business and your challenges,
and how I can bring my background andskills to bear on those challenges.
Throughout this process, as I learn,as I listen, I'm gonna play back
to you routinely what I'm hearing.
How it is that my skills and backgroundcan be brought to bear to help solve those
(08:01):
problems or exploit those opportunities.
And it was a very, in some waysseen as a very risky approach.
But it worked for me because itfundamentally de-risks the role
and the hire for both parties.
And it often had the advantage,when it succeeded, when it
worked, you had incredible fit.
(08:23):
You already had a rapport withthe CEO and the founding team.
They already knew how you thought,even how you were thinking about
their business with some depth, right?
And then when you come in,into the building, so to
speak, got a running start.
You've got equity and they've seenyou already do the work alongside
(08:45):
them through the interview process.
I think that's morecommon today than it was.
But that approach and that frameworkreally helped assess mutual fit.
Even though it introduced the risk tome getting hired, it greatly improved
the likelihood of it being a good fitfor both parties, and, therefore, having
legs and longevity as I entered the role.
(09:07):
I like that.
So it's like you're coming inand saying, okay, I'm not just
gonna submit to questions.
I'm gonna have this kind ofpeer-to-peer dialogue here.
We're both in it and let's figureout if this is a mutually good fit.
And I think you need a lot ofconfidence to do that because some
people, there's a difference betweena marketing leader who does that, and
somebody who's just like, oh, tell mewhat you need and tell me how you're
(09:28):
going to, you know, define the role.
And it's so true because somany CEOs actually don't know...
They just don't know right?
And so yeah, they can be asked,what, how exactly are you going
to judge this role's success, butit's much better for that marketing
expert to bring that to the table.
I agree.
Yeah.
And a lot of what I framed up in my ownmind as I entered these conversations,
(09:51):
and it involved researching the CEOahead of time, of course, and who
they are and what their background is.
But I always have an ICPCEO in mind for myself.
It's gonna be different for everyprofessional, but I would think about
that as you go into an interview cycle.
Even before you meet companies or meetthe CEO and do your - be a marketer,
(10:11):
be a strategic marketer, and thinkabout what is the ideal CEO for me
-Yeah.
as a marketing leader?
And in my case, it was a highlytechnical founder where I felt
like strength of product andengineering skill would essentially
provide that strength of product.
(10:32):
And that's the thing I wanted most.
So I felt like even though there can be alot of challenges with a highly technical
founder who may or may not be growthminded enough to defer the expertise that
you've got, that's always a trap we'lltalk about later, but I found that over
the years that really I wanted to bewith that technical founder that really
(10:54):
needed fundamental help in go-to-market.
That was my ICP.
And there were other aspects to it, andit's gonna be different for everybody.
And because that was my ICP, a lotof the framework I used was effective
for me and for that individualCEO, for the reasons you stated.
I would probe, I would ask questions.
I would say, well, let's talk about yourbusiness before I answer that question.
(11:18):
And when I went through those questionsand that framework, it gave me a chance
to play back how I was gonna add value,to play back ideas or strategies or
tactics that I would probably bringto bear given that founder, technical
founder CEO's unique situation.
And the right CEO for me, Icould see them spark to that.
(11:39):
I could see them be growth minded andbe like, this is the partner I need.
I don't want someone who's just lookingto say, hey, how can I help you?
That's a different type of CEO.
That's a CEO that's probably done ita few times, that has probably got
very clear ideas of what they want.
So, diagnosing that and addressingthat, I know you know the CEO who
(12:00):
knows what they want and saying,yeah, here's how I can help, is very
different as an ICP for you as aprofessional than what I described for me.
So that whole, to wrap this up, Iwould say have a clear idea of your
ideal CEO and how you are gonna addvalue, and then know how you need to
adapt your interview style to that CEO.
(12:22):
Mm mm.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
It's funny, it's sorts like theideal customer profile, the ideal CEO
profile, the ideal candidate profile,and it all kind of comes together.
So can you walk through the process, likedouble click on this, what is your process
of mutual discovery, mutual de-risking?
What does that look like?
Because it's like you're bringingin, you're doing your own de-risking,
(12:42):
but you're also helping that CEOfounder person to de-risk as well.
Can you just walk through that?
Correct.
Yeah, we can walk through it.
I have a go-to-market frameworkthat everyone in marketing's gonna
be familiar with at a high level.
We've all got our own version of whatI described, but I always try to,
in the early stages of the interviewprocess, start to probe the CEO and be
(13:05):
like, for example, starting with theICP definition, who are you selling to?
Please tell me all you can about thespecifics of who you're selling to,
and what I'm trying to understandis how well defined is the ICP?
And does this CEO founder truly understandhow important it is to have a specific,
(13:25):
quantifiable description of the ICP,and how focused and quantifiable is it?
The more clear that is as amarketer, of course, frankly, the
easier it is for you to add value.
'Cause if you're coming into acompany that's like I know my sales
addressable market in the next twelve totwenty-four months, it's $350 million.
(13:46):
It's in these geographies.
It's this type of persona.
It's this pain point that I'm solving for.
These technologies are present as a clueor signal from an intent perspective.
All those details are so valuablefor you because you can now be laser
focused on doing what you do as amarketer, which is drawing a circle
around that in market from how youdo your targeting, your demand gen,
(14:09):
your brand building, your messaging,your event selection, all of that.
So I always start there, and whatI've almost always found in an
early-stage company is as, theywere very confident about, I know
my ICP, I've got product market fit.
But what ended up happening was it wasvery loosely defined and it was, there
(14:32):
was a lot of risk inherent in that.
So that began the first step ofde-risking it for both of us, where I
would start to explain, you're so broad.
It's great that your product has ahorizontal footprint, that your total
addressable market is massive over time.
I love that, CEO founder.
But we need to get more specificabout your first fifty million in
(14:53):
revenue, your first a hundred millionin revenue, and my job with you is to
make sure that we're really specificand really targeted about that.
All that other real estate you'reattacking is opportunistic, but let's
go arm your sales team and arm ourmarketing strategy with a focused first
fifty million sales addressable market.
(15:13):
So that conversation is superimportant right up front.
And I would say 90% of the interviews,they think they've got it, they're
super confident, they're proud of thehorizontal market they can attack, so big,
but they've not really thought throughthe perils of that from a go-to-market
perspective and the lack of focus.
So that's the first thing.
(15:34):
And then as a result of that conversation,move to the go-to-market motion, and
this is probably these first two steps.
I'll pause and maybe you'llask some probing questions.
But these are the first two partsof the conversation that for me,
ultimately de-risk or understand thechallenges we're gonna face together
and can we overcome 'em together.
So the second step in this is whatI call the go-to-market motion.
(15:56):
There are six or sevendifferent go-to-market motions.
You have product-led growth on oneend of the spectrum, and you've got
pure outbound, hire fifteen enterprisesellers and have 'em go into the c-suite
and take down seven figure deals,on the other end of the spectrum.
And between those two, ABM, community,partnership or marketplace type plays.
(16:20):
So there's a variety ofdifferent go-to-market motions.
And you need to understandwhere they're at today.
Which motion are they using today?
And does that motion that they're takingfit or not with the ICP that you just
diagnosed together or figured out?
And this is the second area where alot of risk enters because if you've
(16:42):
got, for example, a technical founderthat is fundamentally needing a
super low cost of sale, competition'sgoing in product led, and yet they've
instinctively just hired a CRO that putfifteen or twenty enterprise sellers and
filled capacity and hired twenty BDRs.
You've got a ton of risk as amarketing leader because the ICP
(17:06):
and the go-to-market approach thatis needed is not what is present.
And so you need to have that discussion.
Ideally, there's a fit, there's already afit there, and you are the right person to
exploit the existing go-to-market motion.
So I'll pause there 'cause there's a lotto that, but does that make sense, Erica?
Yes, it does.
I love this.
Do you, how do you balance efficiencyand thoroughness, and also like
(17:29):
educating but not being too didactic?
Those are
-just a couple things that come to mind.
Any thoughts there?
Yeah, I've talked a lot in this podcast,but in a conversation with, in an
interview for an hour with the CEO,you just ask a couple key questions
in this area, and you're pretty quickat diagnosing what's really going on.
Uhhuh.
And just having a quick response to it.
(17:50):
And then what I will do if I'mreally excited about the CEO or the
company, or frankly, even if I'mnot, I always take the long view that
this is a relationship I wanna haveforever, even if I don't get hired.
So I still do the work, even if Iknow I'm probably not that interested
in the company or I have concerns.
But what I will do is be fairlysuccinct in the conversation, trying
to go through these various steps.
(18:11):
And then I will tell the CEO or theexecutive team member I'm interviewing,
I'm gonna play back in a follow-upnote some additional thoughts.
Then that just makes them feel reallygood, and they're starting to see how
you think, and this is how through theentire interview cycle as you go through
it, by the time you spent six, seven,eight, nine, ten hours with the company,
(18:34):
and you've routinely kept notes andplayed back what you've learned along the
way, you're de-risking it for yourself.
You're de-risking it for them.
And they're probably pretty excitedabout you as a candidate because you've
thoughtfully taken this journey with themand shown that you're listening, you're
playing back what you heard, you'reshowcasing how you can help, and at the
(18:54):
same time, everyone's being derisked.
It's a lot of work.
And I like this idea ofplaying it back over time.
'Cause, as you say, these processeshave gotten to be where there's often
a kind of a capstone presentation orchalk talk kind of thing at the end.
But you're kind of coalescing as you go.
And so that's a differentapproach than what I see a
lot of marketing leaders take.
(19:15):
So that, that's interesting.
That is, yeah, that's right.
And the third piece, as you start to talkabout or probe on, and you'll hear, is
brand building versus harvesting demand.
This is another really bigtrap I think in a risky area as
most marketers and CMOs know.
And it manifests in two ways.
So I always probe in this area as well.
(19:35):
Oftentimes, for a five, ten, twentymillion dollar company, you've got a CEO
founder who's like, I just need demand.
I hired a director of demand gen and I'mnot getting the quality leads I want.
I'm not getting the volume I want.
Often what happened with ahighly technical founder is they
skipped over the ICP definition.
They skipped over the go-to-market profilethey need and they just instinctively
(20:00):
went, I'm ready to build demand gen.
And So what you've got is thispremature demand gen effort that's
probably very inefficient, generatinga lot of low quality leads.
So that's another big area I listen for.
And the risk is theyexpect a silver bullet.
They expect by hiring the senior leaderthat they're going to make this demand
(20:21):
gen director, who's probably quitecompetent, suddenly 5x their efficiency or
output, when in fact, you've gotta bringthat founder CEO back to the beginning
of the conversation we already had.
The reason your demand gen isn't well is'cause you haven't tightly defined your
ICP perhaps, or your go-to-market motionis not lined up with the realities of cost
(20:42):
of sale and the realities of competition.
So that's another area.
The opposite, or the other end of thespectrum is you've got a founder CEO who's
like I just wanna build the brand andthey don't want you at all for demand gen.
I hear that a lot too.
Demand gen's fine.
I need someone to actually build my brandand help me get into the enterprise.
How are you going, you goback to the previous step.
(21:03):
Okay, great.
Well, your PLG today, you've got an opensource platform driving developers in,
and maybe they're getting to a freemiummodel like now you know you're gonna
have to fundamentally help them thinkabout adding on a new go-to-market
motion, the enterprise sales motion,and it's way more, again, it's risk.
It's way more than you asan individual can solve for.
(21:26):
It's gonna take a collective effortfrom the executive team to get that
new go-to-market motion in place.
And so you set expectations alongthe way on those two issues.
Yeah.
I like it.
And a lot of CEOs struggle tounderstand the difference between
creative brand and strategic brand.
And so I often tell people like,just don't use the word brand.
(21:47):
Just talk about messaging andpositioning and everything.
But you're right, especially if it'sa founder-led business sometimes the
route forward is brand building andshould be brand building and making
a big splash, and that's a different
both are great.
Yeah.
You expect to hear both those thingsto be present, especially if it's a
CMO role, you're gonna manage both.
So I'm always trying to diagnosewhere are they really at on both
(22:09):
those dimensions, and what's theroot cause of them either being ready
to scale what they're doing or not?
And again, generally in a growthstage company, especially with the
technical founder, all of thesethings are a little bit of a mess.
So you've got to, I think in theinterview process, you've gotta get to
the heart of the core issue and createthat relationship where you're like,
I know you want a silver bullet here.
(22:30):
I'll certainly come in and help youa ton on this issue, but to really
open it up we've gotta go backand solve for these core issues.
I'm gonna help you do that.
Hmm.
Are you aligned with that?
Are you open enough to understandthat I'm not just gonna 8x your
demand gen overnight, or build a brandthat takes two years to build in a
highly competitive market overnight?
Right.
That's great.
(22:50):
Anything else with theframework for evaluating a role?
The last two are often pretty big.
The fifth of the six kind ofthings I often listen for and probe
on is one I call customer love.
I think especially in the compressionwe went through over the last few
years, NRR and customer marketingare your best friend as a CMO.
(23:13):
But here's where risk enters.
You'll often hear a founderCEO say, no, no, I've got a
great customer success person.
I don't need you worriedabout the customers.
They're handled.
a red flag for me.
There's risk as a CMO when you hearthat because your best source of
marketing is your own customers.
So if you're sitting two miles awayin the mind of the CEO from the
(23:37):
customer team and can't create theright relationships directly, harvest
case studies, create virality,that's gonna be a problem for you.
So I probe on that as well.
Are they focused on NRR?
Do they, will they embrace the CMO havinga tight relationship, a customer marketing
initiative with the customer success team?
(23:59):
Because, again, the powerof that as a CMO is huge.
And if it's difficult for you to getthere, then you're gonna be challenged and
there's gonna be risk for you as a CMO.
It's also probably not greatfor the company, as you know.
Then the last area is probably justthe foundational pieces, which is what
I call the Demand Center, Rev Ops.
Everything I just described takestime and takes data and analytics,
(24:22):
and data is your best friend as a CMO.
Or your worst enemy,depending on how it's used.
If you've got good data, objective data,and you've got an executive team that
buys into the accuracy of that data,then you're in a really, really good spot
'cause you can constantly leverage thatin an open way with the executive team to
(24:43):
make observations and make improvements.
Good example is being able toempirically show, I know you wanna
hire another ten AEs, but your AEstoday are already horribly inefficient.
I'm twice as efficient with the smallinbound budget I've got, CRO, CEO.
Let's actually double the inbound budget.
(25:04):
I'll feed more qualityleads to the existing reps.
They'll all be at capacity.
Now, I'm gonna help you create a virtuouscycle of hiring the next enterprise rep.
'Cause they're gonna see lead flow.
The other reps are gonnabe strong, hitting quota.
Now you've created this virtuouscycle of really good reps.
The CRO loves that.
As opposed to the opposite, what I see,which is, no, let's hire ten more reps.
(25:25):
It's inefficient and youcreate not a virtuous cycle,
you create a downward cycle.
So Rev Ops.
Rev ops, rev ops, rev ops.
And it's often a mess, and it takesat least three quarters to fix.
So you gotta have thatconversation as well.
Yeah.
Great.
So thanks for walkingthrough that framework.
Obviously when it works, it's great.
Can you talk about a timewhen it hasn't worked?
When it hasn't been successfulin revealing a red flag?
(25:48):
Or things to think about despitethe framework working well?
Yeah.
I'll say it this way, like a lot offounder CEOs, technical founder CEOs,
they're so positive, they're so enthralledwith their own business that they don't
really give you the accurate informationthat you need to assess this well.
They're selling to you.
(26:09):
They end up liking you.
They hear what they like, and theysell to you, sell to you, sell to you.
And so when you get inside the four wallsof the company, you realize that what
you thought was present was not presentat all, or things that you thought
were okay, were actually really bad.
Or the opposite.
Things that you thought were notgreat were actually really good.
So the entire conversation thatyou've had during the interview
(26:29):
process is a little bit off kilterjust 'cause you were being sold to.
That's a really hard one to dealwith, but I just constantly encourage
the CEO and the founder to reallycreate honest dialogue because I need
that dialogue to know how to help.
And for me to help de-risk for you.
Can I help you?
The other one is thesilver bullet complex.
(26:50):
It's easy to pick this up, but thesilver bullet complex is no matter
what's said in the conversation ,youwalk in the door and they're like, I
want a 4x increase in two quarters.
Very, very difficult to achieve that.
You just gotta really listen forthat, the non-reality expectation.
I think that is leading to the shortenedcycles we're seeing more than anything.
(27:11):
The eighteen-month cycle that we've allbeen feeling because it takes at least
three quarters, or maybe four quarters,for impact in marketing to really be felt.
So trying to uncover that, is therea silver bullet expectation here?
And are you preparedfor that is the big one.
The third one I would say is the,this is a common issue for technical
(27:34):
founders, first time technicalfounders, new day, new strategy.
It's a reset button on marketing, andI will often try to break through with
a technical founder by explaining whenyou reset your marketing strategy,
it's the same thing as if youfully reset your product strategy.
You would never just go into yourproduct team from an R&D perspective
(27:54):
and shred the two or three quarterproduct roadmap because you're putting
your entire dev team back to zero.
Marketing actually works more likeproduct than it does like sales.
The returns on it are two,three, four quarters out.
And so that is a huge area where if youdon't pull that out of the conversation
(28:16):
effectively, that can come back to bereally painful because every quarter
we're gonna switch strategy and marketing,and then you can never get anywhere.
And eventually you're out thedoor in four to six quarters.
And the wrong hire, wrongtime, over or under hiring.
This became an issue for me more recently.
I really love growth stageof five to fifty million.
(28:37):
I realized I had to figure outsomething else in my career because
it worked against me to be a fifth,sixth, seventh time CMO at that stage.
I just appeared overqualified andI probably, frankly, often was.
And you and I have talked about thisat a professional level, like how
to deal with that, and it just tookfinding the right company for me.
(28:58):
But you really gotta watch out for that.
Are you the under hire and you'regonna get leveled before you
want to or unnecessarily leveled?
Or are you being overhiredand they're just not ready for
everything you can do as a CMO?
It's not the right stage of company.
Right, right.
Yeah.
I have a client who talks in a greatway about this, and it's like, do
you want the person who's gonnastretch into the role, or step into
(29:19):
the role, or stoop into the role?
And it's just a great frameworkfor thinking about that.
And just reacting what you saidabout it could take three quarters
for things to even start to showresults, and probably more if you're
reversing your go-to market motion.
That is, I think, such a key point.
So I just wanna underscore that, becauseoften in processes CEOs and CMOs will
(29:41):
think about, well, okay, what needsto be done and who's the customer?
Et cetera.
But what they need to spend as much timeon is what's the budget and in how long?
Like how long will it taketo get this to happen?
And that's where CMOs, I think, caneducate CEOs and say, okay, if this
is what you want, then these areall the steps to get there, and this
is when it's going to bear fruit.
Correct.
I think that's where, that's a hugecontributor to this eighteen-month
(30:04):
tenure problem that you brought up.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And you're gonna have to have thethings, tactical things that you could
point to even in the interview process.
I know I can work in this rightaway and there'll be value.
Better training your sales team,clarifying, but the longer term stuff has
to be understood in the way you described.
I believe that is the single biggest thingthat's in the way of our profession, so
(30:26):
to speak, and the short tenures we'restarting to see, which are not helpful.
To anybody.
No, exactly.
Let's switch gears a little bit.
I'd love to hear your take on AI.
No conversation in marketingis complete without AI.
Specifically, when you were doingyour search recently, and you
talked to different companies, I'mcurious, were CEOs interested in
(30:47):
your knowledge of AI, and if so,how did they try to get at that?
And is it more about efficiencyand productivity or is it more
about the technical aspects of it?
Yeah, it was interesting that, Iwas interviewing in Q1 of 2024.
It was interesting to me thatit wasn't coming up as directly
(31:07):
and early and aggressively asI would've expected as a CMO.
It came up in almost every conversation,but it was not necessarily a prevailing
thought interestingly enough.
I think that what I'm seeing is theCEOs and some of these founders are
feeling a little, maybe, overwhelmedwith the hype cycle on AI right now.
(31:30):
What most of them ultimatelywanted to understand is a practical
way to apply AI for value.
That's where they probed.
And I would say even if they didn'tprobe, I would make sure that you
as a professional in the interviewcycle today have that conversation.
And by the way, here, as you go throughand have the conversation about your
skills, be very clear about where AI isgoing to layer in and how it is you're
(31:55):
gonna think about AI adding value.
Because there is some concern from CEOsand founders that it's being overhyped.
It's a silver bullet for everything, andthere's a lot of cost to it done poorly.
There's a lot of compute cost.
There's a lot of distraction if it'sjust the shiny object that you put in
every tool in your stack, for example.
(32:16):
Let's not go back as CMOs and rev opspeople to five or eight years ago when
there were fifteen tools in our stack andwe had to pull all that out in the last
three years and get back to being simple.
So the net net on this is they knowit's valuable, they're concerned
about it being overhyped and itbeing a silver bullet, and they wanna
hear about your core skills as amarketer, as a leader, as an executive.
(32:41):
Because AI is not fundamentallygonna take over all of that.
Then you, being interviewed in theprocess, you can start to artfully
weave in where you know AI productivityaims are absolutely present.
The impact on SEO is massive.
You gotta talk about that.
And I think the productivitygains of content creation,
messaging, advertising copy.
(33:03):
There's so much value therethat's already being unleashed.
That account research,if you're doing ABM.
Unbelievable unlocks there thatdon't require a huge investment,
technology that exists today.
That's what I would focuson when it comes to AI.
Awesome.
Thank you so much for sharing.
In the interest of time, I'm going tobring us to our final question, which is
(33:24):
something I ask everybody, and that is,what is your favorite interview question
when you're interviewing a marketingleader for your team, for instance?
My question that I always get tovery early is what do you think
are the three most importanttraits of being a great marketer?
Very simple.
Seems really easy.
(33:45):
It's like a softball, but what I'mlistening for is not a softball.
What I'm personally listening foris that I feel like great marketers
are fundamentally, they view therole as a listening function.
What I mean by that is I listen to themarket capital and I listen to customers.
I listen to prospects.
I listen to my closed lost deals.
I listen to competition.
(34:05):
I listen to my partners.
I listen to my own sales team.
That is often, I think, just not donewell by the marketing discipline.
Marketers somehow often feel compelledto come in and be ivory tower.
I have the answer.
Let me grant my wisdomof marketing upon you.
That is, I think, really risky.
(34:26):
And so I listen for that.
Growth-minded.
Again, they're related, butbeing growth-minded, meaning
I don't know everything.
I've got a pattern.
My pattern may or may notapply to this situation.
Some elements will, some will not, butI understand how to analyze a situation,
get to the root cause, and then myskills and background to bear, but also
(34:48):
know where I don't have those skillsand go get them, either in my team
as I hire or consultants or whatever.
Then, finally, data-driven objectivity.
Those are the three things I wanna hearabout is committing to the rev ops layer
and having data, objective data to tryto guide the entire executive team.
That's great.
Thank you.
I like those.
And if you only hear two out of thethree do you probe for the third?
(35:11):
I almost never hear all three.
I mean, honestly, I almost never hearall those three from me personally.
But I like to hear at least one of them.
Yeah.
The reason I ask that question is whatI'm really listening for, again, getting
to the root of the question and whyI ask it is I think great marketers
listen well and they're growth-minded.
Not so great marketers, at least inmy opinion, come in thinking they know
(35:32):
everything, like they can just spreadtheir wisdom across the organization.
And that I think is a problemfor the profession at times.
Yeah.
That's what I'm trying to diagnose.
Yeah.
That's great.
Well, thank you so muchfor joining us on The Get.
This has been awesome to have you, James.
I love being here, Erica.
Always good to talk to you.
Thanks for having me.
We'll talk again soon.
All right.
Take care.
(35:53):
That was James Lamberti.
Now, think of how you can get togreater CEO/CMO alignment through
spirit of collaborative risk mitigation.
Next time on The Get, you'll hearmore from me and from another guest.
Don't miss it.
Thanks for listening to The GetI'm your host, Erica Seidel.
The Get is here to drive smartdecisions around recruiting and
(36:14):
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
We explore the trends, tribulations,and triumphs of today's top
marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
If you liked thisepisode, please share it.
For more about The Get,visit TheGetPodcast.com.
To learn more about my executive searchpractice, which focuses on recruiting the
make-money marketing leaders rather thanthe make-it-pretty ones, follow me on
(36:35):
LinkedIn or visit TheConnectiveGood.com.
The Get is produced by Evo Terraof Simpler Media Productions.
I have been recruiting marketingleaders for thirteen years now.
(00:03):
There's one thing I've heard over andover again from CEOs and investors.
That's that of all the hiring theydo across the C-suite, hiring the
CMO is often the most challenging.
They perceive so much risk in hiring, andthey're often just scared of the process.
Today, we look at why thatis and how it can be easier.
Hello, and welcome to The Get.
(00:23):
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
I spend my days recruiting CMOsand VPs of Marketing in B2B SaaS.
My tagline is I place themake-money marketing leaders
and not the make-it-pretty ones.
With my role, I have a front-row seat tothe trends, tribulations, and triumphs of
today's top marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
And now with The Get you do, too.
(00:44):
The Get is designed to drive smartdecisions around recruiting and
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
This season, we focus on the raceto reduce risk when it comes to a
match between a company and a CMO.
How can you find out what you need tofind out before saying yes so that you
make a match that sticks and flourishes?
Today, I'll talk about what it'slike for people who are hiring a
(01:05):
CMO, CEOs, or investors primarily.
How is this process riskyfrom their perspective?
Then, I will bring on myguest, James Lamberti.
He will share his take on hiring CMOsand getting hired as a CMO, having
seen this across multiple companies.
Why is it hard to recruit a CMO?
First, there's just a lot at stake.
Marketing is often central to the thesisthat a company has for its growth journey.
(01:29):
The faster the company can get theright leader in, the faster they
can achieve their growth goals.
So the pressure is on.
But CEOs and investors tend to bemore knowledgeable about the role
of, say, a CFO or a product leader.
Their knowledge of marketingcan be comparatively lower.
It doesn't help that the job ofthe marketing leader is so varied.
CEOs and investors hiring for theCMO can struggle to figure out what
(01:53):
flavor of marketing leader they need.
And the pace of change is greater inmarketing than in some other functions.
The perception is that the roleis changing with new technologies
and ways to drive demand andcommunicate with a market.
I say perception since, of course,the fundamentals of marketing don't
change, but people who are lessfamiliar with marketing can find
(02:14):
it taxing to figure out what isfundamental and what is a shiny object.
They want the person who can applyAI and build an efficient MarTech
stack, but not the person who is goingto be so focused on new toys that
they get distracted or use up alltheir budget on experimental things.
It's also hard because marketinghas an impact across the company, so
(02:34):
that means everyone has an opinion.
And, of course, many companieshave had marketing hires not work
out, so they are wary, and they'relooking to mitigate their risk.
And, they do perceiverisk with the CMO hire.
They worry about a few things- that the person is going to
be all sizzle and no steak.
They worry that the CMO candidatewill tell great stories but not
(02:55):
be able to get their hands dirty.
They worry that the marketing leaderwill come in and focus so much
on brand and pictures and logosand not be able to drive demand.
This, by the way, comes because oftenthey can confuse strategic brands
- messaging and positioning, thingslike that - versus creative brand.
They wonder, also, aboutreporting structure.
(03:16):
What's in scope for themarketing leadership role?
Should BDRs report tomarketing or to sales?
Should product marketing reportto marketing or to product?
Et cetera.
Here are some tips for thoseCEOs and investors who are
nervous about hiring a CMO.
First, admit it if you need to learn.
One of my clients, who's an investor,said to me at one point, "Oh, Erica, I
(03:37):
don't know anything about marketing."
He was just very matter-of-fact,and he approached it with curiosity.
Our whole search, he just approached thewhole thing with a curiosity and learning
as opposed to trying to pass himselfoff as knowing a ton about marketing.
So there's really no shame in it.
I've even had plenty of CMO clientswho are hiring VPs of some functional
(03:57):
area look to the search process tounderstand the role that they're hiring
for and the different archetypes for it.
The next idea is take the time tolearn first and recruit second.
Look to the candidates and yourrecruiting partner to teach
you and to co-create the role.
They will help you figure out what typeof marketing leader would make sense.
Don't expect to get it rightin just a few candidates.
(04:19):
Often in CMO searches, there's a bitmore calibration than other roles, and
sometimes companies have to see, say,six candidates rather than three since
marketing is just so multifaceted.
And, beware hiring the person froma super sexy company, but one that's
at the wrong stage or was successfulwith a different go-to-market motion.
(04:40):
Like we've talked about before inother podcasts here, some companies
are successful because of theirmarketing leaders and others are
successful despite marketing.
With that, let's bring onmy guest, James Lamberti.
James is head of go-to-market forGeorgian, the firm that invests in
high-growth B2B software companies.
Previously, James served as CMO atseveral companies like SalesIntel,
(05:03):
Conviva, Applitools, and Quri.
James, thank you so much forjoining us and welcome to the show.
Great to be here, Erica.
Happy to talk today about de-riskinghiring for both CMOs and CEOs.
Awesome.
And I love your take on this, youknow, what's good for the goose
is good for the gander is kind ofwhat we've talked about before.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So before we get started, can you justexplain a little bit about your role
(05:27):
now and anything else that I missedin your background that you wanted to
-Yeah.
I think
-bring to light?
- you covered my background pretty well.
I started here at Georgian in mid-Marchand my role is to market the firm to
the larger investment community so thatpeople are aware and understand what
we do and who we are in that context.
Prior to joining an investment firm,I was an operator, as you mentioned,
(05:48):
in multiple growth stage companies,anywhere from five to a hundred million.
Often joining as the first,maybe second, go-to market
executive with a CEO and founder.
So I have a pretty, pretty goodperspective on this and I've
done it now seven times in a row.
Yes.
Awesome.
And yeah, I should say I've tried torecruit you a few different times and
(06:11):
I, and you also have a job that so manypeople would want, so it's very cool.
So let's get right into it.
I would love to talk about managingrisk, like we said, like on both
sides there's the hiring andthere's the getting hired side.
Let's just start with gettinghired because as you said, you've
led marketing or been head ofgo-to-market, many, many times now.
And a lot of people, they do it a fewtimes and they're like, no, never again.
(06:33):
And for you, you do like it.
So I imagine you have some kindof framework for diagnosing a role
and figuring out the mutual fit.
And would love for you to walk methrough the process that you follow.
Absolutely.
I do have a framework that Istarted pretty early on, maybe
going back almost fifteen years.
But going back to my first, reallymy first CMO title where I started
(06:56):
doing what I'm about to describe.
And really it's, I think it's morecommon now, but at the time it was
pretty novel and I really took on theinterview process as a consultant gig.
I really embraced the idea thatI'm going to play the role of a
consultant and put in a substantialamount of work to showcase my skills,
(07:18):
and also try to provide authenticvalue to the CEO and the executive
team during the interview process.
It was a lot of work and I wouldcaveat the entire approach by
establishing upfront with the CEO,I really look for a partner that's
growth minded, that's super open.
(07:39):
I look at this as an opportunity forme to learn about how I'm gonna work
with you, how I'm gonna understandyour business and your challenges,
and how I can bring my background andskills to bear on those challenges.
Throughout this process, as I learn,as I listen, I'm gonna play back
to you routinely what I'm hearing.
How it is that my skills and backgroundcan be brought to bear to help solve those
(08:01):
problems or exploit those opportunities.
And it was a very, in some waysseen as a very risky approach.
But it worked for me because itfundamentally de-risks the role
and the hire for both parties.
And it often had the advantage,when it succeeded, when it
worked, you had incredible fit.
(08:23):
You already had a rapport withthe CEO and the founding team.
They already knew how you thought,even how you were thinking about
their business with some depth, right?
And then when you come in,into the building, so to
speak, got a running start.
You've got equity and they've seenyou already do the work alongside
(08:45):
them through the interview process.
I think that's morecommon today than it was.
But that approach and that frameworkreally helped assess mutual fit.
Even though it introduced the risk tome getting hired, it greatly improved
the likelihood of it being a good fitfor both parties, and, therefore, having
legs and longevity as I entered the role.
(09:07):
I like that.
So it's like you're coming inand saying, okay, I'm not just
gonna submit to questions.
I'm gonna have this kind ofpeer-to-peer dialogue here.
We're both in it and let's figureout if this is a mutually good fit.
And I think you need a lot ofconfidence to do that because some
people, there's a difference betweena marketing leader who does that, and
somebody who's just like, oh, tell mewhat you need and tell me how you're
(09:28):
going to, you know, define the role.
And it's so true because somany CEOs actually don't know...
They just don't know right?
And so yeah, they can be asked,what, how exactly are you going
to judge this role's success, butit's much better for that marketing
expert to bring that to the table.
I agree.
Yeah.
And a lot of what I framed up in my ownmind as I entered these conversations,
(09:51):
and it involved researching the CEOahead of time, of course, and who
they are and what their background is.
But I always have an ICPCEO in mind for myself.
It's gonna be different for everyprofessional, but I would think about
that as you go into an interview cycle.
Even before you meet companies or meetthe CEO and do your - be a marketer,
(10:11):
be a strategic marketer, and thinkabout what is the ideal CEO for me
-Yeah.
as a marketing leader?
And in my case, it was a highlytechnical founder where I felt
like strength of product andengineering skill would essentially
provide that strength of product.
(10:32):
And that's the thing I wanted most.
So I felt like even though there can be alot of challenges with a highly technical
founder who may or may not be growthminded enough to defer the expertise that
you've got, that's always a trap we'lltalk about later, but I found that over
the years that really I wanted to bewith that technical founder that really
(10:54):
needed fundamental help in go-to-market.
That was my ICP.
And there were other aspects to it, andit's gonna be different for everybody.
And because that was my ICP, a lotof the framework I used was effective
for me and for that individualCEO, for the reasons you stated.
I would probe, I would ask questions.
I would say, well, let's talk about yourbusiness before I answer that question.
(11:18):
And when I went through those questionsand that framework, it gave me a chance
to play back how I was gonna add value,to play back ideas or strategies or
tactics that I would probably bringto bear given that founder, technical
founder CEO's unique situation.
And the right CEO for me, Icould see them spark to that.
(11:39):
I could see them be growth minded andbe like, this is the partner I need.
I don't want someone who's just lookingto say, hey, how can I help you?
That's a different type of CEO.
That's a CEO that's probably done ita few times, that has probably got
very clear ideas of what they want.
So, diagnosing that and addressingthat, I know you know the CEO who
(12:00):
knows what they want and saying,yeah, here's how I can help, is very
different as an ICP for you as aprofessional than what I described for me.
So that whole, to wrap this up, Iwould say have a clear idea of your
ideal CEO and how you are gonna addvalue, and then know how you need to
adapt your interview style to that CEO.
(12:22):
Mm mm.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
It's funny, it's sorts like theideal customer profile, the ideal CEO
profile, the ideal candidate profile,and it all kind of comes together.
So can you walk through the process, likedouble click on this, what is your process
of mutual discovery, mutual de-risking?
What does that look like?
Because it's like you're bringingin, you're doing your own de-risking,
(12:42):
but you're also helping that CEOfounder person to de-risk as well.
Can you just walk through that?
Correct.
Yeah, we can walk through it.
I have a go-to-market frameworkthat everyone in marketing's gonna
be familiar with at a high level.
We've all got our own version of whatI described, but I always try to,
in the early stages of the interviewprocess, start to probe the CEO and be
(13:05):
like, for example, starting with theICP definition, who are you selling to?
Please tell me all you can about thespecifics of who you're selling to,
and what I'm trying to understandis how well defined is the ICP?
And does this CEO founder truly understandhow important it is to have a specific,
(13:25):
quantifiable description of the ICP,and how focused and quantifiable is it?
The more clear that is as amarketer, of course, frankly, the
easier it is for you to add value.
'Cause if you're coming into acompany that's like I know my sales
addressable market in the next twelve totwenty-four months, it's $350 million.
(13:46):
It's in these geographies.
It's this type of persona.
It's this pain point that I'm solving for.
These technologies are present as a clueor signal from an intent perspective.
All those details are so valuablefor you because you can now be laser
focused on doing what you do as amarketer, which is drawing a circle
around that in market from how youdo your targeting, your demand gen,
(14:09):
your brand building, your messaging,your event selection, all of that.
So I always start there, and whatI've almost always found in an
early-stage company is as, theywere very confident about, I know
my ICP, I've got product market fit.
But what ended up happening was it wasvery loosely defined and it was, there
(14:32):
was a lot of risk inherent in that.
So that began the first step ofde-risking it for both of us, where I
would start to explain, you're so broad.
It's great that your product has ahorizontal footprint, that your total
addressable market is massive over time.
I love that, CEO founder.
But we need to get more specificabout your first fifty million in
(14:53):
revenue, your first a hundred millionin revenue, and my job with you is to
make sure that we're really specificand really targeted about that.
All that other real estate you'reattacking is opportunistic, but let's
go arm your sales team and arm ourmarketing strategy with a focused first
fifty million sales addressable market.
(15:13):
So that conversation is superimportant right up front.
And I would say 90% of the interviews,they think they've got it, they're
super confident, they're proud of thehorizontal market they can attack, so big,
but they've not really thought throughthe perils of that from a go-to-market
perspective and the lack of focus.
So that's the first thing.
(15:34):
And then as a result of that conversation,move to the go-to-market motion, and
this is probably these first two steps.
I'll pause and maybe you'llask some probing questions.
But these are the first two partsof the conversation that for me,
ultimately de-risk or understand thechallenges we're gonna face together
and can we overcome 'em together.
So the second step in this is whatI call the go-to-market motion.
(15:56):
There are six or sevendifferent go-to-market motions.
You have product-led growth on oneend of the spectrum, and you've got
pure outbound, hire fifteen enterprisesellers and have 'em go into the c-suite
and take down seven figure deals,on the other end of the spectrum.
And between those two, ABM, community,partnership or marketplace type plays.
(16:20):
So there's a variety ofdifferent go-to-market motions.
And you need to understandwhere they're at today.
Which motion are they using today?
And does that motion that they're takingfit or not with the ICP that you just
diagnosed together or figured out?
And this is the second area where alot of risk enters because if you've
(16:42):
got, for example, a technical founderthat is fundamentally needing a
super low cost of sale, competition'sgoing in product led, and yet they've
instinctively just hired a CRO that putfifteen or twenty enterprise sellers and
filled capacity and hired twenty BDRs.
You've got a ton of risk as amarketing leader because the ICP
(17:06):
and the go-to-market approach thatis needed is not what is present.
And so you need to have that discussion.
Ideally, there's a fit, there's already afit there, and you are the right person to
exploit the existing go-to-market motion.
So I'll pause there 'cause there's a lotto that, but does that make sense, Erica?
Yes, it does.
I love this.
Do you, how do you balance efficiencyand thoroughness, and also like
(17:29):
educating but not being too didactic?
Those are
-just a couple things that come to mind.
Any thoughts there?
Yeah, I've talked a lot in this podcast,but in a conversation with, in an
interview for an hour with the CEO,you just ask a couple key questions
in this area, and you're pretty quickat diagnosing what's really going on.
Uhhuh.
And just having a quick response to it.
(17:50):
And then what I will do if I'mreally excited about the CEO or the
company, or frankly, even if I'mnot, I always take the long view that
this is a relationship I wanna haveforever, even if I don't get hired.
So I still do the work, even if Iknow I'm probably not that interested
in the company or I have concerns.
But what I will do is be fairlysuccinct in the conversation, trying
to go through these various steps.
(18:11):
And then I will tell the CEO or theexecutive team member I'm interviewing,
I'm gonna play back in a follow-upnote some additional thoughts.
Then that just makes them feel reallygood, and they're starting to see how
you think, and this is how through theentire interview cycle as you go through
it, by the time you spent six, seven,eight, nine, ten hours with the company,
(18:34):
and you've routinely kept notes andplayed back what you've learned along the
way, you're de-risking it for yourself.
You're de-risking it for them.
And they're probably pretty excitedabout you as a candidate because you've
thoughtfully taken this journey with themand shown that you're listening, you're
playing back what you heard, you'reshowcasing how you can help, and at the
(18:54):
same time, everyone's being derisked.
It's a lot of work.
And I like this idea ofplaying it back over time.
'Cause, as you say, these processeshave gotten to be where there's often
a kind of a capstone presentation orchalk talk kind of thing at the end.
But you're kind of coalescing as you go.
And so that's a differentapproach than what I see a
lot of marketing leaders take.
(19:15):
So that, that's interesting.
That is, yeah, that's right.
And the third piece, as you start to talkabout or probe on, and you'll hear, is
brand building versus harvesting demand.
This is another really bigtrap I think in a risky area as
most marketers and CMOs know.
And it manifests in two ways.
So I always probe in this area as well.
(19:35):
Oftentimes, for a five, ten, twentymillion dollar company, you've got a CEO
founder who's like, I just need demand.
I hired a director of demand gen and I'mnot getting the quality leads I want.
I'm not getting the volume I want.
Often what happened with ahighly technical founder is they
skipped over the ICP definition.
They skipped over the go-to-market profilethey need and they just instinctively
(20:00):
went, I'm ready to build demand gen.
And So what you've got is thispremature demand gen effort that's
probably very inefficient, generatinga lot of low quality leads.
So that's another big area I listen for.
And the risk is theyexpect a silver bullet.
They expect by hiring the senior leaderthat they're going to make this demand
(20:21):
gen director, who's probably quitecompetent, suddenly 5x their efficiency or
output, when in fact, you've gotta bringthat founder CEO back to the beginning
of the conversation we already had.
The reason your demand gen isn't well is'cause you haven't tightly defined your
ICP perhaps, or your go-to-market motionis not lined up with the realities of cost
(20:42):
of sale and the realities of competition.
So that's another area.
The opposite, or the other end of thespectrum is you've got a founder CEO who's
like I just wanna build the brand andthey don't want you at all for demand gen.
I hear that a lot too.
Demand gen's fine.
I need someone to actually build my brandand help me get into the enterprise.
How are you going, you goback to the previous step.
(21:03):
Okay, great.
Well, your PLG today, you've got an opensource platform driving developers in,
and maybe they're getting to a freemiummodel like now you know you're gonna
have to fundamentally help them thinkabout adding on a new go-to-market
motion, the enterprise sales motion,and it's way more, again, it's risk.
It's way more than you asan individual can solve for.
(21:26):
It's gonna take a collective effortfrom the executive team to get that
new go-to-market motion in place.
And so you set expectations alongthe way on those two issues.
Yeah.
I like it.
And a lot of CEOs struggle tounderstand the difference between
creative brand and strategic brand.
And so I often tell people like,just don't use the word brand.
(21:47):
Just talk about messaging andpositioning and everything.
But you're right, especially if it'sa founder-led business sometimes the
route forward is brand building andshould be brand building and making
a big splash, and that's a different
both are great.
Yeah.
You expect to hear both those thingsto be present, especially if it's a
CMO role, you're gonna manage both.
So I'm always trying to diagnosewhere are they really at on both
(22:09):
those dimensions, and what's theroot cause of them either being ready
to scale what they're doing or not?
And again, generally in a growthstage company, especially with the
technical founder, all of thesethings are a little bit of a mess.
So you've got to, I think in theinterview process, you've gotta get to
the heart of the core issue and createthat relationship where you're like,
I know you want a silver bullet here.
(22:30):
I'll certainly come in and help youa ton on this issue, but to really
open it up we've gotta go backand solve for these core issues.
I'm gonna help you do that.
Hmm.
Are you aligned with that?
Are you open enough to understandthat I'm not just gonna 8x your
demand gen overnight, or build a brandthat takes two years to build in a
highly competitive market overnight?
Right.
That's great.
(22:50):
Anything else with theframework for evaluating a role?
The last two are often pretty big.
The fifth of the six kind ofthings I often listen for and probe
on is one I call customer love.
I think especially in the compressionwe went through over the last few
years, NRR and customer marketingare your best friend as a CMO.
(23:13):
But here's where risk enters.
You'll often hear a founderCEO say, no, no, I've got a
great customer success person.
I don't need you worriedabout the customers.
They're handled.
a red flag for me.
There's risk as a CMO when you hearthat because your best source of
marketing is your own customers.
So if you're sitting two miles awayin the mind of the CEO from the
(23:37):
customer team and can't create theright relationships directly, harvest
case studies, create virality,that's gonna be a problem for you.
So I probe on that as well.
Are they focused on NRR?
Do they, will they embrace the CMO havinga tight relationship, a customer marketing
initiative with the customer success team?
(23:59):
Because, again, the powerof that as a CMO is huge.
And if it's difficult for you to getthere, then you're gonna be challenged and
there's gonna be risk for you as a CMO.
It's also probably not greatfor the company, as you know.
Then the last area is probably justthe foundational pieces, which is what
I call the Demand Center, Rev Ops.
Everything I just described takestime and takes data and analytics,
(24:22):
and data is your best friend as a CMO.
Or your worst enemy,depending on how it's used.
If you've got good data, objective data,and you've got an executive team that
buys into the accuracy of that data,then you're in a really, really good spot
'cause you can constantly leverage thatin an open way with the executive team to
(24:43):
make observations and make improvements.
Good example is being able toempirically show, I know you wanna
hire another ten AEs, but your AEstoday are already horribly inefficient.
I'm twice as efficient with the smallinbound budget I've got, CRO, CEO.
Let's actually double the inbound budget.
(25:04):
I'll feed more qualityleads to the existing reps.
They'll all be at capacity.
Now, I'm gonna help you create a virtuouscycle of hiring the next enterprise rep.
'Cause they're gonna see lead flow.
The other reps are gonnabe strong, hitting quota.
Now you've created this virtuouscycle of really good reps.
The CRO loves that.
As opposed to the opposite, what I see,which is, no, let's hire ten more reps.
(25:25):
It's inefficient and youcreate not a virtuous cycle,
you create a downward cycle.
So Rev Ops.
Rev ops, rev ops, rev ops.
And it's often a mess, and it takesat least three quarters to fix.
So you gotta have thatconversation as well.
Yeah.
Great.
So thanks for walkingthrough that framework.
Obviously when it works, it's great.
Can you talk about a timewhen it hasn't worked?
When it hasn't been successfulin revealing a red flag?
(25:48):
Or things to think about despitethe framework working well?
Yeah.
I'll say it this way, like a lot offounder CEOs, technical founder CEOs,
they're so positive, they're so enthralledwith their own business that they don't
really give you the accurate informationthat you need to assess this well.
They're selling to you.
(26:09):
They end up liking you.
They hear what they like, and theysell to you, sell to you, sell to you.
And so when you get inside the four wallsof the company, you realize that what
you thought was present was not presentat all, or things that you thought
were okay, were actually really bad.
Or the opposite.
Things that you thought were notgreat were actually really good.
So the entire conversation thatyou've had during the interview
(26:29):
process is a little bit off kilterjust 'cause you were being sold to.
That's a really hard one to dealwith, but I just constantly encourage
the CEO and the founder to reallycreate honest dialogue because I need
that dialogue to know how to help.
And for me to help de-risk for you.
Can I help you?
The other one is thesilver bullet complex.
(26:50):
It's easy to pick this up, but thesilver bullet complex is no matter
what's said in the conversation ,youwalk in the door and they're like, I
want a 4x increase in two quarters.
Very, very difficult to achieve that.
You just gotta really listen forthat, the non-reality expectation.
I think that is leading to the shortenedcycles we're seeing more than anything.
(27:11):
The eighteen-month cycle that we've allbeen feeling because it takes at least
three quarters, or maybe four quarters,for impact in marketing to really be felt.
So trying to uncover that, is therea silver bullet expectation here?
And are you preparedfor that is the big one.
The third one I would say is the,this is a common issue for technical
(27:34):
founders, first time technicalfounders, new day, new strategy.
It's a reset button on marketing, andI will often try to break through with
a technical founder by explaining whenyou reset your marketing strategy,
it's the same thing as if youfully reset your product strategy.
You would never just go into yourproduct team from an R&D perspective
(27:54):
and shred the two or three quarterproduct roadmap because you're putting
your entire dev team back to zero.
Marketing actually works more likeproduct than it does like sales.
The returns on it are two,three, four quarters out.
And so that is a huge area where if youdon't pull that out of the conversation
(28:16):
effectively, that can come back to bereally painful because every quarter
we're gonna switch strategy and marketing,and then you can never get anywhere.
And eventually you're out thedoor in four to six quarters.
And the wrong hire, wrongtime, over or under hiring.
This became an issue for me more recently.
I really love growth stageof five to fifty million.
(28:37):
I realized I had to figure outsomething else in my career because
it worked against me to be a fifth,sixth, seventh time CMO at that stage.
I just appeared overqualified andI probably, frankly, often was.
And you and I have talked about thisat a professional level, like how
to deal with that, and it just tookfinding the right company for me.
(28:58):
But you really gotta watch out for that.
Are you the under hire and you'regonna get leveled before you
want to or unnecessarily leveled?
Or are you being overhiredand they're just not ready for
everything you can do as a CMO?
It's not the right stage of company.
Right, right.
Yeah.
I have a client who talks in a greatway about this, and it's like, do
you want the person who's gonnastretch into the role, or step into
(29:19):
the role, or stoop into the role?
And it's just a great frameworkfor thinking about that.
And just reacting what you saidabout it could take three quarters
for things to even start to showresults, and probably more if you're
reversing your go-to market motion.
That is, I think, such a key point.
So I just wanna underscore that, becauseoften in processes CEOs and CMOs will
(29:41):
think about, well, okay, what needsto be done and who's the customer?
Et cetera.
But what they need to spend as much timeon is what's the budget and in how long?
Like how long will it taketo get this to happen?
And that's where CMOs, I think, caneducate CEOs and say, okay, if this
is what you want, then these areall the steps to get there, and this
is when it's going to bear fruit.
Correct.
I think that's where, that's a hugecontributor to this eighteen-month
(30:04):
tenure problem that you brought up.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And you're gonna have to have thethings, tactical things that you could
point to even in the interview process.
I know I can work in this rightaway and there'll be value.
Better training your sales team,clarifying, but the longer term stuff has
to be understood in the way you described.
I believe that is the single biggest thingthat's in the way of our profession, so
(30:26):
to speak, and the short tenures we'restarting to see, which are not helpful.
To anybody.
No, exactly.
Let's switch gears a little bit.
I'd love to hear your take on AI.
No conversation in marketingis complete without AI.
Specifically, when you were doingyour search recently, and you
talked to different companies, I'mcurious, were CEOs interested in
(30:47):
your knowledge of AI, and if so,how did they try to get at that?
And is it more about efficiencyand productivity or is it more
about the technical aspects of it?
Yeah, it was interesting that, Iwas interviewing in Q1 of 2024.
It was interesting to me thatit wasn't coming up as directly
(31:07):
and early and aggressively asI would've expected as a CMO.
It came up in almost every conversation,but it was not necessarily a prevailing
thought interestingly enough.
I think that what I'm seeing is theCEOs and some of these founders are
feeling a little, maybe, overwhelmedwith the hype cycle on AI right now.
(31:30):
What most of them ultimatelywanted to understand is a practical
way to apply AI for value.
That's where they probed.
And I would say even if they didn'tprobe, I would make sure that you
as a professional in the interviewcycle today have that conversation.
And by the way, here, as you go throughand have the conversation about your
skills, be very clear about where AI isgoing to layer in and how it is you're
(31:55):
gonna think about AI adding value.
Because there is some concern from CEOsand founders that it's being overhyped.
It's a silver bullet for everything, andthere's a lot of cost to it done poorly.
There's a lot of compute cost.
There's a lot of distraction if it'sjust the shiny object that you put in
every tool in your stack, for example.
(32:16):
Let's not go back as CMOs and rev opspeople to five or eight years ago when
there were fifteen tools in our stack andwe had to pull all that out in the last
three years and get back to being simple.
So the net net on this is they knowit's valuable, they're concerned
about it being overhyped and itbeing a silver bullet, and they wanna
hear about your core skills as amarketer, as a leader, as an executive.
(32:41):
Because AI is not fundamentallygonna take over all of that.
Then you, being interviewed in theprocess, you can start to artfully
weave in where you know AI productivityaims are absolutely present.
The impact on SEO is massive.
You gotta talk about that.
And I think the productivitygains of content creation,
messaging, advertising copy.
(33:03):
There's so much value therethat's already being unleashed.
That account research,if you're doing ABM.
Unbelievable unlocks there thatdon't require a huge investment,
technology that exists today.
That's what I would focuson when it comes to AI.
Awesome.
Thank you so much for sharing.
In the interest of time, I'm going tobring us to our final question, which is
(33:24):
something I ask everybody, and that is,what is your favorite interview question
when you're interviewing a marketingleader for your team, for instance?
My question that I always get tovery early is what do you think
are the three most importanttraits of being a great marketer?
Very simple.
Seems really easy.
(33:45):
It's like a softball, but what I'mlistening for is not a softball.
What I'm personally listening foris that I feel like great marketers
are fundamentally, they view therole as a listening function.
What I mean by that is I listen to themarket capital and I listen to customers.
I listen to prospects.
I listen to my closed lost deals.
I listen to competition.
(34:05):
I listen to my partners.
I listen to my own sales team.
That is often, I think, just not donewell by the marketing discipline.
Marketers somehow often feel compelledto come in and be ivory tower.
I have the answer.
Let me grant my wisdomof marketing upon you.
That is, I think, really risky.
(34:26):
And so I listen for that.
Growth-minded.
Again, they're related, butbeing growth-minded, meaning
I don't know everything.
I've got a pattern.
My pattern may or may notapply to this situation.
Some elements will, some will not, butI understand how to analyze a situation,
get to the root cause, and then myskills and background to bear, but also
(34:48):
know where I don't have those skillsand go get them, either in my team
as I hire or consultants or whatever.
Then, finally, data-driven objectivity.
Those are the three things I wanna hearabout is committing to the rev ops layer
and having data, objective data to tryto guide the entire executive team.
That's great.
Thank you.
I like those.
And if you only hear two out of thethree do you probe for the third?
(35:11):
I almost never hear all three.
I mean, honestly, I almost never hearall those three from me personally.
But I like to hear at least one of them.
Yeah.
The reason I ask that question is whatI'm really listening for, again, getting
to the root of the question and whyI ask it is I think great marketers
listen well and they're growth-minded.
Not so great marketers, at least inmy opinion, come in thinking they know
(35:32):
everything, like they can just spreadtheir wisdom across the organization.
And that I think is a problemfor the profession at times.
Yeah.
That's what I'm trying to diagnose.
Yeah.
That's great.
Well, thank you so muchfor joining us on The Get.
This has been awesome to have you, James.
I love being here, Erica.
Always good to talk to you.
Thanks for having me.
We'll talk again soon.
All right.
Take care.
(35:53):
That was James Lamberti.
Now, think of how you can get togreater CEO/CMO alignment through
spirit of collaborative risk mitigation.
Next time on The Get, you'll hearmore from me and from another guest.
Don't miss it.
Thanks for listening to The GetI'm your host, Erica Seidel.
The Get is here to drive smartdecisions around recruiting and
(36:14):
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
We explore the trends, tribulations,and triumphs of today's top
marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
If you liked thisepisode, please share it.
For more about The Get,visit TheGetPodcast.com.
To learn more about my executive searchpractice, which focuses on recruiting the
make-money marketing leaders rather thanthe make-it-pretty ones, follow me on
(36:35):
LinkedIn or visit TheConnectiveGood.com.
The Get is produced by Evo Terraof Simpler Media Productions.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.