September 12, 2024 • 44 mins
A good leader evolves over time. A CMO’s perspective will shift as they go from first-time CMO to repeat CMO, or to CRO or CEO. As they build experience, they are able to sidestep common pitfalls and react more efficiently to new challenges. At the same time, their perception of risk in a role evolves as they get more exposure. There's an 'arc of caution' that CMOs often go through, from being open-minded early on in their careers, to being able to recognize risky situations once they have more marketing leadership experience, to being more risk-averse and attuned to the 'warts' of a role once they have significantly more experience than other marketing leaders.
In this episode of The Get, host Erica Seidel discusses the complexities of hiring CMOs in B2B SaaS companies. The conversation explores the importance of the right type of marketing leader for different phases of a company's evolution, the vital role of clear communication between CEOs and CMOs, and how CMOs can balance producing value in year 1 with delivering longer-term value beyond year one.
She is joined by Norman Guadagno, a seasoned CMO who has led marketing at Mimecast, Acoustic, and Carbonite, and who shares his experience as a CMO and CEO. Norman illustrates how experience as a marketing leader shapes a CMO's risk awareness and decision-making process.
You'll learn about:
- The 'arc of caution' in career progression
- Interaction between CMOs and CEOs - the role of a CMO can significantly vary depending on the company's stage of growth and the right marketing leader at one stage may not be the right one at a different stage
- How to embrace the duality of delivering on short-term demand capture with longer-term brand building, and how to set expectations for longer-term impacts with the CEO and other C-suite leaders
- How 50% of the CMO role has nothing to do with marketing
- Managing timeframes - first-time CMOs may be overly optimistic about how long it takes to implement change, while seasoned CMOs understand realistic timeframes for results
- Evolving dynamics in the C-Suite - "not every company needs a CMO"
- How sometimes less is more with interview questions - start simple and give the candidate room to expand on what’s important to them
This episode provides valuable insights for both CMOs and CEOs seeking to make informed hiring decisions.
00:00 Introduction to The Get
00:16 The Journey from CMO to CEO
01:14 Introducing Norman Guadagno
02:13 Advice for Aspiring CMOs
04:43 Navigating Company Culture and Change
05:21 The Dynamics of Executive Change
13:51 Balancing Short-Term and Long-Term Goals
22:07 The Role of the CMO in Business Strategy
25:33 Embracing Unique Skills and Roles
26:19 Ego and Humility in Career Progression
27:25 The CEO's Perspective on Hiring a CMO
31:00 Demonstrating Commitment to Marketing
35:25 Navigating Career Trauma and Transparency
40:49 Insights on Interviewing and Hiring
45:51 Final Thoughts and Reflections
The Get is here to drive smart decisions around recruiting and leadership in B2B SaaS marketing. We explore the trends, tribulations, and triumphs of today’s top marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
This season’s theme is The Race to Reduce Risk in CMO Recruiting.
The Get’s host is Erica Seidel, who runs The Connective Good, an executive search practice with a hyper-focus on recruiting CMOs and VPs of Marketing, especially in B2B SaaS.
If you are looking to hire a CMO or VP of Marketing of the ‘make money’
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello, and welcome to The Get.
(00:02):
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
This season, we focus on the raceto reduce risk when it comes to a
match between a company and a CMO.
How can you find out what you needto find out before saying yes so
that you make a match that sticks?
Today, we'll look at how someone'sperspective changes as they go through
the journey from first-time CMO torepeat CMO to a role like CEO or CRO.
(00:27):
If you think about it, being inyour, say, third or fourth CMO
role is a bit like being a Sherpa.
You've climbed a mountain before, butof course, each time you climb, the
conditions are different, the weatheris different, the precise path you
take up that mountain is different, andthe people you're with are different.
So you can bring a mix of experienceand fresh eyes to a new scale journey.
(00:49):
But, with more of these scalejourneys, you may get more cautious
about which roles you say yes to.
I have noticed that many CMOs whohave served in the role multiple
times are way more aware of riskbefore saying yes to that role.
They can see around the corners.
They can anticipate the challengesdifferently than people who have
not been in the CMO seat before.
(01:09):
Today, we'll talk about all ofthis with someone I know who
will reflect on his journey.
My guest is Norman Guadagno.
He's been a CMO multiple times,most recently at Mimecast,
and previously at Acoustic.
Before that, he ledmarketing for Carbonite.
He has been a CEO as well, leadingNorbella in the media space.
I'm looking forward to talkingwith Norman about a lot of things.
(01:31):
What does a multi-time CMO haveto share with their pre-CMO self?
How has his perspective on riskchanged over time when assessing roles?
And what has he learned abouta strong CMO and CEO dance?
Let's go.
Norman, welcome to the show.
It's a pleasure to be here, Erica.
I'm excited to talk.
And I'm excited to take thisjourney up the mountain.
(01:52):
Excellent.
Excellent.
Well, let's, let's climb this mountain.
And I have to say that wasn't my take.
I did a previous podcast episode with awoman named Christy Marble, former client
of mine who had been CMO at Concur, andshe came up with that model, the Sherpa
thing, and I was like, this is brilliant.
It's a, it's a great
right, right?
And You have, you'vebeen in that Sherpa role.
(02:13):
So I guess my first question for youis just given the current climate, I'm
wondering, just let's kick off, like whatadvice would you give your pre-CMO self
today as it relates to reducing risk?
It's really a great question.
And there's two things that Iwould keep in mind first off.
As we go up that mountain, as wego through the room multiple times,
(02:34):
of course we learn new things.
But I also think the environmenttoday is very different than it
even was when I took my firstmarketing leadership role years ago.
And you have to factor both ofthose things into the equation.
So when I look back at what advice wouldI give myself, or frankly what advice
(02:55):
would I give anyone right now, it's makesure there's a clear understanding of,
not just what the role entails, whatthe expectations of marketing are going
to be for the CEO and the board, andwhere the company is on its journey.
(03:18):
Because the function of the CMO andthe function of marketing changes
fairly dramatically depending onwhere the company is in its journey.
Those are a key set of inputsto the decision-making process.
I would also caution myself, as if Icould possibly caution myself, I would
caution myself to not over index on theability of the role and the department
(03:48):
to make dramatic change quickly.
I think younger me felt that, Oh,that's something I could turn around
in a quarter or two quarters, orthat's something I could implement in
a few months and we could see results.
It always seems to take longerfor many, many different reasons,
which I'm sure we could discuss.
(04:09):
So I would give myself the gift oflearning that things do take longer
than you think they're going to
Yeah.
Yeah.
We've talked previously on this podcast,perhaps you and I have talked about
this one on one, but this paradox of amarketing leader is both a peacemaker
and a changemaker at the same time.
Yes.
So you get hired into the roleand it's like, Oh, well, we need
you to make change, but do it ourway, and so you're kind of caught
(04:31):
between this rock and a hard place.
I think that's interesting, even juston the change side that you think,
like, oh, I can get this, this, this,that, and that done, but you've got
to bring people along with you, and
-You do and every culture is different too.
So as you go from company to company,you want to make sure you understand, is
(04:53):
it a culture that adapts well to change?
By the way, everyone will say thatthey do, although some will be
honest and say, ohh, maybe not.
Maybe we don't adopt well to change.
And there are cultures where it'sdifficult to get things done.
For any number of reasons.
And you have to factor that in.
I have been fortunate that I'veworked in a diverse set of cultures
(05:16):
across many companies, and I've seendifferent ways in which things get done.
Then you also see the reality of,it's not just you coming in as
change maker, peacemaker, but it'smost likely in many circumstances,
particularly nowadays, that there is alot of executive change taking place.
(05:36):
As companies prime themselves foran exit event, there's often a
complete change out in the C-Suite.
After companies go private, there's oftena complete change out in the C-Suite.
After companies go public, there'soften a complete change out.
So each time, you're not just introducingone new piece, you're often introducing
(05:56):
multiple new pieces simultaneously.
And that puts risk into the equation.
Because I recall even when I joinedMimecast, about six months after
I joined, we hired a new CRO.
Who turned out to be terrificand I was a great partner with.
But I didn't know What I didn't know.
(06:17):
I didn't know who that was going to be.
I was fortunate enough to interviewthe candidates, but it could have
gone in a number of different ways.
So I got in the role and then all ofa sudden, six months later, there's
my number one counterpart, the CRO,and we work together really well,
but may not have gone that way.
That often happens in companies,that you're moving pieces in
and out, and you're trying tofind that elusive chemistry.
(06:42):
You're trying to find that way thatyou can work together and it, you're
trying to do it in real time withthe pressure of quarterly results
and driving the right numbers.
It's a fascinating set of moving pieces.
It's truly three dimensional chess.
Yeah, it's like in, as marketers, wetalk about A B testing or, A B C testing.
And this is like A B C DE F G testing, you know?
(07:03):
This, this is pure, multi-factor testing.
Let's change everything, everyday, and see what happens.
Right.
Exactly.
So, do you think there is thisarc of caution as you look
at the arc of your career?
Or maybe it's not just yourcareer, but other careers.
Cause in my mind, it seems early onin somebody's career, they're like,
yay, I have a great new CMO role.
(07:23):
And they might not do as muchdue diligence about it as they
will for their second role.
Second role they'll probably knowthat due diligence, third, fourth.
Yeah, I would imagine like risk would,caution would kind of go up over time,
at a certain point, because I have CMOswho will say, Oh, I just don't want to
do this again after a certain point.
And,
have made that statement,I think, even to you.
(07:44):
It's one we use to, Ithink, to calm ourselves.
Oh, maybe.
Yeah, right.
Because people can still stick with it.
Then people can get to this pointof, actually, I'll say yes to
anything, because I'm doing itfractionally, or I'm on the board,
or, I'm an advisor to a company.
So does that make sense,that kind of arc of caution?
It, uh, it
does.
Can you comment on that?
I like the notion of this arc of caution.
(08:04):
In some ways, it's like if you'relearning to drive race cars.
If you learn to drive at high speed,I know how to do it in theory, I
don't know, I don't do it in practice.
But even as a regular driver, you findthat you're often very cautious turning.
We've all done that.
(08:24):
Only over time do you find that it'sactually accelerating into turns
gives you the necessary ability toactually go around the turn safely.
You're like, oh wait, I've alwaysslowed down and it felt worse,
but in fact it's acceleration.
So you learn a set ofskills that mitigate risk.
And when I think about that, thatevolution going into a job after
(08:48):
job, you learn more with eachone about the potential risks.
So your aperture is broader,but you also learn about the
mitigation strategies along the way.
So you know how to dig deeper intothem, and frankly, you know how
to confront something that maybeyou've never confronted before.
Because the first time you see areally wicked curve on a mountain
(09:12):
road, you're like, uh, what do I do?
But after you do it a few times, and Ilive on curvy back roads in the country
here in Connecticut, so I do this a lot.
You're like, oh, pshew,pshew, pshew, pshew.
I know exactly how to get aroundthose, because you start to see it.
It's much like that in the job.
The first time going in, you'relike, Oh, I know how to do marketing.
(09:33):
They just didn't tell you thatfifty percent of your role as a CMO
has nothing to do with marketing.
Like, wait, I don't know how to do that.
I don't know how to do that.
I was just having a specific exampleof this discussion with someone who
works for me or who did work for meat Mimecast recently in terms of our
business development organization, right?
So I had, at Mimecast, I had ahundred BDRs globally working in my
(09:59):
organization doing traditional BDR,inbound, outbound, lead generation.
In talking with my BDR leader wewere reflecting on the fact that it's
probably half the CMOs out there haveexperience with a business development
organization and probably half don't.
And if you're in the half that doesn't,the first time you're presented with
(10:24):
it, you're going to be like, Oh!
Well, they're just on the phone makingoutbound calls, or they're taking
inbound leads, and not realizing,in fact, the depth and complexity
of the reality of a BDR organizationand how to manage it effectively.
I'd had one before Mimecast, butI'd never had one of this size.
I learned a lot of things.
That if I go into another organization inthe future that has a BDR organization,
(10:48):
my skill level went up here.
And so, my ability to ask, hopefully,informed questions went here, so
that I'm actually reducing my riskby having more knowledge about it.
So it is this constant balancing.
Yes, you're mitigating risk.
Of course risk is increasing,and the environment's increasing,
and the demands are increasing.
(11:09):
But you're also, you're givingyourself a set of tools to navigate,
to ask questions, and to know howto deal with the new things that
you're being asked to deal with.
That's great.
Though, you've been a CEOas well serving marketers.
So that's interesting.
I'm wondering, has thatchanged your perspective?
Is there a CEO perspective that you havenow that you think some CMOs are lacking?
(11:34):
Like in that conversationbetween CMO and CEO?
Yeah, it's an interesting question.
Having been a CEO of a smallprivate media agency I realized
that my job was first and foremostactually a combination of business
development and managing the business.
I think that a lot of CMOshave not necessarily done the
(11:58):
business development part.
And/or thinking holisticallyabout managing the business.
It gets back to what I said earlier.
The first time you're a CMO,you may not realize that only
half your job is marketing.
Half of your job is being part of theC-Suite, being part of the executive
team and leading the business.
(12:18):
And that requires adifferent set of skills.
So having sat in that CEO seat fora little while, even on a smaller
scale, I learned that I had tothink like a business person first,
and in fact, not like a marketer.
That I had to be able tobring business development,
relationship skills to the table.
(12:40):
A lot of CMOs are out there meetingwith customers and engaging, but a lot
are not, a lot are not in that role.
So then when you then have to work for aCEO, you start to think about, oh wait,
that person is doing this because they'refocused on outbound business development.
They're thinking holisticallyabout the business.
(13:02):
They're trying to think about their team,their C-Suite, and how to manage it.
As a CEO, you all of a sudden have a teamthat's comprised of multiple functions.
And they each have a voice.
And it's at a broaderscale than as a marketer.
Where yes, you have multiple marketingfunctions, but there's a core there.
I think that every C role, everybodyin the C-Suite should get some of
(13:28):
that experience in a different typeof C-level or very senior role.
So they get more of that perspectiveto say, hey, we're gonna actually have
business discussions now, not a marketingor sales or a finance discussion.
It's a business discussion aboutthe right way to drive the business
forward.
And that gives you a betterperspective ultimately.
(13:49):
Yeah, yeah, that's great.
One thing that I've heard you talkabout before is that the CMO role is on
a slightly different time horizon forproducing value than many other functions,
which, to your point, if you sit acrossthe whole business, if you think business
first, marketing second, you'll get that.
Yep.
But how should the CEOand the CMO navigate that?
(14:10):
Because I think that's where a lot ofCMOs kind of get stuck because they say
yes to roles and the CEO thinks they'regonna just, especially in this climate,
like, Oh, you're gonna drive pipelineand drive revenue this year and it's
like, well, the CMO is also about drivingrevenue year two, three, four, five.
So how can CEOs and CMOs betterhave that conversation in your view?
(14:31):
It's a complex conversation to be sure.
Everyone brings aninteresting perspective to it.
Fundamentally, I think the CMO has toembrace the duality of no matter what, or
at least most of the time, you're going tobe asked to produce something short term.
(14:52):
Just the way business works.
And what you have to be able to dois explain, yes, I can do X, Y, Z.
But you also have to beright, clear, upfront.
There's a set of other thingsthat are going to take longer.
And I want to make sure I laythem out right from the start.
(15:13):
And I give you my best estimateon how long this will take.
Oftentimes, and we can't avoidthis discussion, it'll be brand.
"I want to build a big brand."
"Let's make the brand better."
Awesome!
We all love that.
But it doesn't happen overnight.
Everyone knows that,but doesn't know that.
(15:36):
You know it intellectually, but everyexecutive, CEOs included, are under
pressure from someone else to get resultsfaster, especially in today's climate.
You have to start to thinkabout, there's not one timeline
that you want to talk about.
You want to talk about the timelinefor things that will happen in months
(15:57):
and quarters, and the timeline forthings that will happen in quarters and
years, and how do you balance those?
And how do you know that, I understandthat it's going to take a while.
And this is something I've experiencedmultiple times in my career.
I have had the discussion with boards,with other executives, where I say,
(16:21):
this is the thing we're going to do.
We'll talk about brand.
We're going to invest in brand building.
It's going to take threequarters, four quarters, whatever
numbers I put on the board.
And then I also say, we need tohave it be sustained investment.
If you lose your patience in twoquarters and want to pull the investment,
we shouldn't do it at all becausethen it's just wasted investment.
(16:46):
So to try to put some context aroundit, it's like, hey, we need to
get the brand from here to there.
It's going to cost us X amount of money.
We're going to do it over the course ofSix quarters before we can start to see
true - we're gonna do a brand study here.
We're gonna do one here.
And I'm gonna tell you explicitly, ifyou're gonna lose faith or if you're
(17:08):
gonna say, "Oooh, two quarters inI don't think we should be spending
that money," just don't do it.
Let's spend the money elsewhere.
Because it's not gonna pay off.
In fact, you start to tease the marketand the market just starts to get some
exposure to you, and then you pull back.
So it's much better to bereally clear on context.
Well, you don't want to makethat long term investment?
(17:30):
Okay, let's put that intosome shorter term stuff.
We need to do demand creation?
Let's do some demand creation.
We need to work on our partner marketing.
Let's work on our partner marketing.
Whatever other thing it may be thatmight have a shorter time span, and
then maybe we can get to that later.
and it's hard sometimes for marketersto make those statements, to say, this
(17:53):
needs four quarters, six quarters,eight quarters of sustained investment.
If you're not willing to dothat, we shouldn't do any of it
because it just won't benefit us.
Right.
That then shows you as a goodeconomic business decision maker also.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I like that, we talked aboutthe arc of caution, but there's also
like this arc of CEO reaction, maybe?
(18:16):
Where the CMO could say,okay, in a few months, you're
going to start to feel antsy.
You know, you're goingto start to feel like
- Yes!
- okay, we should be seeing fruits fromthis, and maybe we won't, so I'm here
to tell you now that you're going tofeel uncomfortable, and we'll have to
navigate through this, and if you're toouncomfortable about feeling uncomfortable,
[chuckle] let's cancel it now.
(18:37):
Don't do this.
And that, Erica, is a reallygreat way to think about it.
The CEO is trying to do many things,and it's a darned hard job, right?
Any C-Suite job is really hard.
The CEO is trying to do many things,and one of the things they're relying
on their team on is to give them, notjust good advice, but to also frame
programs in the right context so theyknow what it means and how they're
(19:00):
going to get from here to there.
And to help them see what they don't see.
One of the things CMOs often spenda lot of time with the C-Suite,
with the CEO and with board, isexplaining how the website works.
It's a common thing thathappens all the time.
I and many of my peers and many peoplethat work deeply in that space know
(19:24):
that we have to take into considerationthat from the C-Suite and the board,
there's actually a completely differentset of visitors to the website
than marketing is thinking about.
Marketing thinks about visitors whoare primarily buyers or prospects.
(19:45):
The C-Suite, the board, they come inas what we affectionately call readers.
They read the website like a book.
And they go off and they read thecompetitor websites like books.
And then they say, "Well, this bookwas a lot more exciting than that book.
Can't you be more like that?"
(20:05):
And it's an absolutely fair question.
Except the bulk of marketing isoperating on a model of, we know
visitors who come in, we know thepaths they take, we know that a typical
website, just looking at, you know,the most recent one I've worked on.
On the website, there were 600 pages?
(20:26):
Of which 500-plus of themwere not in the navigation.
Right?
That's a very typical website.
It's all deep linked pagesthat no reader will ever find.
But it's critical to how younurture leads and prospects and
take them on their journey andget them to where they need to be.
It's all data-driven and all of that.
(20:47):
So this is an example of it's themarketer's job to help educate others
over the fact that, yes, you'rereading the website is important.
And we want to address the factthat you couldn't find XYZ on there
and you saw it on another website.
But we also want you to understandthat that's not our customer's journey.
(21:09):
So we have to create the rightbalance between those two things.
And this is just one of manyexamples of the fact that marketing,
like the trite and proverbialiceberg, is mostly underwater.
You don't see most of it.
You specifically don't see it in today'sdata-driven, highly-targeted model.
You specifically don't see it if you'reanother C executive in a different
(21:33):
department who comes to visit the websiteor signs up for an email newsletter.
You only see bits and pieces of it.
Part of the job of the CMO is toshow the whole fabric of the customer
journey so that they can see, ohwait, I didn't realize marketing
was doing this, this, and this.
Oh, that's interesting.
(21:53):
Okay, thank you for helping mesee and put those pieces together.
It's fascinating.
Yeah, if a company doesn't get that-so you're talking about marketing
educating the CEO and the restof the C-Suite and showing them
really the full value of them.
But if a company doesn't get that,and if they are still stuck on, okay,
this year, this year, and not aboutfuture years, it feels to me like the
(22:15):
CMO has to choose between this deliveron current pipe versus stand up for
transformation, but risk leaving ifthey are standing up for transformation.
Any thoughts on that?
And have you seen that?
I have probably more thoughtsthan we have time at this point.
Let me reframe it a little bit.
(22:35):
Not all companies need a CMO.
They may think they do.
But sometimes companies would benefitmore from simply an incredibly
strong CRO and maybe an incrediblystrong revenue marketing leader.
The CMO is supposed to be thestrategic C-level role that ties
(22:57):
all these pieces together - revenue,demand, brand, partner, right?
Sometimes companies don't need that.
Especially companies that might wantto veer more towards like, hey, we
just need to crank through, fill inthe pipe right now, and not worry
too much about these other things.
(23:17):
Then the question a CMO candidateor a CMO in-seat should be asking
is this actually a necessary rolein this company at this time?
You're aware, as others are,that there are companies that
are eliminating the CMO role.
They're like, oh no, we have a headof brand and comms, we have a head
of demand or revenue or somethinglike that, and that's sufficient.
(23:39):
And in some companiesthat might be sufficient.
So it actually goes back tothe what is the CMO role?
I know from my own experiences thatI want to be in a strategic role.
I want to be guiding the companystrategically from the perspective of how
do we make sure our story is strong anddistinct and it's out there in the market?
(24:02):
How do we make sure that we'regetting the best quality leads
at the volume that we want?
How do we do all of these other pieces?
But if I see that that's not a goodfit for me, I'm like, oh, hold on.
Maybe I should not bethe person that's here.
And this is maybe the bitter pill thatexecutives struggle with sometimes.
(24:23):
I've seen this in places across theboard and I learned long ago that
many executives want to believethat they can solve any problem
that's put in front of them.
Versus believing that some problemsmay require someone different than
them, or a different org structure,or a different something else.
(24:46):
I think the smart CMO in 2024and beyond is able to say,
wait, I can't actually solve theproblems I'm being asked to solve.
What I can recommend isthis, this, and this.
Or, it's yes, I can solve that problem.
Here's what I need to solve that problem.
(25:06):
Give me X number of quarters.
Give me X number of dollars.
Give me X number of people.
Whatever it may be, so that I cansolve that problem and not just try to
solve all the problems simultaneously.
It is a very dynamic situation.
But over time I have found that I realizethat not every company needs a CMO and not
(25:28):
every company needs the same type of CMO.
I'm different than the nextperson, than the next person.
We all bring unique skills to thetable and companies go through
different parts of their evolution.
I was the right CMO for this period ofthe company, but maybe I'm not the right
(25:48):
CMO for this period of the company.
And it's on me, actually, to be ableto say, yeah, that probably makes
more sense, and I'll be happier ifI'm not here and someone else is.
That's just part of the, backto the risk curve, right?
You become, I believe, better at embracingwhere you can have positive impact and
(26:10):
where someone else might be able to havethat positive impact that isn't really
what you want to do, what you're bestat, or something along those lines.
Yeah.
It makes me think, listening to youthat, something I heard once, which
is over the course of your career,your ego tends to go down because
earlier on there could be a lot of ego.
And so you want that role and you wannaprovide all the value that you can in
(26:33):
that role, even if the company is notreally willing to absorb or invest
- Yes.
- you know, for that value.
Over time, yeah, I think you're right.
I think CMOs would save themselvesa lot of angst if they would
say, okay, this isn't quite me.
This isn't me.
And you're right, your ego is down.
I like to think of it as the moreyou fail, the more you gain humility.
(26:56):
And the more humility you have, thebetter able you are to say, Mmm!
Maybe I'm not the best fit here.
And that's true in life as it is in CMO.
We're not all the best fit.
We're not all the best dancer.
We're not all the best singer.
We're not all the best partner.
We don't all fit in everywhere.
You have to realize, if we areactors playing a role, at some
(27:19):
point, we're just not a good
fit for a particular role.
That's a good way to think about it.
A role for somebody else.
Yeah.
So let's look at this from the other side,the standpoint of a CEO hiring a CMO.
I'm curious, what do you think isthe biggest risk a CEO should be
looking to mitigate when hiring a CMO?
Is it anything different thanwhat we've been talking about?
I think it's a lot ofwhat we've talked about.
(27:41):
if I were a CEO in a company hiringa CMO, I would be looking for the CMO
that knows the role that they can play.
And that's, that can come in manydifferent ways and I'll circle
back to something you and I mayhave discussed before, and I'm
sure you get a lot in your role.
(28:01):
We all have roles.
Which is, over the past decade, Ihave gotten dozens, if not hundreds of
phone calls from executive recruiters.
"Hi, Norman.
Hi, it's Erica."
"Hi, Erica."
" Company X is looking for a new CMO."
"Oh, cool."
"And they really want somebodywho can focus on brand."
(28:25):
Or, "Hi, Norman."
Hi."
"Company Y is looking for anew CMO and they really want
someone who can focus on demand."
That's one of the most key things whenyou're a CEO to be thinking about.
If you think you have a brand problem ordemand problem, doesn't matter which side,
(28:46):
if your potential candidate's answer is,yes, I'm great at brand or demand, that's
fifty percent of what you need to know.
The other fifty percent isthem explaining how brand and
demand are actually connected.
(29:06):
the one who says, I'm awesome atbrand or demand, and who can't
speak about the other side, may notactually be the best CMO for you.
Because a brand problem or demand problemin the JD for a new CMO, is usually a,
this is what we need to solve today,not what we need to solve long term.
(29:30):
The smarter, better equipped, moreexperienced CMOs are often able to say,
yes, we see you have a brand problemor demand problem, and let me show
you how these things are connected andhow I am really good at X, Y, and Z.
Second thing that a CEO really has tofocus in on when looking at a CMO is just
(29:53):
understanding how do they think about thethings that they're not really good at?
And that they're willing to,in fact, take off their plate.
A perfect example is product marketing.
Lots of marketing leaders come upthrough product marketing, lots don't.
(30:15):
Those that don't, may not havea real depth of understanding
around product marketing.
Are they willing to say, yeah,that's probably not my strongest
area, but I'd love to have anamazing leader in place there.
Or, I'm okay with that movingto the product organization.
There's any number of variables here,but I think the CEO who's looking
(30:39):
for a unicorn is going to get that,something that actually doesn't exist.
The CEO who's looking for a member oftheir team who's willing to say, I'm
strong in this, I'm weaker in this,I know how these things fit together,
and I'm willing to sign up for that, Ithink is going to get a better leader.
That's great.
Yeah, thank you.
(31:00):
Any thoughts on how a CEO canbest demonstrate their commitment
and support to marketing?
Because a lot of times, CEOs willsay, Oh, yes you can help define
what the role is, you can helpdefine what the budget should be.
And it can seem from the outside,like, Oh, yes, this company is
really going to support marketing.
(31:20):
But are there any clues that thatCMO candidate can look for to see
if that support is really there?
And conversely, what can CEOsdo to demonstrate that support?
Yeah, that's tricky.
I think really that's one wherethe proof is in the doing.
Having worked for a number of CEOs,all of who bring very different skill
(31:45):
sets to the table, I don't know thatI've ever known a priori exactly how
they're going to play out in termsof how they want to interact with
marketing, how they support marketing.
Because I've worked with CEOs, I've workedfor CEOs who I was told in advance, Oh,
that person wants to have their fingersover all over everything in marketing.
(32:05):
And that's what they've always done.
And then I got to work for that person andI said, hey, that's our job, not your job.
And they're like, oh, okay, boom.
So you realize then was that becauseno one ever said that to them?
Because they never had a personwho felt comfortable saying that?
And it is unique for each situation.
The dynamics are different.
(32:27):
What I think you have to do asa CMO going into a new role is
be as informed as you can be.
Then realize that on the day youstart, you pretty much know nothing.
Then you start learningwhat's actually happening.
You make decisions along the way.
(32:48):
That's just the reality of it.
You and I have been involved, myself, indozens of interviews and things like that.
You in hundreds and hundredsof candidates and interviews.
Frankly, it doesn't teach you a lotabout what's going to happen on day one.
(33:09):
If you say yes, you just going on the,okay, this is not going to be horrible.
If they told you in advance, oh yeah,it's standard practice here that at 9 a.
m.
we yell at everybody, and then at 6 p.
m.
if they're not at their desk,we dock them a day's pay.
Okay, probably not a placeyou want to work, right?
(33:29):
But for the most part, youwalk in thinking, okay, I see
there's some good, some bad.
It's a culture that does this or that.
But you know nothing on day one.
You begin a new journey thenthat you start to learn.
Then it's on you as the executive toeither say, I'm willing to accept, willing
to try to make change, or I want to leave.
(33:54):
Yeah.
That's
true.
Right?
It's all you can do.
And then, show up on day one andtake the little notebook that you
wrote all those notes down duringthe interviews that, oh, this...
toss it aside and start a new notebook.
Because then you're really in it.
I like that.
I like that notebook idea.
That's a great tip.
As you said, sometimes,these things don't work out.
One theme that has come up in thispodcast series so far this season
(34:18):
has been about career trauma.
That might sound like a little bitstrong, but you know, it's funny, if
you look on LinkedIn, if your feedis anywhere similar to mine, which I
imagine there's some overlap, right?
You find these very
-Yep.
- raw disclosures about careerchallenges and short tenures and
people being on the bench for alittle bit longer than they expected.
So, I guess I've been thinking a lot abouthow transparent somebody should be about
(34:41):
their trauma and what is the risk rewardcalculation for sharing such trauma?
And maybe this is like small t trauma.
When is disclosing it intentional?
When is that impulsive?
Can it build trust?
Can it burden trust?
Any thoughts on this?
I have a lot of thoughts on thisbecause I, like you, probably
spend a lot of time on LinkedIn.
(35:03):
I spend a lot of timereading those things.
I spend a lot of time writing.
I think it's a great platform.
I think there's a fewthings that come to mind.
I have the utmost respect for everyonechoosing to present themselves the
way they want to present themselves.
What I find, perhaps, a littlefrustrating sometimes is what I
(35:23):
think of as performative trauma.
Where it's clearly just a way to say, oh,this was horrible, but I'm a great person.
I need a new job.
And that happens.
It's a choice.
Probably not the choice that I would make.
I think that I have mostly opted for astrategy of being actually exceptionally
(35:50):
thoughtful about what I post.
It's not that I don't want topost a, oh, this happened, or that
happened, or I'm supportive ofthis, or I'm supportive of that.
But I want to be thoughtful about thefact that it serves multiple audiences.
When you're trauma posting, you'renot just speaking about yourself,
(36:13):
you're speaking about the company.
You're not just speaking to your peers,you're speaking to a vast audience
of potential people who you may workfor, with, or who may work for you.
You're not simply just havinga moment, if you and I were
sitting over coffee, to vent.
Oh, this place treated mehorribly, blah, blah, blah.
(36:37):
You're actually putting something outthere that has impact on many more
people and companies than you may think.
You may choose to do that as well,and again, it's a personal choice.
I think that the better choice isto figure out first, what are you
(36:57):
trying to achieve with a post?
If you're clear in that, work backwards.
Oh, does this trauma posting getme what I'm trying to achieve?
Or not?
And if not, then maybe it's bestserved in a different environment.
(37:20):
Most of us at the C-level belongto multiple organizations of
peers, peer huddles, groups.
Those are great places to havethose types of discussions.
I've been very fortunate that Ibelong to multiple CMO groups,
gotten tremendous value out ofhaving those honest discussions.
But they're not actually thingsI would post on LinkedIn, because
(37:45):
at the end of the day, especiallyas a C-level executive, you're
not just someone who's like, Ah!
XYZ happened, I feel horrible.
You're one of the peoplewho's running the company.
So you have to take someaccountability for that too.
And so it's really complex.
And I think that we've turnedLinkedIn into whatever it is.
(38:11):
Just like on X or Instagram or anythingelse, it requires a certain degree of
thought about what is your intent andare you actually achieving that intent?
Who will end up seeing this?
And is that someone who you wouldwant to have this discussion with?
(38:32):
I like that.
Somebody once said to me, before yousay something or post something, use
the acronym WAIT - Why Am I Talking?
[They laugh] And it's true.
Right.
It's like, yeah, thinking through it.
Why?
Why?
What is the why?
Yes.
And everyone has their own perceptions.
Everyone, for the most part, findsthat often times their perception is
(38:56):
valid and true and should be respected.
But time and context can alsochange how that perception may be
Right.
And so it's, it is very complex.
I think that we're in a world nowwhere the ability of self expression
is tremendous and the opportunityfor self expression is important.
(39:18):
As a fierce advocate of freespeech, I think voices should
have the opportunity to speak.
But also, as a fierce advocateof being thoughtful in the impact
your words have on others, I thinkthat you have to balance the two.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
That's helpful.
I know we're running out of time, soI have one final question for you, and
(39:40):
that is do you have a favorite interviewquestion that you like to ask people
who are interviewing for your team?
I have become the world's mostboring interviewer over time.
And let me give that context, right?
I've now made a grandiose statement.
Why am I talking?
I made a grandiose statement.
(40:02):
Many, many years ago, earlier inmy career, I spent an inordinate
amount, I should say, I wasted aninordinate amount of time thinking
up clever interview questions.
Why?
Well, if you go even further back in mycareer, when I was in graduate school,
I like wrote my whole master's thesison the job interview, and what happens,
(40:22):
and all sorts of interesting things.
And most decisions in a job intervieware made in the first thirty seconds.
You actually - has nothing to dowith the questions that are asked.
People make decisions like that.
So, earlier in my career, when Iwas young and dumb, as opposed to
now, when I'm older and dumber,I came up with clever questions.
It was mostly about me, not about them.
Over time, I realized that that was nota particularly useful thing to be doing.
(40:45):
And so I started to whittle down,whittle down, whittle down, whittle down.
Now I'm at the point where Ibasically ask the same three
questions to facilitate conversation.
Those questions tend to be of the formare, me what you're interested in doing.
And I make that very broad.
(41:06):
Tell me what you hope to learn.
And tell me the type of environmentyou want to do those things in.
And I use that as thebasis for conversation.
Because I've come to the belief thatan interview really is a conversation.
And the more detailed the questions I ask,the less interesting the conversation.
(41:29):
I like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Do you ever ask them thinkabout that ahead of time?
So it's more articulate?
I'm just thinking myself, likeI would be way more articulate
if I had noodled on that.
Yeah, I don't actually.
I don't because I'm also, I willadmit that I'm also looking for
how do they think in real time?
Yes!
And one of the skills I look for inmarketers is being a good communicator.
(41:52):
Regardless of the type of marketingthey're doing, I think that
being a strong communicator is askill I like to see in marketers.
Right.
So I want to see how they react andhow they communicate in that context.
Now anybody who ever listens to thiswill know the questions I'm going
to ask and they'll be prepared.
They're not trick questions.
They're truly, I'm interested inlearning something about you that
(42:14):
I can't get from your resume.
And hopefully that you'regoing to share with me.
When people tell me about the typeof environment that they want to be
in, it can mean many, many things.
What I hear more often than not, arenot in fact the type of environment
they want to be in, but the type ofenvironment they don't want to be in.
Yeah.
(42:35):
Right?
So you think about those questionsas door openers that can get
you to interesting places.
Yeah, that's great.
And, of course, when you do thishundreds of times, you can tell the
difference between somebody who canstructure their answer very well
-versus, you know, versus not, and somebody who has a broad level
of thinking versus not, you canget the sense of their altitude.
(42:58):
I like to say altitude.
You know, how strategicversus tactical are they?
No judgment, but wheredo they land on that?
Right,
Thank you for sharing allof this great insight.
It's great to hear from somebodywho's done multiple CMO roles, a CEO
role, and has all this perspective.
So really appreciate you sharingall of this with us, Norman.
My pleasure, Erica.
That was Norman Guadagno.
(43:19):
Next time on The Get, you'll hearmore from me and from another guest.
Don't miss it.
Thanks for listening to The Get.
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
The Get is here to drive smartdecisions around recruiting and
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
We explore the trends, tribulations,and triumphs of today's top
marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
(43:40):
If you liked thisepisode, please share it.
For more about The Get,visit TheGetPodcast.Com.
To learn more about my executive searchpractice, which focuses on recruiting the
make-money marketing leaders rather thanthe make-it-pretty ones, follow me on
LinkedIn or visit TheConnectiveGood.Com.
The Get is produced by Evo Terraof Simpler Media Productions.
Hello, and welcome to The Get.
(00:02):
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
This season, we focus on the raceto reduce risk when it comes to a
match between a company and a CMO.
How can you find out what you needto find out before saying yes so
that you make a match that sticks?
Today, we'll look at how someone'sperspective changes as they go through
the journey from first-time CMO torepeat CMO to a role like CEO or CRO.
(00:27):
If you think about it, being inyour, say, third or fourth CMO
role is a bit like being a Sherpa.
You've climbed a mountain before, butof course, each time you climb, the
conditions are different, the weatheris different, the precise path you
take up that mountain is different, andthe people you're with are different.
So you can bring a mix of experienceand fresh eyes to a new scale journey.
(00:49):
But, with more of these scalejourneys, you may get more cautious
about which roles you say yes to.
I have noticed that many CMOs whohave served in the role multiple
times are way more aware of riskbefore saying yes to that role.
They can see around the corners.
They can anticipate the challengesdifferently than people who have
not been in the CMO seat before.
(01:09):
Today, we'll talk about all ofthis with someone I know who
will reflect on his journey.
My guest is Norman Guadagno.
He's been a CMO multiple times,most recently at Mimecast,
and previously at Acoustic.
Before that, he ledmarketing for Carbonite.
He has been a CEO as well, leadingNorbella in the media space.
I'm looking forward to talkingwith Norman about a lot of things.
(01:31):
What does a multi-time CMO haveto share with their pre-CMO self?
How has his perspective on riskchanged over time when assessing roles?
And what has he learned abouta strong CMO and CEO dance?
Let's go.
Norman, welcome to the show.
It's a pleasure to be here, Erica.
I'm excited to talk.
And I'm excited to take thisjourney up the mountain.
(01:52):
Excellent.
Excellent.
Well, let's, let's climb this mountain.
And I have to say that wasn't my take.
I did a previous podcast episode with awoman named Christy Marble, former client
of mine who had been CMO at Concur, andshe came up with that model, the Sherpa
thing, and I was like, this is brilliant.
It's a, it's a great
right, right?
And You have, you'vebeen in that Sherpa role.
(02:13):
So I guess my first question for youis just given the current climate, I'm
wondering, just let's kick off, like whatadvice would you give your pre-CMO self
today as it relates to reducing risk?
It's really a great question.
And there's two things that Iwould keep in mind first off.
As we go up that mountain, as wego through the room multiple times,
(02:34):
of course we learn new things.
But I also think the environmenttoday is very different than it
even was when I took my firstmarketing leadership role years ago.
And you have to factor both ofthose things into the equation.
So when I look back at what advice wouldI give myself, or frankly what advice
(02:55):
would I give anyone right now, it's makesure there's a clear understanding of,
not just what the role entails, whatthe expectations of marketing are going
to be for the CEO and the board, andwhere the company is on its journey.
(03:18):
Because the function of the CMO andthe function of marketing changes
fairly dramatically depending onwhere the company is in its journey.
Those are a key set of inputsto the decision-making process.
I would also caution myself, as if Icould possibly caution myself, I would
caution myself to not over index on theability of the role and the department
(03:48):
to make dramatic change quickly.
I think younger me felt that, Oh,that's something I could turn around
in a quarter or two quarters, orthat's something I could implement in
a few months and we could see results.
It always seems to take longerfor many, many different reasons,
which I'm sure we could discuss.
(04:09):
So I would give myself the gift oflearning that things do take longer
than you think they're going to
Yeah.
Yeah.
We've talked previously on this podcast,perhaps you and I have talked about
this one on one, but this paradox of amarketing leader is both a peacemaker
and a changemaker at the same time.
Yes.
So you get hired into the roleand it's like, Oh, well, we need
you to make change, but do it ourway, and so you're kind of caught
(04:31):
between this rock and a hard place.
I think that's interesting, even juston the change side that you think,
like, oh, I can get this, this, this,that, and that done, but you've got
to bring people along with you, and
-You do and every culture is different too.
So as you go from company to company,you want to make sure you understand, is
(04:53):
it a culture that adapts well to change?
By the way, everyone will say thatthey do, although some will be
honest and say, ohh, maybe not.
Maybe we don't adopt well to change.
And there are cultures where it'sdifficult to get things done.
For any number of reasons.
And you have to factor that in.
I have been fortunate that I'veworked in a diverse set of cultures
(05:16):
across many companies, and I've seendifferent ways in which things get done.
Then you also see the reality of,it's not just you coming in as
change maker, peacemaker, but it'smost likely in many circumstances,
particularly nowadays, that there is alot of executive change taking place.
(05:36):
As companies prime themselves foran exit event, there's often a
complete change out in the C-Suite.
After companies go private, there's oftena complete change out in the C-Suite.
After companies go public, there'soften a complete change out.
So each time, you're not just introducingone new piece, you're often introducing
(05:56):
multiple new pieces simultaneously.
And that puts risk into the equation.
Because I recall even when I joinedMimecast, about six months after
I joined, we hired a new CRO.
Who turned out to be terrificand I was a great partner with.
But I didn't know What I didn't know.
(06:17):
I didn't know who that was going to be.
I was fortunate enough to interviewthe candidates, but it could have
gone in a number of different ways.
So I got in the role and then all ofa sudden, six months later, there's
my number one counterpart, the CRO,and we work together really well,
but may not have gone that way.
That often happens in companies,that you're moving pieces in
and out, and you're trying tofind that elusive chemistry.
(06:42):
You're trying to find that way thatyou can work together and it, you're
trying to do it in real time withthe pressure of quarterly results
and driving the right numbers.
It's a fascinating set of moving pieces.
It's truly three dimensional chess.
Yeah, it's like in, as marketers, wetalk about A B testing or, A B C testing.
And this is like A B C DE F G testing, you know?
(07:03):
This, this is pure, multi-factor testing.
Let's change everything, everyday, and see what happens.
Right.
Exactly.
So, do you think there is thisarc of caution as you look
at the arc of your career?
Or maybe it's not just yourcareer, but other careers.
Cause in my mind, it seems early onin somebody's career, they're like,
yay, I have a great new CMO role.
(07:23):
And they might not do as muchdue diligence about it as they
will for their second role.
Second role they'll probably knowthat due diligence, third, fourth.
Yeah, I would imagine like risk would,caution would kind of go up over time,
at a certain point, because I have CMOswho will say, Oh, I just don't want to
do this again after a certain point.
And,
have made that statement,I think, even to you.
(07:44):
It's one we use to, Ithink, to calm ourselves.
Oh, maybe.
Yeah, right.
Because people can still stick with it.
Then people can get to this pointof, actually, I'll say yes to
anything, because I'm doing itfractionally, or I'm on the board,
or, I'm an advisor to a company.
So does that make sense,that kind of arc of caution?
It, uh, it
does.
Can you comment on that?
I like the notion of this arc of caution.
(08:04):
In some ways, it's like if you'relearning to drive race cars.
If you learn to drive at high speed,I know how to do it in theory, I
don't know, I don't do it in practice.
But even as a regular driver, you findthat you're often very cautious turning.
We've all done that.
(08:24):
Only over time do you find that it'sactually accelerating into turns
gives you the necessary ability toactually go around the turn safely.
You're like, oh wait, I've alwaysslowed down and it felt worse,
but in fact it's acceleration.
So you learn a set ofskills that mitigate risk.
And when I think about that, thatevolution going into a job after
(08:48):
job, you learn more with eachone about the potential risks.
So your aperture is broader,but you also learn about the
mitigation strategies along the way.
So you know how to dig deeper intothem, and frankly, you know how
to confront something that maybeyou've never confronted before.
Because the first time you see areally wicked curve on a mountain
(09:12):
road, you're like, uh, what do I do?
But after you do it a few times, and Ilive on curvy back roads in the country
here in Connecticut, so I do this a lot.
You're like, oh, pshew,pshew, pshew, pshew.
I know exactly how to get aroundthose, because you start to see it.
It's much like that in the job.
The first time going in, you'relike, Oh, I know how to do marketing.
(09:33):
They just didn't tell you thatfifty percent of your role as a CMO
has nothing to do with marketing.
Like, wait, I don't know how to do that.
I don't know how to do that.
I was just having a specific exampleof this discussion with someone who
works for me or who did work for meat Mimecast recently in terms of our
business development organization, right?
So I had, at Mimecast, I had ahundred BDRs globally working in my
(09:59):
organization doing traditional BDR,inbound, outbound, lead generation.
In talking with my BDR leader wewere reflecting on the fact that it's
probably half the CMOs out there haveexperience with a business development
organization and probably half don't.
And if you're in the half that doesn't,the first time you're presented with
(10:24):
it, you're going to be like, Oh!
Well, they're just on the phone makingoutbound calls, or they're taking
inbound leads, and not realizing,in fact, the depth and complexity
of the reality of a BDR organizationand how to manage it effectively.
I'd had one before Mimecast, butI'd never had one of this size.
I learned a lot of things.
That if I go into another organization inthe future that has a BDR organization,
(10:48):
my skill level went up here.
And so, my ability to ask, hopefully,informed questions went here, so
that I'm actually reducing my riskby having more knowledge about it.
So it is this constant balancing.
Yes, you're mitigating risk.
Of course risk is increasing,and the environment's increasing,
and the demands are increasing.
(11:09):
But you're also, you're givingyourself a set of tools to navigate,
to ask questions, and to know howto deal with the new things that
you're being asked to deal with.
That's great.
Though, you've been a CEOas well serving marketers.
So that's interesting.
I'm wondering, has thatchanged your perspective?
Is there a CEO perspective that you havenow that you think some CMOs are lacking?
(11:34):
Like in that conversationbetween CMO and CEO?
Yeah, it's an interesting question.
Having been a CEO of a smallprivate media agency I realized
that my job was first and foremostactually a combination of business
development and managing the business.
I think that a lot of CMOshave not necessarily done the
(11:58):
business development part.
And/or thinking holisticallyabout managing the business.
It gets back to what I said earlier.
The first time you're a CMO,you may not realize that only
half your job is marketing.
Half of your job is being part of theC-Suite, being part of the executive
team and leading the business.
(12:18):
And that requires adifferent set of skills.
So having sat in that CEO seat fora little while, even on a smaller
scale, I learned that I had tothink like a business person first,
and in fact, not like a marketer.
That I had to be able tobring business development,
relationship skills to the table.
(12:40):
A lot of CMOs are out there meetingwith customers and engaging, but a lot
are not, a lot are not in that role.
So then when you then have to work for aCEO, you start to think about, oh wait,
that person is doing this because they'refocused on outbound business development.
They're thinking holisticallyabout the business.
(13:02):
They're trying to think about their team,their C-Suite, and how to manage it.
As a CEO, you all of a sudden have a teamthat's comprised of multiple functions.
And they each have a voice.
And it's at a broaderscale than as a marketer.
Where yes, you have multiple marketingfunctions, but there's a core there.
I think that every C role, everybodyin the C-Suite should get some of
(13:28):
that experience in a different typeof C-level or very senior role.
So they get more of that perspectiveto say, hey, we're gonna actually have
business discussions now, not a marketingor sales or a finance discussion.
It's a business discussion aboutthe right way to drive the business
forward.
And that gives you a betterperspective ultimately.
(13:49):
Yeah, yeah, that's great.
One thing that I've heard you talkabout before is that the CMO role is on
a slightly different time horizon forproducing value than many other functions,
which, to your point, if you sit acrossthe whole business, if you think business
first, marketing second, you'll get that.
Yep.
But how should the CEOand the CMO navigate that?
(14:10):
Because I think that's where a lot ofCMOs kind of get stuck because they say
yes to roles and the CEO thinks they'regonna just, especially in this climate,
like, Oh, you're gonna drive pipelineand drive revenue this year and it's
like, well, the CMO is also about drivingrevenue year two, three, four, five.
So how can CEOs and CMOs betterhave that conversation in your view?
(14:31):
It's a complex conversation to be sure.
Everyone brings aninteresting perspective to it.
Fundamentally, I think the CMO has toembrace the duality of no matter what, or
at least most of the time, you're going tobe asked to produce something short term.
(14:52):
Just the way business works.
And what you have to be able to dois explain, yes, I can do X, Y, Z.
But you also have to beright, clear, upfront.
There's a set of other thingsthat are going to take longer.
And I want to make sure I laythem out right from the start.
(15:13):
And I give you my best estimateon how long this will take.
Oftentimes, and we can't avoidthis discussion, it'll be brand.
"I want to build a big brand."
"Let's make the brand better."
Awesome!
We all love that.
But it doesn't happen overnight.
Everyone knows that,but doesn't know that.
(15:36):
You know it intellectually, but everyexecutive, CEOs included, are under
pressure from someone else to get resultsfaster, especially in today's climate.
You have to start to thinkabout, there's not one timeline
that you want to talk about.
You want to talk about the timelinefor things that will happen in months
(15:57):
and quarters, and the timeline forthings that will happen in quarters and
years, and how do you balance those?
And how do you know that, I understandthat it's going to take a while.
And this is something I've experiencedmultiple times in my career.
I have had the discussion with boards,with other executives, where I say,
(16:21):
this is the thing we're going to do.
We'll talk about brand.
We're going to invest in brand building.
It's going to take threequarters, four quarters, whatever
numbers I put on the board.
And then I also say, we need tohave it be sustained investment.
If you lose your patience in twoquarters and want to pull the investment,
we shouldn't do it at all becausethen it's just wasted investment.
(16:46):
So to try to put some context aroundit, it's like, hey, we need to
get the brand from here to there.
It's going to cost us X amount of money.
We're going to do it over the course ofSix quarters before we can start to see
true - we're gonna do a brand study here.
We're gonna do one here.
And I'm gonna tell you explicitly, ifyou're gonna lose faith or if you're
(17:08):
gonna say, "Oooh, two quarters inI don't think we should be spending
that money," just don't do it.
Let's spend the money elsewhere.
Because it's not gonna pay off.
In fact, you start to tease the marketand the market just starts to get some
exposure to you, and then you pull back.
So it's much better to bereally clear on context.
Well, you don't want to makethat long term investment?
(17:30):
Okay, let's put that intosome shorter term stuff.
We need to do demand creation?
Let's do some demand creation.
We need to work on our partner marketing.
Let's work on our partner marketing.
Whatever other thing it may be thatmight have a shorter time span, and
then maybe we can get to that later.
and it's hard sometimes for marketersto make those statements, to say, this
(17:53):
needs four quarters, six quarters,eight quarters of sustained investment.
If you're not willing to dothat, we shouldn't do any of it
because it just won't benefit us.
Right.
That then shows you as a goodeconomic business decision maker also.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I like that, we talked aboutthe arc of caution, but there's also
like this arc of CEO reaction, maybe?
(18:16):
Where the CMO could say,okay, in a few months, you're
going to start to feel antsy.
You know, you're goingto start to feel like
- Yes!
- okay, we should be seeing fruits fromthis, and maybe we won't, so I'm here
to tell you now that you're going tofeel uncomfortable, and we'll have to
navigate through this, and if you're toouncomfortable about feeling uncomfortable,
[chuckle] let's cancel it now.
(18:37):
Don't do this.
And that, Erica, is a reallygreat way to think about it.
The CEO is trying to do many things,and it's a darned hard job, right?
Any C-Suite job is really hard.
The CEO is trying to do many things,and one of the things they're relying
on their team on is to give them, notjust good advice, but to also frame
programs in the right context so theyknow what it means and how they're
(19:00):
going to get from here to there.
And to help them see what they don't see.
One of the things CMOs often spenda lot of time with the C-Suite,
with the CEO and with board, isexplaining how the website works.
It's a common thing thathappens all the time.
I and many of my peers and many peoplethat work deeply in that space know
(19:24):
that we have to take into considerationthat from the C-Suite and the board,
there's actually a completely differentset of visitors to the website
than marketing is thinking about.
Marketing thinks about visitors whoare primarily buyers or prospects.
(19:45):
The C-Suite, the board, they come inas what we affectionately call readers.
They read the website like a book.
And they go off and they read thecompetitor websites like books.
And then they say, "Well, this bookwas a lot more exciting than that book.
Can't you be more like that?"
(20:05):
And it's an absolutely fair question.
Except the bulk of marketing isoperating on a model of, we know
visitors who come in, we know thepaths they take, we know that a typical
website, just looking at, you know,the most recent one I've worked on.
On the website, there were 600 pages?
(20:26):
Of which 500-plus of themwere not in the navigation.
Right?
That's a very typical website.
It's all deep linked pagesthat no reader will ever find.
But it's critical to how younurture leads and prospects and
take them on their journey andget them to where they need to be.
It's all data-driven and all of that.
(20:47):
So this is an example of it's themarketer's job to help educate others
over the fact that, yes, you'rereading the website is important.
And we want to address the factthat you couldn't find XYZ on there
and you saw it on another website.
But we also want you to understandthat that's not our customer's journey.
(21:09):
So we have to create the rightbalance between those two things.
And this is just one of manyexamples of the fact that marketing,
like the trite and proverbialiceberg, is mostly underwater.
You don't see most of it.
You specifically don't see it in today'sdata-driven, highly-targeted model.
You specifically don't see it if you'reanother C executive in a different
(21:33):
department who comes to visit the websiteor signs up for an email newsletter.
You only see bits and pieces of it.
Part of the job of the CMO is toshow the whole fabric of the customer
journey so that they can see, ohwait, I didn't realize marketing
was doing this, this, and this.
Oh, that's interesting.
(21:53):
Okay, thank you for helping mesee and put those pieces together.
It's fascinating.
Yeah, if a company doesn't get that-so you're talking about marketing
educating the CEO and the restof the C-Suite and showing them
really the full value of them.
But if a company doesn't get that,and if they are still stuck on, okay,
this year, this year, and not aboutfuture years, it feels to me like the
(22:15):
CMO has to choose between this deliveron current pipe versus stand up for
transformation, but risk leaving ifthey are standing up for transformation.
Any thoughts on that?
And have you seen that?
I have probably more thoughtsthan we have time at this point.
Let me reframe it a little bit.
(22:35):
Not all companies need a CMO.
They may think they do.
But sometimes companies would benefitmore from simply an incredibly
strong CRO and maybe an incrediblystrong revenue marketing leader.
The CMO is supposed to be thestrategic C-level role that ties
(22:57):
all these pieces together - revenue,demand, brand, partner, right?
Sometimes companies don't need that.
Especially companies that might wantto veer more towards like, hey, we
just need to crank through, fill inthe pipe right now, and not worry
too much about these other things.
(23:17):
Then the question a CMO candidateor a CMO in-seat should be asking
is this actually a necessary rolein this company at this time?
You're aware, as others are,that there are companies that
are eliminating the CMO role.
They're like, oh no, we have a headof brand and comms, we have a head
of demand or revenue or somethinglike that, and that's sufficient.
(23:39):
And in some companiesthat might be sufficient.
So it actually goes back tothe what is the CMO role?
I know from my own experiences thatI want to be in a strategic role.
I want to be guiding the companystrategically from the perspective of how
do we make sure our story is strong anddistinct and it's out there in the market?
(24:02):
How do we make sure that we'regetting the best quality leads
at the volume that we want?
How do we do all of these other pieces?
But if I see that that's not a goodfit for me, I'm like, oh, hold on.
Maybe I should not bethe person that's here.
And this is maybe the bitter pill thatexecutives struggle with sometimes.
(24:23):
I've seen this in places across theboard and I learned long ago that
many executives want to believethat they can solve any problem
that's put in front of them.
Versus believing that some problemsmay require someone different than
them, or a different org structure,or a different something else.
(24:46):
I think the smart CMO in 2024and beyond is able to say,
wait, I can't actually solve theproblems I'm being asked to solve.
What I can recommend isthis, this, and this.
Or, it's yes, I can solve that problem.
Here's what I need to solve that problem.
(25:06):
Give me X number of quarters.
Give me X number of dollars.
Give me X number of people.
Whatever it may be, so that I cansolve that problem and not just try to
solve all the problems simultaneously.
It is a very dynamic situation.
But over time I have found that I realizethat not every company needs a CMO and not
(25:28):
every company needs the same type of CMO.
I'm different than the nextperson, than the next person.
We all bring unique skills to thetable and companies go through
different parts of their evolution.
I was the right CMO for this period ofthe company, but maybe I'm not the right
(25:48):
CMO for this period of the company.
And it's on me, actually, to be ableto say, yeah, that probably makes
more sense, and I'll be happier ifI'm not here and someone else is.
That's just part of the, backto the risk curve, right?
You become, I believe, better at embracingwhere you can have positive impact and
(26:10):
where someone else might be able to havethat positive impact that isn't really
what you want to do, what you're bestat, or something along those lines.
Yeah.
It makes me think, listening to youthat, something I heard once, which
is over the course of your career,your ego tends to go down because
earlier on there could be a lot of ego.
And so you want that role and you wannaprovide all the value that you can in
(26:33):
that role, even if the company is notreally willing to absorb or invest
- Yes.
- you know, for that value.
Over time, yeah, I think you're right.
I think CMOs would save themselvesa lot of angst if they would
say, okay, this isn't quite me.
This isn't me.
And you're right, your ego is down.
I like to think of it as the moreyou fail, the more you gain humility.
(26:56):
And the more humility you have, thebetter able you are to say, Mmm!
Maybe I'm not the best fit here.
And that's true in life as it is in CMO.
We're not all the best fit.
We're not all the best dancer.
We're not all the best singer.
We're not all the best partner.
We don't all fit in everywhere.
You have to realize, if we areactors playing a role, at some
(27:19):
point, we're just not a good
fit for a particular role.
That's a good way to think about it.
A role for somebody else.
Yeah.
So let's look at this from the other side,the standpoint of a CEO hiring a CMO.
I'm curious, what do you think isthe biggest risk a CEO should be
looking to mitigate when hiring a CMO?
Is it anything different thanwhat we've been talking about?
I think it's a lot ofwhat we've talked about.
(27:41):
if I were a CEO in a company hiringa CMO, I would be looking for the CMO
that knows the role that they can play.
And that's, that can come in manydifferent ways and I'll circle
back to something you and I mayhave discussed before, and I'm
sure you get a lot in your role.
(28:01):
We all have roles.
Which is, over the past decade, Ihave gotten dozens, if not hundreds of
phone calls from executive recruiters.
"Hi, Norman.
Hi, it's Erica."
"Hi, Erica."
" Company X is looking for a new CMO."
"Oh, cool."
"And they really want somebodywho can focus on brand."
(28:25):
Or, "Hi, Norman."
Hi."
"Company Y is looking for anew CMO and they really want
someone who can focus on demand."
That's one of the most key things whenyou're a CEO to be thinking about.
If you think you have a brand problem ordemand problem, doesn't matter which side,
(28:46):
if your potential candidate's answer is,yes, I'm great at brand or demand, that's
fifty percent of what you need to know.
The other fifty percent isthem explaining how brand and
demand are actually connected.
(29:06):
the one who says, I'm awesome atbrand or demand, and who can't
speak about the other side, may notactually be the best CMO for you.
Because a brand problem or demand problemin the JD for a new CMO, is usually a,
this is what we need to solve today,not what we need to solve long term.
(29:30):
The smarter, better equipped, moreexperienced CMOs are often able to say,
yes, we see you have a brand problemor demand problem, and let me show
you how these things are connected andhow I am really good at X, Y, and Z.
Second thing that a CEO really has tofocus in on when looking at a CMO is just
(29:53):
understanding how do they think about thethings that they're not really good at?
And that they're willing to,in fact, take off their plate.
A perfect example is product marketing.
Lots of marketing leaders come upthrough product marketing, lots don't.
(30:15):
Those that don't, may not havea real depth of understanding
around product marketing.
Are they willing to say, yeah,that's probably not my strongest
area, but I'd love to have anamazing leader in place there.
Or, I'm okay with that movingto the product organization.
There's any number of variables here,but I think the CEO who's looking
(30:39):
for a unicorn is going to get that,something that actually doesn't exist.
The CEO who's looking for a member oftheir team who's willing to say, I'm
strong in this, I'm weaker in this,I know how these things fit together,
and I'm willing to sign up for that, Ithink is going to get a better leader.
That's great.
Yeah, thank you.
(31:00):
Any thoughts on how a CEO canbest demonstrate their commitment
and support to marketing?
Because a lot of times, CEOs willsay, Oh, yes you can help define
what the role is, you can helpdefine what the budget should be.
And it can seem from the outside,like, Oh, yes, this company is
really going to support marketing.
(31:20):
But are there any clues that thatCMO candidate can look for to see
if that support is really there?
And conversely, what can CEOsdo to demonstrate that support?
Yeah, that's tricky.
I think really that's one wherethe proof is in the doing.
Having worked for a number of CEOs,all of who bring very different skill
(31:45):
sets to the table, I don't know thatI've ever known a priori exactly how
they're going to play out in termsof how they want to interact with
marketing, how they support marketing.
Because I've worked with CEOs, I've workedfor CEOs who I was told in advance, Oh,
that person wants to have their fingersover all over everything in marketing.
(32:05):
And that's what they've always done.
And then I got to work for that person andI said, hey, that's our job, not your job.
And they're like, oh, okay, boom.
So you realize then was that becauseno one ever said that to them?
Because they never had a personwho felt comfortable saying that?
And it is unique for each situation.
The dynamics are different.
(32:27):
What I think you have to do asa CMO going into a new role is
be as informed as you can be.
Then realize that on the day youstart, you pretty much know nothing.
Then you start learningwhat's actually happening.
You make decisions along the way.
(32:48):
That's just the reality of it.
You and I have been involved, myself, indozens of interviews and things like that.
You in hundreds and hundredsof candidates and interviews.
Frankly, it doesn't teach you a lotabout what's going to happen on day one.
(33:09):
If you say yes, you just going on the,okay, this is not going to be horrible.
If they told you in advance, oh yeah,it's standard practice here that at 9 a.
m.
we yell at everybody, and then at 6 p.
m.
if they're not at their desk,we dock them a day's pay.
Okay, probably not a placeyou want to work, right?
(33:29):
But for the most part, youwalk in thinking, okay, I see
there's some good, some bad.
It's a culture that does this or that.
But you know nothing on day one.
You begin a new journey thenthat you start to learn.
Then it's on you as the executive toeither say, I'm willing to accept, willing
to try to make change, or I want to leave.
(33:54):
Yeah.
That's
true.
Right?
It's all you can do.
And then, show up on day one andtake the little notebook that you
wrote all those notes down duringthe interviews that, oh, this...
toss it aside and start a new notebook.
Because then you're really in it.
I like that.
I like that notebook idea.
That's a great tip.
As you said, sometimes,these things don't work out.
One theme that has come up in thispodcast series so far this season
(34:18):
has been about career trauma.
That might sound like a little bitstrong, but you know, it's funny, if
you look on LinkedIn, if your feedis anywhere similar to mine, which I
imagine there's some overlap, right?
You find these very
-Yep.
- raw disclosures about careerchallenges and short tenures and
people being on the bench for alittle bit longer than they expected.
So, I guess I've been thinking a lot abouthow transparent somebody should be about
(34:41):
their trauma and what is the risk rewardcalculation for sharing such trauma?
And maybe this is like small t trauma.
When is disclosing it intentional?
When is that impulsive?
Can it build trust?
Can it burden trust?
Any thoughts on this?
I have a lot of thoughts on thisbecause I, like you, probably
spend a lot of time on LinkedIn.
(35:03):
I spend a lot of timereading those things.
I spend a lot of time writing.
I think it's a great platform.
I think there's a fewthings that come to mind.
I have the utmost respect for everyonechoosing to present themselves the
way they want to present themselves.
What I find, perhaps, a littlefrustrating sometimes is what I
(35:23):
think of as performative trauma.
Where it's clearly just a way to say, oh,this was horrible, but I'm a great person.
I need a new job.
And that happens.
It's a choice.
Probably not the choice that I would make.
I think that I have mostly opted for astrategy of being actually exceptionally
(35:50):
thoughtful about what I post.
It's not that I don't want topost a, oh, this happened, or that
happened, or I'm supportive ofthis, or I'm supportive of that.
But I want to be thoughtful about thefact that it serves multiple audiences.
When you're trauma posting, you'renot just speaking about yourself,
(36:13):
you're speaking about the company.
You're not just speaking to your peers,you're speaking to a vast audience
of potential people who you may workfor, with, or who may work for you.
You're not simply just havinga moment, if you and I were
sitting over coffee, to vent.
Oh, this place treated mehorribly, blah, blah, blah.
(36:37):
You're actually putting something outthere that has impact on many more
people and companies than you may think.
You may choose to do that as well,and again, it's a personal choice.
I think that the better choice isto figure out first, what are you
(36:57):
trying to achieve with a post?
If you're clear in that, work backwards.
Oh, does this trauma posting getme what I'm trying to achieve?
Or not?
And if not, then maybe it's bestserved in a different environment.
(37:20):
Most of us at the C-level belongto multiple organizations of
peers, peer huddles, groups.
Those are great places to havethose types of discussions.
I've been very fortunate that Ibelong to multiple CMO groups,
gotten tremendous value out ofhaving those honest discussions.
But they're not actually thingsI would post on LinkedIn, because
(37:45):
at the end of the day, especiallyas a C-level executive, you're
not just someone who's like, Ah!
XYZ happened, I feel horrible.
You're one of the peoplewho's running the company.
So you have to take someaccountability for that too.
And so it's really complex.
And I think that we've turnedLinkedIn into whatever it is.
(38:11):
Just like on X or Instagram or anythingelse, it requires a certain degree of
thought about what is your intent andare you actually achieving that intent?
Who will end up seeing this?
And is that someone who you wouldwant to have this discussion with?
(38:32):
I like that.
Somebody once said to me, before yousay something or post something, use
the acronym WAIT - Why Am I Talking?
[They laugh] And it's true.
Right.
It's like, yeah, thinking through it.
Why?
Why?
What is the why?
Yes.
And everyone has their own perceptions.
Everyone, for the most part, findsthat often times their perception is
(38:56):
valid and true and should be respected.
But time and context can alsochange how that perception may be
Right.
And so it's, it is very complex.
I think that we're in a world nowwhere the ability of self expression
is tremendous and the opportunityfor self expression is important.
(39:18):
As a fierce advocate of freespeech, I think voices should
have the opportunity to speak.
But also, as a fierce advocateof being thoughtful in the impact
your words have on others, I thinkthat you have to balance the two.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
That's helpful.
I know we're running out of time, soI have one final question for you, and
(39:40):
that is do you have a favorite interviewquestion that you like to ask people
who are interviewing for your team?
I have become the world's mostboring interviewer over time.
And let me give that context, right?
I've now made a grandiose statement.
Why am I talking?
I made a grandiose statement.
(40:02):
Many, many years ago, earlier inmy career, I spent an inordinate
amount, I should say, I wasted aninordinate amount of time thinking
up clever interview questions.
Why?
Well, if you go even further back in mycareer, when I was in graduate school,
I like wrote my whole master's thesison the job interview, and what happens,
(40:22):
and all sorts of interesting things.
And most decisions in a job intervieware made in the first thirty seconds.
You actually - has nothing to dowith the questions that are asked.
People make decisions like that.
So, earlier in my career, when Iwas young and dumb, as opposed to
now, when I'm older and dumber,I came up with clever questions.
It was mostly about me, not about them.
Over time, I realized that that was nota particularly useful thing to be doing.
(40:45):
And so I started to whittle down,whittle down, whittle down, whittle down.
Now I'm at the point where Ibasically ask the same three
questions to facilitate conversation.
Those questions tend to be of the formare, me what you're interested in doing.
And I make that very broad.
(41:06):
Tell me what you hope to learn.
And tell me the type of environmentyou want to do those things in.
And I use that as thebasis for conversation.
Because I've come to the belief thatan interview really is a conversation.
And the more detailed the questions I ask,the less interesting the conversation.
(41:29):
I like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Do you ever ask them thinkabout that ahead of time?
So it's more articulate?
I'm just thinking myself, likeI would be way more articulate
if I had noodled on that.
Yeah, I don't actually.
I don't because I'm also, I willadmit that I'm also looking for
how do they think in real time?
Yes!
And one of the skills I look for inmarketers is being a good communicator.
(41:52):
Regardless of the type of marketingthey're doing, I think that
being a strong communicator is askill I like to see in marketers.
Right.
So I want to see how they react andhow they communicate in that context.
Now anybody who ever listens to thiswill know the questions I'm going
to ask and they'll be prepared.
They're not trick questions.
They're truly, I'm interested inlearning something about you that
(42:14):
I can't get from your resume.
And hopefully that you'regoing to share with me.
When people tell me about the typeof environment that they want to be
in, it can mean many, many things.
What I hear more often than not, arenot in fact the type of environment
they want to be in, but the type ofenvironment they don't want to be in.
Yeah.
(42:35):
Right?
So you think about those questionsas door openers that can get
you to interesting places.
Yeah, that's great.
And, of course, when you do thishundreds of times, you can tell the
difference between somebody who canstructure their answer very well
-versus, you know, versus not, and somebody who has a broad level
of thinking versus not, you canget the sense of their altitude.
(42:58):
I like to say altitude.
You know, how strategicversus tactical are they?
No judgment, but wheredo they land on that?
Right,
Thank you for sharing allof this great insight.
It's great to hear from somebodywho's done multiple CMO roles, a CEO
role, and has all this perspective.
So really appreciate you sharingall of this with us, Norman.
My pleasure, Erica.
That was Norman Guadagno.
(43:19):
Next time on The Get, you'll hearmore from me and from another guest.
Don't miss it.
Thanks for listening to The Get.
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
The Get is here to drive smartdecisions around recruiting and
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
We explore the trends, tribulations,and triumphs of today's top
marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
(43:40):
If you liked thisepisode, please share it.
For more about The Get,visit TheGetPodcast.Com.
To learn more about my executive searchpractice, which focuses on recruiting the
make-money marketing leaders rather thanthe make-it-pretty ones, follow me on
LinkedIn or visit TheConnectiveGood.Com.
The Get is produced by Evo Terraof Simpler Media Productions.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.