#315: Paris Vaughan-Lenoir Rhyne University

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
You're listening to the Gil Athletics Connections podcast
with host Mike Cunningham. Track and field world UNL tuned
in to our humble servant Mike Cunningham for another
extraordinary message for Gil. Athletics connections here.
We go go back on the Guild athletics connection podcast.

(00:23):
So cool just to get a kick everytime that you guys and gals
press play every single week. And really now every single day,
as we've added from Tuesday through Sunday, the Guild 1918
project, 10 minute to 30 minute episodes talking about kind of
the Ted talks of track and fieldpodcast, right?
So XS and OS culture, recruiting, we've had a bunch of
great topics and a bunch of great people contributing to

(00:46):
that and I'm really, really grateful for that.
And today it's Monday, so it is our long form man.
It's the the OG, the Gil connections podcast that started
it all. And I'm pumped for this one man,
This guy, he has been begging, knocking.
I mean, it's it's a little embarrassing actually, but I'm
glad he's here. And of course, I'm I'm kidding
on all fronts there. Help me welcome the head coach,

(01:07):
the interim head coach, because we're going to talk about that
from Lenore Ryan, the wise, the wonderful Mr. Paris von Paris.
How are you, Sir? I'm doing good.
How about yourself? Oh man, you know, every time
someone asked me that question, the first thing I tell was like,
I do this for a living. So I'm doing pretty good, my
friend, pretty good. There's not a bad day in old
Mike Cunningham's life, let me tell you that.

(01:27):
OK? I always have like initial like
2-3 questions before we actuallyhop into your actual journey,
which I'm super excited to learn.
My first question is, OK, LenoreRyan, I always like to know
people's mascots. And I should know because I tell
you what, I have been blessed togo to the D2 national
championship meets for the last couple years and I have seen

(01:47):
plenty of Lenoir Ryan kids and plenty of Lenoir Ryan kids
winning. So I should know the mascot, but
I don't. And I can't even, I don't know.
I'm going to guess like something pretty common in the
sense of like a Wildcat or something.
What, what, what is? I'm?
I'm not close as a Wildcat, I don't think.
No, you're not close at all. I mean, I guess you somewhat,
but not a cat. So we're the bears, so.

(02:08):
I was going to go with some kindof like Falcon, like, you know,
fast because I was just thinkingthat your kids are always fast.
I was like some kind of like, you know, hunting Falcon or
something. The bears.
You are in North Carolina, right?
Yep. Yeah, so there are bears in
North Carolina, so that tracks. Oh yeah, yeah.
It always cracks me up when someone has a mascot and it's
like there's no bears in, you know, wherever they are, like
Florida. Like, what are you?

(02:29):
There's probably bears in Florida.
I don't know. OK, my next question I just
immediately have to have an answer to your name is Paris
Vaughn. I love that because I love
unique name. There are enough Mikes, Dave's
and Steves in the world, right? Where does like, how did you get
named Paris? Man I love this.
Well, I always ask my mom that question and she she always

(02:49):
laughs and doesn't want to answer the question, you know?
So it's it's like, I think like,did you think I was a girl at
first? But I'm not the child that she
thought was a girl. My older brother is the child
that she thought was a girl. But I think she just wanted to
go to Paris. Like that was her dream Logan,
the place that she wanted to go.And she's never been.
So I mean, my dad wasn't able toname me.
So she took that and said, and my dad wanted to name me

(03:13):
something totally different. But yeah, she just said, hey,
I'm going to name him Paris. And he was like, OK.
Cool. Maybe maybe she, you know, she
wants to tell the story that youwere conceived in Paris, France,
but actually you were conceived in like Paris, TX.
Or, you know, there's a Paris, IL and it's just not, you know,
it's all spelled the same, but I'm not sure Paris, IL and

(03:34):
Paris, France all kind of try tostay in there.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I love it, man. Like I said, I love.
We, we just had one of our team mates here who overseas our
volleyball literally Friday night you just had a little baby
girl named Etta Faith. Etta Faith.
And I was like, I was like, I love that.
Like, that's so cool, man. That's, you know, my wife's name
is Amy. I love you Amy.

(03:54):
But you know, there's like a million Amy's, right?
But something tells me there's only going to be 1 Etta in
school when she's growing up. I bet you you had to be the only
Paris. Funny enough, when I was in high
school, there was there's five of us.
Shut up. No way.
There's four of us, so and and we're, we're still close to
today. So funny enough.

(04:14):
In high school, there were threeother dudes named Paris.
There were two other dudes namedParis, and there was a girl
named Paris and there was somebody whose locker was right
behind mine and her name was Karis with AKI.
Like I'm trying to think, I don't think I've ever met I'm,
you know, nearly 48 something, right?
I don't think I've ever met a Paris before.

(04:35):
And you had three in your high school.
Did you go to like some mega high school or like 4000 people
in your graduating class or something?
Yeah, I think we were close to 1000, but.
Weren't. Yeah, it was a big, it was a big
school. But yeah, it wasn't, it was
weird. You know, whenever I found out,
you know, everybody else, you know, the other people whose
name Paris. I mean, there was me, there was

(04:56):
a guy that played basketball. There's a guy that he's in the
fashion. And the girl, she was a
cheerleader. I ran track and played football.
And then Karis, the one whose locker was behind mine, she
cheered. So it was very weird.
But we always said our sport andour name.
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. Track pair.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's mixed.
Yeah, You have to, Yeah. I, I can't, you know, when when

(05:18):
I meet another Mike, there's like some kind of weird instant,
you know, connection. And, you know, I meet a lot of
mics, obviously, right. I can't imagine 2 Paris's Paris
I Paris's meeting and then a third one.
And then, I mean, that's in highschool.
Not like, oh, my whole life I'vemet three other people, you
know, in high school. That's cool, man.
I love that. I didn't even I didn't even
mention in college my RA. His name is Paris.

(05:40):
What now you got me thinking like, do I actually know other
Paris's? And I just, I'm not thinking
right. I, I honestly, I don't like the
only other Paris I can even think of like to name would be
like Paris Hilton, right? That that's the only, I cannot
think of a single like was there.
I'm trying to think like there had to be like a famous, you
know, NBA or football player andI can't, I can't think of
anybody. Yeah, that's crazy, dude.

(06:04):
I'll probably meet another mic before I, you know, go home here
in a couple of so common. So every Thanks.
Thanks, mom. You can name me something cool,
man, like Etta. That's cool.
That's cool. All right, man.
Well, we kind of started gettinginto it there a little bit.
Let's go ahead and officially get into it.
Let's hear your journey. You know Paris assuming well,
not assuming you already told usthe spoiler alert, you were a
track athlete. So my first question is kind of

(06:26):
the same for everybody. Where does track and field start
for you? Where?
Where does that begin? So, I mean, all my life, my SO,
my dad was the track guy. You know, he went to Miami,
Ohio. I am not going to try to save
what year he graduated, but I know it was a while ago.
It was a long, long time ago, but he went to Miami, Ohio, He's

(06:47):
from Virginia. He never talked to any of us,
like my siblings about track. That was never something he
brought up. It was always football,
basketball, and that was really it.
You know, we didn't talk about baseball, we didn't talk about
soccer. It's just really what you kind
of grew up into. And football and basketball was
what we did. I want to say it was middle
school that I got into track. My little sister was doing it.

(07:13):
And, you know, somebody mentionslike, oh, yeah, you're fast, you
should run track. I was like, I don't even know
what that is. I'm not.
You were not going to see me just run for fun, you know, And
I was, I was playing basketball at the time.
So that was the big thing. And then my older brother was
running in high school. So I was like, I'm not going to
let them just like one up me. And do you know, he played
football, basketball and run track, you know, and I'm just

(07:36):
playing football and basketball,you know, I'm going to get out
there and do it too. So I got out, I think I was in
7th grade, 7th, 8th grade, one or two.
I forgive exactly which one. But you know, while I'm out
there, I wanted to be a sprinter.
My coaches did not put me into sprints.

(07:57):
They actually, and I, and I willforever say this is distance.
And even though it's really, youknow, mid distance and somewhat
of a long Sprint, I ran the 8 and the 15.
You know, those are the events that I was put into.
You know, I ran for a track clubcalled New Wave Track Club in,
in Maryland. And when I got out there, you

(08:18):
know, I'm just thinking, oh, maybe a sprinter, I'm gonna be a
sprinter. And then they just had me
running, just running, just running long times.
I'm like why am I doing this? But you stuck with it because
it's one thing like you go out and say, hey, I'm going to
Sprint 'cause I don't want to run long distance.
So yeah, yeah, you're going to run at least 2 laps and you're
going to run 4 laps. You could have quit.
I mean, you were playing other sports.
What, what made you kind of still stick with it?
So I just, I mean, ever since I've been in sports, like my, my

(08:41):
sister's father, so I just called him my uncle, you know,
he always told us like the boys like, hey, we're not going to
quit any sports or anything. Like you start something, finish
it. So I was like, all right, cool.
If I'm starting, I'm gonna finish it.
My dad didn't care. He was like, if you don't want
to do it no more, you ain't got to.
And, and he was the track guy and.
He was the track guy. Interesting.
OK. So the thing that my dad was the

(09:01):
track guy, nobody else in my family, I mean, outside of my
little sister, my older brother,you know, we're into track.
But my dad was like, if you don't want to do it, you don't
have to. So I'm I'm doing this thing and
I'm like, I'm tired of this, youknow, you know, just like from
whole was like, I'm tired of this Grandpa.
Yeah, I was, I was saying that Iwas like, oh, I'm tired of this.
I don't want to do this all the time.

(09:23):
And then it just, you know, I just kind of grew into it.
I think my very first year I actually qualified for USATF
Nationals in the Brass Omaha, NEin the 1500.
I don't know how, I don't know why, but it was I qualified for
the 1500 and then I kind of started to like it a little bit

(09:45):
more. I met a lot of people, you know,
and I was like, Oh no, cool. But you know, I'm my
personality, you know, growing up and I mean, I guess kind of
still today, I'm a extroverted introvert.
So like I can talk to people, but I'm OK with being by myself.
And that was how I was on track,you know, within track.

(10:05):
I met a lot of people and I was like, all right, I can talk to
y'all, but at the end of the day, I don't have to see you
ever again and I'm OK with it. You know, that's interesting.
We actually have, you know, after 300 episodes, I, I, I
still don't think we brought up every topic, but I do remember
we have talked about this before.
This was kind of a revelation for me.
So my wife would very similar towhat you just expressed there.
She would call me the most extroverted in introvert she's

(10:27):
ever met. The same thing like, you know,
and you've seen me like at convention and me, it's like,
you know, I'm, I'm I'm all aboutthe people, right, But I very
much can just be in my house andnot see anybody for the weekend.
I'm good with that, right? And, and I was reading a book
and I really wish I could remember what book it was
because it always, I kind of struggle with that a little bit
because it was like, Oh, I'm, you know, I am extroverted.

(10:47):
So why am I not always extroverted?
You know, what, like it almost was like, like introversion was
a a shame. Like I can't be, I can't be
introverted. I'm, I'm the, I'm the podcast
guy, I'm the social media guy, you know, and so I was reading
this book and it brought up a term new to me.
I'm sure it's been around forever called ambivert ambi
vert. And what it is is that, and this

(11:08):
was kind of, I don't want to saylife changing, but you know,
startling that many things in life, including this, are not
light switches which are on or off like, oh, you're
extroverted, Oh, you're introverted.
You know, you know, it's actually kind of like that
slider light, right? And so a lot of people, most
people are not extreme extroverts or extreme
introverts. They're somewhere on that scale.

(11:30):
And so, you know, you think about like 50%, you'd be 50%
extroverted, 50% introverted. So it just really kind of shaped
my thinking about things like like, oh, OK, like, yeah, I see
why it like there are times where absolutely I'm the, I'm
the work in the crowd guy. And then there are the times
where I'm like, man, I'm, it's 9:00 y'all have fun with the
rest of the social. I'm going back to the hotel
room. I'll see y'all tomorrow at the
track meet or something. You know, so it really, so it

(11:52):
was interesting that you could kind of see that in yourself at
an early age. I, I, I couldn't, I didn't learn
that until like probably 8 yearsago, you know, I was 40 years
old. So that's interesting.
You kind of had that self-awareness that that early.
Yeah, it and it's just somethinglike, I mean, I guess because I
have AI don't know, I whenever Italk to my dad about it, because
my dad's similar, you know, he can talk to whoever, but he's

(12:16):
also not a he can sit by himself.
Like I used to see it all the time growing up.
He would, if he's in the house, he's in the house, he's
chilling, you know, and I'd be like, you ain't going with your
friends. He's like, see him later, you
know, and that, and that was just him and I, I mean, I've
grown up to be the same exact way.
But yeah, you know, just running.

(12:36):
I mean, after making that national news, you know, I
looked at and I was like, this is this is this is cool.
You know, so that actually was 7th grade.
So 8th grade year. I was doing it again, doing it
some more. But I also at the same time, I
was like, I don't really, I don't, I'm going to do something
less. I don't want to keep doing this
800 and 1500, you know, And thenmy coach just looked at me and

(12:58):
was like, well, you can try something else.
There's two things that you can try.
And the two things that they told me was 1 was steeplechase
and the other was hurdles. So me looking at steeplechase, I
was like, that looks fun. And then they told me how long
it was and I said, ah, gotcha. You you almost got me.
So I'm going to do the shorter thing.

(13:19):
So so. They were talking about club
summer. Yeah, Summit.
Track, I only know one state that has steeple for high school
and that's New York. And you didn't grow up in New
York, so. Yeah.
OK, OK, OK. So yeah, this.
Is all summit track? So you're still doing so 8th
grade as we start going into high school, you're still doing
football, basketball and track and summer track.

(13:40):
Yeah, so, well, my, my high, my middle school didn't have a
track team, you know, So in Maryland, the thing about
Maryland, they don't have high school, I mean, not high school,
they don't have middle school football and middle school
track. We have baseball, soccer,
softball, basketball. I think that's it.

(14:01):
But that's also in the public too.
So so yeah, all summer track. I'm, you know, doing that and
then, you know, turn around and it's like I would choose the
choose the hurdles. So 200 hurdles is actually what
I did. Now I love the 200 hurdles.
You know, I didn't do the short hurdles.
I didn't do the high hurdles. I guess you could say didn't do
those personally, I'll just sellit.

(14:22):
My foot speed's not there. I could run fast, but that's
take me a little bit to pick it up.
So it was the 200 hurdles. I was doing that consistently.
And then, you know, get to high school and, you know, my brother
had just graduated probably 2A year before I got there, or two
years before I got there. And his high school coach

(14:44):
actually had watched me as I wasrunning summer track, you know,
for the years he was watching mewhile I was running.
And he was like, you know, I'm going to try you in some
different things. So he put me in 400.
I went to 300 hurdles, did the 110 hurdles.
And then I think also that year I might have jumped into doing

(15:05):
like looking at doing just otherthings.
And I, I ended up doing a multi going that summer.
So during the high school season, my, my freshman year, I
did a bunch of events and I was just a freshman.
You know, I was, I was probably 130 lbs going into high school.
I was probably 5, seven, 130 lbsand I still, I was still in a

(15:28):
football team, but I was five, 730 lbs.
So I played receiver and I played safety and I was like,
you know, I'm going to stick with football because that was
what I loved. And track was just kind of what
I did. So I was doing both.
And then something with my, my, you know, my track coach.

(15:49):
He was like, you know, and he was a football coach too.
So he he coached our, you know, I think it was the defensive
coordinator for varsity. He's like, you know, Paris, you,
you get in the weight room this summer, you'll, you know, you'll
be all right. You might shape out to be
something, you know, something special.
And I was like, what do you mean?
Like, are you talking about me like in a bad way?
And he was like, no, like, this is a positive thing.
Like just get in the weight rooma little bit.

(16:09):
You know, it's going to help forboth football and, you know, and
track. And I was like, well, I don't
know how much I'm going to get in the weight room because as
soon as the school year's over, I'm back in the track.
And he was like, that's fine, you know, So I'm going to track
summer track. I had changed the track club
that I ran for, so I ran with this one club.

(16:32):
Like I said, that was a new wave.
And the I don't know what she was to the club, but she had
left Coach Gwynn. Yeah, I never forget Coach Gwynn
because she's the one that kind of got me going.
She started a new club and she wanted my dad to help her start
it. So, I mean, you know, a lot of
people would say, like, hell my parents coaching me.

(16:53):
I don't, I don't know how to handle it.
My dad was the one that said, I am not going to coach you.
I'm going to coach the kids. I'm just going to be your
parent. I'm going to be your dad.
I'm not going to try to coach you, You know, so that summer he
is like, you want to do the, youknow, you want to do this
combined event stuff, then let'sdo it.
So I was doing the pentathlon, you know, and pentathlon was

(17:15):
going well for me. You know, I made nationals a
couple years with that and I was, I was loving it because I
was like, this is something nice.
It's different. And it's nice because I get to
do a lot, doing a lot of things.And, and I don't have ADHD or
anything, at least I haven't been diagnosed with it.
But I just, I'm somebody that always has to do a lot of

(17:35):
different things. You know, I'd rather do a lot
than do a little and then sit there thinking and bored the
rest of the day. So me doing the pentathlon, I
was, I was excited about it. You know, I get to run back and
forth, do different things. And also I just learned other
events too. So I think going into my
sophomore year, I might have learned pole vault.

(17:57):
So yeah, I had to learn pole vault then because I was pole
vaulting for the rest of my highschool, you know, career and
it's just a way to get points. So yeah, I, you know, after
that, you know, going pole vaulting and everything.
So I kind of just did everything.
Me doing multi, I was like, OK, I'm going to do this.
You know, high school, we didn'thave it as an event.

(18:19):
So my coach do all right. I'm going to put you in pole
vault. I'll put you in one cent
herders. I'll put you in 300 herders.
I'll put you in a four by four. OK, you only.
Got 4 events, did you? I, I like how you talked about
the multi, the combined events about like you get to do a lot
of different things and I, I think a lot of kids would be
more attracted to that. They're just not given the
opportunity to even know that it's an event, right.

(18:39):
I mean, to your point, they're used to just doing 4 events.
They don't know that like, hey, you know, there's actually
events where you can do one moreand it's all one event, you
know? Yeah, yeah, but did you like
you? You had to be unique in your
high school setting, like when you went to other meets, like
you had to be the only dude, like going from the pole vault
to the hurdles to the like, you know, not many people are doing

(19:00):
that in high school. Like, you know, maybe the guys
doing the hurdles in the 4 by 1 and 4 by 4, you know, but no
one's throwing a, a long or a, apole vault in there or anything
like that. Yeah.
And that was the, that was the funniest part about it is, you
know, in PG County, Maryland, itis a, I would say at one point
of time, you know, when I was inhigh school, it was the, the

(19:22):
richest black county in America.So with that being said, there
was nobody doing pole vault, youknow, because everybody,
everybody was African American. So there's nobody doing pole
vault. And it was just myself and
actually my coach's cousin, his little cousin did pole vault.
So he was somebody that did polevault because that was all he
did, pole vaulter through and through.
He went to Howard pole vaulted for Howard.

(19:43):
Me, I did pole vault because hey, I'll do the I do the
multitas in the summer. So it would just be me and him
pole vaulting and then we get toregionals.
It's me and him. Then we go to states.
Now it's like, hey, I'm here. I got here somehow, someway.
If I could place, I place. If I don't, I don't.
It is, but it is. You know, I've never practiced

(20:04):
it. It was one of those events that
my coach knew nothing about it. He he didn't, he couldn't coach
me up in it. But we did have another coach at
the school. That tried to help that tried to
help me out a little bit becausewe did have another guy that
transferred to our high school from another county.
He was a pole vaulter, but he did the pole vault in the

(20:25):
hurdles. So you had two guys on the team
that. Did pole water hurdles?
And then they kind of took him away from hurdles just because
there's like, we'll just stick you to pole vault because that's
the that's your better event. You know, it's like Paris got
better than you in the hurdles. So we're going to let him stay
doing that. And you know, our our pole vault

(20:45):
coach, I would air quote a little bit because he was a
volleyball coach, you know, and he just came out.
He knew about track. You know, he came out and helped
us out coach a coach, coach Alexander, and he just kind of
got us through it. You know, we probably practice
well, I practice once a week, a teammate practice probably two
or three times because that's all he did.

(21:07):
But it was just it was tough doing it because, you know, my
coach, the the head coach, coachCarter, coach Fardon Carter,
what he wanted us to do was, hey, we want to focus on
running. You know, and funny enough that
that's what he does, that's whathe did for me is hey, I want to
focus on running. Every one of my pole vaulters,
I'll tell them, hey, we're goingto focus on running.

(21:27):
We're going to focus on, you know, but going through that, it
was the, it was amazing because I, again, I was able to see
everything. I was able to do a bunch of
different things and just reallyenjoy it.
So did you play football, basketball on track all through
high school? Or did.
No. Basketball.
Basketball, kind of it died. Away.

(21:50):
That died away because I did notget any taller.
So my my brother, he's a bachelor player.
He's I think he's probably a 2 inches taller than me.
Maybe I'm 510 3/4 right now. He's probably, he's not even
that much taller. I mean, he's he's 511.
Yeah, he's 511. But he was more skilled at

(22:11):
basketball, you know, So he was the one that focused on
basketball only and did footballand did track.
He focused on basketball. So you were football on the
track, guy? Yeah.
Did you? I always ask this of every dual
athlete that we have on the podcast.
Would you, as you're looking into your senior year, would you
have considered yourself a trackguy who plays football or a

(22:33):
football guy who runs track? My senior year, I consider
myself a track guy at football. But before that, maybe that.
Before that it would stop. Yeah, yeah.
Before that was a total opposite.
So what happened senior year where there was at the beginning
or at the end, what what happened?
Because because that's really important.
That's identity, right? That's who, you know, when you
introduce yourself in high school, he's like, Oh yeah, I

(22:55):
play football. Oh yeah, I do track too.
That's the football guy who runstrack or, or, you know, your
senior year, you probably like, Oh yeah, I run track and yeah, I
play football. Like that's the track guy who
plays football. What happened senior year that
turned your identity there? So it was actually junior year.
So I started getting interest letters and I'd say nothing was
for football, but nothing was for football.

(23:17):
Crazy enough. In high school, I was my, I was
the backup safety to Marcus Allen.
He went to Penn State, OK. He played for the Steelers.
So dude, I mean, for me being his backup, I was OK.
You know, I was like, hey, you know, me and Marcus came in the
same year. You know, he got bigger.
Yeah, I'm stronger. I kind of stayed the same.

(23:39):
Someone had to be his back up. I mean, he got to be an NFL or
to beat him. So I mean, come on.
Yeah, Yeah. So.
You know, I was like, hey, it iswhat it is.
And I, I, I rarely focused on the offensive side of the ball,
even though I like playing receiver.
I just didn't focus on it that much, you know, leading up to
my, you know, my senior year, I wasn't focusing on it, but.
There's a term and you've heard this term before, and it's a

(24:00):
it's a business consumer term that the market is all the
customer is always right. And and what it what, what what
it's been perverted to is that, you know, if you Paris going to
be and say, hey, Mikey, you should have sold me that pole
vault pit for a cent because I'mI'm the customer and I'm always
right. That's what it's been perverted
to. What it actually is, is that the
market is always, always right. And what that means is like if
you sell a product and no one's buying it, the market's telling

(24:23):
you that it's not. So the market that was right.
They were like, yeah, Paris, youplay football.
No one's buying it though. Track.
Track coaches are like, OK, I can buy it, You know what I'm
saying? The the, the market showed you
your path, if you will. Yeah.
Yeah. How'd that feel getting, you
know, interest in letters and recruitment on the track side?
It felt, it actually felt great.I mean, I, I was, I was just

(24:47):
sitting there because I like to be honest with you, I was the
guy that I didn't really care too much about school.
You know, I, I, I try to tell people this all the time.
I mean, I tell my recruits, theywant me to be honest.
I'm like, I'm be honest with you, you know?
But I tell my athletes not whenever they graduate.
I'm like, like, we just had graduation Friday and I told him
I was like, I'm proud of you forgraduating because a lot of I

(25:09):
probably had the same mindset I did coming out of high school.
I just don't want to go to college.
It's more for, for the guys, youknow, not much of the girls, but
for the guys, they probably saying the same thing.
But that was really what it was.I, you know, I, I didn't care
too much about school, but then when I started getting those
letters, I was like, oh, wait a second.
Did you have family that went tocollege?
Yeah, So my dad is the one that I'm the first child.

(25:33):
I'm the first child to graduate from college.
So my older sister, she went, she went to Community College.
I don't know if she got her associates.
My older brother went to college.
He did not get his associates. And then my younger siblings, my
little sister went, but she saidschool is not for my little
brothers. I know school is not for me.
So there's not, it's not like none of my family went to

(25:55):
college and I was the first one who would go on.
There's some like, okay, we at least try call, yeah, workout.
It doesn't work out for everybody.
Nothing works out for everybody,but it's like, oh, yeah, yeah,
yeah. My dad went and got, went to
college, my brother and sister, like, so there's some yeah.
Like, so when you're getting these letters, it's not like
like you're not getting them andgoing, yeah, whatever.
Dude. We don't, I don't go.
What are you talking about? You know, we go to, I'm trying

(26:17):
to think how much of the steel mill, but I don't think there's
steel mills in Maryland. But you know, like we go, we go
work. That's what we do with our
family, you know. So there is a little bit like,
oh, OK, cool. Like maybe these are the
colleges I go try out. Yeah, so like my dad, he's he
was, he was looking at everything I was getting.
He was like, hey, man, this is nice, you know, so he's nudging
me like you wanted to keep my school down.
And, you know, I was like, I waslike, I guess I could start

(26:42):
looking. So I start looking at the
schools. And then I told him I, you know,
I told my dad this and I had to tell him first before I told my
mom because, you know, moms, youknow, they always, mom's always
right. I'll just put it that way.
I'll just put it that that is true.
Always right. So my dad, he was like, man, I
don't even want to be in I don'twant to be in Maryland.
You know, I was like, I I I don't I just don't want to be

(27:03):
here. Like I don't want to be in in
the state. I was like, what you mean?
I was like I said, I'm here likeall my life.
But because of track, I've been able to travel and I like being
every other places. Oh.
Good. Point so so he was like.
And all these other national yeah, I love that he's.
He's talking to me. He's like, so like, what do you
want to, where do you want to go?
I said I don't know. And then that's when he

(27:24):
mentioned to me, oh, you know, Iwent to, you know, Miami, Ohio,
you know, so he mentioned it to me.
I was like, huh, what is that? So I looked up.
I looked up to Miami and I, you know, EU popped up and I was
like, you didn't go here. He was like, no, no, no.
I went to Miami University of Ohio.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Like what's that I said? Is that like a that like a small

(27:45):
school? And he was like, no, it's a,
it's a big school. It's and then he looked it up
for me and then showed me and I was like, oh, then this is where
he started to gloat a little bit.
But he tried to be very humble. But gloat.
He was like, yeah, man, I was, Iwas pretty decent up there.
So what do you mean? Like, I think I'm, I think I'm
still in the record books in the400 hurdles.

(28:07):
And I was like. Oh, wait a minute, so.
You're not fast. He was like, you know, look it
up. So I'm looking, I can't find
anything. And he actually went to work
because my dad's, my dad was a cop, you know, he's ADC police
officer. He went to work and he printed
out a, he printed out the records and then he brought it

(28:28):
to me one day, just handed it tome and walked away, closed his
door and locked it. You know, he didn't, he didn't
want to say anything else. He just gave it to me and walked
away. So I'm looking, I'm like, what?
When the world's this, I'm looking.
I see the 100. I see the 200, you know, I go
all the way down and see the hurdles.
I see the 110 hurdles. I'm like, I don't see a name on
here. And I see the four and a half.
I was like, oh, you were fast. So I I think he ran 5151.

(28:52):
Dude. I don't know.
I forget what year it was, but he's number two all time and he
is still to this day, number twoall time in Miami.
Ohio Holy cow on. A hurdle history.
Yeah, hey, 5151 is nothing to sneeze that, you know that.
Yeah, there's a coach like I'll take a 51 second.
So it's interesting, you know, you're telling a story and I'm
kind of visualizing it and you know, I just kind of think about

(29:14):
like, like one of the things I try to do and I do, I feel like
I do a very, a pretty good job is putting myself in other
people's shoes. And I'm thinking it's like,
yeah, you know, how do we talk to our children?
I have a 8th grade, you know, it's almost going to be in high
school next year. How do we Like, there's some
things I do sometimes, like justassume he knows and then when he
doesn't, I'm and I and I really think about like, Oh yeah, how

(29:35):
would he know? Even though he's, you know,
every piece of information in his hand, right?
He's got his phone and you have the ability to look those things
up. You're not that old that, you
know, you didn't have Internet as you're growing up here in
high school. But why would you know what the
University of Miami, Ohio would be as a junior or whatever at
high school? Like unless dad was like, hey,
you know, if I went to school, I'm a Red Hawk.
I think they are, you know, like, how would it just

(29:57):
interesting, like the lenses that we see things through and
it's like, well, why don't you know that Paris?
And it's like, why would I know that, Dad?
Like, I see, unless you tell me,how in the world am I supposed
to know this school in Oxford? OH, for there's a lot of
schools. Dad, come on now.
It's just really interesting. So he, he, he like, when I saw
that I, I started to really likelook into that school.

(30:19):
So I started to look at Miami, Ohio a little bit more.
I was like, I don't want to be, you know, and me being from
Maryland, I didn't think about weather because I was like, oh,
we got snow, it's cold, we get snow.
It is what it is. Ohio, I've never been, I'll
whatever, I can go it, it'll be the same as here.
So it'd be the same as home, except it's not the same as

(30:39):
home. So, so we're doing, you know,
things. And I was going to my, my
college, actually college recruiting trips in the summer,
you know, not summer. My going to my senior year, I
was going on trips I'm. Ohio and pause there real quick.
What are you as a 17 ish year old kid who's, you know, going

(31:00):
to the senior year, you're starting to look at school.
You're actually kind of looking at schools a little early even,
which is crazy. You know, it's crazy to think,
you know, senior year going to high schools early.
But some people don't think about this stuff till March or
April, right? What are you?
Where is your mind as far as like, oh, I'm going to become my
dad's a cop. I'm going to go study criminal
justice, all right. I'm going to go pre Med.

(31:20):
What were you thinking as far aslike a major and therefore like
what I might become one day as an adult as a 17 year was?
When I was shoot, probably when I was 10, I was like, I'll be a
police officer. Then I thought about it.
Then I thought about, yeah, because of my dad, my mom's a
correctional officer. So.
So I was like, I'll probably go do that.
And then I, as I got a little older, I was like, I don't want

(31:41):
to do that because I don't want to do that.
I don't want to have to chase that to nobody.
I don't want to, I don't want none of that.
I don't want, I want to deal with it.
So then I, you know, it's like sports.
I was like, I just like sports. And I say, if I could do
anything to be around sports therest of my life, I want to.
And then I think it was my my sophomore junior year in high
school, we had these classes like I know my senior, we had a

(32:02):
college career ready course, butwe had something else.
And you know, we're talking about it with our with our
teachers. And they said, yeah.
And what do you guys want to do for, you know, when you go to
college? And I was like, I mean, if I go,
if I go to college, I want to dosomething sports.
And for whatever reason, I was thinking sport medicine.

(32:23):
Now me not really thinking aboutsports medicine.
And and then I finally, I did actually did some research on
sports medicine. I was like, oh, this has
biology, this has science. I want no parts.
You know, me and me and science were we were not friends.
Me, science and math, you know, we were not friends.
I was not friends with science and math.

(32:44):
And that was from middle school on.
Now I, I did, I tried to stay away from those two.
So I was like, what else can I do that's going to be around
sports? So I'm looking it up on the
Internet, you know, and I see sport management now.
It's like, what does that have? What is that, you know, And
then, you know, something just said managing sports.
I was like, oh OK, I guess now. Like I want to manage sports,

(33:08):
yeah. Look deeper into it.
And I was like, OK, oh, it's, it's, it's, it's more broad than
that. You know, it's, it's a lot more
stuff in into it than just managing sports, right.
So I was like, OK, I that's whatI want to do.
OK, you you weren't. I don't hear that coaching was
necessarily. No, yeah, no, no.
That's not easy. That's never mind.
That was never something for me.I I never thought about it.

(33:30):
I had never thought about coaching, ever.
Love it. Love it.
So senior year you're starting to be recruiting and you're kind
of thinking sports management. Talk to us about that recruiting
process. So that summer, actually that
summer going to Miami, Ohio, I was actually getting recruited
by the, I was getting recruited by, you know, because I reached
out, talked to him. I remember my official visit.
What What year did you graduate high school?

(33:51):
2014 OK. Perfect.
Thank you. So it's 2014.
It was a weird time with Miami, Ohio, but I, I, I went out, me
and my dad went out and it was cold.
I don't, I think we went, we hadto have gone in the winter
sometime. So it was cold.
And we get out there and he's he's reminiscing big time.

(34:14):
He hadn't been back since he graduated.
So he's reminiscing big time. He's showing me around and he's
like, oh, wait, you have a tour.And I was like, yeah, I do.
So I meet with the coaches and Iwas being recruited by the
combined events coach and the hurdle coach and I, their names
are gone out of my memory right now, but I was being recruited
by two coaches there. And you know, I was like, they

(34:34):
told me like, hey, you got to pick one.
You can't do both. And I was like, I can do both.
I could do both. And it was like, no, we're,
we're trying to tell you like ifyou do the combined events, it's
going to be difficult to do the fun of hurdles because of the
training that you have to do. I love a 17 year old telling
college coaches, no, you don't know what you're talking about,
I can do this. So I mean, I'm, I'm thinking I

(34:57):
could do it. I'm like, no, I got it.
I can do it. I can do it me today.
I know that me then was crazy toeven have that thought process.
Like I could do both of them. No, no, little parish, you
cannot do both. So yeah, we're, we're talking
about everything. And then I think I committed on

(35:19):
the spot, you know, I had committed on the spot.
And I was like, hey, you know, Isaid I'll go here.
My dad never pushed me to go there.
You know, he never told me, hey,this is where you should go.
I went here. He said you should.
He would just let me do my thing, you know?
So I know Miami fairly well I Ball State.
So we were in the same conference.
They have A, and I don't remember where the evolution,

(35:42):
but they're one of like now onlythree or four men's teams in the
conference. But they don't, I don't think
they had indoor track right, Like as a sport.
I think they had indoor and outdoor.
OK. This is what I'm about to get
into. They ended up cutting the men's

(36:03):
program, right at one point. So it was actually my senior
year. They had cut the men's program,
Yeah. Senior year, hold on Senior
year, high school, senior year of high.
School when I was about to, yeah.
So I was about to go. Hold on, let's paint that
picture. OK, so going into senior year,
you commit, you're like, yeah, this is what I'm going, I'm
going to follow, which is kind of cool, honestly, that you're,

(36:24):
you know, legacy I think is whatthey call it, right?
Legacy, commit. And then senior year you're,
you're running, you're, you know, you feel pretty probably
feeling pretty good, Like, oh man, I know where I'm going.
I can kind of just focus on running fast, finish out the
grades, yadda, yadda. And then Miami cuts the program.
They cut it, they cut it. It was, I think it was a Title
Nine thing, but also I'm not 100% sure.

(36:46):
It's almost never a title nine thing, just that's the excuse
that we use. It's a priority issue with these
universities. What I mean, you had to feel
like I, I just feel like. Here's Paris senior.
I was on. I felt on top of the.
World. Yeah.
Senior year, man. I'm graduating.
I feel good. You know, I made my school
choice. Like, there's no bumps in the
road, baby. And then, yeah, this barricade

(37:08):
comes with. And then that happened like, no
fault of your own. Like, if you, you know, senior
year you'd coasted and doing really good and you flunked
biology. It's like, well, you know,
Paris, that's on you. Like you, right, You did.
This had nothing to do with you.And they cut the program.
Senior year comes to a stop a little bit like, oh crap, what's
going through your mind? What do you do?

(37:29):
That's huge. So honestly, at that time I
looked at my dad. I said, look, hey, I'm back to
square one. I'm not going to school.
I'm a just. I said once I graduate, I'm a
just work. I said it is what it is.
He was like. That's a terrible decision.
You just throw it all out. That's what they call throwing
the baby out with the bathwater.What are you talking about?
Are you serious? So I was.
I had some, the option is to go to school in Maryland.

(37:52):
And like I said before, I didn'twant to go to school in
Maryland. I just did not want to do it.
So I was like, I'm just, I just work.
I'm, I'm making money, you know?But if Miami was recruiting you,
other schools, even outside of Maryland, had to be, yeah.
And it were. It didn't.
Fall back. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
You didn't fall back. Like, OK, well, I guess I'll try
Robert Moore. So you just.

(38:12):
I was just throwing everything away.
I'm. So glad you've grown up and
they're much better, more maturenow.
Again, you're an 18 year old at this point, so I can give a lot
of grace. So what do you do?
You. You.
You really quit. So no, I, I funny enough, I was
also being recruited by Audus and Broaddest University.
So wow, I'm being recruited by Audus and Broaddest the entire

(38:36):
time. Coach Jesse Weiner, he was
recruiting me the entire time. He would not leave me alone.
He wouldn't leave me alone. Honestly, he would not leave me
alone, which I'm actually happy nowadays that I'm, I'm happy
that he did it. But he just kept texting me,
calling me, whatever it was, allthese things going on.
Like I said, Miami had cut the program and then and it's just

(39:00):
like things in March, this happens.
I you know, I'm thinking I'm going there in February, you
know, and then in March just no.And I'm like, all right,
whatever. And then in April go to pen
relays. I see coach Weiner.
I see coach Jesse Weiner there, right?
And he's there with two, I thinktwo people on the team.

(39:22):
You know, they they were running.
I think it was a distance event and probably the somebody doing
a hep actually two people that are my teammates.
You know, that very next year. And, you know, he's talking to
me and I'm looking at him like, buddy, I don't know nothing
about West Virginia. I said I know nothing about West
Virginia. I don't think I would ever go to

(39:46):
that state. And you know, we're just talking
like he's talking to me. And I'm, I'm just, I told him
like, like, honestly, you know, I was like, I don't think I'm
ever going to go to that state. Funny enough, though, one of my
teammates was already committed there, inside there for
football. And we were teammates for
football and we were teammates for trap.
So he's at Penn Relays with me. He meets, you know, coach and

(40:10):
you know, we're talking. And then he was like, you know,
after the meet he was like, hey,Paris, you should just come on
like we'd be roommates, you know, whatever, blah, blah,
blah. I was like, man, I don't know.
He's like, Nah, man, come on. Like you got to, you know, come
on with me. You say you you say you're not
going to Miami no more. Just come to school with me.
And I was like, man, I don't want to go to West Virginia.

(40:31):
I've never been there like that.I said I have never been to that
state or that school. So another young decision.
Sorry about that, my dog. There's a dog right there.
Is the dog's name like brought us or something?
And so it's like, Oh no, just talking about.
Daisy, actually, but. Nice, nice, nice.

(40:51):
But yeah, so my, my roommate, myfreshman, yeah, he's, he's like,
yeah, come on, man. I was like, all right, so I made
a young decision and I was like,all right, I'm, I'm going to
commit there, you know, so I just committed, had never been
to the school anything. Just committed to a school
blindly and show up to orientation in the summertime.
And I was looking at, I was like, I chose to come here.

(41:12):
Oh my goodness. I was like, Oh my goodness.
I I said this is not what I thought I was going to, what I
was signing up for. And, you know, the coach had
told me like, yeah, we're going to track.
He was like, we're, we're in thetalks of it, you know, OK, so
when I got on the campus and I was like, hey, what's the track?

(41:32):
He was like, Oh, yeah, we're in the talks for it.
And I was like, OK, where is it?Where's it going to be at?
He's like, I'll let you know whenever you get back from
campus. So after I go to that
orientation, I'm already signed up for classes and everything.
My high school coach texts me and says, hey, Paris, I know

(41:52):
about Miami and all that stuff. Are you?
He said you found out about findanother school.
Yeah, I just said, I said Joe told me about, you know, all
this and brought us and I just said I'd go, you know, I'd go
there because the coaches never stopped blowing on my phone.
He was like, what? He said well, I just got a call
from UNCW. About.

(42:16):
This and I was like, huh, I was like, wait, what I said, where's
that? You know, he's like it's in
North Carolina. It's it's down in about a about
a water. I was like, Oh well, sorry, I
can't do anything with it because I've already signed to
the school and I'm I'm going here.
I just got back from doing like doing stuff for my classes.

(42:36):
He's like, oh, well, he said, well, it's worth it's worth
asking you about it. So we kind of left that alone.
Then I end up, you know, Fast forward through the rest of the
summer, because this is all in the summer that that happened.
You know, I get to, you know, the the school year in my
freshman year and boom, I'm at artists and brought us and I

(42:59):
walked onto the football team. And so that's a lot, a lot of
people don't know that I did that.
I walked to the football team because when I was on, when I
was at orientation, I saw the football coach and I was like,
Hey, you know, and I talked to him a little bit and he was
like, Hey, can I walk onto the team?
And he was like, yeah, sure, youknow.
So the head coach said, sure, I never talked to my position
coach. Head coach said, sure, never

(43:22):
talked to my position coach or the office coordinator.
So I went from, as I told you inhigh school, I was playing more
safety. I did play a little bit of
receiver here and there. But when I got to college I said
I'm not going to worry about thedefensive side, I worry about
receiver and I'll stick to that.So whenever I move in, I move in

(43:44):
early with football now, I wasn't supposed to move in as
early just because I was like you said, as a walk on, you move
in when everybody else moves in and then you because I'm not
going to go through the camp, but my roommate was already
there. So I was like, I move in and
that's where I met the other Paris my already so that Paris
is actually from DC, which we would have ran into each other

(44:06):
many times and just did not know.
And I'm on the football team too.
And you know, I'm just going through football stuff, you
know, go through the entire football season.
And at the end of the year I waslike, Oh, well, actually in the
before the first game, my track coach called me in his office
and was like, Hey, Paris, I got to tell you something.

(44:27):
I was like, what's that? And he was like, well, you don't
they say you're not eligible this year.
And I was like, how because I graduated with three five, I'm
on that eligible, eligible. He said, well, I'm looking at
like your credits and stuff. And it's like you're half a
credit short. And I was like, what?
No way. So then I backtracking my mind,

(44:48):
I'm like, what could I be? Half a credit short?
And I was like, ah, so we had the half a day schedule that you
can have. And some people would use that
half a day schedule as, hey, I'mgoing to school every other day.
So you just put that half a day,put it together on one day.
And that's what I did. So I did that every other day at
school. And I dropped my forensic

(45:13):
science class. I did not like science.
Forensic science I was OK with, but I didn't want to have it
because literally my day was I go to school, I go to gym, I go
to one other class, I go back togym, I go to another class, I go
back to gym and then I go to English and that was my day.
And I was like, that's my A day.And my b-day was I go to, I

(45:36):
think it was forensic science. I go to a gym class, I go to
something else. So it was like a one of the days
is just like, I don't really care about just being here doing
the same thing over and over andover again when I could be
making money while I'm in school, you know, So I just went
and decided to have a, you know,every other day of school

(45:57):
schedule and I thought I was good.
My counselor thought I she said I was good for graduation, but
she didn't. Didn't do for Hey, you're good
for sports. So what happens?
So I'm just, I'm just there, I'mstill, I'm still practicing,
still doing my training and everything, but I just, I

(46:19):
wasn't, I would, I would say, I would, I won't say I was
defeated, you know, because. Yeah, I was thinking that's
another roadblock, yeah. Yeah, somebody, you know, you
hear that? You're like, well, Dang, you
know, especially hearing from melike, oh, when Miami, Ohio, I
was, I'm just not going to school.
And I was like, whatever, man. I, I guess I just get my grades
up now and, you know, see what happens.

(46:40):
And I just stayed there. You know it again, in Phillippi,
West Virginia. That's where all this broadness
was. Phillippi, West Virginia nothing
there, it's not much there 30 minutes in three different
directions to your nearest Walmart.
You got an hour until you get toMorgantown, WV, where West

(47:02):
Virginia University is. You wanted to go to Charleston,
WV. You got two hours that you grab.
So it was it was rough for me being from, you know, the
suburbs of of Prince Jose County, Maryland, of Largo, MD,
to going to. Country.
Phillippi, West Virginia, the country, the country roads for

(47:22):
sure. You know, it was, it was
different, but you know, I did my, you know, I did that first
year and I was like, you know, Imet some good people here.
So, you know, and everybody likemy sister's dad and my uncle, he
asked me, he's like, you want toleave?
And I was like, I do, but I'm also too lazy to do all that
extra stuff to look at other. Places do it all over, you know,

(47:43):
Right. Yeah.
Because there was no transfer portal.
So it was more of a you talk to your AD, your AD or your
compliance director, and then the compliance director gets
everything situated for you and you go, I was just too lazy, you
know, and I'll admit that, I admit it all the time.
I was too lazy to leave. So did you stay the entire time
at AB? Yeah.

(48:03):
Is that right? Wow.
In my entire four years there, so my sophomore year, and I
forgot to mention this, my freshman year, we had a coach
came in. She actually came from Ashland.
So I knew something about Ashton.
I didn't know a whole bunch, butI knew Ashton was good in trap.
So she had came over and she was, you know, she was an all

(48:25):
American hurdler. I was like, all right, perfect.
I got an all American hurdler. That's my coach.
She's going to help me get faster, get used to these 42
inch hurdles, get used to the, you know, the 400 hurdles, you
know more and I'm going to be all American.
You know, I was like, she's going to help me get to that.
She left in December. Oh man.
So she had left in December. She let some of the girls on the

(48:47):
team know that she was leaving. I found out in January.
When I got back to school, I waslike, Dang, I don't have a
coach. So now I'm just doing all this
training on my own and just trying to trying to keep my
hopes up, you know, keep my hopes up during this year.
Summer comes, I get a phone callfrom this random guy, and me and

(49:10):
him talk about it every day, still to the day.
Coach Earl Graves, you know, so Coach Graves is actually at
Mount Olive in North Carolina right now, but he called me in
the summer. He's like, hey, Paris, you know,
this is Coach Graves. I'm the new Sprint coach at AB.
You know, I got your number fromcoach.

(49:31):
Coach winner. We're going to, you know, I want
to talk to you. I want to make sure I talk to
you. You're the first call I'm
making. I saw your time from high
school. I know that you weren't running
last. You didn't get to run last year.
I want us to, you know, build some type of relationship so
that, you know, when you get here, we can, you know, we'll be
good and then we can get to work, you know, whenever season
comes by. So me, I was like, all right,

(49:51):
man, you know? Yeah.
You know, that was just. Yeah, yeah.
We'll see You're going to leave too.
It's. Summertime, I was like, you're
going to leave in December anyways, You know, it is what it
is. But no, I, you know, when I got
back crazy enough, Coach Weiner,you know, asked me to do cross.
You know me, I was like, I'm notplaying football.

(50:12):
Oh, I forgot to mention, I told the coaches I wasn't playing
football no more after the season.
Smart decision. You know, I think it was a smart
decision for myself and for my career and how everything went
and for my body, honestly, for sure.
But you know, I get back to school and I'm running cross
country. First time in my life ever run

(50:33):
across country. I didn't do all the mileage
everybody else did. I didn't I I was the biggest guy
on my team. You know, I was still, you know,
I had put on weight in football,so I was just the the biggest
guy on my team. And you know, and then everybody
else is out there is like, wow, is he out here?
You know, my teammates weren't saying that because they're

(50:53):
like, hey, we need a fifth guy and Paris, you're the fifth guy.
And I was like, I'll be the fifth guy every day of the week.
You know, I would not drop from 5th because I can't, I would not
be fourth though. And we would, you know, we went
through the year and I just kindof I liked it because the one
thing I liked about it was a guy, you know, because I was a

(51:15):
foreign hurler. I, I built up the wind.
So I would never tell anybody todo cross country, you know, if
they don't need to or if they'renot, you know, asked to do it.
But I would never tell anybody to do it.
But it did for me. It helped me, you know, with my
wind. But then also, you know, my, we,
we ate good. So I was like, Hey, you feeding

(51:35):
me so I can't get mad at you. You're feeding me.
We're good. The one thing I didn't like was
every time that we went to, whenever we went to conference,
I would always look at it like, dude, I'm gonna come in last.
And I don't like losing. I don't like losing that much.
Like at regular meats, I'm OK, Everybody knows I am a sprinter.
But when you get to the conference, it's like, dude, I

(51:59):
don't want to come in last. So if I got a Sprint for the
last 400 meters of this race, just let me know where 400
meters is. Honestly, let me know where 800
meters is and I'll start runningthere and I'll start sprinting
there. Yeah, very much so.
Cross country humble me a lot and then we will go to regionals
and we were in the G Max. So we're in the Midwest, you

(52:21):
know, we're in the Midwest region and we're always at what
school is that? It's in Indiana.
I think they're D1 now IU. IUPUI or University of Indy?
No, it's not you, Andy. Oh my goodness, why am I
forgetting? Marion flames.

(52:41):
Marion, Oh the flames. Flames.
Not not flames, but it's going to pop up in my head, but I I
forget exactly what it, but I know it was a Native American
where we ran. That was a Native American site,
you know, so it's like a tombs there, Native American tombs and
we were running there, ran there.
The two years I ran across country.

(53:01):
We were running there for regions and I dreaded it.
I was like first of all, we're in this fan for hours.
I have to run and it's 100 plus,maybe 200 plus.
People are running. I am going to get last and my
coach does not care and I'm running a 10 Ki only thought

(53:22):
about A8. And I'm running, right?
So I honestly didn't know it wasa 10K until we got the regions
my freshman year. Coach conveniently did not.
Tell he was like, oh. Yeah, just keep going bro.
See, I don't know. I'm just like dude, what?
So then, you know, I think I got5th the last my first year I got

(53:47):
5th the last. And I looked at him, I said I
didn't get last and I told you Iwasn't.
I said we beat somebody. We beat two teams.
We beat two teams that year. And then the second year, same
thing, we beat. No, well, I got tempted last I
think. And I said we beat a couple more
teams. So I said, but this is I'm done.
I ain't doing this no more. And you're like, what you mean?
I said, Nope, you got more people.

(54:08):
You're recruiting more. Yeah, go recruiting some more.
So now I got to track and actually, because Graves was,
you know, he said, I'm glad you're not doing cross no more.
He said, I wanted you never to do it, but I couldn't say.
I couldn't say nothing, right. So, you know, we get in track
and we still don't have this track.
You know, my sophomore year, no track.

(54:30):
You know, I'm I'm, I'm getting into the hurdles and everything.
No track my junior year, no track.
Like OK, He's like, no, I didn'teven ask my coaching anymore.
I was like, I want to ask you about the track, but I'm not,
you know, it's no need for me toeven ask you about anything with
the track because you told me hewas getting in my freshman year.
We didn't get it. Told me he was getting in
sophomore year. We didn't get it.

(54:50):
So he was getting in my dinner here.
We didn't really have, we didn'thave it, but they were actually
talking about it. So they did break ground, broke
ground at the high school. It's about 10 minute drive away.
They broke ground there and theywere putting a track there.
So then my, I think my junior year I qualify for national

(55:13):
foreign hurdles, at least the provisional qualifying time.
So I wasn't making it anywhere. I just hit the hit a standard
right And I was like, all right,that's I like that.
You know, a lot of the people that I raced in the conference
meet were very fast. I think Malone had gotten to the
conference my junior year, and that was when I had to race.

(55:37):
He's in the NFL now. Ashlyn Doolin.
So he came in with, you know, the time.
His times were all faster than everybody, you know, and the
one, well, not the one and the two, the 110 hurdles, the 400
hurdles, he had the best long jump.
He probably would have had the best high job.
And me, I'm looking like just want to win something, you know,

(56:01):
so, and also I failed to mentionthis.
We didn't have the combined events as a as an event in the
conference. So me being somebody that does
it, we didn't have it. So I did all those events
individually. My sophomore year was the, well,
my junior year, my sophomore year on the track, my junior
year was the first year that I actually did like a decathlon

(56:24):
without it being a decathlon. So I did povo in this outdoor
conference. I did povo.
I did long jump, I did high jump, I did the four by one.
I did the 4x4, I did the once inhurdles, the foreign hurdles.
I did javelin. I just did not throw shot.
Holy. Cow did all of this at the
conference meet. Now POVO got rained out day one.

(56:47):
We had to come back day 2. So I counted it as, hey, this is
a tough event and did that and Iagain, I enjoyed it, You know,
my dad drove all the way up to see it, you know, but Ashton
dueling now, I raced him. I beat him in once in hurdles.
That was his bread and butter and I was ecstatic.

(57:07):
I. Was super happy.
I know he was pissed off. Me and him are good buddies
today, but I know he was pissed off because he did not let me
see a win in the foreign hurdles.
So that year, I mean I got second to him.
I was like, whatever it is what it is.
And then go into my senior year.Actually, after the season,

(57:28):
Coach Graves had announced that hey guys, you know, I'm, I'm
leaving, you know, so he took another job.
He took a job at Mount Olive. So he's been at Mount Olive
since 20. And I saw my junior year, 2017,
20/16/2017 was that year. So 2017 he would have went down
to Mount Olive and he's been there since.

(57:50):
And you know, when he left, I was like another time with no
coach and I don't have a coach no more.
But at also in this time, I'm thinking about grad school for
whatever reason. And I was like.
So I was going to ask you, as we're going into senior year,
are you still sports management as an undergrad?
And, and I still, I'm not hearing it from your story.

(58:12):
I I'm still not hearing like, Ohyeah, I'm going to become a
coach. Oh, Nope, yeah, it's it's won't
come in to see a year then, but that's.
That's good. OK, so walk us through senior
year as you start looking at grad school for Crowd out loud.
Yeah, and remember I told you I didn't like school.
That's all right, yeah. I'm, I'm thinking about grad
school only because I was like, oh, I got another year of track.

(58:33):
So that's, that's what I was looking at.
I was like, I have another year of sports.
So I'm in grad school and I'm, you know, going in the same
year. I'm a sport management major
with a minor in business administration, but I was taking
classes in communication becauseone of my good friends he was

(58:54):
did the same thing. But communication was his second
minor because they forced us to have two.
We had we had a hat. To have a minor within a sport
management major, you had to have a business something minor.
So that was mine was communication and I could have
made it a major. So double major.
But they told me I had to come back for another semester and I

(59:15):
said it's not happening, ain't happening, but going to stay in
a year. The coach that came in to coach
me then was a year older than me.
I had raised him the year prior.I had raised him.
He went to East Stroudsburg. I had raised him in the once in
hurdles. He was an All American hurdler.
So I was like, I'll listen to you.

(59:37):
I said I won't call you coach, but I'm going to respect you.
I'm I'm going to respect you. I'm going to make sure everybody
else in the same respects you because I was just looked at us,
the team captain on the team, you know, we never did votes,
but everybody kind of looked to me to get any, anything from the
coaches. They would look to me and you
know, I always told him how you know, his name is Steve.

(59:59):
You know Steve, we always, always anything with Steve.
I told him I was like, listen, II said just help me with my one
10s. I said you help me with that.
We're good. I said I know you can't really
help me too much with the 400 hurdles, but you help me with
these one 10s. I love you forever.
So he did help me with my one 10s a little bit, but what I

(01:00:21):
didn't know and he mentioned this to me later, you know, he
was like, you know, anything youdo with the one 10s, like he
said you're not going to run 14 two.
He said you're 5 foot nothing. He said I'm 5 foot nothing, but
I just have more speed than whatyou do.
He said anything I'm doing with these one 10s is going to
translate to the force. And I was like, how, you know, I
just was confused, like, how's that going to translate?

(01:00:42):
I said, it doesn't make sense. I said if I run a 800, maybe you
could say it translates, but notme running the 110 hurdles.
That ain't translating. And he was like, trust me, you
know, So I did trust him. And I had qualified for
nationals again, foreign hurdlesthis time I ran a little faster,
you know, and I'm looking at schools to go to within this,

(01:01:07):
you know, within his time. And because he went to East
Stroudsburg, I said, you know what, let me let.
Me. Applied to East Stroudsburg.
So I applied to East Stroudsburg.
I applied to Liberty University and the only reason I applied to
Liberty University was because my my professors told me hey,
they have a great sport management program.

(01:01:27):
So I was like, oh, OK, let me look into that.
And then I also applied to Western University because they
also had a great, you know, sport management program,
master's program. And then the last school I
applied to was IUP. So 2P sack schools, 2 Division
One schools, one in Virginia, one in West Virginia, the one in

(01:01:50):
West Virginia, no track. Every other school has tracked.
So I got accepted into every school.
Now for me, it was just a decision on where do you want to
go? So I'm, I'm just thinking about,
I'm like, oh Lord, I don't know how.
I don't know where I'm going to go.
Do I go to PA? Do I go to Virginia?

(01:02:11):
Do I stay in West Virginia? Those are my decisions.
And ultimately I made the decision to go to IUP.
So I had some friends that and went to IUP, some people I
competed against in high school.So they just went there.
Not everybody knows IUP. We're talking about Indiana
University of Pennsylvania, correct?
Yeah. Yeah.
OK. Just so everybody's on the same
page. Keep going.

(01:02:31):
You're good. So yeah, not IUPUI.
Yeah, as I say, there's yeah, there's other.
People in Pennsylvania. So, yeah, I'm, I'm over there
and, you know, I go to the go toIUP.
You know, I emailed the coaches,try to call the coaches, all
this stuff. You know, I heard back from the
distance coach, the head coach, coach Joey Zenns, you know, he

(01:02:52):
was like, hey, you know, yeah, they take you in.
You know, he's like, you're fast.
So we definitely going to, you know, get you here.
Funny, even funnier situation. I look back at pictures from my
senior year and IUP had came to one of the track meets we hosted
at the high school. They were at a last chance meet

(01:03:13):
that I competed in and I, you know, I just the last chance
meet. I knew I was going there.
The homie. I was thinking about it, but I
wasn't sure I was going to go. But I was like, you know,
whenever I look back at my pictures that pop up my phone,
I'm like, that's funny. IUP is in the back and I ended
up going there. Now you mentioned your senior
years, where coaching starts to,Oh yeah, enter the picture.

(01:03:37):
So in class I had a professor. He used to be the AD at the
school. He was the baseball coach at the
school, JD Long and JD pretty much he told me he was like he
looked at me in class one day because it was a coaching class
we had and I just needed it justbecause I needed extra credit or
so. And I was like, I'm just taking

(01:03:58):
this just to I need these credits.
So I'm going to take this class,whatever.
It's 2 credits, two credit course.
I'm just take it. And he said everybody in here is
not going to be a coach. First day.
He said everybody in here is notgoing to be a coach.
I was like, yes. You're like, Yep.
Looked at me. He looked at me and was like,
I'll see. You know you will.
You said we're going through theyear and he said to me he was

(01:04:21):
like, is the Paris you? You have this this personality
about you and there's something about you like you'll be a coach
one day. And I was like, you, JD are
crazy because you're crazy. I would never coach because I
can't do it. I said I can't, I can't deal
with this. I said I got my teammates that
be complaining about everything.I can't I I stayed at high

(01:04:42):
school. Oh, that was even worse.
I said I I would never coach andhe said I think you'll coach.
So you know, I, I heard it. I was like, you're just talking.
I said you're old. You're just talking, man.
It is, it is what it is. You're just talking.
So then I go to grad school, right?

(01:05:02):
I do my year in grad school. I do, I do my first year in grad
school, my last year of track. And I mean, I'm getting coached
by, you know, an, an Olympian, Michelle Berger.
You know, she competed for Jamaica in 2008.
I think they were a bronze Med Listen to 4 by 4.
So she she's my coach, her husband, coach Duncan.

(01:05:26):
He was coaching me in like the hurdles.
You know, she would coach me everything else and he would
coach me in the hurdles and you know, we went through that.
It was I know you hear me talking, calm down.
But so she's coaching me in in other things.
She's coaching me in the hurdlesand you know, they're like

(01:05:48):
Paris, you're why didn't we recruit you before?
And I was like, I don't know, why didn't you recruit?
Me, I don't like it. I have a track.
On campus, who's big? It's nice.
I said, why didn't you recruit me before?
And I said, I don't know. So we had a guy that was on the
team I was from from Maryland, he's from Baltimore.
And I was like, see, you recruited him.
And. They're like, no, that's all

(01:06:09):
bad. You know, that's all bad.
I was like, yeah. But you know, through that year,
you know, we're going through things and then we go into, you
know, the outdoor conference meet and I think it was the
fastest and it's still currentlythe fastest four in a hurdle
race that that conference has ever seen.

(01:06:29):
You had the number one time in the nation at that point of
time. You had in funny enough, the 5th
place finisher was the national champion 2 years later, Sam
Hartman that went to Seton Hill.He was the, he won the national
championship 2 years later, but the people that ran it was a 50

(01:06:51):
point, another 50 point and it'sa 51.
And then I came through at 52 high, No 52 low or 5252 high.
So I figured. It was so Dad kept the family.
Yeah. Yeah.
OK. Yeah, I coached somebody
fascinating him. Though yeah, that don't count.
Doesn't count. But you know, I came through,

(01:07:13):
you know, at that time and I waslike, you know, I was upset
because of the fact that it was done, like had my track rears
done. But also at the same time I was
happy. I was like, it's just I ran
fast, so I can't really be mad. And then that next year, you
know, I'm in school and my I'm actually being the, I'm like a

(01:07:34):
volunteer assistant coach because I was still on campus,
but I was done track. So I'm a volunteer.
Did you go into that second year, like, thinking like, oh,
OK, I'll, I've got another year of grad school, so I'll help the
team out a little bit with the idea of like, oh, because I'm
going to become a track. I'm still not here.
And like, I'm surprised you're atrack coach at this point.
Yeah. Yeah, Yeah.
OK. All right.
So it's just something to do. Yeah, it's something to do

(01:07:56):
because I mean, I was working atthe car dealership.
I was working, I needed some money.
I was working at the car dealership.
I'm doing this at volunteer coaching.
But all I was really doing was just running with them.
You know, I was just running with, with foreign hurlers and
the foreign runners. And then I got a phone call,
random night, got a phone call from Jesse Weiner.

(01:08:17):
You know, he's like, hey, what you doing?
And I was like playing the game,like why?
What's up? And he was like, you want to
coach? I was like, coach where?
Coach what? And he was like coach track.
He said, do you do you want to yes or no?
And I was like, yeah, yeah, I get into it.

(01:08:38):
Where? So I knew Jesse had already.
He was leaving from Audison Brothers.
So he was leaving at this point.He was leaving to go to another
school. He ended up taking a job at
Virginia and Wesleyan. He was asking me about coaching
and I was thinking he's taking me with him.

(01:08:58):
I was like, oh, go to Virginia Beach.
I'm good. You know, I'll be in Virginia
Beach. That's not what it was.
Oh wow. He was actually calling me for
the next head coach. That was that that you had.
Just left a year and a half ish.Yeah, just left a year and a
half, and I was thinking he was just taking me with him.
Right. So, you know, he talked to me

(01:09:18):
about it. He told our AD, you know, he
told her about me. Well, she already knew me.
You know, the AD already knew me.
I didn't talk to her much because she was the compliance
director at the time when I was in school, but she already knew
who I was. All this stuff about me.
And then the new head coach comes in.
She had coached at a bunch of different schools.

(01:09:40):
Caitlin Christopher. I always call her Miss West
Virginia because she's the firstwoman to or the 1st girl high
school girl to break. Was it the run?
Was it the break? I think it was a break, 5
minutes in the 15 in high school.
So I call her Miss West Virginia.
She went to WVU and she every time I say it to her, she's

(01:10:01):
like, oh, my goodness, Paris, stop saying that.
And I'm like, no, you, that's you.
I mean, I know you try to be humble about it, but that's you.
So then she called me, you know,a week later or so, and was
like, hey, Paris, you know, Jesse told me about this, this
and this and, you know, I want to get you in an interview.
And I was like, all right, I'm still in school, but you know, I
could leave at any point. So I go on my interview.

(01:10:27):
I think I killed it on my interview.
But also at the same time, she knew she wanted to hire me
because she told me she's like, hey, I want to hire you.
And then also, it was a place that I was familiar with.
Now, the hard part about that was that most of that team were
my teammates, you know, the yearprior.
Your Steve. Yeah.
So I was like, well, Oh well, you know, it is what it is.

(01:10:54):
So then I come in and I'm coaching.
But some of the did you? Did you finish your degree at
IUP? I didn't.
I didn't. So I was, I was in the middle of
it and I just, I just stopped school and I was like, I'll
finish this. Later.
Why though? Because, you know, you're still
not a strong candidate to be AI know you're people are speaking
into you. You know, JD spoken to, you

(01:11:14):
know, Jesse thought about calling you for this, things
like that. But it's not like it's your
calling at this point. I'm not really sure you had a
call in at this point. You know, you wouldn't be in
sports or you're still not pursuing that educationally.
So I'm surprised that you weren't like, yeah, yeah, I can
do that. But I got to get my grad like
I'm already at least halfway through it.
But you just like, OK, let's let's go try this.

(01:11:36):
Yeah. And, and I think that was just
me taking a taking a leap of faith right there, honestly, so.
How did that work? Because this is an interesting
topic because you, you started talking about it with Steve.
So I believe that there should, you know, short, short, short of
being an actual rule. I don't think if you undergrad

(01:11:56):
at, at at Alderson Broadus that you should be allowed to do grad
work at Alderson Broadus becauseI just think like, man, Paris
on, you know, on Friday, your boys with the, the team and
you're playing Xbox in the dormsand all this kind of stuff.
And then Monday, now you're in grad school, you're the grad
coach. You're supposed to be coach
Vaughn. Like there's no way that works
out the way it's supposed to work out.
And so when you mentioned about Steve, he didn't go to Alderson

(01:12:18):
brought us, but he still you, like you said, you're like,
dude, I know you're a year olderthan me.
Like I raced against you last year.
Like what are you talking like? And now I'm supposed to call you
coach? Like like it.
It's hard for a a 21 ish 22 yearold kid.
You're still a kid at that pointto do that.
So IA 100% see that. So now you're like I said,
you're Steve. So now you come back and there's

(01:12:39):
your boys. You just there's a lot of people
on the team. You were just kicking it with,
you know, playing Xbox and stuff.
And now you're supposed to be coach Vaughn.
How did you handle that? So I, how it, how it went was
actually pretty. It was, it was that was like I
said, that was a little hard part, but it was easy in a sense
because most of the guys that I was teammates with, they were

(01:13:04):
younger, you know, so my team actually when I when I
graduated, the team was young, you know, we had a senior year
to. Year half removed.
So there is some. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. So we had some seniors when I
graduated. It was a good load of the team
were seniors and then everybody else was a freshman or a
sophomore, right, Right. So then when I graduate now

(01:13:25):
they're sophomore, junior. But you're still that.
That makes a lot of sense. There's a few people that still
know you, but not like the majority of the team.
Yeah. So it's not the majority of the
team now. But but you're still a 2324, so
you're still for some of these kids only a year 2, maybe 3
years old. You know, it's a little bit
like, oh, dude, I just watched film on you.
Like we just watched the right the the conference meeting
there. You were like, what do you?

(01:13:46):
Mean and that's and that's just some of them said, you know, and
for them it was they looked at it a little weird.
I looked at it a little weird, but then also it was like it was
just kind of a gain of trust thing.
You know for me with them, you know, I was like I got a gain
y'all trust somehow and you knowI was just that I was assistant
coaching my the head coaches waslike, Hey, I'm not telling you
to be me. I'm not telling you to change

(01:14:09):
who you are to fit a coaching role.
Be yourself. I was like, OK, I'm just not
going to hang out with nobody. I said at the end of the day.
That's the one thing can't do it.
That's where I don't feel like the undergrad who stays and
because you're like, yeah, and something's telling me you're
still hanging out. I just, you know, everybody
that's had on, you know, not many people, but you know, I've
had a few that have done that. And I was like, how'd you handle

(01:14:30):
that? And, you know, one person, I
can't remember who they were, but they they said, you know, I
probably looking back at it now,I probably could have handled it
better. And I was like, I know exactly
what that means. You were hanging out.
You can't be doing that. So it it still doesn't feel like
kind of using that light switch analogy that click that you are
coach Vaughn. It feels like you could coach.
You could be like that coach from Ashland.

(01:14:51):
It still feels like in December you could leave and go back to
grad school or a sports market. Where does the the the switch
flip, if you will, that? Oh, OK, This is what I've been
didn't even know I was searchingfor this, but this is what I've
been searching for. I am a track coach.
I think it might have been the first meet.
So I actually got to, I got to campus in November.

(01:15:15):
OK, makes sense. First meets the first beginning
of December, so I got there likeat the beginning of November, I
believe and I'm there we're going through our practices.
It's like it is what it is trying to think like they're
looking at me like this guy's young, you know, but you know,
but also the same time, it's like I'm still like two or three

(01:15:37):
years older than y'all. So but I also told them, Hey,
you don't got to call me Coach Vaughn.
Coach Vaughn was never a name that I ever told them to call
me. I said, you can call me Coach P
Coach Paris. You know, the people that have
my that are my like actually that were my friends.
I was like, you just call me Paris, you know?
And you weren't coaching them. You were like because I.

(01:15:58):
Was I was young, I was like, I'mnot going to try to get pull
that out of you. I'm not going to pull TI.
See, I can see that. I don't agree with it, by the
way, but I don't agree with it because I'm a 48 year old guy at
this point. I can see when you're in the mid
because now, hopefully now you can see the little difference
like, oh, I have to create separation.
That that's what that's what that title coach does.

(01:16:19):
It creates separation. And it's not like, oh, we're
homeboys and you just happen to tell me bark out orders what to
do. You know, you've been boys with
people where it's like, well, I don't agree with you, so I'm
going to push back because you're my boy.
You can't do that with a coach, you know, So you got to create
that separation. Now that's all tough, but I can
see as a first time, first time coached, you know, I, I get it,
I get it makes sense. So, so the also the other thing

(01:16:42):
is like, I think the one senior on the team was one of the girls
and that's like my best friend, you know, even till today is
like my best friend. So she kind of made sure to
handle that with everybody else,Like, hey, just don't you know,
So everybody looked up to her. So she helped me in that sense
too. But I did have a rule for them.

(01:17:03):
And I told him, I said, Hey listen, this is the if you see
me out, you got to go. So I said if, and it was one
place in town, it's called Little Moe's.
I said if I'm in Little Moe's and y'all see me, you got to
leave. If you're there and I walk in,
guess what, you got to leave because I'm now in there.
So they always let, we always laughed at it, but they always

(01:17:24):
made sure that, oh, if I see coach, I'm just leave out just
because give him his boundaries and you know, etcetera.
So that was a good thing. Yeah, for sure.
What happened in that first meet?
That was like, oh, you said something clicked in that first.
The first meet, the very first. One, it was, it was our, it was
our high jumper, you know, one of our high jumper.
She actually coaches at Adrian in college now and she broke the

(01:17:45):
school record at high jump. And I was like, this is with a
couple weeks of practice, we broke the school record, a high
jump. I OK, I must be, I must know
what I'm doing just a little bit.
You know, she broke the school record there.
One of my 400 girls, she had, I think we put her on the 500 and
she was from Morgantown, WV. We ran it at WVU.

(01:18:07):
So she was home and she didn't, she didn't run the fastest race.
And she came to me and said, Hey, coach, I ran that terribly.
And I looked at her. It was like, so no, yes, no, no,
no saying, hey, you ran that terrible.
But it was that. And then I remember it was a
couple like 20 minutes later, she was, you know, the head

(01:18:30):
coach was like, Hey, did you tell her she ran a race
terribly? I was like, no, she said, well,
she said that you said, and I was like, whoa, wait a second,
this didn't happen. So then that that also brought
me to, you know, that was like apro of the meet and then a con
of the meet. And it was like, huh, OK, now I
see how this is and I, I see kind of how I got to go about
this. So what?

(01:18:50):
What did? Let's stay there for a second.
Let's double click in there. So what did that teach you?
It for one, it it taught me thattaught me, Hey, make sure that
you not just to everything, you know, you got to like explain,
explain the race, explain this, this and this from because it's
everybody's not going to get it.You know, I was AI was a guy

(01:19:11):
when I ran, It's like and I finished my race, I breakdown my
race and my coach and then I getthe feedback, you know, or what
I thought, and then I get I wantthe feedback.
Then I realized like, oh, everybody's not like that and
everybody doesn't. They want, I got to break this
down for you so you can see it. And then I get your feedback
from what you heard from me rather.

(01:19:32):
Than. Reverse.
I think that's one of the hardest things for athletes who
become coaches and maybe the thelevel of hardness goes up the
better an athlete. You were right.
Like, like I wonder, I have to ask him this one time.
Like I wonder about Carl Lewis, who's turned into a fantastic
coach and obviously was a, you know, superstar athlete.
I wonder how long of a transition for him of it was

(01:19:53):
like, oh, well, this is what worked for me, whether it's
communication or a workout, etcetera.
So it should work out like just do what I did and you'll get
better. I think that's the hardest part
of the athlete turning to a coach transition is, oh, I've
only dealt with myself like I'veonly dealt with coaches telling
me what to do and how did that, you know, what did I take and
translate that into the workout in the race.

(01:20:15):
I now have 2030. Whatever number of kids in front
of you that are all different. They're not all little Paris's.
They're, you know, they're, they're a lot of different
people and they and communication is different for
each one of them. How they understand things, how
they want to be talked to is different.
And that's a hard thing to learn, especially, you know, two
weeks in, for crying out loud, you know, into a career at this

(01:20:37):
point. Yeah, that's interesting.
Yeah. And then and so that that whole
indoor season was it was like a learning thing.
Like we, I was learning every every day, every week, you know,
learning from them, them learning from me.
And it was really much for me. Learning from them is more of
like, OK, this works, this doesn't work.

(01:20:57):
This works. This works for this person.
This doesn't work for everybody else.
This works for, you know, so I was, that's right.
I was learning, you know, jotting down notes, you know, in
school I was always the, the note taker.
So I was always jotting down notes, just saying, OK, this,
this is how I had to do, this ishow I got to attack this day,
attack the next day, whatever itis.
That's also the year of COVID. So we went through the entire

(01:21:20):
indoor season. That was the last year that we
actually were in the GMAC because after that year Ashlyn
was coming to the G Mac, we wereleaving and going to the NEC and
we didn't know nothing at that point in time.
You know, nationals comes around.

(01:21:40):
We don't have anybody at Nationals.
Head coach was like, hey, do youwant them to run at a spring
break meet? So she actually asked me for,
you know, hey, do you want them to do this?
And I was like at the how indoorwent with my my group, I said,
I'm going to give them time off.And then we come back and, you
know, unless you want to do it. And she was like, Nah, I was
just trying to figure out what you want to do and then we'll go
from there. So then we go spring break.

(01:22:04):
I actually went back and hung out with my grad school and my
friends and teammates from grad school hang out with them.
And it got a phone call. I asked the call like, hey,
Paris, good news, you know, and you still got a job.
Bad news. The, you know, COVID, something

(01:22:25):
with COVID and yadda, yadda, yadda.
Everybody got to leave campus there.
There's no more. Seats don't don't come back,
Yeah. So it wasn't a don't come back
for, you know, for me, it was more of like, hey, we got to
tell all the kids. We got to find out a way to tell
the kids like no season. So I'm sitting there, I'm on the
beach, I'm typing up notes on myphone like how can I put this?

(01:22:45):
And I kept sending it back to her.
And I was like, how do we you know, she was like, OK, that's
that works. Not so I sent the message to him
and she wanted me to do it cuz Ihad a better connection just
because of my age being closer. So I sent it to him, let him
know and they were like, oh whatthe heck.
And I finally get back to West Virginia, and little by little,

(01:23:06):
they're coming in, grabbing their stuff.
You know, COVID. We're like, what?
What in the world? Is that I don't.
I don't know. So that year goes by, the next
year comes, there's no indoor season the next year.
And the head coach was like, hey, you know, I'm going to let
you know this. I might not be coming back, you
know, after after this first semester, I might not come back.

(01:23:26):
And I was like, what? You mean she was like, well, I
just got to drive this hour to and from, you know, she said,
I'm not moving into Philippi. I, I live in Fairmont, WV.
I'm not driving my husband, my fiance, her fiance at a time,
her husband now he, you know, heworked at West Virginia
University as a nurse, you know,just like I'm not, we're not

(01:23:49):
moving because I just got back to West Virginia.
I'm not going to have, you know,and I was like, OK, I
understand. Then we had to set up a zoom
call with the team, though that Zoom call was was a crazy one
because she was, you know, she was explaining to people like,
hey, you know, I'm not coming back, you know, and they didn't,

(01:24:09):
you know, the team just like didn't understand it.
So then sex semester comes AD names me interim head coach.
So this is my second year of coaching, named interim head
coach and I'm like, what the heck, Going through everything
there. We still, you know, she's naming
interim head coach. She's like, hey, I'm naming
interim for the year just because we're going to do some

(01:24:31):
searching for other people to come in.
It's like, all right, cool. And I'll hold the Fort down
until somebody else comes in andsay I still want to, I want to
learn from somebody else becauseI said I'm learning.
I learned from Caitlin, but I also don't think I'm ready for
this. So I'll learn from somebody
else. So we're interviewing people and
then it's like, I think we had three candidates on campus and
just didn't you know, she didn'tlike him.

(01:24:51):
You know, Andy didn't like him. She was like, Nah, I'm going to
do it. Saying she's like, yeah, well,
guess what? I'm dropping that tag.
You're the head coach. Wow.
OK, I guess. And I think I was at the point,
at that point, I think I was theyoungest head coach in the
nation. Maybe where?
To set up my question that I wasasked first time head coaches

(01:25:11):
before I asked that what are youdoing if if anything, that's
fine with coaching education. And you know, for me, coaching
education is formal and informal.
Formal being like USATF level 1,Level 2, USTF CCA, Altus, things
like that. Informal and both of these are
extremely important. So I don't necessarily put one
above the other. Informal is mentors, people that

(01:25:33):
you call like, hey, I'm struggling with this form of
hurdler. What have you done?
Hey, can you take a look at thisfilm?
You know, those kind of things. What are you doing at this point
up to up to the interim head coaching position at Alderson
brought us. What are you doing coaching
education wise? So I didn't do any formal
coaching education at that time and formal wise I would just, I

(01:25:54):
was calling all the all my old coaches.
That's really all I was doing was calling all my old coaches,
asking them for their advice forsomething then also.
Go ahead. I'm sorry.
Then then also the other thing is, is like, hey, was I like
this, you know, as a as a athlete was I like this.
So it was more of just talking to all of my old coaches.
That's fairly and. You probably weren't going to
convention. No, yeah, we didn't have nobody.

(01:26:18):
We didn't fundraise the budget for that that first year.
Or. That's that first or that second
year actually we didn't raise any money for it, so.
I would assume that that's, that's fair.
OK, so now the interim tag pullsoff.
Now you're the, you know, you'rethe head honcho at a very young
age. You're not ready.
Almost nobody is ready for theirfirst head coaching job because

(01:26:39):
we don't do a very good job of supporting our assistant coaches
to become head coaches. You didn't even have time to be
supported to become a a head coach.
You're you're so young and you know, Covid's going on, you
know, things like that. So AD says A tag, you're it.
Yeah. Exactly.
What's the first thing? Is there a person you called?
Was there a there? I assume you're a smart enough

(01:27:02):
guy that there had to be some like, OK, well, I need to get
some help here, whether it's a book, a class, a person.
What's one of the first things you did?
So the very first thing I did, Iactually called well outside.
I called my parents and everything.
I called Coach Grace and I called him and I was talking to
him. So I think at this time he just,

(01:27:23):
he was promoted to director at Mount Olive during this time of
me being a head coach. And I'm sitting there talking to
him like, hey, I'm lost. How do I explain to me this,
this and this, you know, just tohelp me with this.
So he explained his side. Then I called Jesse Weiner.
He explained his he was like, well, I did leave these things

(01:27:43):
at the school for you, like, andthey he did leave some books and
Coach Graves. He mailed me some books.
So I was doing any research I could through all the stuff that
they sent me. I think I got most of those
books right here under my table here in my living room.
But you know, I'm reading those books and like, all right, said

(01:28:06):
OK, I'm I'm back in. Yeah, that's right.
Yeah. And in school, that you're
responsible for how many kids you have on the team that that's
where I think most head coaches come from, a posture of like,
what in the world do I just get myself into?
Because I don't want to let themdown.
I want them to have the best experience possible on this
team, whether it's, you know, running or just like just being

(01:28:29):
part of the team. And here I am.
I'm the one responsible for that.
I don't know what the Frick I'm doing, man.
Yeah, I think it comes from that, you know, you feel the
responsibility. Is that Daisy poking her nose
there? Yeah, that's her so well, yeah,
the other part about it is like my I didn't have an assistant at
this time, so it was just me and, you know, while it's just

(01:28:51):
me, we're just I, I how to say it.
I we were just dugging it, you know, we were going through it,
seeing how we could do right. We had a small team.
I think we had about, it's probably about 2020 something
people on the team. Probably.
Thank goodness. Yeah, I was.
I was. More people, more just stuff,
right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:29:12):
So I was actually happy. It was not too many people on
the team at that time. So we're making it through, you
know, doing what we got to do. And then I finally did hire AI,
hired a distance coach at some point.
And he was an alumni from IUP. So he, me and me and him never
connected. We never crossed paths.
We graduated the same year he left.

(01:29:33):
I got in there. How did you hire someone?
And what I mean by that is this is part of the training that
just never comes up in coaching,right?
Like, like, you know, I've said this in the past several
episodes here about, you know, 10 years ago when you go to a
tract clinic USFCA convention, you know, 80 to 90% of the talks
would be about how to coach a hurdler better, how to coach a

(01:29:54):
thrower, you know, the XS and OSpart of it.
And 10% would be about all the rest.
And we're learning. I say we me through, you know,
talks on social media and the podcast and stuff that, you
know, it might be the XS and OS are the easy part.
And that's hard to say for a guywho was a big coach and
education guy. But all the other stuff is more

(01:30:15):
important. And one of those things that we
I've yet to see this as a topic and maybe we've had it at
convention and I just didn't seeit, but I've yet to see, hey,
OK, first time head or whatever,first time you're going to hire
and fire people like the your head coach.
Now you're responsible for this.There's a way to properly do and
not do hiring. Here you are.
You're thrown in the middle of it.

(01:30:35):
I appreciate your leadership of stepping in.
You could have ran and you'd have told me like you'd have
told me like, hey, Miss AD, I'm not ready.
And so Mike, I left and I went and applied for this other
assistant job. I'd be like, I hope I get it.
No judgement. I get it.
But your leadership, you're like, OK, well, if it's going to
fall on my shoulders, it's goingto fall on my shoulders.
And I may not be perfect, but I'm going to do the best I can.

(01:30:56):
I I appreciate that tremendously, but here so it's
interesting you said, OK, now I hire a distance coach.
You, you had no clue you knew how you had been interviewed at
different spots. That's all you knew.
How did you do it And would you have done things maybe now
because you're a couple years more past and have done this
little you know maybe and been involved more experience with

(01:31:17):
this stuff. Would you've done it differently
now? Oh yes, absolutely, absolutely.
So my way of doing it was I was just calling people.
I said, hey, y'all know a distance coach, Y'all know
anybody wants to coach that's distance.
You know, calling all my friends, calling coaches, you
know, and they're trying to sendsomebody.
They're like, I'll look, I'll look, I'll look.

(01:31:39):
And I'm like, OK. So then I went on Google and I
said interview questions for coaches and I just pulled that
and I literally went verbatim reading that to the I think I
had. That is a great that that is my
biggest fear now. I appreciate you using the

(01:31:59):
resources and today we maybe useChatGPT, right, But that is
coaching by Google Now. Now, I'm not judging.
Please don't hear me say that, Paris, that's what you had in
front of you. But it's like, man, like my
heart just wants to help all these other assistant coaches
and first time head coaches likeman, you should be taught that
your administration should help you with that.

(01:32:20):
Your if you're an assistant coach on a staff, your head
coach should involve you in those things.
Say, Hey, here's how I do it andhere's how I learn.
Like, like these are skills thatcan improve and so therefore
need to be taught and for you toGoogle them like, come on, this
isn't a a senior year project. This is, this is another man or
woman's life in your hand. Like, you know, giving them an

(01:32:41):
assistant coaching job or not giving them an assistant
coaching job can dramatically affect their lives and yours by
the way you got to deal with them being on campus and, you
know, things like that. So I just, it just pains me to
know that, you know. This is not.
This is not uncommon. I guarantee you this is a story
told 100 times of the yeah, man,no one told me what to do.
They just told me to hire someone.

(01:33:02):
And so I was like, all right, Google, what do I ask?
That's crazy to me. We got to do better for our
coaches, is essentially what I'mgetting at here.
So, yeah, so the one guy that everybody had mentioned to me,
you know, he, I guess he was an alumni from IEP.
He was a distance guy. He was throwing through

(01:33:22):
distance. So he said he wanted to do it.
He came over, you know, came down and he was coaching with
me. The thing about the assistant
job at Autism brought us to, it was technically part time, but
as we all know, coaching is never part time.
So he wasn't getting paid much anything.

(01:33:44):
I found a way to get him to liveon campus, get him housing, got
him meals. And I was like, Hey, I'm, I'm
trying to do what I can to get you to the bulk of everything.
You know, you're not making a whole bunch of money, but it's
also cheap here. So, you know, he, he took that
whim to come in and we, you know, did what we could, you

(01:34:05):
know, got that conference. We, I think after he was hired
and everything, you know, we went through the year, you know,
got the conference, outdoor conference.
And he, I'm trying to think whathis people did.
I think he had two people that had scored in the FAFC.
I believe I had somebody that scored in the, you know, high

(01:34:28):
jump 4 by 1. There's also a new school record
in the high jump, you know, so there's different people that
had scored, you know, and I was like, shoot, I'm a first time
head coach and I got people scoring.
I'm doing something positive. We're in a brand new conference.
I'm doing something positive. And then that summer he left.

(01:34:50):
Now the reason that he left was he was going to get his
doctorate. So it's like not going to be
upset at you for that. You know, you're going to get
your doctorate. I am not going to do that.
So he left for that. And then I had to go through
another hiring process. This time I did not use Google.
I actually asked questions. I just, I made it like a, like a
regular conversation 1st and then we did the, the interview

(01:35:13):
pieces and I, I hired this, thisperson.
She, she actually, her husband went to school with me and I did
not know. So her husband was actually one
of the baseball coaches. She actually taught at the, she
taught at elementary school. So she was teaching and
coaching. We went through that entire year

(01:35:35):
and she, you know, she was killing it.
She literally killed it. Funny enough, I coach at LR now.
She was at 2 schools that were in that are in this conference
or yeah, so she went to Limestone 1st and then she
transferred from Limestone to Anderson and coach Kevin Eagle.
That said Anderson was her coach.

(01:35:56):
And I had to call him to figure out like, hey, do you think
she'll be a good candidate? And he was like, yeah, I, you
know, love her, blah, blah, blah.
You know, so that that helped mewithin everything to hire her
for sure. Then from there we had a 800
champion. So she coached the 800 champion
on the women's side. She coached a 1500, I think 4th

(01:36:17):
place finish. So we're we're doing what we got
to do, keep this thing rolling, bringing in a bunch of kids.
I think that first year I was the head coach, I brought in 20
kids, both of them from Maryland.
Trying to. Bring a bunch of kids from
Maryland. Hey, I'm here.
Just come on. Up.
You don't want to stay in state just like me.
Come on. So we bring all those kids in,

(01:36:38):
you know, when she gets there, Ithink we brought, oh, I actually
had one kid from California as well.
So got Maryland kids, got a California kid, got, you know,
all these other kids. It's different States and we're
bringing in. I mean, if you're from Maryland
and you didn't know about Alderson brought us, what does
that California kid think? Of she knew nothing.
She knew nothing about school. You know, she, she told me, hey

(01:36:59):
coach, only reason I came was because you had a good
connection me and you had a goodconnection and then you had a
good connection with my mom, so.Amazing how that's fine.
I hear that story. That's cool.
Hey, in the essence of time, Paris, let's move forward just a
little bit here. So how long were you at Alderson
brought us and why do you leave and where do you go?
So I was there for from 19 to 23to summer of 23.

(01:37:24):
Yeah, I have to say the summer of 23 because the school ended
up shutting down. Yeah.
You're kind of you're kind of a curse.
I'm finding out. Miami.
I just kidding. I'm just kidding.
I'm just kidding. Yeah, the school end up shutting
down. We found out probably a week
before football moved in. Any.
Any. Like when you look back now,
like indicators like oh. Boy, I mean, you could see some,

(01:37:46):
but also in the in the sport world, you know, we didn't see
much of that at all. Like it was like, yes, but also
no. But yeah, so that that kind of
happened. Absolutely sad.
Sports. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it was a sad time. I mean, it's one thing and I'm
not sure what's worse, to be honest with you.
When a program gets cut or a school closes down, the school

(01:38:10):
closing down has to be worse because it affects more people.
Even though, you know, my focus is on tracks.
I'm always concerned about my track people and coaches.
But I mean, I mean, who goes through that?
I mean, no one air quotes here, Thank God goes through getting
the program dropped, meaning it does not happen a lot.
I know we love to tell the Chicken Little story that we're
cutting programs left and right.That's just not true, thank

(01:38:31):
goodness. But we do have programs that
cut. I get them taking that down.
Schools closing down just doesn't have, I mean, again, we
hear of one story, one school here and there.
So it does happen, but not againand regularly.
Most people are going to go through their entire career and
their school is not going to close down, right?
That's that has to be a little surreal.
Like what do you mean the schools?
What school closes? What are you talking about?

(01:38:51):
We're closing. That's kind of crazy.
Yeah. So everybody there was, I'm
confused, you know, I'm getting phone calls out the wazoo from
the team and I'm like, what doesthat mean?
I said, hey, I'm going to put y'all on a Zoom call.
So I'm not answering one call ata time.
So I'd actually, I think I did the Zoom call that very next day
after we found out. So it's August 4th, I found out
August 5th, I had the Zoom call.Then I get a random, and I mean

(01:39:18):
super, super random Facebook message by a guy I don't think
I've ever talked to, but I had him on Facebook, Kevin
Patterson. So KP, you know, he had a he had
one of these, one of these Gil talks, you know, so he's.
A podcast alone? That's right.
So he when I talked to he, he randomly sent me a message.

(01:39:40):
I get messages from other coaches, like hell yeah, I see
this person. This person is asking about the
kids. He actually called me about me.
He sent me a message about me. And he said, hey, can I get you
on a phone call tomorrow? I said, yeah, let me do.
I said, let me check my schedule.
I didn't have anything on my schedule except for talking to
the team. And then I got on a call with

(01:40:02):
him. We were talking.
He was like, hey man, I'm sorry to hear all that.
You know, it was just, it was surprising to me that it
happened because he said I saw, did you have one of these guys?
I was, you know, almost at nationals, you know, I saw y'all
at Lee and I was like, oh, y'allat Lee.
And then he was like, you also went to Mount Olive that same
that next day and I was like, how you know, OK, I guess you
can really look this up. So you know we're talking about

(01:40:23):
this. And he's like, hey, you want to
come down here to, you know, he said, you know, I know you're
probably, you know, I don't knowif you are or not, but looking
for a job, you know, I got an opening, you know, you want to
come down here. And I was like, yeah, he said,
what you doing on Thursday? You know, so literally a couple
days, four days, three days later, he's like, you want to
come down? So I said, yeah, I drive down.

(01:40:45):
You know, it wasn't too far. It was a three hour drive, 3 1/2
hour drive, drive down, meet himfor dinner the day before, you
know, we're chatting it up. Then I go to my interview the
next day and I loved it. You know, he brought me around.
I saw a track on campus and I said you don't got to tell me
anything else. You don't need much, Paris.
I love this. You don't got to tell me
anything else. I already did my research on the

(01:41:07):
team. I saw who was on the team.
I saw, well, at least who was onthe team that year prior, and I
was like, this seems amazing, you know, So going through that,
you know, before I left after our interview, I looked and I
said, I ain't leaving it until, you know, you let me sign
something. And he was like, Oh no, I'm
offering you the job, but I can't do anything right.

(01:41:30):
Now, yeah, I don't have anythingto sign.
I'm not HR. Yeah, yeah.
So I was like, I was like, OK, so I leave.
I go back home, you know, I let my roommate know, you know, and
my roommate was the women's basketball coach at the time and
me and him, you know, we went tocollege together.
We went to office and brothers together.
So I'm letting him know. I was like, hey, I think I
offered a job at LR. He was like, dude, LR is a

(01:41:51):
goldmine. And I was like, and he's a big
sports junk. He knows you asked him any
school, he knows it. He knows the history behind it.
So you know, me and him talking and he was like, that's an
amazing place. So the time goes on.
I ended up coming to LR and oncemy feet got set here, I was
working. They went off, you know?

(01:42:13):
So I'm working, I'm not really doing anything else.
I'm not exploring the campus, I'm not exploring the town.
I'm working and I'm enjoying it though, you know, it's not like
I'm working and hating it. I'm working.
I'm enjoying every second. I was able to watch.
Well, I watched it online because I didn't go to nationals
indoor. I was able to watch online, you

(01:42:33):
know, you know, Alexis Brown win, you know, a national
championship couple of and I waslike, look at that.
And this girl, I see her every single day.
I might not coach her directly, but I see her every single.
I'll talk to her every day, you know, and then Fast forward, we
get to outdoor. We got people qualify for
nationals. You know, multiple people

(01:42:54):
qualify for nationals and I havemy first, a couple people that
qualify that are in and I was like, shoot, I've coached
somebody that qualified. I I've qualified myself, but I
just didn't make it for only athlete that I coached that
qualified. He didn't make it.
Now I got these athletes that made it.
So that's cool. You know, it's like I'm seeing
everything. I'm happy.
I'm super happy. So then we get a nationals.

(01:43:17):
I have a, you know, a podium finisher in foreign hurdles.
I have somebody just missed the podium in the in the decathlon
and then my 100 hurdler, she just missed it as well.
She didn't run much of the year,you know, and made it to
national. So then also I saw three or two
national championships that day as well.

(01:43:38):
And how many years have you beenat LR now?
This is my second year and I'm getting into that part.
OK, keep going, keep going. Keep.
Going so this summer happens andKevin, you know, he let us know.
It's like, hey, you know, I'm you know, he came to campus and
he let us know like, hey, I tookthis job at Central Missouri.

(01:43:58):
Then he looked at me as like Paris.
I'm telling them to, you know, you're the only person that is
for the job. He said.
You've done what you need to do.You've been a head coach before.
You got thrown into the fire as a head coach, and you did well,
you know, you can recruit, You can do all these things.
And, you know, he's talking to me about it and he's talking me
up, you know, talking me up to myself.
And I'm like, and you don't needto make my head any bigger.
He's like, yeah. That's right.

(01:44:19):
You're a genius, you know. So, so our athletic director at
the time, she, you know, still took me through the interview
process and then promoted me to interim head coach.
So for me now it's hey, we need a distance coach.
Hey, we need a throws coach. Hey, we need a person to replace

(01:44:39):
Coach Patterson. So we, I had to hire three
people. So one of which I already knew
who I was going to, you know, bring in.
I called again, I called my, my handy dandy who I'm going to
call Coach Graves. I called him and was like, Hey,
do you have a thrower that just graduated that wants to be Aga,
get into the profession and kindof work through some things and

(01:45:02):
then also stay in North Carolinaand work with me.
He was like, yeah, I might have somebody.
So he actually, he couldn't findexactly who.
So he called Coach Potter, that's also there.
And Coach Potter's the throws coach.
He sent me. Podcast alone.
Yeah, that's right. That's right.
And he sent me the guy. So you get Dorian Tober that

(01:45:23):
comes in just fresh grad. And I was like, hey, you know,
I'm talking to him like, hey, let's, let's make this work.
And then there's two others thatI hired, one of which who's been
coaching for a while, actually went to school with one of my
sisters, but didn't know. He went to school with one of my
sisters and I didn't know until later.
And then a guy that I competed against in college, you know, I

(01:45:47):
hired him as our quarter mile coach pretty much.
So now we have a full staff. We're going through everything
we need to go through and you know, just kicking it through
the season, you know, indoor, wesaw a very successful indoor and
you know, we've seen national champion and national records.

(01:46:08):
Being broken. I saw you there.
You know, in this outdoor season, we've been, I mean,
we've been having a, we've been having a time.
How I say that? Yeah, you're doing time, doing
good brings us to today. So again, brings us back to
today. And so for the next, you know,
5-10 minutes here, Paris. And first of all, pause.

(01:46:30):
I don't want to diminish. You're doing a great job.
You know, when you became the interim, I think I was, I don't
know if I was the first person, I won't make that claim, but I
know I immediately reached out was like, hey, all right, so now
what do we do to erase the interim tag?
You are probably, I want to say you probably might have been
number. You were the top three people.
Yeah, this is always like me. Cool, because intern to me is

(01:46:52):
it's flu. There's not like I can't build
roots with interns. I'm always like, well, get one
way or the other, get rid of theintern tag, meaning, you know,
become the head coach. Like how do we make that happen
or go somewhere else like you can't it's just that that's the
flu. I would never sign with a coach
who was an intern tag personally, personally, because
I'm like, well, you may not be here like I and you understand
that you know, you can't tell meyou're gonna be here.

(01:47:12):
You know what I'm saying? So it's like all right, so how
do we bust butt and and prove that you're the guy?
You should be the head coach, not the intern.
So so I appreciate that and justdon't want to gloss over because
I'm speeding up here just a little bit, a good of a job
you've done and just really appreciate that.
And and we get kind of a little bit of insight to that on the
other side of Kevin Patterson's side of the whole thing too.
And if you're interested in that, you got to go listen to

(01:47:34):
his episode. What I'm interested to talk here
to the last few minutes here. Paris.
So I have this guy and I'm not going to call out names, but
I've got a guy who, you know, follows me on Twitter Creek.
I mean, like track nerd, you know, in all the positive ways,
and specifically HBCU track nerd.
And, you know, there's been a couple of things.

(01:47:55):
I'm a very positive person. So I love when people are
positive and positive about track and field and things like
that. So, you know, he'll, he'll tell
me like, oh, do you see so and so at Alabama State and like,
yeah, man, they do a great job, you know, blah, blah, blah.
They do good, you know, and so and so at this university, I'm
like, Oh yeah, that's so cool. You know, it's great to see
that. And he's made a couple of
comments and and and I'm just using him as an example because
other people have inadvertently or advert or advert or on

(01:48:19):
purpose have made this guy. I went to school in Alabama,
bro, these big, big vocabulary words for me here.
But he's made a comment like, Oh, such and such is running
real well. Boy, I wish he would transfer to
Howard with DO and how good would he get?
Or I wish he would transfer to Alan at NCA and T and and see

(01:48:40):
how good he would be. And I'm like, and, and you know,
Dio and Alan, good friends love those guys.
I mean, come on, I'm a come on, we're hurdlers.
They're in our they're, they're us, right.
It's it's a joke for me to call myself a hurdler so terrible.
But I but I, I identify as a hurdler.
I love the hurdles. It's the best event in the
world. And so this is not shade at Dio
and Alan. It what I don't think that

(01:49:01):
person understands is they're throwing shade at their at that
person's current coach. It's like, wait, that that kid
runs so fast or jumps so far, whatever the event is, that
coach has done that, whatever school they're at.
What do you mean go to DO? And he'll be like, you're
throwing shade on that coat. What are you talking about?
And maybe they will, I don't know, but they certainly don't
seem to be needing to leave. They're they're running stupid

(01:49:23):
fast like they're qualified for nationals.
What do you mean they should go somewhere else?
And and that's amongst the HBCU world.
We have the same in society thought process a lot with D1
versus D2 and inside of D1 even,you know, a kid runs fast at,
you know, my alma mater, Troy University.
It's like, well, that imagine what that kid could run if they

(01:49:45):
went to LSU or something. It's like, what do you mean?
Maybe slower, by the way? And that's not cheated tennis.
He's a great coach, but it's like what what do you meet?
Like they're they're they're being successful exactly where
they're at. Why in the world is the
automatic thought well, gosh, ifthey were at a big school and so
at a school, I'm always interested in these schools.
Like for you, you're at the division two school doing a

(01:50:05):
great job killing it. Like I said, national, I mean
really fast. Like how do we like what's your
I'm not sure really what the question I want to ask here,
Paris. It's more of a statement of
like, they're doing a great job,but I just don't understand why
people will say that, like with this whole roster spots and
stuff that oh, this is going to limit people's ability, their

(01:50:28):
opportunities. And I'm like, OK, so if a kid
grew up in Louisiana and always dreamed of going to LSU, maybe
they can't go to LSU. Now they're running 10/20, 10:30
and that's not good enough on a 45 man roster.
I don't know if that's actually going to be true.
Actually, they'd be a 35 becausethey're in SEC, right?
That doesn't limit that person'spotential.
They can go to your school, theygo to Lenore Ryan.
They've got a great coach at Lenore Ryan like that.

(01:50:50):
That's what I mean. It's like you're going to take a
10/30, 10:20 kid. You know what I'm saying?
Like, yeah, right, That's right.I just don't understand.
It's like, man, we have all these great coaches in junior
college, NAIAD, 3D2, non power 5, power 4 Division One.
We're not limiting opportunities.
You have an opportunity for kidsright there at LR.

(01:51:10):
Like, how do you? So I don't really have a
question here. Parents, this is more of a
conversation. This is the awkward part of the
podcast, everybody. I'm wondering, how do you like
sitting in your seat? How do you deal with that stuff?
How do you recruit? How do you leave some
distractions out? How do you fight poachers?
I don't know if that's the right.
That's not a great term because I'm calling a coach a poacher if

(01:51:32):
I say that. So I don't want to call it that.
How do you just handle all this stuff in today's NCAA world?
Well, it's, it's, it is a, like you said, it's a, it's a tough
thing and it's a, it's a challenge here and there.
But also at the same time it's, you know, it's really just, it

(01:51:53):
lets you know that you're doing something well.
Right. That's a great.
Point that's a that that's the one thing I like to always look
at is, you know, when somebody'sa lot of people, a lot of times
when people are doing well, they, you know, a lot of other
people will want to have that same success with the same
person. And I mean, I know from
experience that hey, just because this person's running
fast at this place doesn't mean if I get them, they're going to

(01:52:15):
run fast with me. You know, look at the training.
Training is always, always a bigthing for everybody.
But also just seeing that, you know, people have eyes on, you
know, the program saying, Oh, well, I see this person's
running this there and, you know, and then whenever I
recruit, it's more of a, hey, this person came here, they

(01:52:36):
weren't running this, they're running these times.
This is where they're at, you know, so that that's really what
I do. I mean, recruiting wise, I try
to do that, but you know, I knowthat just like Once Upon a time,
I was doing the same thing whereI was like, oh, D1, I want to go
there. You know, a lot of kids do the
same thing. And you know, like, like you was
talking about the roster limits and, and all that coming on and

(01:52:59):
it's it's going to be it's it's going to be big for a lot of.
Have you seen anything today? It's we're recording this in May
of 2025. Have you seen anything today?
Because I, I, I'm such a believer that all the best
coaches are not in power for andwhat I mean by that, they're
great coaches. Again, I, you know, I love and

(01:53:19):
know all of those guys and gals,right?
But what I'm saying is there areamazing coaches in D3, a vast
majority. There are a lot of good coaches
in D3D2 NEIA Junior College. And so like I just like I don't,
I don't think a kid is going to be harmed because they can't
walk on or get book scholarship at Mississippi State or Alabama
or Florida. They can still go to Emory

(01:53:42):
Riddle, Emory LR. Like there's great coaches each
one of those places. Have you seen today because we
they've done some roster cuts even though we don't have a
finalization on this whole houseversus NCAA thing.
There have been roster cuts. So the, the transfer portal is
boom. People thought the transfer
portal was big last year and theyear before.
I mean, it's just a big blimp. There's a ton of kids in there,

(01:54:03):
right? Have you started seeing, I hate
to call it the trickle down effect, but you know what I'm
saying when I say that? Have you started seeing like, oh
man, I have a little bit better kids interested in US?
Yeah, I have. I mean, and, and then also
whenever you look, I mean, like you said, it's may whenever you
look at the, the, the top 10 list in, you know, in on T

(01:54:25):
first, you know, you look at it,you're like, wow, you know, D2
was not like this three years ago, four years ago.
And and that's a, and it's a, it's a thing from 1.
You know, some of those kids that are at those division ones
that are coming down to Division2 or some of those D3 kids that
are coming up, some of those NAIkids coming over to D2.
But also it's from just the coaching, you know, in the, you

(01:54:47):
know, in D2, you know, it's likeyou say, there's a bunch of
great coaches in D2, you know, and it's.
Go look at nationals, that'll prove it right there.
And it's, it's one thing that, you know, as a, as a Division 2
coach, you know, and I've been at, you know, 2 schools where
I've been like actually on the staff that I can say, you know,
I've, I've had to say it a bunchof times.
The kids like you don't have to just go one place because even

(01:55:10):
some of those Division One schools and those coaches will
tell you, hey, go here because you can get something from
there. But also it's it doesn't suck.
It's not like it sucks. You know, I, I don't think
there's a single division that you can say, Oh, that sucks.
So that's not good. I mean, shoot, we just had a you
just had I think it was last week the D3 kid and and long and

(01:55:32):
wait long job. Yeah, he's the nation.
Or at least. Yeah, he led the nation for He
led it for a week. I'll give him that for the week.
You know what, I appreciate whatI'm here for you.
So we've been having this conversation a lot on the
podcast, right? Because it's the, you know, it's
kind of current events, if you will, What I don't hear you
saying, and I appreciate you forthis.
Like this, this just shows me more character and leadership

(01:55:52):
and maybe optimism. I'm not here.
And you say, yeah, you know what, Mike, it sucks.
People are coming and getting our best kids and by it's
happening all the time. We're basically just a a junior
college now at this point, blah,blah, blah, blah.
Because you know, I've had some coaches remark that to me and,
you know, social media and things like that.
And I'm like, well, that can't be true.
Because to your point about how good D2 is, go look at the

(01:56:13):
national championship. It's still it's better every
year. And I see plenty of seniors on
that group. There are plenty of kids that
ran as stupid fast as a sophomore junior that air quotes
here could have transferred likeADAD.
One school would have taken themno brainer and they they stayed
at LR and other, you know, in this case D2 schools, you know

(01:56:33):
what I'm saying, grand valleys, etcetera.
So it's not happening all the time.
I just think we like to, we liketo talk about the negative a
lot. And so it does happen.
And a high profile kid leaves, it's always like, yeah, that's
what happens. Those those power for schools,
they just come and put. And it's like now that doesn't
happen all the time. It happens, but does not happen

(01:56:54):
all the time. And you still have the ability.
You can only control what you control.
So you can you can only control what's in front of you at LR.
So I just appreciate your attitude of like, yeah, you know
what, continue recruiting and continue coaching and chips will
fall where they may, but we're going to be fast at those
falling chips, if you will. Yeah.
And it's and it's it's a thing that you got to kind of get with
the times kind of thing. You know it, it's the transport

(01:57:16):
is a thing now. So like I said earlier, it
wasn't a thing when I was when Iwas in school and I, and it's
not like I'm, you know, I'm super, oh, I'm, I'm 29, right.
And transporter was not a thing then, you know, if you wanted to
transfer it as a whole, another process that you had to go
through. But nowadays you can get in a
transporter, but a lot of kids just they, they either stay for

(01:57:38):
the school, stay at the school. Most kids will stay at school
for their coach or, you know, I mean, I, it's not rare, but it's
more often than not that you'll see a kid stay at a school for
their coaches or, you know, it'snot many times that you will
see. Oh yeah, I'm standing for the

(01:57:58):
school. Yeah, it's still the minority
that transfers, meaning it's notover 50% of kids are
transferring. This is still a, you know, a.
Real minuscule. Maybe.
Maybe not minuscule, Yeah, because maybe not this small.
Maybe, you know, now it's this big, but it's still not like I,
I wish I actually knew the numbers.
Like, is it 30 percent, 25 percent, 20%?

(01:58:18):
Like, you know, and I'm very, you know, there's no one bigger
pro coach than than me, But I'm also very pro athlete in the
sense of like, man, if they wantto transfer because there's a
million reasons why they transfer and not all of them are
because it's a big name school. It could be closer to home.
I need more financial aid. I don't know.
It doesn't matter. I've had a bad experience at the

(01:58:38):
school, not because of the school, because of their student
body and things like that. So let them transfer.
I just don't think you should bepunished for that.
That's, that's my key where, where you are, you know, if you,
if all your kids transfer out this year and it's like, well,
we just went to last in conference, they're going to
come to you and be like, well, parents, what the heck.
And it's like, well, bro, they all left.
I can't control that. That's where you should.
I don't feel like a coach shouldbe punished for for that aspect

(01:59:01):
of it either. Yeah, and and I'm a big I'm a
big advocate. Like like you said, I'm a I'm a
I'm a pro, I'm a pro athlete person.
So if you if you're especially like, depending on the reason
behind it, you know, hey, coach,I want to leave for XYZ.
This is that a third. Like I'm not going to be upset
at somebody for, you know, wanting to do that.
You know, Hey, you did your timeat the school and this is the

(01:59:23):
reasoning behind wanting to leave.
I'm not going to I'm not going to push you out the door, but
also I'm not going to say, Oh, you can't leave.
You know, I'm not I'm not going to do any of those things.
So I'm I'm more so want to I want to see people succeed.
You know, I tell all my athletesthat all the time.
You know, I tell them when they won, hey, I want to see, see, I
want to see you graduate from here 4 years or two or one,
whatever, whenever you come in. But if it's not, if here is not

(01:59:47):
the place for you, right? I'm not going to sit there and
say. You know, you know, that's funny
Paris, because I think every coach or at least 99.9%, if I
said, hey, do you do it for the kids?
Would say, yeah, I do it for thekids.
That's why I coach. I love helping young people, you
know, go through school and get better athletically and things
like that. And then, you know, a kid will
say, well, I need to transfer. I want to transfer because I
think that'll be a better situation for me.

(02:00:08):
It's like, well, wait a minute, I've I've poured so much into
you. It's like, oh, I thought it was
for the, the kids. Coach what?
Like no matter what, no matter if you agree or disagree with
their decision. You should be helping like so.
I appreciate you living out that.
Yeah, it's for the kids, man. Again, I'd rather you be here in
LR and graduate here. But, you know, if this is not
the right place, we'll be OK. Well, I'm not going to get in
your way. Yeah, I appreciate that.

(02:00:29):
All right, Paris, take us out here in the last couple minutes
as we wrap up. You know, you've got.
We're still got outdoors in front of us when we're recording
this. It's literally next week.
I'm already my plane tickets booked.
I'm ready, buddy. I know yours is, too.
I'm excited. I like Pablo.
I think it's a cool, cool stadium that they have for
nationals there. So I'm excited to go back there.

(02:00:50):
But as you look long term, you know, I know we're you still got
to finish out the 25 season, butas you start looking at
26273035, you start just kind oflooking at the future.
What's got you excited about LR,about your career?
What's what's you know, you're positive, dude.
That's why I love you but love about you.
What's got you excited here in the near future?
Well, I mean, the recruiting class that we got coming in, you

(02:01:12):
know, it's it's it's one that I'm I'm very excited about.
I'm very excited about it. But then also outside of just
the recruiting class, just the people that we have coming back,
right, You know, a lot of growththis year.
So I'm, you know, even the one we got a bunch that have made
nationals right now, they're going to that they're, you know,

(02:01:33):
we just actually had a practice at noon today and going from
them to, you know, when they come back next year, it's like
I'm, I'm super excited for it. And then the people that we, the
pieces that we have coming in next year, it's only going to,
you know, help elevate where theprogram is.
Like I said, I mentioned Kevin Patterson, he started something
special and I told him the one thing that I, if I do anything,

(02:01:54):
I'm going to keep what he had going and try to elevate it just
a 1% more. You know, let's try to do 10%
more, but you know, I'm going totry to elevate what he has done
already because he, he pretty much found that base and I'm
just trying to, you know, execute whatever that was and
keep going forward. So that's.
Cool, Well, I'm excited for you,man.
You know, you're one of the people I really like enjoy

(02:02:17):
seeing and having conversations and just kind of, you know,
shooting the crap about what's going on and the track meeting
you get. You guys just do a fantastic job
there. You and all of D2 it's that's
why I just keep beating the hornwhen people talk about these
caps are going to limit opportunities and I'm just like
that. Just if you believe that then

(02:02:39):
you are putting down the mid majors of DV1D2D3 like you're
saying only these what is it 68 schools have have the right
coaches. I mean, that's ludicrous,
ludicrous, especially when you go and look, go look at the last
Olympics, many, many, many Olympians not from their
schools, many, many Olympians from D2D3, NAIA, junior college,

(02:03:03):
etcetera. So I will just continue to
defend and love on and advocate for coaches of all levels
because there's some bangers. A lot of you guys are in gals
are just bangers, high school coaches, club coaches, just
quite amazing what the level of,of coaching in America is for
track and field right now. And you're, you're, you're a
part of that pair. So I'm just so grateful, man, So

(02:03:24):
grateful for your time today. I know it was a chill day and so
hopefully this hopefully didn't stress you out.
You were a cool con. You're a Q con everybody, but
it's really, really grateful foryou and being here again.
Most expensive thing you can give me is your time.
And you know, like I said, you're going to nationals next
week. So you're, you're busy.
You're, you're watching the, theInternet, the Teefers and
everything. I I get it.
And so I'm just so grateful for you, man, and really, really

(02:03:47):
appreciate you being here today.And I appreciate you and thank
you for having me on. Like you said before, I've been
asking for this for a while. I've been asking for it for a
while. Yeah, well, I'm grateful for
you, man, and we'll continue this train.
There's a lot of people in your circle that are gonna be on this
podcast one day, but I think your story is super unique.

(02:04:08):
And I think people will gain something like there's something
to learn from your story that's going to help someone that's
listening right now. Or, you know, this is Evergreen,
right? Someone's going to listen to
this in 20-30 right now and they're going to gain something
from this and it's going to helpthem.
And that's, that's how legacy isbuilt.
And I think that's what you're, that's what you're building, my
friend. Absolutely.
Awesome man. Well, Paris, thank you again for
being here today. You guys and gals, thank you

(02:04:29):
again so much again, it just humbles me.
You know, we talked about being humble earlier.
Just humbles me that you continue to press play day after
day now because it's a daily podcast.
And so I'm just so grateful for you being here today.
We're going to continue this train rolling.
Please tune in tomorrow, you know, Tuesday through Sunday.
We do the Gill 1918 project. Please, please, please.
This is by coaches for coaches. So hit me up to be on the Gill

(02:04:52):
1918 project. Your voice matters.
We've had some just awesome, awesome, awesome 10 minute to 30
minute podcast on the Yelling Tunisian project.
It's amazing and it's going to really help you to continue
honing your voice, honing your thoughts, your process of
coaching and culture and recruiting and those kind of
topics. Again, we're just creating the

(02:05:12):
Ted talks of the track and fieldpodcast world.
And so I just want I want you tobe involved.
So hit me up on DM, Twitter, e-mail, text, smoke signals, you
know, Paris, ask him, he's got my number.
Whatever. Just get a hold of me and let's
let's work that out for you. So thanks again for being here.
Join us next week and tomorrow and we'll do it all over again.
Thanks guys. The goals to appreciate the

(02:05:37):
coach, the ones that point people most every season needs a
voice of reason speaking the growth you got to prep before
you carry the load. Ice coffee to the soul.
For those of us who stay on the go proper handoff to stay in the
zone which you packing for the road.
There's more than one way to go.Taking notes that's paying
you're told it ain't practice. It's your purpose.
Saint Clair. It can't happen until you listen

(02:05:57):
with both is you can't mentor without a mentor his of
experience. You can reinvent those years.
Every plan's got to stand and deliver to and the price
sacrifice can you give up you. It's a choice and a fight, not a
win or lose. It's not a ploy boy device.
Y'all can make more moves. It's not about how to, it's all
about why you don't know till you know who you are inside

(02:06:18):
6,000,000. Waste of time, choose none.
So y'all cross finish line. The work ain't done so we learn
from the experts but y'all got to put in the network.
Your athletics is the network. It's all about connections put
together for the profession to where every track coach could be
the blessing.

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